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Season 74 of Survivor
S2E1 · The Book of Moses
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Standard of Truth · Season 2 · Episode 1 · 1:00:31

The Book of Moses

Joseph Smith received a vision of worlds without number in June 1830, seven months before the Church had a single bishop.

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Why is the Book of Moses one of the most profound evidences of Joseph Smith's prophetic calling, when most of us don't even think of it as a revelation?

Gerrit

Richard and Gerrit open season two with the Old Testament year and Gerrit's pick for one of the most profound evidences of Joseph Smith's prophetic calling: the Book of Moses. Gerrit reads through Moses 1, where Moses sees God, learns he is a son of God, and then faces Satan, who leaves only when Moses calls on the Only Begotten. He stresses how early this June 1830 revelation is, before apostles, deacons or bishops, and how radical its many inhabited worlds were. The episode lands on Moses 1:39: God's glory is bringing his children to become like him.

Who comes upMosesJoseph SmithJesus ChristSatanElijahGordon B. HinckleyAdamEve
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Season 74 of Survivor

Gerrit and Richard kick off season two and joke that only their moms are listening.

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Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, where we explore the early days of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and gain rare historical insights into how a young farm boy was able to establish a new church and grow it by way of visions, manifestations, and miracles.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.
Richard We are now in season two of the Standard of Truth Podcast. We start a new season at the beginning of a new year, and in episode one of season two, we wanted to talk a little bit about The Book of Moses.
Gerrit We weren't exactly sure how to split our seasons. I was told by someone who was in the know that you should have a whole bunch of really short seasons. That didn't really make a lot of sense to me.
Richard Well, it works for the voice.
Gerrit Yeah, yeah. So, you know, what season of Survivor is this? How long has Survivor been on the air? Oh, 20 years. Oh, so they're in the 20th season. No, it's season 74, or something like that. Well, part of the reason why we didn't think a whole lot about what season two would look like is we didn't really think there'd be a season one. And so that makes it harder to- Yeah, you're not game planning out very far. But I really appreciate everyone who's listened and everyone beyond my mom, Rachel's mom, anyone else that we know?
Richard No, those are the two.
Gerrit There are several moms.
Richard So this is exciting. One of the things that we've tried to do here is there are a lot of podcasts around Come Follow Me. And so you're going to be getting-
Gerrit And they're obviously better than this one.
Richard Oh, they're all much, much better.
Gerrit People are only listening to this one after they've already listened to all of those.
Richard They've exhausted, they've gone to Joel Osteen's, they've done all other-
Gerrit There are multiple Catholic podcasts they've already listened to. They're having a discussion with themselves right now about transubstantiation, and they think, well, I'll tune into this one.
Richard Still better than Gerrit's.
Gerrit Yeah, still better than Gerrit's.
Richard So the thing is though, is that there are a lot of topics to be able to talk to. And so one of the things that we've tried to do is there are some topics that do align to come follow me. And we try to do that occasionally, but that isn't the idea. It's mostly around church history.
Gerrit Yeah, mostly church history. And sometimes they line up anyway. And hopefully that gives it a timeless quality to it, so that when my mom or Rachel's mom downloads it, whenever they get to it, they can listen to it.
Richard Well, and honestly, so one of the biggest influences in my testimony, I know, Gerrit, we talk about this all the time, were those tapes that we listened to when we were on our mission of Truman Madsen.
Gerrit Yeah, Truman Madsen was phenomenal and just his way of presentation. And you're probably thinking right now as you listen to this, Gerrit, I know Truman Madsen.
Richard Truman Madsen's a friend of mine.
Gerrit And you, sir, are no Truman Madsen. Which is fair, fair and also true. At any rate, we are talking about the Old Testament this year in Sunday School. And one thing I don't have the ability to, well, my wife's probably listening. One thing I don't have the ability to do, I mean, among the Legion, for there are many that I don't know how to do or that I'm not good at is, you know, I'm not trained in the Old Testament. I mean, obviously I read the Old Testament. I love the Old Testament. Some of the stories of the Old Testament are actually foundations of my testimony as a child. I mean, I remember when I first read, not just had the story told to me, when I first read the story of Elijah calling down fire from heaven, I'm telling you right now, I felt the Holy Spirit testify to me that this happened, that Elijah was prophet of God and that this took place.
Gerrit Well, interestingly, so I'm still a teenager at this point, and President Hinckley was the prophet. And I went to one of those priesthood night sessions of general conference when people all used to still go to the church. Now we don't even go to the church at all because of COVID in some places. But we went there, and I remember listening to President Hinckley speak. I had this incredibly powerful feeling, very similar to what I had when I was reading about Elijah's story. And the words came into my mind that this man is like Elijah, right? That this is a modern day prophet, just like the prophet you read about. So I think that's one of the things we take away from the Old Testament. In some ways, it's easier than the Doctrine and Covenants, which means I went into the wrong field.
Gerrit And that is that there's so much narrative that's involved. There's so many stories that teach different principles or that you can extract certain principles from. But I'm not a specialist in the Old Testament. I'm trained in 19th century history. And while I could pretend or give you my ideas and my thoughts and my readings on it, they probably wouldn't be very good. And you're probably thinking, well, you're the ones on the Doctrine and Covenants were very good. They would be somehow less good. However, there is at least one part of this year's study, Old Testament study that I feel more confident in. And that's because I spent more time with it academically. And that is one of the greatest revelations that Joseph Smith receives that I would guess most of us don't even think of as a revelation. It to me is actually one of the most profound evidences of Joseph Smith's prophetic calling.
Gerrit And that is The Book of Moses. Now a lot of Latter-day Saints I would guess aren't even, they aren't even totally sure what The Book of Moses is because it's paired with The Book of Abraham in The Pearl of Great Price. We often kind of just link them together like Book of Moses, Abraham, Joseph's got some old prophet people here and there in this book and we're not really aware of the profundity of what it is. The first thing I want to start off with, with The Book of Moses, Moses, you know, Chapter 1 there is while much of The Book of Moses appears to be part of the translation process of Joseph Smith translating the Old Testament, the first part of it in its earliest manuscript is actually a revelation that Joseph Smith receives. In fact, the earliest heading to this document says a revelation given to Joseph the Revelator June 1830.
Gerrit This is sometimes referred to as the visions of Moses. And so this is June of 1830. Think about what's going on in March. The Book of Mormon got published in April. You finally have a church at all. In June of 1830, Joseph Smith receives this revelation that is so far beyond what his current knowledge is that's been revealed to him that it's actually pretty hard to comprehend. We're not just talking about the fact that God hasn't revealed to this point, or at least in any way we know of a pre-existent life. He hasn't revealed any of the things that we see as unique to Latter-day Saint Theology outside of, you know, the Book of Mormon. And when you compare what's in the Book of Moses to what Joseph Smith was revealing otherwise during that time period, I mean, section 22 is a revelation about whether or not people have to be baptized, even if they've already been baptized before.
Gerrit In that same time period, Joseph Smith is receiving this revelation that not only unfolds these incredible truths about God and our relationship to God, but also of the universe itself and our relationship to that universe. It's mind-blowing. I have to tell you, as a Joseph Smith scholar, every time I read Moses Chapter 1, I sit back in my chair stunned and I say, how is it possible that the 1830 Joseph, the same Joseph who's spelling Hiram, his brother's name wrong in letters that he's writing, how is it possible that he is producing this? It is so far beyond and in some ways, that seem pretty particular, so far beyond that it seems even Joseph doesn't even really understand what it is that he has received.
Gerrit I don't often, or at least I haven't, but maybe this is just a kill time, go through reading large portions of the chapter themselves because you have the ability to do that. You certainly don't need me for that, but I think that it's an important thing to recognize that Joseph is going to receive this revelation and it's going to include things that are profound. And the only way we can talk about how profound they are is we're going to read. Now I'm going to read from the earliest manuscript version of this. So this is not going to match up exactly with what you have in your Pearl of Great Price. So if you're following along and you think, oh, he missed a word, yes, but then also I'm reading from a different version. The words of God, which he spake unto Moses at a time when Moses was caught up into an exceedingly high mountain, and he saw God face to face and he talked with him.
Gerrit And the glory of God was upon Moses, therefore Moses could endure his presence. And God spake unto Moses, saying, Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and endless is my name, for I am without beginning of days or end of years, and is this not endless? And behold, thou art my son, wherefore look, and I will show thee the workmanship of mine hands, but not all of my works, but not all, sorry, for my works are without end, and also my worlds, for they never cease, wherefore no man can behold all my works except he behold all my glory, and no man can behold all my glory, and afterwards remain in the flesh. And I have a work for thee, Moses my son, and thou art in the similitude of mine only begotten, and mine only begotten is and shall be, for he is full of grace and truth.
Gerrit But there is none other God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all. And now behold, this one thing, I show unto thee, Moses my son, for thou art in the world, and I now shoe it thee, and it came to pass that Moses looked, and he beheld the world upon which he was created. Now, I know I read a lot there, but there's a lot already there. First of all, the relationship between Moses and God, where God is directly telling him, you are my son. And that doesn't seem to be in this kind of figurative, hey, thank you for worshiping me, so now I'm going to call you my son, sort of a way. It seems far more personal in that regard. Secondly, this, this reference near the end of what I read here, that, that he's going to show just one of these things that he's created to Moses.
Gerrit The world on which he was created. So that already implies what? That there are many other worlds that apparently have other inhabitants. Something that is implicit early on in this revelation is going to become express later in the revelation as we go further forward. And if you're, if you're wondering, this is verse 8 that in the middle of where it is today in your Moses 1. It came to pass that Moses looked and beheld the world upon which he was created and Moses beheld the world and the ends thereof and all the children of men which are and which were created of the same he greatly marveled and wondered. So first of all, what Moses is shown is a vision of every single person who's ever lived on the earth and who lived on the earth while they he was there.
Gerrit That that's a pretty expansive vision and also the world and the ends thereof and the presence of God withdrew from Moses that his glory was not upon Moses and Moses was left unto himself and as he was left unto himself, he fell to the earth. What Moses is reaction. I mean, really, you think it might almost be Joseph Smith's reaction as he's learning the same information. But Moses reaction is there in verse 10. And it came to pass that it was for the space of many hours before Moses did again receive his natural strength like unto a man, and he said unto himself, now for this cause, I know that man is nothing, which thing I had never supposed. It's an interesting thing that Moses' his vision in which God shows him all of the ends of the earth causes Moses to realize how insignificant he is in that scheme of things.
Richard But at the same time, also this understanding of the nature of man. This is something we've talked about in previous podcasts as it relates to the general Christian idea of man is that we are a creation of God. But here in these first couple of verses, Moses is being called his son, a child of God.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard Very specifically, when does Joseph first begin to realize the very nature of man?
Gerrit It's hard to find something more, nothing earlier than Moses 1. I mean, this is June of 1830. This is, let me put it this way.
Richard The ink still dry on the formation of the church documents that just signed.
Gerrit Yeah, there's still, this is five years before there's a quorum of the 12 apostles. That's how early this is in the formation of church theology. This is three years before Joseph will receive Doctrine and Covenants Section 93, which we have a multi-part podcast back in Season 1, if you want to go listen to that, and we might reference some of that here. It's two years before Joseph receives the vision that explains the unfolding of the kingdoms of heaven. This isn't just early. This is ridiculously early. It's before there's an office of high priest. It's before that we know of any deacon has been called in the church, because deacons are mentioned in D&C 20. We won't have any reference to any deacons in 1830. It's actually kind of stunning to think about.
Gerrit That before we understand anything about where Zion is going to be, Joseph's receiving this vision that describes cosmologically the expanses of God's creation and mankind's relationship to it with Moses. Latter-day Saint theology. Now, I'm using the term Latter-day Saint, right? There are no Latter-day Saints yet, right? The Church is just the Church of Christ at this point. But the theology of the Church at this point, just by Moses alone, is incredibly radical. The Book of Mormon is sometimes criticized by critics who say that it's not quite radical enough, right? That the Book of Mormon seems to just answer questions that people in the 19th century had.
Gerrit As though God knew that it would come forth in the 19th century, and Mormon, who only wrote a hundredth part of what he had there, just so happened to be inspired to include things that are questions still in the 19th century. By the way, that argument is just a terrible argument in many respects. Acting like discussions over whether baptism should be infant or adult is only in the 19th century, demonstrates a lack of understanding of the entirety of Christian history, actually. Because there's a debate about it in the early Christian church, and there's a debate about it in the early Reformation, and there's a debate about it in the later stages of the Reformation, and there's a debate about it in the 19th century, but, oh, actually, it's just Joseph just copied that in there. I mean, one of the problems with that criticism is when God gives revelation that happens to answer current questions that we actually have, the response from critics is, oh, well, that's not really from God.
Gerrit That's just them saying what they want to say right now because that's a big deal. Okay, well, what's the opposite of that? That God only talks about things that have no meaning to you and that have no effect on your life. Where exactly is that God in the scriptures, right? I mean, when Moses is talking to God about leading the children of Israel out of Egypt, that's a pretty pressing concern at the time in Egypt. God isn't saying to Moses, you know what? You know what, age? I'm going to eventually make baptism. I think I'm going to make it eight. I know it's coming. It's funny that for a critic, there's actually no way to win. If God responds to a pressing actual question, like Wilford Woodruff having a vision to end plural marriage. Well, that's not really from God. That was just Wilford Woodruff knowing that he had to do that to save the church.
Gerrit Okay, so you criticize it because it's responding to an actual question. But if it were a prophecy or revelation that couldn't yet be fulfilled, like, hey, in the last days, this is going to happen, it's mocked as if you have no idea that that's going to happen. So there's actually no way for a prophet to win with a critic. If a prophet talks about something that's of a current pressing need, it's criticized as not being really from God, but being manmade. If a prophet talks about something that has absolutely nothing to do with right now, it's criticized as being ridiculous and, oh, come on, like, you can see the future, that kind of stuff. So it's, I've always found it to be a fairly weak criticism that the Book of Mormon happens to comment on things that people still have questions about in the 19th century. At any rate, the Book of Mormon has been criticized by some, like I said, as being too attuned to 19th century Christian beliefs.
Gerrit And there are even members of other religions who examine the Book of Mormon and say, you know, the text that's actually in the Book of Mormon is actually not that blasphemous at all, right? Now, if you're very critical, you'll say that's because they're just stealing it all from the Bible, right? Now, of course, it's only a very small portion of the Book of Mormon that's actually taken from the Bible. But to hear them tell it, you know, Joseph just sat down with a mimeograph machine that didn't actually exist and created, you know, the Book of Mormon. So that's one of the criticisms, is that it actually isn't very radical, right? The discussions that are had about things like resurrection, about what happens to the soul after death, about baptism and its necessity, about how wrong infant baptism is, the doctrinal discussions that are had in the Book of Mormon fall well within the mainstream Christian range of discussion.
Gerrit So while the radical aspect of the Book of Mormon, look, I'm being very, very broad here, this very broad brush, but the most radical aspect of the Book of Mormon to me and I think to a lot of Christians, is that it exists at all, because there's not supposed to be any scripture outside of the Bible. So if the Book of Mormon exists, that is the blasphemy. I don't think that you'll find a whole lot of Christians wrangling and saying it's blasphemy when Nephi says that we know it is by grace that we are saved after all that we can do. I mean, you can quote multiple Christian reformers who say almost exactly that. That grace is the only means of salvation regardless of the works that are performed, right? So that's not the most radical thing in the world. That the book exists is very radical because there's not supposed to be any scripture outside of the Bible. It's really in Joseph's revelations that the radicalism of Latter-day Saint theology begins to rear its ugly head if you happen to be a Christian critic.
Gerrit Because it's in the revelations that you go from saying, okay, well, I can accept what Alma says here. It's just Alma, of course, didn't really exist because the Bible was the only, right? I mean, where it's not so much what Alma says, it's that there is an Alma is the problem. With Joseph's revelations, they very quickly begin to contradict entirely what it is that Christians think about the world around them. And Moses really is one of these first steps in this understanding of God, both the theology of who God is, but also in the theology of who we are in the scheme of God. I mean, what are we in this? Now, of course, probably the most famous part of Moses 1 is this dance with the devil basically that Moses has, that after he's had this powerful vision where he sees everything, you know, Moses says in verse 11, mine eyes, mine own eyes, I beheld God, but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld, for I should have withered and died in his presence.
Gerrit This early discussion of, you know, transfiguration, essentially. But his glory was upon me and I beheld his face, and I was transfigured before him, and it came to pass that when Moses had said these words, behold, Satan came tempting him. So, Moses has just had the most powerful, I think, spiritual experience of his life. So much so that he's stunned by what God has shown him. He's not only spoken to God face to face, he has seen all the ends of the world. He's seen all the people who are going to live on it. And Satan came tempting him saying, Moses, son of man, worship me. And it came to pass that Moses looked upon Satan and said, who art thou? For, build, I am a son of God in the similitude of his only begotten. So again there, Moses talking about who we are in the similitude of his only begotten. Well, not just that we might look like God, but that we are the same, again, type of being, which is where you're going to get with D&C 93 and then later the King Follett Sermon, which we'll someday do, but probably the last podcast ever, and we'll say, and we're out.
Gerrit And thank you, it's been so good. We're going into retirement. Moses, who art thou? I'm a son of God in the similitude of the only begotten. Where is thy glory that I should worship thee? For, build, I could not look upon God except his glory should come upon me. And I were transfigured before him, but I can look upon thee in the natural man. Is it not so surely? Now, this is not going to end the conversation here. You know, Moses is going to say, get thee hence, Satan. And Satan is going to press the point. When Moses, so he says, depart hence, Satan. Verse 19, and now when Moses had said these words, Satan cried with a loud voice and ranted upon the earth and commanded saying, I am the only begotten, worship me. It's kind of funny to envision the ranting, I think, baby, but you know that he's pounding his fist on the ground or whatever.
Gerrit And what's interesting here that as this goes further. The reaction of Moses is going to both recognize that God is God and that Satan is not God, but there's also some fear that comes in. One of the aspects of Latter-day Saint Theology that's becoming increasingly radical, it wouldn't be very radical in the 19th century, but it's becoming increasingly radical today, and I've talked about this before, is that Satan is a real being that actually exists. In some churches, you have a majority of Christians. We're not talking about a majority of atheists. It's not surprising that an atheist wouldn't believe in Satan. They don't believe in God, so they don't believe in anything, right? But you have a majority of Christians in some churches doubting that Satan is an actual being.
Gerrit You'll notice that there's not a whole lot of threads of that inside Latter-day Saint theology. That Satan is still spoken of as being an evil actual being. I would guess in every general conference, you have someone reference Satan, if not once, many times, as an actual being trying to deceive us, trying to harm us, trying to destroy our souls. This power of Satan that Joseph felt from the very beginning, as we talked about those, the First Vision accounts in an earlier set of podcasts as well, he feels it. Joseph knows that there's a power from the unseen world better than anybody does. And I can only imagine that when he receives this revelation that is unfolding what Moses saw when Moses had his vision, that there might have been at least some kind of comfort that came to Joseph, that Moses had an even more stark encounter with Satan.
Gerrit It is not some fake thing from the, it is a real, real power as Joseph said, a real being from the unseen world. Well, it came to pass that Moses began to fear exceedingly. So Satan's ranting and screaming, you worship me. And Moses, I mean, this is a power that he feels uncomfortable with. Moses began to fear exceedingly and as he began to fear, he saw the bitterness of hell. Nevertheless, calling upon God, he received strength and he commanded saying, depart from me, Satan, for this one God only will I worship, which is the God of glory. And now Satan began to tremble and the earth shook. And Moses received strength and he called upon God saying, in the name of the only begotten, depart hence, Satan. And it came to pass that Satan cried with a loud voice, with weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth, and he departed hence even from the presence of Moses that he beheld him not.
Gerrit And now this thing, Moses bore record, but because of the wickedness, because of wickedness is not had among the children of men. So, one of the cool parts about this, and again, there are other people who could probably break this down much better than I can, but I've always found it very powerful that even though Moses is commanding Satan with authority to leave, you'll notice there's a difference in the last time he commands him to leave, right? In the first time, he says, depart hence Satan, right? Let me go back here. At first, he simply just says, who are you that I should worship you, right? In the very first encounter. And as he goes on to explain how he can recognize him, in verse 16, he says, get thee hence, Satan, to see me not. So verse 16, get thee hence.
Gerrit Verse 18, wherefore I can judge between him and thee, depart hence, Satan. So we have this depart hence and a get thee hence are the first two ways that he's told to leave. And then you have him one more time, the third time saying, depart from me, Satan, for this one God only worship which is the God of glory. So again, now I'm back into verse 21. Again, what does Moses say? This time he says, in the name of the only begotten, depart hence, Satan. And it's only then, even though Moses had power and authority, it was only then that Satan actually departs, after of course weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth and earthquakes and all kinds of power.
Gerrit So I think it's a very, it's a pretty profound lesson you can gain right there. How central Jesus is to the power that stands us up against the power of the adversary. Wilford Woodruff's great quote that he gives right there, there are only two great powers in the world, the power of God and the power of Satan. Whenever anything, I'm paraphrasing here, whenever we do anything that has to do with eternal salvation, it's under the influence of one of these two powers. Moses is like a demonstration of those powers up front. This challenge that he has with Satan, can't get him to depart, can't get him to depart, and finally invoking the name of the Lord. Satan has no choice but to depart. The aftermath of this exchange is also pretty profound.
Gerrit Calling upon the name of God, if you hold his glory again, for it was upon him, and he heard a voice saying, Blessed art thou Moses, for I, the Almighty, have chosen thee, and thou shalt be made stronger than many waters, for they shall obey thy command as if thou were God. Talk about some foreshadowing there, right? You'll be stronger than the waters, and they will obey as if you were God. Well, that happens. And lo, I'm with thee even in the end of thy days, for thou shalt deliver my people from bondage, even Israel my chosen. And it came to pass as the voice was still speaking. So the voice was speaking to him. Moses cast his eyes and beheld the earth, yea, even all of it. So before he saw all the people, he saw all the people that were going to be on the earth. Now he sees all the earth, and there was not a particle of it which he did not behold, discerning by the Spirit of God. And he beheld the inhabitants thereof, and there was not a soul that he beheld not.
Gerrit This is a God-like thing that's occurring right here.
Richard It's interesting. Moses has this experience where he has quite the incredible vision, and then he's tempted, and his response that is overcoming that temptation, and then God shows him everything.
Gerrit It is pretty profound. I mean, in some ways, you could see almost this parallel of the beginning of Jesus' ministry, where Satan tempts him and tempts him, and eventually, what is one of the temptations? He takes him up and shows him all of the kingdoms of the earth, and says, these are all yours, and if you worship me. In many ways, Moses is having the same experience that we know the only begotten is going to have.
Richard But even for us in a way, right? Even if you want to say in the premortal existence, we had a certain amount of understanding, and then we come down and we receive temptation, and then everything.
Gerrit If we can overcome that temptation. So it is kind of a microcosm of our own mortalities, our own lives, that we have an evil being in this creation and his millions, billions of spirits that follow him, that are all trying to undermine and destroy our allegiance to the truth. And if we can overcome that, then we can receive this.
Richard All that the Father has.
Gerrit We receive everything. Moses, as part of what he's going to see, is this, not only did he see every soul, there was not a soul that did not be whole. And their numbers were great, even numberless as the sands upon the seashore. I've been to the beach. Just the amount of sand I can't get out of my backpack for years at a time if that backpack went to the beach is enough to understand that there's a lot of, there's a lot of sand on that seashore. There is a lot of sand. And then here in verse 29, and he beheld many lands and each was called earth and there were inhabitants on the face thereof. And it came to pass that Moses called upon God saying, Tell me, I pray thee, why these things are so and by what thou made us them. And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses so that Moses stood in the presence of God and talked to them face to face.
Gerrit And the Lord God said unto Moses, For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me. And by the power of my word have I created them, which is mine only begotten son who is full of grace and truth. That's very similar terminology you're going to get from talking about section 93. And worlds without number have I created. And I also created them for mine own purpose. And by the son I created them, which is my only begotten. And the first man, verse 34, is a very profound verse, and I'm not entirely sure what it means. And the first man of all men I have called Adam, which is many. Which almost seems to be a suggestion that Adam is a type of a title rather than just simply a name. So he's explaining all these different worlds that have been created, all the different people that have been created. And then what he says to Moses, and this is, I think, so key in verse 35.
Gerrit But only an account of this earth and the inhabitants thereof give I unto you. For there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power, and there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man. But all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine, and I know them.
Richard This is incredibly heretical for the time. For the time now, always.
Gerrit Right now. Whenever you're listening, yes. It is saying, look, you're not going to get any argument from any other Christian that God created the universe, but that God created these other worlds that are inhabited with other people, is at best speculated at, and more likely than not seen as a blasphemy. But that's not the case. In part because the Bible does not expressly state that. So how can we believe it if the Bible doesn't expressly state it? Well, this revelation is saying that. So the thing that really strikes me, has always struck me about this, is there are innumerable worlds. There are innumerable unto man, but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them. How many is it that we actually don't have the ability to count them?
Gerrit If we were to just do a little bit of an exercise, right? How many stars are there in our galaxy? In the Milky Way galaxy, how many stars? Well, it's estimated that there's somewhere around 100 billion stars in our galaxy. 100 billion is hard for me to wrap my head around. I think the only people able to wrap their head around 100 billion are congressmen spending tax dollars. I don't know who else deals in 100 billion increments. Even Elon Musk is saying, that's too rich for my blood. It's something that's almost impossible for us to even comprehend that there's 100 billion stars in our galaxy. Now, there are various estimates about how many galaxies there are in the universe.
Gerrit One relatively recent estimate is that there are 2 trillion galaxies. There's 2 trillion galaxies, and if we use the Milky Way as kind of a baseline, and it's not gigantic and it's not small, let's say that they average 100 billion stars in each of them. And each of those stars has 8, 9, 10 worlds surrounding it, whatever, I mean, I don't know how many. We have no idea. You're getting pretty quickly into a level of size that becomes very difficult for mankind to number. And that seems to be what God is saying. You actually don't have the ability to number the worlds I've created. That number doesn't exist for you. It's like finding the end of pie, right? The non-repeating, non-terminating decimal.
Gerrit It just goes on and on and on and on and on. And it never actually stops because there isn't a number. How close 2 trillion times 100 billion at least is when you talk about stars in the universe?
Richard So this makes me think of Copernicus in 1515, who he comes out and says, all right, it's not the sun around the earth and us the center of all things. It's the earth around the sun. And that's not received necessarily very well.
Gerrit No. I mean, that's similar problems that people like Galileo Galilei are going to have. And the heliocentric solar system is already a real problem, right? That we revolve around the sun and not the sun around us.
Richard But 300 years later, Joseph is receiving a revelation, like you said, before we learn that deacons are supposed to pass the sacrament.
Gerrit Well, we do learn about it. We just don't have any yet. Because D&C 20 has been received, but we just don't have any deacons licenses from 1830.
Richard So no deacons passing the sacrament.
Gerrit They're also not doing fast offerings.
Richard They're not doing fast offerings.
Gerrit There isn't a bishop's messenger. There aren't bishops. There are no bishops. We are seven months away from bishops existing and Moses the Vision.
Richard So essentially, all right, we're going to have bishops in seven months. I'll explain bishops in seven months, but I want you to know that there are infinite worlds with infinite inhabitants on those worlds.
Gerrit Well, not technically infinite, right? Whatever that number is, mankind doesn't have the ability to count to it, but God knows them because they're known to him, which to me is just, I mean, talk about this. You know, what everyone views when they stare up at the starry sky and contemplate their place in this teeny universe. Well, the contemplation for a Latter-day Saint is very different in the sense that we aren't the only ones in this universe. And we don't need, you know, a NASA rover to find something on Mars to prove to us that a microscopic part of life might have lived somewhere else. We have a revelation from God saying there are inhabitants of other worlds and they are numberless to mankind. I mean, already he was using sands of the seashore just to describe our world.
Gerrit So, the third verse 35 where it says, Behold, only a count of this earth and the heavens there have given you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away. They are innumerable. So he's going to show Moses something, but it's not going to be all the worlds that have ever been in existence. Moses' response, Be merciful unto thy servant, O God, and tell me concerning this earth and the inhabitants thereof, and also the heavens, and then thy servant will be content. So Moses is, what he really wants is, show me literally everything in the universe. He's going to settle for, show me everything about the world. That's his negotiating plan. And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying, The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man, but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine. Again, this concept, how far does space expand?
Gerrit Well, the response is, it can't be numbered unto man. What's interesting is, in astrophysics, there is this discussion about infinite space. Is space really infinite? The response from several people, a lot smarter than me, who study this thing, is in some ways, it's infinite just in the fact that because light can only travel so fast, there would never be a time that light could get from the one end to the other, so you'd never actually be able to measure it. Or at least for all intents and purposes, it's infinite, even if it isn't, even if it's finite. It's finite in such a way that it's the effect of being infinite in that regard, because you wouldn't ever be able to measure the end of it. That doesn't mean there's no end of it, but you wouldn't be able to measure the end of it.
Gerrit So how would you know where to... I mean, everyone, including my mom, has already signed off. We started talking about... I started sounding like Carl Sagan for a minute, and you know, the boons. Anyway, and the moment that happened, everyone signed off, but it's fascinating to comprehend. There... And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof, even so shall another come, and there is no end to my works, neither to my words. For, behold, this is my work and my glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. We read that scripture all the time. All the time. It's one of the, you know, scripture mastery back in the day when we were in seminary. One of those things we pull out, oh, it's the only part of Moses that most of us have ever read, right? I mean, we're... Oh, scripture. Oh, yes, it's God's work and my glory to bring past the immortality and eternal life.
Gerrit The context of him saying that is after God has just shown Moses the expanse, not only of this world, but he at least understands, God has told him that there are worlds that have no number. There are inhabitants of those worlds that can't be numbered. And after explaining that, God says, this is my work and my glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. It is a fascinating thing. I think many traditional Christians, and with due credit, will look up at the stars and give all glory to God. Frankly, it's hard to study the cosmos and not come away saying, someone did this. The Earth doesn't just happen to be exactly the perfect distance from the sun to have a perfect eclipse.
Gerrit That seems kind of planned, right? I mean, you know, an atheist on the other side will say, well, you know, no, it's like one in a 70 trillion chance that it would be like that. So you're telling me a one in 70 trillion chance is better than just thinking there might be God? I mean, seems like God is a better plan in that regard. But at any rate, this, the idea that when you, when you study the cosmos, it makes you glory God, I think that that's that's shared among many Christians. But it's actually not the glory that God is interested in. He's not interested in us being overawed by his power because of all the wonderful things he created. Except that, if that all causes us to want to be like him. Because God's real glory is the glory of any parent.
Gerrit I want to save my children. What brings God glory? What brings God happiness? What brings God peace? What brings God peace is every one of his children that's able to become like him. Now Joseph has no idea about this yet. Joseph hasn't been taught that in the celestial kingdom, people are going to become like God. When he reads the words to bring to pass the immortality, okay, resurrection, that makes sense. But eternal life is something that Joseph Smith is going to learn very clearly what eternal life is. Eternal life isn't just living forever. That's what immortality is. Eternal life isn't just living forever with God. That's what Christian heaven is. Eternal life is becoming like God. That's something Joseph doesn't understand yet.
Gerrit Something that he will understand. But this is so early. So early. If you had no date on this revelation, if you found this revelation among a scattered stack of Joseph Smith's papers, you would probably say, 1844, 1843. This has got to be coming at least 1843, maybe 1844. Maybe, but well, he's doing Book of Abraham in 42, so maybe you put it there. The Book of Abraham is obviously going to have a lot more enlightenment on many of these questions too, but the fact of the matter is this is so profound and so early, and Moses is given this vision where he sees everything, but more important than seeing everything, he sees the purpose of God in creating things. Now, in a traditional conversation about, we've joked about it before, that for a Christian, at first, nothing existed but God.
Gerrit Nothing. Ex nihilo creation meaning that literally nothing but God existed. Now, of course, with Trinitarian theology, God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit all existed. They were co-equal, they were co-eternal. The son was eternally being begotten from the father in that theology. But in any case, in the beginning, nothing existed but God. Not time, not space, not matter floating around. Nothing existed, just God. And then God created everything. Which leads to two questions. You know, the first we joked around about, like St. Augustine was asked, well, what was God doing before that? And St. Augustine said he was creating hell for people, asked questions like that. But the more obvious question is, why does God create any of it at all? And a standard Christian answer to this would be for his glory.
Gerrit To demonstrate God's glory, he created everything. Now, that starts to break down a little bit when we start to ask questions like, well, if this world was created for God's glory, why is it so terrible? And to which a traditional Christian might respond, well, as Jonathan Edwards said, that in order for God to demonstrate his justice, there had to be both evil and the righteous. And you get an explanation from Calvinists and other Christian theologians about what is going on with why there's so much evil in the world. But it's actually not an answer to the question of why, right? Why did God create this world that seems to have so much wickedness and suffering in it? The response to show the glory of God. Well, okay, that's more of the what if you're saying it.
Gerrit There's not really the explanation of the why. Why? Why does God need that glory? Now, of course, right now, they're saying to me, only a sinner like you would question God's glory. That's the reason why you deserve to burn in hell.
Richard Or that God created it perfectly, Adam and Eve, they fell and that fall is the central reason why things aren't they.
Gerrit And yet that argument only goes so far because since God made Adam and Eve out of nothing, God already knew, since God knows everything, that they were going to fall.
Richard So make a better Adam or Eve.
Gerrit In which case, put better double A batteries in the Adam and Eve that you're making. Make them allergic to fruit. Do something other than condemning the world to billions of people suffering the way that they do. And if you ask that further question, you're likely to get, you know, we don't know. And look, I respect that. There are lots of questions in Latter-day Saint Theology where I have to say, I don't know. But this is a pretty big question. And it's a question that reiterates itself over and over and over again because this world is terrible. There is so much suffering, so much injustice, so much that cannot just be blithely explained away by, oh, yeah, well, you know, actions have consequences. There is an inherent aspect of suffering about mortality that often causes people to question the goodness of God.
Gerrit If God is so good, then why is it so terrible? Well, I think focusing on the wrong aspect of God's glory, what gives God his glory is one of those reasons. If God's glory is in what he has created and that we show God, we glory God by being righteous, by praising him, then in the end, that seems to be fairly shallow. But if the purpose of creation is because we are all the same type of being that God is, and that God himself came to be who he is, then it is only natural that God our Father wants us, through the same process, to become like he is, that his work and his glory, what is God's glory?
Gerrit Making his children like him. Now, Joseph is certainly not going to understand that in 1830. And I don't think he's going to understand it until he has more revealed to him. Think about what we learn in Doctrine and Covenants, Section 93, about how we're the same type of being God is, and how Jesus himself didn't have all power and knowledge, and had to learn and to grow. Think about the other things that are taught in Doctrine and Covenants, Section 76, that will eventually be taught in things like the King Follett Sermon. Those things are yet to come, but they are all given this kind of, you know, shout out that they're coming forward in Moses Chapter 1. This revelation is so early, like I said, and so profound. It from 1830 changes Latter-day Saint cosmology to be entirely different than the rest of Christianity. And the relationship between mankind and God is immediately on a completely different trajectory.
Gerrit I'm not saying that Joseph fully understood all those things, or maybe he did. In any case, it's going to be a lot longer before Joseph is going to take what he's learned in Moses and other revelations and express it in a kind of sermon form that fully explains our relationship to God as eternal beings that are children of God that have the potential to become like God. Hopefully, as you study the Book of Moses, you can have that same kind of profound experience that you can just contemplate for a moment how much God has done in the creation of the universe for the sole purpose, not of glorying in himself, not of saying, look at how many Jupiters I created, but of look at how many of my children I've brought back to me, not just to live with me, but to be like me.
Gerrit And that is a powerful, powerful thought. And hopefully, as you study, you can have that contemplation as well. Thank you so much for joining us this week.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth Podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.

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People are only listening to this one after they've already listened to all of those.

GerritBanter

And you, sir, are no Truman Madsen. Which is fair, fair and also true.

GerritBanter

I'm telling you right now, I felt the Holy Spirit testify to me that this happened, that Elijah was prophet of God and that this took place.

GerritInsight

So there's actually no way for a prophet to win with a critic.

GerritInsight

I think the only people able to wrap their head around 100 billion are congressmen spending tax dollars.

GerritBanter

So essentially, all right, we're going to have bishops in seven months. I'll explain bishops in seven months, but I want you to know that there are infinite worlds with infinite inhabitants on those worlds.

RichardBanter

Because God's real glory is the glory of any parent.

GerritInsight

Eternal life isn't just living forever with God. That's what Christian heaven is. Eternal life is becoming like God.

GerritInsight

In which case, put better double A batteries in the Adam and Eve that you're making. Make them allergic to fruit.

GerritBanter

More from this episode

Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.

Claim check

What critics say, and what the episode found
The Book of Moses is just part of Joseph's Bible translation, so it isn't really a revelation.
The Book of Mormon must be man-made because it answers questions people were asking in the 19th century.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.

Take it to class

Ready to copy into a lesson or a text

Moses 1 was revealed in June 1830, before there were apostles, high priests or bishops, yet it already teaches that we are children of God and that God has created worlds without number.

Moses cast Satan out only when he called on the name of the Only Begotten, a reminder of how central Jesus Christ is to standing against the adversary.

Moses 1:39 comes right after God shows Moses endless worlds: his work and glory isn't in how much he has made, but in bringing his children home to become like him.

Eternal life is more than living forever (immortality) and more than living with God; it is becoming like God.

Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.

Banter bin

The running jokes, for people who skip ahead
The audience: Gerrit's mom (and Rachel's mom)Gerrit thanks everyone who has listened beyond his mom and Rachel's mom, and later says even his mom signed off when he started sounding like Carl Sagan (1:02, callback 2:35, 47:18).
Season 74 of SurvivorThey didn't plan season two because they didn't think there'd be a season one (1:02).
Every other podcast is betterListeners only reach this one after Joel Osteen and multiple Catholic podcasts; "still better than Gerrit's" (1:53).
You, sir, are no Truman MadsenRichard's mission tapes of Truman Madsen get Gerrit's preemptive self-roast (2:48).
The King Follett finaleGerrit says they'll do the King Follett Sermon someday, probably on the last podcast ever before retirement (24:56).
Congressmen and Elon MuskOnly congressmen spending tax dollars can wrap their heads around 100 billion (40:08).
No deacons, no fast offeringsRichard and Gerrit pile on everything the 1830 Church didn't have yet: deacons, fast offerings, bishop's messengers, bishops (43:22).
Better double-A batteriesGerrit's fix for the traditional fall: make Adam and Eve allergic to fruit (55:23).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

Your question could be next week’s episode
Questions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
General ConferenceGeneral Conference talks that cite a scripture read in this episode.

In General Conference

Talks from the latest General Conference that cite a scripture this episode reads or names on air
October 2026 General Conference · cites Moses 1Come to the Lord in His Holy HouseElder Gerrit W. GongElder Gong lays out three doctrinal foundations for temple worship: eternal families, moral agency, and the Holy Spirit of Promise, which makes honored covenants binding.October 2026 General Conference · cites D&C 20Divine AppointmentsPresident Timothy L. FarnesPresident Farnes recalls a discouraging day as a young priesthood leader when then-Elder Dallin H.October 2026 General Conference · cites D&C 20Spiritual ImmunityElder Christian C. ChigbunduElder Chigbundu, recalling the talk of "immunity" during the COVID-19 pandemic, describes building spiritual immunity through four small and simple things: scripture study, prayer, the sacrament, and keeping covenants, including temple worship.

Summaries, themes and lessons for every talk are on What Did They Say?

Go deeperWhere to read more.

Go deeper

Deep dives the episode points toward
Compare the earliest manuscript of Moses 1 with the Pearl of Great Price text you have today (10:12).
Read Moses 1 alongside D&C 93 and see how the phrase "full of grace and truth" carries across (37:24).
What does "the first man of all men I have called Adam, which is many" mean? Gerrit admits he isn't sure (37:24).
Trace the idea of becoming like God from Moses 1:39 through D&C 76, D&C 93 and the King Follett Sermon (57:37).
SOT Litner · S2E1.