Signs of the Times Part 3

Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast, hosted by historian, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, where we explore the early days of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and gain rare historical insights into how a young farm boy was able to establish a new church and grow it by way of visions, manifestations and miracles.

Gerrit Miracles. Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.

Richard Hello, Gerrit. In this week's podcast, we're gonna start with Postmaster General Ebenezar Hazard's mailbag. What?

Gerrit Postmaster General Ebenezar Howard?

Richard Hazard.

Gerrit Hazard, hazard. Okay, that's why I was laughing. I thought you'd say that. No, no, no.

Richard Hazard.

Gerrit Hazard, hazard. Okay, that's why I was laughing. I thought you'd say that. No, no, no.

Richard No, Ebenezar Howard would be ridiculous.

Gerrit What's in our mailbag?

Richard All right. Kind sirs, I have listened to each and every podcast, several of them a few times. I'm a great fan. I will say, however, that your continual moaning about the magnificent and wonderful weather we experience in this part of the country has forced me to contact you. You Utah Mormonites are welcome to remain in your high desert with your earthquakes and droughts, two-hour commutes, six-month gagging inversions, your Jack Mormon neighbors and Point of the Mountain McMansions. We are busy building Zion in this area. We are busy building Zion in this area and don't need any more Salt Lake City transplants looking to beat the rush in complaining about the lack of Starbucks at Adam on Dayom. Please, excuse me. So please continue producing your excellent series of podcasts, but stay where you are. We'll be sure to have you after Michael has finished his meetings, or perhaps you'll be able to zoom it.

Richard With warmest and kindest regards, Blaine PS, for what it's worth, I thought your Missouri accent was spot on.

Gerrit Well, first of all, Blaine, thank you.

Richard Thank you. That's very funny.

Gerrit Second of all, they just got rid of zoom in my stakes, so I don't even think I'll be able to zoom.

Richard Probably not. And third of all, you can take that, Ari.

Gerrit Yeah, Ari.

Richard We also have a text exchange with a mutual friend of ours, Lisa, Gerrit, if you wanted to read that. It was in relation to our Yucatan, the archaeological digs that we were on, on the cruise ship.

Gerrit Yeah, the enlightenment that we brought to the world of science by going there. Yeah, she was commenting on that podcast, and I responded to her, Richard and I are just happy that we were able to locate Pahoran's mother-in-law's apartment, which is, of course, subletted. I'm kind of joking around about that. To which Richard responded, with the housing prices in Zarahemla, you bet she would sublet it. Based on my research, you should know that Richard's a licensed real estate agent as well.

Richard Absolutely.

Gerrit Jack of all trades. Based on my research, she would have been able to take advantage of the arbitrage between her pre-Amalickiah war rent control department and the increased housing prices that came with the influx of refugees from the city of Moroni. She would be able to pocket her limnahs of gold and summon her in the city of Gidi Amna. I'm sorry, I want to read that without laughing, and I can't. To which I responded, I think we should do an entire podcast discussing whether or not Gid Gidoni wanted to implement rent controls for the lower income segment of the population. Maybe we could do a revisionist history and just say that Kishkumen was just trying to democratize the electorate while we're at it. And those are the things we like to joke about, I guess.

Richard That's right. That joke that I made, the research on that was three hours.

Gerrit And that's not even the Postmaster General one.

Richard That's right.

Gerrit That did catch me off guard. I was not prepared for Ebenezar Hazard.

Richard So going back to the email, though, the email talks a little bit about the Second Coming and coming out to...

Gerrit He doesn't want any of us to leave our McMansions and come out to solely Adam on Dilemon with Starbucks. So he'll let us know after Adam comes. So in our entire conversations that we've been having about the signs of the Second Coming, really we just need to talk to Blaine. And Blaine, you text us when Adam's there.

Richard When it's over, yeah, just let us know.

Gerrit Let us know, hey guys, sorry you weren't a part of it.

Richard Anyway, from that we're going to jump into part three here of the signs of the times.

Gerrit When it comes to the authors of any book, one of the important things to ask yourself is what is the credentials, what is the biography of the person writing the book? What makes them a specialist? Do they have a degree that gives them special insight? Have they been published by a reputable publisher? That doesn't mean that everything in there is true. Believe me, I have read some horrific books published by university presses. But in this case, you know, this book is a self-published book, the one that the inquiry was about. Interestingly, although there are many implications both online and in the book that the Second Coming is very, very, very soon, in fact, it's so soon that we don't even have time to think about it, the book was first published in 1990. Well, here we are 32 years later, and we still haven't seen the sun turn black as sackcloth, which I believe will happen.

Gerrit This isn't a matter of not believing that the Second Coming is going to happen. I absolutely believe in the Second Coming because Joseph Smith prophesied of it. But what I don't believe is the way that I'm going to find out about the Second Coming is going to be because I join a Gnostic group of niche Latter-day Saints who happen to have collated enough of the statements that they feel like they know when the Second Coming is, or who share their own personal dreams and visions that they've had of the Second Coming. That's not how we get revelation. It doesn't come from someone's own personal vision.

Richard So, but there's a lot of listeners probably listening to this that where the Second Coming is something that they study a lot, something that they have a lot of passion about, looking for the signs of the times. This isn't an attack on, well, this might be this or this could be this, or, you know, looking at those particular things necessarily, is it?

Gerrit Well, no, I mean, but I also think that none of us are qualified to definitively state what sign of the time is being fulfilled.

Richard Oh, certainly.

Gerrit There's only one person who's qualified to do that. So when we read, right, Matthew 25, right, that there'll be wars and rumors of wars and earthquakes in diverse places, OK, and of course there are wars, there are wars all over the earth. But when I say, and this particular war is proof that the Second Coming is about to happen, I don't have the authority to say that. Only God does. Do I have the authority when I say, Oh, you know, there'll be famines and pestilences and sicknesses to say, Aha, COVID-19, that's the sickness that ushers in the Second Coming. A lot of this comes from not having very much historical awareness either. While we might point to modern diseases, as many end of times theorists do, right, we point to things like, you know, for a little while, even SARS was pointed to, remember, but that never became a big deal in America.

Gerrit But it was pointed to. But a special point to AIDS, the AIDS epidemic, which was, of course, horrifically tragic and even worse, that geographically is just so devastating in Africa, where there's less resources to combat this, that the numbers of the AIDS pandemic are horrific. What are those numbers?

Richard Yeah, it's around 40 million since 1981.

Gerrit Right. So you could easily see how someone might say, boy, this is those diseases. Whether it's one of the diseases of the Signs of the Times or not, it's horrific.

Richard Well, even the numbers for COVID, six and a half million and since, you know, essentially the beginning of 2020, those numbers are also terrible.

Gerrit And this is one of those experiences where when you're going through it, it seems incredibly terrible, especially if you lost someone to the horrific ravages of COVID or if you've lost someone to AIDS. I mean, the reality is when it's something that affects you, it is an incredible plague. But look at it by comparison of the Spanish flu of 1918 and 1919, where in less of a time period than the COVID pandemic has been, there were 50 million people killed. How many were killed in the recent COVID pandemic?

Richard Six and a half million.

Gerrit And of course people are still dying from it. There were 50 million. There were 10 times almost the number of people killed by the Spanish flu in 1918 and 1919 than were killed in the last COVID pandemic in the same time period. And by the way, that was when the population of the United States was half of what it is now. So think about that. The world didn't even have half of the population that has now, and that many more, the higher percentage of people that died. Now, what's my point in bringing that up? My point in bringing it up is, well, why is COVID the sign? Why is COVID the plague of the last days? But the Spanish flu wasn't. Well, the reality is, in 1918 and 1919, a lot of people thought it was the sign of the last days coming as it was on the heels of World War I. When we talked about post-millennialism, one of the things that kills post-millennialism is World War I. Because here are these powerful Christian empires that have been conquering up almost the entirety of the world by the time that World War I begins.

Gerrit The entirety of the African continent outside of Ethiopia is colonized by European powers, except for Liberia. And Liberia, because it had been purchased by the American Colonization Society and essentially financed by Americans in the creation of its state, was considered to be kind of an American protectorate. There's a reason why Liberia's capital is called Monrovia, because it's James Monroe, the president, right? But the rest of Africa is completely conquered by European countries. And Ethiopia, the only nation not conquered by European countries, not for lack of trying, Italy tried in 1896, they just got slaughtered, is the only major Christian kingdom in Africa. Ethiopia is a Christian kingdom, a Coptic Christian kingdom. Well, so you have this world that's just become as Christian as anyone could possibly imagine with these European empires, and then those empires attempted to kill one another.

Gerrit And there's 16 million people killed in that conflict.

Richard At a population of around 2 billion.

Gerrit There you go. So we have what? 7.5 billion people in the world?

Richard 7.8, somewhere in that range.

Gerrit So a population of the world, not even a third the size, not even a third of the population of where we're at now, and 50 million people die. You could work the numbers and do the percentages of what percentage of the world population died from COVID, and what percentage of the world population died from Spanish flu. My point isn't to say that one disease is worse than the other. My point isn't to say that when you see these things that they aren't growing signs of the times. My point is to say whenever someone says, hey, this disease, hey, this earthquake, hey, this war, this is the one that proves it, it's all conjecture. It's just them thinking that it is. And sadly and unfortunately, they often tend to have political overtones of what they happen to think politically, just so happens to be what their understanding of the current events are.

Gerrit One thing that troubles me especially, back to your question, Jackson, is whenever anyone begins to present any dream or vision or revelation that they've had in any kind of religious manner, publicly, I become very uncomfortable. Now, I don't mean to say that people don't have spiritual experiences all the time. I've had spiritual experiences. I've certainly seen miracles. I've shared some of those with people. But when you begin to say, I had this revelation and it applies to the whole church, well, there's a there you are on a dangerous platform there. In 2018, the author of this book posted to their Facebook page. Early one morning, two weeks ago, I was on a business trip and I was sitting and reading and pondering the scriptures and the events of the last days and what was coming.

Gerrit And the following impressions came to my mind. Now, I think I would have been fine had I then just read some impressions. If he'd said, you know, you really got to get your family in order, you know, you got to do that. But you'll notice the reason why I was incredibly uncomfortable as I began to read the early morning impressions of 7-25-2018. And it will come to pass. And it will come to pass that the time given to the people of America to repent will pass, and the wicked will gain control of the government again, and they will persecute those who believe in Jesus Christ and will not deny him. And there will be a great inequality in the land, and there will be a division among the people, and those who will not embrace evil will be few, and they will be jailed and murdered, and burdens will be laid upon the backs and many stripes. And some will flee to the mountains, for they will follow the prophet of God, and those who will not flee will have a day set aside by the wicked to be rounded up and jailed to be murdered.

Gerrit And some will be murdered, and the cries of the people of God will rise up to his ears and plead to him in the day and the night for relief. And because the people of America have knowingly rejected the God of the land who is Jesus Christ, and have set aside the laws that God established, and sought for evil and sorceries and witchcrafts, and have set before themselves graven images and commit many whoredoms in so much that they exceed the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, and murder the innocent, and have been lifted up in the pride of their hearts, and have persecuted and murdered the humble followers of God, the enemies of America will be allowed to come in upon the wicked inhabitants of America, and the prophecies concerning the cleansing of the wicked from off the promised land, and the other Gentile nations will begin to be fulfilled in earnest. There will be contentions and plagues and storms and droughts, and earthquakes and the remnants of Jacob will be seen as a lion among the flocks of sheep, and they will destroy without mercy. There will be mobbings and roving armies. There will be none who will be safe upon the land, except those who are guided and protected by the Spirit of God, and more will flee to the safety of the Rocky Mountains.

Gerrit And they will find food and safety, therefore there will come a great famine upon the land, a famine of bread and water, and the wicked will be swept off from the face of the land in great numbers. And peace will be established in the tops of the mountains. And the armies of God will be sent forth to build the city of God, yea, even Zion, the New Jerusalem. And the power of God will be with them, and it will be greatly manifested before them. And none shall stand before them, for all who fight against Zion will be destroyed. And the army of Satan will be destroyed by the power of God as Pharaoh's army of old. And the remainder of Satan's army will flee. And the city of God and his Christ will be established, a city of light upon a hill for all the world to see. And it will be in the center of the promised land. And Christ will come down and succor his people and heal their stripes. And the word will go forth, Go ye out of Babylon, gather ye out from among the nations, from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Gerrit Go ye forth unto the land of Zion, that the borders of my people may be enlarged, that our stakes may be strengthened, and that Zion may go forth unto the regions round about. Yea, the cry will go forth among all people, awake and arise, and go forth to meet the bridegroom. Behold, and lo, the bridegroom cometh. Go ye out to meet him. Prepare yourselves for the great day of the Lord, and the Lord will come to his temple, for it will be built and it will be glorious. And it will be a light unto all the world, and the righteous will flee to it, and its gates will be opened day and night, and they will come singing the songs of Zion. And all the world will be at war, but those of Zion will have peace. And the armies of the wicked will come out against the city of God, but God will fight the battles of Zion, and they shall be as a wisp of smoke, and shall not stand. And the armies of Satan will be gathered to Jerusalem, to the valley of Megiddo, and they will fight against the two witnesses of Christ who will withstand their blows for a time, and times.

Gerrit But for a witness, they will lay down their lives, and the kingdom of Satan will rejoice, and Satan will sit upon the throne, but for a moment. And then after three days, the life will return to the two witnesses, and they will rise up, and the world will wonder, and Satan will tremble. And the world will be cleansed by earthquake, plague and fire, and the sign of the Son of God will be in the heavens, and there will be a day and a night and a day given. And then he comes with the host of heaven, and the wicked will tremble and flee before the wrath of God. And the first shall be the last to receive the salvation of God. And then his glory will be full upon the earth. And the righteous who serve God in his Christ day and night, who have kept the commandments of God, who did not deny him, will rise up. And those who have been redeemed will be saved. And the fury of the glory of God will break forth upon the earth, and all uncleanliness will be destroyed from off the face of the earth. And the city of Enoch will return, and the sick will return, and the righteous will fall upon each other's necks, and weep for joy, and they will be of one heart and one mind.

Gerrit And the earth will be as it was in the days of Adam, and there shall be one land, there shall be a new heaven, and there will be no night, for the glory of God will be upon the earth sevenfold, and the Son of God will be the light of the world, and every knee will bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. And the Spirit of God will encircle the earth, and the lamb shall be at peace with the lion, and the lion shall eat straws of the fox, and the great work of the millennium will begin to forge anew the chain that had been broken, and Zion will grow to reach the heavens. Sorry, that was a bit lengthy, but that was all one post.

Richard But, I mean, there are many aspects to that, where they're pulling from scripture.

Gerrit Yeah, there are many places where, even though he's using the parroted speak of scripture, like, and it will come to pass, that he's using things that scripture actually says. And of course, mingled in with that is a whole bunch of other things that scripture doesn't say, right? And it will come to pass, the time given to the people to America to repent will pass, and the wicked will gain control of the government again. Again, I'm not entirely sure where that is in the scriptures. And again, if we're going off of what Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilfred Woodruff thought, well, they don't think that they ever didn't have control. So I am incredibly troubled by something like this. I'm troubled by it because someone is deliberately, publicly writing in the speech that sounds like scripture.

Gerrit Why? If your point is just to remind people of the Second Coming, then put up a quote from a modern prophet about the Second Coming.

Richard Or to put up quotes from the New Testament or Old Testament about...

Gerrit Even then, regardless, why are you putting it up? Now, that doesn't mean we can't contemplate on things. I contemplate on all kinds of things. But I don't, in scripture speak, go to my Facebook and say, it'll come to pass that Richard will never get his PhD.

Richard That's probably pretty prophetic.

Gerrit Well, I'm dealing with a lot of false prophets. And the other thing that's troubling about this is because the idea of the cataclysms of the Second Coming are so... There's something that we all believe is happening. And they also help us make sense of a world that seems increasingly wicked. Now, of course, a lot of it is based on perspective. I have students all the time in a history course say, the United States is more divided than it's ever been in its history. And I have to remind them that there actually was a civil war. No. Could we have another civil war? Of course, that could happen. But it's pretty hard to argue that we're more divided now than we were then when we actually were killing each other. Yes, it's bad. I'm not saying it's not bad. But beware of people who use superlatives to describe the state of the world in this moment, especially given the fact that they are also the ones who are saying, oh, it's going to get so much worse.

Gerrit Well, if it's going to get so much worse, then I guess it's not that this literally isn't the worst if it's going to get so much worse. And I think that the reason why that's troubling is, well, first of all, I understand why people gravitate towards someone who seems to be speaking almost specifically about exactly what will happen before the Second Coming. Oh, it was actually this disease, not just general disease. It was actually this earthquake. It was actually this time frame. Because when the world seems to not to be out of your control, sometimes you sit back and you think, boy, I can't wait for Jesus to come again. And because you believe Jesus will come again, someone who seems to be providing a blueprint whereby he will be coming can be very enticing. The problem is that that enticement can sometimes come in the wrong forms.

Gerrit The author of this book and his, he's not a co-author of the books, but he's someone who they start a foundation and a website together, essentially a business together. One of the people that whose books they featured prominently on their website talking about the end of times was Chad Daybell. Chad Daybell, yes, at one point, at least appeared to have been a faithful Latter-day Saint, but you actually don't have to read too much of Chad Daybell's stuff that he wrote prior to the horrific things that he did to realize that he was increasingly becoming a light unto himself.

Richard Allegedly, just in case he's litigious.

Gerrit Yes, allegedly. Well, I don't have to say he was allegedly excommunicated.

Richard No, that's correct.

Gerrit And that's what I'm talking about.

Richard Sure.

Gerrit Yes. Okay. Anyway, so one of the, again, one of the founders of this group or one of the person at least controls their company now, you know, I knew about him before I knew about, you know, the kind of end of times prepping group that he ran. And that's because he was the most prominent person in Idaho declaring that he, that, that Chad and Dave Bell and Lori Vowell were vindicated because he had talked to them and been assured that actually nothing had happened to the kids. That was all just a custody dispute and that the kids were totally fine. Well, and then the kids' bodies were found tragically. You're right. That's all still being litigated. But one thing that is definitive is the kids are not fine. That's definitive.

Gerrit They are not fine. Look, do people make poor judgments at times? Yes. But sometimes we make poor judgments because we're so certain we're right about certain things. And when people end up saying what it is that we want to hear, we tend to embrace that. Even if our better judgments were to be, why don't we follow the existing profit? I think one more thing that troubled me about this as I was responding to this inquiry from a listener was in going to the website, there was a statement that was put up there that really it just, I don't know. Let me just read it to you and I'll let you decide. I guess this author and the owner of the website, one of their pages that they have up on the website is Teaching Preparedness Advice from the Brethren.

Gerrit I am very, very uncomfortable with anyone who then says that they are doing what the brethren tell them to do. Frankly, you've all stopped listening at this point anyway.

Richard I'm not listening.

Gerrit Yeah, Richard started doing his taxes. It's not even tax season. I mean, well, business.

Richard I got an extension.

Gerrit Yeah, business, business, business.

Richard It's due in the middle of October.

Gerrit Okay, there we go. That's why it's an extension. But I'm very uncomfortable. And the reason why I'm uncomfortable is in my work, I have had multiple interactions with various members of the church. I don't mean to say that in a way that I'm somehow a special important person. There probably isn't general authority one who even knows my name. I am not important. I have no impact. I am not an important person. I've worked for the church, working on the history with Joseph Smith. And then I teach for BYU now, teaching church history and doctrine. But in those capacities, multiple times, I have had people tell me that something that they were pursuing was because the brethren wanted them to do it.

Gerrit That is a very loaded term in our church because it generally refers to at least the general authorities, but it usually has reference to the Quorum of the Twelve apostles. Several years ago, a man came to my office. He said, I knocked on the door, I opened it. I didn't know who he was. He introduced himself. He was dressed far better than I was. Clearly, you know, had some money and or just fashion sense. And he said, I need to talk to you, Brother Dirkmaat. It's very important. I said, oh, OK. Hopefully, this guy isn't like a church lawyer. And I maybe, OK, I'll stop teaching about plural marriage in my classes. That's the reason why I can't put it on the podcast. And he says, I am here. It's very important. This is what he says. It's very important you understand that I'm here because I've been sent directly by a member of the Quorum of the Twelve.

Gerrit Well, now I'm like, why did I write that article in the Journal of Discourses? You know, I mean, I'm not entirely sure, you know, why they're there, but I'm certainly I'm paying attention. He goes on to say, the Brethren have tasked me with talking to scholars like you to get them to help sort out this question about Oliver Cowdery's Letter 7 that he wrote that's published in the Church History. And the reason why that matters is because Cowdery in that letter makes reference to the Battle of the Hill Cumorah taking place on Hill Cumorah for people who believe that the Book of Mormon took place only in North America and not wide ranging, that they take that as their primary evidence. But this is very different because this person is saying that an apostle specifically told him to come talk to me, to tell me to write an article about it, proving that in fact, letter seven is uncannonized scripture and that anything that Oliver Cowdery said in that, even though he got the First Vision wrong, that anything he said in it is absolute truth and there's nothing, that that proves where the Book of Mormon took place.

Gerrit I was struck by this. First of all, I don't know why he's talking to me. After I had the conversation, we talked for a while and in which I told him, I said, look, I can write an article on this, but I can only write it the way a historian writes it. You can go back and talk to whoever wants, whoever sent you to come talk to me and say, I'm willing to do it. I'm not willing to already decide what my conclusion is and then write it. I'm not willing to do that because that's not now. I'm not doing history anymore. And it was troubling to me. Like I said, I mean, he mentioned the apostles and the apostle that sent him probably a dozen times in the conversation and with a great gravity and great force. So I, you know, happened to have a colleague who was very well acquainted with members of the quorum, the 12. And so I went and I talked to him and I said, hey, I just had this experience.

Gerrit What am I supposed to do about it? My colleague was like, I'll look into it. I'll check. He comes back to me and he says, there was no apostle that sent him down to talk to you. He said, as far as we can tell, this person had a passing conversation with an apostle where he tried to convince the apostle of the truth of where the Hill Cumorah gold plates were. And the apostle's response was, we should probably talk to some of the church historians about that. He then began to take that as an apostolic injunction that the church had tasked him to prove that. Now, I'm still taking that man in that he did it in good faith, but what he said and what was true, even if he thought it was true, were not the same thing.

Gerrit And frankly, that's not the only time that that's happened, where someone has said, oh, yes, actually, you know, the apostles want us to do this. And then when you go and ask them, nope. Well, so I am incredibly hesitant when someone says, the brethren say this. So let me go ahead and read that. Advice from the Brethren. This is from the author of this website. Again, that the book author and he are, were at least partners. Not long ago, a senior church leader came down from Salt Lake City to Lake Havasu and had a word with my stake president. Okay, already alarm bells are going off in my head, right, as a reader. Senior church leaders don't ever go talk to anyone's stake presidents. Unless there's a real problem. We could probably bring in a litany of stake presidency members and they would let you know that senior church leaders don't just pop in to say, hey, how's it going?

Gerrit So back to it. Came to have a word with my stake president, who then called me into his office for a special meeting to discuss the activities of this author and myself in getting people prepared. As many of you may remember, a while back, the author and I were holding preparedness seminars to help people better understand and prepare for the events of the last days. About six months prior to this meeting, we had made the decision to discontinue the seminars according to the guidance of the Spirit.

Richard That's good.

Gerrit If that's true, sure. I don't know that. They're maintaining that, so that's at least what they say. You could probably figure out if you found out when that was and when the last seminar was, but whatever.

Richard So cynical.

Gerrit Very cynical. During his visit, and the reason why I'm cynical, you'll see as we read further, during his visit, it was conveyed that it was the opinion of the leadership of the Church. Now again, why am I so uncomfortable? Because whenever someone says, this is what the prophets think, and that person isn't the prophets. I've got a problem with that. If you're receiving some kind of personal counsel, then guess what? It's personal. So I'm not okay with this is the opinion of the leadership of the Church. You might very well believe that. But the readers of your website deserve to know that when the Church has a statement to say about something, it doesn't come from your website. And that is not found here, is it? It was conveyed that it was the opinion of the leadership of the Church that the seminars that the author and I had been presenting were violating the free agency of the LDS people coming to them.

Gerrit The free agency was being violated. I can only assume that it meant they were going out with guns, duct taping people, throwing them in the back of trunks, and taking them to Hyatt Regencies where they were holding their seminars. Because that's what that means, by the way. The only way the free agency is being violated is if people are being kidnapped and forced to go to the seminars.

Richard That's the only way they'd go to a Hyatt Regency.

Gerrit He's such a Marriott snob.

Richard I am a Marriott snob, I love Marriott.

Gerrit He loves Marriott so much, and it's like, well, we could stay at the Four Seasons. Well, there's a courtyard that's...

Richard Hopefully next week, the Mailbag will be sponsored by Marriott. I don't anticipate it.

Gerrit I don't think he was ever Postmaster General yet. At any rate, back to this, like I said, this is on its face preposterous. Unless the next paragraph is going to say, we were locking people in the room and using hypnosis to force them to believe what we were telling them about the end times, then no one's free agency is being violated, literally by the definition of it.

Richard Well, he's about to explain.

Gerrit Well, let's find out. What's the explanation? The concern was simple. The author had apparently been doing such a good job of laying out all of the relevant scripture quotes, prophecy statements, and current events surrounding the last days that it would be all but impossible for someone to walk away from the body of the seminar and not know the truthfulness of it. Thus, by presenting them with and placing so much truth upon them, we were violating their free agency by not allowing them to disown, disagree, or even leave with a reasonable doubt. I can only say, if that were the case to the esteemed author, well, why aren't you using your time, talents, and possessions to similarly convince literally every person you've ever met in your life that the Book of Mormon is true?

Gerrit Just lay it out for them. They won't even have agency anymore.

Richard So, some unsuspecting person in the Great Lake Havasu area comes to a conference to get a discount at a Hyatt Regency, to get a discount on a wheat grinder and leaves a son of perdition.

Gerrit Well, because they didn't have the ability. That's what I'm saying. They lost their agency. Literally, the only time I've ever seen anyone use the argument that they were so good at arguing that they were taking away other people's agency. Frankly, this sounds like something I would expect to hear in a political debate. On SNL. Yeah, exactly. I don't want to answer the question because if I answer it, it'll be so overwhelming, it'll be so convincing, you wouldn't be able to handle it. And so, I've decided that I can't say it anymore. No, no, we really want the answer. You think you want the answer, but you don't want it. Because once I tell you the reasons why, you will not be able to disagree. I have personally never read any more ridiculous statement from someone claiming to have persuasive powers. I can say for a record right now, I haven't been able to take away anyone's agency and like Satan, I've been trying since we started this podcast.

Gerrit I keep trying to lay things out to the point where no one can disagree and the reality is they just still disagree. Anyway, let me go back to the statement.

Richard Let's get back to the statement.

Gerrit We were, the author, in effect, forcing accountability upon them and thus making them more fully accountable for that additional knowledge than they would otherwise be ready for. And then there's a quote from the scripture, for they cannot bear meat now, but milk they must receive, wherefore they must not know these things, lest they perish. A quote from Doctrine and Covenants section 19, which I believe, even though this person is quoting it, were I having a conversation with them right now, they could not tell me the context in which that revelation was received. But there they are telling people what it means.

Richard See part one for proof texting.

Gerrit Exactly. I was also counseled that the manner of our presentation was not how the brethren would prefer this information to be conveyed to the LDS members. They would from this time forward prefer to be responsible for the dissemination of that material in open public settings themselves. In other words, they were chastised for speaking things that they shouldn't speak. I don't buy for a second that a general authority from the church came down to talk to this person and told them, what you're doing, you can't do anymore because it's so effective, people have all lost their agency.

Richard So they don't actually even say general authority. They say senior official, right? They go actually out of their way at the beginning to not say it's a senior church leader, not a general authority. But that could be anything. A general authority actually has a definition to that.

Gerrit Well, since they use the term the brethren of the church and the leadership of the church.

Richard I know what they're trying to do here, but they didn't say...

Gerrit In either case, look, do I believe that someone in church authority told them to stop holding their seminars? Yep. Do I think that they told them to stop holding their seminars because they were so overwhelmingly convincing that they were robbing the agency of the people who heard them? No. Now, I do think that there is truth to the fact that I was counseled that the manner of our presentation was not the brethren before this information be conveyed. That's because it's what they were counseled was the brethren are the ones who prepare the church for the Second Coming of Jesus. We have the scriptures. We have the statements of the prophets. I'm not saying you can't research and write in those things, but that is not what's going on. We just read an entire Facebook post where essentially scripture is being created, declaring what is going on. And I think that's where, you know, the Rubicon got crossed.

Gerrit What's particularly interesting about the council provided by this good brother is that these books and this website were excluded from the guidance. Apparently members were willing to seek out who were willing to seek out this information by reading forum posts or studying books are are viewed from a different perspective than those who simply sit and listen. I suspect it has to do with taking much more deliberate actions to buy the book and read it and to participate here over the course of much time. Perhaps this is a central component. However, this is just speculation on my part. Yeah, it's a pretty good speculation since the entirety of early missionary work is based upon preaching to people. And we're saying that that doesn't have the same, you know, those people don't count, but someone who seeks out, you know, a subscription to the website, well, they're different because they obviously are more invested is the reason why. To this end, brothers and sisters, it is the renewed mission of this site to exercise great care and not violating anyone's free agency by confronting them with the words of the prophets and apostles.

Gerrit To me, this sounds like someone who is passive aggressively attacking the church. That's what it sounds like. Oh, yeah, I don't want to violate anyone's free agency by quoting the prophets. Yeah, because that's what the church said. The church said, don't quote prophets anymore. Maybe they said that you aren't doing it very carefully.

Richard Well, that's if this, that's if, first of all, that this meeting happened in the first place and that-

Gerrit Oh, I'm sure some meeting happened. I'm sure that they stopped doing it because they were told to stop.

Richard At this point, I'm questioning that he has a stake president in Lake Havasu.

Gerrit I don't even think Lake Havasu exists.

Richard That's how far I'm willing to go. But to the point, like the problem is, is that you can't believe almost any of this.

Gerrit Right. Well, let's go on because there's more. But wait, there's more. To this end, brothers and sisters, the renewed mission of this site to exercise great care and not violating anyone's agency by confronting them with the words of the prophets and apostles, even though the site is still littered with quotes from prophets. I don't understand what that means. Just because it is so, and we happen to know it, does not give us the right or authority to accost someone with that information. I don't know.

Richard How's someone coming to their convention accosting them?

Gerrit I don't know. I mean, again, perhaps they were at gunpoint forcing people into cars.

Richard I'm actually going the other way. I want them to renew their conferences. I want to go to one so bad.

Gerrit Well, it goes on to say, I was told in no uncertain terms that this is not how the brethren work and it is not how I should proceed in the future. And then, you know, one of the other buzzwords that you always have to be careful of is when someone says, obviously, when someone says, obviously, what does it mean? It means that the thing that they're about to say is actually not obvious because you actually don't state obvious things because they're obvious. You don't ever say, hey, the light's on in this room because the light's on in this room. And if you say, obviously, the light must have been on, notice there's a little bit of a weasel in there. You're saying the light must have been on. Why? Because you're actually not sure the light was on. You just assume it should have been. Well, there's a weasel word there. Obviously, this issue has nothing at all to do with the truth of the message.

Gerrit Right? So they've had this and now the obfuscation is, oh, but everything we were saying was 100% spot on. Quite the opposite, in fact. It has everything to do with each person's personal desire to accept more truth and light. And if they're not ready or able or willing to progress, then we should not push them along. Who do you think you are? You don't get to decide whether or not people have the ability to progress in the gospel. Again, not a prophet. I'm not a prophet, but I can tell you certainly aren't either, but you certainly seem to be taking some stances as if you were. They must come at their own speed and in their own time. I was told that we must present the information in the same manner as the brethren do it with gentleness, meekness, humbleness and long suffering. We're not to inspire fear, panic or distress as motivators. Temporal preparedness needs to be an outward manifestation of inward spirituality. Look, I don't know the people.

Gerrit I'm only responding to this because of the question that we received. But I got to tell you, there are all kinds of red flags for me. One, anyone who's writing things historically, who has no background in history and utilizes no historical sources outside of proof-texted quotes in order to make their argument. That's not a source you should be using. When you in your email said, I feel like you know that there's bias here, that there's people just taking quotes of quotes. All of those things are true. And look, I understand that there are people who feel really strongly about these things. I very much believe the Second Coming is happening. And I very much believe that we will see Signs of the Times. The great difference is I believe that we'll be able to discern the signs of the Times because we have a prophet. The point of having a prophet is he is the watchman on the tower, not us.

Gerrit We are the sheep. Our job, no matter how educated or wonderfully versed we think we are in past statements from prophets, our job is to listen to what that watchman says and obey. It's not about not believing that the second, I absolutely believe that Jesus is going to come, but I actually don't know when that is. And frankly, no one knows when that is. Some people affiliated with movements like this, you know, 20 years ago said that it'd be in the next 10 years. Whatever it is, the reality is you don't have to sit at home thinking, oh my goodness, if I don't study these things, I won't know exactly when Jesus is coming. You have a prophet. You'll be prepared for the Second Coming. If you're living the gospel, if you are following the words of the current prophet and trying to follow the teachings of the church and trying to live your life in righteousness, you are not going to be surprised.

Gerrit And as we stated last podcast, look, we should be far less worried about when Jesus comes to us because we don't know when that is, as it is when we go to Jesus. Because I don't know when I'm going to Jesus, but I'm pretty sure it's going to be in the next 80 years. Pretty sure it's going to be in the next 30 years, right? I mean, the reality is mortal life is only a very short time. And whether I live another 35 years and go to Jesus, or I get hit by a bus tomorrow, I need to be living my life worthily. And living your life worthily isn't about whether or not you've rightfully discerned which of the figs has fallen to the ground in a prophecy of the Second Coming. It is, are you living a Christ-like life? Are you following what a prophet is telling you about the things you need to do? There are many people who are more than willing to walk to Zion to set up the New Jerusalem, but not willing to show kindness to their fellow man.

Gerrit And Zion has to have that component. Hopefully everyone understands, I'm sorry, I get a little passionate about things like this. I am incredibly suspect when people try to interpret prophecy for the prophets. I believe the prophets speak for themselves. And when they want people to know that things, they let people know them. I'm sure this isn't the only time that we're going to talk about the Second Coming and the various prophecies surrounding it and the various claims that are made about preparing for the Second Coming. I think it's important that we don't allow our feelings about a specific doctrine to overwhelm the overall truthfulness of the gospel. I promise you, if you just assiduously try to follow the teachings of the current Quorum of the Twelve and prophet and First Presidency, you are not going to be led astray and you are not going to be left wondering where the oil in your vessel is.

Gerrit That's why you have a prophet. So thank you so much for joining us and we look forward to talking to you again next week.

Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.

Signs of the Times Part 3

Chapters

Transcript

Quote board

Source shelf

Blaine, listener email

Text exchange with Lisa about Zarahemla housing

Second Coming book from the previous episodes (self-published, first published 1990; author not named on air)

Matthew 24:6-7 (said on air as Matthew 25)

The book author's Facebook post, July 25, 2018

Oliver Cowdery's Letter VII (Messenger and Advocate, 1835)

"Advice from the Brethren" page on the author's partner's preparedness website

Same website page, the agency claim

D&C 19:22

Episode quiz

Which postmaster general's name was on this week's mailbag?

Fun with Numbers

From 1896 to 1990

Percentages said on air

Putting numbers to words

What this episode talks about more than usual

Names said most

Signature words

More from this episode

Claim check

Take it to class

Banter bin

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

In General Conference

Go deeper

Signs of the Times Part 3

Ebenezer Hazard's mailbag

Blaine, listener email

Text exchange with Lisa about Zarahemla housing

Second Coming book from the previous episodes (self-published, first published 1990; author not named on air)

Matthew 24:6-7 (said on air as Matthew 25)

The book author's Facebook post, July 25, 2018

Oliver Cowdery's Letter VII (Messenger and Advocate, 1835)

"Advice from the Brethren" page on the author's partner's preparedness website

Same website page, the agency claim

D&C 19:22

Which postmaster general's name was on this week's mailbag?

From 1896 to 1990

Percentages said on air

Putting numbers to words

What this episode talks about more than usual

Names said most

Signature words