You're gonna have to listen to find out whether or not you believe in Jesus. It could go either way.
Standard of Truth · Season 2 · Episode 50 · 1:00:39
Are "Mormons" Christian? Part 1
Christians spent centuries arguing over whether Jesus was created by the Father or eternally begotten, long before anyone asked whether Mormons are Christian.
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The question ·
Are Latter-day Saints Christian, and why do other Christians say they're not?
Richard
After an email from "Ari the Elder," Richard brings up a Twitter trend saying Mormons are not Christian, along with a Latter-day Saint's reply that Jesus is the Christ and the only source of salvation. Gerrit explains why the claim shocks members, since everything they do is in the name of Jesus, and why the Church wrote a Gospel Topics essay on it. To understand what other Christians mean, he goes back to the earliest debates over who Jesus is: the "I am" claims, Nephi and the condescension of God, Docetism, and the clash between Arius and Athanasius over whether Jesus was created. The episode ends with Christianity growing fast in the Roman Empire and Constantine stepping in, a cliffhanger for next time.
Who comes upJesus ChristMosesNephiAriusAthanasiusConstantine
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Richard jokes they'll find out whether Latter-day Saints believe in Jesus.
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316 moments · tap a time to play from thereIntro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast, hosted by historian, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, where we explore the early days of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and gain rare historical insights into how a young farm boy was able to establish a new church and grow it by way of visions, manifestations and miracles.
Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast, hosted by historian, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, where we explore the early days of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and gain rare historical insights into how a young farm boy was able to establish a new church and grow it by way of visions, manifestations and miracles.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. In this week's podcast, we're going to talk about our Latter-day Saints Christian. But before we get to that, wanted to read an email that we've received.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. In this week's podcast, we're going to talk about our Latter-day Saints Christian. But before we get to that, wanted to read an email that we've received.
Gerrit Now everyone's like on the edge of their seats.
Gerrit Now everyone's like on the edge of their seats.
Richard Yeah, spoiler alert, we're not.
Richard Yeah, spoiler alert, we're not.
Gerrit Whoa, whoa.
Richard Well, according to the vast-
Gerrit Whoa, whoa.
Richard Well, according to the vast-
Gerrit Let's find out. You're gonna have to listen to find out whether or not you believe in Jesus. It could go either way.
Gerrit Let's find out. You're gonna have to listen to find out whether or not you believe in Jesus. It could go either way.
Richard Well, so that's actually one of the things, one of the biggest issues that we, oh, well, all right, we'll get into it, we'll get. But I wanted to read an email from Ari, actually. Ari emailed in.
Richard Well, so that's actually one of the things, one of the biggest issues that we, oh, well, all right, we'll get into it, we'll get. But I wanted to read an email from Ari, actually. Ari emailed in.
Gerrit An Ari, which Ari?
Gerrit An Ari, which Ari?
Richard Well, so the subject is Ari the Elder. So the message is, dear Dr. Dirkmaat and Field Marshal LeDuc. A while back, I was listening to your excellent podcast. When you read from an email, or when you read an email from someone named Ari, who claimed to be from Missouri. Because it would be extremely unlikely for there to be more than one Latter-day Saint Ari from Missouri, I correctly identified your commenter as the other Ari from my ward. Yes, there are indeed two Ari's in the same ward, and neither of us is Jewish. That's not possible.
Richard Well, so the subject is Ari the Elder. So the message is, dear Dr. Dirkmaat and Field Marshal LeDuc. A while back, I was listening to your excellent podcast. When you read from an email, or when you read an email from someone named Ari, who claimed to be from Missouri. Because it would be extremely unlikely for there to be more than one Latter-day Saint Ari from Missouri, I correctly identified your commenter as the other Ari from my ward. Yes, there are indeed two Ari's in the same ward, and neither of us is Jewish. That's not possible.
Gerrit I think that's just because you had stated that perhaps they were, because you are.
Gerrit I think that's just because you had stated that perhaps they were, because you are.
Richard That's right. But look, I mean, my grandmother had several friends named Ari. I only know a handful of people named Ari. 100% of them are Jewish. But perhaps it's possible. In this world, perhaps it is possible. Unlike Ari the younger, I, Ari the elder, have never lived in Missouri, nor did take the opportunity during either of my trips to the state to ask the proper pronunciation of the state's name, so I cannot register any opinion as to the correctness of your Missouri accents. Ari the elder goes on to talk about kind of the settling of Salt Lake and some of the things we're actually gonna get to in a future podcast, but wanted to share that.
Richard That's right. But look, I mean, my grandmother had several friends named Ari. I only know a handful of people named Ari. 100% of them are Jewish. But perhaps it's possible. In this world, perhaps it is possible. Unlike Ari the younger, I, Ari the elder, have never lived in Missouri, nor did take the opportunity during either of my trips to the state to ask the proper pronunciation of the state's name, so I cannot register any opinion as to the correctness of your Missouri accents. Ari the elder goes on to talk about kind of the settling of Salt Lake and some of the things we're actually gonna get to in a future podcast, but wanted to share that.
Gerrit So Ari the elder wants to stake his claim as not being the Ari who's emailed us several other times.
Gerrit So Ari the elder wants to stake his claim as not being the Ari who's emailed us several other times.
Richard Yes, that's right.
Richard Yes, that's right.
Gerrit So the main point of that email was, I'm not this guy, just so everyone knows. First of all, full disclosure.
Gerrit So the main point of that email was, I'm not this guy, just so everyone knows. First of all, full disclosure.
Richard Yeah, full disclosure to Ari's, Ari the elder and Ari the younger.
Richard Yeah, full disclosure to Ari's, Ari the elder and Ari the younger.
Gerrit I feel like he's taking the Ari the elder because he's trying to say he's somewhat better. I mean, he's trying to, it's a call to authority.
Gerrit I feel like he's taking the Ari the elder because he's trying to say he's somewhat better. I mean, he's trying to, it's a call to authority.
Richard Yeah, a little bit. Anyway, it was very funny. Both Ari's very funny, very witty. Ari, we very much appreciate your email. So a couple of, about a month ago, actually, I was gonna say a couple weeks ago, but about a month ago, I was on the Twitters, and there was something that was trending on Twitter. I follow a couple of Latter-day Saint folks on Twitter that are pretty funny. Lego Joseph Smith is great, and the state clerk Emeritus is also good. They are often very funny. So Lego Joseph Smith said this, Mormons are not Christian is trending. This might sound offensive to us at first, but ask these people how they define Christian, and you'll be glad you're not that.
Richard Yeah, a little bit. Anyway, it was very funny. Both Ari's very funny, very witty. Ari, we very much appreciate your email. So a couple of, about a month ago, actually, I was gonna say a couple weeks ago, but about a month ago, I was on the Twitters, and there was something that was trending on Twitter. I follow a couple of Latter-day Saint folks on Twitter that are pretty funny. Lego Joseph Smith is great, and the state clerk Emeritus is also good. They are often very funny. So Lego Joseph Smith said this, Mormons are not Christian is trending. This might sound offensive to us at first, but ask these people how they define Christian, and you'll be glad you're not that.
Gerrit All right.
Gerrit All right.
Richard It's a little zippy. So there was in all of the hullabaloo on this trending, I didn't know, maybe Mitt Romney said something, and all of a sudden it was started trending, who knows? But there was a gentleman from Idaho, Scott Adams, he was on the Twitters as well. And so there was kind of a back and forth as he was trying to explain, hey guys, we're Christian. I mean, come on, what are you talking about? And so one of the tweets that he wrote was, rather than argue if Mormons are Christians, I'll just say this, as a Latter-day Saint, I believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and the Savior of the world. He is the only source of salvation, and I know he suffered and died for mankind to save a sinner like me. And I think that many, many people, Latter-day Saints, agree with what Scott is saying.
Richard It's a little zippy. So there was in all of the hullabaloo on this trending, I didn't know, maybe Mitt Romney said something, and all of a sudden it was started trending, who knows? But there was a gentleman from Idaho, Scott Adams, he was on the Twitters as well. And so there was kind of a back and forth as he was trying to explain, hey guys, we're Christian. I mean, come on, what are you talking about? And so one of the tweets that he wrote was, rather than argue if Mormons are Christians, I'll just say this, as a Latter-day Saint, I believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and the Savior of the world. He is the only source of salvation, and I know he suffered and died for mankind to save a sinner like me. And I think that many, many people, Latter-day Saints, agree with what Scott is saying.
Gerrit Well, I would hope all of them agree that Jesus is the Christ.
Gerrit Well, I would hope all of them agree that Jesus is the Christ.
Richard They agree with what Scott's saying.
Richard They agree with what Scott's saying.
Gerrit I would hope if you are calling yourself a Latter-day Saint, fundamentally, you believe Jesus is the Christ. I wish that part.
Gerrit I would hope if you are calling yourself a Latter-day Saint, fundamentally, you believe Jesus is the Christ. I wish that part.
Richard That's very true. But I think that the confusion, there's often no confusion as to, and there are several scriptures that Scott cites here. And essentially, it's like, I don't understand what you're saying. Here's scripture from the Book of Mormon that says this about Jesus. Here's a scripture from the Book of Mormon that says this about Jesus. And on and on we go, what do you mean that we're not Christian? And so what we wanted to talk about on this episode is, where this idea that Latter-day Saints aren't Christian, there's a Gospel Topics Essay that was originally titled, Are Mormons Christian? And it's been changed to our Latter-day Saints Christian. Actually, if you go to the Gospel Topics Essay, it says, are Mormons, in quotes, Christian? Because that's what people would say. And so we wanted to talk a little bit about that and have Gerrit maybe provide some historical context as to where that problem is.
Richard That's very true. But I think that the confusion, there's often no confusion as to, and there are several scriptures that Scott cites here. And essentially, it's like, I don't understand what you're saying. Here's scripture from the Book of Mormon that says this about Jesus. Here's a scripture from the Book of Mormon that says this about Jesus. And on and on we go, what do you mean that we're not Christian? And so what we wanted to talk about on this episode is, where this idea that Latter-day Saints aren't Christian, there's a Gospel Topics Essay that was originally titled, Are Mormons Christian? And it's been changed to our Latter-day Saints Christian. Actually, if you go to the Gospel Topics Essay, it says, are Mormons, in quotes, Christian? Because that's what people would say. And so we wanted to talk a little bit about that and have Gerrit maybe provide some historical context as to where that problem is.
Richard Because it's one of those things, this happened on my mission quite a few times, where I'm saying a word.
Richard Because it's one of those things, this happened on my mission quite a few times, where I'm saying a word.
Gerrit So in our last episode, we learned that on your mission, you promulgated multiple false teachings about plural marriage.
Gerrit So in our last episode, we learned that on your mission, you promulgated multiple false teachings about plural marriage.
Richard Yes.
Richard Yes.
Gerrit So now-
Gerrit So now-
Richard Well, could you just state what those were just before we just jumped to possible conclusions of what-
Richard Well, could you just state what those were just before we just jumped to possible conclusions of what-
Gerrit So you think that people listening are that you're teaching that we practice it?
Gerrit So you think that people listening are that you're teaching that we practice it?
Richard That's what I'm saying, yeah.
Richard That's what I'm saying, yeah.
Gerrit No, it was not that.
Gerrit No, it was not that.
Richard It was the thing that-
Richard It was the thing that-
Gerrit The standard explanation that not very many people did it.
Gerrit The standard explanation that not very many people did it.
Richard Not very many people practiced it, there were more women than men, you know, whatever. You're trying to dismiss it away to help somebody that doesn't feel comfortable with programming join the session.
Richard Not very many people practiced it, there were more women than men, you know, whatever. You're trying to dismiss it away to help somebody that doesn't feel comfortable with programming join the session.
Gerrit I wanted to make people go back and listen to the previous one in order to find out what he said.
Gerrit I wanted to make people go back and listen to the previous one in order to find out what he said.
Richard No need to now, that's what we talked about for 50 minutes.
Richard No need to now, that's what we talked about for 50 minutes.
Gerrit I'm trying to grow our listenership, Richard's trying to shrink it. He's looking for a landing pad out of here. If anyone would like to apply to be a co-host of the Standard of Truth podcast, please contact us. I know his wife, Becky, wants to be a co-host, but only if all we do is attack anti-mormons the whole time.
Gerrit I'm trying to grow our listenership, Richard's trying to shrink it. He's looking for a landing pad out of here. If anyone would like to apply to be a co-host of the Standard of Truth podcast, please contact us. I know his wife, Becky, wants to be a co-host, but only if all we do is attack anti-mormons the whole time.
Richard It's her favorite thing. When Gerrit gets worked up and attacks anti-mormons.
Richard It's her favorite thing. When Gerrit gets worked up and attacks anti-mormons.
Gerrit Yeah, she's always like, that's okay, that's okay. And then someone claims that Willard Richard shot Joseph Smith and I lose it on the air. And she's like, that was the greatest podcast ever.
Gerrit Yeah, she's always like, that's okay, that's okay. And then someone claims that Willard Richard shot Joseph Smith and I lose it on the air. And she's like, that was the greatest podcast ever.
Richard So we wanted to, so, you know, this would happen where I would say something on my mission. I would use the same word that they're using. And I'm like, how are you not understanding? And I'm like, well, this thing. And they're like, yeah, this thing. And I'm like, that's what I said. We're talking past each other. Because there are very significant reasons why somebody who would be, you know, a standard evangelical Christian would say that a Latter-day Saint isn't Christian, despite you saying, I believe in Jesus. They're saying, yeah, but it's a different Jesus.
Richard So we wanted to, so, you know, this would happen where I would say something on my mission. I would use the same word that they're using. And I'm like, how are you not understanding? And I'm like, well, this thing. And they're like, yeah, this thing. And I'm like, that's what I said. We're talking past each other. Because there are very significant reasons why somebody who would be, you know, a standard evangelical Christian would say that a Latter-day Saint isn't Christian, despite you saying, I believe in Jesus. They're saying, yeah, but it's a different Jesus.
Gerrit Yeah, and you know, the very fact that there is a Gospel Topics Essay, when we say the Gospel Topics Essay, these are the essays that are located in your Gospel Library app. If you were to click Church History, there'll be three separate subfolders under there that deal with historical questions about the church. And one of them is called Gospel Topics Essays. One of those essays is our quote unquote Mormon's Christians. All of the Gospel Topics Essays are written to topics that are not as well understood and often because of a lack of understanding can be used to harm people's testimonies, or they can sometimes be used antagonistically against the church. And so you might be surprised that one of the essays that was created is this very question, are Mormons Christian? And I'm going to guess that the vast majority of our listeners, well, maybe not of our listeners, but listeners to other Latter-day Saint podcasts, but the vast majority have never once questioned whether or not they believe in Jesus.
Gerrit Yeah, and you know, the very fact that there is a Gospel Topics Essay, when we say the Gospel Topics Essay, these are the essays that are located in your Gospel Library app. If you were to click Church History, there'll be three separate subfolders under there that deal with historical questions about the church. And one of them is called Gospel Topics Essays. One of those essays is our quote unquote Mormon's Christians. All of the Gospel Topics Essays are written to topics that are not as well understood and often because of a lack of understanding can be used to harm people's testimonies, or they can sometimes be used antagonistically against the church. And so you might be surprised that one of the essays that was created is this very question, are Mormons Christian? And I'm going to guess that the vast majority of our listeners, well, maybe not of our listeners, but listeners to other Latter-day Saint podcasts, but the vast majority have never once questioned whether or not they believe in Jesus.
Gerrit I would guess that that's one of the more fundamental beliefs that all of you have, that you're like, yeah, I'm not quite so sure exactly how ceilings work in the next life, but I believe in Jesus. I mean, I think that that's pretty fundamental for anyone who believes in Jesus. And so I think that's part of the reason why it's so shocking. You know, you listed off a few people on Twitter, and I think that's why it comes across as a shock. You know, for a practicing Latter-day Saint, I mean, they eat, drink and sleep believing in Jesus. I mean, they're praying, they're praying in their prayers and closing them in the name of Jesus. They're bearing their testimony in the name of Jesus. They're talking about the atonement. Everything is about Jesus. And it's also everything that they hear when they listen to general conference. It is about Jesus. It's about Jesus. It's about Jesus over and over and over again. So that comes then as a shock when they're talking to their Christian friend and their Christian friend says, well, you actually aren't a Christian.
Gerrit I would guess that that's one of the more fundamental beliefs that all of you have, that you're like, yeah, I'm not quite so sure exactly how ceilings work in the next life, but I believe in Jesus. I mean, I think that that's pretty fundamental for anyone who believes in Jesus. And so I think that's part of the reason why it's so shocking. You know, you listed off a few people on Twitter, and I think that's why it comes across as a shock. You know, for a practicing Latter-day Saint, I mean, they eat, drink and sleep believing in Jesus. I mean, they're praying, they're praying in their prayers and closing them in the name of Jesus. They're bearing their testimony in the name of Jesus. They're talking about the atonement. Everything is about Jesus. And it's also everything that they hear when they listen to general conference. It is about Jesus. It's about Jesus. It's about Jesus over and over and over again. So that comes then as a shock when they're talking to their Christian friend and their Christian friend says, well, you actually aren't a Christian.
Gerrit If you were to look up the definition of Christian in the dictionary, what would you find, Richard?
Gerrit If you were to look up the definition of Christian in the dictionary, what would you find, Richard?
Richard Someone that believes in Jesus.
Richard Someone that believes in Jesus.
Gerrit Yeah, a believer in Jesus, right? So that means that that person is not taking just a standard dictionary definition there. What is going on is that the person, the non Latter-day Saint is asserting that you have beliefs that are so far outside of the realm of what is quote unquote acceptable Christianity that you aren't even Christian at all. Now, this of course is a really, it's a really tough thing, right? Because someone is trying to tell you that you aren't something that you very much believe that you are. That is the case that I think many Latter-day Saints find themselves in when they're having these kinds of conversations. So what are some of the major reasons why? We've touched on, I think, all of these in various podcasts in little bits here and there. Just part of it, though, it's part of it. It's part of it, it's part of it. And honestly, we're not gonna be able to cover all the different reasons on this podcast either.
Gerrit Yeah, a believer in Jesus, right? So that means that that person is not taking just a standard dictionary definition there. What is going on is that the person, the non Latter-day Saint is asserting that you have beliefs that are so far outside of the realm of what is quote unquote acceptable Christianity that you aren't even Christian at all. Now, this of course is a really, it's a really tough thing, right? Because someone is trying to tell you that you aren't something that you very much believe that you are. That is the case that I think many Latter-day Saints find themselves in when they're having these kinds of conversations. So what are some of the major reasons why? We've touched on, I think, all of these in various podcasts in little bits here and there. Just part of it, though, it's part of it. It's part of it, it's part of it. And honestly, we're not gonna be able to cover all the different reasons on this podcast either.
Gerrit But there are some certain things that are, when your Christian friend says that you aren't Christian, that are touchstones with me. Now look, I realize it's offensive. It's an offensive thing when someone says it. And some people have even, they try to highlight the fact that as a Latter-day Saint, they say, I'm a Christian, I'm a Christian. And yet they'll find that their Christian friends will say, no, you aren't. You can call yourself a Christian all day long, right? And your dog can think that he's your limo driver, but that doesn't make him your limo driver. You can't just think and say that you are one, that's determined by someone else. The definition of what is a Christian is really a, it's a, the battle for that goes all the way back to the earliest days of Christianity.
Gerrit But there are some certain things that are, when your Christian friend says that you aren't Christian, that are touchstones with me. Now look, I realize it's offensive. It's an offensive thing when someone says it. And some people have even, they try to highlight the fact that as a Latter-day Saint, they say, I'm a Christian, I'm a Christian. And yet they'll find that their Christian friends will say, no, you aren't. You can call yourself a Christian all day long, right? And your dog can think that he's your limo driver, but that doesn't make him your limo driver. You can't just think and say that you are one, that's determined by someone else. The definition of what is a Christian is really a, it's a, the battle for that goes all the way back to the earliest days of Christianity.
Gerrit What does it mean to be a believer in Jesus? Does it mean that you believe that Jesus was a great teacher? Does it mean that you believe that Jesus was the Messiah? Does it mean that not only was Jesus the Messiah, but that Jesus was divine? That Jesus was the Son of God or that Jesus was God? Now, there are multiple different ways that that could have been interpreted. And in fact, in the early days of Christianity, people interpret it many ways. Prior to Jesus, most practicing Jews did not believe that the Messiah was going to be the Son of God. Most Jews in the time of Jesus thought the Messiah was going to be a great lawgiver, a great teacher, a great military figure, someone who was going to be perhaps the greatest prophet ever. But none of those things make him divine. And again, the word divine means God.
Gerrit What does it mean to be a believer in Jesus? Does it mean that you believe that Jesus was a great teacher? Does it mean that you believe that Jesus was the Messiah? Does it mean that not only was Jesus the Messiah, but that Jesus was divine? That Jesus was the Son of God or that Jesus was God? Now, there are multiple different ways that that could have been interpreted. And in fact, in the early days of Christianity, people interpret it many ways. Prior to Jesus, most practicing Jews did not believe that the Messiah was going to be the Son of God. Most Jews in the time of Jesus thought the Messiah was going to be a great lawgiver, a great teacher, a great military figure, someone who was going to be perhaps the greatest prophet ever. But none of those things make him divine. And again, the word divine means God.
Gerrit So already in the earliest stages of Jesus' both ministry and after his ministry, there's a question of who Jesus even is. Several times, the leaders of the people and the scribes and Pharisees take up stones to stone Jesus, in fact. We see this a couple of times in the Gospel of John. Most tellingly, you get this when Jesus is talking about who he is to these leaders of the people. And he says, Abraham saw my day, right, and rejoiced in it. And they mock him. They're like, you aren't even 50 years old, and you've seen Abraham? Because of course, Abraham's been gone for a couple thousand years. And Jesus' response, his rejoinder is, before Abraham was, I am. Now, that just sounds like some archaic grammar to us.
Gerrit So already in the earliest stages of Jesus' both ministry and after his ministry, there's a question of who Jesus even is. Several times, the leaders of the people and the scribes and Pharisees take up stones to stone Jesus, in fact. We see this a couple of times in the Gospel of John. Most tellingly, you get this when Jesus is talking about who he is to these leaders of the people. And he says, Abraham saw my day, right, and rejoiced in it. And they mock him. They're like, you aren't even 50 years old, and you've seen Abraham? Because of course, Abraham's been gone for a couple thousand years. And Jesus' response, his rejoinder is, before Abraham was, I am. Now, that just sounds like some archaic grammar to us.
Gerrit But in fact, it was a very loud declaration that Jesus was Jehovah. Because when Moses meets the burning bush up on Mount Sinai, and he's told to go back and tell the people, Moses says, well, who should I say your name is, that I can go tell people who you are. I can't just go and say, hey, there's a prairie fire out there that's saying that they're God, who are you? And he says, you know, the Lord says to him, I am that I am. And so that terminology, I am, is actually where the name of God in Judaism derives from. The, it's, you know, to be unspoken basically, but without vowels, it's, it's, you know, I am that I am is, is where you get Yahweh from, right?
Gerrit But in fact, it was a very loud declaration that Jesus was Jehovah. Because when Moses meets the burning bush up on Mount Sinai, and he's told to go back and tell the people, Moses says, well, who should I say your name is, that I can go tell people who you are. I can't just go and say, hey, there's a prairie fire out there that's saying that they're God, who are you? And he says, you know, the Lord says to him, I am that I am. And so that terminology, I am, is actually where the name of God in Judaism derives from. The, it's, you know, to be unspoken basically, but without vowels, it's, it's, you know, I am that I am is, is where you get Yahweh from, right?
Gerrit And the Greek version of that is Jehovah. And so this very declaration of who God is in the Old Testament is now being reiterated by Jesus, who is saying, before Abraham was Jehovah, meaning I am Jehovah, right? That's what he's saying, right? Abraham saw my day. How could Abraham have seen your day? Because I'm Jehovah. And that, and of course, the Jews take up stones to kill him. So some of Jesus' own followers were more than ready to accept that he was a messiah in the sense that he had great teachings, or that he was a messiah that was going to lead people into the proper understanding of the law. But it was quite another argument entirely to say that Jesus was actually God.
Gerrit And the Greek version of that is Jehovah. And so this very declaration of who God is in the Old Testament is now being reiterated by Jesus, who is saying, before Abraham was Jehovah, meaning I am Jehovah, right? That's what he's saying, right? Abraham saw my day. How could Abraham have seen your day? Because I'm Jehovah. And that, and of course, the Jews take up stones to kill him. So some of Jesus' own followers were more than ready to accept that he was a messiah in the sense that he had great teachings, or that he was a messiah that was going to lead people into the proper understanding of the law. But it was quite another argument entirely to say that Jesus was actually God.
Gerrit One of my favorite discussions in the Book of Mormon, you'll know it is because I brought it up so many times, is when Nephi is conversing both with the Spirit of the Lord, and then also an angel, right? It kind of flashes back and forth there. And he's asked the question, knowest thou the condescension of God? And the reason why I love the conversation so much is that Nephi's response is the same as my students. Whenever I ask them a question that they don't know the answer to, they're really good about giving answers to other questions. So, you know, what drove the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor? I know that Joseph Smith was teaching about the plan of salvation. Okay, yes, yes, he was. And, you know, it's a true statement. It's just not as...
Gerrit One of my favorite discussions in the Book of Mormon, you'll know it is because I brought it up so many times, is when Nephi is conversing both with the Spirit of the Lord, and then also an angel, right? It kind of flashes back and forth there. And he's asked the question, knowest thou the condescension of God? And the reason why I love the conversation so much is that Nephi's response is the same as my students. Whenever I ask them a question that they don't know the answer to, they're really good about giving answers to other questions. So, you know, what drove the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor? I know that Joseph Smith was teaching about the plan of salvation. Okay, yes, yes, he was. And, you know, it's a true statement. It's just not as...
Richard So Nephi's like, knowest thou the condescension of God? And Nephi's like, well, you know, I know he loves his kids. I know he loves his children.
Richard So Nephi's like, knowest thou the condescension of God? And Nephi's like, well, you know, I know he loves his kids. I know he loves his children.
Gerrit Yeah, exactly, so the angel's like, knowest thou the condescension of God? And Nephi's response is, I'm assuming haltingly, it doesn't say that in the Book of Mormon, but I'm assuming...
Gerrit Yeah, exactly, so the angel's like, knowest thou the condescension of God? And Nephi's response is, I'm assuming haltingly, it doesn't say that in the Book of Mormon, but I'm assuming...
Richard Oh, because he wrote it.
Gerrit Yeah, because, yeah, he's padding the stats. And he says, I know he loves his children. Nevertheless, I don't know the meaning of it. So he's admitting, I don't know what you're talking about, right? I know God loves us. You know what? And that's kind of where we all, that's how we all...
Richard Oh, because he wrote it.
Gerrit Yeah, because, yeah, he's padding the stats. And he says, I know he loves his children. Nevertheless, I don't know the meaning of it. So he's admitting, I don't know what you're talking about, right? I know God loves us. You know what? And that's kind of where we all, that's how we all...
Richard That's a good answer, Nathan.
Gerrit Why do you think this happened?
Richard That's a good answer, Nathan.
Gerrit Why do you think this happened?
Richard If this was a family feud, we'd all be like, good answer.
Richard If this was a family feud, we'd all be like, good answer.
Gerrit Yeah, we'd be like, good answer, and then, eh, right, would be up on the board. Well, so, but what the angel then proceeds to show him is that the same God, the same God that led the children of Israel out of Egypt, is the same God that's going to be born of a virgin in Bethlehem. The condescension of God is that the same God that was already all-powerful, omnipotent God, already God, became a baby, became mortal, and became subject to death and the flesh. And as we learned in D&C 93, in one of our many, many years ago episode, I mean, year, where we talked about D&C 93, passed through a veil and lost not only all that power, but also all of the knowledge that he had.
Gerrit Yeah, we'd be like, good answer, and then, eh, right, would be up on the board. Well, so, but what the angel then proceeds to show him is that the same God, the same God that led the children of Israel out of Egypt, is the same God that's going to be born of a virgin in Bethlehem. The condescension of God is that the same God that was already all-powerful, omnipotent God, already God, became a baby, became mortal, and became subject to death and the flesh. And as we learned in D&C 93, in one of our many, many years ago episode, I mean, year, where we talked about D&C 93, passed through a veil and lost not only all that power, but also all of the knowledge that he had.
Gerrit That is a fundamental, important thing to understand about what Christians are claiming about Jesus. They are not claiming that Jesus is a great teacher. They're not claiming that Jesus is a super prophet. He doesn't just have all the moves of Moses, plus he knows how to do the mashed potato on the side. He is actually God. Now you're thinking as a Mormon, well, okay, I'm on board with that. So where does the disconnect come? Well, it comes a little bit further down the line. Once Christians assert that Jesus is literally divine, you now have a real problem. And when I say, what do you mean you have a problem? Well, the problem is, the most fundamental aspect of Judaism in Jesus' time is that there is only one God, period.
Gerrit That is a fundamental, important thing to understand about what Christians are claiming about Jesus. They are not claiming that Jesus is a great teacher. They're not claiming that Jesus is a super prophet. He doesn't just have all the moves of Moses, plus he knows how to do the mashed potato on the side. He is actually God. Now you're thinking as a Mormon, well, okay, I'm on board with that. So where does the disconnect come? Well, it comes a little bit further down the line. Once Christians assert that Jesus is literally divine, you now have a real problem. And when I say, what do you mean you have a problem? Well, the problem is, the most fundamental aspect of Judaism in Jesus' time is that there is only one God, period.
Gerrit There's one God. The reason why the Jews took up stones to stone him is because Jesus was asserting that he was in fact that God. And so that to them was blasphemy. Now, of course, he really was. They just assumed, they thought it was blasphemy. So if the most fundamental thing about Jewish worship in Jesus' time is that there's only one God, and again, that's a big deal because everyone around them is worshiping all kinds of gods, right? And in fact, most people believe that every single locale has its own local gods and minor gods and bigger gods, and you go all the way up to Jupiter and all the way down to a more minor god that's over this certain stream. But the gods are plentiful and they are many and they are everywhere and they control everything. And as far as Judaism is concerned, they don't exist.
Gerrit There's one God. The reason why the Jews took up stones to stone him is because Jesus was asserting that he was in fact that God. And so that to them was blasphemy. Now, of course, he really was. They just assumed, they thought it was blasphemy. So if the most fundamental thing about Jewish worship in Jesus' time is that there's only one God, and again, that's a big deal because everyone around them is worshiping all kinds of gods, right? And in fact, most people believe that every single locale has its own local gods and minor gods and bigger gods, and you go all the way up to Jupiter and all the way down to a more minor god that's over this certain stream. But the gods are plentiful and they are many and they are everywhere and they control everything. And as far as Judaism is concerned, they don't exist.
Gerrit And that made Jews entirely unique in the ancient world, that they weren't just saying that we think, you know, Yahweh is superior to Jupiter. They were saying Jupiter doesn't exist. I know that you are saying he exists, but he doesn't. And so that meant that there was a flashpoint immediately in early Christianity. The flashpoint was every single person who became a Christian left what was a pantheistic religion. Look, if I grow up in Athens, and I grew up worshipping Athena, you know, just probably, right? If you're in Athens, you're going to worship Athena. And I grew up worshipping Athena, and I move to Rome. Well, I'm still going to put a little shrine up to Athena, right?
Gerrit And that made Jews entirely unique in the ancient world, that they weren't just saying that we think, you know, Yahweh is superior to Jupiter. They were saying Jupiter doesn't exist. I know that you are saying he exists, but he doesn't. And so that meant that there was a flashpoint immediately in early Christianity. The flashpoint was every single person who became a Christian left what was a pantheistic religion. Look, if I grow up in Athens, and I grew up worshipping Athena, you know, just probably, right? If you're in Athens, you're going to worship Athena. And I grew up worshipping Athena, and I move to Rome. Well, I'm still going to put a little shrine up to Athena, right?
Gerrit I'm still going to worship Athena.
Gerrit I'm still going to worship Athena.
Richard Be rude not to.
Richard Be rude not to.
Gerrit But while I'm in Rome, I'm also going to sacrifice to the emperor, who's now proclaimed a god, and I'm also going to sacrifice to Jupiter, the head of the Roman gods.
Gerrit But while I'm in Rome, I'm also going to sacrifice to the emperor, who's now proclaimed a god, and I'm also going to sacrifice to Jupiter, the head of the Roman gods.
Richard When in Rome?
Richard When in Rome?
Gerrit When in Rome, sacrifice to the gods, blasphemously, as you should. I think that's right. When in Rome, where's a goat that you can sacrifice? So what that means is that me beginning to worship Jupiter in no way hurts my worship of Athena. I mean, I guess it might on the margins. Maybe I only sacrifice four goats to Athena every other month rather than six, because I only have so many goats. I mean, how many goats can a man have to sacrifice? It sounds kind of like a Peter, Paul and Mary song, perhaps. How many goats? But the reality is only on the margins is pagan worship actually affected, because only on the margins am I not worshiping Athena as much as I used to be.
Gerrit When in Rome, sacrifice to the gods, blasphemously, as you should. I think that's right. When in Rome, where's a goat that you can sacrifice? So what that means is that me beginning to worship Jupiter in no way hurts my worship of Athena. I mean, I guess it might on the margins. Maybe I only sacrifice four goats to Athena every other month rather than six, because I only have so many goats. I mean, how many goats can a man have to sacrifice? It sounds kind of like a Peter, Paul and Mary song, perhaps. How many goats? But the reality is only on the margins is pagan worship actually affected, because only on the margins am I not worshiping Athena as much as I used to be.
Gerrit But really, I've just kind of expanded my worship, right? I'm worshiping more things than I used to, not that I'm worshiping less. Every person who becomes a Christian, by definition of their Christianity, rejects all pagan worship, right? So when you become a Christian, you might be worshiping Jupiter, Athena and Hermes all at once, and all of a sudden, you aren't worshiping any of them anymore. You're only worshiping Jesus. This means that as Christianity spreads throughout the early Roman Empire, every person who becomes a Christian means there is one more person who is not worshiping any of the pagan gods at all. And that's just not true for any of the other pagan religions, right? If I'm a Spanish pagan and I, you know, meet a Norseman somewhere and I start to worship Thor, that doesn't make me stop worshiping the validity of the local Spanish gods.
Gerrit But really, I've just kind of expanded my worship, right? I'm worshiping more things than I used to, not that I'm worshiping less. Every person who becomes a Christian, by definition of their Christianity, rejects all pagan worship, right? So when you become a Christian, you might be worshiping Jupiter, Athena and Hermes all at once, and all of a sudden, you aren't worshiping any of them anymore. You're only worshiping Jesus. This means that as Christianity spreads throughout the early Roman Empire, every person who becomes a Christian means there is one more person who is not worshiping any of the pagan gods at all. And that's just not true for any of the other pagan religions, right? If I'm a Spanish pagan and I, you know, meet a Norseman somewhere and I start to worship Thor, that doesn't make me stop worshiping the validity of the local Spanish gods.
Gerrit If I become a Christian, I'm not worshiping Thor anymore. So as Christianity spreads, it's not spreading because of some kind of giant decree. It's not spreading because there are copies of the King James Bible in circulation everywhere, right? What do you have? You have copies of letters that Paul wrote, and you have some of the Gospels that are in circulation, and then you also have other writings that are eventually in circulation that never make it into our Bible, things like the Gospel of Thomas, right? That's not going to make it in there. But what it means is that there's no unified understanding of what it means to be a Christian. And in the ancient world, just like in the world today, the questions you ask about God are directly tied to the culture that you come from. If you come from a culture that believes certain things, well, then your questions you have about God are going to surround those things.
Gerrit If I become a Christian, I'm not worshiping Thor anymore. So as Christianity spreads, it's not spreading because of some kind of giant decree. It's not spreading because there are copies of the King James Bible in circulation everywhere, right? What do you have? You have copies of letters that Paul wrote, and you have some of the Gospels that are in circulation, and then you also have other writings that are eventually in circulation that never make it into our Bible, things like the Gospel of Thomas, right? That's not going to make it in there. But what it means is that there's no unified understanding of what it means to be a Christian. And in the ancient world, just like in the world today, the questions you ask about God are directly tied to the culture that you come from. If you come from a culture that believes certain things, well, then your questions you have about God are going to surround those things.
Gerrit So for instance, if you come from a culture that prizes equality and fairness, your questions about God are going to be about what? Whether or not God is equal and fair. If you come from a culture that prizes the idea of justice, that everything has to be just, well, your questions about God are going to be, how is it that God is just? We don't often think about that when we think about the questions that we have about God, but the questions we have derive directly from our pre-existing beliefs. Otherwise, you wouldn't ask the question. You ask the question because it's relevant to you, and it's relevant to you because it's something that you believe. Anyways, as Christianity spreads, there are a lot of different ways people are trying to worship. Some people are trying to worship in ways that today we would see as heretical. Both us and the Catholics would see as heretical.
Gerrit So for instance, if you come from a culture that prizes equality and fairness, your questions about God are going to be about what? Whether or not God is equal and fair. If you come from a culture that prizes the idea of justice, that everything has to be just, well, your questions about God are going to be, how is it that God is just? We don't often think about that when we think about the questions that we have about God, but the questions we have derive directly from our pre-existing beliefs. Otherwise, you wouldn't ask the question. You ask the question because it's relevant to you, and it's relevant to you because it's something that you believe. Anyways, as Christianity spreads, there are a lot of different ways people are trying to worship. Some people are trying to worship in ways that today we would see as heretical. Both us and the Catholics would see as heretical.
Gerrit Why? Well, a lot of it stems from the nature of God and the nature of Jesus. If Jesus is God, Jesus is divine, if Jesus is Jehovah, then what does that mean? Well, I now have a problem because Jesus seems to be praying to someone named the Father, and also we're talking about the Holy Spirit. So if the most fundamental thing about Judaism, the religion of Jesus, is that there's only one God, and Jesus is proclaiming that He is God, but also the Father is God, and oh, by the way, also the Holy Spirit is God, well, there's a problem. There's a relational problem of how is it possible that Jesus is God and that God is God and the Holy Spirit is God, because that sounds like I said the word God three times.
Gerrit Why? Well, a lot of it stems from the nature of God and the nature of Jesus. If Jesus is God, Jesus is divine, if Jesus is Jehovah, then what does that mean? Well, I now have a problem because Jesus seems to be praying to someone named the Father, and also we're talking about the Holy Spirit. So if the most fundamental thing about Judaism, the religion of Jesus, is that there's only one God, and Jesus is proclaiming that He is God, but also the Father is God, and oh, by the way, also the Holy Spirit is God, well, there's a problem. There's a relational problem of how is it possible that Jesus is God and that God is God and the Holy Spirit is God, because that sounds like I said the word God three times.
Gerrit I actually said it much more than three times. So it sounds like there's three different people that are God, in which case I'm not really a monotheist anymore. There were lots of ways that people tried to deal with that controversy. One of the earliest attempts to deal with that controversy among, apparently, Jewish converts to Christianity was to simply deny that Jesus was actually God. I mean, the easiest way of getting around, how is it possible that Jesus is God and that God is God, is to simply say that Jesus isn't God. Obviously, God is God, right? God is God. That can't change. But does Jesus actually have to be God? Couldn't Jesus just be like...
Gerrit I actually said it much more than three times. So it sounds like there's three different people that are God, in which case I'm not really a monotheist anymore. There were lots of ways that people tried to deal with that controversy. One of the earliest attempts to deal with that controversy among, apparently, Jewish converts to Christianity was to simply deny that Jesus was actually God. I mean, the easiest way of getting around, how is it possible that Jesus is God and that God is God, is to simply say that Jesus isn't God. Obviously, God is God, right? God is God. That can't change. But does Jesus actually have to be God? Couldn't Jesus just be like...
Richard Super Moses.
Richard Super Moses.
Gerrit Like super Moses. Couldn't he be like Moses riding a Harley? Couldn't he just be Moses, who's just like even more powerful than Moses was? He has all the power of God on Earth given to him, but Moses was just a man. However powerful he was, he's just a man. That's one of the ways that some early Christians tried to deal with this controversy by simply saying, there is no controversy. God is God, and Jesus is the Messiah. But remember, most Jews didn't believe that the Messiah was going to be divine. They believed the Messiah was going to be a man who had the power of God, right? So Jesus was a mortal who had the power of God. They're not a very big sect of Christians because it's primarily Jewish Christians, those who have accepted that he's the Messiah, but they reject that he is divine.
Gerrit Like super Moses. Couldn't he be like Moses riding a Harley? Couldn't he just be Moses, who's just like even more powerful than Moses was? He has all the power of God on Earth given to him, but Moses was just a man. However powerful he was, he's just a man. That's one of the ways that some early Christians tried to deal with this controversy by simply saying, there is no controversy. God is God, and Jesus is the Messiah. But remember, most Jews didn't believe that the Messiah was going to be divine. They believed the Messiah was going to be a man who had the power of God, right? So Jesus was a mortal who had the power of God. They're not a very big sect of Christians because it's primarily Jewish Christians, those who have accepted that he's the Messiah, but they reject that he is divine.
Gerrit They reject that he is, in fact, Jehovah. On the other side of the spectrum, you have people who can negate this problem simply by talking about what it is that God even is, right? As a Latter-day Saint, you've always imagined in your head God being a person. That's just how you've always thought about it. God is a guy, right? You've thought about that, because you have this understanding of God as your father. For Christians, and especially early Christians, that's not really the case. God is. God is everywhere and nowhere all at once. God is all-powerful. God fills the expanse of the universe, but he's everywhere and nowhere all at the same time. God isn't a dude, right? God is an entity. God is. And so with that mentality, and certainly with a good mixture of Greek philosophical thought in there as well, some, especially Greek-affiliated Christians, argued for the other opposite side of that, that Jesus is simply a projection of God, right?
Gerrit They reject that he is, in fact, Jehovah. On the other side of the spectrum, you have people who can negate this problem simply by talking about what it is that God even is, right? As a Latter-day Saint, you've always imagined in your head God being a person. That's just how you've always thought about it. God is a guy, right? You've thought about that, because you have this understanding of God as your father. For Christians, and especially early Christians, that's not really the case. God is. God is everywhere and nowhere all at once. God is all-powerful. God fills the expanse of the universe, but he's everywhere and nowhere all at the same time. God isn't a dude, right? God is an entity. God is. And so with that mentality, and certainly with a good mixture of Greek philosophical thought in there as well, some, especially Greek-affiliated Christians, argued for the other opposite side of that, that Jesus is simply a projection of God, right?
Gerrit So God is is, and the person that you see walking around that you think is Jesus is really just a projection of God. That doesn't mean that there's two gods. It means that there's one god, and this is how he's projecting himself. This is how some early Christians tried to deal with it. Others tried to deal with it in an even more nuanced way. One of the problems with saying that Jesus is divine, that Jesus is God, of course, is, well, how did Jesus die? Because how do gods die? I mean, if the definition of God is God is immortal, and Jesus died, well, then that seems like we're hurting the definition a little bit. And so Docetus argued that Jesus had these two natures, right?
Gerrit So God is is, and the person that you see walking around that you think is Jesus is really just a projection of God. That doesn't mean that there's two gods. It means that there's one god, and this is how he's projecting himself. This is how some early Christians tried to deal with it. Others tried to deal with it in an even more nuanced way. One of the problems with saying that Jesus is divine, that Jesus is God, of course, is, well, how did Jesus die? Because how do gods die? I mean, if the definition of God is God is immortal, and Jesus died, well, then that seems like we're hurting the definition a little bit. And so Docetus argued that Jesus had these two natures, right?
Gerrit And that he didn't actually die because he never actually had a physical body. And so he just seemed like he did. Again, this is something we've talked about on a previous podcast, but there's a lot of conflicting ideas in these various groups. One of these ideas, ways of trying to deal with this, how can there be three gods, but actually only one god, but actually three gods, but actually one god, is they both actually stem from Egypt, which you're not generally thinking of Egypt yourself as a center of Christianity. But in the ancient Roman world, it was the center of Christianity. It was the center of many of the early Christian fathers. That's where origin was based out of. And there in Egypt were two thinkers who really are going to set the Roman world on fire, the Roman Christian world on fire.
Gerrit And that he didn't actually die because he never actually had a physical body. And so he just seemed like he did. Again, this is something we've talked about on a previous podcast, but there's a lot of conflicting ideas in these various groups. One of these ideas, ways of trying to deal with this, how can there be three gods, but actually only one god, but actually three gods, but actually one god, is they both actually stem from Egypt, which you're not generally thinking of Egypt yourself as a center of Christianity. But in the ancient Roman world, it was the center of Christianity. It was the center of many of the early Christian fathers. That's where origin was based out of. And there in Egypt were two thinkers who really are going to set the Roman world on fire, the Roman Christian world on fire.
Gerrit The first is a guy by the name of Arius. Arius is going to make the argument that even though Jesus is divine, we're still monotheists, don't worry, because the father is the father, and yes, Jesus is God, but God the Father made Jesus. So that means that in the beginning of time, there was just God, and then God at some point created time and space and also Jesus. Now Jesus has all the power of the Father, Jesus is absolutely divine, you can worship Jesus, but Arius is saying in a very distinct way, Jesus is not exactly equal to the Father. If he was exactly equal to the Father, well, then that would be a problem, because the Father has always existed. How, in fact, can Jesus be the only begotten Son of God? Arius is going to take that to mean, if he's begotten of God, well, what does begotten mean?
Gerrit The first is a guy by the name of Arius. Arius is going to make the argument that even though Jesus is divine, we're still monotheists, don't worry, because the father is the father, and yes, Jesus is God, but God the Father made Jesus. So that means that in the beginning of time, there was just God, and then God at some point created time and space and also Jesus. Now Jesus has all the power of the Father, Jesus is absolutely divine, you can worship Jesus, but Arius is saying in a very distinct way, Jesus is not exactly equal to the Father. If he was exactly equal to the Father, well, then that would be a problem, because the Father has always existed. How, in fact, can Jesus be the only begotten Son of God? Arius is going to take that to mean, if he's begotten of God, well, what does begotten mean?
Gerrit It means he comes from God. God had to have created him. That means though Jesus is divine, we're not polytheists, we're still monotheists, because however much power Jesus has, and look, Arius is going to be slandered in all kinds of ways by his enemies, that he doesn't believe that Jesus is divine, in all kinds of ways. That's certainly not what he actually believes. He absolutely believes in the worship of Jesus. He is just positing from a theory standpoint that Jesus is however infinitesimally different from the Father, he is different, because the Father created him. Now of course, the critics of Arius, you know, Arius was very popular. It was popular because it made sense. It made sense that if we were told that there was only one God, and now all of a sudden you're saying that Jesus is also God, oh, well that's because there is one God, and that God created this Jesus, and that Jesus is also divine, Jesus is that God's only begotten son.
Gerrit It means he comes from God. God had to have created him. That means though Jesus is divine, we're not polytheists, we're still monotheists, because however much power Jesus has, and look, Arius is going to be slandered in all kinds of ways by his enemies, that he doesn't believe that Jesus is divine, in all kinds of ways. That's certainly not what he actually believes. He absolutely believes in the worship of Jesus. He is just positing from a theory standpoint that Jesus is however infinitesimally different from the Father, he is different, because the Father created him. Now of course, the critics of Arius, you know, Arius was very popular. It was popular because it made sense. It made sense that if we were told that there was only one God, and now all of a sudden you're saying that Jesus is also God, oh, well that's because there is one God, and that God created this Jesus, and that Jesus is also divine, Jesus is that God's only begotten son.
Gerrit The idea that a God could have a son that is very, very, very powerful and partially mortal is a pretty popular idea in Roman and Greek circles, actually. If any of you have ever seen the movie Hercules...
Gerrit The idea that a God could have a son that is very, very, very powerful and partially mortal is a pretty popular idea in Roman and Greek circles, actually. If any of you have ever seen the movie Hercules...
Richard Yeah, the documentary.
Richard Yeah, the documentary.
Gerrit If you've seen the Disney documentary on Greek theology, known as Hercules, which is probably Danny DeVito's best role...
Gerrit If you've seen the Disney documentary on Greek theology, known as Hercules, which is probably Danny DeVito's best role...
Richard Oh, he's amazing in it.
Richard Oh, he's amazing in it.
Gerrit Yeah, I mean, he's...
Gerrit Yeah, I mean, he's...
Richard That and twins.
Richard That and twins.
Gerrit Yeah, I think that, twins, and... What else is he good in?
Gerrit Yeah, I think that, twins, and... What else is he good in?
Richard The second Batman...
Richard The second Batman...
Gerrit Oh, yeah, yeah...
Gerrit Oh, yeah, yeah...
Richard . is a penguin.
Richard . is a penguin.
Gerrit Yeah, he was a better penguin.
Gerrit Yeah, he was a better penguin.
Richard I love him as penguin.
Richard I love him as penguin.
Gerrit He was a good penguin, I think. Your thoughts, send us what you think Danny DeVito's best role was. I thought it was marrying Rhea Perlman. But...
Gerrit He was a good penguin, I think. Your thoughts, send us what you think Danny DeVito's best role was. I thought it was marrying Rhea Perlman. But...
Richard Those of you that guess that Gerrit would bring up Rhea Perlman around minute 36 or so, you win $10.
Richard Those of you that guess that Gerrit would bring up Rhea Perlman around minute 36 or so, you win $10.
Gerrit I don't know who sent those bets into you. Your degenerate gambling has gotten to levels that we need to talk to Brady, your bishop.
Gerrit I don't know who sent those bets into you. Your degenerate gambling has gotten to levels that we need to talk to Brady, your bishop.
Richard It's prop betting on Rhea Perlman mentions.
Richard It's prop betting on Rhea Perlman mentions.
Gerrit Yeah. You know the podcast has arrived when there are lines in Vegas about when we will mention certain things, and then you manipulate those lines?
Gerrit Yeah. You know the podcast has arrived when there are lines in Vegas about when we will mention certain things, and then you manipulate those lines?
Richard It is funny. There are times, from time to time, as we record these things, when one of us will say something that's completely unexpected, we have to pause it. We start laughing. Rhea Perlman just did that for me. I started laughing so hard.
Richard It is funny. There are times, from time to time, as we record these things, when one of us will say something that's completely unexpected, we have to pause it. We start laughing. Rhea Perlman just did that for me. I started laughing so hard.
Gerrit I don't know if you noticed that was a hard stop on the edit because Richard's face exploded. Apparently, that's not common knowledge. I can't just casually mention who he's married to.
Gerrit I don't know if you noticed that was a hard stop on the edit because Richard's face exploded. Apparently, that's not common knowledge. I can't just casually mention who he's married to.
Richard That was very well done.
Richard That was very well done.
Gerrit Back to the man god Hercules. But the whole point about that is Arius was presenting a solution that actually seemed quite practical. And in fact, many Christians in Europe adopted this Arianistic belief. And there are many areas of the empire, especially outside of the empire, as the Germanic tribes in what's today Germany and Poland, as they convert to Christianity outside of the empire, most of their Christian beliefs are going to be Arianistic in nature. In fact, one of the things that has to happen is that in later Christian centuries, they have to forcibly convert the Arianistic Christians to the proper form of Christianity. But that's a story for another day. So Arius and his views are spreading all throughout the Christian world, inside the empire as well as outside of the empire with other Christians.
Gerrit Back to the man god Hercules. But the whole point about that is Arius was presenting a solution that actually seemed quite practical. And in fact, many Christians in Europe adopted this Arianistic belief. And there are many areas of the empire, especially outside of the empire, as the Germanic tribes in what's today Germany and Poland, as they convert to Christianity outside of the empire, most of their Christian beliefs are going to be Arianistic in nature. In fact, one of the things that has to happen is that in later Christian centuries, they have to forcibly convert the Arianistic Christians to the proper form of Christianity. But that's a story for another day. So Arius and his views are spreading all throughout the Christian world, inside the empire as well as outside of the empire with other Christians.
Gerrit As I said, it has the draw to it that it actually seems to answer a lot of the questions because the circulating scriptures such as they are, look, no one has a Bible. The Bible doesn't exist yet. But the circulating gospels such as they are, right, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, and the Acts and the various letters of Paul seem to talk about the Father and the Son both being divine, but also being different people, right? Jesus is praying to the Father. Well, that seems to suggest that they are both divine, but they are also both, you know, different individuals. So I think Arianism has this draw that it is practical in nature, but it especially has a draw among people who don't see their being literally only one divine being as the most important part of belief.
Gerrit As I said, it has the draw to it that it actually seems to answer a lot of the questions because the circulating scriptures such as they are, look, no one has a Bible. The Bible doesn't exist yet. But the circulating gospels such as they are, right, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, and the Acts and the various letters of Paul seem to talk about the Father and the Son both being divine, but also being different people, right? Jesus is praying to the Father. Well, that seems to suggest that they are both divine, but they are also both, you know, different individuals. So I think Arianism has this draw that it is practical in nature, but it especially has a draw among people who don't see their being literally only one divine being as the most important part of belief.
Gerrit I think that's why outside of, you know, the Jewish parts of the Mediterranean, that's going to catch fire a little bit more. Well, in opposition to Arius, is going to arise another Egyptian Christian by the name of Athanasius. Now, if you ever see pictures of Arius, Arius will be demonstrated as like just, he will not be flattering, because he's deemed a heretic and he's terrible. If you see images of Athanasius, I mean, there's halos everywhere. There's halos, there's sunlight coming off of him, you know, every part of him is glowing. He's basically an angel. He's certainly sainted, you know. And Athanasius is going to argue against Arius for some of the primary reasons. No, Athanasius has a good argument, because in order for Arius' argument to work, that means God had to create Jesus. But if God created Jesus, then that means that there was a time that Jesus didn't exist.
Gerrit I think that's why outside of, you know, the Jewish parts of the Mediterranean, that's going to catch fire a little bit more. Well, in opposition to Arius, is going to arise another Egyptian Christian by the name of Athanasius. Now, if you ever see pictures of Arius, Arius will be demonstrated as like just, he will not be flattering, because he's deemed a heretic and he's terrible. If you see images of Athanasius, I mean, there's halos everywhere. There's halos, there's sunlight coming off of him, you know, every part of him is glowing. He's basically an angel. He's certainly sainted, you know. And Athanasius is going to argue against Arius for some of the primary reasons. No, Athanasius has a good argument, because in order for Arius' argument to work, that means God had to create Jesus. But if God created Jesus, then that means that there was a time that Jesus didn't exist.
Gerrit So if there was a time that Jesus didn't exist, how is it that Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega? How is it that Jesus, with John chapter 1, 1, right? In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and the Word was with God. Well, I guess not in the beginning, because Jesus wasn't there in the beginning, right? Some of the Christological problems that emanated from Arius' arguments, Athanasius is going to attack very directly. Athanasius is saying that Jesus is not, sorry, Arius is saying, this is what Athanasius would say, that Jesus is not actually God, not God the same way God is God, because God created him. And so Athanasius is going to be able to hammer that over and over and over. And Athanasius is going to make the argument that when an Arius says, well, wait a minute, if Jesus is begotten of God, well, then that means that God created him.
Gerrit So if there was a time that Jesus didn't exist, how is it that Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega? How is it that Jesus, with John chapter 1, 1, right? In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and the Word was with God. Well, I guess not in the beginning, because Jesus wasn't there in the beginning, right? Some of the Christological problems that emanated from Arius' arguments, Athanasius is going to attack very directly. Athanasius is saying that Jesus is not, sorry, Arius is saying, this is what Athanasius would say, that Jesus is not actually God, not God the same way God is God, because God created him. And so Athanasius is going to be able to hammer that over and over and over. And Athanasius is going to make the argument that when an Arius says, well, wait a minute, if Jesus is begotten of God, well, then that means that God created him.
Gerrit He is begotten of God. Athanasius will say, not so fast, my friend. He is eternally begotten of God. He is always begotten of the Father. There was never a time that he wasn't begotten of the Father. And whereas Arius would have to argue that in some way, God and Jesus are not the same, Arius, his argument is going to be that Athanasius is going to say, no, they are the same substance. They are homo ousion, right? They are the same substance, meaning whatever God is, whatever that is, whatever makes up God, that's also Jesus. Now, this is going to start to get a little bit problematic, because, okay, so God is God, and Jesus is also God, and Jesus wasn't created, but Jesus is also God.
Gerrit He is begotten of God. Athanasius will say, not so fast, my friend. He is eternally begotten of God. He is always begotten of the Father. There was never a time that he wasn't begotten of the Father. And whereas Arius would have to argue that in some way, God and Jesus are not the same, Arius, his argument is going to be that Athanasius is going to say, no, they are the same substance. They are homo ousion, right? They are the same substance, meaning whatever God is, whatever that is, whatever makes up God, that's also Jesus. Now, this is going to start to get a little bit problematic, because, okay, so God is God, and Jesus is also God, and Jesus wasn't created, but Jesus is also God.
Gerrit Well, how is it that God is God, and Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God? And this is where we are going to start that development of that theology of the Trinity, which you'll notice the word Trinity isn't in the Bible, though there is a very enterprising scribe who will add a verse in the later middle centuries to the Bible to say that there are three that bear witness in heaven. That's not original to the text of the Bible, but even then the word Trinity is not in there. And that the Athanasian creed that will follow is one that is going to assert what to a Latter-day Saint sounds almost incomprehensible. It's going to assert that God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all one God, but they are also different persons, but they are also one God.
Gerrit Well, how is it that God is God, and Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God? And this is where we are going to start that development of that theology of the Trinity, which you'll notice the word Trinity isn't in the Bible, though there is a very enterprising scribe who will add a verse in the later middle centuries to the Bible to say that there are three that bear witness in heaven. That's not original to the text of the Bible, but even then the word Trinity is not in there. And that the Athanasian creed that will follow is one that is going to assert what to a Latter-day Saint sounds almost incomprehensible. It's going to assert that God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all one God, but they are also different persons, but they are also one God.
Gerrit So if someone were to say, well, then it sounds like, okay, one, God the Father, two, Jesus, I'm holding up fingers that you can't see, three, the Holy Spirit, well, that's three gods. No, no, no. They're all three persons, but they're all one God. Again, this goes back to the fact that as Latter-day Saint, we can only think of God in anthropomorphic terms. God is a person. They don't have to think of God that way. God is. So who can determine, who can define the limits of what God actually is? Just because God doesn't fit the role of what you think God is doesn't mean that that's not what God is. Of course, you can't comprehend God. This is going to lead to a dispute in the Empire. And the Johnny-come-lately Emperor, Constantine, has seen a great deal of civil war in his time as he's both coming to power as emperor, but also as an emperor.
Gerrit So if someone were to say, well, then it sounds like, okay, one, God the Father, two, Jesus, I'm holding up fingers that you can't see, three, the Holy Spirit, well, that's three gods. No, no, no. They're all three persons, but they're all one God. Again, this goes back to the fact that as Latter-day Saint, we can only think of God in anthropomorphic terms. God is a person. They don't have to think of God that way. God is. So who can determine, who can define the limits of what God actually is? Just because God doesn't fit the role of what you think God is doesn't mean that that's not what God is. Of course, you can't comprehend God. This is going to lead to a dispute in the Empire. And the Johnny-come-lately Emperor, Constantine, has seen a great deal of civil war in his time as he's both coming to power as emperor, but also as an emperor.
Gerrit The Empire is very unstable. It's very broad. It's very large. It had already been divided into two separate halves, an eastern half and a western half. And, I mean, the Roman Empire is this vast, 50 million person conglomeration of thousands of different dialects and cultures and tribes, various kingdoms. They are united by Roman law. But they are honestly not united by a whole lot else. They are united by the fact that there is a united commerce throughout the Empire. They all benefit from the Pax Romana that people talk about the time period following Augustine. But, you know, there is not a whole lot that makes a Gaul from, you know, Brittany, you know, relate to a Slav from Illyricum. There's not a whole lot that makes a, you know, a Carthaginian from what is today Tunis relate to someone who is a Greek from Athens.
Gerrit The Empire is very unstable. It's very broad. It's very large. It had already been divided into two separate halves, an eastern half and a western half. And, I mean, the Roman Empire is this vast, 50 million person conglomeration of thousands of different dialects and cultures and tribes, various kingdoms. They are united by Roman law. But they are honestly not united by a whole lot else. They are united by the fact that there is a united commerce throughout the Empire. They all benefit from the Pax Romana that people talk about the time period following Augustine. But, you know, there is not a whole lot that makes a Gaul from, you know, Brittany, you know, relate to a Slav from Illyricum. There's not a whole lot that makes a, you know, a Carthaginian from what is today Tunis relate to someone who is a Greek from Athens.
Gerrit The thing that's unifying among them is simply the Roman government itself. Now, not to get too political, and I obviously just by saying that, I have invited all kinds of political hate mail. I already receive a considerable amount, and now we're going for the gusto. In some ways, and I please don't take this analogy any further than what I'm trying to say, in some ways, the Roman Empire was a little bit like the United States in that regard. The United States is a mixture of many different cultures, right? Sure, there were early English culture that was here, but there was also early Scotch-Irish Presbyterian culture that was here, and there was also early Germanic culture that was here, and my people, the Dutch, since you English stole New Amsterdam from us, also were part of the people that were here.
Gerrit The thing that's unifying among them is simply the Roman government itself. Now, not to get too political, and I obviously just by saying that, I have invited all kinds of political hate mail. I already receive a considerable amount, and now we're going for the gusto. In some ways, and I please don't take this analogy any further than what I'm trying to say, in some ways, the Roman Empire was a little bit like the United States in that regard. The United States is a mixture of many different cultures, right? Sure, there were early English culture that was here, but there was also early Scotch-Irish Presbyterian culture that was here, and there was also early Germanic culture that was here, and my people, the Dutch, since you English stole New Amsterdam from us, also were part of the people that were here.
Gerrit There was a lot of different cultures and religions that made up the new American colonies, and that would make up the new United States of America. I'm not saying there wasn't a dominant culture. Of course, there was. But you didn't have the same thing that you had in, say, a place that was more universal in culture, like England or France, where the people who live in France are French. That's very similar. It's a very simple way to describe it. Well, who lives with French people there? In America, you had German immigrants, you had Italians, you had Spanish, you had English, you had Scotch-Irish Presbyterians, you had all kinds of different people. The unifying idea for them, the unifying American culture then couldn't be any particular religion.
Gerrit There was a lot of different cultures and religions that made up the new American colonies, and that would make up the new United States of America. I'm not saying there wasn't a dominant culture. Of course, there was. But you didn't have the same thing that you had in, say, a place that was more universal in culture, like England or France, where the people who live in France are French. That's very similar. It's a very simple way to describe it. Well, who lives with French people there? In America, you had German immigrants, you had Italians, you had Spanish, you had English, you had Scotch-Irish Presbyterians, you had all kinds of different people. The unifying idea for them, the unifying American culture then couldn't be any particular religion.
Gerrit There was some unification by the fact that everyone was going to eventually speak English, so English is a unifying factor, but a lot of people weren't speaking it in the early republic. But the law is the unifying factor, right? The Constitution becomes almost enshrined as holy by early Americans. The legal system, the governance, is the culture. That's not the same in many other places. In many other places, the culture is the culture, and the governance grows out of that culture. In America, you have this clash of cultures, this collision of many different cultures, and it's a law, it's a governing document that tries to create, I'm not even arguing that it did create, but tries to create a cohesive culture. The Roman Empire is a little bit similar, in the sense that, as it has spread everywhere, it has incorporated. Now, it's not through immigration, it's through their own conquests.
Gerrit There was some unification by the fact that everyone was going to eventually speak English, so English is a unifying factor, but a lot of people weren't speaking it in the early republic. But the law is the unifying factor, right? The Constitution becomes almost enshrined as holy by early Americans. The legal system, the governance, is the culture. That's not the same in many other places. In many other places, the culture is the culture, and the governance grows out of that culture. In America, you have this clash of cultures, this collision of many different cultures, and it's a law, it's a governing document that tries to create, I'm not even arguing that it did create, but tries to create a cohesive culture. The Roman Empire is a little bit similar, in the sense that, as it has spread everywhere, it has incorporated. Now, it's not through immigration, it's through their own conquests.
Gerrit I guess maybe that is similar to the United States, if you happen to live in any part that used to be Mexico and or anywhere that Native Americans owned, which was everywhere. You have this government that's trying to really control, as governments do, to maintain order millions of different people in all different types of religions, of cultures, of languages. And I think that Constantine sees a real opportunity here. Now, his predecessor, Diocletian, is not viewed very fondly in Christian circles. Why is that, Richard?
Gerrit I guess maybe that is similar to the United States, if you happen to live in any part that used to be Mexico and or anywhere that Native Americans owned, which was everywhere. You have this government that's trying to really control, as governments do, to maintain order millions of different people in all different types of religions, of cultures, of languages. And I think that Constantine sees a real opportunity here. Now, his predecessor, Diocletian, is not viewed very fondly in Christian circles. Why is that, Richard?
Richard He tried to murder all of them.
Richard He tried to murder all of them.
Gerrit Well, there are multiple state sponsors. So there's local persecution of Christians in the early Roman Empire. When Paul is first beaten and dragged down steps, that's not the Roman emperor saying, you know what, go beat up Paul. Let's see what he has to say about it. I'm sure if it was Nero, he would have said that. But it's more local persecution. In some ways, the early persecution of Christians mirrors the early persecution of Latter-day Saints. The earliest persecution of Latter-day Saints was not from the government of the United States. Why? Because there were like four of us and nobody cared. Sorry, six. The reality is, no one even knew that we existed on a national level. But if you happen to be a resident of Colesville, New York, and a hundred people in the area suddenly all become these crazy Mormons, well, that does affect you, and that will lead to persecution.
Gerrit Well, there are multiple state sponsors. So there's local persecution of Christians in the early Roman Empire. When Paul is first beaten and dragged down steps, that's not the Roman emperor saying, you know what, go beat up Paul. Let's see what he has to say about it. I'm sure if it was Nero, he would have said that. But it's more local persecution. In some ways, the early persecution of Christians mirrors the early persecution of Latter-day Saints. The earliest persecution of Latter-day Saints was not from the government of the United States. Why? Because there were like four of us and nobody cared. Sorry, six. The reality is, no one even knew that we existed on a national level. But if you happen to be a resident of Colesville, New York, and a hundred people in the area suddenly all become these crazy Mormons, well, that does affect you, and that will lead to persecution.
Gerrit So the earliest persecution of Latter-day Saints is on a local level. It's there in Colesville, it's there in Palmyra, it's especially there and growing in Kirtland as more members grow, then you get even more localized persecution. And we move from localized, you know, city and township. Eh? Township? Eh? Did anyone have money on that?
Gerrit So the earliest persecution of Latter-day Saints is on a local level. It's there in Colesville, it's there in Palmyra, it's especially there and growing in Kirtland as more members grow, then you get even more localized persecution. And we move from localized, you know, city and township. Eh? Township? Eh? Did anyone have money on that?
Richard Lots of people did. Yeah, the house lost.
Richard Lots of people did. Yeah, the house lost.
Gerrit Wow, we've got to stop doing that because I have a sneaky suspicion that we are the house. That it will move from this kind of local persecution to state-sponsored persecution, right? The state of Missouri is going to order an extermination order in 1838. Now, the federal government still isn't a part of that. And you actually see something similar in the early Christian church. At first, it's very localized. Why? Because there aren't very many Christians, and the only people who care about them are people where there's Christians where they're at. Then they start to care about them on the provincial level. A governor of Pontus is going to write and say, Excuse me, what do I do with these Christians? And then it's going to expand to the national or the empire-wide level. When you finally have the United States government taking a stand against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and passing laws specifically targeting Mormons and what they believe, similarly you're going to have in the Roman Empire.
Gerrit Wow, we've got to stop doing that because I have a sneaky suspicion that we are the house. That it will move from this kind of local persecution to state-sponsored persecution, right? The state of Missouri is going to order an extermination order in 1838. Now, the federal government still isn't a part of that. And you actually see something similar in the early Christian church. At first, it's very localized. Why? Because there aren't very many Christians, and the only people who care about them are people where there's Christians where they're at. Then they start to care about them on the provincial level. A governor of Pontus is going to write and say, Excuse me, what do I do with these Christians? And then it's going to expand to the national or the empire-wide level. When you finally have the United States government taking a stand against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and passing laws specifically targeting Mormons and what they believe, similarly you're going to have in the Roman Empire.
Gerrit It starts very locally, then it moves to a wider level, but as Christianity continues to grow, eventually it's going to be taken up by emperors themselves, like Marcus Aurelius that we all seem to love because of the movie Gladiator, but they conveniently leave out how many Christians Marcus Aurelius has killed.
Gerrit It starts very locally, then it moves to a wider level, but as Christianity continues to grow, eventually it's going to be taken up by emperors themselves, like Marcus Aurelius that we all seem to love because of the movie Gladiator, but they conveniently leave out how many Christians Marcus Aurelius has killed.
Richard So, we did some research prior to the episode, and in about 250 AD, you're looking at about 600,000 to 700,000 Christians in the Roman Empire.
Richard So, we did some research prior to the episode, and in about 250 AD, you're looking at about 600,000 to 700,000 Christians in the Roman Empire.
Gerrit Of 45 million.
Gerrit Of 45 million.
Richard That's right. And by about 312-ish, during Constantine's era. That's right. You're at 3.5 to 4 million. It's a 6 to 7X increase in Christians in 62 years.
Richard That's right. And by about 312-ish, during Constantine's era. That's right. You're at 3.5 to 4 million. It's a 6 to 7X increase in Christians in 62 years.
Gerrit So, you don't just have Christians growing. You have Christians growing exponentially, essentially, at this point. Within 100 years, it's easy to see how they're going to completely dominate the empire. And again, as I talked about at the beginning, every person who becomes a Christian means that person and their whole family is now no longer going to be a pagan. Well, Diocletian, the emperor preceding Constantine, really undertakes the most extensive state repression of Christians that takes place in the Roman Empire. He can't burn his Christians fast enough. There are lions that are still full today from the people Diocletian is throwing in. And when Diocletian's time ends, there are still Christians, and Christianity continued to grow. So historians are divided on whether or not Constantine had a true conversion to Christianity, and just one day decided, you know what?
Gerrit So, you don't just have Christians growing. You have Christians growing exponentially, essentially, at this point. Within 100 years, it's easy to see how they're going to completely dominate the empire. And again, as I talked about at the beginning, every person who becomes a Christian means that person and their whole family is now no longer going to be a pagan. Well, Diocletian, the emperor preceding Constantine, really undertakes the most extensive state repression of Christians that takes place in the Roman Empire. He can't burn his Christians fast enough. There are lions that are still full today from the people Diocletian is throwing in. And when Diocletian's time ends, there are still Christians, and Christianity continued to grow. So historians are divided on whether or not Constantine had a true conversion to Christianity, and just one day decided, you know what?
Gerrit I just love the story of this guy, Jesus.
Gerrit I just love the story of this guy, Jesus.
Richard So first of all, I know as you listen, you're like, oh my gosh, these guys. First of all, they sound so handsome. Second of all, I bet they're so much fun to hang out with. The answer is that...
Richard So first of all, I know as you listen, you're like, oh my gosh, these guys. First of all, they sound so handsome. Second of all, I bet they're so much fun to hang out with. The answer is that...
Gerrit Neither one of those is true.
Gerrit Neither one of those is true.
Richard That's right. So I was listening to a lecture series by...
Richard That's right. So I was listening to a lecture series by...
Gerrit By not me.
Gerrit By not me.
Richard Of course. Yeah, it was a good one. It was by William R. Cook, and it was on the history. It's like this 15-hour lecture series on the history of the Catholic Church. And so in that lecture series, one of the points that Professor Cook makes is that, you know, many people say that Constantine wasn't a true believer of Christianity because he wasn't baptized until the end of his life on his deathbed. And the argument that Cook makes is, well, that, you know, he was concerned. In early Christianity, you get one shot in terms of baptism. Repentance isn't really worked out as well in the church like it is later. And so, you know, he knew as the emperor he would be doing lots of things that would not be necessarily a job.
Richard Of course. Yeah, it was a good one. It was by William R. Cook, and it was on the history. It's like this 15-hour lecture series on the history of the Catholic Church. And so in that lecture series, one of the points that Professor Cook makes is that, you know, many people say that Constantine wasn't a true believer of Christianity because he wasn't baptized until the end of his life on his deathbed. And the argument that Cook makes is, well, that, you know, he was concerned. In early Christianity, you get one shot in terms of baptism. Repentance isn't really worked out as well in the church like it is later. And so, you know, he knew as the emperor he would be doing lots of things that would not be necessarily a job.
Gerrit You're really selling this well. He was so Christian that he knew he was going to be doing all kinds of un-Christian things. So he better wait on it.
Gerrit You're really selling this well. He was so Christian that he knew he was going to be doing all kinds of un-Christian things. So he better wait on it.
Richard It's the Jim Gaffigan line. Hurry up, I got some sinning to do.
Richard It's the Jim Gaffigan line. Hurry up, I got some sinning to do.
Gerrit Yeah, I got some sinning to do.
Gerrit Yeah, I got some sinning to do.
Richard So anyway, so I, you know, tell Gerrit this and then Gerrit just, you know, he claims I'm caping up for Constantine and then tells me Constantine's a terrible person.
Richard So anyway, so I, you know, tell Gerrit this and then Gerrit just, you know, he claims I'm caping up for Constantine and then tells me Constantine's a terrible person.
Gerrit Yeah, and a murderer.
Gerrit Yeah, and a murderer.
Richard You know?
Gerrit Yeah, and after he had his Christian conversion experience, murdered his wife and his son, but I'm sure he's an amazing guy. I'm sure he's just waiting for it. You know what? Save that baptism until I finish killing her, and then I'll get back with you.
Richard You know?
Gerrit Yeah, and after he had his Christian conversion experience, murdered his wife and his son, but I'm sure he's an amazing guy. I'm sure he's just waiting for it. You know what? Save that baptism until I finish killing her, and then I'll get back with you.
Richard So we've reached kind of the end here. So maybe the cliffhanger is that you talk about how Constantine tries to resolve this. Yes.
Richard So we've reached kind of the end here. So maybe the cliffhanger is that you talk about how Constantine tries to resolve this. Yes.
Gerrit Between Arianism and Athanasianism.
Gerrit Between Arianism and Athanasianism.
Richard Boy, what a tease.
Richard Boy, what a tease.
Gerrit Yeah. If nothing brings you back to this podcast, like I need to find out who wins between Arianism and Athanasianism. And weren't we talking about how Mormons were Christian? I don't think we are anymore.
Gerrit Yeah. If nothing brings you back to this podcast, like I need to find out who wins between Arianism and Athanasianism. And weren't we talking about how Mormons were Christian? I don't think we are anymore.
Richard Oh, we stopped doing that about 45 minutes ago.
Richard Oh, we stopped doing that about 45 minutes ago.
Gerrit I feel like one of the themes of the podcast, answering questions you never knew you had, is also starting to answer questions that you never wanted answered and then never actually answering them.
Gerrit I feel like one of the themes of the podcast, answering questions you never knew you had, is also starting to answer questions that you never wanted answered and then never actually answering them.
Richard And if you've hated this podcast, you are really going to love our premium episodes that we're going to be launching in the new year as we talk about American history, additional things of the church history, but in some sort of chronological order.
Richard And if you've hated this podcast, you are really going to love our premium episodes that we're going to be launching in the new year as we talk about American history, additional things of the church history, but in some sort of chronological order.
Gerrit You also have me so worked up over Constantine, we'll probably spend some time on Roman history just to talk about what a terrible person he is.
Gerrit You also have me so worked up over Constantine, we'll probably spend some time on Roman history just to talk about what a terrible person he is.
Richard Absolutely, and I continue to push the idea of the podcast Crinkling Leaves, where we talk about church sites and provide poor man's Rick Steves of all the different church sites.
Richard Absolutely, and I continue to push the idea of the podcast Crinkling Leaves, where we talk about church sites and provide poor man's Rick Steves of all the different church sites.
Gerrit We understand that not everyone will be able to sign up for the premium content, but we are really grateful for the people who do. Like I said, I get a lot of messages and emails from people saying, hey, why don't you start a Patreon account so that we can donate money to help defray the costs? Hey, what's some way that I could help? And there's just so many good people. And so that's why we decided, well, what if we create some premium content, especially surrounding just American history and specifically church sites, things like that, that people might be willing to subscribe to, and that would help defray the costs of everything we do, as well as still be able to maintain our free content. Obviously, we could try to run ads on here. I don't really want to do that, nor do I want to vet the ads. So Richard and I decided we would just invent fake ads that were not actually paid for. So I could be like, try not brown toothpaste.
Gerrit We understand that not everyone will be able to sign up for the premium content, but we are really grateful for the people who do. Like I said, I get a lot of messages and emails from people saying, hey, why don't you start a Patreon account so that we can donate money to help defray the costs? Hey, what's some way that I could help? And there's just so many good people. And so that's why we decided, well, what if we create some premium content, especially surrounding just American history and specifically church sites, things like that, that people might be willing to subscribe to, and that would help defray the costs of everything we do, as well as still be able to maintain our free content. Obviously, we could try to run ads on here. I don't really want to do that, nor do I want to vet the ads. So Richard and I decided we would just invent fake ads that were not actually paid for. So I could be like, try not brown toothpaste.
Gerrit If you've got brown teeth, start brushing with this, they're probably going to get whiter. I mean, I don't know.
Gerrit If you've got brown teeth, start brushing with this, they're probably going to get whiter. I mean, I don't know.
Richard Something like that. And I was going to go for, you know what? I like Jersey Mike's. Go to Jersey Mike's.
Richard Something like that. And I was going to go for, you know what? I like Jersey Mike's. Go to Jersey Mike's.
Gerrit Yeah, so Richard's going to just do unendorsed places that he actually likes.
Gerrit Yeah, so Richard's going to just do unendorsed places that he actually likes.
Richard Get a number five, tell them you'll want it Mike's way.
Richard Get a number five, tell them you'll want it Mike's way.
Gerrit So you're hoping that if you just keep mentioning them, and then you'll take the clip of this to them and say, please give us money retroactively for the advertisement that we made.
Gerrit So you're hoping that if you just keep mentioning them, and then you'll take the clip of this to them and say, please give us money retroactively for the advertisement that we made.
Richard I would happily be paid in kind.
Richard I would happily be paid in kind.
Gerrit You don't even want money. I can't host the podcast on your salami sandwich. I need to have money.
Gerrit You don't even want money. I can't host the podcast on your salami sandwich. I need to have money.
Richard So anyway, again, people have been very, very nice, and it's been absolutely wonderful. And rather than ask for donations, we decided to be more capitalist.
Richard So anyway, again, people have been very, very nice, and it's been absolutely wonderful. And rather than ask for donations, we decided to be more capitalist.
Gerrit To provide something. Yeah. And so as that rolls out in a couple weeks, we hope that people who are able are able to sign up for it, and they get some value out of that. If not, we plan on having the Standard of Truth free as long as we're here, which is probably, you wish it was a lot less than it is now.
Gerrit To provide something. Yeah. And so as that rolls out in a couple weeks, we hope that people who are able are able to sign up for it, and they get some value out of that. If not, we plan on having the Standard of Truth free as long as we're here, which is probably, you wish it was a lot less than it is now.
Richard It's true. And so it's a minimum five-year sign up.
Richard It's true. And so it's a minimum five-year sign up.
Gerrit You have to sign up for 10 years. We will expect a mortgage broker to be at the sign up. Anyway, thank you so much for listening. We'll talk more about this next week.
Gerrit You have to sign up for 10 years. We will expect a mortgage broker to be at the sign up. Anyway, thank you so much for listening. We'll talk more about this next week.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.
Quote board
Make a share card from any lineI feel like he's taking the Ari the elder because he's trying to say he's somewhat better.
I would hope if you are calling yourself a Latter-day Saint, fundamentally, you believe Jesus is the Christ.
You can call yourself a Christian all day long, right? And your dog can think that he's your limo driver, but that doesn't make him your limo driver.
He doesn't just have all the moves of Moses, plus he knows how to do the mashed potato on the side. He is actually God.
I mean, how many goats can a man have to sacrifice?
We don't often think about that when we think about the questions that we have about God, but the questions we have derive directly from our pre-existing beliefs.
Those of you that guess that Gerrit would bring up Rhea Perlman around minute 36 or so, you win $10.
Again, this goes back to the fact that as Latter-day Saint, we can only think of God in anthropomorphic terms.
Source shelf
13 sources cited on air · verses link to the scriptures, Joseph Smith’s documents to the Joseph Smith Papersletter
Email from "Ari the Elder"
Yes, there are indeed two Ari's in the same ward, and neither of us is Jewish.
The second Ari in the Missouri ward writes to say he's not the Ari who complained about pronunciation.
other
Lego Joseph Smith, post on Twitter
Mormons are not Christian is trending. This might sound offensive to us at first, but ask these people how they define Christian, and you'll be glad you're not that.
Responding to "Mormons are not Christian" trending.
other
Scott Adams (Latter-day Saint from Idaho), post on Twitter
as a Latter-day Saint, I believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and the Savior of the world.
His testimony in answer to the trend.
article
Gospel Topics Essay, "Are 'Mormons' Christian?"
Written because the question confuses members and is used against the Church.
scripture
John 8:56-58
before Abraham was, I am.
Jesus says "before Abraham was, I am," declaring he is Jehovah, and the leaders take up stones.
scripture
Exodus 3:14
I am that I am
God tells Moses at the burning bush, "I am that I am."
scripture
1 Nephi 11:16-17
knowest thou the condescension of God?
Nephi is asked about the condescension of God and admits he doesn't know the meaning of all things.
revelation
D&C 93
Gerrit recalls that Jesus passed through a veil and lost the power and knowledge he had.
book
Gospel of Thomas
Circulated among early Christians but never made it into the Bible.
scripture
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and the Word was with God.
Athanasius's argument: if the Father created Jesus, how was the Word with God in the beginning?
scripture
1 John 5:7 (the Johannine Comma)
A later scribe's addition about three that bear witness in heaven; even it doesn't use the word Trinity (verse identified, not cited on air).
record
Athanasian Creed
Asserts the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three persons but one God.
other
William R. Cook, lecture series on the history of the Catholic Church
Richard's source arguing Constantine delayed baptism because one baptism had to cover a lifetime.
Episode quiz
Pass to stamp your passportQuestion 1 of 7Score 0
What does Ari the Elder want everyone to know?
Fun with Numbers
This episode, counted from its transcript1:00:39long
8.4 minbefore the topic starts
13sources read or named
6scripture passages
1different years mentioned
1dollar amounts said
From 1838 to 1838
Every year mentioned in the episode. Tap one to jump to it.
Money said on air
Percentages said on air
Putting numbers to words
All 8,906 words of the automatic transcript, counted against a word list for each theme. It shows how much a theme comes up, not what was said about it. See the lists
What this episode talks about more than usual
- Mobs, jail and violence14 mentions, 1.9 times the show’s usual rate
- Government and law13 mentions, 1.8 times the show’s usual rate
- Money11 mentions, 1.7 times the show’s usual rate
Names said most
Joseph counts any Joseph.
Jesus Christ 109Nephi 5Joseph 4
Signature words
Said often here and in few other episodes.
essay 9penguin 4emperor 8unifying 5pagan 6trending 4
More from this episode
Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.
Claim check
What critics say, and what the episode foundIf you believe in Jesus, every Christian will agree you're a Christian.
The Trinity is spelled out in the Bible.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.
Take it to class
Ready to copy into a lesson or a textLatter-day Saints pray, testify and teach in the name of Jesus Christ. When someone says "you're not Christian," they usually mean something specific about how they define God, not whether you believe in Jesus.
"Before Abraham was, I am" was Jesus declaring he was Jehovah, the God of the Old Testament.
Nephi admitted, "I know that he loveth his children; nevertheless, I do not know the meaning of all things." That's a good place to start.
Early Christians argued for centuries about how Jesus could be God when there is only one God. The Trinity grew out of those debates.
Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.
Banter bin
The running jokes, for people who skip aheadSpoiler alert, we're notRichard's joke opening on whether Latter-day Saints are Christian (0:52, 0:56).
Ari the Elder and Ari the YoungerTwo Aris in one Missouri ward, neither Jewish, and a call to authority (1:16, 3:08).
Field Marshal LeDucRichard's latest title (1:16).
Riverside mission mythsGerrit keeps bringing up Richard's polygamy explanations from last week (6:29).
Becky wants to co-hostOnly if all they do is attack anti-Mormons; she loved the Willard Richards episode (7:09, 7:35).
Good answer!Nephi on Family Feud (18:31).
Super Moses on a HarleyOne early explanation of Jesus (28:55).
Danny DeVito and Rhea PerlmanThe Disney Hercules documentary, Twins, the Penguin, and Vegas lines on a Rhea Perlman mention (35:50, 36:29, 37:13).
TownshipsDid anyone have money on that? The house lost (51:05, 51:27).
Fake adsNot-brown toothpaste and a Jersey Mike's number five, Mike's way, for salami-based sponsorship (58:47, 59:02).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag
Your question could be next week’s episodeQuestions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
General ConferenceGeneral Conference talks that cite a scripture read in this episode.
In General Conference
Talks from the latest General Conference that cite a scripture this episode reads or names on airOctober 2026 General Conference · cites 1 Nephi 11:16–17The Sculpting of Our SoulsSister Tamara W. RuniaSister Runia shares the sudden death of her son Ryan and the lesson she drew from Joseph Smith in Liberty Jail: hard experiences can be for our good.October 2026 General Conference · cites D&C 93I Am a Child of GodElder Hutch U. FaleElder Fale teaches that every person is a beloved child of heavenly parents, illustrating God's unearned love by showing his children their baby pictures: they did nothing to earn their parents' love and can do nothing to lose it.October 2026 General Conference · cites Exodus 3:14Quick to Help, Slow to JudgeElder Paul H. SinclairElder Sinclair recalls a Primary boy who buttoned his sleeve to his lapel and got stuck, and the little girl who quietly freed him while he himself felt only irritation, a moment that taught him to be quick to help and slow to judge.
Summaries, themes and lessons for every talk are on What Did They Say?
Go deeperWhere to read more.
Go deeper
Deep dives the episode points towardThe Gospel Topics essay "Are 'Mormons' Christian?" in the Gospel Library (8:24).
Arius, Athanasius and the road to the Council of Nicaea, which the next episode picks up (33:20).
The growth of Christianity in the Roman Empire, from about 600,000 in 250 AD to millions by Constantine (53:03).
How the "I am" statements in the Gospel of John connect Jesus to Jehovah (13:52).
SOT Litner · S2E50.