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S2E51 · Are "Mormons" Christian? Part 2
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Standard of Truth · Season 2 · Episode 51 · 59:00

Are "Mormons" Christian? Part 2

Martin Luther became a monk after crying out to St. Anne in a thunderstorm, then led a movement that stopped praying to the saints, St. Anne included.

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The question ·
So, the question, are Mormons Christian, really going back to how the Christians got an idea of who Jesus actually was?
Richard

Recorded on the road with subway-tunnel audio, this Christmas episode opens with Joseph Smith's journal entry for Christmas Day 1835 and a review from a new listener in Minnesota. Then Richard and Gerrit return to whether Latter-day Saints are Christian. Gerrit reads the Nicene Creed, explains why "begotten, not made" was aimed at Arius, and shows why Christianity, unlike paganism, cares so much about believing the right things, with stops at aseity, modalism, patripassianism, the Immaculate Conception (Richard calls it the Immaculate Reception) and Luther's St. Anne irony. They land on Richard's summary: it's not just a different Jesus, it's a different us. Christians see people as created beings, while Joseph Smith taught that we have always existed.

Who comes upConstantineAriusAthanasiusR.C. SproulMarySaint AnneMartin LutherMike HuckabeeMitt RomneyLuciferJoseph Smith
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Gerrit Hi, just a little bit of a disclaimer on this episode and the next episode. We were traveling at the time that we recorded these, so we didn't have our high tech studio with all of the very expensive equipment and sound deadening devices that can help make us sound better than we are. So if you will just please excuse these next two podcasts, this one and the next one, they are going to have not the best audio quality. I'm pretty sure though that the content is still going to be just as bad.
Richard Actually, the content is pretty good. I think you'll especially like, well, you'll like this part two as well as part three of the, I don't know what we've decided to name these, Constantine something. I don't know why Mormons aren't Christians. Anyway, it sounds like we recorded it in a subway tunnel.
Gerrit Which is very similar to where we were. We was either not record them or, you know, you would miss a couple of episodes because we were traveling.
Richard So we do apologize, but hope you have a happy holidays and look forward to season three beginning in January.
Gerrit Yes.
Other Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, where we explore the early days of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and gain rare historical insights into how a young farm boy was able to establish a new church and grow it by way of visions, manifestations and miracles.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.
Richard Merry Christmas, Gerrit.
Gerrit It is the time of year. By the time this podcast drops, it'll be just before Christmas. I assume that by then, Amazon will have cut off all of our ability to purchase things. Credit cards will be maxed out, and well.
Richard Yes, the season of giving. And so we wanted to, a little bit before we jumped right into the Council of Nicaea, which, what says Christmas more than?
Gerrit Nothing says Christmas more than a discussion, an argument about the nature of Jesus.
Richard That's, yeah, pretty much it.
Gerrit It's basically an Advent calendar.
Richard So, but you wanted a little bit of a holiday church history.
Gerrit Sure. I mean, you know, there are not a ton of things that you can pull out of early church history that work very well for our Christmas traditions today. You know, Hallmark hadn't been invented yet, and, you know, the tradition of Santa Claus and things like that, that comes later in the 19th century. So, as much as we, you know, we want to watch, you know, watch Christmas Carol, and you'll notice that if you read the actual book, there's not a ton of like presents that are being discussed, right? It's more like, could we have food so we don't die? Which is, you know, again, if you have to choose for something on Christmas, not dying is always, it is always...
Richard It's a family tradition in the LeDoux family.
Gerrit To not die on Christmas? Yeah, I mean, in my family as well. We try to do that, but, so, it's over the course of the 19th century that Christmas starts to pick up this Dutch tradition of Sinterklaas. Just, I'm just a shameless plug for the Dutch because we're awesome. And so, by the time you get to the later 19th century, you will start to have things that will look more similar to us. This kind of, you know, presents in the morning and Santa coming at night. And, you know, they don't have credit cards yet, but it's coming. You get an account of the local store. You have that for sure. But you do have some, you know, it was still a holy day. It was a really special day all throughout Christianity. And so, you know, there's a few places where, you know, they do mention it. For instance, in Joseph's Journal, his entry in 1835, December 25th, 1835, At home all this day, and enjoyed myself with my family, it being Christmas Day, the only time I've had this privilege so satisfactorily in a long time.
Gerrit So you get this little entry of the fact that, I mean, always it was spending time with your family. That was still an important aspect of Christmas celebrations in the early 19th century. Interestingly, also that same day, Joseph seems to always hold the Christmas party. So for those of you who are saying, you know, why do we even hold Christmas parties? Joseph held a Christmas party. And the night before, Jonathan Crosby, he related that he actually showed up in, he came to Kirtland that evening, and knocks on the door, Christmas evening, and of course, Joseph's celebrating with friends, and Joseph took him in and let him stay there for the night. So that Christmas night, 1835. So there are some nice little nuggets in early church history. It's fun to hear how people celebrated it. Just remember, it's nothing like us.
Richard Join us next year when we talk about the Christmas of 1836.
Gerrit Yeah, I figure if we can slow roll Christmases, that will get us almost all the way. To polygamy in season 38. Well, we will never do polygamy. Our early four... No, we are going to break promises as quickly as we break down false ideologies of Christologies.
Richard What a perfect segue. Well, you did have one quick Facebook review you wanted to...
Gerrit Well, it was just a review of the podcast that we thought we'd share. First of all, I feel bad for this person, because they started just listening with the first Mormon Battalion episode, which I can only assume means there were, I don't know, 30 to 40 tangential off-topic jokes that meant nothing.
Richard They're not funny when you get it.
Gerrit Yeah, they're not funny if you've listened from the beginning. Can you imagine listening from the middle?
Richard Yeah.
Gerrit That's why we tell everybody, just go back and start over.
Richard That's right.
Gerrit And again, and again, and again, we've got to drive those numbers. Just drive them. Anyway, he said, Proving Gerrit Wrong. This was the title of his review, which, of course, cut my notice. Not because he proved me wrong, I've been proven wrong so, so many times, but he spelled my name wrong. And so, you know what? I mean, tip of the cap, you're on your way. It's, I found the podcast today and started listening to the first Mormon Battalion episode. Excellent information and fun discussion. But he made the claim that there were no listeners in Minnesota. I think this is when we were talking about the North Angle notch that was part of Canada, next to Canada. Yeah, yeah. And that's when we said, we don't have to worry about whether or not we're accurate because there's no listeners in Minnesota. He said, and we have one. He said, he made the claim that he has no listeners in Minnesota. I've just proved him wrong. You have a regular one now.
Gerrit Sorry, doctor. Very nice. I appreciate that. Their name is a disciple of Christ. So I'm not sure, you know, that's what they're...
Richard Very nice.
Gerrit Yeah. I mean, I can only assume that that means they follow the Stone Campbell Movement. And Alexander Campbell was an early church father.
Richard And that's the example of the kind of jokes that aren't funny when you understand their context.
Gerrit So they're not funny at the time. They're not funny later. Do they age, though? Do they eventually become funny? Yeah. So somewhere around season 38.
Richard That would be funny. The Campbellite joke.
Gerrit So if a man can't make an odd Alexander Campbell joke, what is a man?
Richard So we had the question. Well, it wasn't a question, actually. There was some goings on on the Twitters. And a couple of people that I follow that are, Lego Joseph Smith being among them is generally pretty funny. Some of the posts that he has. And there was some back and forth. There was trending, Our Mormon's Christian on the Twitterverse. And so we started that topic and that discussion last week. And we want to point you as well. We're going to have the link probably in all these episodes to the Gospel Topics Essay on Our Mormon's Christian, Mormons being in quotes. And the Church has done a very good job here with the Gospel Topics Essays and answering some of these more difficult topics, more controversial topics. And so, you know, what's the answer to that? I mean, kind of. They point to creeds, restored Christianity, and open canon is kind of the main issues that we have with kind of general mainline.
Gerrit Well, that Christians have with us.
Other That's what that's right.
Richard The general Christians have with us. And so that's, you know, that's generally the answer. But we'll take you back to 325 AD and we'll eventually get there.
Gerrit Yeah, we're playing the hits. And nothing says the oldies like Nicaea. Richard said, I believe we just tease the next episode by saying we'll talk about the Council of Nicaea, which is probably the only time in the history of this medium that someone has said, if you come back next week, we'll talk about the Council of Nicaea. If you don't come back, you'll never know.
Richard Well, we had talked about, you know, I believe I used the term caping up for Constantine. Gerrit called him a monster, only because he murdered his wife and one of his sons. He didn't murder all of his sons or all of his wives.
Gerrit You know what? And I failed to give him that credit.
Richard That's what I'm saying.
Gerrit I feel like you're right. You should always at least say, you know, what's really happening.
Richard Well, there is a great debate whether he was solely Christian for political reasons versus Christian as a true believer. And there are scholars on both sides of that argument. Gerrit certainly lines up on the other side where he was, Gerrit's a little more cynical to the beliefs of Constantine. Well, politicians generally, and yeah, it's a growing group, and it's growing significantly, and it's in his interest here to...
Gerrit At the very least, yeah, that's the thing. At the very least, it's certainly in his interest as a ruler of the Roman Empire to have a unified Christian theology. Whether or not everyone is a Christian, you can't have these Christians themselves, because again, pagans can believe whatever you want. If I worship Athena, it doesn't hurt the worship of Zeus. It doesn't matter. You know, Zeus is fine with it. Just throw a goat my way too, you know. So it doesn't actually matter who you worship. Pagan theology was about veneration. It was about practice. It was not about belief. You can hate Jupiter, but as long as you sacrifice that goat, Jupiter is fine with it. In Christianity, of course, what you think matters a ton. Not just how you worship. Certainly, how you worship does matter. But the idea in Christianity of heresy is really based upon what?
Gerrit It's someone teaching something that is false about Jesus or about God. That concept just doesn't really exist in the early Christian church. I mean, sorry, in the pagan church. Because, well, okay, so you think Jupiter does this. I don't think he does. It makes no difference. What matters is whether or not you venerate Jupiter, whether or not you sacrifice to him.
Richard So, the question, are Mormons Christian, really going back to how the Christians got an idea of who Jesus actually was?
Gerrit Right. And because they are going to define Mormonism, so-called, over and against what it is the standard Christian believes. Well, when do we get to that standard belief? And one of those starting points is this Arianistic Athanasius debate, which is at least attempted to be settled at the Council of Nice in 325, where they're going to come out with a statement that is going to, you know, spoiler alert, the Athanasians win. And Constantine and the bishops come down on the side of this Athanasian concept that God and Jesus are, and the Holy Spirit are all the same substance. That they're all whatever God is, Jesus is that, the Holy Ghost is that, and yet somehow they're not the same, but also the same. And so in one version of this Nicene Creed, I'll read part of this. We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of all things, visible and invisible.
Gerrit And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father, the only begotten, that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God, light of light, very God of very God. Now this is very key for the whole Arianistic controversy. Begotten, not made. Now I would guess that many people would actually kind of make those equivalents, right? Begotten and made are similar, they're equivalents. Well, they're making a very distinct difference. Jesus is not made by the Father. He's begotten of the Father. Being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made, both in heaven and in earth, who for us men and for our salvation came down and was incarnate and was made man. He suffered and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven. From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
Gerrit And in the Holy Ghost. But those who say, there was a time when he was not, again, that's a response to Arianism, and that he was not before he was made, Arianism, and that he was made out of nothing, Arianism, and that he is of another substance or essence, or the Son of God is created or changeable or alterable, they are condemned by the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. So really a whole part of it is this idea of whether or not Jesus was a created being. And we talked about this before, but it's important to understand that whenever a Christian, well, I guess not whenever a Christian, but whenever a Christian theologian uses the word creature. We use the term creature all the time, but without really, I mean, a lot of times it's like in a bad sci-fi movie, I guess, like, oh, there comes the creature. But that was bad sound effects.
Richard It was terrible.
Gerrit Well, I mean, it was a bad sci-fi movie.
Richard That's right. It was a perfect impression of a bad sci-fi movie.
Gerrit Yeah, which is what we aim to do. We're gonna try to transition this podcast to kind of a Mystery Science Theater 3000, where we'll just comment as we play.
Richard We did that for Youth Activity.
Gerrit How did it go over?
Richard It was actually very funny. We took all of the great videos from the 50s and 60s, and then we created kind of a Mystery Science Theater 3000.
Gerrit Did you, like, put up the comments from the youth on the board?
Richard No, that would have been better. We just had youth yell stuff out and make fun, and it was good times had by all.
Gerrit Ah, well, for those of you who tuned in to this podcast only looking for something to do with your young men and young women's group, that's what we're trying, we just try to cover all the bases. You tuned in looking for a nice seeing and understanding, you came away with something to do on mutual on Tuesday. So that's what we're looking for. Anyway, this concept about, it really is a question of what is Jesus, right? Is Jesus a being that is created? Whenever a Christian theologian uses the word creature, they mean, it means literally creature, something that is created. That's why you might not think of angels as creatures, but they are, right? You're thinking of something from the Black Lagoon every time I say creature. But anything that is created is a creature. So therefore, everything is a creature. And the point theologically is to say, God is not a creature.
Gerrit God was not created. God has always been. That's the Aseity of God. And Athanasius and the Nicenean Creator are going to say that God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all one God. They're all the same. Whatever God is, they're all that. That makes it sound like we're talking about an 80s movie. 90s, I guess.
Richard 90s. She's all that. Late 90s.
Gerrit Yeah, and a bag of chips. But that you're all that. And most importantly, they are not created. The reason why that phraseology is in there is because it's responding to a very, a very direct response to the fact that so many Christians in the early Roman Empire have Arianistic tendencies. Now again, you can see why. Because Arianism allows for a much more natural understanding of God, right? If there's a God that Jesus is praying to, then that seems like they're different people. And if there is a God and his son is Jesus, well, then that God must somehow be more powerful than him, right? If it's his son, then Jesus is giving all the glory to the father. So therefore, the father must deserve it. And so it does seem that in the more rural portions of the Roman Empire, and Europe that wasn't part of the Roman Empire, this Arianistic belief is just a more natural belief system, because you're dealing with two beings.
Gerrit And remember, they were all just pagans who believed in many gods. Their big issue is not the same issue that the early Christian Jews had. And that is, how is it possible that Jesus can be God and God can be God? If you're a pagan that was worshipping different kinds of river gods in northern Germany, and you convert to Christianity, you don't have a cultural belief that there can only be one God. And so Arianism really, it does fit better in that mold.
Richard I was going to say, so the idea of this begotten but not made, and the aseity of God, in that he can't make us like him because the thing that he is, is not creative.
Gerrit That's a very important point that we'll get to at maybe part seven of this. But it is good to know that this is where this beginning is. One of the reasons why your Christian friends, if they, now, first of all, the reality is many of your Christian friends don't know why they don't think you're a Christian. They're spouting off talking points or something like that. But if you're having a real theological discussion with, you know, maybe a Christian pastor who understands what he believes and what you believe, one of the things that we will eventually get to is Latter-day Saints have a very high view of humanity. Now, that doesn't mean we don't believe people are sinners and, you know, there's all kinds of just evil in this world. But fundamentally, Latter-day Saints don't just think that Jesus is a different type of being than Christians believe.
Gerrit The biggest problem is that fundamentally, Latter-day Saints believe that they are all a different type of being than Christians think they are, right? And it's interesting, as you listen to pastors, like the great Calvinist theologian, RC. Sproul, if you listen to what he has to say, the sovereignty of God, the all-powerfulness of God, the complete uniqueness of God is the most important part. Everything starts and end with, God is all-powerful. So when you can't understand something that God does, it's a you problem, cause God's all-powerful. When you say, well, I don't know how that's good, that's a you problem, because God's all-powerful. Why don't, you know, why do you think God's all-powerful? The answer to literally everything is God's all-powerful, right? Part of the fact that God's all-powerful is this, what we've talked about before, this idea of aseity.
Gerrit The aseity of God is this description of God being all-powerful. Aseity is that God has always existed and that he self-exists. No one made God God. God is not a creature. God has always existed. In fact, God created everything out of nothing. That is a fundamental, standard Christian belief. And so, tied to that then, Jesus cannot be created, because if Jesus is God, then if you say Jesus is created, what does that mean? It means there was a time that Jesus didn't exist.
Richard And that would make him in some way lower than or not equal to God.
Gerrit He couldn't be. But as we flash forward to what we'll talk about again at some point, but probably not, because we always forget what it is we're talking about. We end up just rambling on here. You turn the radio off, you turn it back on four or five months later, you remember why you stopped listening, and then that's it.
Richard Yeah, that's our brand.
Gerrit Yeah, our brand. Answering questions you never thought you had. Poorly. Also, not answering questions you never thought you had, but then started to have, but then gave up because you didn't get the answer. Standard of Truth podcast. Is it the right time to mention we're going to start a premium?
Richard We got Crinkling Leaves this week?
Gerrit No, we will not name it Crinkling.
Richard We got condemned to repeat it?
Gerrit If the word Crinkling Leaves appears anywhere on your premium, you will know that Richard has offed me, and he is, every time you hear me speak, it's just him cobbling together clips.
Richard Yeah, that's right. It's the perfect time. What better gift this Christmas season for something that's not yet available, but will be available in a couple of weeks? Some additional content. American, world history.
Gerrit Some more church history.
Richard Some more church history chronologically, so you can study it, follow it along. And then some church site stuff.
Gerrit It may end up that no one wants to listen to what we have to say now, let alone... Oh yeah. Yeah. But we don't really build business models. We build business failures. So we have a discussion about how could...
Richard Well, history professors are known for being just titans of industry.
Gerrit Yeah. Everyone who's ever met a history professor is like, I bet he's doing well.
Richard Did he sleep in that shirt?
Gerrit Yeah. How many elbow patches can you have on one suit?
Richard We're essentially creating the entire premium content for Tammy Thomas because she promised to pay for it.
Gerrit Right. Essentially, when she found out we thought about creating premium content, she sent us a Venmo to be the first subscriber, which we sent back because we didn't have the content ready. But we kept one cent. We did. We kept one cent so that we could say, Tammy, you're our first subscriber. If all of our listeners could be and like into Tammy, it would cause the powers. Yeah. I mean...
Richard It's a veronite quote.
Gerrit Well, she's the greatest ever. But although her husband is going to get us eaten by bears. Anyway, the concept of the difference between God and humanity is really at the heart of this entire discussion of whether or not Mormons are Christians. One... Although RC. Sproul and any Calvinist or any Christian theologian will spend all day, every day, explaining the absolute sovereignty of God, the absolute... God literally has all power. And not, you know, again, Latter-day Saints sometimes think that they... they think that God is all-powerful. And yet, I'll hear, you know, my students will say all the time, like, well, yeah, God has all power. He just, you know, there's just certain laws that even God has to follow. Which, by the way, they're right. But second of all, no, that is not what a Christian means when they say God is all-powerful. They don't mean that God is all-powerful, and, you know, but he just has to follow certain rules of the universe.
Gerrit Because what a Christian means is God created all of the rules of the universe, and, in fact, the universe. And so God can obviously create any kind of outcome that God wants to, whether or not. And yet, even with that absolute devotion to the absolute omnipity, omnipity? I just invented a new Christian term. Omnipotence. I took a seity, and I took omnipotence, and I married them together.
Richard You know, let's see if it takes off. I have a good feeling about it.
Gerrit Omnipity. From now on, you heard it here first, folks. If I see someone wearing a sweatshirt that they got for Christmas that says, Omnipity on it, there will be a copyright claim. I will find the lawyers, and we will get this going. But the omnipotence and the seity of God, even with that being first and foremost, RC. Sproul will say what? There is one thing that God cannot do. One thing. What is that, Richard?
Richard That's create something that's always existed.
Gerrit God can't make any other being exactly like him.
Richard So this is at the heart, then, when you have somebody that would cite Book of Mormon verse after Book of Mormon verse talking about... Because certainly, to the question, are Latter-day Saints Christian, a Latter-day Saint would say certainly.
Gerrit Right. Because they worship Jesus, they are praying and asking, they're asking God through the atonement of Jesus to forgive them of their sins, their singing praises to Jesus. There's Jesus all over their houses. All they think about is Jesus.
Richard Right.
Gerrit But to a Christian, you're not thinking about Jesus the right way.
Richard So even though you're using all the right words, you're saying all the right things.
Gerrit It goes all the way back to this early problem in Christianity, where the early problem of Christianity is Christianity demands that you believe the right things, not just that you do the right things, right? It is a problem to believe things that are false because this salvation is based on belief. Well then, what do you believe? And the idea being, well, if you believe the wrong thing, then you can't actually obtain this salvation. But it is very frustrating for a Latter-day Saint because they're saying, well, you don't get it. I keep saying, I believe Jesus saves me from my sins. But on the other side of that conversation, the Christian is thinking, yeah, but what do you even think Jesus is?
Richard That's exactly right.
Gerrit I believe that Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit are all the same God. And that Nicene belief, that Trinitarian belief, if you want to call it that, is it is not universal among Christianity, but it is pretty close to it. In fact, whenever you find people stating that certain Christian groups are outside of Christianity, it is because they mess with that Trinitarian theology. For instance, a Latter-day Saint might well know that Jehovah's Witnesses are not often included in the Christian tent. And again, if you talk to a Jehovah's Witness, they will tell you they believe in Jesus. And if you talk to another Christian, they'll say, I don't care what they say. What they say doesn't matter, because what they believe is so far afield that... And again, because they are believing in a separation between Jehovah, which they think is God the Father and Jesus, right?
Gerrit The Trinitarian creed is probably more summed up like this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in unity. So one of the problems that you start to have coming out of this idea that God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all one God. So we don't worship three Gods, they are all one God. Well, how are they one God then? I mean, how is it that God is God and Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God if in fact they are one God but they are three people? Well, are they really three people or are these just like different hats God wears? Right? Does God wear a Jesus hat when he comes down to earth? Because God is just an entity. Again, don't think of God as a person. God is an entity. So is the projection of God on earth, he puts a Jesus hat on and the next thing you know he's Jesus? Or when he's acting as the Holy Spirit? That was something called the modalistic controversy, modalism, this idea that God simply had different manifestations of himself that was Jesus, that was the Holy Spirit, that did different things.
Gerrit It led to other controversies such as the patripassianism controversy. You big on that? Oh, huge. Yeah. I know we use the term passion very differently in English language today. I mean, passion is almost always tied in English language today, meaning erotic love, usually. Something similar to that. But passion, as it relates to Jesus, it's not that at all. It means suffering. So the passion of the Christ, right, is the suffering of Jesus, the passion. And when your passion plays, it's not... Trust me, you'll be disappointed. If you go to a passion play and you're thinking that it's erotic love. No, it's passion is recounting the suffering of Jesus, leading up to his crucifixion and including his crucifixion.
Gerrit And so you start to have people have questions like that. Well, wait a minute. If God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all one God, and they're all the same entity, then that means the father, since the father is Jesus, the father must have suffered on the cross, right? That's what patripassianism means. Patra meaning father, right? Patra, the father suffered. They are gonna push back on this, so that's considered a heresy. So you can see where all of these early Christian disputes, they surround that idea. Who is Jesus? And what is his relationship to God? And to a lesser extent, the Holy Spirit, but that's all.
Richard And so it starts in IC, but this doesn't seem to do away with the controversy.
Gerrit You are going to have controversies like this all the way up through, I mean, honestly, you're gonna have heresies that are gonna be breaking off in the Middle Ages over these arguments about what is the nature of God and what is the nature of Christ.
Richard One of the things we discussed is Gerrit and I talk about generally boring topics as we're off mic as well, as we talked about Mary's then connection to Jesus and the problem that that created for Jesus being born. Would you mind?
Gerrit Well, right, so part of the argument, I mean, we'll get into this maybe at some other point in greater detail, but probably not.
Richard Probably not.
Gerrit But yeah, we only live to over promise and under deliver. We are the classic. Yeah, we should actually rename the podcast Over Promising and Under Delivering by Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat.
Richard Actually, the way that I brought it up is I accidentally called it the Immaculate Reception. The Immaculate Reception.
Gerrit I'm quoting the 74 Super Bowl, what was that? Someone listening knows and they are going to come at us.
Richard Well, someone in Pittsburgh, which we don't have any listeners in Pennsylvania.
Gerrit I don't think we have any listeners in Pennsylvania, but there's Pittsburgh Steelers fans everywhere. That's true.
Richard Anyway, so I meant to call it the Immaculate Conception, and I called it the Immaculate Reception, and Gerrit laughed, and then I'm like, oh yeah, well, Frank O'Harris, it was also quite the miracle.
Gerrit It really was. I mean, that Terry Bradshaw was a good quarterback. When you see him now, also a miracle. He could be sainted, basically.
Richard So there's a misconception of this.
Gerrit Yeah, so talking about...
Richard As we're coming close to Christmas.
Gerrit As we're coming close to Christmas, let's destroy some ideas.
Richard Well, no, no, it's just people just have a misunderstanding of what the Immaculate Conception is.
Gerrit And with the belief in original sin, right, that every single person is born with a sin nature, meaning they are all together born sinful, with a sin nature. So you are sin... Because of Adam and Eve's transgression, you're sinful. Now again, Latter-day Saints don't believe this. We don't believe it because the Book of Mormon exists, and also other Latter-day prophets. We don't believe that everyone is born in sin. We believe that everyone is born in a state whereby they are eventually going to sin, the natural man, right? But a baby isn't actually sinful. A baby is just an innocent... You know, that's what D&C 93, if you go back to our episodes on that, that man was from the beginning innocent before God. Not condemned before God, innocent before God. But it is a very ubiquitous, and that means universal, Christian belief in this idea of fallen mankind with original sin.
Gerrit Meaning by the very act of humans having reproduced, humans are all fallen. Which means they pass on to their children that fallen sin nature from Adam and Eve. So, that means it, regardless, my son is going to have a fallen nature. Why? Because I am fallen, and my wife is fallen, even though she's as close to Angelic as you can get, still somehow fallen according to this theology. And therefore the child is born in sin. Meaning the child is already separated from God with their sin nature. Well, that became a problem trying to deal with Jesus then, right? Because how could Jesus be born from someone who is sinful and not take part in that sin nature by the act of being born?
Richard So, this idea of the Immaculate Conception, people often think it refers to Jesus.
Gerrit Most people, most non-Catholics, or Catholics who haven't gone through catechism in a while and don't go to church on any day but Easter, I would say most Protestants and Latter-day Saints as well, when they hear of the Immaculate Conception, they think it's a reference to the fact that Mary was, became great with child without knowing any man. Biblical terms work out really well here. I appreciate that.
Richard We can thread that needle.
Gerrit You know, the King James translators have helped a lot in our discussion of this, right? So how is it possible that Jesus is born of a Virgin Mary, right? And that's what I think most people think it means. And I understand why. I mean, it seems very natural to think that, oh, the Immaculate Conception meaning somehow Mary became pregnant with Jesus without, you know, any actual contact, right? And yet, that's not what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is. The doctrine instead is it's going even further back. It's trying to describe how it is that Mary was born without original sin, that through a miracle, and when you say how, the answer is a miracle. So, that means we don't need a description because it is a miracle, that Mary somehow was born of her mother who, through tradition, not because it's in the Bible, you'll note, you'll run to your Bibles, you won't find this, that her mother, Anne, through a miracle, gave birth to Mary without passing on the sin nature.
Gerrit So, Mary was free from original sin. Therefore, when she gave birth to Jesus, Jesus was free from original sin. Now, that doctrine is going to be at first watered down in the early Protestant era, and then eventually just discarded, in part because the very fact that Mary was now the only other person on earth who had ever lived on it that didn't have original sin. What did that already mean? I mean, she's already the mother of the Lord, right? But she's also qualitatively different than every other person who's ever lived on earth because she didn't have original sin, right? The Catholic veneration of Mary, which you're all aware, if you have a good Catholic friend, you know that the veneration of Mary, the intercession of Mary, taking prayers essentially to Jesus and God, that's going to be discarded by the Protestant Reformation.
Gerrit And so, I was telling Richard, one of the greatest ironies that exists of the Protestant Reformation, I don't know that you're ever sitting home making a list of these. What are the lists of ironies of the Protestant Reformation? You know what? Let's talk about what's number 10 on that list. You know, coming soon, probably in premium content, that you'll have to pay for will be us listing the top 10 ironies of the Protestant Reformation. That is so garbage. I'm sure we'll have so many people who want this. We just, we listen to what the people want.
Richard Yeah, the people cry out.
Gerrit They cry out and they say, my brother Dallin is always saying the people cry out. What he means by that is why aren't you doing more on polygamy? At any rate, one of the great ironies, honestly, is that Martin Luther, the founder of the Protestant Reformation, he was not wholly devoted to God in his early life. And as he tells his conversion experience, his parents wanted him to be a lawyer, because that makes money, rather than being a monk, which does not, by definition, does not. And when he tells his conversion experience, he explains that he was caught in this horrific thunderstorm, that he thought he was going to die, and at the moment that, you know, lightning's flashing all around him, the wind, I mean, he cries out, St. Anne, save me, and I will become a monk. Now that St.
Gerrit Anne, whenever you hear about St. Anne, that is a reference to the purported mother of Mary, who is sainted by the fact that she had the miracle of giving birth to Mary without passing on the nature of sin, the immaculate conception. That's why she's a saint. The irony, if you're still following along, which you're not, but we have one listener in Minnesota, or probably at this point, zero listeners in Minnesota. The irony is that Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation is going to turn against the veneration of the saints. So the very thing that converted Luther to become a monk, you know, he's crying out to Anne, and Anne saves him. Once he actually launches his Reformation years later, when he nails his theses to the door, he's going to start off slowly but surely moving away from the veneration of all of the saints, including St.
Gerrit Anne. So the very saint that he thought miraculously saved him, he's going to eventually say, and we shouldn't be praying to her. So that's a really bad irony, huh?
Richard No, no, it's a top ten.
Gerrit It has to make number one.
Richard Oh, you think?
Gerrit Well, I don't know what our list of ironies are, but that's one of them. At any rate, it's important to understand that all of these discussions about the nature of Jesus and his life are going to have a culmination. Now part of that is a discussion about what exactly is Jesus. Is Jesus a half God, half man, like Hercules? Or is Je… I mean, we referenced that earlier.
Richard Danny DeVito in the last episode.
Gerrit Yeah, I believe I was mocked thoroughly for knowing who Danny DeVito was married to, which is only part of the mocking that takes place on this show. Most of the mocking, I have to pause so that the laughter can be brought down, and then we can restart it again. But what is the nature of Jesus? Is Jesus fully God from the moment that he's born? Or is Jesus only partially God? How is it that Jesus is mortal? How can you kill a God? As I've said before, you know, how big do you have to make that spear to kill an immortal being? I mean, if they're immortal, how can they die? So how is it that Jesus can be both fully God, which is fully immortal and fully omnipotent, and also fully mortal, and have the ability to die? That nature of Jesus question really starts to play into the conversation. Now, I was reading this creed, and we go back to that, but we kind of, it was a helpful tangent, I think, or at least that's what I'll say.
Gerrit Richard's probably on the side taking notes, saying no, no, it wasn't. That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in unity, neither confounding the persons, and this is where I stopped and went off on the giant tangent, because what does it mean by confounding the persons? By saying that God the Father and Jesus are exactly the same, you have now confounded the persons. If you, that's a response to Patrick Passionism, honestly. It's one of the responses to it. So they are not, so you can't confuse them. You can't say that God and Jesus are the same. At the same time, you can't make the fact that they are separate, a division in God. So neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the essence. So whatever God is, Jesus is that, and the Father is that.
Gerrit But the Father is not Jesus, and Jesus is not the Father. Are you following me?
Richard Yeah, I got it, yeah.
Gerrit But whatever God is, is that.
Richard You bet.
Other Yep.
Gerrit That's a half-hearted you bet from Richard. Much similar to when I told him at the beginning of the year, I think BYU is gonna go all the way this year, let's put some money on that.
Richard I said you bet.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard No, we didn't.
Gerrit And then we didn't, because we're trying to go to heaven. We just follow the lines, we follow the lines. For there is one person of the father, another of the son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the father and of the son and of the Holy Ghost is all one. The glory equal, the majesty co-eternal, such as the father is, such as the son, such as the Holy Ghost. And then the big key point, again, the refutation of Arianism, is the father uncreated, the son uncreated, the Holy Ghost uncreated. So how do you deal with that terminology of begotten then? Right? If Jesus is the only begotten of the father, how is it possible that he is co-eternal? I mean, if he's begotten of the father, then he by definition can't be co-eternal, right?
Gerrit Well, no, the argument is going to be made by Athanasius and others that Jesus is eternally begotten of the father, meaning there was never a time when Jesus wasn't begotten of the father. I think when Latter-day Saints use the term only begotten, we always tie it to his begottenness in the flesh, right? He's the only begotten son of God in the flesh. The very fact that we have to make that distinction is a reference to what? That we believe God has other sons and daughters, right? When Christians use the terminology of the children of God, and you'll hear them say this, oh, we believe we're all children of God, they don't mean a person who is in any way like God.
Gerrit They don't mean that at all. They mean that God decided to create some of his creations like himself. We don't even really know what that means. But in some way, God created man in his own image and likeness. Now we're of course fallen and sinful, and we're all welcome to hell, all of us, right? But we are the most favored creations of God. So when Christians use the term, I am a child of God, they don't mean I am a child of God because I am the same type of being God is, and he is my father, and I lived with him before I came to this earth. They mean God has lots of creations. God created me out of nothing at the moment of my conception, and I am a favored creation of God.
Gerrit God is my father because he built me, because he created me. The same way a watchmaker is the father of the watch he makes, but those gears ain't the same as the watchmaker.
Richard So what you're saying here is, and you described this in great detail, but it's not just that we believe in a different Jesus, but at its core, we believe in a different us. So it's a very different us. It's a very different Jesus in terms of our connection.
Gerrit And part of the reason why that's a problem is that we're talking about very high theology here. I mean, it is very likely that your Christian friend who is saying that you don't believe in the real Jesus literally doesn't even understand what the Nestorian controversy was in early Christianity, right? They might have heard about it. And look, I'm not bagging on people. It would be the same thing if I was talking about Latter-day Saints. I think many, many believers believe culturally. There are certain things that they believe because they've heard enough times. But at the same time, when you get into high theology, very few people have either the time or inclination for it, right? And so, you know, I go to church on Sunday, and I hear a nice, you know, and the pastor is not going to be like, well, today we're going to break down the Chalcedonian Creed. I mean, that might happen in a Sunday school, but it's most likely not going to happen, right?
Gerrit Because what do people need to hear more? Hey, Jesus loves you. Just so everyone's aware, I know things seem bad, but Jesus loves you. I mean, it just, in a practical sense, it's very difficult to have these kind of discussions. But for Latter-day Saints, these deeper discussions are the reason why, not only that Christians see us as outside of their realm, but that we see ourselves outside of their general realm. Because we have beliefs that are fundamental to us, that come from the revelations of the Prophet Joseph Smith. But they change the nature of who we are in relation to God.
Richard So that's why, and we've brought this up in a previous podcast, but that's why when Mitt Romney is running for president, and he's running against Mike Huckabee, and Mike Huckabee to the New York Times says, you know that Mormons believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers. That's why that's, because to us, we're like, I mean, technically, yeah, but we don't think about it like that.
Gerrit Right, no one's ever walking around Sunday school bearing their testimony about the fact that Jesus and Satan are brothers, right? It's, of the beliefs we have, it's somewhere below ham radios, and above getting the third year of food storage, right? I mean, technically, we believe that. But when, again, I don't want to put any words in any politician's mouth. I don't, possibly, he wasn't being disingenuous, even though he was a Baptist preacher, so he full-willed knew what he was doing.
Richard He knew exactly what he was doing.
Gerrit Allegedly, he knows that he's throwing a bomb, right? And why is that such a bomb? Well, because Christians, and if you go back and listen to our episode on angels, this matters for this very reason, Christians believe that angels are creatures, that God created them. And one of those angels that God created was Lucifer. And that angel that God created rebelled against God. Now, they don't ever spend any time explaining why does God created an angel that he knew was going to rebelled and then had them rebelled. That this angel rebelled and then fell. So why is it such a hateful thing to say, oh, you Mormons think Jesus and Satan are brothers? Well, because you're saying that a creation of God, and by the way, the most evil creation of God, is the same as Jesus. But Jesus wasn't created, so they can't be brothers, right?
Gerrit And now for a Latter-day Saint, it's not a big deal because we simply say, well, we're all brothers and sisters, like every single being. First of all, angels are all beings that either have lived on this earth or will live on this earth, unless they rebelled with Satan. And all of us are spirit children of God who live with God before. So no, we don't go around spouting the fact that Jesus and Satan are brothers, but we're also not offended by it, because we've all come to terms with the fact that a third of our Heavenly Father's children rebelled against him and were cast down. And he was the leader of it.
Richard And we're saying a third of us.
Gerrit A third of people like us. Not a third of angels that God created.
Richard Right, exactly.
Gerrit So one of the reasons why there's such a gap between the two, I mean, a gulf affixed as if we were quoting Jesus with the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, is fundamentally, we don't agree on who we are. We don't agree on who Jesus is. But the real reason why we don't agree on who Jesus is, is because we don't agree on who we are. Christians believe that we are all creations of God. We have no aseity. We don't have any existence prior to this life. We are eternal beings because God made us however many years ago. However old you are, that's how long ago God made you that being. And yes, you'll go on forever, probably burning in hell, but go on forever because God made you eternal when he made you.
Gerrit Latter-day saints are saying something very different. Latter-day saints are saying they are eternal. And you can go back and listen to our Doctrine and Covenants Section 93 if you want a little bit more on that. But we believe that we are eternal beings. This is one of the things that Joseph Smith teaches. So, when your Christian friend says, will you worship a different Jesus? They are probably not saying it because they are thinking of high theological discussions. They are probably not saying it having gone through... They are just trying to be a jerk. They are trying to be mean. But, the reality is, we do see God and Jesus, not as the Arianists saw them, right? Because the Arianists believe that God created Jesus. There was a time that Jesus didn't exist. That's not what Joseph Smith is teaching.
Gerrit Joseph Smith is teaching that Jesus has always existed, and God has always existed, and all of us have always existed. And it's that last part of it that is the real crux that causes us to be separate from Christians. Because it's that last part that is so different. Because we agree with Christians that God has always existed. We agree with Christians that Jesus has always existed. We agree that the Holy Spirit has always existed. The problem is, we have the audacity, or at least Joseph Smith had the temerity to receive from God the understanding that we have also all always existed.
Other Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.

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I'm pretty sure though that the content is still going to be just as bad.

GerritBanter

Nothing says Christmas more than a discussion, an argument about the nature of Jesus.

GerritBanter

You can hate Jupiter, but as long as you sacrifice that goat, Jupiter is fine with it. In Christianity, of course, what you think matters a ton.

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Well, history professors are known for being just titans of industry.

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Omnipity. From now on, you heard it here first, folks.

GerritBanter

But to a Christian, you're not thinking about Jesus the right way.

GerritInsight

The same way a watchmaker is the father of the watch he makes, but those gears ain't the same as the watchmaker.

GerritInsight

So what you're saying here is, and you described this in great detail, but it's not just that we believe in a different Jesus, but at its core, we believe in a different us.

RichardInsight

It's, of the beliefs we have, it's somewhere below ham radios, and above getting the third year of food storage, right?

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The problem is, we have the audacity, or at least Joseph Smith had the temerity to receive from God the understanding that we have also all always existed.

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More from this episode

Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.

Claim check

What critics say, and what the episode found
The Immaculate Conception means Jesus was conceived without a human father.
When other Christians say "we are all children of God," they mean the same thing Latter-day Saints do.
"Mormons think Jesus and Satan are brothers" is a strange secret belief.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.

Take it to class

Ready to copy into a lesson or a text

The Nicene Creed's "begotten, not made" was written to answer one question: was Jesus a created being?

Christianity cares about what you believe, not just how you worship. That's why other Christians focus on how we understand Jesus, even when we use all the right words.

As Richard puts it, it's not just that we believe in a different Jesus; we believe in a different us. Latter-day Saints believe we are eternal spirit children of God.

Most friends who say you aren't Christian don't know the high theology behind it. Be patient; many believers on every side believe culturally.

Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.

Banter bin

The running jokes, for people who skip ahead
Recorded in a subway tunnelThe travel disclaimer for this episode and the next: bad audio, same bad content (0:01, 0:35).
Nicaea for Christmas"What says Christmas more than" the Council of Nicaea; it's basically an Advent calendar (2:05, 2:20).
Shameless Dutch plugSinterklaas, "because we're awesome" (3:13).
Season 38Slow-roll a Christmas a year and they reach polygamy in season 38, when the jokes finally age (5:23, 7:58).
Episodes promised, never made"We only live to over promise and under deliver," and a premium top-ten list of Reformation ironies (33:51, 34:01, 40:40).
We're huge in MinnesotaA listener proves there is one in Minnesota; by the end Gerrit figures there are zero again (5:48, 42:22).
Crinkling LeavesRichard pitches names for the coming premium content; Gerrit says that name means Richard has offed him (23:27, 23:31).
Tammy, subscriber number oneShe sent a Venmo before the content existed; they kept one cent (24:34, 24:39).
The Immaculate ReceptionRichard's slip, Franco Harris, and "we don't have any listeners in Pennsylvania" (34:16, 34:35).
Ham radiosJesus and Satan as brothers ranks somewhere below ham radios and above the third year of food storage (53:09).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

Your question could be next week’s episode
Questions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
General ConferenceGeneral Conference talks that cite a scripture read in this episode.

In General Conference

Talks from the latest General Conference that cite a scripture this episode reads or names on air
October 2026 General Conference · cites D&C 93I Am a Child of GodElder Hutch U. FaleElder Fale teaches that every person is a beloved child of heavenly parents, illustrating God's unearned love by showing his children their baby pictures: they did nothing to earn their parents' love and can do nothing to lose it.

Summaries, themes and lessons for every talk are on What Did They Say?

Go deeperWhere to read more.

Go deeper

Deep dives the episode points toward
The Nicene Creed line by line, and which phrases answer Arius (12:32).
Modalism and patripassianism, two early heresies about how the Father, Son and Holy Spirit relate (30:06).
R.C. Sproul on the sovereignty of God, and the one thing he says God cannot do (26:47).
Joseph Smith's teaching that we have always existed, and the D&C 93 episode it points back to (56:42).
Part 3 finishes the series with the premortal life and the King Follett teaching (58:33).
SOT Litner · S2E51.