It's like walking up to Richard and saying, hey, I heard that Japanese rice tariffs were really high. Do you know anything about that? And then, just the unfolding of years of tariff research comes crashing down.
Standard of Truth · Season 2 · Episode 45 · 50:42
Mormon Battalion Part 1
By late 1843, months before his murder, Joseph Smith had already decided the Saints would have to leave the United States.
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The question ·
Why did the Latter-day Saints decide to leave the United States, setting the stage for the Mormon Battalion?
Gerrit
Richard and Gerrit step away from listener emails to start a series on the Mormon Battalion, the subject of part of Gerrit's dissertation. This first part lays the groundwork: by late 1843 Joseph had decided the Saints must leave the country, and the Council of Fifty looked at Texas, California and Oregon. Gerrit explains the Treaty of 1818, joint occupation of Oregon, the border with Mexico and why Americans kept pushing west for cheap farmland. He shows how the Saints' gathering made neighbors uneasy, and how after Carthage the violence spread, from burned settlements to Edmund Durfee's murder, while John Taylor said the Saints had no benefit from the laws of the land.
Who comes upJoseph SmithBrigham YoungJohn TaylorHyrum SmithEdmund DurfeeMartin Van BurenDaniel WebsterLord AshburtonHeber C. Kimball
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A throwback episode
Richard says they'll go back to telling Church history stories, starting with the Mormon Battalion.
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196 moments · tap a time to play from thereIntro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast, hosted by historian, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, where we explore the early days of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and gain rare historical insights into how a young farm boy was able to establish a new church and grow it by way of visions, manifestations and miracles.
Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast, hosted by historian, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, where we explore the early days of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and gain rare historical insights into how a young farm boy was able to establish a new church and grow it by way of visions, manifestations and miracles.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. In this week's podcast, we're gonna do a little bit of a throwback. The last several months, we've answered a lot of email questions that have let us down paths that...
Richard Hello, Gerrit. In this week's podcast, we're gonna do a little bit of a throwback. The last several months, we've answered a lot of email questions that have let us down paths that...
Gerrit We never wanted to go down.
Gerrit We never wanted to go down.
Richard But in several episodes ago, or many episodes in the first season specifically, you would talk about specific things from Latter-day Saint history, and that's something that we wanted to talk about today.
Richard But in several episodes ago, or many episodes in the first season specifically, you would talk about specific things from Latter-day Saint history, and that's something that we wanted to talk about today.
Gerrit Yeah. I apologize to everyone who's sent us other emails that we haven't responded to. Maybe, you know, we literally can't get to all of them. And that's also a good cover for... I don't know the answer to that. And then we just skip it and move on to something else. Like, hopefully someone writes another treatise to us about the proper pronunciation of a Missouri accent, and we'll be able to do that.
Gerrit Yeah. I apologize to everyone who's sent us other emails that we haven't responded to. Maybe, you know, we literally can't get to all of them. And that's also a good cover for... I don't know the answer to that. And then we just skip it and move on to something else. Like, hopefully someone writes another treatise to us about the proper pronunciation of a Missouri accent, and we'll be able to do that.
Richard And we'll be able to do that. And we'll be able to do that. And we'll be able to do that.
Richard And we'll be able to do that. And we'll be able to do that. And we'll be able to do that.
Gerrit And we'll be able to do that. And we'll be able to do that. And we'll be able to do that. And we'll be able to do that. The problem is, the people making the request didn't realize.
Gerrit And we'll be able to do that. And we'll be able to do that. And we'll be able to do that. And we'll be able to do that. The problem is, the people making the request didn't realize.
Richard Oh, you don't know what you've done.
Richard Oh, you don't know what you've done.
Gerrit Yeah, exactly. It's like walking up to Richard and saying, hey, I heard that Japanese rice tariffs were really high. Do you know anything about that? And then, just the unfolding of years of tariff research comes crashing down. And we'll be able to do that. That's essentially what happens when you ask me about the calling of the Mormon Battalion.
Gerrit Yeah, exactly. It's like walking up to Richard and saying, hey, I heard that Japanese rice tariffs were really high. Do you know anything about that? And then, just the unfolding of years of tariff research comes crashing down. And we'll be able to do that. That's essentially what happens when you ask me about the calling of the Mormon Battalion.
Richard And the reason is because this was actually the topic of your dissertation.
Richard And the reason is because this was actually the topic of your dissertation.
Gerrit At least part of it, yeah. I mean, it's part of it. You know, as Dr. McInerney would say, it's part of it. And there's kind of a lot there. And so, you know, for those of our listeners who stuck with us through the polyandry, it makes it sound like it was our own scandal, but this is, we're going to this time period that as we talked about with Joseph Smith's presidential run in a previous podcast that we have an indexed or, I think we have a title though, you can go find it. The Latter-day Saints, when it comes to the time of Joseph Smith, the end of his life, we are looking for a place to leave the United States. In fact, I published an article in a collection of articles about American expansionism from the University Press of Kansas in which the whole point of the article is the Latter-day Saints' desperate attempts to get outside of the boundaries of the United States.
Gerrit At least part of it, yeah. I mean, it's part of it. You know, as Dr. McInerney would say, it's part of it. And there's kind of a lot there. And so, you know, for those of our listeners who stuck with us through the polyandry, it makes it sound like it was our own scandal, but this is, we're going to this time period that as we talked about with Joseph Smith's presidential run in a previous podcast that we have an indexed or, I think we have a title though, you can go find it. The Latter-day Saints, when it comes to the time of Joseph Smith, the end of his life, we are looking for a place to leave the United States. In fact, I published an article in a collection of articles about American expansionism from the University Press of Kansas in which the whole point of the article is the Latter-day Saints' desperate attempts to get outside of the boundaries of the United States.
Gerrit That book is called Inventing Destiny, Cultural Explorations of US. Expansion. And my article in that book is Safely Beyond the Limits of the United States, the Mormon Expulsion and US. Expansion. So one thing that we rarely talk about, I think Richard's eyes are already glazing over, do I need to mention a treaty or something?
Gerrit That book is called Inventing Destiny, Cultural Explorations of US. Expansion. And my article in that book is Safely Beyond the Limits of the United States, the Mormon Expulsion and US. Expansion. So one thing that we rarely talk about, I think Richard's eyes are already glazing over, do I need to mention a treaty or something?
Richard Yeah, that'll bring me back.
Richard Yeah, that'll bring me back.
Gerrit Eventually, at the end of this, we're going to talk about the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.
Gerrit Eventually, at the end of this, we're going to talk about the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.
Richard Well, we'll get to it.
Richard Well, we'll get to it.
Gerrit Well, probably not. But that's in the future.
Gerrit Well, probably not. But that's in the future.
Richard That's your tease.
Richard That's your tease.
Gerrit Yeah. Yeah. I want everyone to know that at some point we'll get to that treaty. So, it's important that you look at the Latter-day Saints leaving the United States from the lens of what's going on inside the rest of the United States. It's very easy to think of the United States as always being the United States. And if you could recollect back to your 10th grade history that you remember the various ways the United States expanded. And Latter-day Saints are trying to leave the United States at the precise time that the United States is going to wildly expand, just right after the Latter-day Saints leave. We don't often think about it like, oh, the church moved to Utah. Well, the church moved to Mexico. When they got here, it was Mexico. And it was Mexico still for another year before the ending of the war.
Gerrit Yeah. Yeah. I want everyone to know that at some point we'll get to that treaty. So, it's important that you look at the Latter-day Saints leaving the United States from the lens of what's going on inside the rest of the United States. It's very easy to think of the United States as always being the United States. And if you could recollect back to your 10th grade history that you remember the various ways the United States expanded. And Latter-day Saints are trying to leave the United States at the precise time that the United States is going to wildly expand, just right after the Latter-day Saints leave. We don't often think about it like, oh, the church moved to Utah. Well, the church moved to Mexico. When they got here, it was Mexico. And it was Mexico still for another year before the ending of the war.
Gerrit And the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo brought all of that territory back into the United States. And so we often don't think about the fact that the Latter-day Saints deliberately left the country, but they did. And in fact, as we pointed out before, they're so deliberate about it that while they are very seriously contemplating moving to Texas, they dropped that as a plan the moment Texas gets annexed to the United States.
Gerrit And the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo brought all of that territory back into the United States. And so we often don't think about the fact that the Latter-day Saints deliberately left the country, but they did. And in fact, as we pointed out before, they're so deliberate about it that while they are very seriously contemplating moving to Texas, they dropped that as a plan the moment Texas gets annexed to the United States.
Richard I don't remember if we mentioned this in a previous podcast, but Gerrit came and spoke to our ward for Pioneer Day and-
Richard I don't remember if we mentioned this in a previous podcast, but Gerrit came and spoke to our ward for Pioneer Day and-
Gerrit Which was, I mean, what an epic fail.
Gerrit Which was, I mean, what an epic fail.
Richard Well, when you came to speak, it was funny because he was the only speaker, as you could imagine, you'd be able to feel the expanse of time and space and-
Richard Well, when you came to speak, it was funny because he was the only speaker, as you could imagine, you'd be able to feel the expanse of time and space and-
Gerrit Was that a subtle dig on, yeah, no, that wasn't even subtle.
Gerrit Was that a subtle dig on, yeah, no, that wasn't even subtle.
Richard No, that's not a lot. Well, no, so Gerrit was obviously able to speak about Pioneer Day for 30 straight minutes, but we actually still did have a rest him and we did the rest him before he spoke. So sacrament, rest him, then rest him.
Richard No, that's not a lot. Well, no, so Gerrit was obviously able to speak about Pioneer Day for 30 straight minutes, but we actually still did have a rest him and we did the rest him before he spoke. So sacrament, rest him, then rest him.
Gerrit Yeah, then me, which I thought was, I mean, talk about a clever way to keep people excited.
Gerrit Yeah, then me, which I thought was, I mean, talk about a clever way to keep people excited.
Richard I mean, yeah, we're like, look, we know that we got to get him going here.
Richard I mean, yeah, we're like, look, we know that we got to get him going here.
Gerrit This is going to be bad. You guys just announcing his name on the program is enough that everyone glazed over. You know what? Let's have a rest him.
Gerrit This is going to be bad. You guys just announcing his name on the program is enough that everyone glazed over. You know what? Let's have a rest him.
Richard Well, but so, but we had joked about, so I don't know, in many neighborhoods, it's a tradition to put flags out on major holidays. And we had joked that it was funny to put the American flag out on Pioneer Day, when in reality, we should put a Mexican flag out on Pioneer Day, which would likely not be received very well.
Richard Well, but so, but we had joked about, so I don't know, in many neighborhoods, it's a tradition to put flags out on major holidays. And we had joked that it was funny to put the American flag out on Pioneer Day, when in reality, we should put a Mexican flag out on Pioneer Day, which would likely not be received very well.
Gerrit It won't be received as well, or at least the flag of the kingdom that they created, that they flew on Ensign Peak because they were trying to create their own nation at the time. But the reality of the situation is Latter-day Saints are so frustrated that even before Joseph Smith is murdered, by late 1843, Joseph has already made the decision, we are going to have to leave this country. And so they begin all kinds of exploration. Joseph starts the Council of 50, whose purpose it is to try to find where the church is going to move, and then also to create that government and that new place they are going to go. They look at various places. They look at Texas, which is an independent republic at the time. Texas is annexed while they are looking at leaving the country, and so they stop thinking about Texas, but they are very seriously considering that.
Gerrit It won't be received as well, or at least the flag of the kingdom that they created, that they flew on Ensign Peak because they were trying to create their own nation at the time. But the reality of the situation is Latter-day Saints are so frustrated that even before Joseph Smith is murdered, by late 1843, Joseph has already made the decision, we are going to have to leave this country. And so they begin all kinds of exploration. Joseph starts the Council of 50, whose purpose it is to try to find where the church is going to move, and then also to create that government and that new place they are going to go. They look at various places. They look at Texas, which is an independent republic at the time. Texas is annexed while they are looking at leaving the country, and so they stop thinking about Texas, but they are very seriously considering that.
Gerrit They look at Oregon Territory. Now Oregon Territory is going to factor prominently in our discussion about the calling of the Mormon Battalion. Because Oregon Territory, I think most of us have, we got our chops on Oregon Territory by playing Oregon Trail as kids. You just died of dysentery. But Oregon is actually, it's half of, it's much of Idaho, all of Washington, all of present-day Oregon, and then that territory is actually most of what is today British Columbia in Canada. All of that area is called the Oregon Territory. So when we say Oregon, we're not talking about Portland, we're talking about all of it. It's all of that area. And it is a disputed area. It is jointly occupied by both the United States and Great Britain.
Gerrit They look at Oregon Territory. Now Oregon Territory is going to factor prominently in our discussion about the calling of the Mormon Battalion. Because Oregon Territory, I think most of us have, we got our chops on Oregon Territory by playing Oregon Trail as kids. You just died of dysentery. But Oregon is actually, it's half of, it's much of Idaho, all of Washington, all of present-day Oregon, and then that territory is actually most of what is today British Columbia in Canada. All of that area is called the Oregon Territory. So when we say Oregon, we're not talking about Portland, we're talking about all of it. It's all of that area. And it is a disputed area. It is jointly occupied by both the United States and Great Britain.
Gerrit Now while it's jointly occupied, and while you might have played the game Oregon Trail a lot on your way to Oregon, by the 1840s, there are not very many people, very many white settlers anyway, living in Oregon Territory. Look, eventually, many more will move there. But in all of what is British Columbia, Washington, Oregon and Idaho, which was all part of Oregon Country, Oregon Territory, there's roughly 5,000 whites that are living in all of that entire area. So it is not heavily populated. What it is, is it's heavily trapped. There's a lot of beaver and other small animals that are used to make beaver felt hats that you can then put a seer stone on the bottom of and translate a Book of Mormon with. I mean, it's the fashion of the day, honestly, the beaver hats. And there's a reason why Oregon State's mascot is a beaver because there were a lot there.
Gerrit Now while it's jointly occupied, and while you might have played the game Oregon Trail a lot on your way to Oregon, by the 1840s, there are not very many people, very many white settlers anyway, living in Oregon Territory. Look, eventually, many more will move there. But in all of what is British Columbia, Washington, Oregon and Idaho, which was all part of Oregon Country, Oregon Territory, there's roughly 5,000 whites that are living in all of that entire area. So it is not heavily populated. What it is, is it's heavily trapped. There's a lot of beaver and other small animals that are used to make beaver felt hats that you can then put a seer stone on the bottom of and translate a Book of Mormon with. I mean, it's the fashion of the day, honestly, the beaver hats. And there's a reason why Oregon State's mascot is a beaver because there were a lot there.
Gerrit Not so many anymore because of all the trapping that took place. So early on, there were clashes between American and British fur traders and American and British fur trading companies, but there weren't a ton of permanent long-term settlements that were there. The United States and Great Britain create a Joint Occupation Treaty that's part of what comes out of their 1818 Treaty. Now, I wish this treaty, the Treaty of 1818, had a really cool name, and it was easy to remember. I mean, 1818.
Gerrit Not so many anymore because of all the trapping that took place. So early on, there were clashes between American and British fur traders and American and British fur trading companies, but there weren't a ton of permanent long-term settlements that were there. The United States and Great Britain create a Joint Occupation Treaty that's part of what comes out of their 1818 Treaty. Now, I wish this treaty, the Treaty of 1818, had a really cool name, and it was easy to remember. I mean, 1818.
Richard Well, it is easy to remember. It's kind of my bite combination. Yeah, that's right.
Richard Well, it is easy to remember. It's kind of my bite combination. Yeah, that's right.
Gerrit Yeah. I just make all the numbers the same. No one will ever think to guess that. And what it did is it said, well, we're going to put off the decision about who controls this territory until a later time. And so this massive, massive area, and again, it's British Columbia, it's Washington, it's Oregon, it's Idaho, that whole area is all occupied and administered both by Great Britain and by the United States. In practical terms, there were rarely very many conflicts, because there were very few people who were there. And on the ground, you know, most justice was kind of frontier justice, because neither side was really, was going to put troops into this jointly occupied territory. So it's a question that's on the back burner.
Gerrit Yeah. I just make all the numbers the same. No one will ever think to guess that. And what it did is it said, well, we're going to put off the decision about who controls this territory until a later time. And so this massive, massive area, and again, it's British Columbia, it's Washington, it's Oregon, it's Idaho, that whole area is all occupied and administered both by Great Britain and by the United States. In practical terms, there were rarely very many conflicts, because there were very few people who were there. And on the ground, you know, most justice was kind of frontier justice, because neither side was really, was going to put troops into this jointly occupied territory. So it's a question that's on the back burner.
Gerrit But as the Saints are preparing to leave the United States, it's a question that has gotten very, very, very hot. And part of the reason why is politics. So again, I always have to put out the disclaimer. The 19th century world is a world in which political differences were very, very acerbic. They were very angry, they were very divided. And so it's a different world than ours, where people, you know, they're like, oh, you have this idea, I have this one. You know what? Let's agree to disagree. And they walk their own separate way. In the 19th century, people with political differences often used over-the-top rhetoric, condemning people in every possible way for believing the opposite thing. So you'll have to just imagine a world where that takes place. But it happened back then. And as the time to re-up this treaty with Great Britain approached, there is considerable pressure, especially among the expansionist Democrats, that we aren't okay with just re-upping the status quo as it is.
Gerrit But as the Saints are preparing to leave the United States, it's a question that has gotten very, very, very hot. And part of the reason why is politics. So again, I always have to put out the disclaimer. The 19th century world is a world in which political differences were very, very acerbic. They were very angry, they were very divided. And so it's a different world than ours, where people, you know, they're like, oh, you have this idea, I have this one. You know what? Let's agree to disagree. And they walk their own separate way. In the 19th century, people with political differences often used over-the-top rhetoric, condemning people in every possible way for believing the opposite thing. So you'll have to just imagine a world where that takes place. But it happened back then. And as the time to re-up this treaty with Great Britain approached, there is considerable pressure, especially among the expansionist Democrats, that we aren't okay with just re-upping the status quo as it is.
Gerrit There's more and more settlers moving to Oregon. Look, in 1818, there's like four people and the Native American tribes that lived and owned the land living there. There's almost no one there. And so you don't want to fight a war over like four people, right? But by 1840s, there's, like I said, around 5,000 British and American settlers scattered throughout the area. The 1818 Treaty had also established the northern borderline of the United States between Canada, which was Great Britain, part of the British colonies, and the United States. So if you've ever wondered why that line is so straight, all the way through North Dakota and Montana, it's a pretty straight line. That's because they established this 49th parallel as where we'll make the dividing line.
Gerrit There's more and more settlers moving to Oregon. Look, in 1818, there's like four people and the Native American tribes that lived and owned the land living there. There's almost no one there. And so you don't want to fight a war over like four people, right? But by 1840s, there's, like I said, around 5,000 British and American settlers scattered throughout the area. The 1818 Treaty had also established the northern borderline of the United States between Canada, which was Great Britain, part of the British colonies, and the United States. So if you've ever wondered why that line is so straight, all the way through North Dakota and Montana, it's a pretty straight line. That's because they established this 49th parallel as where we'll make the dividing line.
Gerrit Now again, in 1818, they are making a dividing line on the basis of essentially no settlements. I mean, how many settlements are even on the border today in North Dakota?
Gerrit Now again, in 1818, they are making a dividing line on the basis of essentially no settlements. I mean, how many settlements are even on the border today in North Dakota?
Richard I can't imagine that there are very many.
Richard I can't imagine that there are very many.
Gerrit I mean, how many settlements are there in North Dakota?
Gerrit I mean, how many settlements are there in North Dakota?
Richard Yeah, I think Bismarck is the only one.
Richard Yeah, I think Bismarck is the only one.
Gerrit I mean, that's a shout out to Jed, because he's listening, and he got other people to listen, although they've probably stopped listening, because we just criticized North Dakota.
Gerrit I mean, that's a shout out to Jed, because he's listening, and he got other people to listen, although they've probably stopped listening, because we just criticized North Dakota.
Richard Yeah, we apologize. North Dakota is full of a lot of people densely populated.
Richard Yeah, we apologize. North Dakota is full of a lot of people densely populated.
Gerrit Yeah, very densely populated, and everyone who lives there knows that it is. But that line is a straight line. I mean, it's one of the easier parts, if you're drawing as a kid a map of the United States, one of the easier parts to draw is that upper border of the United States, because it's just like... except for one place. One place that we're going to have to move forward to another treaty. So there were actually some disputes between the United States and Great Britain entering into the 1840s, and a lot of these had to do with these places that weren't heavily settled, but as more settlement came to them, there now is a dispute about where is that boundary line. I mean, look, we've got satellites and geopolitical, you know, geographical locators. They don't. They have a dude who goes out with like a survey, you know, like a little tripod, and he's like, okay, and I think this is it.
Gerrit Yeah, very densely populated, and everyone who lives there knows that it is. But that line is a straight line. I mean, it's one of the easier parts, if you're drawing as a kid a map of the United States, one of the easier parts to draw is that upper border of the United States, because it's just like... except for one place. One place that we're going to have to move forward to another treaty. So there were actually some disputes between the United States and Great Britain entering into the 1840s, and a lot of these had to do with these places that weren't heavily settled, but as more settlement came to them, there now is a dispute about where is that boundary line. I mean, look, we've got satellites and geopolitical, you know, geographical locators. They don't. They have a dude who goes out with like a survey, you know, like a little tripod, and he's like, okay, and I think this is it.
Gerrit So it could easily lead to disputes because there's not an easy way to actually mark. I mean, look, anyone who's built a fence in their backyard is well aware. It's not as easy to know where the boundary line is as you think there is, right? That probably hit a little too close to home for some of the listeners.
Gerrit So it could easily lead to disputes because there's not an easy way to actually mark. I mean, look, anyone who's built a fence in their backyard is well aware. It's not as easy to know where the boundary line is as you think there is, right? That probably hit a little too close to home for some of the listeners.
Richard I'm sure, yeah.
Richard I'm sure, yeah.
Gerrit I expect angry emails from people who were forced to tear their fence down and rebuild it because they were six inches over on their neighbor's property line. There's at least one of them. Anyway, the Webster-Ashburton Treaty, there we go. Now, everybody wants that. We're going to work Webster-Ashburton into the rotation.
Gerrit I expect angry emails from people who were forced to tear their fence down and rebuild it because they were six inches over on their neighbor's property line. There's at least one of them. Anyway, the Webster-Ashburton Treaty, there we go. Now, everybody wants that. We're going to work Webster-Ashburton into the rotation.
Richard Much better than the Treaty of 1818.
Richard Much better than the Treaty of 1818.
Gerrit Yeah, the Treaty of 1818. I mean, it's like they weren't even trying. I mean, it's a much more important treaty because it sets, I don't know, 3,000 miles of border between the United States and Canada, which is still the border today. But Wisconsin territory, which I have a great affinity for because I serve my mission to Wisconsin, Wisconsin territory in the 1840s included what is today Minnesota. And don't worry, Minnesota, eventually, do we have any listeners in Minnesota?
Gerrit Yeah, the Treaty of 1818. I mean, it's like they weren't even trying. I mean, it's a much more important treaty because it sets, I don't know, 3,000 miles of border between the United States and Canada, which is still the border today. But Wisconsin territory, which I have a great affinity for because I serve my mission to Wisconsin, Wisconsin territory in the 1840s included what is today Minnesota. And don't worry, Minnesota, eventually, do we have any listeners in Minnesota?
Richard We do not.
Richard We do not.
Gerrit Okay.
Richard Well, we do have Doug and Emily and they've been to Minnesota.
Gerrit Okay.
Richard Well, we do have Doug and Emily and they've been to Minnesota.
Gerrit Her family's from Minnesota, right?
Gerrit Her family's from Minnesota, right?
Richard Her family's from Minnesota, so they've stayed there.
Richard Her family's from Minnesota, so they've stayed there.
Gerrit She's a member of the church?
Gerrit She's a member of the church?
Richard At the time of this episode, yes.
Richard At the time of this episode, yes.
Gerrit But after she listens to this episode...
Gerrit But after she listens to this episode...
Richard Likely, no.
Gerrit Likely, not. Okay. I'm pretty sure they don't listen to the episodes. We've actually got more time. I don't think that they're listeners. So, as more and more people begin to settle in Wisconsin territory, but read Minnesota when I say that, eventually Minnesota will become its own territory, so don't worry about it. You will get your own territory, but right now it's part of Wisconsin territory. I'm sure there's a whole bunch of Gopher fans who are very angry about that. We are not part of Wisconsin. Well, for a while you were. Anyway, there's a dispute about where that boundary line actually is, because you start going through some thick woods and you run into a bunch of Great Lakes. So how do we draw the boundary line across the Great Lakes? 1818 had tried to do it, but in doing so was kind of cutting through some settlements already. Same thing in Maine. In Maine, they had never fully demarcated the difference between Canada and Maine.
Richard Likely, no.
Gerrit Likely, not. Okay. I'm pretty sure they don't listen to the episodes. We've actually got more time. I don't think that they're listeners. So, as more and more people begin to settle in Wisconsin territory, but read Minnesota when I say that, eventually Minnesota will become its own territory, so don't worry about it. You will get your own territory, but right now it's part of Wisconsin territory. I'm sure there's a whole bunch of Gopher fans who are very angry about that. We are not part of Wisconsin. Well, for a while you were. Anyway, there's a dispute about where that boundary line actually is, because you start going through some thick woods and you run into a bunch of Great Lakes. So how do we draw the boundary line across the Great Lakes? 1818 had tried to do it, but in doing so was kind of cutting through some settlements already. Same thing in Maine. In Maine, they had never fully demarcated the difference between Canada and Maine.
Gerrit So the Webster-Ashburton Treaty, Lord Ashburton comes to the United States and meets with Daniel Webster of dictionary fame, but actually he was an amazingly powerful and popular politician, more than just a dictionary. He was Secretary of State, as well as Senator from Massachusetts. And in this discussion, they kind of redraw the lines. One of the fun parts is if you're ever looking, go get a map of the United States. Go get your globe that everyone has in their home now. We had a globe growing up. Did you have a globe? Yeah, it was a nice globe. We would play with it so much, spin the world. I thought it helped. It helped us have really good geography. Speaking of which, this last week, I had a terrible disappointment in my life. I love geography because I love history. I love knowing where places are, where people live, things like that.
Gerrit So the Webster-Ashburton Treaty, Lord Ashburton comes to the United States and meets with Daniel Webster of dictionary fame, but actually he was an amazingly powerful and popular politician, more than just a dictionary. He was Secretary of State, as well as Senator from Massachusetts. And in this discussion, they kind of redraw the lines. One of the fun parts is if you're ever looking, go get a map of the United States. Go get your globe that everyone has in their home now. We had a globe growing up. Did you have a globe? Yeah, it was a nice globe. We would play with it so much, spin the world. I thought it helped. It helped us have really good geography. Speaking of which, this last week, I had a terrible disappointment in my life. I love geography because I love history. I love knowing where places are, where people live, things like that.
Gerrit So I always loved geography in school. We started looking at one of my son's grades in his geography class, and they're terrible. I mean, my son, how are you doing so bad? You just took a test on geography, and you got a nine out of 25? Do you not even know what country you live in? I mean, you should get like three of those just by the fact that you live in one of the countries. And it was one of those cases where the child provided an excuse that as a parent, I immediately rejected and offered no credibility whatsoever. He was like, Dad, I don't know what's going on. I know I'm getting these answers right on these quizzes. I know the answers. I'm like, son, you got a 50% on this one, you got a 30% on this one. You don't know the answers actually. Whatever you think you know, you don't. So he went in to go meet with his geography teacher.
Gerrit So I always loved geography in school. We started looking at one of my son's grades in his geography class, and they're terrible. I mean, my son, how are you doing so bad? You just took a test on geography, and you got a nine out of 25? Do you not even know what country you live in? I mean, you should get like three of those just by the fact that you live in one of the countries. And it was one of those cases where the child provided an excuse that as a parent, I immediately rejected and offered no credibility whatsoever. He was like, Dad, I don't know what's going on. I know I'm getting these answers right on these quizzes. I know the answers. I'm like, son, you got a 50% on this one, you got a 30% on this one. You don't know the answers actually. Whatever you think you know, you don't. So he went in to go meet with his geography teacher.
Gerrit And in fact, someone had joined the class late with a very similar starting last name to my son. So he was right next to my son in the grade book. And the teacher had been entering this other student's grades into my son's grades. So I blew him up. I told him that his excuse was a terrible excuse, and I was totally wrong. Someday when he listens to this, probably long after I'm dead, he'll realize, you know what, I'm sorry about that. But I'm not going to tell him sorry now because that'll just get him all, you know.
Gerrit And in fact, someone had joined the class late with a very similar starting last name to my son. So he was right next to my son in the grade book. And the teacher had been entering this other student's grades into my son's grades. So I blew him up. I told him that his excuse was a terrible excuse, and I was totally wrong. Someday when he listens to this, probably long after I'm dead, he'll realize, you know what, I'm sorry about that. But I'm not going to tell him sorry now because that'll just get him all, you know.
Richard Yeah, you don't want him to think that you're...
Richard Yeah, you don't want him to think that you're...
Gerrit Yeah, I don't want him to think that I love him. And obviously I already have. But there's actually a little, when you look at the map, there's this little teeny part of Minnesota called the North Angle that is not in any way touching the rest of Minnesota. It's kind of like the Upper Peninsula of Michigan isn't touching the rest of Michigan, only this is legitimately in Canada. You have to drive through Canada to get to this Northwest Angle that was part of the settlement of the Webster-Ashburton Treaty that America has this little enclave there in Canada. To our Canadian listeners, you've probably been thinking, we're going to Putin this pretty quick. Our plan is to annex this and to take it back and to claim that this has always been part of Canada. So it's important that, you know, that whole discussion is A, so that those of you who are only lingering on the edge of sleep can blissfully pass through it, but also to understand that the Latter-day Saints are leaving the United States at a very volatile time for not only the country politically, as we do the run-up to the American Civil War, but to the country internationally with its interaction with both Mexico and with Great Britain.
Gerrit Yeah, I don't want him to think that I love him. And obviously I already have. But there's actually a little, when you look at the map, there's this little teeny part of Minnesota called the North Angle that is not in any way touching the rest of Minnesota. It's kind of like the Upper Peninsula of Michigan isn't touching the rest of Michigan, only this is legitimately in Canada. You have to drive through Canada to get to this Northwest Angle that was part of the settlement of the Webster-Ashburton Treaty that America has this little enclave there in Canada. To our Canadian listeners, you've probably been thinking, we're going to Putin this pretty quick. Our plan is to annex this and to take it back and to claim that this has always been part of Canada. So it's important that, you know, that whole discussion is A, so that those of you who are only lingering on the edge of sleep can blissfully pass through it, but also to understand that the Latter-day Saints are leaving the United States at a very volatile time for not only the country politically, as we do the run-up to the American Civil War, but to the country internationally with its interaction with both Mexico and with Great Britain.
Gerrit There are active border disputes that are going on at the time. And you're thinking, well, why does that matter? Why do I care? Well, because it's going to affect everything that happens next. Of course, the other place they consider going to is to Mexico. The various places, they at one point talk about settling on the Sea of Cortez, which would be great. They talk about settling in San Diego. And as I've expressed multiple times, man, I could be working at BYU San Diego right now.
Gerrit There are active border disputes that are going on at the time. And you're thinking, well, why does that matter? Why do I care? Well, because it's going to affect everything that happens next. Of course, the other place they consider going to is to Mexico. The various places, they at one point talk about settling on the Sea of Cortez, which would be great. They talk about settling in San Diego. And as I've expressed multiple times, man, I could be working at BYU San Diego right now.
Richard Well, but your point was that they wanted to go to a place that people wouldn't go.
Richard Well, but your point was that they wanted to go to a place that people wouldn't go.
Gerrit I know. That's the problem. They were going to go to somewhere where no one else lived. And again, with the Latter-day Saint plans to possibly go to what was then called California. And California then included all of modern day California, but also Arizona, half of New Mexico, all of Nevada, all of Utah, part of Colorado, that was all called Upper California. So when they talk about California, when they say, oh, we're going to California, they might mean, you know, Parham, Nevada. They might mean that. They might mean Tonopah. But, you know, it's not exactly San Diego. Do we have a listener in Tonopah? We do not.
Gerrit I know. That's the problem. They were going to go to somewhere where no one else lived. And again, with the Latter-day Saint plans to possibly go to what was then called California. And California then included all of modern day California, but also Arizona, half of New Mexico, all of Nevada, all of Utah, part of Colorado, that was all called Upper California. So when they talk about California, when they say, oh, we're going to California, they might mean, you know, Parham, Nevada. They might mean that. They might mean Tonopah. But, you know, it's not exactly San Diego. Do we have a listener in Tonopah? We do not.
Richard Well, I was not expecting... We do not.
Richard Well, I was not expecting... We do not.
Gerrit We don't.
Gerrit We don't.
Richard Hold on, let me... Yep, just checked, we don't.
Richard Hold on, let me... Yep, just checked, we don't.
Gerrit Look, if you are a listener in either Tonopah or Tehachapi, we need you to let us know, first of all, that you have internet, and second of all, that you listen to this show. But again, in all of that area, the only place of these upper states of Mexico that were highly populated by non-Native Americans is actually just New Mexico itself. And even New Mexico is almost entirely Native American. It's just a Mestizo population that's intermarried with first Spanish and then Mexicans. But there are tens of thousands of those Mexican residents in places like Santa Fe and Las Cruces and Albuquerque. But in Arizona, I mean, Tucson exists, but there's like a hundred people who live in it.
Gerrit Look, if you are a listener in either Tonopah or Tehachapi, we need you to let us know, first of all, that you have internet, and second of all, that you listen to this show. But again, in all of that area, the only place of these upper states of Mexico that were highly populated by non-Native Americans is actually just New Mexico itself. And even New Mexico is almost entirely Native American. It's just a Mestizo population that's intermarried with first Spanish and then Mexicans. But there are tens of thousands of those Mexican residents in places like Santa Fe and Las Cruces and Albuquerque. But in Arizona, I mean, Tucson exists, but there's like a hundred people who live in it.
Gerrit And I'm assuming that all of them wish they didn't, because air conditioning did not exist. I have a hard time going to Tucson with air conditioning because it's so hot, right? I mean, Phoenix, obviously, are there like little teeny settlements? Sure. But the city, of course, doesn't exist at all. Arizona has almost no one living in that. The largest settlement in all of Mexican California, that entire geographical area that I'm talking about, not surprisingly was Los Angeles, right? Los Angeles, this massive city, sprawling highways. Well, in 1845, it had a grand total of 1200 people living in it.
Gerrit And I'm assuming that all of them wish they didn't, because air conditioning did not exist. I have a hard time going to Tucson with air conditioning because it's so hot, right? I mean, Phoenix, obviously, are there like little teeny settlements? Sure. But the city, of course, doesn't exist at all. Arizona has almost no one living in that. The largest settlement in all of Mexican California, that entire geographical area that I'm talking about, not surprisingly was Los Angeles, right? Los Angeles, this massive city, sprawling highways. Well, in 1845, it had a grand total of 1200 people living in it.
Richard The North Dakota of California.
Richard The North Dakota of California.
Gerrit Well, and that's the reality is these parts of Mexico were so geographically isolated from the much more heavily populated central Mexico, Mexico City, and then further south in Mexico, that development up there was just really, really, really slow. It's hard to envision this because in our minds, what we think is, well, no, California is like loaded with people and everybody wants to live there. But the estimates are in all of California, Utah, half of Colorado, Nevada, Arizona, and part of New Mexico today, in all of that area, there are fewer than 7,000 Mexicans or American settlers living in that entire area. Now, again, there are hundreds of thousands of Native Americans, but neither the Mexicans nor the Americans are counting them. So it's not that the place is completely uninhabited.
Gerrit Well, and that's the reality is these parts of Mexico were so geographically isolated from the much more heavily populated central Mexico, Mexico City, and then further south in Mexico, that development up there was just really, really, really slow. It's hard to envision this because in our minds, what we think is, well, no, California is like loaded with people and everybody wants to live there. But the estimates are in all of California, Utah, half of Colorado, Nevada, Arizona, and part of New Mexico today, in all of that area, there are fewer than 7,000 Mexicans or American settlers living in that entire area. Now, again, there are hundreds of thousands of Native Americans, but neither the Mexicans nor the Americans are counting them. So it's not that the place is completely uninhabited.
Gerrit It's the fact that Mexican imperialism and American imperialism both follow the same track, and that is, oh, we don't count the Native Americans living there. And so the reality is, as Latter-day Saints are looking for places to go, there's the Oregon Territory, which has fewer than 5,000 white settlers. There's this vast northern state of upper California of Mexico, which has fewer than 7,000 settlers. There are 20 to 25,000 Latter-day Saints living in and around Nauvoo alone, and thousands more that are converted in places in England and branches all over the country. Literally, anywhere the Latter-day Saints go, they are going to not just dwarf the existing population, they are going to double and triple and quadruple it, and they would be all together in a single settlement.
Gerrit It's the fact that Mexican imperialism and American imperialism both follow the same track, and that is, oh, we don't count the Native Americans living there. And so the reality is, as Latter-day Saints are looking for places to go, there's the Oregon Territory, which has fewer than 5,000 white settlers. There's this vast northern state of upper California of Mexico, which has fewer than 7,000 settlers. There are 20 to 25,000 Latter-day Saints living in and around Nauvoo alone, and thousands more that are converted in places in England and branches all over the country. Literally, anywhere the Latter-day Saints go, they are going to not just dwarf the existing population, they are going to double and triple and quadruple it, and they would be all together in a single settlement.
Gerrit So that's something that's very important. I said in a very early podcast, one that you probably didn't listen to, or if you did listen to, you aren't listening to this one, because you gave up after you listened to that one. That the gathering of the Latter-day Saints is something that is both a blessing and a curse for the Latter-day Saints in their history. The very fact that the Saints gather together provides them all kinds of social and religious support that they wouldn't have otherwise. But the very fact that they gather together makes them a threat. If I live in Illinois, Latter-day Saints do not make up a huge percentage of the population of Illinois in 1840. It's tough to be precise because Illinois is the promised land. It is where people are moving in the 1830s and 1840s.
Gerrit So that's something that's very important. I said in a very early podcast, one that you probably didn't listen to, or if you did listen to, you aren't listening to this one, because you gave up after you listened to that one. That the gathering of the Latter-day Saints is something that is both a blessing and a curse for the Latter-day Saints in their history. The very fact that the Saints gather together provides them all kinds of social and religious support that they wouldn't have otherwise. But the very fact that they gather together makes them a threat. If I live in Illinois, Latter-day Saints do not make up a huge percentage of the population of Illinois in 1840. It's tough to be precise because Illinois is the promised land. It is where people are moving in the 1830s and 1840s.
Gerrit So why are they moving there? I don't know if you've ever driven through Illinois. Mostly when you think of Illinois, you think of Chicago. If you've ever driven from Nauvoo to Chicago, what did you see?
Gerrit So why are they moving there? I don't know if you've ever driven through Illinois. Mostly when you think of Illinois, you think of Chicago. If you've ever driven from Nauvoo to Chicago, what did you see?
Richard North Dakota.
Richard North Dakota.
Gerrit Again, a call out to Jed. No, but what you saw was farms. Illinois is incredibly agrarian. Everywhere outside of Chicago. Well, it's very good farmland. It receives enough rainfall that the crops grow really well, has a long enough growing. So it's kind of like a bread basket of sorts for the nation. And on top of that, on one side, it's bounded by the Mississippi River. So you have to look at early American settlement patterns in terms of where is the highway system. Well, there isn't a highway system. The highways of early America are the rivers, the lakes and the ocean. And the reason why is, look, okay, so I have 50 acres of corn.
Gerrit Again, a call out to Jed. No, but what you saw was farms. Illinois is incredibly agrarian. Everywhere outside of Chicago. Well, it's very good farmland. It receives enough rainfall that the crops grow really well, has a long enough growing. So it's kind of like a bread basket of sorts for the nation. And on top of that, on one side, it's bounded by the Mississippi River. So you have to look at early American settlement patterns in terms of where is the highway system. Well, there isn't a highway system. The highways of early America are the rivers, the lakes and the ocean. And the reason why is, look, okay, so I have 50 acres of corn.
Gerrit Well, I live, if I have a 50 acre farm, I'm probably a mile away from my closest neighbor, who guess what, is also growing corn. And my neighbor to the south of me a mile away is also growing corn. Literally everyone's growing corn. So what am I going to do? Do you know how much corn 50 acres of corn is? Even with their, you know, this is the Idaho farmer in me, even with their poor crop rotational practices that they didn't understand. You know, I mean, the reality is, how many wagon loads? This is before railroads are in the area. The only way you can get bushels and bushels and bushels of corn to any market, because I mean, like, you can't, you can set up a corn stand on the side of the highway all you want, but your neighbor, who also has 50 acres of corn, probably isn't going to buy any from you.
Gerrit Well, I live, if I have a 50 acre farm, I'm probably a mile away from my closest neighbor, who guess what, is also growing corn. And my neighbor to the south of me a mile away is also growing corn. Literally everyone's growing corn. So what am I going to do? Do you know how much corn 50 acres of corn is? Even with their, you know, this is the Idaho farmer in me, even with their poor crop rotational practices that they didn't understand. You know, I mean, the reality is, how many wagon loads? This is before railroads are in the area. The only way you can get bushels and bushels and bushels of corn to any market, because I mean, like, you can't, you can set up a corn stand on the side of the highway all you want, but your neighbor, who also has 50 acres of corn, probably isn't going to buy any from you.
Gerrit So the big issue for farmers in the United States is always the same thing over and over and over again. How do I get my crop to market? That argument actually leads to something we'll talk about when we do some American history podcast, the Whiskey Rebellion in America, is directly tied to this rebellion that happens during Washington's presidency to farmers' desires to try to get their crops to a market. Well, the whole western half of Illinois is bounded by the Mississippi River. On the eastern side, and the southern side as well of Illinois with the river, and on the eastern side, you have the Great Lakes, right? Which allow for even further transport, which becomes an even bigger deal as things like the Erie Canal are opened up, right? As railroads begin to expand as well, all of these things make it just a prime location to go.
Gerrit So the big issue for farmers in the United States is always the same thing over and over and over again. How do I get my crop to market? That argument actually leads to something we'll talk about when we do some American history podcast, the Whiskey Rebellion in America, is directly tied to this rebellion that happens during Washington's presidency to farmers' desires to try to get their crops to a market. Well, the whole western half of Illinois is bounded by the Mississippi River. On the eastern side, and the southern side as well of Illinois with the river, and on the eastern side, you have the Great Lakes, right? Which allow for even further transport, which becomes an even bigger deal as things like the Erie Canal are opened up, right? As railroads begin to expand as well, all of these things make it just a prime location to go.
Gerrit I was reading the letters of a man living in Ohio writing back to his family, not a Latter-day Saint, writing back to his family and telling him of his grand dreams. Like, he's living in Ohio, he has a nice farm, it produces well, and he's writing to his parents and he says, if I can just get to Illinois, in the land, it's cheap, it's super productive, yeah, it's a long ways away, but I can get three or four times the size of property that I can get here in Ohio. And so that westward expansion is always, I mean, anyone who's been in the market for a house lately is well aware, you know, location, location, location, right? The reality is the exact same size house in San Francisco and in Tonopah are not going to be the same price because location matters.
Gerrit I was reading the letters of a man living in Ohio writing back to his family, not a Latter-day Saint, writing back to his family and telling him of his grand dreams. Like, he's living in Ohio, he has a nice farm, it produces well, and he's writing to his parents and he says, if I can just get to Illinois, in the land, it's cheap, it's super productive, yeah, it's a long ways away, but I can get three or four times the size of property that I can get here in Ohio. And so that westward expansion is always, I mean, anyone who's been in the market for a house lately is well aware, you know, location, location, location, right? The reality is the exact same size house in San Francisco and in Tonopah are not going to be the same price because location matters.
Gerrit And so these newly expanding areas that didn't have the same infrastructure, if you moved west, you moved to Illinois, you get really good farmland, you get it fairly inexpensive, the problem is it's incredibly isolated and there aren't any services. But as more and more people move there, well then that land price is going to go up and up and up and up, and then people are going to start looking even across the river into Iowa territory and beyond. This is really the story of expansion in the United States generally. People continually move west because land is the driver of American both social standing as well as the economy. The United States is an agrarian country at the time. Almost everyone farms. Yes, there are some minor factory stuff in the cities, and yes, there are people who fish, and you can send me angry emails about your grandfather who was a rope maker in Salem, but did he have something to do with the witch trials?
Gerrit And so these newly expanding areas that didn't have the same infrastructure, if you moved west, you moved to Illinois, you get really good farmland, you get it fairly inexpensive, the problem is it's incredibly isolated and there aren't any services. But as more and more people move there, well then that land price is going to go up and up and up and up, and then people are going to start looking even across the river into Iowa territory and beyond. This is really the story of expansion in the United States generally. People continually move west because land is the driver of American both social standing as well as the economy. The United States is an agrarian country at the time. Almost everyone farms. Yes, there are some minor factory stuff in the cities, and yes, there are people who fish, and you can send me angry emails about your grandfather who was a rope maker in Salem, but did he have something to do with the witch trials?
Gerrit See, now I've got questions back for you. But the reality is most Americans get their living in some way through farming. And that land ownership is seen as what is essential to being a real American, to being an independent American. And so if you have to have land, both to make money and to be socially acceptable, well, just like this fellow I was talking about, you can buy a small farm in Ohio that has more of the accoutrements of the East in it, or I can buy a giant farm for the same price in Illinois. And yeah, it's going to be a hard scrabble. I'm going to have to cut down a bunch of trees and have a tough time getting things to work at first. But the long-term payout is so much more production on that land. And so Illinois is just, it's a booming population. But the Latter-day Saints aren't moving to Illinois because the crop land is just so incredible.
Gerrit See, now I've got questions back for you. But the reality is most Americans get their living in some way through farming. And that land ownership is seen as what is essential to being a real American, to being an independent American. And so if you have to have land, both to make money and to be socially acceptable, well, just like this fellow I was talking about, you can buy a small farm in Ohio that has more of the accoutrements of the East in it, or I can buy a giant farm for the same price in Illinois. And yeah, it's going to be a hard scrabble. I'm going to have to cut down a bunch of trees and have a tough time getting things to work at first. But the long-term payout is so much more production on that land. And so Illinois is just, it's a booming population. But the Latter-day Saints aren't moving to Illinois because the crop land is just so incredible.
Gerrit They're moving to Illinois, if you recall, because they're being murdered in Missouri. Missouri shares a gigantic border with Illinois, and the Latter-day Saints from Western Missouri are driven by an extermination order, by murders, by assaults, to flee from Missouri into Quincy, Illinois at first, and then they eventually move up to Nauvoo. So Latter-day Saints settlement in Illinois doesn't follow the standard economic pattern of, you know what, let's move a little bit further west, let's move a little bit further west, let's move. It follows the pattern of, we need to go somewhere where we're not being murdered, which is a different demographic settlement plan. And so what that means is in most states, as this expansion goes, because it's coming east to west and the population and the immigration to the country is coming east to west, it means that your eastern areas of states are populated long before your western areas of states.
Gerrit They're moving to Illinois, if you recall, because they're being murdered in Missouri. Missouri shares a gigantic border with Illinois, and the Latter-day Saints from Western Missouri are driven by an extermination order, by murders, by assaults, to flee from Missouri into Quincy, Illinois at first, and then they eventually move up to Nauvoo. So Latter-day Saints settlement in Illinois doesn't follow the standard economic pattern of, you know what, let's move a little bit further west, let's move a little bit further west, let's move. It follows the pattern of, we need to go somewhere where we're not being murdered, which is a different demographic settlement plan. And so what that means is in most states, as this expansion goes, because it's coming east to west and the population and the immigration to the country is coming east to west, it means that your eastern areas of states are populated long before your western areas of states.
Gerrit I mean, Cleveland is much bigger earlier on than Gary, Indiana. It means that when you got very large populations, they were usually in the eastern portion of states. And then slowly, again, because land is more expensive in the eastern part, you move further to the western part of the state, and that land becomes more expensive, you leave the state entirely and go somewhere else. St. Louis is much bigger than Independence, or the area that would become Kansas City, right? Because settlement is in St. Louis first. In Illinois, it kind of starts that way. Chicago is very much an up-and-coming city there in eastern Illinois. And then all of a sudden, you have tens of thousands of settlers who move to Nauvoo, to the extreme western portion of Illinois.
Gerrit I mean, Cleveland is much bigger earlier on than Gary, Indiana. It means that when you got very large populations, they were usually in the eastern portion of states. And then slowly, again, because land is more expensive in the eastern part, you move further to the western part of the state, and that land becomes more expensive, you leave the state entirely and go somewhere else. St. Louis is much bigger than Independence, or the area that would become Kansas City, right? Because settlement is in St. Louis first. In Illinois, it kind of starts that way. Chicago is very much an up-and-coming city there in eastern Illinois. And then all of a sudden, you have tens of thousands of settlers who move to Nauvoo, to the extreme western portion of Illinois.
Gerrit Not through the natural process of, you know what, land is a little cheaper, a little further west, I'll move a little further west, I'll move a little further west, I'll move a little further west. No, they move there in mass. And not because land is cheaper there, but because that's where the church is headquartered. So, if you are an Illinoian, you go from having around 100 people living in the Commerce slash Nauvoo area in 1839, to having 20,000 people living there four years later. Now, percentage wise, for the state of Illinois, that is not a huge number. I mean, it's substantial. I don't want to say it's not substantial. The estimates are roughly around, I mean, somewhere around 600,000 people are living in Illinois by 1844. It is rapidly expanding. By the time of the Americans of War, there's going to be almost 2 million people living in it. I mean, it is a rapidly expanding state, and it's the booming state of the North all throughout this time period.
Gerrit Not through the natural process of, you know what, land is a little cheaper, a little further west, I'll move a little further west, I'll move a little further west, I'll move a little further west. No, they move there in mass. And not because land is cheaper there, but because that's where the church is headquartered. So, if you are an Illinoian, you go from having around 100 people living in the Commerce slash Nauvoo area in 1839, to having 20,000 people living there four years later. Now, percentage wise, for the state of Illinois, that is not a huge number. I mean, it's substantial. I don't want to say it's not substantial. The estimates are roughly around, I mean, somewhere around 600,000 people are living in Illinois by 1844. It is rapidly expanding. By the time of the Americans of War, there's going to be almost 2 million people living in it. I mean, it is a rapidly expanding state, and it's the booming state of the North all throughout this time period.
Gerrit So Latter-day Saints don't make up a huge minority, somewhere around 3, 3.5% of the state. But they all, not all, but they mainly live in one place, which means that they have a profound impact locally, on local politics, on local economies, that is not a natural progression, right? I mean, these other cities that are growing up, like Warsaw and Carthage, you know, they're going from having 200 to 300, and 300 to 400, and 400 to 500, and Nauvoo 20,000. I mean, it is a sudden influx of people, which engenders a great deal of resentment, especially if when they first start arriving, your response as a politician is, we shouldn't let any of these Mormons move here, and then 20,000 of them move there. Surprisingly, they aren't then willing to vote for you, because you've been on record talking about how you don't want them to exist.
Gerrit So Latter-day Saints don't make up a huge minority, somewhere around 3, 3.5% of the state. But they all, not all, but they mainly live in one place, which means that they have a profound impact locally, on local politics, on local economies, that is not a natural progression, right? I mean, these other cities that are growing up, like Warsaw and Carthage, you know, they're going from having 200 to 300, and 300 to 400, and 400 to 500, and Nauvoo 20,000. I mean, it is a sudden influx of people, which engenders a great deal of resentment, especially if when they first start arriving, your response as a politician is, we shouldn't let any of these Mormons move here, and then 20,000 of them move there. Surprisingly, they aren't then willing to vote for you, because you've been on record talking about how you don't want them to exist.
Gerrit So the gathering of Latter-day Saints together really is one of the things that is both a strength and viewed as a threat from the outside. And, you know, it's really interesting, right, that the arguments of locals in Hancock County about how Latter-day Saints were, you know, that they were clannish and that they were, you know, destroying the local economy and driving up land prices and, you know, diverting the river traffic to their town rather than theirs and able to control the local elections because they had so many votes. What's really fascinating is you go back and you read many of the articles that are published surrounding Nauvoo after 1999 when the announcement has made that they're going to rebuild the temple in Nauvoo. Now, Nauvoo prior to that, you know, it has like 1200 people who live in it.
Gerrit So the gathering of Latter-day Saints together really is one of the things that is both a strength and viewed as a threat from the outside. And, you know, it's really interesting, right, that the arguments of locals in Hancock County about how Latter-day Saints were, you know, that they were clannish and that they were, you know, destroying the local economy and driving up land prices and, you know, diverting the river traffic to their town rather than theirs and able to control the local elections because they had so many votes. What's really fascinating is you go back and you read many of the articles that are published surrounding Nauvoo after 1999 when the announcement has made that they're going to rebuild the temple in Nauvoo. Now, Nauvoo prior to that, you know, it has like 1200 people who live in it.
Gerrit And the reaction of many of the people in early 2000s Nauvoo, you know, so 160 years removed from the persecution of Latter-day Saints when they settled there, frankly, it's almost similar to reading a 19th century newspaper. Why don't want all these Mormons moving here? Because then we might have a Mormon mayor. That's called democracy, actually. There is outrage in the city to rebuild the Nauvoo Temple. The local closed Catholic Academy that was run by some nuns, that those nuns sold the property to the church to make way to build the temple. And you read all of these accounts from local residents, I feel so betrayed that the nuns sold the property to the... The school was already closed. And the nuns, when they were asked for comment, are like, we just sold it because we needed the money and we were done, we were moving somewhere else.
Gerrit And the reaction of many of the people in early 2000s Nauvoo, you know, so 160 years removed from the persecution of Latter-day Saints when they settled there, frankly, it's almost similar to reading a 19th century newspaper. Why don't want all these Mormons moving here? Because then we might have a Mormon mayor. That's called democracy, actually. There is outrage in the city to rebuild the Nauvoo Temple. The local closed Catholic Academy that was run by some nuns, that those nuns sold the property to the church to make way to build the temple. And you read all of these accounts from local residents, I feel so betrayed that the nuns sold the property to the... The school was already closed. And the nuns, when they were asked for comment, are like, we just sold it because we needed the money and we were done, we were moving somewhere else.
Gerrit I mean, even today, Nauvoo struggles with a population. I mean, the last time I was there, someone told me they just fell below a thousand. So the population hasn't been booming the way that people thought it would. But that reaction to Latter-day Saints being involved in the 21st century was a pretty... It was a pretty interesting thing. That we think we've come a really long way in our progression and our tolerance of various different cultures and ethnicities and religions. And all it really takes is for one of those more despised religions, ethnicities, whatever, to move en masse to a small town, and very quickly, many of the same arguments that were made back then are... They take back center stage. Now, why does all of this matter? As we talked about the martyrdom, if you go back to the martyrdom podcast, we talk about several of the things leading up to that, and Joseph Smith's run for president.
Gerrit I mean, even today, Nauvoo struggles with a population. I mean, the last time I was there, someone told me they just fell below a thousand. So the population hasn't been booming the way that people thought it would. But that reaction to Latter-day Saints being involved in the 21st century was a pretty... It was a pretty interesting thing. That we think we've come a really long way in our progression and our tolerance of various different cultures and ethnicities and religions. And all it really takes is for one of those more despised religions, ethnicities, whatever, to move en masse to a small town, and very quickly, many of the same arguments that were made back then are... They take back center stage. Now, why does all of this matter? As we talked about the martyrdom, if you go back to the martyrdom podcast, we talk about several of the things leading up to that, and Joseph Smith's run for president.
Gerrit But the reality is that the decision to leave the United States isn't just coming from the fact that there is increasing local opposition to the Latter-day Saints. It's also coming from the fact that there is apparent, at best, apathy on the part of the United States government, but a growing sense that the United States government isn't just passively doing nothing, but that they are actively doing something, and that something is negative. We all know the story of Joseph Smith talking to Martin Van Buren who says, you know, your cause is just, but I can do nothing for you. But the reality is, as tensions increase, and then especially after Joseph and Hyrum are murdered, and violence begins to become widespread against the Latter Day Saints in western Illinois, and there's no federal intervention, that reports start to leak out to Brigham Young that it's not just an apathy on the part of the federal government.
Gerrit But the reality is that the decision to leave the United States isn't just coming from the fact that there is increasing local opposition to the Latter-day Saints. It's also coming from the fact that there is apparent, at best, apathy on the part of the United States government, but a growing sense that the United States government isn't just passively doing nothing, but that they are actively doing something, and that something is negative. We all know the story of Joseph Smith talking to Martin Van Buren who says, you know, your cause is just, but I can do nothing for you. But the reality is, as tensions increase, and then especially after Joseph and Hyrum are murdered, and violence begins to become widespread against the Latter Day Saints in western Illinois, and there's no federal intervention, that reports start to leak out to Brigham Young that it's not just an apathy on the part of the federal government.
Gerrit The federal government is actually taking an active part, or plans to take an active part, against the Latter Day Saints. So, fast forward, I mean, I know, at this point, you've already fast forwarded the podcast, but we get to Joseph Smith's murder in 1844, one of the things that Brigham Young is adamant that he's going to do, is he's going to maintain the religion that Joseph Smith created. So even though people are uncomfortable with work for the dead, Brigham Young is going to maintain work for the dead. They might be uncomfortable with plural marriage, Brigham Young is going to maintain plural marriage. They might be uncomfortable with Joseph Smith's teachings about progressing to become like God, Brigham Young is going to maintain it. As Brigham says, to carry out Joseph's measures is sweeter than honey to me. One of those measures was that Joseph was planning to leave the country. And now that falls to Brigham, and it falls to him in a way that is not, you know, obviously it's not an easy way, because there was not widespread violence against Latter-day Saints in Illinois while Joseph Smith was alive.
Gerrit The federal government is actually taking an active part, or plans to take an active part, against the Latter Day Saints. So, fast forward, I mean, I know, at this point, you've already fast forwarded the podcast, but we get to Joseph Smith's murder in 1844, one of the things that Brigham Young is adamant that he's going to do, is he's going to maintain the religion that Joseph Smith created. So even though people are uncomfortable with work for the dead, Brigham Young is going to maintain work for the dead. They might be uncomfortable with plural marriage, Brigham Young is going to maintain plural marriage. They might be uncomfortable with Joseph Smith's teachings about progressing to become like God, Brigham Young is going to maintain it. As Brigham says, to carry out Joseph's measures is sweeter than honey to me. One of those measures was that Joseph was planning to leave the country. And now that falls to Brigham, and it falls to him in a way that is not, you know, obviously it's not an easy way, because there was not widespread violence against Latter-day Saints in Illinois while Joseph Smith was alive.
Gerrit Really the killing of Joseph Smith and Hyrum Smith is the beginning of the more widespread violence against Latter-day Saints. For Brigham Young, it's a much more, it's a much bigger reality. You have Latter-day Saints settlements in 1845 that are being, you know, regularly burned, looted. And then eventually you have Edmund Durfee, a settler in an outlying area outside of Nauvoo, who's murdered by the mob. They set his barn on fire, and when he runs outside, they shoot him in the back and kill him. You'll be surprised to find that no one's brought to justice for that. But the violence is such that even if they hadn't already decided that they were going to do what Joseph told them to do, and that's leave the country, there's just this greater impetus to go. Now, we've read some of those quotes before about that, but just, you know, as a refresher, right, you have people like John Taylor talking about getting out of the country.
Gerrit Really the killing of Joseph Smith and Hyrum Smith is the beginning of the more widespread violence against Latter-day Saints. For Brigham Young, it's a much more, it's a much bigger reality. You have Latter-day Saints settlements in 1845 that are being, you know, regularly burned, looted. And then eventually you have Edmund Durfee, a settler in an outlying area outside of Nauvoo, who's murdered by the mob. They set his barn on fire, and when he runs outside, they shoot him in the back and kill him. You'll be surprised to find that no one's brought to justice for that. But the violence is such that even if they hadn't already decided that they were going to do what Joseph told them to do, and that's leave the country, there's just this greater impetus to go. Now, we've read some of those quotes before about that, but just, you know, as a refresher, right, you have people like John Taylor talking about getting out of the country.
Gerrit One of the things, you know, his quote in the Council of 50, in regard to the situation of the world as it now exists, I don't care a damn, because they are as corrupt as the devil. We have no benefit from the laws of the land, and the only reason why they don't cut our throats is because they dare not. As Brother Heber C. Kimball says, I don't care how often the bucket is turned up. Some cry out that it will bring persecution. So as Taylor is talking about this, they are saying we need to make sure we don't speak out against what's being done to us, because that will make people even more mad, and they will try to persecute us. John Taylor, with a bullet in the back of his knee from Carthage, walking with a cane because of the attempted murder that has taken place against him, again, for which no one will be convicted. No one's going to go to jail for attempting to murder John Taylor. There's only a hundred-plus witnesses, but hey, he's done with it all.
Gerrit One of the things, you know, his quote in the Council of 50, in regard to the situation of the world as it now exists, I don't care a damn, because they are as corrupt as the devil. We have no benefit from the laws of the land, and the only reason why they don't cut our throats is because they dare not. As Brother Heber C. Kimball says, I don't care how often the bucket is turned up. Some cry out that it will bring persecution. So as Taylor is talking about this, they are saying we need to make sure we don't speak out against what's being done to us, because that will make people even more mad, and they will try to persecute us. John Taylor, with a bullet in the back of his knee from Carthage, walking with a cane because of the attempted murder that has taken place against him, again, for which no one will be convicted. No one's going to go to jail for attempting to murder John Taylor. There's only a hundred-plus witnesses, but hey, he's done with it all.
Gerrit He has reached that breaking point. Some cry out that it will bring persecution, but they cannot lie about us or persecute us worse than they have done, and I go in for whipping the scoundrels when they come into our midst. And if any of them come near me, I will use my cane to them, and I want my brethren to do likewise. So you can almost see him waving his cane over his head when he says this. He then goes on to talk about, I mean, part of this justification for the reason why they're going to leave the country. We know that we have no more justice here, no more justice than we could get at the gates of hell. And the only thing we have to do is to take care of ourselves. People talk about law and justice, and I go in for giving them the same kind of justice they give us. I go in for a company being sent out to find a place where we can establish the kingdom, erect the standard and dwell in peace and have our own laws. But there's a lot of other things that are going on there as they're looking at these different places.
Gerrit He has reached that breaking point. Some cry out that it will bring persecution, but they cannot lie about us or persecute us worse than they have done, and I go in for whipping the scoundrels when they come into our midst. And if any of them come near me, I will use my cane to them, and I want my brethren to do likewise. So you can almost see him waving his cane over his head when he says this. He then goes on to talk about, I mean, part of this justification for the reason why they're going to leave the country. We know that we have no more justice here, no more justice than we could get at the gates of hell. And the only thing we have to do is to take care of ourselves. People talk about law and justice, and I go in for giving them the same kind of justice they give us. I go in for a company being sent out to find a place where we can establish the kingdom, erect the standard and dwell in peace and have our own laws. But there's a lot of other things that are going on there as they're looking at these different places.
Gerrit And so part of what I want to talk about in the next episode, now that we've kind of laid the groundwork there, and what I want to talk about is the specific reports that Brigham Young is receiving in Nauvoo that caused this already terrible situation to seem so much worse. Because already you have this violence, you have these anti-Mormon mobs, these anti-Mormon committees, this kind of lawlessness going on, and then he's receiving reports from places like Washington DC that make the matter appear to be even more stark. And so that's what we're going to talk about on the next episode.
Gerrit And so part of what I want to talk about in the next episode, now that we've kind of laid the groundwork there, and what I want to talk about is the specific reports that Brigham Young is receiving in Nauvoo that caused this already terrible situation to seem so much worse. Because already you have this violence, you have these anti-Mormon mobs, these anti-Mormon committees, this kind of lawlessness going on, and then he's receiving reports from places like Washington DC that make the matter appear to be even more stark. And so that's what we're going to talk about on the next episode.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.
Quote board
Make a share card from any lineWe don't often think about it like, oh, the church moved to Utah. Well, the church moved to Mexico.
You guys just announcing his name on the program is enough that everyone glazed over. You know what? Let's have a rest him.
We got our chops on Oregon Territory by playing Oregon Trail as kids. You just died of dysentery.
Yeah, I think Bismarck is the only one.
Yeah, I don't want him to think that I love him.
The North Dakota of California.
That the gathering of the Latter-day Saints is something that is both a blessing and a curse for the Latter-day Saints in their history.
Why don't want all these Mormons moving here? Because then we might have a Mormon mayor. That's called democracy, actually.
Source shelf
10 sources cited on air · verses link to the scriptures, Joseph Smith’s documents to the Joseph Smith Papersarticle
Gerrit Dirkmaat, "Safely Beyond the Limits of the United States: The Mormon Expulsion and U.S. Expansion," in Inventing Destiny: Cultural Explorations of U.S. Expansion (University Press of Kansas)
Gerrit's own article on the Saints' attempts to get outside the United States.
record
Treaty of 1818 (United States and Great Britain)
Set the 49th parallel border and joint occupation of Oregon Country.
record
Webster-Ashburton Treaty (1842)
Settled border disputes with Britain from Maine to Minnesota, including the Northwest Angle.
letter
Letters of an Ohio farmer to his family (not named on air)
A non-Latter-day Saint dreaming of cheap, productive land in Illinois.
newspaper
Local reaction to rebuilding the Nauvoo Temple, about 1999-2002
Residents' complaints sound like 19th-century newspapers, including anger at nuns who sold their property.
record
Joseph Smith's meeting with President Martin Van Buren
Van Buren's reply that their cause was just but he could do nothing.
sermon
Brigham Young, on carrying out Joseph's measures
to carry out Joseph's measures is sweeter than honey to me.
Brigham is determined to keep everything Joseph taught, including leaving the country.
record
Murder of Edmund Durfee near Nauvoo, 1845
Shot in the back by a mob after they set his barn on fire; no one was brought to justice.
record
John Taylor in the Council of Fifty minutes, 1845
We have no benefit from the laws of the land, and the only reason why they don't cut our throats is because they dare not.
Still walking with a cane from Carthage, Taylor says the Saints get no benefit from the laws.
record
John Taylor in the Council of Fifty minutes, 1845, continued
I go in for a company being sent out to find a place where we can establish the kingdom, erect the standard and dwell in peace and have our own laws.
He calls for sending a company to find a place to establish the kingdom.
Episode quiz
Pass to stamp your passportQuestion 1 of 7Score 0
What country did the Saints settle in when they first arrived in the Salt Lake Valley?
Fun with Numbers
This episode, counted from its transcript50:42long
2.5 minbefore the topic starts
10sources read or named
0scripture passages
7different years mentioned
0dollar amounts said
From 1818 to 1999
Every year mentioned in the episode. Tap one to jump to it.
Percentages said on air
Putting numbers to words
All 7,309 words of the automatic transcript, counted against a word list for each theme. It shows how much a theme comes up, not what was said about it. See the lists
What this episode talks about more than usual
- Mobs, jail and violence23 mentions, 3.8 times the show’s usual rate
Names said most
Joseph counts any Joseph.
Joseph 16Brigham Young 9John Taylor 3Hyrum Smith 2
Signature words
Said often here and in few other episodes.
settler 8Ashburton 5corn 9Webster 5populated 6geography 6
More from this episode
Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.
Claim check
What critics say, and what the episode foundThe pioneers moved to Utah, which was part of the United States.
The Saints were driven out because they were a huge share of Illinois's population.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.
Take it to class
Ready to copy into a lesson or a textBy late 1843 Joseph Smith had decided the Saints must leave the United States, and Brigham Young saw carrying out that plan as part of carrying out Joseph's measures.
Gathering together gave the Saints strength and support, and it also made them look like a threat to their neighbors.
When the pioneers reached the Salt Lake Valley, they were in Mexico, not the United States.
Even around 2000, some Nauvoo residents objected to the temple being rebuilt in language that echoed the 1840s. Prejudice against a group that moves in together is not just a thing of the past.
Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.
Banter bin
The running jokes, for people who skip aheadJapanese rice tariffsAsking Gerrit about the Battalion is like asking Richard about rice tariffs (1:55).
Treaty of Guadalupe HidalgoPromised for the end of this episode, probably not delivered (4:12, 4:18).
Rest hymn, rest hymn, then GerritGerrit's 30-minute Pioneer Day talk in Richard's ward needed two rest hymns, and a Mexican flag joke (5:57, 6:37).
Oregon TrailYou just died of dysentery (8:19).
The 1818 bike lockRichard's combination (11:11).
North DakotaBismarck is the only settlement, apologies to Jed; even Los Angeles was the North Dakota of California (14:52, 15:05, 26:29, 29:47).
Doug and Emily from MinnesotaMembers of the Church at the time of this episode (17:31, 17:46).
BYU San DiegoIf only the Saints had settled on the coast (23:03).
Tonopah and TehachapiNo listeners there, Richard checked (24:31, 24:39).
Idaho farmerGerrit on 50 acres of corn and getting crops to market (30:52).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag
Your question could be next week’s episodeQuestions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
Go deeperWhere to read more.
Go deeper
Deep dives the episode points towardGerrit's article "Safely Beyond the Limits of the United States" in Inventing Destiny (University Press of Kansas) (3:46).
The Oregon boundary dispute, the Treaty of 1818 and the Webster-Ashburton Treaty, including the Northwest Angle (16:31).
The Council of Fifty minutes from 1845 and the search for a place outside the United States (47:15).
The 1999 announcement to rebuild the Nauvoo Temple and how the town reacted (40:32).
SOT Litner · S2E45.