Standard of Truth · Season 2 · Episode 6 · 1:29:11

Carthage Conspiracy Part 2

The film's star witness, Joseph's sister Katharine, didn't describe his last sermon in 1844 at all; she said it in an interview in 1894, half a century later.

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Picking up from part one: does the rest of the evidence in the video "Who Killed Joseph Smith" hold up, starting with Joseph's sister Katharine as its star witness?

Richard

Richard and a still-reluctant Gerrit finish their look at the video "Who Killed Joseph Smith," starting with its star witness, Joseph's sister Katharine, whose memory of a betrayal prophecy was recorded 50 years later and doesn't match the earlier accounts of his last speech. Gerrit explains why someone would want Brigham Young to be the villain, from the Reorganized Church to the modern Denver Snuffer movement, which gave the film a glowing review. Then he takes apart two more claims with documents the filmmaker never cited: General Minor Deming's letter explains why visitors came and went at the jail, and Dan Jones's full account shows the guards threatening to shoot Joseph, not just hang him. Gerrit closes by reading Willard Richards's journal for the martyrdom and John Taylor's own words of grief and testimony for Joseph and Hyrum, and bears his own testimony that only the Holy Ghost can tell you the Church is true.

Who comes upJoseph SmithHyrum SmithKatharine Smith SalisburyJohn TaylorWillard RichardsBrigham YoungMinor DemingDan JonesThomas FordWilliam LawDenver SnufferFrank Worrell

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Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, where we explore the early days of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and gain rare historical insights into how a young farm boy was able to establish a new church and grow it by way of visions, manifestations and miracles.

Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by Professor Richard Gleadu.

Richard And against Dr. Dirkmaat's will, we are doing part two of The Murder of Joseph Smith Conspiracy Theory.

Gerrit It's really hard to even title it.

Richard I don't know.

Gerrit How do you describe something, it's kind of like, you know, how do you describe a rose? Well, how do you describe something that's very much not a rose?

Richard So, Who Killed Joseph Smith is the name of the video that we're talking about. And we talked kind of in a rambling fashion a little bit.

Gerrit And kind of should be completely.

Richard Yeah, we did, a little bit, as we described a little bit of what the video was and some of the different aspects to it. In this particular episode, we want to identify a couple of items specifically. So the next one that we wanted to talk about, and this one might, actually, there's a couple of parts to this, but it's essentially Catherine Smith. So they bring her up as the star witness of evidence that Joseph knows that he is in a pit of vipers and that the people that are going to murder him are his friends.

Gerrit Yeah, and in fact, the way this is presented is, I'm not the one who came up with this idea that Joseph's own followers were going to try to kill him. In 1844, the way it's said is, in 1844, Catherine Smith said, well, this is where playing fast and loose with the sources is a real problem. And of course a big deal is made out of, it's Joseph's sister who says it. It makes it sound like in 1844, Catherine Smith had a pen out and was writing down what Joseph Smith said at his last sermon. In point of fact, Catherine Smith said this in 1894, 50 years, literally half a century.

Richard Hundreds of years.

Gerrit Or in their regard, two millennia after this, literally 50 years after in an interview, she talks about Joseph's last speech and says this. She says that she was there for it. I guess we'll just read it.

Richard And they quote her in the...

Gerrit Yeah, they quote her in the movie, right? I was in Nauvoo a few days before my brothers were brought to Carthage where they met their death. I shall never forget Saturday, June 23rd, 1844, when I last saw my brothers alive. I heard brother Joseph's last sermon delivered to a great audience in Nauvoo, the largest crowd I'd ever seen in the open air for no house would hold the people. I might say that it was more the nature of a prophecy than a sermon. Rather, the conclusion was, for he finished, he turned and stood facing some of the high priests and elders sitting there. So her point is Joseph turns and looks at the high priests and elders sitting there. Church dignitaries who were seated on the platform behind him and told them that there was seated on the speaker stand beside him, those who were conspiring to deliver him up to the enemy and take his life and be responsible for his death. There are those among you who will betray me soon. In fact, you have plotted to deliver me up to the enemy to be slain. The truth of this prophecy is of history.

Richard And she's saying this is quoting Joseph.

Gerrit He was betrayed by his own alleged best friends. So the argument has been used, was used by the reorganized church for many years. Oh yeah, not only was Joseph, was bringing me a not the legitimate heir to the church, he probably had something to do with Joseph Smith's murder. Now, this is presented as overwhelming evidence because this is Joseph Smith's sister. But of course the problem is we actually do have records of Joseph Smith's final sermon that he gives. Now, both of them are relatively late as well. They could be taken from earlier sources, but this is one of the accounts you have here. This is from this final discourse before it goes. The remarks of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 1844, written by the same of those on the 22nd, we heard a call to the Legion of Muster in the Main Street near the Mansion House.

Gerrit This day the Lord shone unto me, which was never shown before, that I have thousands of friends while others have sought to crawl into my bosom because of my good feelings towards them. And now are they vipers and seek my life. And if they shall take it, they will pursue you. They will do it anyhow. When you are obliged to fight, to be sure that you do not stay in your hands with the blood of women and children. And when your enemies call for quarter, be sure you grant them the same. And then you will have power over the world. He then says, you will be forever called the Nauvoo Legion. And as I've had the honor of being your general leader, I feel to say a few words to your comfort. I wish to ascertain your interests of faith and your future mission of life that you are engaged in, even the same cause of the priesthood sealed upon you. And your calling is to minister life and salvation to all nations upon the earth. Although things appear at present in crisis by the work of our enemies, that they do hold an overruling power over us, but I will liken these things to a wheel. It is sure to be rolling on, and as sure as we the saints sometimes will be on top of this great wheel if they hang on for the fortune in view.

Gerrit He goes on to say, be not troubled nor give yourselves any uneasiness so as to make any rash moves, or to take any hasty steps doing anything wrong, whereby you will be cut short in your calling and your preaching of the gospel in this generation. It goes on to say that they're going to move out to the West, and then probably more famously, he then drew his sword from his scabbard and raised it above his head, saying, I will call upon the mighty gods to bear witness of this. I have drawn my sword, and it will never be sheathed again until vengeance is taken on all of our enemies. I call upon the elements in our defense, the winds, the whirlwinds, the thunders, the lightnings, the hailstones, the heavens shall tremble, the earthquake shall shake the earth, shall be shaken with the seas heaving themselves beyond their bounds. These things shall be brought to bear against our enemies for our protection. You'll notice while he does reference the fact that his, that his, some of his friends have betrayed him, he is not making any reference to anybody on the stand. In fact, it is William Law and the Higbee boys, whom Joseph was very close with because he loved their dad.

Gerrit Their dad, Judge Higbee, was one of his best friends. And it's these two boys that are some of the writers and some of the leaders of the Nauvoo Exposer and people that are trying to kill him. The reality is many of the people trying to gin up support, the people who are causing him to be arrested and taken to Carthage are in fact William Law, Joseph Jackson, the Higbees. They are former members of the Church. They are former friends of William Law. William Law goes from a couple years earlier, him and his brother writing a hymn praising God that Joseph was saved from being taken to Missouri to be tried to pursuing the charges against Joseph Smith that will lead to Joseph Smith's murder. I don't know what Catherine Smith thought she remembered, but we do have a more contemporary account of that speech.

Gerrit We actually have two of them, and neither of them doesn't make any reference to that. I could see how that could end up, you know, Joseph said that there were his own friends that portrayed him. Yeah, but it's a little bit different thing to turn around and say, and that man right there, Willard Richards, with the bandolero of guns, is the one who is going to do it. It's funny, too, that after making a big deal about when some of the sources were written down, that the maker of this film doesn't tell people. Now, again, there's one of two things that are possible. He either doesn't know that the account he was quoting from Catherine Smith came half a century later, or far more likely, and the other context is, of course, she's a member of the reorganized church that's claiming that Brigham Young is a false prophet and that John Taylor was a false prophet, that the Quorum of the Twelve were all false prophets.

Gerrit So in that very angry time between the reorganized church and our church, there were lots of accusations that were made, and Catherine, in making her accusation, is saying, I'm a member of the true church. I know that Brigham Young and the Quorum of the Twelve are a false church because Joseph said that there were people on the stand that betrayed him, except I don't know that Joseph said that. He then apparently turned around and asked those same people to go with him to Carthage. So that seems to be a little, what's more likely? That Willard Richards in his journal writes, Joseph asked me to go with him to Carthage, but really Joseph didn't because he was one of the people that was planning to kill Joseph, or that maybe Catherine was embellishing a little bit. And I think that's part of the problem with all of this is that we do have sources. We have sources that talk about all of these things. But like many people trying to prove a point from the past, they use a singular source or maybe a second source to the exclusion of all others in order to try to prove the point they want to make.

Gerrit When I was in graduate school, I remember the very I had a very esteemed professor teaching me my methods class. And methods is very similar to Protestant hell. If you were to go there, it would be like that. You had a methods class?

Richard I did. My methods two final exam was 17 hours long.

Gerrit The whole point of that class is to teach you essentially how to be a historian. And so this is one of the first classes that I took in my PhD coursework. And like I said, he was very esteemed. He has multiple big time books published. I probably won't mention him just because I don't want him to ever have to feel like he's associated with that Mormon. But he said, here are the rules of writing history. They're the most important rules. First, you can't make anything up. If you don't have a source that says it, then you can't say that it happened. So you need to footnote every single thing that you say happened. Second, you can't leave anything out. You don't just pick the source that happens to work with the theory that you have. If there are five different sources and three say one thing and two say something else, then what you write is three of our sources say this happened and two of them say that this happened.

Gerrit But you don't leave anything out. And I feel like the makers of this film really did both. They both invented sources that don't exist, such as Joseph stalking out into the hallway with his revolver, but not actually shooting at anyone, having a nice tea time chat with the mobbers that were there coming back into the room, only to find that John Taylor has murdered his brother. Zero sources at all for any of those things. Not one. So you're inventing a source when you say that it happened. Second of all, you are leaving things out by the bushel. There are multiple others. I mean, we never even approached the fact that while he portrayed that the church's standard explanation of the murder of Joseph Smith is the one with Joseph being shot and killed as he's going out of the door, we didn't even talk about the fact that actually what's been much more standard as an argument for how Joseph was murdered for over a hundred years was the William Daniels account that was copied into the church history that said that Joseph was actually executed on the ground by the mobbers outside.

Gerrit That lost its credence to a great degree by the investigations of the historian Mount Vernon Hill and now President Dallin H. Oaks, who investigated this as well when he wrote the book Carthage Conspiracy. And Daniels was essentially a kind of discredited witness. So, I mean, even the idea that this is the lie that the church has been telling for a hundred and fifty, well, sorry, for hundreds and hundreds of years, for a million, sometime in the Pleistocene epic, the church began teaching about, right? Well, even that is actually false, because in reality, and I would guess some of you listeners, you might remember your grandparents, you know, saying something to you of the effect, well, didn't someone try to cut off Joseph Smith's head? Didn't they execute him out by the wall?

Gerrit Yeah, that's because that was in our church literature for over a hundred years, or as Justin Griffin believes, thousands of years.

Richard The purpose of this podcast is so that people like this can't just make up some thing and pretend it to be in some pseudo intellectual academic argument and talk to people who don't know even a fraction of what these people are alleging to know and claim things to defame the prophet, or in this case, defame the church, or to try to attack and bring people away from the gospel. They don't get to do that without a response. And even if more people listen to this podcast than ever watch this stupid video, the point is that, and maybe the things that we're saying draw people to go and watch this stupid...

Gerrit Which I hope they don't, because, well...

Richard But they inevitably will. But hopefully when that happens, then they're able to see the arguments that you're saying and see this stupid video for what it is. And even though this isn't something that's in some wide distribution, it provides an opportunity for us to talk about lots of different things and the way that antagonists attack the church. And so we're using this as kind of an example to talk about a bunch of different items.

Gerrit Right. And someone might wonder, well, okay, so I get the point that they're trying to argue that Brigham Young ordered the murder of Joseph and Hyrum and Samuel.

Richard Which they don't make in part one, by the way.

Gerrit Well, they make in their interviews. But yeah, don't worry, that's coming. Spoiler alert. And well, why is someone making that argument? I don't understand why they'd make it. And I think it's important to understand that there's a whole segment of Latter-day Saints. Now, I'm going to make a lot of generalizations. So if you know someone who fits in the category and you're saying, well, that doesn't fit my friend, who thinks I'm making a generalization. So it probably doesn't include your friend. But in general, that there has been a modern movement over the past decade or so that in some ways corresponds with some of the earlier attacks on Brigham Young's leadership of the church. I think everyone's pretty familiar with the fact that Sidney Rigdon said he would be the leader of the church. Well, Sidney Rigdon did go, found his own church, and then eventually his followers excommunicated him, and it was rough for Sidney.

Gerrit But also James Strang claimed that he was to be the new follower of the church and claimed that he had a letter that said as much. He's eventually going to be killed by one of his followers and his movement's going to fall apart. There are some modern day people who still believe that Strang was the rightful prophet to follow Joseph, but you probably haven't noticed any local Strangite Latter-day Saint churches around you. But of course, the most prominent movement among those is the eventual coalescence of some of these believers who didn't go west into what was the reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints fundamental to their claim was that Brigham Young and the Quorum of the Twelve were not the rightful heirs of Joseph Smith, that they were teaching false doctrines, and that in fact, eventually, they're going to come to the conclusion that the lineage of Joseph was always supposed to be the one to lead the Church.

Gerrit That's not their initial argument. So I think it's not fair to place that on them, that they thought Joseph, eventually you're going to have people who think that inside the movement. But at any rate, all throughout the latter half of the 19th century and the early 20th century, you had multiple people from these various groups attacking the legitimacy of Brigham Young's prophethood. And of course, the easiest way to attack that is by going to polygamy. So for most of the time period that the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which is now called the Community of Christ, it's the same church, for most of the time period that they existed, they rejected categorically that Joseph Smith ever taught or practiced plural marriage. Different people gave witness to that effect. Emma made statements that made it, that declaimed the fact that Joseph ever taught or practiced it.

Gerrit William Smith, Joseph's brother, would claim that Joseph never taught or practiced it. And so that was really kind of this demarcator between the two. In recent decades, historians of the Community of Christ, along with other historians completely outside of the faith, our faith and theirs, have really come to terms with the fact that, look, it's all of the sources, and there are so many of them indicate that, in fact, Joseph Smith did teach and practice plural marriage. So their church has had to come to terms with that, and they have. I'm not saying they haven't. I mean, it's obviously difficult for some members more than others. But something that has happened recently, in really the last couple of decades, and primarily in the Utah, Idaho, Arizona corridor, is a similar movement of members of the church to try to find a way to remove Joseph from the controversies and difficulties that happened after Joseph.

Gerrit These are most notably the practice of plural marriage, in some cases, but not all. This is also tied to the fact that women don't serve in general priesthood offices in the church. So there are movements where people say, oh, had only Joseph lived, he was going to ordain women to become apostles, and he just was killed too quickly. And then most salient in the last two decades was that the only reason there was ever a priesthood restriction, a race restriction on both priesthood and temple worship was because of Brigham Young. And so if you're a modern Latter-day Saint and you want to have all the aspects of your Latter-day Saint worship that you have, you want to believe in a Heavenly Mother, you want to believe in a pre-existent life, these are all doctrines you literally can't have in Christianity.

Gerrit You're not allowed to walk into your local Protestant church and say, you know, I was thinking about our Heavenly Mother and see how long that gets you, right? And so they want to maintain those beliefs, but they also are incredibly uncomfortable with the more difficult aspects of Latter-day Saint history, among them being plural marriage. So what if I could prove that Joseph Smith never taught or practiced plural marriage? Well, now I don't actually have to deal with that being a ring, you know, a millstone around my neck, because yeah, polygamy was bad, polygamy was awful. I can't believe we ever practiced polygamy. Oh, Joseph Smith never even taught or practiced polygamy. That was invented by Brigham Young. Ah, crazy Uncle Brigham. It's always Brigham doing this, right? Similarly, when it comes to the priesthood restrictions for race, that makes people incredibly uncomfortable.

Gerrit And I'm not saying it shouldn't. I understand that that is a very difficult aspect of Latter-day Saint history. But if I could push that all off into this later Utah church, well, then what have I done? I've maintained the things that I want to believe that Joseph taught, and I've simply created this demarcation. Joseph was good. Everything else I believe was good. It's just that all the prophets who came after them were false prophets. And one of the movements we've mentioned before on this podcast that attracts a lot of believers in, again, the Utah, Idaho, Arizona corridor, is the snufferite movement, where this man, Denver Snuffer, is claiming exactly that. That Joseph Smith was a true prophet, and that after him, it was just all false prophets. And that's why most of the restoration has been corrupted. But thankfully and luckily, God's called him to fix it all.

Gerrit It always works out that way. It's really good. But it's very attractive to especially pietistic, and by that I mean people who really feel like it's important that you live good, that you do good, that you have this close. It's especially attractive to members who want to feel like they're good people, have a really hard time dealing with some of those difficulties of the past. Well, by making the claim, oh, that isn't really your past. That's when the church was corrupted. That's when the church was bad. It attracts people. So it's not a surprise that some of the people who are most enamored with this film that we've been talking about. Now, I didn't know this until I literally had no idea. I said, I guarantee you, I go look up what Denver Snuffer has to say on his website. And what do you have? A very glowing review of this movie.

Gerrit Because it does exactly what he's trying to tell his followers. Joseph was good. Everything after him has been bad. Again, this was something very similar to what the Community of Christ had argued, what the early Sidney Rigdonite movement had argued. And so you might wonder, why do we spend any time on this? Well, the reason why it matters is that we have friends, and I'm sure listeners who have relatives who are being deceived by this argument. Look, anyone can believe whatever they want to believe. I mean, you don't have to be a Latter-day Saint to be a good person. There are all kinds of good people in this world who aren't Latter-day Saints. And so I mean, anyone who doesn't want to accept and believe that Brigham Young was a prophet, fine, everyone has their agency and Brigham and Joseph both fought for people to have the right to choose to believe whatever they want to believe. But the moment someone crosses the line from, I just don't want to believe this, to making fake, fraudulent, historical arguments claiming that they're historical in order to buttress what they believe, well, now we have a problem.

Gerrit Because when you say, well, there just isn't any evidence that Joseph Smith ever taught or practiced polygamy, what you're saying is something that there's not a single PhD, legitimate historian would agree with you. So when you say something like, let me give you the real truth, what you're really saying is, let me give you something that non-Latter-day Saint or Latter-day Saint, none of them agree with the people who've actually been trained to look at these sources. And so I think that's where it becomes this kind of line of demarcation. Look, you don't have to believe. Joseph didn't want anyone to be forced to believe anything. If you struggle with belief and you want to become a Presbyterian and you feel good about that, well, at least you believe in Jesus. If you decide you don't want to be a Christian anymore and you found your role in Hinduism, at least you believe there's a higher power. At least you believe in trying to do good works for other people.

Gerrit You know, God, Brigham Young, taught that all of those great religious leaders were inspired by the Holy Spirit. So I'm not saying that if you're not a Latter-day Saint, you're not a good person. If someone's not a Latter-day Saint, that's called almost everyone. But if you are attempting to defame John Taylor by saying that he is not only a murderer, but he is a premeditated murderer of the Prophet of the Restoration, well, you better come with something more than I'm not sure how big the bullet would have to be. You better actually have something that another historian, or at the very least, an actual trained forensic expert says, oh yeah, that's what happened. Instead, what do you have? You have a bunch of, well, doesn't it stand to reason? No, I've looked at this a lot and there's like, there's like no other way. Well, if it's that obvious, then how come you don't have any historians who agree with you?

Gerrit Go get a non-Latter-day Saint historian. Go get a non-Latter-day Saint historian and present the evidence to her and have her say that that's what it is. Present it to this man and have him say that's what it is. Why don't you have that? I think we all know exactly why you don't have that. I'm pretty sure that the makers of that film didn't say, we have like six Harvard professors who want to be on here saying that this theory is perfect, but we just don't have time for all of them because we have to have that one scene where I'm brooding in the dark thinking about it. So we've got to cut that. There's no way. Of course, if they had that, they would use that. It's similar to the snufferite claims. There aren't any historians that validate the claims that the snuffer's movement is making. That's not that. That's not. He's using history to make claims about his current belief using the idea of history, but not using history that's accepted.

Gerrit And when you challenge them on that, what's the response? Well, that's that, you know, because they're all in league together. It's a giant conspiracy to keep the truth down. It's a giant conspiracy. So you're saying that members of the Community of Christ and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and, you know, Hedrickite Latter-day Saints and also atheist historians are all in league together to make sure that no one thinks Brigham Young is a bad person. Well, I got news for you. That league doesn't exist. In fact, in any, you know, Brigham Young is often the easy mark for people trying to find criticism of the Latter-day Saint movement. And so I think that's part of the reason, just as an explanation of why we even spent some time on it. And so with that in mind, I mean, part of the reason why we talked about this film is a way of demonstrating how people use half-truths, persuasion and outright falsehoods and non-academic method to make claims that to the uninitiated, to someone who's just seeing that for the first time, sound like they're really good arguments.

Gerrit But when you dig into them, what do you find? We've got all kinds of problems here. I mean, what are some other examples?

Richard Yeah, let me give you an example from the film. Here's kind of a quote on a particular topic. So he says, There isn't a single part of this reenactment that we did not think completely through. And then just a couple seconds later, for some reason, the jailer let many other people come in and out of the room.

Gerrit Like that's a stunning thing. What he's essentially assuming is, what the listener is supposed to hear from that is, why was that jailer letting people in there?

Richard What kind of deal is this?

Gerrit Have you ever been to a jail where people just come and go? Clearly the undertone is, this is part of whatever this weird conspiracy is.

Richard This is very odd. What's happening? Why are all these people coming and going?

Gerrit Now, what's interesting about that is, had he actually done... I mean, look, I know because he said that he spent thousands and thousands of hours working on this, apparently one of those thousands of hours wasn't reading the actual documents that Joseph Smith received that day.

Richard Now, I feel like when you're saying that he spent thousands and thousands and thousands of hours-

Gerrit It's what he said he spent.

Richard I know what I'm saying. I feel like you don't believe him that he spent over 3000 hours doing ballistics and other research.

Gerrit Well, I know he went to Nauvoo a lot.

Richard At least twice.

Gerrit Yeah, and then he built a set that exactly resembled the room.

Richard So maybe it has been thousands and thousands and thousands.

Gerrit I mean, but one of those thousands of hours, and in fact, one of the minutes of those thousands of hours could have been used to look up the letter that Joseph Smith received. This is not an obscure letter. This is not, oh my goodness, no one could possibly know that. This has nothing to do with anything that's going on. Joseph receives very few letters while he's actually in Carthage Jail. One of them explains exactly why there's visitors that are coming.

Richard So this is actually a really good point, because it seems again like it's picking at something that isn't that big of a deal.

Gerrit Yeah, like, oh, you're just being too hard on him. How could he know that? That's exactly my point.

Richard So that is exactly the point, right? So if you've spent the time you have, and maybe legitimately you have, you not understanding how this works makes you miss something exactly like this.

Gerrit I could spend a thousand hours practicing basketball, and I'm not going to be signed by the Utah Jazz. The reality of saying that you've spent a lot of time on something does not necessarily mean that the product is going to be good, right? You know, you worked really hard, grandpa. Yeah, so do washing machines. I mean, yeah, the fact that you spent a lot of time, if that time isn't spent in the proper way, it doesn't matter. Which is something that you actually all recognize when it comes to something else that really matters to you. If you went to your heart surgeon and you asked, well, where did you get your medical degree? Oh, I don't actually have a medical degree. Well, I'm guessing that some alarm bells would go up before this person's about to cut you open. You don't understand. I've spent thousands of hours watching surgeries.

Gerrit Okay, that's great. Did you also do any of them? Did you get a degree that said that you can do? No, you don't actually need that. You know what? It's just Big Pharma is keeping you out of that. I played so much operation. The reality is none of us want to be operated on by someone who's not actually a licensed surgeon.

Richard So a person hearing that might say, well, that's ridiculous. Obviously a person that's cutting into me, I'm not going to have them do that unless they actually have that experience. But as you described earlier, these matters aren't trivial as it relates to people's faith testimony.

Gerrit Well, I mean, I don't want to make this sound to life and death, but I mean, fear not them that can destroy the body, but fear them that can destroy both the body and the soul and cast this full bound hell. I mean, that's the Lord speaking that as important as my physical heart is, my spiritual heart is far, far more important because this body is going to go into dust, but who I am as a spirit in this probation, that goes on forever. And so I'm not saying this is life and death in the sense that people are actually going to die if they don't believe the right thing. But for someone who has had their faith challenged, rocked, destroyed by someone making a claim by putting themselves up as an expert for which no one else considers them an expert.

Gerrit Well, if in that in that case, yeah, this is a very important matter. Again, I don't know if this person deliberately, knew that some of these sources existed and deliberately left them out. But we're actually at the point where it doesn't really matter because they're the ones claiming to be an expert. And once you claim to be the expert, you don't get to not know central documents related to the claim you're making.

Richard You can't say, we don't know why people were coming in and out when there's something.

Gerrit We don't know why people are coming in and out except for the letter from Minor Deming, who is the general of the militia who has been assigned to protect Joseph Smith. Now, Minor Deming, we talked about in another podcast. We're going to spend some time on Minor Deming at some point. He's not a member of the church. He's an evangelical Christian. He is called up as a member of the Illinois militia by the governor and sent to Carthage to be one of the people to try to protect Joseph and to keep order because they think this could all devolve into some kind of nightmare. Well, what happens is apparently, even though the word had been given that Joseph and Hyrum should be able to have people come and go freely in the jail, some of the guards had started preventing people from coming and going in the jail. So the starting point was that anyone could go and that some of the guards had started preventing people from going. And so General Deming, who had actually left Carthage, well, he's going to leave Carthage later that day.

Gerrit So this is the 26th. This letter is written. His brother has just been killed in a horrific accident in southern Illinois. And so he's about to leave Carthage. Unfortunately, he's going to leave and go back. So he writes this letter, Mr. Smith, Mr. Smith, because he's writing to Joseph and Hyrum. I was requested by the governor to order you such protection as circumstances might require. The guard had been acting upon the disposition that your protection expected all pertaining to be so all person. Sorry, just I misaligned that that all persons, but those admitted by a pass. Okay, so they are preventing anyone to get in unless they have a pass given by one of these leaders. So they originally didn't have people having a pass. Apparently, the guard started saying, Oh, now unless you have a pass, you can't go in and see Joseph. So even people Joseph wants to see, you're not allowed to see. This is what Deming has to say. I have caused the officers of the guard to be correctly instructed of his duties so that you need not suffer further inconvenience.

Gerrit General Minor Deming, Headquarters Carthage, June 26, 1844. So we don't really know why, you know, visitors were able to just come and go on the 26th. Seems pretty odd, doesn't it? Well, that's because you didn't know. I mean, I wish he knew because if he had read this letter, Minor Deming could also be part of the conspiracy.

Richard I think if you read the letter, he would have, well, we got to pack this up, because obviously we're wrong.

Gerrit Yeah, I'm guessing that wouldn't have happened, but I'm guessing that Minor Deming would suddenly also be part of the conspiracy. Of course, of course Minor Deming was letting people in because, you know, they wanted Brigham Young to be in charge. I mean, whatever. I mean, the point is, we just don't know why people were able to come and go in the jail on the 26th and 27th. Maybe it's because a general of the Illinois militia said, you better let people come and go in the jail. So that's something that they could have known. You could have asked literally any historian. And I mean an actual historian, not someone who says, yeah, I'm not a historian, but I play one on TV. I mean an actual one. Why didn't you ask one? You know, you actually said in a documentary, you said the words, we don't know why. That implies that you've asked the question and couldn't find an answer. Who did you ask the question of? You certainly didn't read every letter Joseph had in Carthage, which if I was going to write a screenplay about Joseph being murdered in Carthage, maybe, maybe I might consider reading the letters Joseph has in Carthage.

Gerrit Or not, because that would take real time. You don't get to just say it stands to reason, and you don't get to cover up your lack of evidence simply by saying, look, I've read a ton of things. And because I've read a ton of things, that proves I know what I'm talking about. It's wonderful that you've read a ton of things. That's great. And yes, you're far more informed than other people are. Now, with the information you have, are you able to make an argument that non Latter Day Saint academics, non film creating, non academics, except as something that should be published in an academic place?

Richard Let's give another example. So the claim in the movie is that the night before the martyrdom, the mob comes and there's commotion.

Gerrit One of the points that's made is that people don't realize the mob actually came twice. They came the night before. Dan Jones is the only one who provides us this information and he provides it later. It's in an 1847 account.

Richard But they're referencing him.

Gerrit They bring up, they say Dan Jones said this, that the mob actually came the night before and that they actually took the chair and pressed it up against the wall and everyone else is pressed up against the wall. And they use that as evidence to say, you know what, they weren't actually in front of the door the way that Willard Richards and John Taylor and everyone else says they were. They were all up against the wall because Dan Jones said the night before that they all got up against the wall, not against the door.

Richard So they claim in the movie that Dan Jones, all right, so, and that they talk about how, so when Dan Jones goes to find the mob and talk...

Gerrit Joseph sends him out to go figure out what happened, because the mob creeps up the stairs, they hear them. Joseph, you know, again, according to Dan Jones says, hey, we're ready for you if you're coming here, something like that. But, and the mob leaves. And so Joseph in the morning is like, all right, you got to go figure out what's going on with the jailers. How are there a bunch of people who came in here, you know? So sends Dan Jones out to talk to the guards and say, why were there a bunch of guys in here?

Richard And that they talk about how they are there to hang Joseph, and that they came to Carthage, this is relatively quoting, paraphrasing from the movie, to hang Joseph, and that they came to Carthage to grab him and hang him. And it probably tells us more accurately what was in the mind of the mob members, rather than they are busting through the door shooting while their friends are shooting through the windows. That doesn't make any sense to me. They had come there, they were armed, but they wanted to take Joseph and hire him out of the room. So the claim is that their intent, now they're armed certainly, but their intent isn't to come in and to shoot the place up, they're coming to hang him. And the Dan Jones said that they said that they're coming to hang him.

Gerrit So why is he making that argument? He's making that argument for two reasons. One, one of the biggest problems with his so-called theory is that Joseph is meandering about the hallway with his pistol without anyone shooting him. Well, of course they're not shooting him because their plan was to hang him. And that no one is shooting through the window, even though everyone in the jail is saying people are shooting through the window, because, well, they wouldn't... I mean, you think that these people would take the chance of hitting one of their friends on the inside? I don't know that they're thinking about ballistics that well, but that's the argument. So how do I get rid of that? You know what? Dan Jones actually talked to the mob, and the mob told him, oh, yeah, all we're trying to do is hang him. That's how it's presented. You read basically what he said. So let's go to the source and find out what actually happened, as opposed to what the film that, remember, every single part of this we got.

Gerrit I mean, that the whole point is we didn't, there's not one thing in here that was not thought out. Okay, so you just said that the primer, that what's more accurate reflection of the mob's intention is that they wanted to hang him. Okay, so now you've made the statement. Let's go to the source that you're using to figure out if the source you're using actually says what you're saying it is. Let me read. I'm going to be reading here for a little bit. I apologize to Dan Jones. Early in the morning of the 27th of June, eventful day, a day ever to be remembered, the prophet requested me to descend and interrogate the guards as to the cause of the intrusion upon us in the night. In doing which, I was replied by the sergeant, whose name was Worrall. I think this is the same Frank Worrall. At least Dan Jones is saying that this Frank Worrall...

Richard So this is an alert to my father, Dan LeDuc. It's time for you to listen because we're about to mention your favorite person.

Gerrit Yeah. That Frank Worrall is at least... He's the same person who is going to be killed by Porter Rockwell. He's attempting with that posse to try to kill Jacob Backenstos, the sheriff, and Rockwell shoots and kills him. So, I mean, I'm assuming that that... I mean, there may be there's other Worralls.

Richard At least according to Dan Jones is the same person that...

Gerrit Well, yeah, yeah. At least, yeah. So, in doing so, I was replied by the sergeant. So, the sergeant of the guard. So, he goes down to the guard saying, hey, what's going on? Why there are a bunch of people up in our business last night? I was replied by the sergeant whose name was Worrall, I think, of the Carthage Grays in a very bitter spirit. Quote, this is Worrall talking. We've had too much trouble to bring old Joe here to ever let him escape out alive. And unless you want to die with him, you better leave before sundown. And you are not a dang bit better.

Richard They didn't say dang.

Gerrit Well, they got the line through it.

Richard That's true. They maybe said dang. They did not. Or they spelled it.

Gerrit A bit better than him for taking his part. I endeavored, so this is Dan Jones talking now, I endeavored to cool him down and to recall those threats, which so ill became those who were entrusted with the lives of men. But he insisted still the more. Quote, this is again the Sergeant. You'll see that I can prophesy better than old Joe that neither he nor his brother, nor anyone who will remain with them will see the sunset today. So first of all, according to the mob, according to this inquiry that we were told about in this wonderful documentary, the mob is going to kill all of them. So were I making a movie about this and using this as a source, this conspiracy just keeps going deeper and deeper. And now the mob is telling, they're telling, yeah, they're obviously lying to Dan Jones, telling him we want to kill everyone in there. If you go back in there, we're going to kill you. But actually, secretly, we're in league with John Taylor and Willard Richards.

Gerrit We want to kill everyone in there, but not them, but we're not telling you that, but you better get out of here or we're going to kill you.

Richard I don't think they say it like that in the movie.

Gerrit Yeah, it seemed like they left that part out. You know what? Cutting Room 4. Cutting Room 4, every part of this, the hardest thought about, except for the part that we didn't think about it. So, sorry, Dan Jones goes on. With such threats did the sergeant, in the presence of his men, declaim against the prisoners, and one of them leveled and cocked his rifle at me, swearing with an awful implication how he would, quote, would love to bore a hole through old Joe, quote. Yeah, the mob had no intention of shooting at him.

Richard Is that a 19th century term for hanging someone?

Gerrit Yeah, no. Bore a hole through while you're pointing a rifle at someone is generally taking the mean, I'm going to shoot a hole through you.

Richard I wonder if the musket had a bayonet on it.

Gerrit Well, they would have hung him from the bayonet even if it did. I understand. They're the ones who said this source proves that the intent of the mob was only to hang Joseph, except for the part of the people saying, I'm going to kill Dan. Like a lot of antagonistic anti-mormon stuff, there is a kernel of truth to this. Later on, after the governor leaves, when the governor says, all right, I'm taking my troops with me, and I'm going to Nauvoo, the troops that were from McDonough, they had said, oh, if you leave, we're going to take care of this. We're going to tear that prison down and have those two men's lives before sundown. So they're saying stuff like that. When the governor... So look, Stephen Markham and Dan Jones, they go to the governor, and they're like, governor, you can hear them saying they're going...

Gerrit They just said, as soon as you leave, we're going to take... And the response of the governor was essentially, this is what... Anyway, Dan Jones says, You are unnecessarily alarmed for your friends and safety, sir. The people are not that cruel. Dan Jones went on, Irritated by such a remark, I urge the necessity of placing better men than professed assassins to guard them, that they were American citizens surrendered and pledged honor, that they were also master masons, and as such, I demand the protection of their lives. Again, this is where the connection between Joseph Smith's masonry and the assassination actually comes from, from this Dan Jones. Well, Joseph wasn't Mason, but...

Richard That'll be a separate podcast.

Gerrit Yeah, that's part 11 of the 12-part podcast. When that appeal failed to reach his adamantine heart, so long before Wolverine was adamantine, so was Governor Ford, whose face appeared to be pale with fright or horror, I remarked that I had then but one request to make, that if he left their lives in the hands of those men to be sacrificed, what is that, sir? He asked in a hurried tone. Dan Jones, it is that the Almighty will preserve my life to a proper time and place to testify that you have been timely warned of their danger. All of this produced no visible effect other than to turn him around and stroll to the other end of the room. I returned to the prison and sought to enter, but they would not be let in by the guard. I returned to the hotel when His Excellency was standing in front of the McDonough troops, so the same ones who said, we're going to tear this place to pieces. The whole reason they complained. In front of the McDonough troops in line, ready to escort him to Nauvoo.

Gerrit The disbanded mob, so the governor, if you remember from our Margin project, he dismisses nearly all of the troops that he brought. He takes a company with him to Nauvoo, dismisses most of them. And so that's why Dan Jones is saying the disbanded mob, retiring to their rear at the time, shouted loud in his hearing that they were only going a short distance out of town and would return and hang old Joe and Hiram as soon as the governor be gone out of the way. I beg call those attention. So he goes on to say they tried to get the governor to respond. Of course, the governor doesn't.

Richard And so they also say that they were going to hang him. So that there is something to that. But the problem is, is that he leaves out the first part.

Gerrit So why is people shouting as they're running to the back of the line? And we're going to hang that Joe Smith. Why is that better evidence than someone pointing a gun at Dan Jones and saying, I'm going to shoot you and I'm going to bore a hole through Joseph and Hyrum Smith? Why exactly would the someone running away in the distance yelling, we're going to we're going to hang? Why would that be better evidence than the actual interaction he had with the actual guards, which is actually what Dan Jones was told to do, to go find out from the guards why people were trying to get in there. And the response from the guards is, I want to shoot Joseph Smith.

Richard And this one's a tough one, right? Because this isn't the minor deming, we didn't know this existed potentially. This is your actual source for the thing that you were saying, which is that they never intended to...

Gerrit What's obviously clear is the mob only intended to hang Joseph. Okay, so you're taking this source as the proof that that's what the mob intended. Now, did you take any statements from members of the mob? Did you get any letters, documents, anything from them or what they intended? Because what apparently happened is they all had guns and they shot. So it's a pretty hard thing to argue. I mean, it's kind of like the person who's arrested after shooting at several people saying, I never meant to hit anybody. Well, that's great. But you had a gun and you shot at them. And so that's attempted murder. But I didn't do a good job. I mean, it doesn't matter, right? So this is part of the point. So again, back to the question. Either you don't know what the document actually says, which means you shouldn't be making a documentary using that source, or which is far, far, far more likely because you read through the document to make your documentary.

Gerrit You deliberately didn't tell your viewers that part of the guard said they were going to shoot Joseph Smith. Now, why didn't you tell them that? Because look, it's already an academic question of why you're privileging people running away into the woods saying, we're going to hang Joseph over someone standing there saying, we're going to shoot Joseph. That's already very questionable from an academic standpoint. Making the argument, oh yeah, all they really want to do is hang him. Okay. But worse, back to what I said last time, you can't make anything up and you can't leave anything out. If the point is to give the truth to the people that are listening, why don't you tell them that both things were said? If what you have to say is so impressive, then tell people and it will clearly convince them. But like most people who are trying to do propaganda rather than actual academic work, the point isn't to present people with the facts.

Gerrit The point is to convince people of something that you want them to believe. And when you're doing that, you don't tell everybody everything.

Richard So we just have a couple more, just two more.

Gerrit And by that, he means episodes of this topic that he's going to...

Richard Yeah, we only have eight more. No, so one... This next one is relatively short. And it's that at the trial, or as is mentioned at the beginning of the movie, that there are injured members of the mob, right? And that there was nine total people, some fled, some were injured. And then the question then is, if the way that they went about it, where all of the guns being, well, there were a couple of gunshots, but all of the major activity happened inside of the room, right? How did all of these mob people get injured? Because he talked about people shooting from outside and inside.

Gerrit Now, my guess is, now I don't know this, so this is just me prognosticating, but I assume...

Richard It stands to reason.

Gerrit It stands to reason, you know, and I spent a lot of time on this. I assume that in their second part of this, you know, faux documentary, one of the arguments will be that the people who were supposedly wounded by Joseph shooting them were actually part of the conspiracy, and that's why they don't show up for the trial. Well, they don't show up for the trial. They're indicted, but they're not able to actually bring them to trial because they flee the state.

Richard Well, so that's possible that they will do that.

Gerrit That's what my guess is.

Richard So that's possible. But the problem is that they don't say that they claimed or that whatever. They said that they were wounded.

Gerrit I think that was just inartful. My guess is they're going to say that they weren't actually.

Richard I can't wait.

Gerrit My guess is they're going to say that. Now, what's the problem with that? Because again, why does it matter? I mean, why do I care whether or not a mobber is wounded? I mean, frankly, I don't care. I want, you know, I wish they were all. Everyone who's trying to murder Joseph, I want him wounded, right? Why does it matter? Well, because their argument is Joseph Smith didn't actually shoot any of the mob members. And why do they have to say that? Because only three of Joseph's barrels fired, and those three barrels all went into John Taylor. Now, one of the funny aspects about that is here's another aspect of this that's ridiculous, like we talked about in the earlier one. The only reason why you know that only three of the barrels fired is because both Willard Richards and John Taylor said so. It's a really weird thing to say, yeah, these are the two people who performed the murder, but they're also the ones who told us how many times Joseph shot. So we better make sure we include that as part of our evidence of how things happen. But that's what my guess is. My guess is because all the traditional narratives are that Joseph stuck his gun out the door and shot and wounded some of the members.

Gerrit Now, the fact that people were wounded is not just reported by John Taylor and Willard Richards. It's actually used as evidence by the anti-Mormon newspapers in the area that, in fact, this wasn't a murder. This was a jailbreak attempt by the Mormons inside and the Mormons outside. The fact that Joseph is shooting members of the mob is used by anti-Mormons to say this wasn't murder. This was someone who was shot in an attempt to escape. So it's not just John Taylor who says Joseph shot out the door and wounded people. Like I said, my guess is they're going to say, how come the people who were wounded didn't show up to the trial? Why weren't they there? Why not? Because they weren't actually wounded. Brigham Young paid them. I told them to get out of town. I mean, I don't know what they'll say, but that's my guess. But the funny part about that is, like I said, is you need to explain these wounded people.

Gerrit John Taylor and Willard Richards are saying Joseph shot them. The anti-Mormons who are there are saying Joseph shot them. And so what is your plan to say that they were never shot at all? And the evidence you have is, that doesn't work for my theory that I have, which, you know...

Richard It's the strongest of evidence.

Gerrit The strongest of evidence you can have is, well, that wouldn't work for my theory. And maybe it's because the theory is not a good theory.

Richard Now, the last part, this is the part actually that was for you. You got pretty upset several times as we were watching this.

Gerrit I think maybe we need to stop during the podcast.

Richard But as we were watching the movie, you got fairly upset a couple of times. And one of the main reasons that you cited, at least to me, that you were so upset about it is the pain of John Taylor and Willard Richards at the murder of Joseph Smith. And that was something that we talked about quite a bit.

Gerrit And especially, I mean, probably the part that is the most... So if you've studied this, and I mean, by that, not just driven to Carthage a few times, one of the things that actually comes across when you read John Taylor's sermons and his writings about the martyrdom, and when you read what he has to say in the Council of 50 Minutes with those documents, which apparently our film makers don't know exists because they didn't use any of them yet. Maybe they will, but Joseph is in those before his martyrdom. And for some reason, we're not using those as a source. But one of the things that comes across is not only does John Taylor have this desperate, just love for Joseph, he actually has an even closer connection with Hyrum. That John Taylor will in both of his accounts that he gives, in his sermon that he gives where he commemorates the martyrdom in 1854, and in the published account that he writes in both of them, he stops to make a special mention of what an amazing man Hyrum was in a way that actually, I would guess, makes some members of the church feel somewhat uncomfortable, because while he lauds Joseph, he actually takes an even further step saying Hyrum was so great.

Gerrit And I think because John Taylor and Hyrum Smith were such good friends. And so let me read part of that. I know we've done this before, but hey, this is kind of a refresher course. Let me read part of what John Taylor says so that you can understand what I'm talking about. The reason why it's so painful to listen to. But let me actually start with the earliest source we have on this. And that isn't the published Two Minutes in Jail Willard Richards account of this. It's from Willard Richards Journal. And in fact, much of what Willard Richards says in the Two Minutes in Jail article, which is the published article in the Times and Seasons, much of it he obviously is taking from his journal, where he initially writes down in his journal what happened. And he gives a timestamp for everything that's happening. This happened at this time. This happened at this time. This happened at this time. But to give you an idea of what that earliest document says, and I found it very odd, actually, that in this entire account that was given in this film, that we didn't ever go back to the...

Gerrit Why aren't we going back to the earliest source on this?

Richard So what is the value of a journal entry versus something that's written at the time versus something written 50 years later?

Gerrit Yeah, that a reminiscent account is affected by a lot of things. In their case, they're claiming that those accounts would be affected by the fact that they murdered Joseph Smith. But in normal people's lives, what it means is that if I go to church on Sunday and the speaker says something that makes me really mad, and I write in my journal, you know, Brother Little spoke again today. I don't have a brother little in my ward. Don't worry. I'm not calling him out. But you know, you are brother. Anyway, just kidding. But the you know, Brother Little today spoke in my ward today, and I was really upset about what he had to say about X. And I write that in my journal the same day or maybe even while I'm there. Maybe I'm writing it. Maybe I brought my journal to church because I'm not paying attention. Whatever that captures what I'm feeling in that exact moment. Now, that can sometimes be a negative thing in the sense that what if I don't ever talk about Brother Little again? I stopped keeping my journal and someone finds my journal, you know, 200 years from now, and they're really bored.

Gerrit They listen to multiple parts of this podcast. They might as well read this. And the impression they would get is, boy, that Dirkmaat guy, he's got a real problem with this little. What they don't know is literally the next day. I met the guy, had a conversation with him. We became the best of friends for the next 40 years. You don't know that because that's not what's written down. So you also have to be careful the fact that journals give us a snapshot into what someone is thinking in the moment at the time. They don't tell us what someone is thinking for the next 40 years of their life, but often that's how people use them, right? So they can be used inappropriately too. Reminiscent accounts are accounts that people make after the fact. And the further away you get from the event, the more likelihood there is that memories might fail, that you're now interpreting things on the basis of what actually happened, as opposed to what you were thinking at the time.

Gerrit So let's say, you know, I decide I'm going to write a life history, and I remember, what do I remember about my war? Oh, you know what? I remember that guy made me so mad in his talk he gave. I'm writing it 20 years later. You know what? One time I was in church and a guy I don't quite remember his name, Brother Wittgenstein. I can't remember. He said, and so I'm going to get some of the some of the facts. I'm just going to get wrong because no one can remember things like that. But I also might color what I'm remembering on the basis of the thousands of other talks that I've heard, right? They might. They might color what it is that I'm thinking. So historians look, it's not like we throw out reminiscing accounts, but we want to be cautious with them just because someone says, you know what, 50 years ago I had a conversation with Joseph Smith and they give you all kinds of details. Doesn't it? You wouldn't then say Joseph Smith obviously said, you would say, according to one account made many years later, this person said that Joseph said this.

Richard What about published versus private records?

Gerrit Well, so there is a big difference if I'm publishing something in my time period, then I know everyone's going to see it. If I publish a letter to the editor, the entire point is that other people are going to read the letter to the editor. That's not the same thing with the texts I'm sending to Richard. I have no intention of publishing those, or maybe I do maybe later in life. If I run for political office, if Richard runs for political office, we will certainly make sure. But you know, what does that mean? It means that documents that you don't intend to be public have a greater likelihood of actually presenting what someone thinks. I mean, there's a reason why there are hot mic moments, right? Because what does that mean? It means someone says what they really are thinking when other people can hear when they don't actually think they can hear. And it happens all the time, right? Where someone thinks that they're on, I mean, it happens a lot in the Zoom age, right?

Gerrit Where someone thinks they're muted, like, boy, this is the worst teaching we've ever had. And someone's like, brother Johnson, you're, you're unmuted. I mean, right. Which maybe it was the worst teaching, but I'm guessing he didn't want that to go out as, as, as live. At any rate, the, the point is that, that when you reflect back on event, there's all kinds of things that can affect it. Your memory, the time, the other circumstances that happen. And if you're wanting to present something publicly, then there's all kinds of things that can affect it as well. I mean, if one way that, that is really easy for people to understand this is, if you served a mission, think about the letters or now maybe emails or even the phone calls that you sent to your mom or your dad and what you actually said in those. Now I'm guessing you weren't lying to your parents. You weren't saying like, Oh, I, you know, baptized a hundred today, you know, right?

Gerrit But you probably figured out very quickly that your parents were not in a position to fully understand what was going on on your mission. And that if you said to your mom, Hey, I kind of had a headache today, she translated that into you had a severe concussion riding your bike and are losing consciousness at all times. Right. You, you learned, well, I can share a certain level of information with them, but they won't understand. So, so who you're writing to also makes a difference in what you say. If I'm the secretary of state and I'm writing an internal email to the assistant secretary of state, well, what I say is going to be a lot different than what my response is when I'm asked by Fox News, why I did something right that the audience matters, the public nature of it matters. All those things have to be factored in when it comes to sources. At any rate, this is Willard Richards Journal because it's his journal. It's going to be kind of choppy and broken up, but you, you can see these.

Gerrit You have images. I'm going to read the part where the martyrdom takes place. So you can see what he wrote at the time. They talk about they'd gotten a bottle of wine and they just shared some with the guards. And the guard who just tasted the wine that they had, the guard who turned to go out when at the stairs top, someone below called him two or three times. So he hears someone yelling his name, the guard does. He went down, a little rustling at the door, the cry surrender and discharge of three or four arms followed instantly. So this is again, Willard Richards Journal, it's very choppy what's going on here. And so he's explaining that they just shared some wine with the guard. The guard gets to the top of the stairs. Someone yells his name. He turns to go down because they were yelling it multiple times. So, you know, Bill, Bill, Bill or maybe Frank, Frank, Frank.

Gerrit I doubt they were sharing the wine with Frank. Maybe that's why he was so mad. But and the cry, surrender and a distance. So three or four shots are full of fired almost instantly after that cry. Surrender back to the record. Dr. Glantz and I by the curtain. Saw 100 armed men around the door. So this is him, I guess, seeing out the window that he sees 100 armed men coming up towards there. And the 100 actually is written in later. So it's actually left blank there. So maybe he wasn't sure how many and then wrote that in later. At any rate, Joseph Hyrum and Taylor, their coats were off. So Joseph Hyrum and Taylor's coats were off. Joseph sprang to his coat for his six shooter. Hyrum for his single barrel. Taylor for his, and he originally writes club actually, which kind of gives you an idea of how they're using this weapon.

Gerrit Taylor for his club, scratches it out, cane. Doctor for Taylor's cane all sprang against the door. The balls whistled up the stairway, and in an instant, one came through the door. So they can hear the shooting, and then a shot comes through the door. Joseph, Taylor and Richards sprang to the left, Hyrum back in front of the door and stopped, sorry, and snapped his pistol. So Hyrum then shot his pistol, you know, essentially. When a ball struck him in the left side of his nose, fell back on the floor saying, I am a dead man. Joseph discharged his six-shooter in the entry, reaching around the door. The door continued to discharge, continued discharges came in the room.

Gerrit Six-shooter misfired two or three times. Taylor sprang to leap from the east window, was shot in the window. And that's it. He stops it right there. So he then goes on to say what happens on June 28th, but that's the end of what he has recorded in his journal of Taylor getting shot. He actually doesn't finish that explanation off of what happens to Joseph. He's not there in his journal, and then you get that from that. So it is odd that we didn't use the earliest account, but you can kind of get the idea that it does seem very similar to what they are going to later say. But now let's talk a little bit about what, say, John Taylor said when he, when I said he has this empathy for Hyrum and Joseph. I mean, this is from his published account where after John Taylor is wounded, after Joseph goes out of the window, one of the things that Taylor is drug into that small cell, and Richard's response to John Taylor is, I'm going to quote now from John Taylor's account.

Gerrit Brother Richard was very much troubled and exclaimed, Oh, Brother Taylor, is it possible that they have killed both Brother Hyrum and Joseph? It cannot surely be, and yet I saw them shoot him. And elevating his hands two or three times, he said, Oh, Lord, my God, spare thy servants. He then said, Brother Taylor, this is a terrible event. And he dragged me further into the cell, saying, I am sorry, I cannot do better for you. And taking an old filthy mattress, he covered me with it and said, This may hide you, and you may yet live to tell the tale, but I expect that they will kill me in a few moments. While lying in this position, I suffered the most excruciating pain. Soon afterwards, Dr. Richards came to me, informing me the mob had precipitously fled. And at the same time confirming my worst fears, that Joseph was assuredly dead. I felt a dull, lonely, sickening sensation at the news, when I reflected that our noble chieftain, the prophet of the living God had fallen, and that I had seen his brother in the cold embrace of death.

Gerrit It seemed as though there was an open void or vacuum in the great field of human existence to me, a dark and gloomy chasm in the kingdom. And then we were left alone. Oh, how lonely was that feeling, how cold and barren and desolate. In the midst of difficulties, Joseph was always the first in motion. In critical position, his counsel was always sought. As our prophet, he approached our God and obtained for us his will. But now our prophet, our counselor, our general, our leader was gone. And amid the fiery ordeal that we then had to pass through, we were left alone without his aid. And as our future guide for things spiritual or temporal, and for all things pertaining to this world or the next, he had spoken for the last time on earth. These reflections and a thousand others flashed upon my mind. I thought, why must the good perish and the virtuous be destroyed? Why must God's nobility, the very salt of the earth, the most exalted of the human family, the most perfect type of all excellence, fall victim to the cruel and fiendish hate of incarnate devils?

Gerrit Soon afterwards, I was taken to the head of the stairs and laid there, where I had a full view of our beloved and now murdered brother Hyrum. There he lay as I had left him. He had not moved a limb. He lay placid and calm, a monument of greatness even in his death. But its noble spirit had left his tenement and was gone to dwell in regions more congenial to his exalted nature. Poor Hyrum, he was a great and a good man. And my soul was cemented to his. If there ever was an exemplary, honest, virtuous man, an embodiment of all that is noble in the human family, Hyrum Smith was its representative. You can kind of feel, even in just the reading of that, what John Taylor had as a love for both Joseph and Hyrum Smith. But as another example, on the anniversary of the martyrdom in 1854, he's speaking in a sermon where both Brigham and John Taylor are lamenting.

Gerrit Now, what's interesting is actually John Taylor got so upset and so impassioned whenever he talked about the murders of Joseph and Hyrum that there's actually an instance of Brigham Young on one of the anniversaries saying, I don't really want John Taylor to speak because he's just going to rile us all up. He's going to bring about these feelings that will upset us because John Taylor was bitter and angry. Now, he did have a bullet in the back of his knee for the rest of his life from what happened in Carthage. And so the fact that he was there when his friends were murdered is something that drives his disaffection with the United States. That's what drives his feeling that the church needs to get out because he believes his friends were murdered and no one did anything about it. Far from the conspiracy of John Taylor made sure no one would testify.

Gerrit John Taylor is disgusted with the fact that people can murder prophets of the living God and no one cares. The reality is something that you feel. So again, this is from the transcript of an unpublished sermon. So it's not going to be, there's going to be some editing issues with that. But in it, John Taylor says, I'm called upon to address this congregation a little this afternoon. I do so with pleasure. Although at the same time, the things we have heard this morning, the reflections that then revolve through my mind in relation to these matters, produce rather painful feelings. But the things referred to by President Young this morning, seemed as if it were to be fresh before my mind. Things of late and old circumstances, things of other would seem as they were to obliterate, unless our minds were refreshed by them. There's something very pleasing about these matters, pleasing to me and my brethren. It's pleasing to know that we are the disciples of as good a man as Joseph Smith.

Gerrit He was a man that lived in the fear of God and taught his fear to us, who was faithful all his life long until his death. It is pleasing to reflect upon our association with a man of this kind and also with Brother Hyrum. It is to me. I am happy to be associated with the Church and Kingdom of God. I feel thankful to my Heavenly Father that I live in this day and age of the world when the light of truth and the everlasting Gospel is shown forth. I consider it one of the greatest blessings and privileges that can be proffered upon me as an individual next to the Spirit of God so brooding upon my mind as to cause me to yield obedience to the Gospel and to participate in blessings associated therewith. I was blessed to be associated with the Prophet Joseph Smith. As President Young said he knew him, so did I. I've been with him under all kinds of circumstances. When the thick clouds of darkness gathered around and earthquakes seemed to bellow and threaten destruction.

Gerrit When the forces of the earth were rallied against him and also in times of prosperity. I've heard him, as many of you have heard him, speak in public to advance the principles of eternal truth and to plead with the people to observe the laws of God and to keep his commandments that they might be prepared for a celestial inheritance. But I've also been with Joseph in private council. So I've had the opportunity of becoming acquainted with his feelings, his ideas, with his views, and with his morality, with his truthfulness, with his integrity. And I know that he was a good man, that he was an honest man, that he was a man of integrity, that he was a prophet of the Lord and that he lived in that capacity and that he died in that capacity and that he maintained his integrity to the end. I was not only with Joseph living, but I was with him dying. And this is my testimony concerning Joseph Smith. I know before God and Holy Angels, I do not think it. I know it. I know that he was a servant of God and a prophet of the Lord, and that he lived and died in the faith.

Gerrit And I not only know it by my natural sight, but by the revelations of God. And I know by the same way that he yet lives because I have seen him. And I know that he lives. And therefore, I rejoice in the testimony I can bear concerning him. I know that he will live, and I know that he is a friend of this people and watching over their interests. I know that he's a friend of President Young and watches over him, and is most interested in the welfare and happiness and exaltation of the saints of the Most High. And having a knowledge of these things sustains my mind and comforts my heart and strengthens me in the faith of the new and everlasting covenant, and in the principles of truth that we continue to hear. I rejoice myself exceedingly to be associated with brethren such as I am with at the present time, men who fear God and keep His commandments, men whose first desire it is to keep the law of God, to roll forth His purposes to the benefit of the human family in order that they may be prepared by and by to enter into more extensive field and participate in the blessings in wait for them.

Gerrit I esteem it as one of the greatest blessings conferred upon me to anticipate in this priesthood that is the government of God in the heavens and upon the earth, the rules and regulates and controls all the affairs of the eternal worlds. And when the will of God shall be done on earth as it is in heaven, that it will rule and control and regulate all the forces of this earth. I rejoice then to participate in the blessings of this gospel and priesthood, and I look upon everything else as short-lived and temporal. Whether it is riches or poverty, ease or pain, whether it is prosperity or adversity, no matter the circumstance may be in which I or in which you may be placed, it is of very little importance to us. If those circumstances we are placed in have a tendency to lead us nearer to God and to make us more susceptible to his laws and to make us obedient to his command, that we may fulfill our destiny on the earth and be prepared to join with Joseph and Hyrum and with those that have lived in the faith and died in the faith of the Son of God.

Gerrit For Hyrum was a good man and a servant of the living God, a man of integrity and truthfulness, and I saw him fall when he fell in prison, and I heard the last words he spoke, and I know that the desire of Joseph and Hyrum was to promote peace, whatever may have been the feelings of those that were around. Their private and public feelings was to promote the happiness and well-being of the human family. The worst feeling I ever saw manifested by either of them was to procure the happiness and well-being of the human family as God should give them the ability to do it. These were their private and public feelings, the feelings they manifested before public congregations before the world and in private council, and under all circumstances. And although there are thousands of falsehoods in circulation concerning them, and although many of those falsehoods are believed by the people yet, this was the bona fide feeling of these servants of God while they lived upon the earth. And I know it.

Gerrit Did ever anybody hear them teach unrighteous principles? No. Did anyone ever see them practice unrighteous conduct? No. As President Young said, they were men. And they were perhaps the best men that lived. They might have had some little weaknesses and foibles like other men. But if they had been better, they would not have been fit to associate with this people. They were men of God and lived and died in the faith of that gospel they preached. And they did it sincerely with honest hearts before God and men. And therefore, I feel pleasure in testifying of these things. I've borne that same testimony. I've done it here and in different nations and before large congregations. And I know some people don't like especially abroad to say it. But these have been my feelings here, and they will be to the day of my death and through eternity. John Taylor spends the remainder of his life desperately trying to convince everyone he meets that Joseph Smith and Hyrum Smith were prophets of God.

Gerrit John Taylor has a life, a lived experience of caring about Joseph and what Joseph taught more than any detractor could ever hope to think in their hundreds of trips to Carthage. The evidence of John Taylor's life in his private life and his public life was that he loved Hyrum Smith, that he loved Joseph Smith. And unlike the makers of this film or other detractors, actually did suffer, actually did get shot multiple times, actually did walk with a limp because he suffered in that defense of Joseph Smith, was persecuted, walked across the wastelands of America to settle beside the Salt Lake. And then even with that, because he refused to abandon the teachings that Joseph Smith had given them, at least until God said otherwise, is going to live the last years of his life and die in hiding.

Gerrit Because he knew Joseph Smith had taught that principle. So people who want to defame the Prophet John Taylor, they have every source that exists against them by both his life and his words, by his experiences and his actions. And frankly, it makes me sick that men who sacrifice as much as they did, John Taylor and Willard Richards, would be defamed in this insulting, paltry and frankly idiotic manner, in a desperate attempt to try to make their own apostasy seem somehow justified. The reality is, those men were prophets and apostles of God, and they bore greater testimony to Joseph Smith and the truth than anyone else of their time.

Gerrit So we're going to leave this topic. Hopefully, it was of some interest to people. But hopefully, what you can take away from this is, don't allow your faith to be casually swayed by the people that are practicing a chicanery of their own, as they claim some kind of inside knowledge, as they claim some kind of inside expertise, as they seek to get you to doubt what the Holy Spirit of God tells you in your heart, and that is, this church is true. That feeling is better than however many hours someone claims they spent working on a contrary argument. Only the Holy Spirit of God can tell you that this church is true. The Holy Spirit of God hopefully has told you that. I know it's told me that, and that's a testimony that I share with all of you. Thank you so much. Join us again next week.

Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.

Quote board

Make a share card from any line

How do you describe something, it's kind of like, you know, how do you describe a rose? Well, how do you describe something that's very much not a rose?

My methods two final exam was 17 hours long.

First, you can't make anything up. If you don't have a source that says it, then you can't say that it happened.

You know, you worked really hard, grandpa. Yeah, so do washing machines.

It's just Big Pharma is keeping you out of that. I played so much operation.

And once you claim to be the expert, you don't get to not know central documents related to the claim you're making.

Is that a 19th century term for hanging someone?

And maybe it's because the theory is not a good theory.

John Taylor has a life, a lived experience of caring about Joseph and what Joseph taught more than any detractor could ever hope to think in their hundreds of trips to Carthage.

Only the Holy Spirit of God can tell you that this church is true. The Holy Spirit of God hopefully has told you that. I know it's told me that, and that's a testimony that I share with all of you.

Source shelf

20 sources cited on air · verses link to the scriptures, Joseph Smith’s documents to the Joseph Smith Papers

other

"Who Killed Joseph Smith?" video (director named on air as Justin Griffin)

The video discussed across both parts.

record

Katharine Smith Salisbury, 1894 interview on Joseph's last sermon

I shall never forget Saturday, June 23rd, 1844, when I last saw my brothers alive. I heard brother Joseph's last sermon delivered to a great audience in Nauvoo

Quoted in the film as if from 1844; it was recorded 50 years later, when she belonged to the Reorganized Church.

sermon

Joseph Smith, last address to the Nauvoo Legion, June 1844 (later account)

This day the Lord shone unto me, which was never shown before, that I have thousands of friends while others have sought to crawl into my bosom because of my good feelings towards them. And now are they vipers and seek my life.

One of two fuller accounts; it mentions false friends turned vipers but points to no one on the stand.

Find it in the Joseph Smith Papers →

sermon

Joseph Smith, last address to the Nauvoo Legion, the drawn sword

I have drawn my sword, and it will never be sheathed again until vengeance is taken on all of our enemies.

The better-known part of the speech, as read by Gerrit.

Find it in the Joseph Smith Papers →

book

Dallin H. Oaks and Marvin S. Hill, Carthage Conspiracy

Their investigation largely discredited William Daniels's account of Joseph being executed by the well. Said on air as "Mount Vernon Hill"; the co-author is Marvin S. Hill.

record

William Daniels's account, as copied into the Church history

For over a hundred years the standard Church telling had Joseph executed on the ground outside the jail.

article

Denver Snuffer's website, review of the film

Gerrit guessed Snuffer would praise it and found a glowing review.

scripture

Matthew 10:28

fear not them that can destroy the body, but fear them that can destroy both the body and the soul

Why matters of faith aren't trivial (identified, not cited on air).

Read Matthew 10:28 →

letter

General Minor Deming to Joseph and Hyrum Smith, Headquarters Carthage, June 26, 1844

I have caused the officers of the guard to be correctly instructed of his duties so that you need not suffer further inconvenience.

Deming ordered the guard to stop turning away visitors without passes, which explains why people came and went.

record

Dan Jones, 1847 account of the martyrdom

Early in the morning of the 27th of June, eventful day, a day ever to be remembered, the prophet requested me to descend and interrogate the guards as to the cause of the intrusion upon us in the night.

The film's source for the mob only wanting to hang Joseph; the full text has the guards threatening to shoot.

record

Dan Jones's account, the sergeant's threat

We've had too much trouble to bring old Joe here to ever let him escape out alive.

Sergeant Worrell of the Carthage Greys, later killed by Porter Rockwell.

record

Dan Jones's account, a guard's rifle

one of them leveled and cocked his rifle at me, swearing with an awful implication how he would, quote, would love to bore a hole through old Joe

The part the film left out.

record

Dan Jones's account, Governor Ford's reply

You are unnecessarily alarmed for your friends and safety, sir. The people are not that cruel.

Ford dismisses the warning before leaving for Nauvoo.

newspaper

Anti-Mormon newspapers near Carthage, 1844 (not named on air)

They reported Joseph wounding mob members to recast the murders as a jailbreak.

journal

Willard Richards journal, June 27, 1844

Joseph sprang to his coat for his six shooter. Hyrum for his single barrel.

The earliest account, timestamped; "club" is crossed out for "cane" and the number 100 written in later.

journal

Willard Richards journal, Hyrum's death

When a ball struck him in the left side of his nose, fell back on the floor saying, I am a dead man.

Hyrum's last words recorded the same day.

record

John Taylor's published account of the martyrdom

This may hide you, and you may yet live to tell the tale, but I expect that they will kill me in a few moments.

Willard Richards hides the wounded Taylor under a mattress.

record

John Taylor's published account, on Hyrum

Poor Hyrum, he was a great and a good man. And my soul was cemented to his.

Taylor's tribute to Hyrum, which Gerrit says goes even further than his praise of Joseph.

sermon

John Taylor, unpublished sermon on the martyrdom anniversary, June 27, 1854

I know before God and Holy Angels, I do not think it. I know it.

Read from a transcript; Taylor bears testimony that he knows Joseph was a prophet.

record

Council of Fifty minutes

John Taylor's words about Joseph there, which the film doesn't use.

Find it in the Joseph Smith Papers →

More from this episode

Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.

Claim check

What critics say, and what the episode found

Joseph's sister wrote in 1844 that Joseph pointed out the men on the stand who would betray him.

The church has always taught that Joseph was shot in the window and fell.

The mob at Carthage only meant to hang Joseph, not shoot him.

Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.

Take it to class

Ready to copy into a lesson or a text

Two rules for reading history: don't make anything up, and don't leave anything out.

Always ask when a source was written. A memory recorded 50 years later is not the same as a journal written that day.

Claiming thousands of hours of work doesn't replace reading the central documents; you worked really hard, grandpa, but so do washing machines.

John Taylor's life and words, a bullet he carried the rest of his life and a testimony he bore everywhere, are the best answer to anyone who calls him Joseph's murderer.

Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.

Banter bin

The running jokes, for people who skip ahead

Hundreds of yearsKatharine's 50 years becomes hundreds, then two millennia, then the Pleistocene; Justin Griffin believes thousands of years (2:39, 13:17, 14:18).

Against Gerrit's willPart two happens against Dr. Dirkmaat's will, and he can barely title it (0:39).

Methods class is Protestant hellAnd Richard's methods two final ran 17 hours (10:28).

Thousands of hoursGerrit doubts the 3,000 hours; Richard notes the filmmaker went to Nauvoo at least twice and built a set (31:16).

Big Pharma and OperationA surgeon with no degree who's watched thousands of surgeries and played a lot of Operation (32:34).

Dan LeDuc's favorite personRichard alerts his dad that Frank Worrell, later shot by Porter Rockwell, is coming up (44:53).

Episodes promised, never madeJoseph and Masonry is part 11 of the 12-part podcast, and Richard has eight more items (49:58, 55:24).

Wolverine and the governorDan Jones calls Governor Ford's heart adamantine, long before Wolverine (49:58).

Brother LittleAn imaginary ward member in Gerrit's journal, who doesn't exist, and the 200-years-later reader who gets the wrong idea (1:03:05).

Brigham Young the easy mark"Ah, crazy Uncle Brigham. It's always Brigham" (21:23, 28:56).

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

Your question could be next week’s episode

Questions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.

Go deeperWhere to read more.

Go deeper

Deep dives the episode points toward

Read Dan Jones's full 1847 account of the last night and morning at Carthage (43:56).

Look up Minor Deming, the evangelical militia general Gerrit promises a future episode on (35:58).

Read Carthage Conspiracy by Dallin H. Oaks and Marvin Hill on the trial and William Daniels (13:17).

Compare Willard Richards's journal for June 27, 1844 with his published "Two Minutes in Jail" (1:09:28).

Read John Taylor's full published martyrdom account, especially his tribute to Hyrum (1:13:53).

SOT Litner · S2E6.

Carthage Conspiracy Part 2

Chapters

Transcript

Quote board

Source shelf

"Who Killed Joseph Smith?" video (director named on air as Justin Griffin)

Katharine Smith Salisbury, 1894 interview on Joseph's last sermon

Joseph Smith, last address to the Nauvoo Legion, June 1844 (later account)

Joseph Smith, last address to the Nauvoo Legion, the drawn sword

Dallin H. Oaks and Marvin S. Hill, Carthage Conspiracy

William Daniels's account, as copied into the Church history

Denver Snuffer's website, review of the film

Matthew 10:28

General Minor Deming to Joseph and Hyrum Smith, Headquarters Carthage, June 26, 1844

Dan Jones, 1847 account of the martyrdom

Dan Jones's account, the sergeant's threat

Dan Jones's account, a guard's rifle

Dan Jones's account, Governor Ford's reply

Anti-Mormon newspapers near Carthage, 1844 (not named on air)

Willard Richards journal, June 27, 1844

Willard Richards journal, Hyrum's death

John Taylor's published account of the martyrdom

John Taylor's published account, on Hyrum

John Taylor, unpublished sermon on the martyrdom anniversary, June 27, 1854

Council of Fifty minutes

Episode quiz

When did Katharine Smith actually give the account the film quotes?

Fun with Numbers

From 1844 to 1894

Putting numbers to words

What this episode talks about more than usual

Names said most

Signature words

More from this episode

Claim check

Take it to class

Banter bin

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

Go deeper

Carthage Conspiracy Part 2

Part two, against Gerrit's will

"Who Killed Joseph Smith?" video (director named on air as Justin Griffin)

Katharine Smith Salisbury, 1894 interview on Joseph's last sermon

Joseph Smith, last address to the Nauvoo Legion, June 1844 (later account)

Joseph Smith, last address to the Nauvoo Legion, the drawn sword

Dallin H. Oaks and Marvin S. Hill, Carthage Conspiracy

William Daniels's account, as copied into the Church history

Denver Snuffer's website, review of the film

Matthew 10:28

General Minor Deming to Joseph and Hyrum Smith, Headquarters Carthage, June 26, 1844

Dan Jones, 1847 account of the martyrdom

Dan Jones's account, the sergeant's threat

Dan Jones's account, a guard's rifle

Dan Jones's account, Governor Ford's reply

Anti-Mormon newspapers near Carthage, 1844 (not named on air)

Willard Richards journal, June 27, 1844

Willard Richards journal, Hyrum's death

John Taylor's published account of the martyrdom

John Taylor's published account, on Hyrum

John Taylor, unpublished sermon on the martyrdom anniversary, June 27, 1854

Council of Fifty minutes

When did Katharine Smith actually give the account the film quotes?

From 1844 to 1894

Putting numbers to words

What this episode talks about more than usual

Names said most

Signature words