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The worst book marketing ever
S1B2 · From Darkness Unto Light (bonus)
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Standard of Truth · Season 1 · Bonus 2 · 20:02

From Darkness Unto Light (bonus)

Gerrit plugs his book on the Book of Mormon translation by explaining you could just listen to the podcast instead.

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The question ·

Listeners have asked about Gerrit and Michael MacKay's book, From Darkness Unto Light: Joseph Smith's Translation and the Publication of the Book of Mormon, so what's in it beyond the two-part translation episode?

Richard, citing listener interest and questions

Richard asks Gerrit about From Darkness Unto Light, the book he co-wrote with Michael MacKay on the translation and publication of the Book of Mormon. Gerrit shares stories from it: Lucy Harris offering to pay for the printing and later digging up the yard for the plates, why the 116 pages should be called stolen rather than lost, and why Martin Harris likely saw Samuel Mitchill, an authority on ancient American peoples, before Charles Anthon, who had a business reason to want Native American stories. Richard's favorite detail, that they had to borrow money for the wood to build the plates' box, leads Gerrit into the physical reality of the plates and why the alternative explanations don't hold up.

Who comes upJoseph SmithMartin HarrisLucy HarrisLucy Mack SmithCharles AnthonSamuel MitchillJonathan HadleyIsaac HaleJosiah StowellOliver CowderyHyrum SmithE. B. GrandinRichard BushmanDallin H. OaksMichael MacKay
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The worst book marketing ever

Gerrit admits the two-part translation episode covered basically the whole book, and Richard suggests the Gospel Topics Essay instead.

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Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, where we explore the early days of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and gain rare historical insights into how a young farm boy was able to establish a new church and grow it by way of visions, manifestations and miracles.
Richard Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. This is the bonus episode. We've gotten some interest and some questions as it relates to the book that Gerrit and his co-author Michael McKay wrote, From Darkness Unto Light, Joseph Smith's Translation and the Publication of the Book of Mormon. And so I wanted to ask Gerrit a couple of questions about the book specifically to try to understand a little bit more some of the things that are in it. We just did a two-part podcast where we talked about the translation of the plates, and you were able to hit a lot of things.
Gerrit Yeah, basically the entire book. The entire book.
Richard So you don't need to buy it.
Gerrit It's really not a way of like... Yeah, you could buy the book and read it, or you could just listen to the podcast. You can see how this is not the best marketing, but yeah.
Richard Yeah, absolutely. Or you could just go to the Gospel Topics Essay and not listen to this podcast.
Gerrit Yeah, really. I mean, we already came up with the fact that if you just read that New Era article, we already know everything. So, I mean, there's a lot of good stuff in the book though as a way of having the sources in front of you. And that's, I think the reason why Mike and I wrote it was to help describe a historical narrative of the events that surrounded the translation, you know. So there are things in there that you get from these various other sources like, you know, I think everybody has an idea that Lucy Harris is not a fan of Joseph Smith and the Gold Plates. But a lot of people don't know is that Lucy Harris, this is Martin Harris' wife, that she actually initially, when they first talked to her about it, actually offers to pay for the printing of the book herself with money she has squirreled away rather than Martin. Martin's not even there yet. But when they refuse to show her the plates, I mean, I mean, there's, this is from Lucy Mac Smith's book.
Gerrit There's two Lucy's. It's actually very unfortunate for early Latter-day Saint history that there's two women that are very prominent in this early story and they're both named Lucy. And so you end up having to say Lucy Harris and Lucy Smith. Anyway, Lucy Smith, says that when Martin and Lucy Harris come down to Harmony, that Lucy Harris is so desperate to try to find the plates on her own because, you know, Joseph can't show them to her, that she starts digging up the yard everywhere around Joseph's house to try to find them. I mean, it's a pretty interesting story. So, you know, that kind of narrative helps bring this to light at the same time as we describe the mechanics of translation. I mean, we talk about in the book, all about the stolen 116 pages. I mean, we still use the term lost manuscript because that's what everyone else uses. But the reality is these things are stolen. I mean, it's really weird that we call them lost. In fact, I mean, I was on Hank Smith and John Bytheway's podcast talking about it.
Gerrit I'm like, this is the weirdest thing ever, right? We know they were stolen. We know because God tells Joseph in Doctrine and Covenants section 10 that they were stolen. And yet we still call them the lost 116 pages, like Martin Harris put them down in an airport and then got up to catch his flight without taking them with him. I mean, if I walked outside right now and my car wasn't in my garage where I parked it, I would not say I just lost my car. It's lost. Where is it? I know I have a car. Someone has stolen my car, right? And that's what happens with the pages. We talk all about that. I mean, again, the reality is that there are all kinds of theories about what happens to those pages, but we don't really know. And in this case, the constant effort to blame Lucy Harris, you know, which we know she's in opposition. We know she's digging up the yard looking for gold plates. We know that she's deliberately antagonistic towards Joseph about it.
Gerrit But the Lord in Doctrine and Covenants section 10 says that it is men, a group of men who have taken those pages and plan to alter them and to change them. There's another really interesting aspect of the book that I think people might enjoy, and that is the description of Martin Harris taking those characters to the East. I mean, we have our traditional story that's in Joseph Smith history, so it's in Our Pro of Great Price. And even that story says that it comes from Martin Harris. Well, one thing that was really hard to figure out as we were writing the book was, why in the world do they go to Charles Anthon? I mean, Charles Anthon, I mean, this is, you know, I don't mean any disrespect to my co-host, but Charles Anthon is an adjunct professor.
Richard Yeah, how could you possibly mean any disrespect?
Gerrit Well, I'm just saying. Look, I mean, that's how, you know, obviously, there might be people listening to this that are also adjunct professors. I was an adjunct professor as well for 10 years. I understand what it's like to be an adjunct professor.
Richard No, no, it's fine.
Gerrit No, now I'm trying to dig out of the hole. I didn't mean to throw Richard into, but, you know, he's an adjunct professor at the University of Utah, but he teaches graduate classes. I mean, it's kind of underselling it there. But anyway, it's weird that they go to Charles Anthon, and it's one of those inexplicable things from our history. I mean, the reason why is Charles Anthon, you know, is not an Egyptologist. Okay, Charles Anthon is a classicist. Charles Anthon, you know, if you want to if you want to study, you know, Homer's Iliad in Greek, I guess you can, you know, he's the person you go visit is Charles Anthon. Right. But he's done nothing on anything surrounding this. And so it just didn't really make any sense. Now, in our second, in the part two of our podcast, we talked about with the Jonathan Hadley source where he talks about and mentioned specifically that they go to Samuel Mitchell.
Gerrit Samuel Mitchell is a full professor, and he's actually a really big deal. He is considered America's foremost authority on what you would think is Egyptology, right? Because they're going to go get these characters translated. No. Remember, the only reason why you know that the Book of Mormon is written in Reformed Egyptian is the Book of Mormon tells you that. So you actually don't know the Book of Mormon is written in Reformed Egyptian until as the book is translated, it says we wrote in Reformed Egyptian. We would have written in Hebrew if the plates have been sufficiently large, but the Hebrew has been altered by us also. I mean, you know, the whole thing. Well, Joseph hasn't translated any of it yet. The angel has said to him that this record contains an account of the ancient inhabitants of this continent and the source from once they sprang. So all Joseph has is that information from the angel.
Gerrit And what has the angel told him? This is a record of ancient Americans. So why do they go to Samuel Mitchell? Well, Samuel Mitchell just so happens to be America's foremost authority on ancient, Native American civilizations. That makes a lot more sense that that's the reason why they go to him. Well, and it seems like that the order is actually reversed, that they go to Samuel Mitchell first, because he's the authority on ancient American languages that Martin Harris goes to him first. Samuel Mitchell, you know, whatever he says to him, he apparently sends them off to Charles Anthem. Well, why did Charles Anthem, this adjunct professor of Greek and Latin, you know, classics, you know, Charles Anthem might very well have said to Martin Harris, oh, these characters are Assyrian and they're, you know, Chaldaic. One has no idea how Charles Anthem would know that since that's not what he's trained in, which I like to ascribe to the fact that all professors claim to know more than they've actually been taught.
Gerrit So, you know, again, now I'm including both adjunct professors and other professors all claim to have more information than they know. No question. At any rate, one of the things that was really cool, some of this has come up, research has come out of Richard Bushman's work, who wrote the foreword to the book From Darkness Unto Light, and that is that Charles Anthem was actually engaged in a business proposition with a guy in England who was trying to publish, you know, dime store novels, essentially, of accounts of Native Americans. And he actually writes to Charles Anthem and tells him to send me any stories you can get ahold of, true or not, they will sell. And suddenly it starts to make more sense why it is that Charles Anthem wants to get ahold of that record. Martin Harris comes and tells him, here is a record of these ancient inhabitants of America.
Gerrit And Charles Anthem sees some dollar signs and says, this is exactly what my buddy's looking for in England. Bring it to me. And then, you know, he doesn't know what the gold plates are and anything like that. He just thinks this is a story of Native Americans and maybe I can profit off it. That paints university professors in a kind of light where we're so poor, we're willing to do anything for money. And yet, at the same time, also true. So at any rate, there's some good stories in that. Another aspect of the book that I think is really helpful is aside from obviously all the accounts of translation is the account of the publication of the Book of Mormon, which we talked a little bit about in those podcasts. But I mean, the attempt to get it to get it published is a really big deal and something that, you know, President Oaks actually mentioned in conference a few years ago, actually siding to the book, in fact, of the faith that it took Joseph Smith to have to go through all of the difficulties of trying to get it published to finally have Grandin publish it.
Gerrit It was not just a foregone conclusion. It was something that required Joseph and Martin both to continue to persevere even after the translation is done. So I mean, I think there's some great anecdotes in there. There's some great stories, but it's a way of really coming to know this era and the translation in a way that you wouldn't be able to know otherwise. And I think that's for lack of any other reason, that's a good reason to take a look at the book.
Richard No, those are great. I would love, I don't know why this is my favorite story in the book. It doesn't necessarily even make sense that it's my favorite, but it is. And it relates to...
Gerrit That's because you're an adjunct professor.
Richard That's correct. That's right. I don't understand the difficult...
Gerrit In a few years. Oh, please let me know. For those of you who don't know, this is kind of a mockery of academia in that sense. But I mean, the tier differences, but I'm...
Richard Yes, it is.
Gerrit But yeah, I am mocking Richard.
Richard So it's this idea of Joseph has something. He has to have something. People are hefting something and whether it's covered, it's in a box, it's whatever it is. And there's lots of different ideas as to what this possibly could be. Certainly isn't gold plates. Certainly couldn't be that, obviously. Certainly not gold plates that he found after an angel showed him where they were, right? But this idea maybe he fashioned tin or whatever it is. But it's a small or just short relative story, but this idea of even how he was able to get the wood to build the box and how eventually you're like, well, I mean, you get to a certain point where, how did he get it?
Gerrit Well, certainly the book's going to explain the reactions of some people and the reality of those plates. I mean, part of the problem of Joseph Smith, and this is, this is what we've talked about in previous podcasts, is, you know, that Joseph Smith has something. He has plates. You can't simply chalk, chalk up Joseph Smith to, Oh, I'm sure he thought he had add visions. I mean, like we did in a previous podcast talking about Joseph Smith and someone's claim, well, maybe, maybe he had psychedelic mushrooms he was using. Okay. Well, maybe he did. And that did those mushrooms also turn into 70 pounds of gold plates? Apparently not. Right. So the reality is he has plates and it's not just him who sees them and feels them. It is many other people who do. And so even Isaac Hale, who is writing an antagonistic affidavit, who's writing because he despises his son-in-law, even Isaac Hale talks about lifting the box the plates are in.
Gerrit And so the reality of the plates and the witnesses of the plates, one of the other witnesses we mentioned in the book of the plates is actually Josiah Stoll, who says that when Joseph is handing the plates through the window, that the covering that is over them kind of gets caught up and peeled off a little bit. And Josiah Stoll sees the side of the plates. So there's some other really cool anecdotes in there. But yet, you know, it doesn't directly address the various ways that people have tried to dismiss Joseph Smith's ownership of plates. But it certainly addresses, you know, the fact that he has them. I mean, Martin Harris is going to say, for instance, that when he picked up the box because he wasn't allowed to see the plates. I know we think of him as one of the Three Witnesses. That's a lot further down the road that when he lifts the box early on, he can hear the metal inside and he can feel the weight of it. And that is one of the things that convinces him. This must really be from God because he knows how poor the Smiths are.
Gerrit And he knows any amount of metal of any kind of metal. If this is the cheapest tin that exists, the Smiths can't afford 70 pounds of metal. So there must be something real in this book.
Richard And he can't afford any kind of metal because how do they get the wood to build the box?
Gerrit They have to borrow money to get the...
Richard They have to get a loan to buy the wood to build the box.
Gerrit To hide the plates in. Yeah, I mean, even during the time period that Joseph's translating the plates, his parents are going to lose their home. I mean, they're not going to be able to make the payments on it. I mean, understanding these people as real people and in the narrative, as the book goes through, hopefully, that it makes it easier for people to understand translation, the miracle of translation, and that, yes, there's antagonists. There's always been antagonists saying, oh, it's not really from God. Let me give you another explanation. But all of those other explanations run up against a couple of problems. The first is Joseph Smith has something, and no one yet has been able to come up with a really good argument for what it is. Well, maybe he stole a whole bunch of tin and fashioned a bellows and figured out how to become a tin smith and pounded the tin down into sheets and then found a way to tarnish the tin to make the tin look like gold and then found a way to etch the tin to make those etchings that now look like gold to also look like their ancient etchings to the point where you could trick people who've seen gold, like Martin Harris, and fool them to the point that they all think this is from God, and also at the same time fool them into thinking that they're seeing an angel.
Gerrit So apparently you're not only a fraudulent tin smith, you're also really good at the distribution of those psychedelic mushrooms. You're doing all these things at the same time. I mean, the reality is all of those alternative explanations don't actually have evidence. What do they have? They have someone saying, well, I don't want to believe that he actually has gold plates from God. But he has something. So wouldn't it make sense if it actually was a set of copper printing plates that he just found discarded out in the woods? I mean, I guess that's possible. People are just, you know, usually throwing out copper printing plates. Instead of using the very valuable copper in them, they just go and dump them on the top of a mountain. I mean, sure. I mean, when you say, is that a possible thing? Well, sure, it's a possible thing. Do you have any source that suggests that at all? No. Do the people who have worked in printing shops like Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris and Hyrum Smith, do they think that they look like copper printing plates?
Gerrit Do the description of the plates from anyone who sees them say that they look like copper printing plates? No. But that would help me sleep at night if they were right. And that's that's where we're at is that the existence of the gold plates is such a an essential aspect to Joseph Smith's prophetic call because those plates and the witnesses of them represent the hardest thing to dismiss about Joseph Smith's truth claims. You can say all you want that he was smoking peyote before they realized what it was. And that's the reason why he thought he had visions. But he didn't think that he had gold plates, nor did all the other people around him. And so where did they come from? Well, Joseph tells you an angel gives them to you. So, I mean, that's some of the things that will come out to I think that by, you know, part of the reason of writing the book was to help provide people the historical accounts of translation. What witnesses of the translation said they saw or how they understood it.
Gerrit And at the same time, highlighting that those involved think that this is a miracle from God. The people who know the most are the ones who are the most certain that it's a miracle. And I think that's one of the great takeaways from it.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.

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You can see how this is not the best marketing, but yeah.

GerritBanter

Or you could just go to the Gospel Topics Essay and not listen to this podcast.

RichardBanter

I mean, if I walked outside right now and my car wasn't in my garage where I parked it, I would not say I just lost my car.

GerritInsight

Yeah, how could you possibly mean any disrespect?

RichardBanter

which I like to ascribe to the fact that all professors claim to know more than they've actually been taught.

GerritBanter

Okay. Well, maybe he did. And that did those mushrooms also turn into 70 pounds of gold plates?

GerritBanter

those plates and the witnesses of them represent the hardest thing to dismiss about Joseph Smith's truth claims.

GerritInsight

The people who know the most are the ones who are the most certain that it's a miracle.

GerritInsight

More from this episode

Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.

Claim check

What critics say, and what the episode found
The 116 pages were simply lost.
Lucy Harris destroyed the 116 pages.
Joseph's visions came from psychedelic mushrooms or peyote.
The plates were faked tin or discarded copper printing plates.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.

Take it to class

Ready to copy into a lesson or a text

D&C 10 says the 116 pages were taken by men who planned to alter them, so 'stolen' is more accurate than 'lost.'

Martin Harris likely went first to Samuel Mitchill, the leading authority on ancient American peoples, because the angel had said the record was an account of this continent's ancient inhabitants.

The physical reality of the plates, lifted and handled by friends and even by hostile Isaac Hale, is what Gerrit calls the hardest part of Joseph Smith's claims to dismiss.

Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.

Banter bin

The running jokes, for people who skip ahead
Self-sabotaging book plugThe podcast covered the whole book, a New Era article covers everything, so why buy it (1:10, 3:40)?
Adjunct professor jabsGerrit calls Anthon an adjunct, remembers Richard is one, and keeps digging (5:37, 12:01).
Two LucysEarly Church history unhelpfully features two prominent women named Lucy (3:40).
Psychedelic mushroomsGerrit's recurring reply to the drug theory: did the mushrooms also turn into gold plates (13:16, 15:49)?
The fraudulent tin smithAn escalating list of skills Joseph would need for the tin-plates theory (15:49).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

Your question could be next week’s episode
Questions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
General ConferenceGeneral Conference talks that cite a scripture read in this episode.

In General Conference

Talks from the latest General Conference that cite a scripture this episode reads or names on air
October 2026 General Conference · cites D&C 10The Hour of Your Mission Is ComeBishop Sean DouglasBishop Douglas thanks missionaries of every age and urges the rising generation to place full-time missionary service high on their list.

Summaries, themes and lessons for every talk are on What Did They Say?

Go deeperWhere to read more.

Go deeper

Deep dives the episode points toward
The Jonathan Hadley source and the order of Martin Harris's visits to Mitchill and Anthon (5:54).
Charles Anthon's dealings with an English publisher of Native American stories, from Richard Bushman's research (5:54).
The struggle to get the Book of Mormon published by Grandin, which President Oaks cited in conference (5:54).
Every witness account of hefting or glimpsing the plates, including Josiah Stowell's (13:16).
SOT Litner · S1B2.