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A tour, not artifacts
S2B2 · Standard of Truth Tour
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Standard of Truth · Season 2 · Bonus 2 · 41:53

Standard of Truth Tour

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What will the Standard of Truth Church history tour include, and why go see these places in person?

Richard

In this bonus episode, Richard and Gerrit announce their first Standard of Truth Church history tour, set for June 5 to 11, 2023, and walk through the route. Gerrit describes each stop with a story: the new Smith family monument in Topsfield, Joseph's birthplace in Sharon, Vermont, Harmony and the priesthood restoration, Fayette and the voice of the Lord in Father Whitmer's chamber, Palmyra and the Grandin print shop, and Kirtland's Newel K. Whitney store, temple and the John Johnson farm in Hiram. Richard covers deposits, small-town hotels and food, and both share why being at these places feels so sacred, even for a family of converts.

Who comes upJoseph SmithEmma SmithOliver CowderyMartin HarrisJohn the BaptistPeter Whitmer Sr.Isaac HaleNewel K. WhitneySidney RigdonAlvin SmithJohn Burgoyne
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A tour, not artifacts

Richard announces a June 2023 Church history tour as a bonus episode.

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Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, where we explore the early days of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and gain rare historical insights into how a young farm boy was able to establish a new church and grow it by way of visions, manifestations and miracles.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to a bonus episode of the Standard of Truth Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. In this bonus episode, we're gonna talk a little bit about a church history tour that we're gonna be doing next June, in June 5th through the 11th, 2023. And we were gonna talk about it in a regular episode, but when we talk about things that don't get straight to Gerrit validating artifacts, people lose interest fairly quickly.
Gerrit Yeah, if we can't be talking about the provenance of a letter that was written 100 years ago, but copied 150 years ago.
Richard No, we don't read those emails, because we have a strict policy here at the Standard of Truth podcast, where we only read very, very positive feedback. If you say something like, I liked your episode last week. Well, that's not good enough, so we're not gonna read it.
Gerrit No, we need the subject line to be, this is positive, I promise, I swear. And then sometimes people try to slip into the body of it, like, I really didn't like that you did this. And then we just, you know.
Richard Yeah, we cut it straight out.
Gerrit Then you're dead to us.
Richard I am hugely insecure. And so we need for you to say nice things about my friend so that I feel better about myself. Anyway, so in this particular bonus episode, we're gonna be talking about some of the things that we're going to do. Now, Gerrit has been taking folks on Church History Tours for about five or six years now.
Gerrit It's been a while.
Richard A while. And you've gone and done the Palmyra stuff and kind of on more of the East Coast, ending in Kirtland and then also did separate tours, Missouri and into Nauvoo.
Gerrit Careful, Ari's listening. Yeah, Ari's probably not listening.
Richard Not to a bonus episode.
Gerrit I feel like Ari stopped listening once we decided we were gonna press forward.
Richard Ari is my favorite listener. There I said it. He is my absolute favorite.
Gerrit Now let me tell you a little bit of a story. So look, for those of you who don't care at all about the fact that we're doing this Church History Tour, first of all, the reason why we're doing it is we had multiple people say, we would love to go on a Church History Tour with you. Can you plan one? Well, we had to figure out how to plan one. And as much as you would expect that someone is experienced in latex glove sales as Richard is.
Richard I don't know if you've ever, so I worked for a rubber glove company right out of college. So yeah, when I, in fact, I just taught a lecture today at the University of Utah.
Gerrit He does teach.
Richard And I mentioned rubber gloves so many times.
Gerrit I feel like it's your go-to on everything.
Richard Absolutely, everything really comes back.
Gerrit Like even if we were doing gospel things, like I could be like. Teach what you know. Yeah, so yeah, I could be like, so what's a time that you really felt closest to God? Well, one time I was trying to sell a box of Blue Midnight.
Richard It was black, it was black midnight.
Gerrit Dang it, I like it's blue.
Richard But anyway, you were saying.
Gerrit Yeah, tonight in my class, I was teaching, I was asking the students about, let's say you sit down on an airplane and you only had one minute to explain to someone what it is that you believe. Someone sits down next to you in probably a bad, fake Missouri accent, Ari, they say, so you're one of them Mormons? And you say yes, or I guess, the analogy doesn't work very well if you just cowardly lie and say that no, you're not, so that you don't have to go into the conversation. But you say yes, and they say, oh, I don't wanna hear your whole spiel, but in one minute, just tell me below does you believe? What makes you so different? And so, I solicited the responses from several people in the class.
Richard Yeah, and I actually sat in on Gerrit's class tonight. It was actually, that was fine.
Gerrit It was a ringing endorsement. Richard was like, one out of a 10, that's a solid three.
Richard No, of course it was great, but the students' responses were great, and they were saying the things that you'd think that they would say. Somebody mentioned the Book of Mormon, somebody mentioned Revelation and Priesthood Authority, other people mentioned Joseph Smith.
Gerrit Which were all great answers. Yeah, of course. And then I called on one woman in the class, and she had the best answer. She said, I think I would talk to them about how the Trinity is a false doctrine. And that's my favorite answer.
Richard Well, Gerrit said that. He said, that's my favorite answer, and you are now my favorite student.
Gerrit I said, you're now my favorite student. I've asked that analogy many times, and I've received many really, really great answers. But this girl, she was coming for him. Some Baptist sitting next to her on the plane, attacking her religion, I'm gonna attack your religion.
Richard No, no, no, no, no. First of all, he wasn't attacking. He was like, look, I don't have a lot of time. The way you presented, yeah, I don't have a lot of time. So tell me a little bit about, well, I'll tell you a little bit about what-
Gerrit I don't believe in a false doctrine like the Trinity. I'll tell you that. I'll tell you one thing, we believe in a real Jesus. That's one. So she spoke to my soul, honestly. I thought, you know what? She's gonna be out there defending the church.
Richard And these kind of witty quips and stories, you'll be able to hear as we drive from Boston to-
Gerrit To Onotoda, New York, right? I mean, somewhere. So anyway, we decided to do this as a separate one. I mean, I realized that we do topics all the time that may not be as appealing to other people. When you only have four listeners, three of them are gonna be unhappy most of the time. And so we responded to the request to try to put together a church history tour, which is different than, like I said, I've led tours in the past, but we wanted to start our own and we could do our own itinerary and trying to figure out all that has been a big deal. But the reason why we're dropping this bonus episode is the tour has gone live.
Richard Yeah, so we've gone live. You can go to the website, standardoftruth.com and there's a Tours tab at the top. There will also be a link in this particular episode, in this bonus episode that you can click, or you can go to that website. And there's a Tours tab and it goes through and it shows all the different stuff that we're gonna do and all the different things that will happen. And so, like I said, Gerrit's been doing these with his wife for almost six years, five, six years, something like that. And so he's done a lot of these. And so actually, it was actually, you know, joke around quite a bit, but the response to doing this was actually quite humbling. It was actually very, very sweet.
Gerrit People were very kind. And so that makes me look forward to it even more. So what we, what I haven't done this itinerary before, because this, I got to choose mine. So yeah.
Richard So you mix in some American history as part of that.
Gerrit So we're going to go to, we're going to all meet essentially at the Boston Airport.
Richard We wanted to start with the Boston Massacre. We thought that was a great place to kick things off.
Gerrit Yeah, we thought, you know, we need, we need this to be just on the, you know, good feeling Boston Massacre. We'll start there. But you know, obviously Boston, you know, one of the oldest cities in America and so rich with revolutionary war history. And so we plan to fly into Boston, see some of the sites there in Boston. And this includes things like the Boston Massacre site, the famous Old North Church, where they put one lantern in or two lanterns in to let them know how the British were coming when they first went. And the Quincy Market that's there, which is famous, you know, basically downtown square of Boston.
Richard And there's a new site that we would actually go to kind of on the first day as people are coming in. This is kind of interesting.
Gerrit Yeah, the church's newest site is the Smith family monument in Topsfield, which is where four generations of Smiths lived. I mean, we tend to think of the Smiths moving all around because Father Smith is, you know, he's dealing with crop failures and ginseng problems and things like that. But prior to that, his family lived in the Topsfield area for a long time. And in fact, they were really active both in the community and in the local congregational church. Now, congregationalism is the church system that's descended from the Puritans. So the Puritans came and settled Plymouth Rock. That church system, which is essentially radical Episcopalianism, it is a Church of England, but reformed Church of England.
Gerrit That was pretty prominent all throughout New England and the Smith family all belonged to it. So there's a monument that President Ballard, Angie and I actually went out to that dedication with President Ballard. And it's a pretty awesome site that's there outside. We're also gonna go to Lexington and Concord. We're gonna go to the site of the Battle of Bunker Hill, which is obviously a major turning point in the Revolutionary's ability to defend themselves. So some American history stuff that we'll spend some time on there. And then we are going to begin wending our way up to Sharon, Vermont. Now, many of the tours I've done actually haven't gone to Sharon, Vermont. It is, it's kind of out of the way.
Richard It is out of the way, but my wife and I've gone somewhere. It's an awesome kind of site.
Gerrit In fairness to Sharon, Vermont, anywhere in Vermont is kind of out of the way. In fact, I'm pretty sure they're looking to rename their license plate to Vermont. Kind of out of the way.
Richard That's right.
Gerrit We're kind of out of the way.
Richard And there is a, I don't know, so this is the difference between kind of the stuff you get from Gerrit versus the stuff you get from me. But there is a KFC Taco Bell outside of Sharon, Vermont that allegedly is the site where Joseph Smith had his leg operation. So that's-
Gerrit Well, I mean, they were like, I'll need a bucket of fries. And while we're at it, a new leg.
Richard Yeah, it is perfect. We met with some missionaries out there and that's what they told us. And it was too good for me to even look it up. I absolutely believed it.
Gerrit So it's one of those things where he doesn't even want me to find out if it's true. He just wants to believe that it's true.
Richard I want to believe that now there is a Taco Bell where Joseph Smith had his leg operation.
Gerrit And I think Alice Cooper's a Mormon, right?
Richard I've heard that as well.
Gerrit Okay, all right, but anyway.
Richard We're sure the site's amazing. It's pretty interesting. If you have never been before, it is a beautiful site that the church is.
Gerrit So we're gonna go to Sharon, Vermont. And from there, we're gonna go to, we're gonna go actually to the Battle of Saratoga site, again, with the American history. Saratoga is the turning point in the Revolutionary War. Prior to Saratoga, the foreign nations were unwilling to intervene because Britain was the superpower in the world. And France and Spain had just fought a very costly war, the Seven Years' War with England and lost, and lost badly. And it's the reason why Richard's French Canadian ancestors were living in a British colony, because that's when Britain took all of French Canada. And so they were unwilling to get involved in the revolution until the revolutionaries could prove that they weren't just going to collapse under the first British invasion. And at the Battle of Saratoga, the British invasion army coming down from Canada, probably some of your relatives were giving them gift baskets along the way with bottles of wine.
Richard Yeah, right.
Gerrit Well, you're French.
Richard Yeah, of course.
Gerrit It was certainly, maybe cheese, but that General Johnny, Gentleman Johnny Burgoyne, as they called him, because he dressed as a bit of a dandy, they said. His army is first stopped and then essentially surrounded and forced to surrender by the Patriots. And it's actually at that battle that Benedict Arnold is really the great hero of the battle. The reason why Benedict Arnold is such a traitor is because Benedict Arnold was such a hero, right? He is a hero in America that then sells his comrades out. So that'll be something that we'll go there to check that out. And then we are going to head down to the Harmony Restoration Site, the Priesthood Restoration Site. The churches, if you haven't been to Harmony in the past five years, the churches redone that site. I mean, there used to be a marker there and there was a cemetery there.
Gerrit And now they have reconstructed the Isaac Hale family home that Emma grew up in and the home that Joseph and Emma are first going to have their first home in. And that's also on the property. It's here that Joseph is actually going to receive the first revelation that's recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants. I know that you think that'd be Doctrine and Covenants section one, but that's actually received later because it's the revelation they receive for the introduction to the book. That's why it's later. But Doctrine and Covenants section three in 1828 is the first recorded revelation of Joseph Smith. And it's received there in harmony. It's an harmony that Joseph meets Oliver. And while they're translating the Book of Mormon, they have the question, because the Book of Mormon is adamant that unlike every Protestant around them, you have to be baptized in order to be saved. And so they ask God and they receive this miraculous visitation from John the Baptist, who gives them the lesser authority, the priesthood to baptize one another, and they go and they proceed to baptize one another.
Gerrit So this place is pretty special. It's also here that Joseph is going to give the 116 pages to a very anxious Martin Harris and never see them again, as he takes them up to Palmyra and they are then stolen slash lost. I know we always talk about them being lost, but very frustrating. They are stolen. Even God says they're stolen. I don't know why we even call them lost. They're the stolen 116 pages. At any rate, it's more than pages that are lost in harmony. In harmony, Joseph and Emma, after having sacrificed everything to follow God's commands and get the Book of Mormon translated, in the midst of all of those struggles, Emma's gonna give birth to their first born child and that boy is going to die immediately after he's born. And so they're in harmony is the monument, is the stone marking in memoriam of this dead child, this horrible tragedy in their life.
Gerrit So in some ways, you get to kind of follow Joseph in his progression as a young seer.
Richard Well, and so that's actually one of the reasons that Gerrit wanted to kind of put the tour together to the way that he did here, where we start with the Smiths in Topsfield, and we go to Sharon, and we kind of follow kind of a little bit more of a chronology path.
Gerrit I mean, if we could, we would go to Palmyra for the First Vision, then go down to Harmony, then come back up to Fayette. If you're coming with us and you do that drive, you'll be like, I know why we only went once.
Richard But we did try to make it a little bit where you're kind of doing some storytelling. And honestly, that's one of the things that I think would be the most fun for people that decided to join to come with us on this, would be all the sites are awesome, but all of the learning comes, the majority of it on those bus rides. So the bus rides are sometimes, at least in the tours that you've given, some of the kind of the most fun that you had.
Gerrit And it's where we get to answer questions and we get to have Richard finally tell people about rice tariffs and-
Richard Yeah, no, that's, yeah, we're teasing that for the tour.
Gerrit Yeah, no, that's-
Richard Gerrit, all he does talks polygamy.
Gerrit That's all he does. I actually do answer polygamy questions on the tour. Yeah. That's all you do. Boy, we, I really wish you hadn't said that.
Richard I know, I know.
Gerrit Yeah, in other news, the number of people signing up has skyrocketed. So from Harmony, we're gonna go up to Fayette, New York, where the church is organized. And while that's where the church is organized, it really is the next step in the progression of what's going on. Because as you know, it's there in Fayette that the, really the balance of the Book of Mormon is gonna be completed, that Joseph and Oliver are gonna finish their translation and then take it up to Palmyra where this is going to be published. And so in Fayette, Joseph's gonna receive multiple revelations. It's in Fayette. For those of you who've been listening to our stories of Edward Partridge and Sidney Rigdon, it's in Fayette that Sidney Rigdon comes and says, I wanna be baptized, and Edward Partridge comes and says, I saw those corn rows and they were in straight lines. Let's get baptized. And of course, where all of the church's early conferences were, Fayette is the place where, for the first year of the church, they met every three months to have a church conference.
Gerrit And of course, it's the place where the church is organized. It's also a place where there's a lesser known miracle that takes place. And that is that while they are in Peter Whitmer Sr.'s home, they are going to have the voice of the Lord speak to them. And it's something that Joseph, when he recounts many of the miracles of the early church in Doctrine and Covenants section 128, one of the things he talks about is the voice of the Lord in the chamber of old Father Whitmer. And so we're going to be going to that place, the place where Joseph had that happen, where the church was organized, where the early saints gathered together for their conferences. We're going to go then to Palmyra. In Palmyra, of course, we're going to the Sacred Grove. Everyone knows that. We're going to the Smith family home. And in fact, while many things are recreations, where the church has rebuilt them, there's a couple of things in Palmyra that aren't. One of them is the frame home that the Smiths lived in.
Gerrit This is the home they're living in when Martin Harris has to come down the lane and sits on their fence to wait to finally come in and tell them that he has lost the pages of the Book of Mormon. Well, that they were stolen from. They'll eventually lose that home. They won't be able to make the payments on it and their creditors will take it. But this area, it's a powerful place to be. The first time I went to the Sacred Grove, it struck very deeply to me that Joseph Smith was not a liar. It's funny that that's how critics approach Joseph Smith. They want to say, oh, he's a fraud, oh, he's a liar. No historian who is studying everything that Joseph wrote is going to conclude that Joseph is at least deliberately deceiving anyone.
Gerrit Joseph really believes that not only was he called by God, but that he has something God wants him to give to other people. And so it's pretty awesome. You go to those places and you feel the reality of them. And everyone gets a chance, you know, to contemplate their own relationship with God in those areas. So I think it's one of my favorite spots to be. The other really cool thing in Palmyra, well, there's a couple of things like the Hill Cumorah exists, right? That's pretty cool to go and see where Joseph not only got the plates, but where the angel visited with him and spoke to him every year for four years before he got the plates. But also the Grandin Print Shop, which is, it's a pretty awesome, if you haven't been to the Grandin Print Shop, the church purchased the building that the print shop was in and they purchased the buildings to the right and to the left of it and then built a museum from those buildings surrounding it, surrounding the actual print shop itself.
Gerrit It, it's a pretty awesome thing. So you walk into a, what is like a museum, but what you're actually walking around and in and through is literally the place where the Book of Mormon was printed.
Richard And the missionaries do a great job really being able to show and describe what that would have been like to print and publish something as...
Gerrit It demonstrates, you come away from the Grandin Print Shop saying, this was a mammoth undertaking.
Richard Well, when you think about, in terms of the number of books, nowadays, we don't think about it as being that big of a deal, but boy.
Gerrit Because I'm just going to have Amazon self-published. But now, yeah. And so it's an issue that when you go there, you really do kind of gain a greater understanding. Obviously, there's other things we'll see along the way as well, but from there, we will head out to where the saints are commanded by God to go. I mean, that's kind of the cool part, right? As Richard said, we're kind of following in the footsteps of where the saints went, where Joseph and his family went, where the saints are commanded by Revelation in Doctrine and Coven, Section 37 and 38, to leave everything they have essentially in New York. And they that have farms that cannot be sold, let them be left or rented as semit them good and go to the Ohio. And these Latter-day Saints faced with this injunction to give up everything they have, they go to Kirtland and it's, it's frankly, it's, it's awe-inspiring every time I do it.
Gerrit Every time I go, considering that as we begin to head west to Kirtland and in Kirtland, you know, the church has an amazing array of restored and original buildings from the Kirtland era. My favorite is the Newell K. Whitney store. Now my wife's favorite, Angie's favorite, is the sawmill. And that's because her, I don't know how many greats, how many greats she's, she's hand signaling for, she doesn't want to talk apparently on this, but her fourth great grandfather built the sawmill in Kirtland that they then used for obviously, you know, everything there. She's not entirely sure now. I think we're going to have to send this to your mom and then she will, she'll vet it. She's not even related to that person. We're just making that. No, seriously, Joel Hills Johnson, who is more famous to Latter-day Saints because of a hymn that he wrote. Do you know what hymn that was?
Richard I do not.
Gerrit High on a mountain top. All right.
Richard Oh my gosh.
Gerrit I love that hymn. I know everyone loves that hymn. It's a great hymn. Anyway. Oh yeah. Well, what she's saying in the background is a lot of the time, the missionaries will actually ask what hymn he wrote. And Angie's like, Angie always knows. And so whenever we go, the missionaries are like, oh yeah, wow, how'd you know? Because he's my grandfather. I mean, she's not mean about it when she says it, but I made it sound like she was.
Richard She's like being a jerk to the missionary.
Gerrit She's like, well, actually, and then this is his birthday. No, she's not like that. Um, but, um, the, the Newell K Whitney store is, to me, it is a holy place. I, it sounds weird to even say that, you know, as I say it out loud, you're thinking, all right, back it down. But when you go upstairs in the Newell K Whitney store to the school, the prophets room, yes, that's important because here's where Joseph received the Word of Wisdom revelation. And yes, in another room in the upstairs, that's where he did a bunch of the translation of the Bible that he was doing. But it's in that room that Joseph and many of the people that are gathered for, uh, the school of the prophets meeting, they see both Jesus and God the father. And every time I go, it is a, it's a special experience because it is, it's a holy place. And I know this, maybe this sounds cliche, but I, uh, you know, as we put up on the website, I hear people all the time talking about going to Jerusalem because they can say that they walked where Jesus walked.
Gerrit You walk across that floor, many of them, the original floorboards of, uh, the new okay Whitney store. And you are quite literally walking where Jesus walked because Jesus walked through the center of the room. And you know, speaking of, of things like that, you know, if you're looking for places where the Savior appeared, we're going to, we're going to go to the, the Kirtland Temple. Now the Kirtland Temple, as you might know, is owned and operated by the community of Christ, which is the reorganized church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Um, I'm glad we can still include it on the tour. They've steadily been raising their prices for how much it costs to get in. So I'm assuming that sometime next year, it'll be a hundred dollars ahead to get in. Although we talked to one of the people there and he was like, look, we already know that no matter what price we set it at, you guys are going to still show up in tour buses.
Richard That's what he said. There's something in economics called elasticity. And so right now that's, they're, they're realizing something that they should have realized sooner.
Gerrit And honestly, as you're saying, they should have been bilking mountain saints, which is what they call us, by the way. They often refer to us as mountain saints, which makes us sound like we're some kind of goat.
Richard Hillbilly.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard You're a mountain Billy. Well, so, well, yeah, no, I actually applaud. I mean, while at the same time, I do not appreciate my wife, her family, she brings up several times that her family, you know, was responsible for, you know, smashing their, you know, China to build it. And I'm going to get in and do it, but they're business savvy. I do respect it, but I don't necessarily agree.
Gerrit Regardless of how much we end up having to pay to get in, it's incredible to be inside.
Richard We had an opportunity to go before COVID and if somebody comes on the tour that knows how to play the piano, the missionary or the person that's working there asks if somebody does and then they play the Spirit of God. And then we all sing the Spirit of God.
Gerrit They always do it, but they often do it, it depends on what kind of time schedule they're on.
Richard Sure, but it was pretty special.
Gerrit Regardless of what happens when you go inside, there were a few years we couldn't go inside because they weren't allowing anyone in between COVID.
Richard Yeah, actually, I haven't been since COVID, I don't know. So what was it like when you went last time?
Gerrit It was awesome. When you go into those pulpit rooms and you know that, and I saw the Lord standing on the breast work of the pulpit of the temple, I mean, again, it's here that Joseph has the vision of the celestial kingdom where he sees Alvin and for the first time since Alvin died, knows that Alvin has the ability to go to the celestial kingdom because God hadn't revealed that to him yet. When you know that he saw the Lord there, you know that Moses, Elias and Elijah appear and give keys to him. I mean, it is, I mean, the Kirtland Temple is amazing. And then outside of Kirtland, we also go to the John Johnson Farm in Hiram, Ohio. It's spelled H-I-R-A-M, so it really throws us off because all of us are always spelling Hiram with an H-Y because of Hyrum Smith.
Gerrit That's where Joseph will move shortly after coming to Kirtland and he lives in that home and you are familiar with the stories that happen there even though you don't know that you are because it's there that the mob will break in and drag Joseph out outside, beat him, try to poison him, threaten to kill him, shove a tar paddle down his mouth. It's pretty awful. Of course, in consequence of this or at least that's how many people feel that one of his ailing children adopted babies dies shortly thereafter because of the exposure and everything that happened during that night. So there's a lot of bitter at that site. At the same time, in the upper room of that home is where Joseph Smith received his greatest revelation or perhaps his greatest revelation. It's there that he has a revelation that's so powerful, we've talked about on the podcast, that's where they call it the vision and that Joseph sees the celestial, terrestrial and terrestrial kingdoms along with Sidney Rigdon.
Gerrit They see it together. It's a collective shared vision in that upper room and that vision alone, as Wilfred Woodruff said, gives more light and understanding than any other revelation. It is transformative of who we are and where we're going. And so it is a powerful way to remind ourselves of the plan of salvation. So we just wanted to give you a brief overview of some of the things that we'll be doing. Obviously, there'll be other things.
Richard So a couple of things, housekeeping items, and then I'd like to share a couple of things that we've been talking about this evening that are just kind of funny as it relates to kind of going on these tours and just some things to just to make you aware of. So right now on the website, standardoftruth.com, you can go to the Tours tab and you can... I think we're looking for 44 folks, is what we're looking for.
Gerrit Because of the limitations of space on the bus, and we're only taking one bus because that's already a lot. And so, yeah, it's a first come first serve thing.
Richard We already had somebody sign up this morning. We didn't even...
Gerrit We didn't have it live yet. But well, it became live and we didn't realize...
Richard We were literally just kind of testing it and somebody signed up.
Gerrit While we were testing it, someone signed up.
Richard It was literally just the funniest thing.
Gerrit So they certainly get an award for quickly doing it. But I mean, the number of people that express that they wanted to go is a considerable number. I realize that there's a difference between wanting to go and actually being able to. They're not the same thing. But I do just want to... If it is something that you are interested in doing, you probably... And if we're able to go, we'll try to go again at some other time. But if you're interested, we hope that you sign up sooner rather than later.
Richard So you'll go there, you'll click on to put in a deposit. If, for some reason, the tour is to be canceled, you would obviously receive your deposit back. But that deposit holds your spot. And we are just finalizing a couple of things. And then we'll send out an email that will have the link to all the details, all of the information for you to sign up as well as to be able to pay. There's fairly substantial costs on the front end from a deposit standpoint.
Gerrit Yeah, and luckily, gas prices have doubled. That's helpful when you're practicing in bus prices. You wouldn't think that buses with thousands and thousands and thousands of pounds would grow through a lot of fuel, but they don't get the best gas mileage.
Richard It's one highway, zero city.
Gerrit It's negative one Palmyra.
Richard But so that's that in terms of kind of the practical way that is. And so in terms of full sign up, that'll be coming in the next week or two as we finalize that. But you can get in and lock in.
Gerrit And we're still working on the hotels. I mean, where we can, we'll be staying in Marriott hotels.
Richard So this is actually the thing that is kind of funny because what is it that you said when we were talking about this earlier? Because a lot of these hotels are in the middle of nowhere.
Gerrit Right. So you have to manage a little bit of your expectations. You may want a really great place to go get a T-bone steak in Fayette. The problem is the reason why Joseph Smith moved to Fayette was so that he would stop being hounded by people who were anti's while he was translating the Book of Mormon. He moved there because no one lived there outside of the Whitmer family, essentially.
Richard And Newsflash, 2022.
Gerrit Fewer people lived there.
Richard Yeah.
Gerrit I mean, and that's how it is for a lot of these places. I mean, Sharon, Vermont is, well, all of Vermont is rural. Sharon, Vermont is a rural part of Vermont, which should give you an idea. So, you know, I don't know if you've gone on tours like this before, but the reality is, you know, you have to kind of take what you can get in that regard. I mean, sometimes, literally, the best place to get lunch in the town that you're in when it's lunchtime is a subway. And so, you know, so, I mean, we are, we're doing what we can to keep the cost down, as well as, you know, we want it to be nice for people. So we plan on staying, you know, in Marriott's part of the way, in Palmyra. There's only one place you can stay that's in Palmyra, and we'll see if we can get that hotel, which has gotten a little bit nicer lately because it was bought by Best Western. And similarly, in Kirtland, there is one very large holiday in there that is right next to all the church sites.
Gerrit And so we'll try to get those, we'll try to find, you know, the best available places, which, you know, kind of be determined on how many people are signed up. But hopefully people aren't going because they think that they're going to get the best veal they've ever had outside of Sharon, Vermont.
Richard Well, and so that's one of the other things as well. So obviously we want to accommodate for medical issues or other things. But you made the comment to me, if vegetarian or vegan, if you're in Fayette, that means what?
Gerrit Salad.
Richard That's right.
Gerrit It means salad everywhere, actually. Well, because of the places you're going to, they, they. I mean, you're the local sandwich shop that, you know, is, is, is there, they, they, you know, they don't have a ton of items on the menu. It's, you end up, you end up taking what you can get. But I mean, you know, I think we, you know, we've done enough times that, uh, I know, you know, kind of the better places we could go and things like that. And so we'll have that planned out. And for people who sign up, that'll be part of, you know, we'll, our explanation every day is we'll tell people, hey, today we're going to be doing this, we're going to be doing that. We'll be eating this here or we're getting a box lunch, you know, so that we can keep going on the bus to get somewhere else. It's a lot of traveling. I mean, you are going from the morning until, you know, the early evening so that you can see as much as you possibly can.
Richard One of the things that does put a bit of a restriction around it. So we're not traveling. I will say, so I don't know if I've mentioned this on the podcast before, but during COVID, my family, you know, my wife and our five kids, we rented a suburban and we hit 48 states in about three and a half weeks. It was aggressive, we had to get two oil changes on the rental car. We're not going to be going at that breakneck pace because the church sites open and close at times that are actually fairly reasonable.
Gerrit Well, yeah, but not as reasonable if you're trying to hit more than one in a day. Most of them are open 10 to five, meaning that you may want to travel a little bit in the morning to get to one, but it will be pretty difficult to hit more than one in a day if they're a distance away from one another because by the time you get lunch or whatever and you drive.
Richard So there'll be time in the evening to rest and relax.
Gerrit Yep, every evening we'll be in a hotel and there'll be a little bit of time to decompress and unwind, but we also are being fairly aggressive because we want people to see as much as they possibly can in the time that we have.
Richard Yeah, and I imagine for many of you that have just deep interest in my dissertation topic, I'll just set up a table. It'll have a little, it'll have one of those stands that you see at a career fair. You can come by, we'll talk about it.
Gerrit While you were talking, the person who had signed up, they just asked for a reason.
Richard They just canceled.
Gerrit And this isn't even live. That's what's so weird. Yeah, somehow they knew.
Richard That's right.
Gerrit They knew, anyway, we hope that, obviously we dropped this as a bonus because we don't want anyone to feel, maybe you don't want to go, maybe you've already been, maybe you can't go this year or whatever. And so we didn't want to waste your time. Although if you're still listening right now.
Richard That's kind of on you.
Gerrit Yeah, right. Yeah, you've wasted your time.
Richard If you're so smart, start your own podcast, start your own tour.
Gerrit That's Richard's favorite line of all time. But we didn't want to take away from the regular content we provide. And we're just really grateful that that anyone wanted to do this now. Maybe we'll find that even though a hundred people asked us to do it, there was really only about five who meant that they would. And one of them was my mom. But you know, but if it really is something that people want to do, I love going to these sites with people who love them. Because there is something about being where your ancestors were, men and women who came before you, even if you're not related to them, you're spiritually related to them because what you have, you have because they were faithful.
Richard I will say for me, so I come from a family of converts. And so I don't have, when my wife goes to these places, she's going and we're talking about people that she's related to. And when I go, I don't. But it is just as profound, if not even, if possible more so, as this is the most important thing that I'm a part of. And to see and to feel that is, it's pretty special.
Gerrit Well, thank you so much for listening. We hope if you are interested that you sign up. And if this one doesn't work, hopefully another one will in the future. And we're just really grateful for the support we've received and I personally am. I appreciate the kind comments we've received and we just wanted to try to find a way to get everybody together. So, thank you very much.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.

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No, we don't read those emails, because we have a strict policy here at the Standard of Truth podcast, where we only read very, very positive feedback.

RichardBanter

I am hugely insecure. And so we need for you to say nice things about my friend so that I feel better about myself.

RichardBanter

So what's a time that you really felt closest to God? Well, one time I was trying to sell a box of Blue Midnight.

GerritBanter

In fairness to Sharon, Vermont, anywhere in Vermont is kind of out of the way.

GerritBanter

I want to believe that now there is a Taco Bell where Joseph Smith had his leg operation.

RichardBanter

The first time I went to the Sacred Grove, it struck very deeply to me that Joseph Smith was not a liar.

GerritInsight

And you are quite literally walking where Jesus walked because Jesus walked through the center of the room.

GerritInsight

It's one highway, zero city.

RichardBanter

Because there is something about being where your ancestors were, men and women who came before you, even if you're not related to them, you're spiritually related to them because what you have, you have because they were faithful.

GerritInsight

But it is just as profound, if not even, if possible more so, as this is the most important thing that I'm a part of.

RichardInsight

More from this episode

Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.

Claim check

What critics say, and what the episode found
Joseph Smith was a fraud deliberately deceiving people.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.

Take it to class

Ready to copy into a lesson or a text

Visiting Church history sites in order, from Topsfield and Sharon to Harmony, Fayette, Palmyra and Kirtland, lets you follow Joseph's growth as a young seer.

In the Newel K. Whitney store and the Kirtland Temple, you can stand where the Savior appeared.

Whether you descend from pioneers or come from a family of converts, you are spiritually related to those who were faithful before you.

Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.

Banter bin

The running jokes, for people who skip ahead
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagOnly very, very positive emails get read; a subject line must swear it's positive (1:15).
Richard and the rubber glovesHis glove-sales career comes up in every lecture, even "when did you feel closest to God" (2:36).
Ari, our favorite listenerAri probably isn't listening to a bonus episode, but he is Richard's absolute favorite (2:23).
The fake Missouri accentA plane seatmate asks "so you're one of them Mormons?" in a bad Missouri accent (3:40).
The Sharon Taco BellMissionaries told Richard a KFC Taco Bell stands where Joseph had his leg operation, and he refuses to check (10:56).
Japanese rice tariffsThe bus rides are where Richard will finally talk rice tariffs, and Gerrit only polygamy (17:33).
Mountain BillyThe Community of Christ calls them "mountain saints," which sounds like a goat (27:47).
Salad in FayetteVegetarian options on the tour mean salad, everywhere (36:41).
Start your own podcast"If you're so smart, start your own podcast, start your own tour" (39:40).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

Your question could be next week’s episode
Questions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
General ConferenceGeneral Conference talks that cite a scripture read in this episode.

In General Conference

Talks from the latest General Conference that cite a scripture this episode reads or names on air
October 2026 General Conference · cites D&C 76Come to the Lord in His Holy HouseElder Gerrit W. GongElder Gong lays out three doctrinal foundations for temple worship: eternal families, moral agency, and the Holy Spirit of Promise, which makes honored covenants binding.

Summaries, themes and lessons for every talk are on What Did They Say?

Go deeperWhere to read more.

Go deeper

Deep dives the episode points toward
Read D&C 128:20-21, where Joseph lists the early miracles, including the voice of the Lord in Father Whitmer's chamber (19:10).
The Topsfield, Massachusetts roots of the Smith family and their Congregational church (8:51).
The Battle of Saratoga and why it brought France into the Revolution (11:48).
D&C 76, received in the John Johnson home, and why Wilford Woodruff prized it so highly (30:09).
SOT Litner · S2B2.