SOT LitnerStandard of Truth listener companion
Finally answering the question
S2E12 · Abraham Lincoln and the Latter-day Saints Part 3
0:00 / 1:19:55
13 chapters
← All episodes
Standard of Truth · Season 2 · Episode 12 · 1:19:55

Abraham Lincoln and the Latter-day Saints Part 3

Lincoln did check out a Book of Mormon from the Library of Congress, but at the same time he checked out an anti-Mormon exposé and a book by a professor who wanted the Mormons "extinguished."

Press play above. The page follows along.
The question ·

Did the Book of Mormon influence Abraham Lincoln, changing his view of Latter-day Saints and leading to the Emancipation Proclamation?

Richard

Richard and Gerrit finally answer the question that started this three-part series: did the Book of Mormon change Abraham Lincoln's mind about the Saints and lead him to the Emancipation Proclamation? Gerrit walks through a popular book that makes that claim and shows why historians don't accept it, starting with the other books Lincoln checked out, including John Hyde's exposé and Jonathan Turner's attack on the Saints. He then lays out what Lincoln actually did in 1862: Utah raised troops for the Union, while Lincoln signed the Homestead Act and the Morrill Anti-Bigamy Act and later sent troops to occupy Utah. Gerrit lands on a balanced view: Lincoln saved the nation and was also a Republican wary of Mormons, and both can be true.

Who comes upAbraham LincolnBrigham YoungJohn HydeJonathan Baldwin TurnerMary Todd LincolnOrville BrowningPatrick Edward ConnorMartin Van BurenJoseph SmithRobert E. LeeAndrew Johnson
Now playing · 0:38

Finally answering the question

Richard reminds listeners what started the series, and Gerrit gets teased for two hours of setup.

Chapters

Tap a chapter to jump there

Transcript

121 moments · tap a time to play from there
Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, where we explore the early days of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and gain rare historical insights into how a young farm boy was able to establish a new church and grow it by way of visions, manifestations and miracles.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. In this week's podcast, we're doing part three about Abraham Lincoln and the Republican Party and the Civil War. And the thing that kicked off this three-part podcast was a question around the influence of Latter-day Saints and the Book of Mormon on Abraham Lincoln. And there are some fairly dramatic claims that are made. And so in the previous two episodes, you did a lot of context and setting the table for kind of what we want to talk about today.
Gerrit I feel like that's you saying that I said nothing at all.
Richard Well, you said a lot of things for two hours.
Gerrit But that didn't-
Richard And now we're here.
Gerrit But didn't actually answer the question.
Richard That's right. And now we're here to answer the question.
Gerrit I think a lot of Richard, PhDs in business, right? So he likes it to be efficient.
Richard I like to cut to the quick.
Gerrit Let's go. Yeah, and where's my money? He wants to-
Richard It's Japanese rice tariffs.
Gerrit He wants to talk about rice tariffs. He wants money and power, which is why he has affiliated himself with a podcast that has of yet lost thousands of dollars.
Richard That's correct. I love driving three hours round trip to make no money and say four words.
Gerrit Yeah. And there's not even a bankruptcy that can bail you out of this. Can I declare bankruptcy? Not for this business. Anyway, I think we need to delay the groundwork though, because a lot of that is relatively unfamiliar to a 19th century.
Richard To a modern modern 19th century history. I was teasing, absolutely.
Gerrit Well, you say that, but I know you meant it. I did mean it. And I think while there have been various claims that people have made, you know, this is a natural question, like I started on the very first part of part one. It is a natural thing. I know that, you know, I was a huge student of history as a teenager. I mean, when I was 14, I was reading full length histories of the Civil War. It was one of the ones I studied the most. I still remember reading Colonel Arthur Fremantle's Civil War diary, who was a member of the British cold stream guards that had come as an observer to the United States during the middle of the Civil War in 1863 and 64, and him commenting on the movements of Lee's army, because he's an observer of the Confederate States of America. I read that when I was like 14.
Richard I was playing Mario 3.
Gerrit Well, I was also playing Mario 3. Let's not get ahead of ourselves, okay?
Richard I was only playing Mario 3.
Gerrit Well, and that's why you got a better job. I understand the impetus because I very much remember when I was studying the Civil War thinking, I wonder what the Latter-day Saints did. Of course, the more I studied the Civil War, the more respect I came to have for Abraham Lincoln for his courageous, not only efforts to free the slaves, but also to keep the union together and to persevere through all the just difficult personal and national tragedy. So I came to love Abraham Lincoln. And so I had the exact same thought in my head that every other Latter-day Saint would have when they're studying that era. And that is, I love Abraham Lincoln. I love Brigham Young. I'm sure that they got along like the greatest of friends, you know, beat, beat, beat, and, and no. But, and that was kind of a shock to me as I started studying.
Gerrit Really, it was when I was in graduate school studying, you know, actual documents rather than just reading what someone else had to say that I came to understand fully the nuances of that relationship. But there are things that sometimes people point to, to try to make the relationship between Latter-day Saints and, and Abraham Lincoln closer because that's what they all want. Look, I'm that person. I want that. I love Abraham Lincoln, as I've said, I, I, I always have. That was, I, I know that that's what everyone would say, but for me, I, you know, as I studied his life, I, I came to respect him even more. And so of course I wanted him and Joseph Smith to have run into each other in Springfield one time, you know, and I wanted him to, to think that Brigham Young was, was a great guy. I mean, of course I wanted that because then the two things that I cared about, my American history and my Latter-day Saint history, I could have both of them at the same time and they would actually build on one another.
Gerrit And, and that's, you know, something that, that I wanted, but sometimes what we want to believe and what happened, they're not always the same thing. So one of the things that I think drives this conversation and probably the primary thing is the idea that Abraham Lincoln in late 1861, he has checked out of the Library of Congress for him a copy of the Book of Mormon. And he's going to keep that copy of the Book of Mormon for several months. He's going to keep it for, I think, eight months into 1862. Now, the fact that he has the book checked out is not really evidence of him reading it, as anyone who's checked out a lot of books would tell you. You check out books, that doesn't always mean that you read them. I know that anyone listening right now who's ever checked out any of my books has said, I can tell you that you check out books and you don't read them.
Gerrit But that has led some people to say, well, if Lincoln had the book that long, then maybe he had it because he was reading it. He was pondering the messages that were in it, and maybe that is where he gained the courage to transform the Civil War from a war that was just about preserving the Union to signing and writing the Emancipation Proclamation and declaring the end of slavery. Again, I see why an American Latter-day Saint wants to believe that. I would love to believe the Abraham Lincoln that I so revere also revered some of the things I believe. That brings us into a proximity with one another. It makes God even more present in both my national history and my religious history. So, you know, there's a pretty prominent book that's been written about this and well read that makes this and other claims about Abraham Lincoln's relationship with Latter-day Saints and primarily using this example that Lincoln checked the Book of Mormon out and that he read it and over the course of time that the messages of the Book of Mormon not only transformed how he thought about Latter-day Saints, making him think much more positively about Latter-day Saints, but also transformed how he thought about slavery and the nation as a whole.
Gerrit In fact, this book goes so far as to claim that the Book of Mormon is the reason that Lincoln saw the United States as having a covenant relationship with God and that that covenant had been broken and it needed to be renewed. Again, I understand why a Latter-day Saint wants to hear that, but it's important to understand that there are arguments that are academic in nature and there are arguments that are not. We've done this with a lot of podcasts. We looked at a so-called documentary that didn't actually follow any documents, and made scandalous, ridiculous claims in order to try to prove a theological point. In that sense, the author of that documentary had deliberately tried to falsify information in some regard or to make outlandish claims to try to destroy people's faith.
Gerrit And so there was not, it wasn't a good faith effort. I mean, when you say someone's trying to destroy faith, yeah. Where's my rim shot on that, Richard? I need you to say it yelling yes from the other seat. But we've also looked at other examinations, such as like the White Horse Prophecy and the vision that Wilford Woodruff records that's attributed to John Taylor. In those cases, people were believing them and endorsing them, but not in a bad faith effort, at least not mostly, but because they wanted to believe what they said. So there really are different ways to examine this, but as historians, what do we look at? We look at what you can actually demonstrate through the documents. And one of the claims that's made by this book is that Lincoln goes through a personal transformation because he's reading the Book of Mormon.
Gerrit And here's some of the evidence that is given of that personal transformation. At one point, the book is going to make a claim that it's possible Lincoln was actually clandestinely reading the Book of Mormon, and it was being mistaken for another book, and that was causing the transformation. Richard, you want to read that?
Richard Yeah, sure. I immediately thought of something. During Lincoln's months of conversation, eyewitnesses testified that they had seen him, whether in his office or in an obscure corner of a steamboat transport, reading a dog-eared pocket copy of the New Testament. He did dog-ear his pages. I thought to myself, I wonder if these witnesses thought carefully enough at the books he was reading. Perhaps it was not only the New Testament that he was engrossed in. My mind also recalled the true account of one witness who might have seen the president during the thick of his process of crystallization. A witness who might have stumbled in upon Lincoln and his Book of Mormon experience. Exactly eight days before issuing the first draft of the Emancipation Proclamation and exactly fifteen days before returning his Book of Mormon to the library, Lincoln had one of the longest nights of his life. He locked himself in his study and asked not to be disturbed. He was eventually reading and studying something until daybreak. That morning he received a knock on the door of his study when he realized it was his friend Orville Browning.
Richard He made a brief exception to his earlier order to be left alone and permitted him to come in. Browning was alarmed when he saw Lincoln's appearance. According to Browning, he looked weary, careworn and troubled. I shook hands with him and asked how he was. He said tolerably well. Browning told the president he must take better care of himself. Lincoln would not release the powerful grip he had formed with Browning, his huge hand enveloping the hand of his friend. Then according to Browning, Lincoln replied in a very tender and touching tone, Browning, I must die sometime. He looked very sad, and there was a cadence of deep sadness in his voice. We parted, both of us with tears in our eyes. So this is one of the examples where he gives of somebody potentially coming upon Abraham Lincoln when he could have possibly been reading the Book of Mormon.
Gerrit At least when he was studying and deep in thought for something. And I think that, you know, you can kind of get the feel as you read that portion, all of the might-haves and the possibilities of. Is it possible that Abraham Lincoln was studying the Book of Mormon during that time? Well, again, as a historian, when you're talking about, is something possible? Well, of course. I mean, are things possible? Yes. But historians, when they're doing history, don't default to the least likely scenario. The least likely scenario indeed sometimes does happen. It is a point of fact that sometimes, you know, the percentages, you know, if something happens one in a hundred times, there is a chance that you will be there on that one time that it happens. But it's not what you assume happens. So that's why historians base their arguments on the basis of not of conjecture but on documents that demonstrate something different.
Richard So there's one thing where it kind of makes quite a bit of a jump here, just a couple of paragraphs down. After Lincoln had made his decision on emancipation, even his own wife questioned this profound change from his earlier season promises. She asked, will you really go through with it? With a glance to heaven and then back to Mary, he simply replied, I am a man under orders, I cannot do otherwise. By this time, his closest friends, as well as a growing number of general populace, would have agreed with the Shekharu lawyer who declared, you may depend upon it. The Lord runs Lincoln. To which a local Methodist preacher responded, calling the statement, the true theory and solution of this terrible war. And this, I believe, was likely due in no small degree to the Book of Mormon.
Gerrit Right, so that's a huge statement. And it also suggests that what Lincoln is wrestling with is whether or not to make the decision to free the slaves at all. Historians of Lincoln's life would make the counter argument that Lincoln is certainly not wrestling with the idea of whether or not slaves should be freed. In fact, he's actually racing against the radicals, the more radical Republicans in the Congress who themselves want to pass an Emancipation Act in the Congress because they think Lincoln is moving too slowly. Lincoln is unsure what to do. In an earlier speech, he had said that if he could save the Union by freeing the slaves, he would do that. If he could save the Union by not freeing the slaves, he would do that. If he could save the Union by freeing some slaves and leaving others enslaved, he would do that. I mean, the goal of trying to save the Union is also very much in his mind.
Gerrit And so the author here wants to try to argue that Lincoln came to the decision to write the Emancipation Proclamation to free the slaves because of his study of the Book of Mormon. So there's a lot of problems with that. First, we don't even know whether or not he studied the Book of Mormon. Second, Lincoln's writings and life demonstrate that he had an aversion for and despise slavery long before 1862. And is in regular conversation with his cabinet and with members of Congress about whether or not to issue something like the Emancipation Proclamation. The fear of issuing it too early was, since the North had done terribly in battle in 1862 and 61, it seemed like it was the Hail Mary Pass at the end of the first half of a football game.
Gerrit You lose battle after battle after battle to Robert E. Lee, and then you followed up by saying, oh yeah, and by the way, all the slaves in the South are free. Well, you may want to have some kind of victory to demonstrate that with. And in fact, that's what Lincoln will do. He'll wait, even though he has this first draft written in this early stage, he will wait until the air quotes victory at the Battle of Antietam, which is really more of a draw. Lee invades the North and outside of Frederick, Maryland, he's going to have this cataclysmic battle. It's the single bloodiest day of the Civil War. And Lee's troops are forced to withdraw. And so the Union calls it a great victory. I mean, point of fact, the battle itself is basically a stalemate. But it does stop the invasion of the North. And it's decided that on the basis of that, that the Emancipation Proclamation is going to be issued on the basis of that victory.
Gerrit So there's a lot of overly simplistic things going on there in that argument. And attributing that to the fact that Lincoln had the Book of Mormon, when there are no sources that say that, is a very odd thing. Lincoln, as the author notes, was a voracious reader. He's reading all kinds of things. And he is not a spring chicken either. He has been someone involved in the fight to at least end the expansion of slavery for decades of his life. To attribute to him the idea of emancipating the slaves during the midst of the Civil War, the fact that he had wrestled with God while reading the Book of Mormon, is again something I would love to believe. But I would only love to believe it if it was actually true, rather than something that was kind of a spiritual twinkie, something that sure sounded great, but didn't actually fill the need of truth.
Richard So the timing of this matters, as you said. He checks out a copy of the Book of Mormon from the Library of Congress in around November of 1861. And so he has it for several months. What are some of the things that are happening? Because this kind of jumps... Now we're skipping ahead, to be fair to the author here. We're kind of skipping around a little bit, but there are some things that happened between him checking out that book and the Emancipation Proclamation.
Gerrit Right. So especially vis-a-vis Latter-day Saints. And so I think the author wants to argue that Lincoln... Well, the author does argue, not wants to. The author argues that having checked out the Book of Mormon, Lincoln's stance towards the Latter-day Saints becomes softened, even though his party was very anti-Mormon, that he becomes softer towards the Mormons himself because of reading the Book of Mormon, and that the Book of Mormon, in turn, inspired Lincoln to become a different person, someone that would issue the Emancipation Proclamation. So one of the first things that you'd want to examine if someone was making the claim that Lincoln read something and that that changed what he thought or what he believed is you'd want to examine whether or not he ever said that. So that's the first thing you'd look to see. If someone is going to say, you know, think of Joseph Smith. We know that something inspired Joseph Smith. How do we know that something inspired Joseph Smith?
Gerrit Because Joseph Smith said in multiple accounts, I read James 1 5 and never had any passage of Scripture come with more power. That we know that James inspired Joseph Smith. Now, maybe there were other biblical passages that also inspired Joseph Smith, and one could speculate and theorize on it. You know, I think the fact that Joseph had a hard time talking about whether it was fire that came from heaven or whether it was light that came from heaven was because Joseph must have been reading in Isaiah about the everlasting burnings that constitute God because Joseph later in his life uses the term from Isaiah, everlasting burnings. So that actually is probably, you can see how someone could build an argument that Joseph was probably also inspired by Isaiah.
Richard And it might be true.
Gerrit And it might be true. The problem is, if I begin teaching it, not that there's a slight possibility that it might be true, but as it's actually more likely than not, well, I'm discounting the actual evidence that I have. And that is Joseph is more than willing to tell us exactly what did inspire him. And he says it multiple times. So why would I discount what he actually says for what I wish he would have said? And an even further question than that is, why is it that I wish he would have said something else? Is it because I, you know, wrote up and I didn't? If you're going to try to find it, you won't find it. But let's say I wrote a commentary on Isaiah. And is that the reason why? I hope that Joseph was also inspired by Isaiah. If it was, then now my motives are actually coloring how I'm interpreting history. In this case, the author, a Latter-day Saint, very much wants to make this case because he sees Lincoln as such an incredible champion, which we all do.
Gerrit I would say almost universally American Latter-day Saints respect, if not revere, Abraham Lincoln. So that's not the issue. It's not the issue that, oh, this author really respects Lincoln. Everybody does. It becomes the question of, in attempting to make that connection, is more harm done than good? What do I mean by that? Well, I have a great deal of experience counseling with people who have had faith crises, if you want to call it something else, where their faith has been shaken and sometimes shattered because something that they always thought was true ended up not actually being accurate. I mean, we've talked about this with the Word of Wisdom. If you really believe that Joseph Smith never drank any alcohol, and that's one of the bases of your testimonies that I won't ever drink because even when they were breaking bone out of Joseph Smith's leg, he refused to drink alcohol, and I'm going to be like Joseph, I don't know, if you feel like that.
Gerrit And then you find out that Joseph Smith did drink alcohol. Well, your world can come crashing down. And it's because you placed your faith in something that wasn't actually true in the first place. The spirit can only testify of truth. So it's important that while we can hear things that might make us feel better about what we believe, it's important that we investigate whether or not it actually is the case. Because testimony is built upon simply good feelings, but things that aren't actually factually correct are sandy foundations. And in the world we live in, the rains and the floods beat down. And you might be in conversation with someone one day and try to say to them, you know what, the Book of Mormon is so powerful, even Abraham Lincoln read it, and it changed his mind.
Gerrit And the response is going to be not just the general mockery that all of us have to endure whenever we say we believe, and then multiple comments about polygamy, obviously. It's going to be that you've been duped, you've been defrauded, that no historian, no one with any historical accolades at all, respected in the historical community, believes that. And I mean inside the church, and I mean outside the church. It's not just non-Latter-day Saint historians who hear this claim that the Book of Mormon influenced Abraham Lincoln's politics and personal feelings, that see that as a completely, not only unsupported claim, but a reckless, straw-grasping claim. But Latter-day Saint historians who desperately want to believe that Abraham Lincoln really believed, they also see it as wholly erroneous.
Gerrit There's a reason why you wouldn't be able to find a historian at the Church History Library who believes that this is the scenario that happened. There's a reason why, and it's not because they don't love Abraham Lincoln. Heavens, we have historians at the Church History Library who used to work at the Lincoln Library. They love Abraham Lincoln. It's not a matter of they don't respect Abraham Lincoln. It's a matter of facts, and facts are sometimes not able to be bent to the whims of our emotions, and this is one of those cases. Part of that claim is that because he read the Book of Mormon, it transformed what Lincoln thought about the Latter-day Saints. Now, if you remember what we read from our last podcast, Wilford Woodruff doesn't feel like there's a whole lot of transformation going on. He certainly feels well into 1862 that the federal government is antagonistic towards the Saints.
Gerrit It's a very important thing whenever you're talking about a persecuted minority group, that you allow that minority group to explain what their feelings are to the majority, not the other way around. It's easy to pat them on the head and say, I'm sure you're just fine with President Buchanan. Well, the Latter-day Saints will let you know that they're not. No, but Buchanan hasn't really done anything. I don't really care what you think Buchanan has or hasn't done. This is sometimes the reaction of people to the fact that Latter-day Saints hate Martin Van Buren. I've actually been in academic conferences where people have said, well, that it's irrational that the Latter-day Saints hate Martin Van Buren. I mean, what was he supposed to do? They expect him to just send an army to Missouri. I mean, that's preposterous. Martin Van Buren couldn't have done that. The Latter-day Saints are irrational to be upset. Well, that might be true, but it also is a meaningless observation when it comes to how do Latter-day Saints feel about Martin Van Buren?
Gerrit You can say all day long that Martin Van Buren couldn't have done anything. But that doesn't help the Latter-day Saint, who buried their child in Hans Mill because Missouri state militia murdered him. That is of small comfort to the people that have actually suffered those horrors. And I think that's something that you have to do here as well. It's not for an author to tell us that the Latter-day Saints were fine with Abraham Lincoln because he read the Book of Mormon and became their champion. It's for Latter-day Saints themselves at the time, through their records, through their diaries, through their journals, to tell us what they thought. And the reality is, the second piece of evidence a historian would look at at a claim like this is, well, if you're claiming that Abraham Lincoln read something, and that's what changed his opinion of the Latter-day Saints and of slavery, then I guess we need to find out whatever else Abraham Lincoln read during the same time, right?
Gerrit And yes, it's true that Lincoln has a Book of Mormon checked out of the Library of Congress. But he also has several other things checked out of the Library of Congress. For instance, he has checked out one book from a non-Latter-day Saint author called The Mormons. Now, this book is a fairly complimentary book written by John Gunnison. John Gunnison is an army engineer who goes out to Utah early, and he will write this early history of Utah territory. And not all of it. I think he thinks he's being flattering of the Mormons. He's on very friendly terms with the Latter-day Saints. But there are certainly some aspects of his book that a Latter-day Saint would be like, thanks, but no thanks, John. It's still a relatively positive examination of the Mormons, kind of diffusing the whole, they're this evil, ugly other that you have to be afraid of.
Gerrit But that's not the only thing that Abraham Lincoln reads. He's actually going to have two other books that he checks out. And again, I don't know whether or not he read them, but he checked out at the same time. Yeah, he at least has the same probability of having read these as he has the probability of having read some of these other statements. So for instance, he checks out of the Library of Congress a book called Mormonism. Well, you might already guess that a book called Mormonism isn't exactly written by a Mormon, right? This is written by John Hyde. Hyde has a lengthy diatribe in this book, which is seen as he's writing as an expose. He's writing it, attacking the Latter-day Saints and primarily attacking plural marriage. The full title of the book is Mormonism, Its Leaders and Designs. I mean, the title of that book already tells you what he thinks.
Gerrit And John Hyde is going to claim that he has all kinds of insider knowledge. Formerly a Mormon elder and resident of Salt Lake City. So I'm going to give you the inside scoop. To the honest believers in Mormonism, my friends, in writing this following work, I was not actuated by a base design of helping to malign and unpopular people, nor by the unworthy one of administering to mere idle curiosity. I wrote it neither to feed public prejudice nor to supply public scandal. I wrote it for you, to you, and therefore I dedicate it. I know your sincerity. I also know your delusion. As sincerely deceived as yourselves, I have preceded you to Salt Lake City. Some of the things of which I saw there, with the reflections they have suggested, are contained herein. Of the much that ought to be said, I have endeavored to say little. The subject, however, is by no means exhausted. While it is better to learn by personal experience than ever remain ignorant, it is far wiser to profit by the experience of others.
Gerrit Although the practices of individuals cannot determine the principles of communities, yet when these practices are criminal, and those individuals assume to be prophets and apostles, all men ought to hesitate before committing themselves to their jurisdiction, believing their pretensions or imitating their examples. So, I mean, how does John Hyde actually feel?
Richard So he read this one right after the Emancipation Proclamation, probably.
Gerrit It's during the same time period that it could have been affected, right? It's interesting to learn the peculiarities of a remote nation or an ancient age. It's far more important, however, that we should correctly understand the character and practices of any extraordinary people in our own day. Mormonism and Mormons are subjects that not only deserve attention or excite interest, but demand the most serious consideration. The meanness of its origin, the singularity in its history, its present anomalous position, its still increasing dissemination, the mysterious influence it exercises over its followers and its ultimate destiny should commend its investigation to all persons. As a curious example of successful imposture and a stern proof of human fanaticism, it must interest the philosopher. As a system of absolute autocracy in the center of the republic, it must attract the attention of politicians.
Gerrit As ensuring human misery and consummating human degradation in the cases of thousands of credulous men and women and thousands more helpless children, it should be noticed by the philanthropist. As a religious delusion increasing very rapidly and entailing not only present suffering but eternal loss on its infatuated adherence, it ought to arouse the divine to thought and action. So John Hyde is making a very eloquent case that every single American should have a real problem with Mormonism. Now, he said politicians should take note of this autocracy that has sprung up within our republic. Did Abraham Lincoln read those lines? Did he read them and it caused him to think something's got to be done about those Mormons? Maybe I need to send an army to occupy Utah even though Brigham Young has declared that he is loyal to the Union.
Gerrit Maybe I need to send an army. You can see the problem here. As easily as I can speculate that perhaps he read the Book of Mormon and that changed what he thought, he could just as easily have read other things and that changed what he thought. The reality is over the course of the next several months, the actions that Lincoln is going to take vis-à-vis the Mormons in Salt Lake are not seen as positive by the Mormons. Let me give you a rundown of those as a for instance. In the spring of 1861, there is a very singular occurrence that takes place. Now, the Army has not yet made it, they haven't yet occupied Utah, but the War Department, with Abraham Lincoln's direction, they send a telegram directly to Brigham Young.
Gerrit Now, Brigham Young used to be the governor of Utah Territory until 1857. Well, it's 1862 now, so we're five years removed from that. But of course, he is the head of the church and nearly everyone living in the territory are members of the church. And the telegram asks if the Mormons would be willing to raise a company of troops to protect the overland stage and mail routes. Now, that request comes in the spring of 1862, and Brigham Young is going to respond immediately. He's going to immediately request that the company of troops be fitted out, and they go into what is today modern day Wyoming to guard the overland stage and mail route. Now, part of the reason why is the regular army that had been guarding it was at all been called away, right? So you're utilizing Latter-day Saints, and these troops are troops in service of the federal government, the Union Army during the American Civil War.
Gerrit And these are the only troops that as a unified body anyway are going to fight for the Union during the Civil War from the territory of Utah. Now, there's going to be individuals from the territory of Utah who will go fight, but as far as the Latter-day Saints' involvement in the Civil War, there's not very much for those reasons we already stated. So you would think at that moment, the fact that Lincoln has requested troops directly through Brigham Young, Brigham Young has immediately supplied them, that that would then be the demonstration that there's a kind of detente between Latter-day Saints and Abraham Lincoln, personally, if not the federal government. What greater evidence of loyalty could you have than the fact that you're sending troops to fight in a Civil War? It seems like that's... Well, I'll show you, we're fighting. We did exactly what you told us to do. We didn't just not secede, we're now providing troops.
Gerrit Now, it's not very many. It's only 160 troops. It's not a big deal at all. But it is the only request the federal government makes of them, and they then respond. But that idea that it's a representation of this kind of new thinking that Lincoln has about the Mormons, and perhaps even has that new thinking because he read the Book of Mormon, again, is really kind of belied by the fact that he's reading other things. One of the other things that he has read just recently is...
Richard Or at least checked out.
Gerrit Yes, possibly have read. Maybe he hasn't read it. Is a book written by a fellow Illinoian that Lincoln likely knows. That is Mormonism in all its ages or the rise, progress and causes of Mormonism with the biography of its author and founder, Joseph Smith Jr. by Professor JB. Turner, Illinois College, Jacksonville, Illinois. You have an idea of what Turner thinks because the quote he includes on the front page is And that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death. I'm not sure what he thinks about Joseph Smith before opening the pages of the book, but I'm guessing it's going to be negative given the fact that he decided to quote Deuteronomy saying that false prophets should be put to death. And what happened to Joseph Smith? Oh, yeah. This book is written earlier.
Gerrit So, I mean, I don't want to I guess I don't want to indict indict him for that because he does write it before Joseph Smith is murdered. Although I'm not entirely sure that that makes me feel more comfortable either.
Richard Yeah, he says that false prophets should be put to death and then Joseph Smith is put to death.
Gerrit And he's a professor in Illinois writing a book that says that false prophets should be put to death. Well, Jonathan Turner, also a complicated figure. Look, Jonathan Turner is a he is a a leader of trying to establish land grant colleges, getting more education to people. He is a fervent abolitionist because he sees that slavery is a sin in the eyes of God. And here's another great example. The same thing that makes Jonathan Turner see slavery as a sin in the eyes of God is the same thing that makes him see Mormonism as a sin in the eyes of God. Now, notice this is 1842. This is not a book like John Hyde's, which was written in 1857, and it can just spend the entire time saying, You don't believe me? Polygamy! And then you win the argument.
Gerrit In this case, this is a book that was written prior to at least widespread belief that the Latter-day Saints are practicing polygamy. They are in secret, at least Joseph and a few others are by 1842. And John C. Bennett will in 1842, in mid-1842, make all kinds of claims about the Mormons practicing polygamy, which are many of them false and aggrandized. So there will be that kind of scandal, but it's still not seen generally. Let me give you an idea of what Jonathan Turner, again, a native Illinoisan who is going to write this and that is also checked out by Abraham Lincoln during this time. You would think that he was writing about the Russian army invading Ukraine, given the way he's talking about the growth of Mormonism in his introduction alone.
Gerrit The Mormons boast of 100,000 adherents in this country and more than 10,000 in Great Britain, where their faith is making rapid progress. This may be an exaggeration, but at all events, it is time that the absurdities of their scheme were exposed. They are, in truth, the most dangerous and virulent enemies to our political and religious purity and our social and civil peace that now exist in the Union. Not so much, however, on the ground of their direct as their indirect influences. The ravages in the front of their march are far less to be dreaded than the moral pestilence that follows them. The bubbles of fanaticism, it is true, leap and sparkle around their prow, but the dull and sullen waves of atheism roll and spread wide in their wake behind. It has ever been true that they have made 100 infidels to every dozen converts. This fact has not been properly heeded. There is much reason to believe that many of their popular leaders are at heart infidels.
Gerrit Those who can believe that skeptical and ambitious men who could not be converted to Christianity have been really made to believe in Joe Smith may do so if they please. The multitudes who fall into their ranks and retire are in general reduced to absolute atheism. Some are recovered again, many are not, but sink still into deeper and stronger delusions. In their public addresses, nothing is more common than to hear them defend the Book of Mormon in promiscuous assemblies by attacking and ridiculing the Bible either directly or indirectly. Their object generally is to show that if the Book of Mormon is ridiculous in whole or in part, then the Bible is so too. By these and similar processes, they succeed in affecting the minds of the thoughtless multitude with the vague impression that the Book of Mormon is at least as truly of divine authority as the Bible. A few receive both as divine. A far greater number make up their minds to have nothing to do with either.
Gerrit So, one of the things that's really upsetting, Turner, is the Latter-day Saints are responding to people saying, hey, there's no possible way that the Book of Mormon could be true by Latter-day Saints saying, well, how do you know the Bible is true? I mean, if you're saying that angels can't appear to people, the Bible's kind of got a lot of angels appearing to people, or you're saying that Jesus couldn't have appeared to anyone, we might have to talk to Paul about that. And you can see the reason why that argument was being made back then in 1842. So he sees it as undermining the Bible because you're comparing the two. Here is an example of another thought that he has. Like all other fanaticisms, Mormonism is adapted in its own nature to awaken either the indignation and contempt or the sympathy and compassion of mankind. It is not the design of this book to excite the latter. I don't want your compassion.
Gerrit I want your contempt. But rather by invoking the former to exterminate, if possible, that silly credulity on which all similar delusions rest. The folly of Mormonism and the Mormons and the turpitude of their leaders are the principal theme of our pages. We leave others the appropriate task of bewailing the miseries and ruin of this strange and extravagant enthusiasm. Given the fact that an actual extermination order was written, it's probably indelicate to use the term extermination in relation to what the Latter-day Saints should be made to experience. I think prior to the Missouri violence, one might be able to say, I'm just using extermination metaphorically.
Gerrit Well, until they killed everybody, and now you don't get to use it metaphorically anymore. The point is, this is a book that Abraham Lincoln also had checked out. Of the library, was he affected by this by this fellow Republican fellow anti-slavery advocate from his home state, who said that Mormonism was this delusion that had to be exterminated? How do I know? Now, while and while I might say, well, look, he called for volunteers from the Mormons in Utah. That's great evidence that he must have been affected by the Book of Mormon. The reality of events that take place next demonstrate that that's certainly not the case. While those troops go off to fight, the company, Lot Smith, is the leader of this company that goes off and I say to go fight, they just go off and do guard post duty, essentially, in Wyoming.
Gerrit So it actually probably was the worst assignment of the entire war, actually. Worse than Gettysburg, worse than Shiloh, and Antietam has nothing on being near Rock Springs in the wintertime. I mean, I get, you know, at least they were there in the spring.
Richard That's true.
Gerrit So that makes it the second worst place. Outside of Pickett's Charge in the Civil War. So those troops march off, but while they're marched off, there are political realities that are taking place. Here are some of them. The, I don't know if you want to call it the rump Congress of the United States, because you have, you know, you have all of these seceded states that have taken all of their congresspeople and their senators with them. It is very, very Republican. It is dominant in the number of congresspeople and, well, I guess I should just say congressmen, because they didn't allow women to be congresspersons at the time, and senators, the Republicans are dominant. And in the spring of 1862, they decide along with all their preparations for war, along with all the things that they have to do for the crisis, as they are trying to figure out how to make inroads in this battle against the Confederacy, they also take up some very political issues, issues that they had been trying for years to pass, but had always been stopped because there were too many Democrats in the House and in the Senate.
Gerrit Well, now there's not very many. And so the Homestead Act, which they had been trying to pass ever since their party was formed, and that the Whig Party had been trying to pass ever since the early 1850s, and that people had talked about ever since the 1840s, is finally passed in both houses. Now remember, the sponsors of the bill, as we read in our first lecture, are adamant that one of the reasons why you pass the bill is it will help destroy Mormonism in Utah. Abraham Lincoln has just read, or at least has had to, he had the ability to have just read, he's just checked out two books that call for the extermination of Mormons. And that bill, whose sponsors say part of its effects will be to extinguish Mormonism, that's the title from their speech, not mine, Abraham Lincoln signs that bill.
Gerrit He doesn't veto it. He doesn't speak out against it. He doesn't say, you know, I like the idea of the Homestead Act, but I'm not okay with this provision that's trying to extinguish Mormonism. He signs it. And I think you could easily make a defense of Lincoln to say, well, in the midst of the Civil War, where he's desperately trying to get support for all of the difficult things going on, 1862 is really the worst year of the war for the Union. I mean, well, 61 was also bad for him. Frankly, 64 wasn't good either. I mean, really, there were a lot of problems for the Union in the Civil War, but you could easily defend Abraham Lincoln and say, you know, he had so much on his plate. You can't fault him for having not tried to pick a political fight with these radical anti-Mormon Republicans who are passing this bill.
Gerrit But think about whether or not you would accept that from one of your leaders today. And again, it doesn't matter to me what political party you are, mainly because you're no longer listening. So regardless, you're a Republican, you're a Democrat.
Richard We still have them after parts one and two.
Gerrit Yeah, I mean, no, I'm assuming that only my mom is listening, and she's been fairly ambivalent about her political party, as we talked about on the bonus episode. And so regardless of what political party you belong to, I want you to take that out of it. I want you to just assume whether or not you would accept if Congress passed a law requiring that marriages could no longer take place inside of Latter-day Saint temples, that marriages could not. No marriages can happen in a temple, because there are some countries that have passed such laws. Would you accept as an argument to defend the sitting president, whoever it is when that happens or if it ever happened, would you accept an argument from someone that, well, yeah, he didn't veto it and he signed that bill, but if he would have vetoed it, they might have overridden the veto anyway, and it also would have made him like a lot of infighting inside his party, so that's the reason why he didn't veto it.
Gerrit I'm guessing that most of us wouldn't accept that excuse from whoever the president was or his defenders. You wouldn't say, oh, yeah, yeah, you know, he wanted to veto it. He really did, but he just didn't. The reality is Abraham Lincoln didn't veto it. The law is passed and it becomes the law of the land, and it doesn't actually end up having the effect that the supporters hope that it will, because Utah is so terrible, people don't even want to go there for free land.
Richard Perhaps even the defense of Abraham Lincoln on this particular one is, well, I know this is what the writers of the bill and the major proponents of the bill, this is what they say, but for me, that's not what the purpose of this is. We want additional people in these territories and lands. So maybe it had nothing to do with Mormonism per se.
Gerrit Well, at least you could say that Lincoln is rejecting the sponsors of the bill's arguments.
Richard Yeah, that's what I'm saying, perhaps.
Gerrit Yes, but then do we have any record of him saying that?
Richard Well, we're far past having records or evidence.
Gerrit At this point, we're speculating about speculations that we want to speculate about hypotheticals that we haven't speculated about.
Richard Yeah, that's essentially where I'm coming at.
Gerrit Or also the book that we're commenting on. So there's that past, but then much more problematic is the Moral Anti-Bigamy Act. Now it's named after Justin Morrill, which is M-O-R-R-I-L-L, not Morrill as in immoral, although it sounds kind of the same. I'm sure Justin Morrill loved the fact that his name sounded like morality. The Morrill Anti-Bigamy Act is finally passed, which makes plural marriage, polygamy, illegal in the territories of the United States. And that law is going to come into effect July 1st of 1862. What does that mean? It means that while these Latter-day Saint troops are out serving with the Union Army in Wyoming, that quite a few of them actually are actually going to return to Utah as criminals.
Gerrit Because the Moral Antibigamy Act is actually an ex post facto law, even though the Constitution prohibits ex post facto laws. What do you know? This one's not going to prohibit it. Making it a crime, even if you had entered into a polygamous marriage at some point in the future, I mean, at some point in the past, if you entered in a polygamous marriage in 1861 and this law was passed in 1862, it didn't matter. You were still a criminal. A criminal for practicing polygamy at all.
Richard So that one's tougher.
Gerrit Yeah, it's a little bit tougher to justify. I don't know whether or not this law, which specifically names Mormons and their religious practices in Utah, I just don't know whether or not that's anti-Mormon or not. Seems like it might not be. I mean, you can see the problem, right? I mean, I want you to think of the irony. These men left Salt Lake to go defend their country and came back to find out that while they were gone, they became criminals because they left more than one wife at home when they left. It's pretty hard to make an argument that that's not an anti-Mormon law. And again, the sponsors of it, the point of it, is all based upon ending what is seen as this horrid practice by the Republican Party. Again, does Abraham Lincoln veto it? Does he send it back to Congress saying, you know what, change the provisions so that it's not an ex post facto law?
Gerrit Does he make statements about it publicly saying, I know this law is passed, but I hope that it's not enforced? He doesn't know any of those things, but he does have his name signed on the bottom of that law, making it the first specifically anti-Mormon law passed in American history. You can see part of the problem then of basing my testimony on the basis of Abraham Lincoln essentially being a dry Mormon. He read the Book of Mormon and was just one step away from hopping into the baptismal font in order to become one in practice as well as in belief. But he's sending an army and continues to send that army. That army arrives in the spring in 1862 to occupy Utah against the consent of its citizens. He signs a law, the Homestead Act, opening up Utah to settlement from trying to attract Gentile settlers, at least according to the law's sponsors.
Gerrit And to cap it all off, signs a law criminalizing polygamy. This is not something that happened in a vacuum. Whigs and Republicans had been trying to make polygamy illegal in the territories for more than a decade. And now Abraham Lincoln is the one who signs that bill into law.
Richard So you have at the end of 1861 him checking out a copy of the Book of Mormon and several other books that you've mentioned here. Then they bring troops to Wyoming. They bring, because they don't have enough troops because they're all fighting in the war.
Gerrit Yes, so Latter-day Saints send a company of troops to serve in what is now Wyoming.
Richard Then the federal government brings about 800 or so troops into Utah.
Gerrit To occupy Utah against the consent. In fact, the Latter-day Saints protest. They send numerous telegrams to the War Office. And there actually is among the Abraham Lincoln papers, although not mentioned in this book. Abraham Lincoln does send a note to the War Department that the Latter-day Saint representative in Utah in 1863 has protested that the Army is continuing to occupy Utah. And so Lincoln essentially sends it. So he's well aware. Lincoln is well aware that the Latter-day Saints are not happy that Utah is being occupied because he responds to the request to have the troops removed. And his response is to defer it to the War Department to let them decide.
Richard So checks out those books, sends troops, passes two specifically identified as anti-Mormon laws. Then later in that same year, drafts the Emancipation Proclamation. And then in about September, issues.
Gerrit Actually issues it, yeah. So he has the first draft that he's going to draft in the summer. And the author wants to make the point that...
Richard It's 15 days before he drafts it.
Gerrit He obviously was studying it and that's what caused him to draft it. And again, one of the reasons why an actual historian would just scoff at this idea is it's almost a mockery of the rest of Lincoln's life and writings.
Richard It seems like the exact opposite thing is happening here.
Gerrit As a historian, if you were to look at what Lincoln did to the Latter-day Saints, which the Latter-day Saints... Now again, it's one thing for me to sit back and say, well, the Homestead Act, that wasn't really that bad for them. Okay, that's pretty easy to say from my giant ivory tower that I'm looking down upon them from 150 years later. The reality is they saw it as an attempt to hurt them because the people who sponsored the bill said, hey, this is going to hurt them. So surprisingly, Latter-day Saints said, I think they might be trying to hurt us with this. It's possible that the people who sponsored it saying, let's hurt the Mormons. In fact, not hurt, let's use the word that they use, extinguish the Mormons, which I've never seen as a positive. I don't know if you have. Or crush them under the advancing tread of Christian civilizations.
Richard Extinguish sounds better.
Gerrit It does actually. You know, under the advancing tread, I mean, they don't have tanks yet, but it does sound like a Tiananmen Square thing going on. Yeah. Anyway, the the second bill, of course, this attempt to pass this anti-polygamy bill is is something that's been a decade in the making. And it's Abraham Lincoln that signs it in. And so if you were a historian examining this without faith in the Church of Jesus Christ, Latter-day Saints, you would look at the various things Abraham Lincoln had checked out of the Library of Congress. And you would say to yourself, well, what's clear is that in late 1861 and early 1862, Abraham Lincoln has a problem. He appointed a new governor to Utah territory who apparently attempted to assault a woman and was beaten with a fire shovel and then ran off of his post.
Gerrit So there's a problem there. I need to appoint a new governor. There are two bills working their way through Congress that are specifically targeting Utah territory. And should I then, you know, what do I need to think about the Latter-day Saints? I've already ordered an army to occupy Utah. Is, you know, what should I do? The conclusion that you would come to as a historian is, given the antagonistic things that were done, Lincoln concluded that the Latter-day Saints were fanatics and a problem. And therefore you needed an army there to watch them. You needed to make sure they were okay. And that Lincoln himself was fine with a law that outlawed polygamy. I mean, one thing that Lincoln defenders rarely know is that Abraham Lincoln is going to, he's going to suspend the writ of habeas corpus for the entire country.
Gerrit What does that mean? The writ of habeas corpus is what allows you to be charged with a crime when you are arrested. It is the production of the body, meaning you have to be arraigned for your crime. You can't just dwell forever in prison. You have a right to a speedy trial. By suspending the writ of habeas corpus, he essentially allowed people to be arrested without ever being charged. So you'd sit in jail forever because without ever being arraigned, then you wouldn't ever have to have that trial. I would love to tell you that there were no abuses of the suspension of the writ of habeas corpus, but because I said government and I said far-reaching powers, I think you're well aware that there's going to be some, and it is employed against people in sometimes tragic ways. And I'm not saying Abraham Lincoln's running around throwing people in jail.
Gerrit He's in the midst of this cataclysmic war, and he feels like, given how many traders or potential traders there are, especially in the border states. I mean, DC itself is in the center of a non-secessionist state, so-called Maryland, but the only reason Maryland doesn't secede is Union troops surround the Maryland state house when they're about to vote, and they're like, oh, I guess we better not vote on it. And so they stay in the Union, but they're not happily in the Union. So I'm not criticizing Lincoln for the fact that he suspended it. It's obviously the most expansive federal power grab that's ever taken place in that regard. For years, you could be arrested by the federal government and never be charged, and you just had to stay in prison. And there were people that were arrested that are tragedies. Some of the people that are arrested, in fact, a considerable number of people that are arrested, are pacifist preachers who are preaching against people enlisting in the war effort because it's wrong in the eyes of God to ever commit violence against anyone.
Gerrit Well, some of those preachers were judged to be hurting the war effort. Now, they earnestly believe that they've been pacifists. It's not like they were just using that as a cover, but they languished in jail, some of them for years during the war without ever being charged under the basis of that law. So again, I don't mean that to denigrate Lincoln's memory, but what I mean it to say is Lincoln took many actions in the Civil War that he knew were a great expansion, was a great expansion of federal power, but he also thought they were necessary for his primary goal, and that was ending the war, saving the Union and freeing the slaves. And those goals kind of sometimes caused him to, you know, allow things that you might not other allow to go on, like the suspension of the writ of habeas corpus.
Gerrit And a historian looking at the matter of things in Utah objectively would say, at best, Lincoln sees the Latter-day Saints as a potential threat to the United States. And so he's being very prudent and cautious by having the territory occupied. He certainly doesn't want any violence there. I'm not saying that. But he receives multiple requests for the troops to be removed, and he doesn't remove them.
Richard Honestly, having the troops there when they're about to pass those two bills probably actually makes quite a bit of sense.
Gerrit It does make a lot of sense. And then on top of that, when the troops' enlistments run out in Wyoming, they're in Laramie, Brigham Young will actually receive a notice from the troops that, hey, they want us to re-enlist. So in August 25th of 1862, Brigham Young sends a telegraph to Adjutant General Thomas in Washington City. Governor Harding has received a telegram from Brigadier General Craig at Laramie for the re-enlistment of Captain Watt Smith's company. This is Brigham Young sending this to the War Department. So their term ends, because they were only serving for three months, and there was a request to re-up them. And Brigham Young is going to ask the question that's going to demonstrate where the federal government really is at.
Gerrit And that is, well, if the whole reason why you called these troops out was to guard the stage and mail route, because there weren't any troops in the area to guard it, and now there's a thousand California volunteers in Salt Lake, why exactly, again, would you need these 170 men to re-enlist instead of the thousand men that are already there, which you claim is to guard the mail route? But everyone knows that they're not actually there to guard the mail route. He goes on to say, Please inform me whether the government wishes the militia of the territory of Utah to go beyond her borders while troops are here from other states who have been sent to protect the mail and telegraph property. So the point Brigham Young is trying to make, you want us to send troops to go defend other places while you're occupying Utah territory against our will.
Gerrit And look, Patrick Conner, the head of the California Volunteers that's occupying Utah, someday we'll have like six podcasts in a row on him, and I'll just be so angry that I'll probably get thrown off the air and we'll have to put explicit on it, you know, and all kinds of stuff like that. Because Patrick Conner, while he's occupying Utah, is an inveterate antagonist of the Latter-day Saints. He is constantly... He will place a cannon directed at Brigham Young's house, threatening to shoot it if Brigham Young ever gets out of line, which is not what I've thought a way to win friends and influence people in the world. But most heinous, Patrick Connor is... While he tries to get a green light to attack the Latter-day Saints multiple times, he does get a green light to attack the American Indians in the area. And he is going to perpetrate in January of 1863 the worst Indian massacre in American history.
Gerrit He is going to slaughter hundreds of primarily women and children at the Bear River Massacre. It is a horrific event and one in which the soldiers involved commit all kinds of atrocities. And those troops are there because the federal government, including Abraham Lincoln, have refused the Latter-day Saint requests to move them out of their area. They are there against the will of the Latter-day Saints. They are there even after Latter-day Saints have proven their loyalty by not seceding, by sending troops. The reality is, maybe Lincoln doesn't have a heavy hand on that. But as commander-in-chief, the buck does stop somewhere, right? Now, there are the anecdotal stories, especially that will grow up later, that Lincoln, you know, essentially told Brigham Young, if you mind your business, I'll mind mine.
Gerrit But it's pretty hard to say that he was minding his own business when he was passing a law that outlawed a portion of Latter-day Saint belief. I realize that most of the people listening are not fans of plural marriage. I'm not a fan of plural marriage. But that has nothing to do with the fact that the federal government passed a law specifically targeting Latter-day Saints. Because of one of their religious practices. It's pretty hard to argue that that is just letting you alone. I'll just plow around your fallen tree stump, except I'll outlaw part of your religion. Because it actually doesn't matter whether or not Americans are okay with the Latter-day Saint practice of plural marriage. What mattered is whether or not Latter-day Saints believed it was part of their religion. We can have all kinds of arguments about why they shouldn't have or if they should have or how happy we are that the manifesto was issued. Those are all immaterial to the point.
Gerrit The point is Latter-day Saints believed God had commanded them to practice plural marriage. And whether the federal government agrees that plural marriage is fine or not has no bearing on whether or not Latter-day Saints believe that God commanded them to do it. They did. They believe that Doctrine and Covenants Section 132 was from God. They believe that. You can say they shouldn't have believed it. You can say I wish they hadn't believed it. You can say all kinds of things. That doesn't change the fact that it is obvious from the historical record that Brigham Young and Orson Hyde and all the leaders, they earnestly believed that God had commanded them to practice it, as did the women who defended plural marriage. They also believed that God had commanded them to practice it. So we have to kind of get away from the justification of what the federal government does, because, you know, I've got a problem with polygamy too, to the realities of the fact that that's their religion.
Gerrit Are we okay with the federal government dictating to people what they can and can't practice in their religion? And if the only reason we say yes is because we're thinking of things we don't like about other people's religion, well, I think that's actually the problem and the reason why we have a First Amendment, because it doesn't matter whether or not I think someone wearing a headscarf is or isn't honoring God or whether I personally think that someone wearing a headscarf is, you know, if someone thinks that that, you know, is a way of oppressing the woman who wears it. There are many millions of Muslim women who say that they wear a headscarf in order to honor God. You start to get into a pretty complicated area when you try to argue with those people. I know you think you're doing it to honor God, but you know what?
Gerrit I know better than you do, so let me make that illegal so you no longer have the choice anymore. The reality is this is going to be kind of a fraught relationship. Now look, Abraham Lincoln does not send thousands of marshals to Utah territory to arrest every person practicing polygamy. He neither has the time nor the manpower to do that in the midst of the Civil War. But it's just an erroneous argument to claim that he's actuated by some kind of testimony that he gained through the Book of Mormon. If he did, he had a poor way of showing it by passing the first anti-Mormon law in American history. Again, this is not to say that Abraham Lincoln is not an incredible man and president. I revere Abraham Lincoln as a president, knowing all of those things I just said. Because people are complicated people.
Gerrit And even though Jonathan Turner wrote a book talking about how he wished Mormons were extinguished, he also was one of the leaders in the fight for education reform and for the end of slavery. I can respect Jonathan Turner's desperation to help those that were enslaved. At the same time, I can be irritated and annoyed that he allowed his religious fervor to attack the religion that I'm a part of today. I can look at Abraham Lincoln and say, the nation could not have survived without him. And the great tragedy of our day is that he was assassinated and allowed Andrew Johnson to become president, which is the greatest tragedy in American history, probably. And still say that he rationally, as a member of the Republican Party, was worried about what Mormons were and are and knew that most Americans had a problem with them.
Gerrit Both of those things can be true. We don't have to compartmentalize things to the point where we try to say every good person from history must have, while they were alive, basically been a dry Mormon. We all know that eventually, those early presidents, most of them, a couple of conspicuous, absent ones, Van Buren, Buchanan, they are going to appear to Wilfred Woodruff and ask for their temple work to be done. Well, that is a statement that there's this progression beyond. We don't have to prove that Abraham Lincoln was a believer in the Book of Mormon before he left this life, because we know that he was a believer later. Latter-day Saints belief allows people to come to the truth either in this life or the next.
Gerrit And sometimes we're so desperate that our heroes of our past, we want to kind of push them into that in this life rather than in the next. I understand why people want to believe it. Like I said, I want to believe it. But as a historian, I have to look at those things and I have to say, not only is there not good evidence for it, there's actually quite a bit of evidence the other way, demonstrating that in fact, Latter-day Saints were fairly justified in believing that at best Abraham Lincoln was not going to help them. And at worse, he didn't have their best interests at heart. And that's just something that Latter-day Saints have to wrestle with. Don't worry, we can still celebrate Presidents Day. Like I said, I still read every biography on Abraham Lincoln I can get ahold of. But that doesn't mean I have to pretend that he was something that he wasn't or that he was affected by the Book of Mormon in this life, especially because I'm certain that either now or at some point in the future, he will forever be impacted by the Book of Mormon, as will everyone, as every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ and that this really is God's true Church.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them, and for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time!

Quote board

Make a share card from any line

I feel like that's you saying that I said nothing at all.

GerritBanter

I love driving three hours round trip to make no money and say four words.

RichardBanter

I was playing Mario 3.

RichardBanter

But I would only love to believe it if it was actually true, rather than something that was kind of a spiritual twinkie, something that sure sounded great, but didn't actually fill the need of truth.

GerritInsight

The spirit can only testify of truth.

GerritInsight

It's a very important thing whenever you're talking about a persecuted minority group, that you allow that minority group to explain what their feelings are to the majority, not the other way around.

GerritInsight

Because Utah is so terrible, people don't even want to go there for free land.

GerritBanter

At this point, we're speculating about speculations that we want to speculate about hypotheticals that we haven't speculated about.

GerritBanter

Both of those things can be true.

GerritInsight

he will forever be impacted by the Book of Mormon, as will everyone, as every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ and that this really is God's true Church.

GerritInsight

More from this episode

Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.

Claim check

What critics say, and what the episode found
Reading the Book of Mormon changed Abraham Lincoln's view of the Saints and led him to the Emancipation Proclamation.
Lincoln told Brigham Young he'd leave the Mormons alone, like plowing around a stump.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.

Take it to class

Ready to copy into a lesson or a text

A testimony built on things that aren't true is a sandy foundation; the Spirit can only testify of truth, so check stirring stories before you share them.

When a group was persecuted, let their own journals and records tell us how they felt, rather than deciding for them.

Lincoln saved the nation and freed the slaves, and he also signed the first anti-Mormon law and kept troops in Utah; both things can be true.

We don't need to make our heroes secret Latter-day Saints in this life; people can come to the truth in the next.

Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.

Banter bin

The running jokes, for people who skip ahead
Japanese rice tariffsRichard, PhD in business, wants efficiency and money, so: Japanese rice tariffs (1:22, 1:34).
A podcast that loses moneyThree hours round trip to make no money and say four words, and not even bankruptcy can save them (1:35, 1:48).
Mario 3Gerrit read Civil War diaries at 14; Richard was only playing Mario 3, which is why he got a better job (3:11).
Where's my rim shot?Gerrit asks Richard to yell yes from the other seat (9:21).
The audience: Gerrit's momOnly his politically ambivalent mom is still listening after parts one and two (51:43).
Episodes promised, never madeSix podcasts in a row on Patrick Connor, which would need an explicit label (1:09:27).
Worst assignment of the warGuard duty near Rock Springs beats Gettysburg and Shiloh for misery (47:44).
Gerrit vs. Andrew JohnsonLincoln's assassination, giving us Andrew Johnson, is "the greatest tragedy in American history, probably" (1:15:51).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

Your question could be next week’s episode
Questions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
General ConferenceGeneral Conference talks that cite a scripture read in this episode.

In General Conference

Talks from the latest General Conference that cite a scripture this episode reads or names on air
October 2026 General Conference · cites D&C 132Come to the Lord in His Holy HouseElder Gerrit W. GongElder Gong lays out three doctrinal foundations for temple worship: eternal families, moral agency, and the Holy Spirit of Promise, which makes honored covenants binding.October 2026 General Conference · cites James 1:5The Ninety and TenElder Michael A. DunnElder Dunn recalls a 100-mile ultramarathon in which, at mile 90, he wanted to quit until his running partner Ted promised to get him to the finish.October 2026 General Conference · cites D&C 132Sealed by the Holy Spirit of PromiseElder David A. BednarElder Bednar, using the image of a damaged passport rejected at a border, teaches that ordinances and covenants are our credentials for returning to God, and that their integrity must be maintained through ongoing faithfulness, ratified over time by the Holy Spirit of Promise.

Summaries, themes and lessons for every talk are on What Did They Say?

Go deeperWhere to read more.

Go deeper

Deep dives the episode points toward
Read John Hyde's 1857 exposé or J. B. Turner's 1842 book to see what Lincoln had checked out alongside the Book of Mormon (30:40).
Lot Smith's company: the only unified Utah unit in Union service during the Civil War (36:19).
The Morrill Anti-Bigamy Act and its ex post facto reach on Utah families (53:55).
Patrick Connor's occupation of Utah and the Bear River Massacre of January 1863 (1:09:27).
SOT Litner · S2E12.