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S2E35 · Signs of the Times Part 1
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Standard of Truth · Season 2 · Episode 35 · 1:03:20

Signs of the Times Part 1

A popular Second Coming book quotes Jedediah Grant from a 1915 magazine, which is impressive, since Grant died in 1856.

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The question ·
I came across a quote from Joseph Smith that I wanted to know for sure if it was true or if it was one of those quotes that have passed through five different people.
Jackson (listener)

Richard launches a "sponsored" mailbag named after a postmaster general, which leads to Amos Kendall, a long email from Chris with tongue-in-cheek sports picks, and talk of the upcoming tour. The main question comes from Jackson, who asks whether a Joseph Smith quote about a vision of war so terrible he asked the Lord to close it is real. Gerrit tracks it to Jedediah Grant's 1854 sermon, reads it in full and shows it was about judgment coming on the United States for how it treated the Saints, not a timeline for the last days. He sets it beside Brigham Young's merciful tone and Wilford Woodruff's Civil War entries, explains proof texting, and warns about books that insist the Second Coming is just days away.

Who comes upJoseph SmithJedediah M. GrantBrigham YoungWilford WoodruffAmos KendallAndrew JacksonSamuel OsgoodEdward PartridgeAmmonWilliam Miller
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Richard names the mailbag after a postmaster general, and Gerrit explains who Amos Kendall was.

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Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast, hosted by historian, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, where we explore the early days of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and gain rare historical insights into how a young farm boy was able to establish a new church and grow it by way of visions, manifestations and miracles.
Richard Miracles.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. In this week's podcast, we're gonna start something a little bit new. As we have grown in popularity to four, possibly seven listeners, we've decided to go all in and have a sponsored segment. So we're going to start off with postmaster general Amos Kendall's mailbag.
Gerrit You understand how sponsorships work, correct?
Richard Well, we're gonna do things a little bit differently. We're going to name it and then go after the family and try and see if they want to give us some money for it.
Gerrit And we figured if we're going to have a mailbag, we should name it after not just a postmaster general, but one of the worst. But literally, yeah, one of the ones who's the most notorious, which suggests what we think of the mailbag, is that?
Richard The podcast in general.
Gerrit Well, who was Amos Kendall? Well, Amos Kendall was one of Andrew Jackson's appointees as a postmaster. Now, he did some things that you might just call political chicanery, such as deliberately instructing his postmasters to deliver papers that were unfavorable to Jackson slower than papers that were favorable to Jackson.
Richard So now, a postmaster at that time, you had mentioned to me in our production meeting where we were listening to Ario Speedwagon.
Gerrit Which you can tell we were listening to Ario Speedwagon. And I can't fight this feeling anymore.
Richard That's true.
Gerrit Can you?
Richard I can't. So you had mentioned that this is actually a pretty powerful position postmaster.
Gerrit Yeah, in fact, today, if you were to list off cabinet offices that you know the name of the person who's in it, my guess is you would get past vice president and you would get the secretary of state is still generally pretty well known. You might know the secretary of the treasury if you're someone who's desperately hoping for or against a recession, I guess, and the secretary of defense. And I think outside of that, unless the person directly affects your own, like someone out there, I'm sure who's not listening, but if you were listening, works in the oil fields and they know who the secretary of the interior is, or because of that, but generally, your average American, they don't really know who's the secretary of housing and urban development right now. I mean, people might know it. I mean, I do know. I'm not gonna pretend that out, but the postmaster general.
Richard Currently, Louis DeJoy is the- Nope, off the top of my head. 75th postmaster general.
Gerrit Why do I see you reading something?
Richard You do not.
Gerrit I feel like our relationship's built on lies. Between this and rumsy, dumsy, rumsy, dumsy, Colonel Johnson shot Tecumseh, it's just hard to take everything that you say.
Richard All the better that this sponsored segment is the postmaster general, Amos Kendall Mailbag.
Gerrit At any rate, Amos Kendall was the postmaster general in the 19th century, was actually one of the most powerful federal offices that existed. And the reason why was the federal government was incredibly small compared to ours in the 19th century, and there were very few federal jobs. The one cabinet position that had enormous power because it had national power and national patronage power to appoint people as postmasters everywhere was the postmaster general. So while you might think of it as a kind of an also ran cabinet position today, the postmaster general in the 19th century was incredibly powerful. Also remember, there is no other form of media. There is no telegraph yet. In fact, Amos Kendall will be one of the investors with Samuel Morse in the creation of the telegraph, but you didn't.
Richard Oh, you know, I did know that actually. I was gonna, if you didn't get to it, I was gonna say it.
Gerrit I feel like anything I say at this point, Richard's gonna say, he already knew.
Richard No, but you say it first, and then I'll tell you if I knew it or not.
Gerrit You're right. So, Amos Kendall was from which party?
Richard The Democrat Party.
Gerrit See, he knew that.
Richard There you go.
Gerrit Yeah, because he knew who Andrew Jackson was. Anyway, Kendall is notorious to historians because not only does he, like I say, deliberately instruct his postmasters to deliver his political rival paper slower, far more heinous, he deliberately makes his own decision, well, with Jackson's help, to not deliver abolitionist mail to places in the South. And so he essentially is implementing his own gag order of the mails, not because a law was passed, just to like prevent those things from being delivered.
Richard Well, I think we just renamed it this mailbag.
Gerrit Yeah, exactly. Well, so also he's notorious to Latter-day Saints because, well, he should be notorious to Latter-day Saints. I guess notorious would suggest everyone knows who he is.
Richard Right, and no one does.
Gerrit No one knows who he is. Well, he is someone who in the latter stages, the Latter-day Saints being in Nauvoo, he is part of a conspiracy of entrepreneurs and former federal officials to try to defraud the Latter-day Saints of their property from wherever they're going to settle. Kendall and his business associate, Alfred Grandison Benson are trying to convince Brigham Young through the offices of Samuel Brannon, who is the leader of the church out in the East, that they have power still in Polk's cabinet, and that they know that the federal government is going to come try to destroy them or stop them. And the only way that they would protect them and save the Mormons is if the Mormons agreed to sign over fully half of every single square mile of territory that they settled in, whether they went to Oregon or Mexico or wherever they went.
Gerrit So they sent this agreement to Brigham Young for him to agree that wherever they go, literally every even numbered lot would belong to them. And what did they get in return for this massive windfall? Oh, well, we'll make sure the federal government doesn't attack and kill you. How do I know the federal government was planning to attack and kill us? Well, I told you that they were. So they're the ones supplying the information and they're also supplying the resolution of the matter. When Brigham Young gets this from Samuel Brannon, Samuel Brannon is frantic. You've got to sign this. The army is going to come kill us. Brigham Young reads it and he's certainly disturbed, but he says, he calls it the Covenant with Death and says that it's a plan by political demagogues to rob the Latter-day Saints of millions of dollars worth of property. And he's quite astute at that. Now, why do we name the mailbag?
Richard So we'd like to, so we got started a new segment, Postmaster General Samuel Osgood's mailbag. That's right. So we'll start reading, we'll read an email here. The subject line starts off pretty funny. Fan feedback, it's positive, I promise.
Gerrit I think this goes back to us saying that we won't read any negative emails over the air, which severely limits the number of emails we can read.
Richard Oh, they're mostly negative.
Gerrit Yeah, so we can only find, we have to go searching, you know, like a needle in a haystack to try to find.
Richard So it helps in the subject line, this is only positive, we only say nice things.
Gerrit I think he assumed our filter would have already cut it out, but.
Richard That's right. Thank you so much for doing this podcast. I love the humor and authentic dynamic that is evident in your friendship. And I especially love the content of your podcast. I'm a big podcast listener. Toward the end of the last summer, I made a decision to stop listening to so many sports and politics podcasts and to find more faith building podcasts. I have, I've been listening, or I've been listening to Follow Him and Why Religion, and Can't Remember How I Found Yours, but I'm glad that I have. It's actually unfortunate that you say that, because we're actually looking at a format change. We're actually looking to move away from church history and focus more on sports gambling.
Gerrit Yep, not just sports. Anyone can do sports talk. We're doing sports betting.
Richard Now, obviously, that's gonna be behind the paywall.
Gerrit Literally.
Richard Yeah, we'll be behind the paywall. But you know what? We're gonna give you a taste. We're gonna give you one free. So the Caesars Sportsbook has the Sox tonight, the Sox at plus 15 on the money line against the AKs.
Gerrit By the way, they are terrible this year.
Richard They are terrible this year. But you know what? Do whatever you can. Second mortgage, put it all in the Sox. That's free money. So you turn that $100 into $115.
Gerrit But if it ends up going the other way, you heard it from someone else.
Richard That's right, for entertainment purposes only. Let me go on with the email. Now I may or may not have been a kiss up in my college days. I was nowhere near the quality of student that you two evidently are. That's actually funny because I'm not a...
Gerrit Well, we explained what terrible students we were, so.
Richard That's true, but I did have many professors, like the one you talked about on the most recent episode. Side note, mine was an AP US history teacher from Kearns High School who smacked the desk of a student who fell asleep in class and kicked them out. She also looked like Yzma from Disney's Emperor's New Groove, but I digress. So notwithstanding my reputation as a kiss up allowed me to honestly and truthfully say that your podcast is my favorite podcast. Add Chris to the list with Rachel's mom as a loyal listener. I get that notification of a new episode and quickly interrupt whatever podcast I am listening to at the moment and begin the Standard of Truth podcast instead. All right, so one more free pick. Take Toledo over eight wins this season. I know there's-
Gerrit You can call it football?
Richard Yeah, absolutely. I know there's some-
Gerrit Or a lacrosse.
Richard College football. I'm not as up on the cross.
Gerrit Is there any way I could parlay that Boston pick?
Richard Probably, except when we're recording this podcast, we'll come out a month after that game just happened. But take Toledo. I know there's some concern over a potential push at eight, not eight and a half or seven and a half, but after the Rockets lose to San Diego State and Ohio State, they're going to feast on the soft underbelly of the Mac.
Gerrit That makes sense.
Richard And I'll tell you what, I'll tell you what. I've got them at nine and a half.
Gerrit I feel like you're too good at this.
Richard No, they're my pick for the Mid-American Conference. I have them playing in the Lending Tree Bowl in Mobile, Alabama in 2022.
Gerrit Who doesn't want to play in the Lending Tree Bowl?
Richard That's what I've got.
Gerrit I'm sure BYU will end up there.
Richard Back to the email. I know they'll accept the bowl bid at the end of September. That is always one of my favorites.
Gerrit Yeah, the BYU accepts their bowl bid before the season starts. Three games in, like, thank you for the...
Richard No, we are BYU football fans.
Gerrit That's huge, but that's why we're so frustrated.
Richard Okay, and I never bet on BYU football, obviously, or give any picks because...
Gerrit Because you saw what a poor sports betting entertainment purposes only would be.
Richard Back to the email. You both have graded many papers in your careers. Actually, so this is actually something that is very different between a business class and a history class. I don't grade papers. I never grade papers. I have exams and I have presentations and I have basic assignments that don't require me to do very much work after the fact. History papers.
Gerrit It's all work.
Richard Yeah, I mean, how many papers?
Gerrit Well, we believe in helping the students learn.
Richard Oh, I have no interest. I just moved from Lehigh, moved from Lehigh to Orlando, Florida. I drove out here in our SUV. My wife and kids flew out here and after I had already arrived, but my mother who joined the church in Brazil when she was 17, by the way, Chris, as I've mentioned in previous podcasts, my mom is a convert to the church. She joined the church in Arizona when she was 19. So there you go. So we have someone.
Gerrit Actually have that in common with Rachel's mom.
Richard Is that right? How about that?
Gerrit Yes, convert to the church in Brazil.
Richard I come from converts. It is always funny, a pioneer day. The majority of my family on that side is converts. And so we don't... So part of the reason I enjoy this podcast so much is, you know, my wife's family, they all, they joined the church before Joseph.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard That's the way they tell it.
Gerrit They were members of the church in 1800. Joseph was born in 1805.
Richard Well, that's how faithful.
Gerrit We knew. We had also stopped drinking and smoking.
Richard Yeah, most of my family joined the church in the 70s. So 1970s. Sorry, I digress. Accompanied his mother, accompanied me to me for the drive and we had a blast. We had never been to any church sites outside of Utah and we marathoned a few different episodes en route to Missouri. I'll cherish the memories I have of visiting these sites with my mother for the rest of my life. But thank you for producing a podcast that made these visits to the church sites ever more impactful. And then he goes on to give us a couple of ideas for future episodes. I'll read a couple of these as I like them. I think they're really good. He wants one on just Edward Partridge. We did another episode.
Gerrit Yeah, this podcast will come out sometime around when we got another one that discusses Partridge. I don't know when. I don't get to make any of these decisions.
Richard That's right.
Gerrit I'm being held here against my will.
Richard So we want to release the episodes to kind of capture the tidal wave. And so the Edward.
Gerrit The Edward Partridge tidal wave, it's just getting to its apex.
Richard It really is. So it'll come out sometime mid September. Anyway, we love Edward Partridge. And so we do have another one that's coming out.
Gerrit Well, and speaking of those church sites, I mean, we are excited about the number of people that are excited about our tour that we're putting together.
Richard Yeah, it's fantastic. We actually did, we had to actually go get an actual LLC and set everything up. And we're gonna have to.
Gerrit And we could get the ability to take deposits and things like that.
Richard Yeah, and so we're actually gonna be setting it up or there's gonna be a separate page. There's gonna be a link on the homepage for the Standard of Truth Tours and there'll be a separate place and we hope that some of you will sign up. That'll be really in the next, maybe even before this. We wanna get in the next couple of weeks. We wanna buy.
Gerrit We're almost there.
Richard Yeah, by the end of August, we're gonna be able to have that up and going.
Gerrit That would be awesome to go to those sites. So I love those sites. They have power. I just like talking about with his mom. I mean, something will treasure. The experience you have at the sites is something you treasure forever, that's for sure.
Richard We also have one of the other ideas that Chris has here is companion episodes for each church historic site, which would also be pretty cool. Episodes about women of the restoration, unknown stories, visions, challenges they had, et cetera. You came and spoke in our ward and you talked about...
Gerrit Emeline Anderson.
Richard Emeline Anderson. There's lots of unsung or unknown heroes of the restoration.
Gerrit If you just went through it, you could find the stories of faith and faithfulness among the women and men of the church. And certainly you could do 100 podcasts on that. So maybe that'll be season seven, just be that.
Richard Yep, certainly before polygamy. Teachings of Joseph and others about the Lamanites, the Book of Mormon, the gathering of Israel. Selfishly, excuse me, this is one, is interesting to me because I served in the Amazon and had a rather Ammon-like experience teaching a secluded tribe of natives, curious to understand more about the early saints, experiences with the Native Americans.
Gerrit First of all, that's awesome.
Richard That's incredible, yeah.
Gerrit I wanna have him on the podcast and let's talk to him about that.
Richard Yeah, this is, I had a similar experience. I spent nine and a half months in a retirement community in Sun City, California, where we would go to, we'd have dinner with the members at 3.30 at Coco's because they all had to be in bed by about 5.30 or 6. Very similar missions, it sounds like, that we had. And then Japanese rice tariffs, stop teasing us, Richard.
Gerrit That one's all you.
Richard Absolutely. All right, one last pick in terms of, from a gambling perspective.
Gerrit If we were to become a sports betting, entertainment purposes only.
Richard Entertainment purposes only. All right, Chris, since you're from Brazil, I assume there is some rooting interest in Brazil for the upcoming World Cup. They are favorites to win the World Cup at plus 450. But a bookie friend of mine, Sal, he always tells me to look for the value and you're gonna get that value in Iran.
Gerrit For the World Cup.
Richard For the World Cup, to pick to win.
Gerrit You heard it here first.
Richard That's right. How do you turn $100 into 75,000 clams? You put it all on Iran. So they're in the same grouping with the United States.
Gerrit Is there a better chance that they'll let nuclear inspectors back in or that they'll win the World Cup?
Richard The World Cup.
Gerrit Can you parlay that?
Richard Yeah, parlay. Anyway, sorry, back to the email. Since dedicating my time and to more faith-related podcasts, I've felt my testimony grow and my faith strengthen. It has added me or has aided me in my church calling. And as a father and a husband in the home, I no longer shy away from church history. I run toward it. Thank you for all you do. I know it's a lot of work. It is for Gerrit, actually. It is quite a bit of work for him. As obvious, I don't do anything. You may not see the fruits of what you're doing, but you are doing so much good. Let me get you to listen to whatever you have planned next. Here's to 38 seasons to come.
Gerrit It's very nice. We gotta get to 38 seasons or we'll never get to polygamy.
Richard It'd be funny if we just stopped right at 37.
Gerrit I think we'll get to 37 and a half, and that'll be the end. What a beautiful email.
Richard Chris, thank you so much.
Gerrit Thank you so much. And honestly, I'd love to talk to Chris about his Ammon experience in Brazil. That sounds incredible.
Richard I assume it included the chopping off of arms. Anytime anyone mentions it.
Gerrit Yeah, you're right. You said it was an Ammon experience. How many arms were part of this?
Richard Yeah, yeah. Because you didn't say Aaron. You didn't say his brother, who had a similar experience as a great spirit.
Gerrit And did you carry them up in baskets?
Richard What did you? His companion brought them up in baskets.
Gerrit Okay, well, that makes sense. So, interestingly though, you were asking about what Joseph had said about that. That kind of dovetails a little bit into one of the other questions that we received.
Richard In the Postmaster General, Samuel Osgood's mailbag.
Gerrit Which we've already changed. What's it gonna be next time?
Richard Well, we're gonna see if the Osgood family will pay, and if they don't.
Gerrit I see, so we'll just keep throwing names out there until someone says, oh, I needed to stay that way.
Richard He was the first Postmaster General appointed by George Washington. So previously it was the Congress that did it.
Gerrit I see that. Well, so we got an email from a listener who had emailed us once before, and this is how they opened their email. They titled it, I finally have a question. And his name's Jackson, and Jackson says, dear Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc. And then he puts in front of these, I apologize if I spelled Richard's last name wrong.
Richard He did.
Gerrit Which he absolutely did.
Richard He did.
Gerrit Yeah, it wasn't even, honestly, it wasn't even close. No, I'm just kidding. Richard's just happy that you spelled it phonetically.
Richard Oh yeah, no, I'll take an L-A-D-U-K-E all day.
Gerrit Look, Becky, Richard's wife, has been trying to get things together for their son to leave on his mission to Spain. And no person that she talks to, to get anything in his name, has the ability to actually just write down the name she gives them. What was the one that she got this week? It was-
Richard D'Lucci.
Gerrit No, something else. It was, I think it was actually, it was D'Luc. Was it D'Luc?
Richard Oh yeah, no, they swapped it. It's got that capital D, it creates a dyslexia. And her last name, her maiden name is Wilson. So she went from that. I thought she's-
Gerrit Yeah, it is tough. Well, luckily, my wife's maiden name was a Welsh maiden name, Einon. E-Y-N-O-N.
Richard So Einon to Dirkmaat wasn't much of a-
Gerrit Look, Dirkmaat's pretty rough. It's pretty rough. But either way, she was always having to spell what her name was. So I feel better about that. At any rate, as I said, it's kind of a similar vein. He said, about a month ago, I sent an email saying I didn't have any questions about Joseph Smith, but I was finally reading some material and found something that I thought might be worth asking. So here goes. I was reading in a book called As a Thief in a Night. I don't know if you have read the book, but it's about the Second Coming and the signs leading up to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. The author pieces together scriptures and quotes from the prophets and apostles, ancient latter days, to help people understand the symbolism and the timelines that are spoken of. It's kind of a fun read. And I know that there are some things like this that I should take lightly, like first, the author making assumptions based on his own opinions and political bias. Two, some of the quote evidence the author gathers and uses when it's a quote from a quote. Three, watching for when the author says it stands to reason. That's a very good talent.
Gerrit You ever see anyone say it stands to reason? It must not. It means they don't have any evidence. That's why they're saying that. But I was reading about the wars that will happen in the last days. I came across a quote from Joseph Smith that I wanted to know for sure if it was true or if it was one of those quotes that have passed through five different people. And he goes to list the quote that the author says, Many of the Latter-day prophets and apostles have provided us somewhat detailed information concerning the Great and Bloody Conflict, including Joseph Smith, Orson Pratt, Charles Penrose, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, George A. Smith, and many others. Joseph Smith, then the quote is, Joseph Smith had seen and envisioned the bloody destruction of the Jaredites as well as the cataclysmic wars that destroyed the Nephites. And he was also personally acquainted with the violence and mobocracy recounted that when the Lord showed him the vision of this future great war, he asked the Lord to close it up because the utter violence and depredations were so terrible, it made him sick.
Gerrit Now, that is a pretty powerful summary that the author gives there. That's his summation of what he thinks this quote is saying. In chapter five of this book that is dedicated to this rumors of war and war in America in this idea of preparing for the Second Coming, the citation to it is actually to a 1915 Improvement Era article. But as soon as I saw where the source was actually coming from, I realized, well, I'm not sure why you're using the Improvement Era from 1915 because the source that's cited to is Jedediah Grant. You know that Jedediah Grant doesn't have any quotes from 1915 because Jedediah Grant dies in December, December 1st of 1856. So any Jedediah Grant quote after 1856 is quite miraculous, in fact, if you were to see that. Meaning, why do I nitpick something like that in this question as we approach this?
Gerrit Because first of all, you're not going back to the most original source. The most original source is that published Journal of Discourses account of Jedediah Grant's sermon. That he's giving in the 1850s. But it also matters because by using the later source, citing it to 1915, it gets you past one of the real problematic aspects of early Latter-day Saint prophesying of destructions. And that is the American Civil War. In Utah in the 1860s, the many Latter-day Saints believed that with as cataclysmic as the Civil War was, with the hundreds of thousands of people that were being killed, that this might be the prelude to the Second Coming. And if you go and read what Jenna Dye Grant actually says, so the quote that the portion that was shared in the footnote of the book is, The Prophet stood in his own house when he told several of us the night visions of heaven were open to him, in which he saw the American continent drenched in blood, and he saw a nation rising up against nation, for he saw that the Spirit of God should be withdrawn from the inhabitants of the earth.
Gerrit The Prophet gazed upon the scene, his vision presented until his heart sickened and he besought the Lord to close it up again. Now this is being portrayed in this book as a reference to Joseph seeing how horrific the bloodshed is going to be in the last days on the, in the running up to the Second Coming. Now of course there is going to be bloodshed, but I'm not entirely sure that that is even what is being talked about because Joseph has prophesied of the American Civil War on multiple occasions. He's talked about how horrible it is going to be and in the 1856 prior to the American Civil War, I'm not even sure what it is that that Jedediah Grant is referring to. Let me read you a little bit more of his talk. We see it in the preparations of war and the framing of treaties of peace among strong nations.
Gerrit The world is in commotion. The hearts of men fail them for fear of the impending storm that threatens to enshroud all nations in its black mantle. Treaties of peace may be made and war will stop for a season, but there are certain decrees of the gods and certain bounds fixed. And laws and edicts pass by the high courts of heaven beyond which nations cannot pass. And when the Almighty decrees, the wicked shall slay the wicked, strong nations may interfere, peace conventions may become rife in the world and exert their influences to sheet the sword of war and make treaties of peace to calm the troubled surface of all Europe to no effect. The war cloud is still booming over the heavens, darkening the earth and threatening the world with desolation. This is a fact the saints have known for many years, that the gods and yonder heavens have something to do with these revolutions. The angels, these holy beings who are sent from the heavens to the earth to minister in the destiny of nations have something to do in these mighty revolutions amid convulsions that shake creation almost to its center.
Gerrit Consequently, when we see nations stirred up against nation and on another hand, see other nations exerting a powerful influence to bring about negotiations of peace, shall we say that they can bring it about? Do we expect that they can stay the onward course of war? The prophet of God has spoken it, and we expect to see the work go on and see all things fulfilled as the prophets have declared by the spirit of prophecy in them. The fact of the prophet declaring an event before it comes to pass does not necessarily make that event. If he should foresee war and predict it, the bare prediction independent of the event is known in the heavens, and which the world must read in the great chapter of events does not set Europe boiling like a pot. The prophet simply tells a fact that it is to exist, simply tells an event that is to transpire in the great chain of the providence of the Almighty relating to this earth in the winding up scenes thereof.
Gerrit Why is it that the Latter-day Saints are perfectly calm and serene among all the convulsions of the earth? The turmoil, strife, war, pestilence, famines, and distress of nations. It is because the spirit of prophecy has made known to us such things that would actually transpire upon the earth. We understand it and view it in its true light. We have learned it by the visions of the Almighty, by that spirit of intelligence that searches out all things, even the deep things of God. Can the wise men of Europe tell the result of the present war between Russia and Turkey with the allied powers? No, they cannot. If the present war should be suspended for a time, can they tell you when the next one will break out? What will the result of it be? But if you will listen to the revelations of God through the spirit of prophecy and to the servants of God, you may learn it with all certainty.
Gerrit Three days before the Prophet Joseph started for Carthage, I well remember his telling us that we should see the fulfillment of the words of Jesus upon the earth, where he says, The father shall be against the son, the son against the father, the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother. The mother-in-law against the daughter-in-law and the daughter-in-law against the mother-in-law, and when a man's enemy shall be of those of his own household. The prophet stood in his own house when he told several of us the night of the night the visions of heaven were opened to him, in which he saw the American continent drenched in blood. He saw nation rising up against nation, and he also saw the father shed the blood of the son and the son of the blood of the father, the mother put to death the daughter and the daughter the mother. And natural affection forsook the hearts of the wicked, for he saw that the Spirit of God should be withdrawn from the inhabitants of the earth, in consequence of which there should be blood upon the face of the whole earth except among the people of the Most High.
Gerrit The prophet gazed upon this scene, his vision presented until his heart sickened, and he besought the Lord to close it up again. When we hear of war in foreign lands, when we hear of the revolutions among the nations of far off, we necessarily infer that distresses incident to war and hottest of the battle will not come nigh unto us. It is natural for man to make favorable conclusions as to his own safety when danger threatens. But the prophet saw and visioned that war and distress of nations will not only occur in Europe, in Asia and the islands of the sea, but he saw it upon the American continent, in the region of country where he first introduced the doctrine of the Son of God, so we may look for a calamity in our own borders, in our own nation, as well as the nations of foreign climes. Some think because the peculiar situation of the country of the United States, the government being so well organized, little or no difficulty will ever come upon this continent, notwithstanding European wars.
Gerrit Allow me to tell you in relation to that, that when the Spirit of the Lord is powerfully manifested in any of the elders of Israel, the first thing that is presented to his mind is the shedding of the blood of the prophet and those who did the deed. It is no matter how much they deal in compromised measures or how often they try to adjust difficulties that thicken around them. It is a stern fact that the people of the United States have shed the blood of the prophets, driven out the saints of God, rejected the priesthood and set at not the Holy Gospel. And the result of rejecting the Gospel has been in every age a visitation from the chastening hand of the Almighty, which chastisement will be administered in proportion to the magnitude and enormity of their crimes. Consequently, I look for the Lord to use his whip on the refractory son called Uncle Sam.
Richard So that's a bit of a longer quote than you normally read.
Gerrit Yeah, sorry.
Richard I just want to apologize to everybody.
Gerrit Really for existing.
Richard It's a very powerful quote, but why read the entire thing?
Gerrit Well, I think as you were already probably garnering as I read, and I didn't read the entire thing, I just read a heck of a lot more of it than was in the footnote to this book. What was noticeable as I read more of it in context? Where does he primarily focusing on warfare in Europe, right? It's because it's the middle of the Crimean War that's going on, and which is this huge war where there are alliances that are going on and cannon to the right of the Mongolian thunder at the charge of the Lie Brigade. But you're laughing like you don't know Tennyson. No, I know.
Richard You make these references, and look, for six people, well, for two of the seven listeners that we have, they're going to love it. They love Tennyson. My understanding, Chris loves Tennyson.
Gerrit Do you think Jackson loves Tennyson?
Richard Jackson's got to love Tennyson.
Gerrit Jackson, if you don't love Tennyson, I need you to start loving Tennyson. Anyway, and you see that the focus is almost entirely on the fact that there's European warfare and the fact that Americans and other Latter-day Saints seem to think that they are going to somehow avoid that type of violence in the United States. And what does Jedediah Grant ultimately point to? You are not because you murdered the prophets. The timing of this talk that he gives is absolutely crucial to what he has to say, because the chastening that he believes that is going to happen, that every Latter-day Saint leader is going to believe that is happening when it's going on, is the American Civil War. This outpouring of war and bloodshed all across the United States that Latter-day Saints believe is, first of all, prophesied by the prophet Joseph Smith, and second of all, came about because the United States rejected the Gospel.
Gerrit Now, why does that matter? Well, because the way that this book presents things is that the United States is a once-promised land, a once-holy nation that is now in decline, and eventually that decline will lead to the Second Coming of Jesus. Now, I believe in the Second Coming of Jesus. But it's important that if what we're trying to do is to prepare people who are readers or listeners to what we're talking about, that we prepare them in the context of what these statements are. This is an example of a statement that is taken out of its context, presented with a later date than its actual pronouncement, cut to a point where it seems like what Joseph Smith is saying, I saw a vision of what would happen right before Jesus came, and I told God to shut that up, when what Jedediah Grant seems to be saying is, yeah, what Joseph saw is the cataclysm that's coming to the United States because of what it did to the Latter-day Saints.
Gerrit It's a hard thing for Latter-day Saints to wrap their head around, because American Latter-day Saints, many of them so often think of the United States as being in concert with the Church, that our 19th century forebears saw the United States as condemned. They saw the United States as sinful. They saw the United States as the enemy. They didn't see it as a nation in decline. They saw it as a nation that had murdered the prophets and driven the Latter-day Saints, who die by the hundreds into a foreign country. And it's only by happenstance that that part of that foreign country comes back into the United States. Obviously, I couldn't go through every single one of the quotes in this book to examine each of them, but I found that as I went through some of the things in it, this was a pretty common theme. That the authors are grabbing quotes that fit the need of what they're trying to argue about how imminent the Second Coming is, but without any regard to what the original intent of what was spoken is.
Gerrit Let me give you another example. In Chapter 6, titled Additional Events That Are Centered in America, the author writes, Though many of the events that have been described previously affect the entire world, they are primarily centered in or initiate from the Old World or the world around Jerusalem. However, in the previous chapter concerning the wars of the last days and specifically the wars in America, much of the more detailed information is about events involving America. There are several other additional prophetic events that are centered upon the American continent and which will happen during the same time as the events centered in the Old World. These will be briefly discussed, then put into tentative place in the general event line that we're trying to construct. Under the subheading, Missionaries Called Home, Lord Preaches Sermon by Earthquake and Storm. Just before the great and final wars are to begin, there is to be a unique event that only the Latter Day Saints can truly appreciate. As the earth becomes filled with the violence and the elements of nature are in commotion, still the great missionary work will go forth.
Gerrit We are a missionary people in times of trouble, great persecution, poverty, etc. We've sent out missionaries. However, there will come a time when the Lord will say, it is enough for now and we will direct the missionaries to be called home so that he may preach his own sermon with tempest, thunders, earthquakes, floods and other calamities. Now, to demonstrate this quote, is to demonstrate this point, the author goes on, Brigham Young preached the same sermon and in particular commented on upon the sermon that the Lord will preach by tremendous natural disasters and calamities after the world rejects the message of the restored gospel. Quote from Brigham Young. Do you think that there is a calamity abroad now among the people? Not much. All we have heard and all we've experienced is scarcely a preface to the sermon that's going to be preached. When the testimony of the elders ceases to be given and the Lord says to them, come home, I will now preach my own sermon to the nations of the earth.
Gerrit All you now know can scarcely be called a preface to the sermon that will be preached with fire and sword, tempest, earthquakes, hail, rain, thunders and lightnings and fearful destruction. What matters is the destruction of a few railway cars. You will hear of magnificent cities now idolized by the people sinking in the earth entombing the inhabitants. The sea will heave itself beyond its bounds, engulfing mighty cities. Famine will spread over nations and nation will rise up against nation, kingdom against kingdom and states against states in your own country and in foreign lands. Now that's bolded there, I think, because the point is to try to say, oh, this is going to happen in America as well. Well, that sermon is one that's given also on the eve of the American Civil War. And there's actually more context to that sermon as well, because after listing off these calamities and these things that are going to happen, interestingly, Brigham kind of, I don't know if he's sensing from the congregants that they're like, yeah, and they deserve that.
Gerrit Because again, they're thinking of this immediate destruction because of what the suffering the saints have gone through. Brigham says in a very rhetorical way, how do you feel, elders of Israel? Do you feel as though the tribulation would come soon? Would you like to have the scene commence this season and have the vials of God's wrath placed at your disposal? Would you like to unstop those vials and pour their contents upon the heads of those who have afflicted you and driven you from town to town and from place to place, from city to city, until you found a home in the mountains and have even followed us here, believing that they yet have the power to destroy the last saint? Would you empty these vials upon the heads of the nations and take vengeance upon those who have so cruelly persecuted you? Do you delight in the sufferings of your fellow beings? Jesus died for those very beings. Have you ever realized that the blood of Jesus, the son of God, was voluntarily shed for those very characters as well as for us?
Gerrit Do you not think that he has feeling for them? Yes, his mercy yearns over the nation that has striven for a score of years to rid the earth of the priesthood of the son of God and to destroy the last saint. He has mercy upon them. He bears with them. He pleads with them by his spirit and occasionally sends his angels to minister to them. Marvel not then, I pray, for every soul can be saved. Are they yet upon saving ground? Many of them can yet be saved if they will turn to the Lord. If a person with an honest heart, a broken and contrite and a pure spirit and all fervency and honesty of soul present himself and says he wishes to be baptized for the remission of sins and the ordinance is administered by one having authority, is that man saved? Yes. To that period of time, should the Lord see proper to take him then from the earth, the man has believed and been baptized and is a fit subject for heaven, a candidate for the kingdom of God in the celestial world because he's repented and done all that was required of him in that hour.
Gerrit So you'll notice just even the tone is incredibly different. The point of Brigham Young listing off the calamities isn't to say, hey, things are going to be terrible here and you better be ready for when it happens. Actually, he rhetorically turns it the other way around. What kind of Christians are you that you actually are looking forward to the fact that these calamities might occur, asking them the rhetorical question, would you pour out the vials yourself if you had them? It's actually a beautiful rhetorical device. And again, we know from Wilfred Woodruff's journal from Brigham Young's sermons that when the actual Civil War does come, they do believe that the Civil War is this prophesied cleansing of the United States that comes because of the things that were inflicted upon the saints at that time.
Gerrit In 1862, Wilfred Woodruff records in his journal that the war has cost the northern states some $500 million during the past year and many thousands of lives. And this is only the beginning of trouble. The close of 1862 will leave America with a debt upon her shoulders of $1 billion, a debt as large as the debt of England. The state of Missouri, where the saints have received their persecutions, is now the great battlefield of the West. It is now man against man and neighbor against neighbor. They who have spoiled the saints are now being spoiled. Independence in Jackson County, Missouri is nearly destroyed. It is the case with many parts of the state. The Lord has taken peace from the earth and all nations are still preparing for war. The Lord has pointed out the fate of this nation in the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants. He has said that when they become a ripement and iniquity, they should be cut off.
Gerrit That day has come. Their cup of iniquity is full. The whole nation, rulers and people, are filled with corruption before God, and the President and Senate of the United States are sending men to Utah to rule over this people as governor and judges who are so corrupt that they are a hiss and a byword and a stink in the nostrils of all the people in the streets. He goes on to say, after listing off some of the debauched people that have been sent to rule over Utah territory during the American Civil War, the American nation, as a United States government, is doomed to destruction and no power can save it. They have forefooted all right and title to redemption or salvation at the hand of the Lord or his saints. It is decreed that the measures which they have meted out to the saints shall be meted unto them, and they are hastening unto their work of desolation, war, bloodshed and destruction, and woe, woe is their doom.
Gerrit The spirit of prophecy would cry, O Lord, hasten thy work. Let the wicked slay the wicked until the whole land is cleansed from corruption, sin, abomination and wickedness, which now reigns upon the face of the whole earth. May the judgments continue to be poured out upon the land of North America until the blood of the prophets and saints is avenged before the Lord and thy words fulfilled upon the land of Joseph. Take away the scepter rule and government from the wicked and corrupt and give it into the hands of just men, even the saints, that they may rule in righteousness before thee. Give thy oppressed people, O Lord, the privilege of appointing their own governor, judges and rulers from this time forth, that thy kingdom may be established on the earth and the poor rejoice in the Holy One of Israel. You can see how Wilford Woodruff is responding to the horrific violence of the American Civil War. He sees that violence as the fulfillment of the consequences of the saints being murdered and driven out of the country.
Gerrit They see it as the penance of the country for murdering Joseph Smith and doing nothing about it. Why is that problematic? Because the author then takes this very same quote, these very same statements that they are reading in context of the actual American Civil War, which they see as the cleansing, and then saying, well, actually, these are all statements about the Second Coming and the cleansing that's about to happen that we all need to prepare for right now.
Richard So in a lot of the things in the podcast, you provide a lot of historical context to Scripture, specifically in the Doctrine and Covenants. And those things provide kind of a richer understanding of what the Scripture is telling us. And you read a powerful Scripture, a future podcast, we're going to talk about Doctrine and Covenants, Section 58. And there's some beautiful verses there, but then in the greater context, it's even more interesting or powerful in terms of what it is that the Lord is teaching. In this particular instance, this additional context, there's something you've mentioned before in proof texting. What is that?
Gerrit So proof texting is generally, in Scripture study, it's taking something out of context that serves the purpose of the argument you're trying to make in order to win the argument. Or essentially in order to present it. You may not be doing it deliberately, but for instance, let me give you an example of proof texting that someone could make. I'm not saying that they do it today, but certainly someone could make this argument. When the law of Moses is established, you can go read it in Exodus. When it's established, when this law of sacrifice is given, the Scriptures say directly that this will be a law forever to them, that this will always be a law. So someone who wants to argue against the divinity of Jesus or wants to argue that animal sacrifices still should be maintained, they could go to Exodus and they could say, uh-uh, it says it'll be established forever.
Gerrit This is a perpetual law. In fact, the phraseology is specific to the Passover. The Passover is instituted in Exodus chapter 12, and what are the Israelites told? This day shall be unto you for a memorial, and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations. Ye shall keep it a feast by ordinance forever. Well, that's pretty direct, right? Forever. So you could see why someone might later say, well, you're not a true believer in God if you aren't keeping that fast day, that feast day of the Passover, because it's an ordinance forever. Now, of course, what does that exclude? It excludes the fact that God might speak again sometime. And so if you just simply take what God said at one point and you don't allow for continuing revelation, there might be other issues.
Gerrit Richard, you have another good example.
Richard Yeah, so if you've served a mission or talked to somebody who has concerns about the Book of Mormon as being a scripture, you might have heard them bring up Revelation 22, 18, and 19. For I testify in every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book. If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto them the plagues that are written in this book. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the Book of Life and out of the Holy City and from the things which are written in this book. The Book of Mormon and the belief in that and those that perpetrated that are obviously people that are adding to or taking away from the Bible.
Gerrit Right, and what causes this type of proof texting? A lack of understanding of how the Bible came to be the Bible in the first place. That the Apocalypse of John, the Book of Revelation, is in circulation for literally hundreds of years before it is finally added to the Bible, to the library, to the collection of canonized books that make up what is today the New Testament. And there are of course all kinds of books that almost made it in and didn't make it in. I mean, some early canonization manuscripts include The Shepherd of Hermas, but I'm guessing you're thinking, I haven't read The Shepherd of Hermas lately, so that didn't make it in in the end. Some of them didn't include the Book of James. We're lucky for Joseph's mistake that they eventually did put the Book of James in.
Richard Even the Epistles of Paul are ordered by size and length when they were in. Right, exactly.
Gerrit And so this idea that the original intent of the author of John was to say, by the way, when this, hundreds of years after I write this, gets put together in a larger volume of collected scriptures and this one happens to be placed at the end, you can't ever add anything else to it, and that was my intent in writing it. I think the intent in writing that was, hey, people are forging all kinds of things. They're forging letters of Paul. Paul tells us that they are, and they are modifying things that people teach. And if when you get this, you change it, well, then that's going to be the judgments upon you. But that's not how that's generally used. I mean, we could give many examples of that. Now, why does all of this even matter? Well, we're responding to Jackson's inquiry in the first place. But I think we've already kind of covered the fact that one of the cottage industries of being a Latter-day Saint, and always has been, is to proclaim that you have some kind of inside knowledge about when the Second Coming is going to happen.
Gerrit Now, sometimes this comes from people claiming themselves to be a prophet and actually making a break away from the church. But as we've demonstrated on earlier podcasts, sometimes this comes from faithful members who just think that they have an insight that's so powerful that it can't be denied. In this case, this book is part of a larger effort made by several men to help awaken Latter-day Saints to the fact that the Second Coming is coming soon, like super soon. In fact, as you go through these writings, you find that the argument is that we are in that last couple of days before the Second Coming happens. Now, one of the fun things to do about reading apocalyptic literature is the signs that they think are the greatest signs that ever existed suddenly stop being very good signs because time goes on.
Gerrit You might remember if you are among the demographic of podcast listener that I am, of demographic of podcast broadcaster, the whole Y2K incident, not just in Latter-day Saints circles, but all over Christendom, people worried that in fact, because Y2K was going to cause our toasters to become alive and eat our refrigerators and planes were going to crash out and nuclear launches were going to, because the computers couldn't handle the rolling over, that everything was going to, you know, that was it. That was going to be the end. I was actually on my mission when that happened. And we were like, oh, man, we're going to have to hunker down. And, you know, I remember, you know, my companion was really worried about it. And I was like, I'm sure it's going to be fine. And my argument, maybe it just wasn't a very good mission.
Richard Well, no, we were also concerned about it, that we weren't going to be getting faxes for the Bible leads that we were getting from the television ads. I was served at the same time.
Gerrit You got media referrals?
Richard We got Bible ads from people that ordered Bibles that wanted to bash with us when we delivered the Bibles.
Gerrit I would have killed for that. Anyway, I remember having this conversation. I didn't feel terribly worried in part because the church hadn't said anything. I was talking to some of the other missionaries about it. Do you think this really could be the end? I'm like, no. Well, why not? Well, because if it was the end, President Hinckley would say, hey, everybody, this is the end because that's what a prophet's job is. And frankly, the premise of many of these types of YouTube, you know, channels, these types of subreddits and these types of books, however well intentioned they might be is to claim that they have some kind of inside knowledge that the rest of the church just is too sinful, too slothful, too lacking in understanding to fully comprehend. But luckily they're there to bring it to you.
Richard So I mean, they do say in this particular book, they talk about the importance of the Signs of the Times and the parable of the ten virgins. You're not discounting those things.
Gerrit Look, I believe that the Second Coming is happening. I believe that Jesus is going to come again. But whenever people attempt to place a timeline on it, they all have one thing in common, and that is every single one of them that has ever existed has been wrong. Now, what does that demonstrate? It demonstrates that when Jesus says of that day or hour, no man knoweth, not even the angels in heaven. Well, then probably you haven't figured it out by piecing together how many horns there are on the beast that Daniel saw. That's the reality. I know it's hard because we want to feel like we have inside information, but frankly, we need to live every single day as if it's our last day. You don't know when your life is going to end.
Gerrit You might be the pinnacle perfect health and on your way out the door tomorrow, get hit by a runaway bus. You wouldn't be able to see that coming. You wouldn't be able to prepare for it. And the reality is whether Jesus is coming to you or you are going to Jesus, you need to live every day like it's the last day because you don't know when it's going to be. Of course, every year we are closer to the Second Coming of Jesus. But when people make very bold predictions, when they begin to set themselves up as an interpreter of what it is the prophets meant when they said X, frankly, the church doesn't really need that. The things the prophet needs us to know, the prophet tells us there isn't some kind of secret understanding that if only you looked at the right way that the fig tree put forth its leaves, you'd be prepared for the Second Coming. You're supposed to be living your life today, like Jesus could come tomorrow.
Gerrit And whether he comes tomorrow or not, then you are living the Christ like life in which you can, you can go on. Why does it matter? You're thinking, well, what difference does it make? What harm does it do? What actually does cause some harm when people begin to project their understanding as superior to that of the prophets? We talked about this on one of our previous podcasts. You have people, and in fact, there's part of this book that assert categorically where all of the Book of Mormon took place. Even though the church itself asserts categorically that we don't know. So why then? Why if the church has taken a very strong position with an official statement, we don't know? Would someone then say it's obvious that it happened here? Why? What would be the point of taking that position that's in opposition to the statement of the church?
Gerrit And it's in part because you're trying to demonstrate you're trying to speak to a certain audience who you know wants to hear that. What people claiming that they knew when the Second Coming of the Second Coming was was happening is something that even Joseph Smith dealt with. This is not unique. This is the some of the earliest apostasies occurred from people claiming that they knew when the Second Coming is going to happen. Now, some people like Hiram Page were deceived by demonic writings on a stone that he'd found. Others used the language of revelation to claim that they had these this special understanding of when the Second Coming was. In in 1843, there was this this belief, and I've talked about it before.
Gerrit I told you someday we were going to talk about Millerism.
Richard Well, we're getting to it. Or we should. Should we tease it? Should we tease it and go next week?
Gerrit Talk about next time.
Richard I mean, Millerites, they deserve, I don't know, at least a whole new sponsored mailbag intro.
Gerrit The next mailbag is going to be William Miller's mailbag.
Richard He's not sponsored.
Gerrit Well, I mean, maybe we could find someone who does it. But okay, we'll talk about this. We'll continue this discussion on the Second Coming and how we can know what it is next week.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.

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As we have grown in popularity to four, possibly seven listeners, we've decided to go all in and have a sponsored segment.

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You understand how sponsorships work, correct?

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Second mortgage, put it all in the Sox. That's free money.

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Is there a better chance that they'll let nuclear inspectors back in or that they'll win the World Cup?

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You ever see anyone say it stands to reason? It must not. It means they don't have any evidence.

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So any Jedediah Grant quote after 1856 is quite miraculous, in fact, if you were to see that.

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What kind of Christians are you that you actually are looking forward to the fact that these calamities might occur, asking them the rhetorical question, would you pour out the vials yourself if you had them?

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But whenever people attempt to place a timeline on it, they all have one thing in common, and that is every single one of them that has ever existed has been wrong.

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And the reality is whether Jesus is coming to you or you are going to Jesus, you need to live every day like it's the last day because you don't know when it's going to be.

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More from this episode

Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.

Claim check

What critics say, and what the episode found
Joseph Smith saw a vision of last-days bloodshed in America so terrible he asked the Lord to close it.
Careful study of the signs can tell us how soon the Second Coming will be.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.

Take it to class

Ready to copy into a lesson or a text

When a book says "it stands to reason," or quotes a quote of a quote, go find the original source and read the whole thing.

Jedediah Grant's account of Joseph's vision of bloodshed came in the 1850s and pointed to judgment on the nation; early Saints saw it fulfilled in the Civil War.

Read in full, Brigham Young's "I will preach my own sermon" asks the Saints whether they really want calamity on their enemies: "Jesus died for those very beings."

Nobody knows the day or hour. Live each day as if it were your last; whether Jesus comes to you or you go to Him, you'll be ready.

Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.

Banter bin

The running jokes, for people who skip ahead
The sponsored mailbagNamed for Amos Kendall, then Samuel Osgood, and next maybe William Miller, until a family pays (0:39, 8:00, 62:30).
The crack research staffRichard "just knows" the current postmaster general, and Gerrit can see him reading it (3:13, 3:19).
Richard and the campaign slogansRumpsey Dumpsey, Colonel Johnson shot Tecumseh (3:22).
REO Speedwagon production meetingsCan't fight this feeling anymore (1:51, 1:58).
Sports betting format changeFor entertainment purposes only: the Sox at plus 15, Toledo over eight wins, and Iran to win the World Cup (9:30, 11:19, 17:46).
BYU accepts its bowl bid in SeptemberBefore the season goes wrong (12:04).
Joined the church before JosephRichard's wife's pioneer family, versus his family of converts (13:23, 13:43).
Japanese rice tariffsChris asks Richard to stop teasing them (17:15).
Episodes promised, never made38 seasons until polygamy, maybe stopping at 37 and a half; Millerites next time (19:12, 62:19).
Dinner at 3:30 at Coco'sRichard's Sun City retirement-community area versus Chris's Ammon experience in the Amazon (17:15, 19:33).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

Your question could be next week’s episode
Questions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
Go deeperWhere to read more.

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Deep dives the episode points toward
Read Jedediah M. Grant's full sermon in the Journal of Discourses and compare it with how it's quoted today (25:03).
Read the whole Brigham Young sermon behind "I will preach my own sermon" (41:38).
Look up Amos Kendall, A. G. Benson and the 1846 proposal Brigham called the Covenant with Death (5:55).
Wilford Woodruff's Civil War journal entries and how the Saints read the war (44:59).
SOT Litner · S2E35.