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S2E4 · White Horse Prophecy Part 2
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Standard of Truth · Season 2 · Episode 4 · 46:42

White Horse Prophecy Part 2

In the first paragraph of a popular online version of a "John Taylor" vision, 40 out of 60 words differ from what Wilford Woodruff actually copied into his journal.

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The question ·

What about the vision of disease and sickness attributed to John Taylor that is making its way around the internet? Where does it come from?

Tricia (listener)

Richard picks up Tricia's question about a vision of a desolating sickness, now spread online as John Taylor's. Gerrit compares the blog version with Wilford Woodruff's actual journal and finds heavy rewording, and Woodruff himself never says the vision was John Taylor's. Richard then gives a tongue-in-cheek "calculation" from eclipses and cities named Salem to show how easy it is to bend numbers into a Second Coming date. Gerrit adds apocryphal sources like the Apocalypse of Elijah and the Gospel of Mary, and lands on Brigham Young's counsel: follow what you've already been asked to do and let the prophet say when.

Who comes upJohn TaylorWilford WoodruffBrigham YoungEnochElijahMary MagdaleneMary, mother of JesusPaulTheclaJesus Christ
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Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, where we explore the early days of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and gain rare historical insights into how a young farm boy was able to establish a new church and grow it by way of visions, manifestations, and miracles.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Richard LeDuc.
Richard Yes, Gerrit, in last week's podcast, we talked about the White Horse Prophecy and the Constitution hanging by a thread. We weren't able to quite get to the second question that we started talking about there, which was this revelation received or vision received by John Taylor that is kind of making its way on the internet right now, this book about disease and sickness. And so we can see how that has something relating to today. And so tell us a little bit about where that comes from.
Gerrit Yeah. So in this other question was about that John Taylor had this vision. And again, on certain websites and blogs that have a viewership or a readership that is very concerned about the nation falling apart. I mean, look, we are not the first generation to believe that the United States is at each other's throats. And we're as divided now as we've ever been in the country. I hear people say that actually all the time. The country has never been this divided. Do you remember the Civil War? Because it's like a big thing. Like people are being killed in it. I know that there's a hyperbole. And I'm not saying that I feel great about how much venom there is towards our fellow, you know, mankind in the United States. Obviously, it's troubling. It makes us feel uncomfortable. But when you say the country has never been more divided, you are making a patently false statement.
Gerrit It has been more divided. There were 400,000 Americans that were killed when it was more divided. Now you might say, well, we're coming to that. Okay, again, now you've turned into the prophet, where you've decided, you know, that we're headed towards a civil war or something like that. I don't know that. Maybe, maybe not. I don't know. But what do I know at this very moment in time? This is not the most divided the country's ever been. And anyone who's saying that apparently hasn't read anything from the 1850s and 1860s. If they had, they would say, oh, oh, that this actually is more divided, where people are being killed for this, as opposed to just threatening and making all kinds of slanderous attacks, which is what politicians have done forever. At any rate, this this vision that the question was asked about is, something that has made the rounds on the Internet quite a bit lately, but also very oddly, very poorly sourced and very poorly transcribed.
Gerrit And what I mean by that is that, you know, this is this vision attributed to John Taylor is everywhere on the Internet. It's, you know, a whole bunch of places and all of the places that have it. I'm just I'm pulling up a particular, you know, high ranking blog that someone has on there. All of them attribute it to Wilford as related by Wilford Woodruff. Right. So this is from Wilford Woodruff's Journal is what they're all saying. Well, immediately, as you begin to look at something like this, one of the first things that a historian does and that if you want to be more careful about sources that you accept that you should do is I know this blog is claiming that this is what's in the actual Journal of Wilford Woodruff. Is this actually in the Journal of Wilford Woodruff?
Gerrit Has it been transcribed properly? This is especially important when it's coming to things like revelations, visions, sermons, because the words that are used change the meanings. Let me give you an example of this. I'm going to read from the version of this that is on this blog. Now, again, it's saying that this is a vision of President John Taylor 1877, December 16th, 1877. I retired to bed about half past nine. That evening, I'd been reading a revelation contained in the Doctrine and Covenants, and my mind was calmer, if possible, than usual. So you have these first two sentences. I retired to bed about half past nine. That evening, I'd been reading a revelation contained in the Doctrine and Covenants, and my mind was calmer. I mean, one of the first questions I have is, well, what revelation are you reading? Because it sounds like that's what spurred your revelation.
Gerrit Well, let's read it from Wilfred Woodruff's actual journal. I went to bed at my usual hour, half past nine o'clock. I had been reading the revelations in the French language. So what he's saying is he's reading the Doctrine and Covenants in French. John Taylor served as mission president in France. And so there is not a particular revelation that he'd been reading. And in fact, he'd been reading revelations, plural, in French. Something that, for whatever reason, this transcribed version, however poorly transcribed it was, doesn't have it at all. Let's go to the next sentence. I could not sleep. So this is from the internet version. I could not sleep. I felt a dreamy feeling come over me, and soon I became partially unconscious as to where I was. Let's read it from the actual journal.
Gerrit Let's see here. I composed myself for sleep, but could not sleep. I felt a strange stupor come over me, and apparently became partially unconscious. Still, I was not asleep, nor awake, with a strange, far away dreamy feeling. Notice that the entire last part of that isn't in this version that's online at all. Yet, the version online is saying, this is from Wilford Woodruff's Journal. How do I know it's not from Wilford Woodruff's Journal? That portion, well, because I'm reading Wilford Woodruff's actual journal as we're comparing this. You can see the images of Wilford Woodruff's Journal. It's available on the Church History Library. The Church History Library, you can go type in the Church History Catalog, and you can pull up all of Wilford Woodruff's journals. It speaks to the fact that already, whatever is going on here with this version that's being presented as this vision, there are literally dozens and dozens of words that have been changed, left out or omitted purposely in just the first paragraph of this.
Gerrit In a 60-word set, 40 of them are different. That's a problem.
Richard So, it doesn't seem to change too much what's happening. So, why is it a problem?
Gerrit Well, it's a problem because, as I said, people will put emphasis on things that they think is a revelation. When something's a revelation, well, then every word in it is exactly what God wants it to be. Well, what if those aren't the words that are actually in it? Again, we kind of talked about this with Wilford Woodruff. Oh, people would kill themselves to go to the telestial Kingdom except even the source for that never said the word telestial Kingdom. So I'm interpreting something as the telestial Kingdom, not because a prophet said it, even when there's a poorly sourced version as that is from Wilford Woodruff. I'm claiming it because that's what I was told. That's how it was interpreted. Someone wrote it down that way, and now I'm saying it that way, and I'm perpetuating what was there. Let me go on to show another type of difference. Okay, so again, from the online version, the poor transcript will say version. Soon I became partially unconscious as to where I was. Okay, so that's where it ended.
Gerrit Presently, I discovered that I was in the Ogden Tabernacle sitting on a back seat to avoid being called upon to speak, which I found endearing. So now I do hope that this actually is true. After the second hymn was sung, I was called to stand. I arose and said that I did not know that I had anything special to say further than to bear my testimony as to the truthfulness of the Gospel. Okay, so that's from the online version. Let me read it to you from the actual Wilford Woodruff Journal. Instead of presently, I discovered that I was in the Ogden Tabernacle, it says, The first I recognized was that I was in the Tabernacle at Ogden, sitting on the back seat in the corner for fear they would call upon me to preach. Similar sentiment, but obviously very different words, which after singing the second time, they did by calling me to the stand. Again, still very similar information, but phrased completely, completely differently.
Gerrit I rose to, let me read from the online version, I rose and said that I did not know I had anything special to say other than to bear my testimony as to the truthfulness of the Gospel. What does the actual version say? I rose to speak and said, I did not know that I had anything special to say except to bear my testimony to the truth of the latter day work. So such a weird change, right? Instead of, why are you changing the truth of the latter day work to the Gospel in this? And who's making the change? Why are they making the change? They're clearly making a change to what was originally written. What's motivating the change? To the latter day work. When all at once, this, now I'm reading from the actual journal, when all at once, it seemed as though I was lifted out of myself. And I said, yes, I have something to say. It is this. Some of my brethren present have been asking me what is coming to pass? What is the wind blowing up? I will answer you right here.
Gerrit What is coming to pass shortly? So that phrase, what is the wind blowing up? Not in the online version at all. Yes, I have something to say, which is this. Some of the brethren asked me concerning coming events. Notice the change is one from what is the wind blowing up to what's going to happen in the future? It becomes not a, hey, what's going on right now? To what is the apocalyptic future? The shifts in phraseology appear to be deliberate to try to make it seem, this is more of an end of times prophecy than it is this dreamlike vision that is, again, purported to be John Taylor, but in Wilford Woodward's journal, this is how he enters it into his journal. First of all, the vision was supposedly received December 16th, 1877. It's entered into Wilford Woodward's journal in 1878, in June.
Gerrit Right after the June 15th entry, Wilford Woodward has this little caveat where he writes a vision, but the June 15th entry is actually helpful to this. It says, I wrote 28 and spent most of the day in the office. I had a very strange vision copied in the office today of a desolating sickness which covered the whole land. So Wilford Woodruff, he works in the historian's office in 1870, so he's essentially the church historian. And they copy into the history records this vision. But you'll notice he actually doesn't even say, this is John Taylor. That is what people have claimed. And of course, John Taylor does have visions and does have revelations, so it's entirely possible that it's him. That's not what Wilford Woodruff writes. So that also is another caveated problem.
Gerrit At any rate, this vision is going to go on to talk about some very horrific sickness spreading all over the country, which you can see why someone living through COVID-19 and wanting to find a proof text to say, aha, this is the beginning of the Second Coming, why they would be directed towards this source. Let me read to you from the online version. This is going to be pretty lengthy, so try to pay attention or just you've already stopped paying attention, but this is what it says, and then I'll go back and I'll read the other. I then found myself wandering about the streets of Salt Lake City and noticed on the doors of every house, including my own, badges of mourning and said to myself, can it be possible that I am dead? Just then I heard a voice say, no, you will live through it all. No one seemed to be passing along the streets and everything was as still as death, except the prayers of people could be heard in the houses.
Gerrit I saw no funerals and the scourge or whatever it was seemed to be under control. I then looked over the country, in every direction as far as I could see, a similar condition prevailed. And then I passed eastward above the earth and looking down saw many people coming west, mostly women who were carrying small bundles on their backs. And I thought it strange there were so few men among them. They were on their way to the mountains, and I wondered how they could get there as the railroads were abandoned and the rails were in bad condition. And I continued on my way passing through Omaha, Council Bluffs and Iowa and saw many women moving about in an excited manner. Sickness and death prevailed on all sides. The inhabitants of Illinois and Missouri were in a dreadful condition. The men and women killing each other off in the most brutal manner. Okay, so that's what's in the online version. Again, similar ideas are going to be in the Wilford Woodruff Journal, but they're not going to be exactly the same.
Gerrit Here, I'm going to now read from the Wilford Woodruff Journal, and I'm going to point out some of the major discrepancies. I was immediately in Salt Lake, wandering about the streets in all parts of the city, and on the doors of every house, I found a badge of mourning, and I could not find a house but what was in mourning. I passed by my own house and saw the same sign there, and asked, is that me that is dead? Notice that that's very different than I said to myself, can it be possible that I am dead, which is what the online version says. This, you know, wondering, am I dead? Did I die? That's not how it's written here in the Woodruff Journal. It's written that this statement, you know, rather than a question. I passed by my own house and saw the same sign there and asked, is that me that is dead?
Gerrit Something gave me answer, no, you'll live through it all. Notice in the online, heavily edited version, it instead says, I heard a voice say, you will live through it all. There's a pretty big difference than having a feeling and hearing a voice. I think most people would concur. That if you pray tonight and you receive inspiration, that you feel something in your mind, that's a little bit different than if you hear a voice say, actually, you should do this. Very different. They are not the same thing. Going on again with the Wolford Woodruff Journal. It seems strange to me that I saw no person on the street and my wandering about through the city. They seem to be in their houses. Notice there's a lot of hesitant language here. They seem to be in their houses. They seem to not be present. The online version? Nope, they were in their houses. It's very definitive. It's no longer hesitant. They seem to be in their houses with the sick and the dead.
Gerrit I saw no funeral possessions or anything of the kind, but the city looked very still and quiet, as though the people were praying and had control of the disease, whatever it was. I then looked in all directions over the territory. East, west, north and south, and I found the same mourning in every place throughout the land. The next I knew, I was just this side of Omaha. It seemed as though I was above the earth looking down as I passed on my way east, and I saw the roads full of people, principally women, with just what they could carry in bundles on their backs, traveling to the mountains on foot. As I wondered how they could get there, with nothing but a small pack upon their backs, it was remarkable to me that there were so few men among them. It did not seem as though the cars were running. The rails looked rusty and the road abandoned. And I have no conception how I traveled myself. Notice how different that is than the definitive of I wondered how they could get there as the railroads were abandoned and the rails were in bad condition.
Gerrit It's very different in what's being expressed. And then finally, as I looked down upon the people, I continued eastward through Omaha and Council Bluffs, which were full of disease and women everywhere. And the states of Missouri and Illinois were in turmoil and strife, men killing each other and women joining in the fight, family against family, cutting each other to pieces in the most horrid manner. That's far more information that's in the than in the online version. And anyway, he's going to go to visit various cities in this vision. I don't know whether or not this vision was one that was received by John Taylor. I'm not entirely sure of the authorship of it because of that. It is copied into Wilford Woodruff's journal, but even Wilford Woodruff says it's a very strange vision that he copied into the historian's office.
Gerrit Does that mean it's not true? Well, no. But does that mean it's true? And most importantly, does that mean it's how I'm going to prepare for what's going on around me right now?
Richard You know, I can think of a modern-day application of this. So in the fall of 2020, there was a great to-do about signs of the times of the Second Coming of the Savior. And there were several YouTube videos that actually had a lot of views and a lot of people looking at these different signs of the times. And the problem that I had with some of these things is that some of the things that they had were directly from Scripture, directly from modern-day prophets, but then a lot of the things that they had were, well, now if you read down one verse after what Elder Eyring said, or if you look at this or this, it's the obscure stuff that you're talking about.
Gerrit Yeah, I remember there was once something circulating saying, if you take the first letter of each of these verses in the Book of Mormon, it spells out Zion. Well, the problem is the Book of Mormon wasn't versified that way and with those kind of breaks until 1981, or it spells out Utah. I think it's spelled out Utah. But those verse separations with the footnotes, whatever, they weren't the same until much later. So sometimes people want to find the kind of secret, hidden meaning. They want to feel, it's an innate desire among everyone to feel like you have some kind of special knowledge. And really people play into that because it's something that you really care about, like the Second Coming. And so when someone says, hey, I have some insight into the Second Coming, our natural tendency is going to be to say, well, I want that and I want to hear it because I care about the Second Coming.
Gerrit Anyway, go ahead.
Richard Well, in one of the videos I watched, I had a couple of parts to it, and one of them specifically, they talked about the rebuilding of the wall of Jerusalem as kind of this beginning time of these 490 year time of preparing for Jesus' coming, right? And what they look at is that the time that Solomon announces the rebuilding of the wall in 1535. Well, why did they pick the year that he announced it? Why don't they pick the year that he started building it, which is two years later? Or why doesn't he pick the year that it finished, four years later? It was when he announced it, because when he announced it, then that allows for everything else to line up, right?
Gerrit Or why didn't they pick the dozens of other times that the walls in Jerusalem had been both destroyed and then rebuilt and then destroyed and then rebuilt?
Richard Yeah, right. Like the thousand other times that...
Gerrit Like the first crusade when they destroy the walls around Jerusalem and take Jerusalem?
Richard That's the problem that I have with some of these things, is then you go to obscure sources, and then what you do is you go just back in time to figure it out. And I think for our listeners, I think I've actually been able to put something together... . that actually, I know I've been saying...
Gerrit Well-sourced?
Richard I am the source.
Gerrit Poorly sourced is the...
Richard That is correct. Well, so we know that in 2017 that there was a solar eclipse. We know that that solar eclipse crossed over seven cities named Salem.
Gerrit Okay, you're starting to worry me.
Richard Well, there are 36 cities in the United States named Salem, but we're going to throw out 29 of them and cross over seven of them. Now, seven shows completeness or perfection. And seven years after that eclipse, we're going to get another eclipse in 2024, right? Now, there will be an X of those two eclipses in the United States over Carbondale, Illinois. Carbondale, Illinois.
Gerrit Not Carbondale, Utah, which would be?
Richard Boy, if it's Carbondale, Utah, that's going to throw my calculations out.
Gerrit I think we just need to consider the fact that there's another Carbondale. And we have probably four listeners there because there's five people who live there.
Richard There'll be a bonus episode after I do the calculations based on Carbondale. So, the distance from Carbondale, Illinois to Carthage, where Joseph was murdered, is 278 miles, seemingly insignificant. From Carbondale to Salt Lake City is 1423 miles. Now, if you take 1423 miles and you divide it by the 278 miles, you get 5.12. Now, what's the significance of 5.12? Obviously, the 1.2 was obvious, 12 apostles, both anciently and today.
Gerrit I'm glad you said it was obvious because I only now figured that out.
Richard Well, this is why I'm here. For this and also anything relating to Japanese rice tariffs. Yes. It hasn't come up yet.
Gerrit I want it to come up so bad. We're going to do tariffs and a whole, we're going to do eight-parter on tariffs.
Richard Now, five. Okay, well, what does five mean? Well, the Godhead is three. That doesn't necessarily make sense. First Presidency is three. How many people were able to see the gold plates in the initial, in the Three Witnesses accounts? How many people were there?
Gerrit Joseph and the Three Witnesses.
Richard And Moroni. 5.12.
Gerrit So five plus the apostles.
Richard That's right. Which means...
Gerrit Are you okay?
Richard Sorry, I get really emotional. Which means that obviously Jesus is coming back in May of 2024.
Gerrit Wow.
Richard You heard it here. Actually, ninth, because there's lots of people that say similar things.
Gerrit So I think the point of the satire here is that you can take a lot of numbers and you can take a lot of places and try to extrapolate out of them what it is that people should be gaining from this knowledge. The problem is it's all based upon what the person is saying. The interpretation of those things is. And, you know, we had a question that came from someone about whether or not the prophets who are in, that die in the streets of Jerusalem in the last days in the Book of Revelation, whether or not that would be Enoch and Elijah. Well, you're thinking, well, Enoch and Elijah, they lived quite a long time ago. How are they being? Remember, Enoch is taken up to heaven without tasting death, right? The city is translated and Elijah is also taken up to heaven. And so these two translated beings apparently would come back and be, well, you know, the sourcing for that is, you know, that there is an apocryphal book of Scripture.
Gerrit The apocryphal book of Elijah that discusses this. The apocalypse of Elijah is what it's called. The apocalypse, you know, this end of times has an uncertain authorship. And Tyler W is the one who had asked this question about it and wondering, you know, how does that juxtapose against, you know, other statements that apostles have made that will be one of the Quorum of the Twelve, that will be the two apostles that are slain in the streets of Jerusalem? Well, you know, when we talk about an apocryphal book, I probably should spend more time explaining what we mean by that. There are literally dozens and dozens and dozens of books that sound like Scripture that are in circulation shortly after Jesus' time, or some of them from Jewish tradition in circulation during Jesus' time, that some people take as Scripture and other people don't.
Gerrit Again, most Christians think the Bible fell out of the sky as an already completed book, but the reality is the Bible is slowly pieced together from very disparate books that have been in circulation themselves for centuries before they finally codify what is a canonical book, what is a book that is Scripture to us, and what is just something that's good to read but isn't Scripture, and what is something that is heretical, that is a forgery, that is made up. It's interesting that the New Testament itself, Paul's own letters suggest that people are forging things in Paul's name while Paul is alive. That's why Paul is having to reign people in. If it's me or an angel of heaven that preaches something different to you, let them be accursed. But these books that are all in circulation are often the place that people turn when they're trying to find different insights into what is going to happen in the end times, how the church is going to be established, what's going on.
Gerrit Because it hasn't been revealed through regular channels yet, they look to see if perhaps there's some kind of revelation that has come through these other books. And that tradition or that idea that it would be Enoch and Elijah that would return is something that stems from one of these apocryphal books, an unknown author, unknown time, but adopted by some early Christians as being true, this apocalypse of Elijah. You know, how much water would you put into that? Well, frankly, none. That's not how we receive revelation. Is it possible that the two prophets are Elijah and Enoch? I guess, but when you're talking about religion, always whatever you say is possible, right? So is it possible that Jesus can turn the entire Pacific Ocean into landmass so that people can gather together that way?
Gerrit Sure. I mean, it's God. So yeah, God can do whatever God wants to do. That's not the same thing as saying, and this is how he's going to do it. And so in response to that question, I don't think we know, but I certainly don't think we have any more insight from what is likely a Christian forgery of where someone's claiming that they have ancient access to these, you know, to what Elijah saw, when in fact no scholar actually believes Elijah wrote that. So, you know, we see this actually a lot. I remember the first time I confronted apocryphal gospels on my mission. That makes it sound very antagonistic, but it kind of was. And that was someone who was quoting to us. We saw it, we talked to him, and he had been reading very heavily in the Gospel of Thomas, and began quoting to us aspects of the Gospel of Thomas, which seemed pretty far out, which I also seemed, you know, which was.
Gerrit And many of these Gnostic Gospels, we talked about this once when we talked about Doctrine and Coven, Section 49. Many of these early Christian heretical Gospels that never made their way into the Scriptures, that were written much later, but they were given these false, you know, these false names. They were given, you know, titles of, oh, this is, you know, the Acts of Paul and Thecla. Well, scholars don't believe that Paul and Thecla wrote that. They believe the Acts of Paul and Thecla were written a century after Paul is dead. Well, the author of that forgery wants their point to get across, so what do they do? They make Paul the author, and so now people are going to listen. Recently, you see people doing this with the Gospel of Mary. The Gospel of Mary is something that is, I've heard multiple people quoting it, and interestingly, the people quoting it don't even seem to understand the context or history behind what they're even quoting.
Gerrit There is not a scholar anywhere on earth who believes that Mary, the mother of Jesus, or Mary Magdalene, which are the two Marys, which even scholars, scholars not only don't know who wrote it, they actually can't agree on who the person who forged the document was trying to imitate when they forged the document. Essentially, this is someone who is forging a letter, but doesn't know whether they want it to be from George Washington or George Whitefield. They don't, it could be, it's George, it's one of the two. It could go either way. At any rate, because the Gospel of Mary talks about, and I think most scholars think that it's Mary Magdalene. Mary Magdalene being the most, you know, beloved of Jesus' disciples, which you can find all kinds of ideas behind that, right? She's the one that Jesus is appearing to after his.
Gerrit You can see why people might try to find that connection, but then it's very quickly taken out of context in an attempt to try to prove text. This non-canonical late forgery, the earliest full version we have of this book is from the fifth century. So 400 years after this event, it's apparently, at least most scholars believe, a Gnostic forgery.
Richard So why is it Gnostic?
Gerrit Well, most Gnostics not only believe that there are multiple different gods, but they also believe that most of them, Gnostic is a very large umbrella term, but many of them at least believe in a kind of docetic view of Jesus, that Jesus didn't actually have a body. They see the body as a prison. They see the body as something wrong. It's very heavily influenced by Greek philosophy. And so would God come to earth and be put into this body that's evil? No. So docetists argued that Jesus never even had a body at all, that he was never actually born because he was never physical, because if he was physical, then he would be corrupt. And so he was all spirit. So what's frustrating is that people will quote from the Gospel of Mary thinking that they are expanding our knowledge of Jesus' relationship with, say, women in the Scriptures, but what they don't realize is they are actually quoting a document that's written by people forging something in Mary's name in order to push their argument.
Gerrit And part of that argument is that Jesus wasn't even born. So we are going to take Mary from being the mother of God to not actually giving birth to Jesus at all, essentially being the caretaker because Jesus couldn't be born because Jesus didn't have a physical body. It's an example of where sometimes people will search for truths that speak to them in unorthodox places in order to try to prove a point that they already believe. So rather than seeking for truth in the sense that I'm going to go wherever truth takes me, instead what they are saying is, I want to believe X. Now show me things that say X so that I can believe them. Like your example and your sarcastic, you know...
Richard Well, it's sarcastic unless Jesus actually does come on the 12th of May, 2024.
Gerrit Then we're going to go back and say, actually that calculations are correct, and it is Carbondale, Illinois and not Utah. That what happens is that someone really believes something very strongly, and then that belief causes them to be blind to the other things they're revealed. I mean, I hear people all the time definitively talk about what families and marriage are going to be like in the next life. The church repeatedly says things like, we don't know how things are going to work out in the next life. But there sure are a lot of people who do know, and what do they mean by they know? Well, this is what I want to have happen. Okay, well, that's not how doctrine is revealed. You know, Abraham didn't want to be told to sacrifice Isaac. Whether you want it or not actually has no bearing on what the will and mind of God is. So I think we see this in a lot of modern attempts to try to answer questions that we want answered.
Gerrit You know, I want to know more about the Second Coming of Jesus. This world is terrible and I want him to come tomorrow. I want to know more about what Jesus taught about women. I want to know more about my Heavenly Mother. I want to know more about these topics. And unfortunately, those topics haven't been fully revealed. A great example of this is many of the early apocryphal gospels. So many of these books that were written, all of them forgeries, right, are focused on this missing time period of Jesus' life. Jesus is born, wise men come, and the next thing you know, he's lost in the temple, right? You have this huge gap. What is Jesus like as a child? Well, some enterprising forgers in the early Christian centuries know that what do people want more than anything? They want to know more about Jesus. How come we don't know anything about Jesus' childhood?
Gerrit All we have is the next thing you know, he's in the temple, you know, know you not that I should be about my father's business. That's it. What about him as a four-year-old or a five-year-old or a six-year-old? What is the son of God like? Well, forger steps in and writes this essentially infancy gospel, is what it's called, in which Jesus is actually a very bad child who has all kinds of power but doesn't have the ability to control it. At one point, he's striking people. He strikes one of his playmates dead for breaking something he was working on. I mean, it doesn't sound like the Jesus that you want to believe in today. But what did it sound like? It sounded like the Jesus that people in the second and third centuries wanted to believe in. So you don't hear a whole lot of people quoting from the infancy gospel of Jesus because it doesn't conform to what they want to think about Jesus today.
Gerrit Where do they quote from? Well, they quote from the apocryphal forged gospels that happen to talk about things that they do want to think about today. So that's always the problem. And look, everyone is subject to bias. Everyone has them. But recognizing what they are is really critical in finding truth. When you find yourself desperately trying to find sources that support the political, social, emotional belief that you have, that's when you need to pump the brakes. Because you're going to find something that supports what you believe. But will that something be a true source? Will it be a forged source? Will it be a source that has a terrible provenance? Will it be a source that historians don't even consider to be a source? Maybe. Because when the ends are more important than the means of getting to that end, then we open ourselves up to deception.
Gerrit We are not prophets. We don't have the ability to interpret prophecy. If this is a real vision from God or if it's not, if it's transcribed correctly or if it's transcribed incorrectly, regardless of the answer to any of those questions, there is one source that you should be paying attention to, and that is the current prophet and leadership of the church. If God wants you to know something about the end times and whether or not we're almost there, to borrow the phrase from Joseph Fielding Smith, you're not going to get it from some obscure thing that someone found on the internet. That's not how God prepares his people for the last days. God prepares his people by having them listen to what a prophet has to say. So I think what's most important is people start to speculate and they start to give their money away, and they start to plan for the end times.
Gerrit I'm not even going to send you to BYU this semester because I know Jesus is coming next week. It's most important to ask yourself the question, am I currently doing everything the prophet of God on earth has asked me to do? If the answer is no, then you really shouldn't even care what some purported vision from 150 years ago might have said because A, you don't know what it said, and B, you certainly don't know what it actually means. You know who could know what it means? The seer that God has on earth. Is he talking about it? No. So if he's not talking about it, then while studying these things can be very interesting, and look, I love history, I love reading things like this, that's not how I should base my response. It reminds me of Brigham Young. I know I've told the story before, but it reminds me of Brigham Young giving a sermon in which he's in Utah and he keeps having people say, when are we going back to Missouri?
Gerrit I want to go back to Missouri. When is God going to reestablish Missouri? And Brigham Young's response to them is, you aren't ready for Missouri. You aren't even following the Word of Wisdom the way that it's been more emphasized. How many of you sisters drank tea before you came to this meeting? How many men were drinking alcohol last night? You keep saying you want to go to Missouri. You're not even doing the things that you've been asked to do right now. Look, I know there's a lot of really wonderful, righteous people who have the same question that every righteous believer has had, and that is, when is Jesus going to come again? There's nothing wrong with having that as an interest. There's nothing wrong. It shows that you absolutely believe that Jesus is the Lord. But when we attempt to mix the current events happening around us in our lives with obscure references to the end times as a way of determining whether or not it's happening and it's happening right now, we can actually be led and deceived by people who are trying to make an argument that is far more political and secular than it is trying to lead people back to the Lord Jesus.
Gerrit The reality is this. We don't know when Jesus is coming. If he comes tomorrow, am I ready? Well, obviously, I'm not. Maybe someone listening is. But frankly, I could be hit by a bus walking out of the studio as I finish this podcast. And that's my Second Coming. I'm now going to Jesus whether I like it or not. Either he's coming here or we're going there. But I think we should focus far more on where we are at spiritually than whether or not we can discern the signs of the times. Because we have a prophet, seer and revelator who is going to do that for us. You don't need to worry about getting a jump start on the trek to Missouri because the prophet is already going to say when it's time to go. You won't have to figure that on your own. You won't have to figure out what the ten horns and Daniel are to figure out when to go to build Zion.
Gerrit Your prophet will tell you when to go build Zion. So these are great questions. Sorry, I mean, it maybe went on a little long. Again, I don't think there's anything wrong with having a question because these questions show that someone really cares. But I do think that it's important that we don't allow the questions that we have to cause us to open ourselves up to be influenced by people who don't really have the answers, but certainly have a lot to say. The answers about the truth of God come from the established channels of the church. So thank you so much for joining us, and hopefully we'll be able to answer some more in the future. Everyone take care.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.

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The country has never been this divided. Do you remember the Civil War? Because it's like a big thing.

GerritBanter

In a 60-word set, 40 of them are different. That's a problem.

GerritInsight

Presently, I discovered that I was in the Ogden Tabernacle sitting on a back seat to avoid being called upon to speak, which I found endearing.

GerritBanter

I am the source.

RichardBanter

Well, this is why I'm here. For this and also anything relating to Japanese rice tariffs.

RichardBanter

Sorry, I get really emotional. Which means that obviously Jesus is coming back in May of 2024.

RichardBanter

When you find yourself desperately trying to find sources that support the political, social, emotional belief that you have, that's when you need to pump the brakes.

GerritInsight

It's most important to ask yourself the question, am I currently doing everything the prophet of God on earth has asked me to do?

GerritInsight

Your prophet will tell you when to go build Zion.

GerritInsight

More from this episode

Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.

Claim check

What critics say, and what the episode found
The country has never been this divided.
The vision of a desolating sickness online is John Taylor's vision, word for word from Wilford Woodruff's journal.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.

Take it to class

Ready to copy into a lesson or a text

Check whether a quoted vision or sermon really says what a website claims; the original journals are online through the Church History Library.

Small word changes, like "something gave me answer" becoming "I heard a voice," can change what a revelation seems to mean.

With enough numbers and places you can "prove" any date for the Second Coming; that's a warning sign, not insight.

Instead of chasing obscure prophecies, ask: am I doing everything the living prophet has already asked me to do? He will say when it's time to build Zion.

Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.

Banter bin

The running jokes, for people who skip ahead
Japanese rice tariffsRichard is here for Second Coming math and anything relating to Japanese rice tariffs; Gerrit promises an eight-parter (24:57).
Richard's Salem calculationSeven Salems, two eclipses, Carbondale and 5.12 add up to the Second Coming in May 2024; "I am the source" (23:09, callback 36:41).
The other CarbondaleCarbondale, Utah, where they have four listeners out of five residents (23:57).
Hiding on the back rowThe vision's speaker sits in the back of the Ogden Tabernacle to avoid being called on, which Gerrit finds endearing (8:56).
Hit by a busIf Gerrit is hit by a bus leaving the studio, that's his second coming (44:29).
No BYU this semesterSkipping tuition because Jesus is coming next week (42:01).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

Your question could be next week’s episode
Questions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
Go deeperWhere to read more.

Go deeper

Deep dives the episode points toward
Pull up Wilford Woodruff's journals in the Church History Library catalog and read the June 1878 vision for yourself (6:26).
Learn how the Bible's canon was pieced together, and what makes a book apocryphal, forged or canonical (28:17).
Read about Gnosticism and docetism to see why the Gospel of Mary says what it does (34:22).
Look for the Brigham Young sermon about Saints asking to return to Missouri (42:01).
SOT Litner · S2E4.