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S2E39 · Prosperity Theology Part 2
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Standard of Truth · Season 2 · Episode 39 · 1:09:06

Prosperity Theology Part 2

Stillman Pond lost his wife and many of his children after leaving Nauvoo, and then walked west to Salt Lake instead of back east.

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The question ·

Does keeping the commandments guarantee temporal blessings like money, health and prosperity?

Richard

Richard and Gerrit continue Marlene's question about whether obedience guarantees money, health and success. They play a clip of Joel Osteen preaching to "ask big," then look at "ye shall prosper in the land" and Elder Quentin L. Cook's 2015 answer that prospering and wealth are not the same thing. Gerrit warns against a "Santa Claus Jesus" and shows how much the most faithful Saints suffered, reading from Wilford and Phoebe Woodruff's journals and letters about losing children in 1846. He closes with the rich man and Lazarus and with Stillman Pond, who lost much of his family following Brigham Young west, as proof that Christianity's promise is about the next life, not this one.

Who comes upWilford WoodruffPhoebe WoodruffJoel OsteenQuentin L. CookStillman PondAlmira PondMaria PondBrigham YoungLazarusJoseph SmithNephi
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Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, where we explore the early days of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and gain rare historical insights into how a young farm boy was able to establish a new church and grow it by way of visions, manifestations and miracles.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. In part one last week, we talked a little bit about Marlene's email where she talked about this idea of God's will and the connection between our obedience and faithfulness and prosperity, or blessings coming our way.
Gerrit And she used this specific example from her mission that she had been taught, and we don't know who taught her this, although we have a pretty good idea, that as long as you're working really hard and as long as you're super faithful, if you are A and you are B, then C will happen, and C is you'll have a bunch of bad-
Richard Because there is a law, Gerrit.
Gerrit Irrevocably.
Richard Decreed in heaven. And so we wanna talk a little bit about some, some, Gerrit taught quite a bit about Calvinism and kind of this idea of how this kind of has made its way into Latter-day Saint theology. Or not theology, but in terms of what people believe.
Gerrit In Calvinism, even to the point of, you know, we read how this ideology of, if people are suffering, it's obviously their own fault. You know, that type of was used to justify slavery as we read in part of our last podcast. So I think we wanted to bring this a little bit more up into our current culture so that you can see how in popular culture sometimes this is being presented and why that then kind of leaks its way into our belief system.
Richard So there's a scripture that's often used, it's found multiple times in the Book of Mormon. And on lds.org and the teachings and doctrine of the Book of Mormon and the teacher's manual, it talks about kind of this idea. In 1 Nephi chapter two, verse 20, and inasmuch as you shall keep my commandments, you shall prosper in the land and shall be led to a land of promise. Yea, even a land which I have prepared for you, yea, a land which is choice of all other lands. And so that scripture is repeated again and again and again. And in fact, in the manual, it even says, after that, it mentions that scripture says, though obedience may not always result in temporal prosperity, what blessings can we expect as a result of obedience to the Lord?
Gerrit The implication being you can't expect temporal blessings. You might get them, but you can't expect temporal blessings simply because of obedience.
Richard This is right. And Gerrit gave several examples in part one of this episode here, but one of the things that's so frustrating to me, and we're gonna get into this, but just this idea, this prosperity theology is such a false idea within the church that people have this belief, that there are people currently in Peru that aren't faithful or Guatemala or in places where they might be in complete and utter poverty, that it's because of their lack of obedience and righteousness. It's just, it's infuriating to me. And so we actually-
Gerrit I mean, in fact, there's, there's, you know, there are instances in which, you know, people by following the principles of the gospel, look, we believe in things like self-reliance and we believe in education. So it is true that by following the principles of the gospel, often people can better their status in life. I mean, at the very- At the very least, if you stop smoking and drinking and drinking coffee, you have a little bit more money every month, not to say anything of how that might affect your health, no longer smoking. So of course, I worry that someone listening will think that we're saying that God does not give us temporal blessings for following the commandments. The point is that's not the argument people are making. They're not making the argument that God's sometimes blesses us with temporal blessings.
Richard All the blessings that we have temporal wise come from God.
Gerrit Exactly. In fact, the nefarious part of this argument is that if you somehow just pray a little harder, if only you were just a little bit more faithful, then you would get these temporal blessings that you seek after.
Richard So we wanted to, in an attempt to be more multimedia, we wanted to play actually a little bit of a clip from a sermon that was given by Joel Osteen.
Gerrit Very popular Christian minister.
Richard Very popular Christian minister. His podcast is more popular than ours.
Gerrit Well, that would mean any podcast.
Richard Yes, except for one of Rachel's moms might not listen to it. But so in 2016, he's kind of known for this idea of prosperity theology. And so we just wanted to play a little clip here of part of that sermon, and then we'll kind of dive in.
Other I want to talk to you today about asking big. When God laid out the plan for your life, he didn't just put what you need to get by, to survive, to endure. He put more than enough. He's a God of abundance. And we see this all through the scripture. When Jesus multiplied the little boy's lunch, five loaves of bread and two fish, after thousands of people ate, there were 12 baskets full left over. And what's interesting is they had counted the people beforehand. Jesus knew how many were in the crowd that day. If he wanted to be exact, he could have made it where there would be no leftovers. On purpose, he made more than enough. That's the God we serve. David said, my cup runs over. He had an abundance more than he needed. Yes, we should thank God that our needs are supplied. We should be grateful that we have enough, but don't settle there. That's not your destiny.
Other He is a more than enough God. He wants you to have an abundance so you can be a blessing to those around you. And this is where the Israelites missed it. They had been in slavery for so many years that they became conditioned to not having enough, to barely getting by. When Pharaoh got upset with Moses, he told his foremen to have the Israelites make the same amount of bricks without the hay and straw being provided for them. I'm sure the Israelites prayed, God, please help us to make our quotas. God, please help us to find these supplies that we need. They prayed from a slave mentality, from a limited mindset. Instead of asking to be free from their oppressors, they were asking to become better slaves. Instead of praying for what God promised them, the land flowing with milk and honey, they prayed that God would help them function better in their dysfunction.
Other Are you asking today to become a better slave? Are you asking for the abundant, overflowing more than enough life that God has for you? God says you are to reign in life, that you are blessed and you cannot be cursed, that whatever you touch will prosper and succeed. Don't pray to get by, to endure, dare to ask big. Ask for what God promised you.
Richard That's an example. Now, Joel Osteen is a very popular preacher out of Houston. And the sermon goes on and at the end, he talks a lot about when God blesses you with the abundance, that it's your duty as a Christian to turn around and to give back. But this idea, this concept, this gospel or theology of prosperity is something that is actually fairly popular within Christianity today.
Gerrit And it's something that works its way because it's part of American culture. I mean, it's estimated that nearly 20% of American Christians see prosperity and wealth acquisition in these lights. If I am good, then God will bless me with riches, in this case with temporal riches. And then of course I will turn around and give those riches to other people. But the problem is what does that make the inverse? What does it make the corollary? If someone is not wealthy or not successful, what is the reason why they are not? You have to say, if you believe in logic at all, the reason why they're not is they aren't praying to God for that abundance. They aren't being blessed with God because for some reason they're not righteous. Or as Marlene pointed out, they're not hardworking enough. This idea I think is most often supported by, as Richard pointed out, it's erroneously upheld by the way we choose to interpret the term prosper in the Book of Mormon.
Gerrit When we read, if you keep my commandment, you shall prosper in the land. Our thoughts, like Joseph, when he first saw the plates, immediately go to temporal wealth and riches. I submit that that has more to do with us being fixated on the wealth of this world as the real gift we want, than the fact that God has said prospering means you're going to have buckets of money. The reality, obviously, is the case that are there any Nephites who suffer and don't get the blessings that they would get even when they are in times of prosperity? We'd have to argue that, right? I mean, what about all the Nephites who died in those wars to develop that prosperity? Were they just abundant in their life that they no longer have now? Of course, you'd have to look at that blessing as being in the next life.
Gerrit Interestingly, the Lord, we talked about how it kind of invade against this after his dealings with the rich man, but he also taught that your Father in heaven causeth the rain to fall upon the just and the unjust. Meaning, you can't actually measure righteousness on the basis of wealth. You can't look at someone and say, oh, well, they're well off. They must be favorite of God. There are plenty of very, very rich, horrible, horrible people in this world who got rich hurting others, running mafias and cartels or whatever. They not only aren't good, their wealth actually was acquired through hurting other people. Is that also God's will? Is God saying, you know what, I really like the fact that they're killing other people and stealing their money.
Richard So in addition to this idea of if you keep the commandments, you shall prosper in the land, you also have multiple times in the Book of Mormon where there is peace, where there is no more contention, fourth Nephi particularly. It talks a lot about the prospering of the people as they're following the commandments and that there was no wicked and there were no poor among them. You have also in Jacob this idea of seek ye first the kingdom of God and that if you do that first, then if you seek riches for the purpose of clothing the naked and feeding the hungry, that God will grant those unto you. And so there are multiple times and multiple places where the Book of Mormon talks about things like that.
Gerrit Well, and that idea is enough of erroneously applied that even Elder Cook felt the need to respond to it in July of 2015. In his article you can find on your Gospel Library app, Reaping the Rewards of Righteousness. Well, that sounds like we're ready to hear the Joel Osteen Gospel, right? And the next thing you know, you ask out of abundance, you don't have a slave mentality, and you're driving a new Mercedes, right? But what does Elder Cook say? He's responding to a question. This is the question, quote, Our family is not achieving significant material success. Is that because we are not righteous enough? But the very fact that someone's asking that question is ripping me apart inside. What have we done wrong to where people have come to the point where they believe that if they didn't get that promotion at work, it obviously is because they just aren't righteous enough.
Richard But I think, so while as heartbreaking as that is, I think perhaps all of us might do this from time to time when really bad things happen. Why is this happening to me?
Gerrit I think this is because we want to maintain control over our lives. We want to be able to say, oh yes, my son is sick. So if only I go to the temple more, he won't be sick anymore. And you know what? We believe in miracles. So it's entirely possible that through fasting and prayer and priesthood blessings that your son who's sick recovers. But that's not the problem that it precipitates a faith crisis. The problem is what if your son doesn't recover? Then what? Then do you have to blame the fact that you just weren't righteous enough? If only we did more, then my son would still be alive. You can see the reason why, although this doesn't sound pernicious, it is. Well, let me go back to quoting Elder Cook because he has keys and there's better things than me. The scriptures are clear that living the commandments allows us to prosper in the land, but let me assure you that prospering the land is not defined by the size of your bank account.
Gerrit It has a much fuller meaning than that. He goes on to say prospering and being wealthy are not necessarily synonymous. A much better gospel definition of prospering in the land is having sufficient for our needs while having the abundant blessings of the Spirit in our lives. When we provide for our families and love and serve the Savior, we will enjoy the reward of having the Spirit and prospering in the land. The definition that Elder Cook is giving is wildly different than what I think most people have in their minds. When they think of the Nephites prospering, they first of all apply it to themselves as individuals becoming wealthy. Well, you know, the whole pride cycle is, you know, the Nephites are righteous, so God blesses them with riches. And because they're rich, they stop listening to God.
Gerrit And that's the right that you all heard this at some point. There's a couple of problems with applying this to ourselves. The Nephites are collectively told that they will be blessed by God, but not told that it will be absolutely in the form of riches and rather than other blessings, and also not told that it would be every single person. Do we really believe that there were none who weren't poorer than others? They obviously were. There obviously were divisions of wealth in that society because when the Lord comes, what does he do? There's a society that's formed after him in which they share all their wealth. Well, if they'd already been sharing all their wealth, that wouldn't really have been necessary, right? At any rate, just think back to the last terrible economic crisis that took place in the United States in 2008, 2009.
Gerrit There are tens of thousands of people all over this country who lost their homes, millions of people who lost their jobs, and hundreds of thousands who lost their homes weren't able to make the payments. And it was catastrophic for many people. There are thousands of people who are members of the church who lost their jobs and experienced that horrible economic recession. I hope that no one listening thinks that the only reason why certain people lost their jobs is that they just weren't praying enough. Oh, if only Bill, who's repented of his fornication at this point, if only Bill had just had more faith, then he wouldn't have lost his home. If only Bill would have paid his tithing more faithfully. That mentality is the kind of mentality that I've referred to before as the kind of Santa Claus Jesus mentality.
Gerrit Right? What do I mean by that? Well, we often think of God as being Santa Claus. He's an intergalactic Santa Claus. If we do good things, then he gives us good presents. But if we do bad things, then we get a lump of coal. Or as the Dutch Christmas tradition I was raised with, you don't just get a lump of coal. You get beaten, put in a burlap bag, taken to Spain and forced to work in the coal mines. That's a little bit more extreme. But also, you're going to be a better kid. But that's all temporal, right? The Santa Claus Jesus that we have fantasized up in our mind is all about getting what we want right now. And notice that we're not terribly far removed from the pagans of 2000 years ago. Because why did they sacrifice that goat to Zeus?
Gerrit Because I want my crops to grow right now. And if those crops didn't grow, it was obvious because Zeus wasn't happy. Because I didn't venerate him the right way. Too many of us have the same mentality when it comes to temporal blessings or the sufferings that are incident to this often horrific mortality. What did I do to deserve this? I don't understand. I've been going to church. I've been reading my scriptures. Why did God let this happen? Why didn't God take this away? Why wasn't I healed from this? Why are we suffering? Why did my husband lose his job? Why did my wife lose her job? Why did we lose our house together? I mean, this, the idea that if only we do good things, no bad thing will ever happen to us is just not true. And we have it not only in the experiences all over the world, we have it from the Lord himself.
Gerrit In the world, you will have tribulation. Now the promise he gives is, but fear not, I have overcome the world. Eventually, you won't suffer because Jesus has performed an atonement that will make all things right at some point. But it's not right now. I absolutely think we should thank God for whatever blessings he deems to give to us. Everything, the world all belongs to the Lord and so any blessings he does give us, we should show gratitude. We should acknowledge that God is sovereign. But it is wrong to believe that we can calculate exactly how much wealth we'll have by how much righteousness we put forth, or that we'll figure out how many intransigent Germans would find their way to the baptismal font because I just, I read my scriptures for eight hours today instead of for seven.
Gerrit The reality is that mentality can lead to a crushing sense of failure. Don't misunderstand me. If you are currently sinning, which we all are, but if you are currently sinning in a terrible way, and you find yourself bereft of the spirit, yeah, you might need to change how you're acting. If you are suffering the effects of a physical thing you're doing. I mean, if you are currently listening to this podcast from jail because you stole something, you robbed a bank, well, yeah, you're suffering in consequence of your actions.
Richard But we do appreciate that you're listening.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard We love every listener.
Gerrit We want to be number one on the jailhouse dial.
Richard Number one at the point of the mountain.
Gerrit Well, until they move that.
Richard Yeah, that's right.
Gerrit And that's going to be the problem.
Richard Number one in Tooele.
Gerrit We need to be number one. We need to be number one with, I'm sure they don't really allow the podcast to be downloaded. But the pernicious aspect of that is what it causes us to do to ourselves. All of us have feelings of inadequacy.
Richard All of us.
Gerrit Every person, even the people who claim that they don't, the people that you look at and you see and you say, oh man, boy, that lady, she has it all together. She doesn't ever doubt herself. The only reason you think that is because you haven't asked her that question or she hasn't been honest when you asked. Because yes, she doubts herself. Everybody does. But more importantly is that we understand just the depths of how many good people have suffered. I'd like to demonstrate this by sharing with you some experiences from Wilford Woodruff's life. It's hard to find a more devoted person to the Gospel than Phoebe and Wilford Woodruff. Phoebe, for instance, is essentially abandoned by her family when she converts to the Gospel. They reject her for the fact that she converted and she doesn't care.
Gerrit She walks to Kirtland and joins the rest of the Saints there. Similarly, Wilford Woodruff, when he converts, he is all in to the Gospel. He is going to spend much of the next part of his life serving every mission he can possibly serve, because he is doing whatever the Lord wants. It's really hard to argue that Phoebe and Wilford are just not hardworking, or they are just not devoted, or they are just not praying enough. In fact, if you ever read Wilford Woodruff's journals, you will have to read them. They are multiple volumes. They are massive because he kept a journal almost every day after his conversion. You see that his conversion is not skin deep. He is consumed completely and totally by the gospel of Jesus Christ. It's all he thinks about. He is desperate to serve the Lord.
Gerrit He berates himself when he feels like he hasn't done a good enough job, and yet he is constantly serving these missions. Well, on one of those missions. In 1840, he is in England, and he receives a letter from Phoebe, his wife. My dear Wilford, she writes, What will be your feelings when I say that yesterday I was called to witness the departure of our little Sarah Emma from this world? Yes, she is gone. The relentless hand of death has snatched her from my embrace. But oh, she was too lovely, too kind, too affectionate to live in this wicked world. Sarah Emma was their little two-year-old toddler. When looking at her, I've often thought how I should feel to have to part with her. I thought that I could not live without her, especially in the absence of my companion. But she is gone. The Lord hath taken her home for some wise purpose.
Gerrit It is a trial to me. But the Lord has stood by me in a wonderful manner. And I can see and feel that he has taken her home and will take better care of her than I possibly could for a little while until I go to meet her. Yes, Wilford, we have one little angel in heaven. And I think it likely her spirit has visited you before this time. It is hard living without her. She used to call for her poor papa and putty papa many times during the day. She left a kiss for her papa with me just before she died. She ate her dinner as well as usual on Thursday, was taken about four o'clock with a pressedness for breath. The elders laid hands on her and anointed her a number of times. The next day, her spirit took its flight from this to another world without a groan.
Gerrit Letters pause for a moment and then you can tell she's writing the next part on a different day. Today, Wilford, I, with quite a number of our friends accompanying us, came over to Commerce to pay our last respects to our little darling in seeing her decently buried. She had no relative to follow her to the grave or to shed a tear for her but her ma and little Wilford. And then there's another break and she writes, I've just been to take a pleasing melancholy walk to Sarah's grave. She lies alone in peace. I can say that the Lord gave and the Lord hath taken away and blessed be the name of the Lord. May the Lord bless and return whole again. I would love to tell you that that was the last that Phoebe and Wilford Woodruff suffered. But it's not even the beginning point of it.
Gerrit Not only will they have another child that will die. Let me share this from Wilford's Journal. In October of 1846, the Saints have been driven out of Nauvoo for fear of not only mob violence, but actually federal military intervention. And as they go across Iowa, they are very much suffering. When they get to winter quarters area, you know, the winter is coming on and if you've, you know, if you've ever been in either Eastern Nebraska or Western Iowa in the wintertime, it really wouldn't matter which of those States you were in, you would be just as miserable. It is not a place to be in the wintertime and they are out here without any protection. And so Wilford Woodruff very dutifully goes out and begins felling trees in the local forest in order to bring back to winter quarters in order to build some rudimentary log cabins to protect people from this coming winter.
Gerrit Well, while he's out doing that, he has a terrible accident. One of the trees that he's chopping down, when it falls, it bounces up off of the ground and bounds backwards towards him, hitting him in his chest and smashing him up against another tree, shattering his ribs, breaking his leg and hip and his arm. He is a crushed individual and he is out there by himself. He's miles away from any help. And he is forced to get onto his horse with all of these broken bones and ride back to try to find help. He says, notwithstanding, I was so badly hurt, I had to mount my horse and ride two and a half miles over a rough road, my bones being so badly broken that every step went through me like an arrow.
Gerrit It sounds like a lot of agony. You know, I just wish he'd prayed that morning before he left and then that wouldn't have happened to him. I mean, if only he was more devoted to the gospel while he was out there following the prophets commands, chopping down trees in order to build homes for other Latter-day Saints. If only he'd been doing that, that wouldn't have happened. Well, of course, I'm being facetious. He is carried very painfully into a chair at home, and elders Young, Kimball, Richards and others met me in the street and assisted me home. I was laid upon my bed exhausted, where I lay without being able to move much until my bones knit together. They began to knit together on the ninth day, but I was not able to sit up in bed until the first of November. Also, he's multiple weeks, not even able to sit up.
Gerrit He's in so much pain. But you know, we all have trials, and maybe for whatever reason, Wilford had to have this trial so that he could, you know, be stronger in the faith or however we might try to style that, let's keep reading in his journal. November 3rd, I was dressed today for the first time since my accident. Everything's coming up Wilford. Things are looking up, right? The very next day, November 4th, our little Joseph was taken sick this day. He's their, I think, 15 month old son. He had taken a cold and it settled upon his lungs. November 5th, I this day walked to the tent alone with the aid of a staff. So he's physically getting better. You can see that. Joseph is failing, is dangerously sick. November 6th, Joseph is not any better.
Gerrit November 7th, I am gaining daily in strength, but Joseph is failing. I called upon the elders to administer to him. November 8th, Mrs. Woodruff has had to spend her whole time day and night with Joseph as he is in a dangerous situation. November 9th, Joseph is still failing. November 10th, Joseph had the appearance of dying in the afternoon and in the evening, but he revived at about midnight. November 11th, I spent several hours with Joseph, supposing each moment to be his last, but he again revived at midnight. November 12th, we found that our little boy was failing and he could not possibly hold out any longer. Every exertion had been made to make him comfortable and if possible restore him to health, but it seemed that he must go.
Gerrit He continued to fail throughout the day and the night. Sister Abbott took the main charge of him during the night as Mrs. Woodruff's strength was completely exhausted. He had suffered much from convulsions during his sickness, but he breathed his last and fell asleep this morning 15 minutes before 6 o'clock. And we took his remains to the grave at 4 o'clock in the afternoon. We truly felt that we were called to make a great sacrifice in this, the loss of our son Joseph. I would love to tell you that that is the end of the Woodruff's suffering. But part of the reason why Phoebe Woodruff is so exhausted, it's not just that she has stayed up all night with her son day after day after day as she slowly watches him suffer and die. She's also seven months pregnant at the time.
Gerrit And so Wilford's journal is going to record only a few weeks later, December 8th, 1846. This morning, Mrs. Woodruff was delivered of a son. The boy was alive and smart and active. We call his name Ezra. Mrs. Woodruff is doing as well as can be expected. December 9th, the child seemed quite distressed throughout the day. December 10th, Ezra Woodruff died this evening at half past nine o'clock. December 11th, we attended to the burial of our child today, being about two days old when he died. This is the second son that we've had to bury within a short time.
Gerrit Mrs. Woodruff is quite unwell. There's then a pause actually in Wilford Woodruff's journal. Rarely do you have pauses. I mean, in the case of his terrible accident, he wasn't able to write, but once he was finally able to write, he starts writing and tries to backdate things. After Ezra Woodruff dies, there's just several days where there's just no entries. And I'm assuming that that's because he just couldn't write. When there finally is an entry, that entry is about the fact that there are, there are all kinds of people murmuring in winter quarters, saying that maybe Brigham Young is a fallen prophet. People are beginning to sin. They're beginning to question the Lord. And that's what he records. December 15th, I met in council with the 12 high council and bishops. The camp of Israel is divided into streets, blocks and wards, and a bishop appointed over each to see to the poor, the widows, and to keep an account of what each man is doing.
Gerrit The 12 and the high council and the bishops meet each week to do business and to carry business teaching and instruction to the saints. There is beginning to be murmurings throughout the camp and much wickedness and the Lord is not pleased with it. It's interesting that Wilford Woodruff could have taken this opportunity to voice his own murmurings. Here he had nearly been killed and followed up that accident, that incredible amount of suffering on his own with the death of his toddler son and then the death only a few weeks later of his brand new baby. Not being the only children he had lost in his life. When Wilford a few weeks later, every year at the end of his journal, Wilford Woodruff would write a summary of the year's events. It's actually pretty cool because he would try to calculate how many miles he walked on his missionary journeys and how many people he baptized and things like that.
Gerrit But he also would give a summary of all of those events. And this is what he wrote. And thus another year has passed and gone into eternity and borne its report to God of me and of all other men. I still live upon the earth with my brethren, the twelve, while many of my brethren have been called into the eternal world. Remember there's going to be nearly a thousand people that die in Iowa and in winter quarters, both in that trek across Iowa and then in the difficulties and diseases surrounding winter quarters. Whatever I may have done or left undone, not pleasing in the sight of my Heavenly Father, I ask God, my Heavenly Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, his son, to forgive me and give me grace according to my day during the year to come and give me power and a disposition to do good all the days of my life. Be they few or many and save myself and my household and all committed to my charge. He talked about how odd it was that a year ago, he'd been in England preaching the gospel.
Gerrit And now here he was in the camp of Israel a year later, talking about the difficult position that the church was in. He said, we have been rejected by the Gentiles on this land or continent, even the land of Joseph and the Gentiles have shed the blood of the prophets and the patriarchs. Joseph and Hyrum and others have sought the lives of the apostles and saints and have driven us out of their midst. And thereby they have rejected the kingdom of God with the keys, oracles and revelations thereof, which we have taken with us and they remain with us this day in the camp of Israel. And it is my prayer to God that they may remain with us and our posterity through all time and through all eternity and that the blessings may speedily go to the Lamanites and that 1847 may not pass away until they begin to receive the gospel which the Gentiles have rejected and cast out of their midst and that the Lord will speedily deliver us out of their hands and avenge the spilled blood of the prophets that they may cease to spoil and be spoiled and they may feel the chastening rod of the Almighty and know that there is a God in Israel.
Gerrit 1846 has been a day of sacrifice for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Through the fatigues and labors and exposures of the Saints, many have been laid in the grave, and I myself have been called to part with two of my sons, which God has given me. They lie in the dust until the resurrection. And I came nigh to being killed by an accident by the fall of a tree. But through the great goodness of God, I was preserved and I have recovered and I still live, for which I feel to render the gratitude of my heart to my Heavenly Father. There is one part of Wilford Woodruff's journal that is very, it's very hard to read.
Gerrit I mean, all of this is pretty hard to read. But at one point, Wilford comes and finds Phoebe crying, essentially. And he writes that she refused to be comforted because of the children that have been taken away from her. One of the meetings he returns home and he finds Mrs. Woodruff took out of her family box, her portrait to see the likeness of her little Joseph that we buried. One of the falsities that people will sometimes bandy about to try to make themselves feel better about the suffering that these women and men went through is that, oh, well, death was so much more a part of their life that they just took it a lot better than we did. It was just so much more expected. Yes, there is a greater, you know, childhood and infant mortality rate.
Gerrit But you don't have to read very many of these journals to know that these people are just as devastated, every bit as devastated as anyone in our day is when they lose people. Not to be, you know, this, I feel like this has been a terrible downer of a podcast, but I would be remiss if I did not share with you another experience of another faithful member of the church.
Richard Well, Gerrit, before you do, I wonder, because it's interesting, one of the things that Wilford Woodruff talks there about kind of heaping praise on God for preserving Him. What about these trials and issues that we go through in this life? The fact that God consecrates those things for our good, that even perhaps people think that certain trials are given to them, perhaps, that they might have more empathy and understanding. What are your thoughts on that?
Gerrit Well, I'm not a prophet like Wilford Woodruff was. So, you can take everything I say with a gigantic grain of salt. But I think that mortality is such that we have trials that refine us if we allow them to make us more like God. I know that Wilford Woodruff went through some pretty horrific trials, and they seem to have made him an even better person. Now, I don't think I want to argue that God sent the destroying angel to kill his sons in order to teach Wilford how to be a better man. That God knew that incident to mortality, his sons would die. I think God knows everything. And so God doesn't intervene in those cases, or doesn't always intervene at the very least, but allows for those horrific instances of mortality to hopefully continue to help us on our way to perfection.
Gerrit I'm sure that God does give certain trials to people in order to help perfect them. But my personal feeling is more to the point that we chose to come to a world that we knew was awful. We weren't tricked into it. God wasn't playing a game of three-card Monte and we just picked the wrong card. Oh, sorry, you get to suffer now. Too bad. I think we fully understood how awful it was. At the very least, I watched many people in this mortality suffer before I came here. And yet knowing that, we still chose to come. Knowing that that might be the potential. That we would lose our loved ones. That we would deal with the unfairness of mental, you know, illness of, of, of financial hardship, of disease, of difficulty. That, um, that that would be something we would, we would come in contact with.
Gerrit I mean, this is what the Lord tells Joseph, right? All these things shall give the experience. Now the Lord doesn't say, I commanded the Missourians to beat you and to kill people, to teach you things. Right? He simply teaches Joseph the truth that even the horrible things in life that we go through have the potential to, to bring us closer to God. That is not the same thing as saying God caused them to happen. I don't believe that. I don't believe that God decided to kill my brother a year ago, leaving his two little kids at home, just so we could all learn a valuable lesson, because there is no lesson I could learn that would be more valuable than having him there with his kids and with his wife.
Gerrit I don't think that that's how God, what a cruel God we worship if we believe that God deliberately kills off some of us just so that the denser among us can learn a few things. Rather, I think we are in a world where horrible things happen. I'm reminded of a scripture from the Book of Mormon. Alma 6241. If you were a young man like I was, the best part of the Book of Mormon was once you got to Alma because it was just all war. You've got Pahoran, and you've got Captain Moroni, and you've got Helaman and the 2,000 warriors. I mean, you slogged through Isaiah chapters to get to this point, right?
Gerrit And so that war, the Nephites have been in essentially this kind of continual state of war, both among themselves with people like Amalekiah and with the Lamanites for essentially decades at this point. And when the war finally comes to a close, I mean, it has wrought devastation. You know, people have lost lives, their fields have been trampled down. There's all kinds of things that this war has done. And it's very interesting how Mormon sums this up. Behold, because of the exceedingly great length of the war between the Nephites and Lamanites, many had become hardened because of the exceedingly great length of the war. And many were softened because of their afflictions inasmuch that they did humble themselves before God, even the depth of humility. Obviously, no one in that war had the exact same experience.
Gerrit And you know what? That's the same for all of us in this war, the war on heaven that continues here on earth. None of us have the exact same experiences. None of us do. And in that regard, I can't say that every Nephite went through the same things, but I think it's pretty safe to say that all of the Nephites had some part of their family that had been touched by this long, bloody, brutal war. And it was so interesting that Mormon comments on this. Everybody went through the war and the war was terrible. Some people who went through that war came out on the other side, hardened and bitter and angry and turned away from God. And frankly, I don't want to say I don't blame those people, but you know, maybe having lost as much as they did, they just couldn't believe in God anymore.
Gerrit But then others who went through that exact same war, and again, maybe not exactly the same experiences, but they went through the same war, the very experiences they had drew them closer to God. And I think we all have the same possibility in our own trials. Again, I realized that my trials are nothing compared to some of your trials. At the very least, my trials are nothing compared to Wilford Woodruff's trials. They aren't even in the same ballpark as those. But we all, whatever our trials, whether they're the same or worse or better, we all have a kind of inflection point where we can shake our fist at heaven and say, how could you do this to me, God? Or the very fact that our gospel is a gospel of resurrection and eventual justice cause us to put even more faith in God.
Gerrit We can lose a loved one and say, God must not exist, or I'd still have my brother. Or we can lose a loved one and say, I am so grateful that the resurrection is real. Because without it, I would never see my brother again. But because there is a resurrection, because Jesus Christ lived and died, because Joseph Smith saw the resurrected Lord, that means Jesus Christ lives. And if Jesus Christ lives, then that means we are all going to live again. And if Jesus Christ lives and we're all going to live again, then I am going to see my brother again. Now, it does not take away the pain. And the days that go by are still filled with agony. But the difference is the belief in God takes us to a point where eventually, as Joseph saw in vision, everything will be made right.
Gerrit Everything. There is just no promise that in this world, you are not going to suffer. Anyone who tells you that is selling you something. They're promising you something that cannot possibly deliver. Remember, it was Satan who had the argument of eliminating suffering in this world. Something about mortality was necessary to make us become like God. And some of that mortality that we choose to enter into is indeed horrific. And it's in those moments where we are all at our inflection point. Do I rail against the fact that God does not intervene to stop all of the suffering I'm feeling? Or do I turn to God knowing that the whole point of Christianity is not about this life? And I've said it before, I'm going to say it a hundred times before this podcast series is over.
Gerrit And that is the whole point of Christianity, the reason why it was so radical. The whole point is that you are not worshiping God so that you can get blessings right now. You might indeed get temporal blessings and praise God if you get them. But the point of worshiping God is to lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, not on earth where moth and rust corrupt and thieves break through to seal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven. The whole story of the rich man who had such abundant fields that he found that one year he had so much of an abundance that he couldn't even fit all of his fruits in the barns that he had. And so what does he say to himself? Self, I will tear down my barns and I'll build even greater ones.
Gerrit Not I'll give this to the poor, but no, I'm going to be able to hoard even more of this stuff. And he does. And he says to himself, oh, I can now take my leisure because I have built these even greater barns. And as the Lord tells it, thou fool, this night shall thy life be required of thee. And the Lord's trying to demonstrate there that this man had the wrong blessings in mind. Yes, he had more crops than he could even fit in his barns so rich that he had to tear them down to fill up the new ones. But he died the next day. So all of that wealth and all of those barns was meaningless. The story of the rich man and Lazarus, Jesus also gives, right? That story is another beautiful example of where we should have our focus.
Gerrit This is from Luke chapter 16, verse 19 and on. There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple, which is, you know, the clothing of the rich and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. I mean, this guy's living the dream. He's rich, he's wealthy, he's well dressed. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate full of sores. Okay, so Lazarus isn't just completely destitute. He also has physical maladies, which maybe that's the reason why he is destitute. He can't work because he has sores all over his body. And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, the dogs came and licked his sores. And this guy literally can't get any relief. Lazarus' life is a life of suffering every single day. You'll notice that the next verse isn't, but because Lazarus was faithful, God cured all of his sores, gave him a big house, and then he was super rich and well off.
Gerrit If there really was a prosperity gospel, why isn't Lazarus saved from this horrific fate? We know he's a righteous man because we know when he dies, he goes to heaven. So why does he suffer even up until the very end of his life? And it came to pass the beggar died, and he was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died and was buried. And in hell he lift up his eyes being in torments and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedest thy good things and likewise Lazarus' evil things.
Gerrit But now he is comforted. He goes on to tell a further point of that story that people need to repent and live righteously in the life because it's really the rich man that we're talking about. But if you focus on Lazarus in this story, you'll notice that Lazarus does not receive any reprieve from his financial and physical suffering. He goes to his grave in that abject suffering. And it's not until after this life that Lazarus has that equity that could have been his in this life. For whatever reason, God didn't intervene to save Lazarus, heal his sores and give him money. And that's because the life that really matters is not this life. If you have to take one message away from Christianity, that's the message.
Gerrit The reason why it's radical, the reason why it's not paganism is it's not about this life. In the world, you will have tribulation, but fear not, I have overcome the world. It's in the next life that all of us as Lazaruses will finally have our sores healed and will finally have the fairness that we did not get in this life. One last story I want to share with you before we stop, and that is of another person from church history. You've probably heard of him before, Stillman Pond. Stillman Pond is going to live a pretty difficult life. Even before he joins the church, his first wife, Almira Pond, dies in 1833. Then his two-month-old infant that Almira had just given birth to also died.
Gerrit So already by 1833, he's lost his wife and he's lost his child. In 1834, he remarries. So again, things are looking up for Stillman. In 1844, his three-month-old infant, Charles Stillman Pond, dies. In 1846, as he's crossing the plains to Iowa, Lowell Pond, his nine-year-old son, dies. In October of 1846, Hyrum pond, another three-day-old infant dies. But Hyrum just so happened to be twins with another son named Joseph.
Gerrit Stillman named his sons born as twins after the prophets that had been murdered that he still believed in even though so many of his family had died. And even though in faith he names those sons, Joseph and Hyrum, three days later, he's putting them in the ground. I'll now cut to part of a journal of one of the midwives who was helping with the pond family while they were caught in their days of disease and sickness. December of 1846, Laura Jane Pond, aged 14 years, the daughter of Stillman and Almira Pond, died of chills and fever. Two days later, December 4th, 1846, Harriet M. Pond, aged 11, daughter of Stillman and Maria Pond, died with chills.
Gerrit Three days later, December 7th, 1846, Abigail Pond, aged 18, daughter of Stillman and Almira Pond, died with chills. January 15th, 1847, just a few weeks later, Lyman Pond, aged 6, son of Stillman and Maria Pond, died with chills and fever. And after every one of his kids has now died, on May 17th, 1847, Maria Pond, his wife, died also.
Other So.
Gerrit Stillman is going to leave Nauvoo, following the prophet Brigham Young, with a family that contains, well, if you count his twins that are about to be born on the way, with a family that contains seven children and his wife. And he's going to leave Nauvoo by himself. And it is probably one of the greatest testaments of faith that I've ever seen that when he leaves winter quarter, sorry, when he leaves winter quarters by himself, he walks west to Salt Lake instead of east. I don't know what all went through his mind, but if ever there was a time that someone might question the goodness of God, the only reason his family is dying out there in the middle of nowhere in a harsh and horrible winter is because unlike the thousands who lack the courage or who were led away by other false prophets, Stillman and Maria Pond followed Brigham Young and the Quorum of the Twelve.
Gerrit And the very fact they followed is the reason why their graves are unmarked and lost to history. Stillman Pond walks to Salt Lake. I don't know what was in him and his wife before she died that so thoroughly converted them that their hand being put to the plow of the Gospel wasn't ever going to look back. I think many of us have a breaking point in which we say I'm all in on the Gospel unless X happens, unless Y happens, unless Z happens, and then I'm out. There was no breaking point for Stillman and Maria Pond. They were in because the Gospel was true even though these horrors happened to their family.
Gerrit I am grateful that I haven't had to pass through the same kind of trials, but it is certainly not because I am a better person than Maria or Stillman Pond, or because I've just worked harder than Wilford and Phoebe Woodruff, or because I've just prayed more than Joseph and Emma Smith. This life is filled with suffering. It's also filled with joy and frivolity and laughter. But when those suffering times come, they are so hard to get through. All I can tell you is leave you the same promise that Joseph did, and that is that everything, everything that's unfair, all of your losses will be made up to you in the resurrection. And Joseph went on to say, I have seen it.
Gerrit He's not just postulating. He saw the day where we got everything back that was unjustly taken from us. So hopefully, we don't equate our success or failure in this life solely on the basis of whether or not we were working hard enough or whether we were praying hard enough. There are very wicked people in this world who have really nice houses. And some of the purest, most righteous people who have ever lived have suffered in unspeakable ways. And we need to just thank God for what it is we do have and look forward to that resurrection and the end of all suffering. Thank you for joining us this week.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.

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His podcast is more popular than ours.

RichardBanter

Well, that would mean any podcast.

GerritBanter

I submit that that has more to do with us being fixated on the wealth of this world as the real gift we want, than the fact that God has said prospering means you're going to have buckets of money.

GerritInsight

Well, we often think of God as being Santa Claus. He's an intergalactic Santa Claus.

GerritBanter

We want to be number one on the jailhouse dial.

GerritBanter

We weren't tricked into it. God wasn't playing a game of three-card Monte and we just picked the wrong card.

GerritInsight

And if Jesus Christ lives and we're all going to live again, then I am going to see my brother again.

GerritInsight

There is just no promise that in this world, you are not going to suffer. Anyone who tells you that is selling you something.

GerritInsight

There was no breaking point for Stillman and Maria Pond. They were in because the Gospel was true even though these horrors happened to their family.

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More from this episode

Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.

Claim check

What critics say, and what the episode found
"Ye shall prosper in the land" means the righteous will be wealthy.
Early Saints were used to death, so losing children didn't hurt them like it would us.
God sends tragedies to teach us lessons.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.

Take it to class

Ready to copy into a lesson or a text

Elder Cook: prospering in the land is not defined by the size of your bank account. It means having enough for our needs while having the abundant blessings of the Spirit.

Wilford and Phoebe Woodruff were as faithful as anyone, and they still buried children. Suffering is not a sign you didn't pray hard enough.

Alma 62:41: the same long war hardened some and softened others. Our trials are an inflection point where we can turn from God or toward him.

Lazarus got no relief in this life. Christianity's promise is about the next one: every loss made right in the resurrection.

Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.

Banter bin

The running jokes, for people who skip ahead
Because there is a law, GerritRichard's D&C 130 shorthand for Marlene's A plus B equals C (1:20).
More popular than usOsteen's podcast is more popular than ours, which would mean any podcast; maybe not with Rachel's mom (5:43, 5:51).
Bill has repentedLast week's Bill is back, now repented of his fornication, but losing his house in 2008 (17:53).
Santa Claus Jesus and the Dutch ChristmasAn intergalactic Santa Claus, and a Dutch Christmas where bad kids get beaten, bagged and shipped to Spanish coal mines (19:02).
Intransigent GermansScripture reading for eight hours instead of seven won't get Germans to the font, a callback to Marlene's mission (21:10).
Number one on the jailhouse dialFrom the point of the mountain to Tooele (23:02, 23:06, 23:11).
Slogging to AlmaFor a young man the best part of the Book of Mormon was the war chapters, once you slogged through Isaiah (47:50).
A terrible downer of a podcastGerrit apologizes for the weight of the episode before telling another hard story (43:09).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

Your question could be next week’s episode
Questions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
General ConferenceGeneral Conference talks that cite a scripture read in this episode.

In General Conference

Talks from the latest General Conference that cite a scripture this episode reads or names on air
October 2026 General Conference · cites 1 Nephi 2:20Love Like JesusElder Ronald A. RasbandElder Rasband speaks to everyone grieving for loved ones who have turned away from the Lord, acknowledging that lecturing and pressure often widen the rift.October 2026 General Conference · cites Matthew 5:45Quick to Help, Slow to JudgeElder Paul H. SinclairElder Sinclair recalls a Primary boy who buttoned his sleeve to his lapel and got stuck, and the little girl who quietly freed him while he himself felt only irritation, a moment that taught him to be quick to help and slow to judge.

Summaries, themes and lessons for every talk are on What Did They Say?

Go deeperWhere to read more.

Go deeper

Deep dives the episode points toward
Elder Quentin L. Cook's July 2015 article, "Reaping the Rewards of Righteousness," in the Gospel Library (13:09).
Wilford Woodruff's multivolume journals, including his year-end summaries counting miles walked and people baptized (37:40).
Stillman Pond's family and the deaths at Winter Quarters in 1846-47, where nearly a thousand died across Iowa and the camps (59:53).
Mormon's comment in Alma 62:41 on why the same war hardened some and softened others (47:50).
SOT Litner · S2E39.