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S3E1 · The Trinity and the Nature of God
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Standard of Truth · Season 3 · Episode 1 · 1:04:48

The Trinity and the Nature of God

Martin Luther questioned nearly everything about the Catholic Church, except who the Catholic Church said God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit were.

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The question ·
Are most Christians essentially polytheists, or am I so caught up in my Latter-day Saint upbringing that I've been blind to all these years what they truly believe?
John (listener)

Season three opens with Richard finally getting his name in the intro, a few kind emails, and Gerrit explaining why the two of them joke so much. Then John asks whether most Christians really believe in the Trinity or are quietly polytheists. Gerrit says yes, Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant Christians all hold to the Trinitarian God, and explains why what John described is actually the old heresy of modalism. He walks through why Christians count themselves monotheists, how they see outsiders as a long string of heresies, and why the charge of polytheism stings. He lands on the point that Latter-day Saints should count as Christians, because they believe salvation comes only through Jesus.

Who comes upJesus ChristMartin LutherAbraham
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My name's in the intro

Richard welcomes everyone to season three and celebrates making it into the opening credits.

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Gerrit One announcement I wanted to make real quick is that we've actually had a few seats become available for our June Standard of Truth Tour. This is that tour that's going to Boston and a bunch of the American history sites, and then to the church history sites in Harmony and in Palmyra, and eventually ending off in Kirtland. So if you are interested in that, go to standardoftruth.com and look under the tour link and you can get the details there.
Other Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode in a new season of the Standard of Truth Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. Welcome to season three of the Standard of Truth Podcast.
Gerrit Sounded like for a second you weren't sure what the name of the podcast was.
Richard Welcome to season three of Whatever This Is. We're very excited.
Gerrit Richard, he's starting to mail it in a little bit. I feel like-
Richard I recently got my name in the intro. Welcome to the new intro.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard It's very exciting to get my name on the-
Gerrit On the master?
Richard Yeah, on the marquee.
Gerrit Yeah. I think it's safe to say that you have arrived when you are part of the intro.
Richard It's very nice.
Gerrit Just wait till you get that PhD in hand. Oh my gosh. I mean, when he's Dr. LeDuc, can you imagine the new intro will be something like, Dr. LeDuc with sometime special guest. Gerrit Dirkmaat. I'm pretty sure that this is going to be the Standard of Truth Podcast brought to you by President LeDuc at some point in the future.
Richard Well, it was very, very nice for the few contributions that I make as I poorly read emails. We are very excited to be in season three. This is a lot of fun. We really are so grateful for the listeners and the kind emails that they send and the wonderful support that they give. And so we want to start this beginning, this episode one of season three out with a bang by reading a series of emails that just say wonderful things about us. And then kind of-
Gerrit Because maybe you're tuning into the podcast for the first time. Yes. You might have just barely, someone shared this with you and they said, no, no, you should listen to this. It's really good. And already you're thinking, this isn't good.
Richard No.
Gerrit So we need to have testimonials.
Richard That's right. To let you know that other people think that it's good.
Gerrit Other emails that we invented, people that we invented and then wrote to ourselves.
Richard So we're going to read those emails saying how wonderful we are. And then we're going to recap-
Gerrit Demonstrate how terrible we actually are.
Richard By recapping a three-parter that we did. So we're starting season three with part three and a half of our Mormon's Christian. Spoiler alert, we don't know yet.
Gerrit No, we don't know. We're going to find out. We need people coming back to the well.
Richard That's right. All right. So this comes to us from Jason. If you guys ever stop doing the podcast, I'm quitting the church and it's on you. Right?
Gerrit That's a lot of pressure on us.
Richard It is. Well, if we cared about Jason, it would be. I'm sorry, Jason. I never would have thought I could learn so much and laugh so much listening to a history podcast. You guys are awesome. Keep it up, Jason. That's very kind.
Gerrit Very nice, Jason.
Richard Thank you very, very much.
Gerrit Please stay in the church regardless. At some point, our money losing operation that this is, is going to catch up to us. On the bright side, I'm not a businessman or an economist. And so I somehow think the deficit spending on producing the podcast will work out in the end.
Richard Yes. We wanted to wait to release the premium content until the economy was completely in the toilet.
Gerrit That's our plan. Our plan is to wait for a recession and then see if we can find a way to pay for the podcast.
Richard Yeah, that's right. People have less discretionary income. You know what? Premium content. Dear Dr. Dirkmaat and soon to be Dr. LeDuc, not at my current pace, by the way.
Gerrit This is another email.
Richard This is another email. Yes, yes. I look forward to each Thursday and your podcast. I have no questions about the history of the church nor its authenticity. First of all, Danette, this is already the makings of a great email. You think we're great and you have no questions.
Gerrit I would like her to email us every week. Can we get several more emails like that?
Richard But your podcast has strengthened my testimony of the church and those who have led the church in the past and are leading the church currently. My most favorite part and the parts I appreciate most are your strong testimonies of the gospel and the leaders of the church. Thank you for strengthening my testimony with your testimonies. Danette, thank you very much.
Gerrit That's a very kind thing, Danette. Look, Richard and I do joke around a lot on the podcast, and part of that is because, look, we're best friends and we love just hanging out with each other. And it's kind of fun to just share that with other people. And I realize we're not everyone's cup of tea. I mean, I've already heard, don't worry from several people who've let me know that I'm far too jovial and that only if I were dour and speaking in hush tones the entire podcast, would I really have a testimony. But hopefully no one takes the fact that we love life and we love talking about the gospel and history, that they take it as some kind of a detriment to what it is we believe, because this podcast starts and ends with the fact that we believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and that we believe that President Nelson is a prophet of God and everything in between.
Gerrit And that doesn't mean that there's messy aspects of history that we have to kind of sort out and parse out and try to find answers for. But that's what our hope is. Our hope is that someone listening can find themselves strengthened. Someone listening who has a serious question might say, you know what, maybe the YouTuber that I'm listening to that's telling me all about how Joseph wasn't a prophet, maybe they aren't as educated as they think they are. And then for others, hopefully it prevents them from having questions of faith at some point in the future. I mean, I desperately want everybody to believe. I'm not pretending here in the sense that, you know, everyone who's listening to the podcast knows that I have a testimony of the church. It really is a part of who I am. And I realize that there are some people who listen who don't have a testimony at all. And they think that because I have a testimony that just places into question every single thing that I say.
Gerrit And I understand that perspective. But the my rebuttal to that would be at least I have examined those sources surrounding the thing that we're talking about. I'm not simply someone who's believing in a blind faith. You know, it's it is a quite often thing that I get called a sheep. Actually, it's very funny how often someone's like, well, you're just one of those sheep that follows the prophet. Yes, it's a terrible thing to be a sheep. My sheep hear my voice and they follow me. It's it. But the idea is that, well, you're just a mindless, you're just following after what the church says because you, you know, you have, you know, you're this blind, you know, willingness to follow and believe it is true that I believe and I follow what the church because the Holy Spirit has told me that the church is true, but it's anything but blind. And, and that would be my rebuttal to someone who says something otherwise.
Gerrit If, if your argument is the only reason why I, you know, say that I have a testimony is because I work for the church. Well, then you at least need to do the same amount of legwork I did to get to where we're at in, in, in, in understanding the sources surrounding the history of the church. That's available. Anyone can go to school and get a PhD in history. I mean, the fact that letting Richard get a PhD demonstrates legitimately anyone can go get a PhD.
Richard Oh, this speaks very poorly of Oklahoma state and their admission process. Yeah.
Gerrit I mean, I mean, honestly, right now, the Oklahoma state Cowboys, their first big problem Oklahoma going to the sec, their second big problem. Richard's going to be a graduate soon of their university.
Richard It is. I don't know if that's the second, maybe first.
Gerrit Only because T. Boone Pickens has passed away. Is that, is that a larger issue? But in all seriousness and hopefully our joviality doesn't, you know, turn people off. And if it does look at everybody learns differently and it, and in my life, what I've found is that when you talk about serious topics, it helps to, it helps to be a little bit jovial at times just because look, I'm not any better than anybody listening to this podcast. I'm frankly substantially worse than Danette or any of the other people that have emailed and Richard knows me personally. It's not about being a better, it's just the reality is I want to try to help people who are perhaps struggling with issues of church history and at least share with them the things I've learned from my time on the Joseph Smith Papers and working in church history and teaching religion at Brigham Young University.
Gerrit So anyway, thank you so much for the email. Both of those emails were awesome. And Richard, you got a couple more for us.
Richard I do, I do. So we have here one from Taylor. I thank you for creating the Standard of Truth Podcast. I love listening, though I only get to sporadically. First of all, Taylor, you know, do better.
Gerrit Yeah, I mean, yeah.
Richard Sporadically.
Gerrit No, not in life, Justin, how often you download the podcast.
Richard Actually, we don't care if you listen, just as long as you download.
Gerrit Yeah, we just need your downloads. We've got to drive those numbers.
Richard It helps that it's as close to truth as most podcasts get in that it touches upon things of eternity. But I also love listening to Dr. Dirkmaat and enjoy Dirkmaat and enjoy the way, his way of explaining church history and gospel doctrine. I hope that the podcast will go on in some form, possibly forever.
Gerrit Well, thank you, Taylor. Now, I do need to circle back to Richard's point that if you want us to go on forever, we're going to need you to listen to more often than sporadically. Thank you. That's really kind. And I'm very appreciative of the kind thoughts.
Richard Our next email comes to us relating to the topic that we ended season two on, the idea of Mormons being Christian. And it was a three-parter that went through a lot of different history going back, you know, all the way to Roman times to help to set the table for how by most Christian definitions, it is different. And one of the problems that people face is that they talk past each other as we talk to our Christian brothers and sisters, that even though we might be saying the same words, we're not understanding that they're not understanding and vice versa. So first of all, your treatment of this new topic is awesome. Terrific. Delivered with your brand of humor and so enlightening. Why so enlightening? One reason is because I've had these conversations with Protestant friends and neither of us knew the theology. And so we went round and round and round using the same vocabulary for different things.
Richard But you're explaining it from their point of view, not in any defensive way, just explaining it, and why there's a confusion. Also, the reasons for the variety of early Christian beliefs has been so helpful. I've never thought to ask, why would they come up with all these odd to me ideas about God up until now? They were all just a bunch of weird ancient beliefs. Next, from listening to all of this, what I am getting is that the creedal God is like some big old divine amoeba with one extension that presents the person of Christ, another that presents the Holy Ghost, and a third that presents the person of God the Father. Do they believe that the run-of-the-mill Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox Christian? Or do most run-of-the-mill folks think God and Christ are separate anthropomorphic persons? Are most Christians essentially polytheists, or am I so caught up in my Latter-day Saint upbringing that I've been blind to all these years what they truly believe?
Richard I mean, if most of the average Christians in those traditions believe this, it's crazy huge oversight in my understanding. Keep it up. And just so you know, this is the first time anyone has offered premium content about which I'm actually thinking, man, I cannot wait to fork over some money for that. I love these podcasts. John?
Gerrit Well, what a kind email. Now, first of all, we're talking about those premium podcasts. We plan to do several different types that are focused. One is just a general American history podcast. We've had multiple people actually email and say, I wish you'd just talk more about American history. I can only assume that means because what I do religion, I do it poorly. And so they're like, you know what? You seem to be-
Richard Los Evils are coming from me.
Gerrit The Guadalupe Hidalgo, you were all over that. Is there any way you could get more on tariffs? I appreciated what you had to say about Edward Jackson so very deeply, but please don't ever speak about my religion again.
Richard So that one is Condemned to Repeat It is the name of that, and it's a Standard of Truth production. So that'll be on the premium value. And then we have a couple of others.
Gerrit Yeah. And if you sign up for the premium, then you're also going to get access to a chronological history of the church that will kind of follow the history of the church from beginning as we release episodes, up through the end of the Joseph Smith in the early Brigham Young era probably, or whenever we get shut down. So probably early, early Sharon Vermont. But no, the plan is to kind of do it in a more chronological fashion so that if you're like, you know what, I want to kind of understand the unfolding of the church in order rather than from jumping from one aspect of Protestant God theology to another, some people might find that a little bit more helpful. And-
Richard And there we're looking to start with the Reformation to kind of show the radical nature of-
Gerrit As I say in that first podcast, the reason why we start kind of reflects John's email there. I find that most Latter-day Saints don't appreciate what it is that they believe, not because they don't love the church, but primarily because they don't really understand what it is that other Christians believe and why they believe them. And if they did, they would see Joseph Smith as far more radical than he is. And that separation is a helpful thing. And we're going to kind of talk about that here with this email. But that podcast is going to be called Joseph Smith and the Restoration. And again, it'll be part of our premium content.
Richard So I was just thinking, so Gerrit and I took a couple of philosophy classes together in college. And we had one particular professor that we took. It was Robson.
Gerrit We took every class we could. Robson.
Richard Robson. Great. Great.
Gerrit He was outstanding. He was someone born to be a university philosophy professor.
Richard So one of the things that was absolutely fantastic about him is, at least my understanding was, is that he was the only Latter-day Saint in the philosophy department. And the praise that he got from other philosophers within that department, as all he did was essentially cite Mormon doctrine.
Gerrit Well, he didn't say it was coming, but so for it, we took a class. Richard and I again took a class together. That way we could just cheat with each other's papers.
Richard You cheated on mine, sure.
Gerrit No, it happened all the time. Well, Angie actually took that class with us too. And she included a whole bunch of graphics in her final paper, charts, graphs, and she was trying to beef up the number of pages. I should have Angie come on the mic and tell us about that. She's trying to beef up the number of pages. And I'm like, Angie, half of your paper is just charts and graphs. You're not even writing anything. And she's like, no, no, they're good. It'll be fine. Now, Angie, of course, was getting a marketing and business degree, right? So she understood, apparently, presentation is everything, unlike, obviously, I don't have that degree. That's why this podcast is so terrible. I don't have the presentation as everything. So Angie, I have this conversation back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. She gets, I'm like, you really, you're going to have to write it. Gets the paper back, 100% on the paper. He's writing about, I love the fact you included so many charts and graphs. It was one of those times where early in the marriage, I realized that anytime I think Angie's wrong, I'm the one who's wrong.
Gerrit And that it was, it's been reiterated over and over again.
Richard So we took his philosophy of the New Testament course.
Gerrit Yeah. And we took a course from a different professor who just praised and praised and praised this guy.
Richard Loved him.
Gerrit He'd bring him up all the time. He's like-
Richard But he was just a genius.
Gerrit You know, it's so incredible. If any of you have taken a class from Professor Robson, he has this idea that even beyond Platonism, that we have all existed. Fascinating. Fascinating. You don't talk to anyone who thinks we've always all existed. Every Latter Day State, this is Cache Valley. It's 50% of the class. The whole class said, they're like, really? You don't say? Someone thinks that we existed before this life. It was great. Interesting.
Richard So, I don't even remember what we were talking about. Professor Robson, so it was just a radical nature of what comes to us from Joseph Smith. And so you need the reformation to kind of create a context for what that looks like.
Gerrit And then we are also going to do a separate podcast that Richard desperately wants to call Crinkling Leaves.
Richard Yeah, that NPR, it's like they're talking to somebody, they're doing an interview, is they're walking through the woods.
Gerrit And they've got the sound in the background, the muffled footsteps, the crunch, crunch, crunch. I came out here to find myself. It was only then that I realized I'd found eternity. Yeah, I mean, something like that. But it's actually going to be about the historic sites of the church. And we call it holy places from our past. And what we're going to do with each episode of that part of the premium content is we're going to probably have to cover in more than one episode, honestly. We're going to take a place like Harmony, Pennsylvania, and we're going to talk about the things that happened of significance in that place. And hopefully that'll be of use to people who are going to visit these places or people who just won't have the ability to go visit them. Our listener in Australia probably isn't making it to Palmyra anytime soon. Although if you come, I'm going to make a special trip out there to go there with you. That's incredible. But as a way of helping understand why these places are sacred to us and we'll kind of follow.
Gerrit That won't be as chronological. We'll go different place to place as a means of kind of, what might you hear if you were going to this place and we were having a conversation about the revelations, the miracles, the teachings of the church that unfolded in that particular historic side of the church. So that's what our premium content is. Again, we still have this free content. And if you're thinking right now, I wouldn't pay for this and I'm not paying for it. Don't worry.
Richard Yes. Welcome to the free content where for 20 minutes we talk about the premium content that you should all get.
Gerrit Yes. It's a wise marketing strategy. As soon as they get a little authority as they suppose.
Richard They immediately begin hawking their premium content. So anyway, going to this question then, we actually received quite a few emails about this idea of Mormons being Christian and it kind of echoed some of the sentiment that John expressed as it relates to, I kind of now am understanding how I've always just been talking past my Protestant friends. So we wanted to expand on that a little bit longer.
Gerrit Yeah, maybe spend a little bit more time on that, because this really is a really key issue. Now he asked a couple questions. Do most Christians, he said, Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, do they believe in this Trinitarian God? And the answer is yes. In fact, it is one of the things that is used to determine whether or not you are considered a Christian. When your Christian friend says you're not a Christian or that you worship a different Jesus than I do, the primary thing that they are thinking of when they say it is you don't believe in a Trinitarian God, the one in three and three in one. Now, they don't describe it the way that, you described it in your email as that you have one God and this is a presentation of one part and a presentation of another. They would call that modalism, that God has different fingers essentially, and this one, here comes pointer, here comes pointer, Holy Ghost or something.
Gerrit That's probably incredibly blasphemous, but that's not how they, I can't speak to how every individual, Christian views it. Richard's having a hard time with my nursery rhyme. Are you okay? Yeah, you sound okay. Most Christians, of course, I can't speak to every Christian, but in their theology, absolutely. They are almost all Trinitarian. There are some exceptions, but those exceptions are seen as a heresy. It is one of the fascinating aspects of the Protestant Reformation. And I think in part because it started with Martin Luther and not with John Calvin or other radical reformers, that there are parts of the early Christian theology that are absolutely maintained. The arguments that occur in the Reformation are almost entirely centered around how does someone get saved?
Gerrit Now, that is a question about salvation. But you'll notice it's not actually a question about the first principle, right? I mean, anyone who can recite to you the Articles of Faith, the first principles is God and Jesus, right? I mean, they actually aren't questioning that aspect. So Luther's entire issue is how is it that a sinner is saved? And his solution to that question is something that the Catholic Church is going to remonstrate again quite a bit. And other people are going to present other solutions as well that are all different. But the Protestant Reformation surrounds this argument over what is necessary for salvation? Is it faith alone that God just gives to me? Is it faith that I have to acquire myself? Are there some acts that I have to do in order to make the grace of Christ efficacious in my life?
Gerrit Are there still holy sacraments that need to be performed? But they don't, they stop short of reevaluating all of that tradition. And like I said, Martin Luther especially, now Martin Luther is going to rail against indulgences and against salvation as presented through the Catholic Church, and he is going to lose his mind over the idea of purgatory and salvation that comes through their works. Again, Catholics would not argue that salvation comes through works. This is just what Luther would say. So if you happen to be a Catholic listening, first of all, thank you for being so open-minded. Second of all, I'm not saying that that's what you believe.
Richard Third of all, have you thought about our premium content?
Gerrit I'm saying that that's what Luther said that you believed, and I think you're more than willing as a Catholic to believe that Martin Luther said some pretty negative things about you. If not, you really need to tune in to the premium content. It's always been fascinating to me that while the reformers are railing on the corruption of the Catholic Church, they stop short of rejecting the creedal statements that were derived under that same Catholic Church. So, the same Catholic Church that is saying that the Pope is Christ's vicar on earth, that he holds special authority passed down from Peter, that argument is going to be rejected by the reformers. But that same Pope who presides over the Council of Chalcedon and the Council of Constantinople and the Council of Nicaea that set the terms of what God is and who Jesus is and what his nature is, those things are unquestioned and they remain fundamental to Protestant and Catholic theology.
Gerrit Martin Luther is going to question every single thing there is about the Catholic Church, except who the Catholic Church says God is and who they say Jesus is and who they say the Holy Spirit is. That's actually a surprising thing when you think about it. While they are burning down the mansion, much like Lefty, you know, Lefty Lopez.
Richard Lefty Lopez of TLC fame, Andre Ryzen's mansion. That's right. That's a late 90s, mid 90s hit for those.
Gerrit You cannot be a TLC fan or an Atlanta Falcons fan. But if you are, you'll know what we're talking about. If not, you can Google it.
Richard And that was the problem. Ultimately, Martin Luther was chasing waterfalls.
Gerrit Yeah. Well, he went chasing waterfalls. But as far as the Catholics are concerned, if we have any Lutherans listening again, thank you for listening. I'm sure you tuned into this podcast by mistake and are wondering when we'll get to the point of talking about Sola Scriptura. But it is a fascinating when you say in your email, is this what all other Christians believe? Obviously, what an individual Christian believes is completely up to whoever you're talking to. I mean, I talk to Latter-day Saints all the time who say things to me, and all I'm thinking in my head is, like, not only do we not believe that as a church, I hate the idea that anyone believes that, but I'm nodding and smiling, like, okay, okay. Yet, no, we don't think that the Knights Templar are the...
Richard So I'll give you an example, a friend of ours that was a neighbor of ours. She grew up Catholic and is now, I believe, a Baptist living in Texas, and she does not believe that God and Jesus are the same essence or person or being, and also doesn't believe that her church believes or teaches that, right? And so, just because when you are, when you're hearing a general Baptist sermon, they're not necessarily getting into kind of the deeper theology of how that works.
Gerrit So that's kind of the caveat here, right? When you're talking, if you're talking to a specific friend, John, you kind of need to ask them, you know, what do you believe about God and why do you believe it? Now, some of the things that people believe about, you know, the Trinitarian theology, of course, you know, we point out one of them was added to the Bible later in the Middle Ages. But there are reasons why people might believe on both sides. When you say, do people naturally conceive of God and Jesus as being different? I think so, but again, not anthropomorphically. Certainly in the case of Jesus, all Christians believe, well, all traditional Christians, mainline Christians believe that Jesus has a body, that somehow Jesus has a body and that God doesn't have a body, but they're all the same God. And they don't like expressing it as, here's one appendage of God that's Jesus that has a body, and here's one appendage of God that's the Holy Spirit that doesn't.
Gerrit They would call that modalism and modalism is a heresy. They would say that an indescribable mystery that God, the Father who does not have a body, is the same God that is Jesus that does have a body, that is the same God that is the Holy Spirit, which does not have a body. They would recoil in horror at your suggestion that they are polytheists. In fact, you will find sometimes when you... Look, you don't get this in like a subreddit chat room when someone's just talking about why Mormons are going to burn in hell, but you do get it when you're having a higher theological discussion with a pastor, and it's not just all, what about polygamy and what about the Book of Mormon? When you're actually having a theological discussion about what you believe, it is an accusation that is leveled at times against Latter-day Saints.
Gerrit Christians would maintain that absolutely they are monotheists because God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit, those separate persons are all the same God in a way that is completely incomprehensible and then a way that you couldn't possibly know. Now, Latter-day Saints are not saying that. We are saying that God the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are absolutely unified in purpose. They are all in the Godhead is what we like to use, but there are three distinct beings that have always been distinct that are a part of that Godhead. And so, Christians will sometimes accuse Latter-day Saints of being polytheists. Now, you get into a whole semantic war of words when it comes to polytheism or monotheism because a Latter-day Saint might say, well, we only worship God the Father through Jesus Christ, so we're only worshiping God the Father, right?
Gerrit And oftentimes when a Christian levels that accusation that a Latter-day Saint is a polytheist, they aren't splitting hairs about whether you're worshiping God or Jesus. I mean, you only have to go to sacrament meeting on Sunday to know that we're singing hymns that are in worship of Jesus, right? Jesus, the very thought of thee, is clearly a worshipful song about Jesus. They would say that if you even believe that there is more than one God, that makes you a polytheist and therefore heretic. It was one of the reasons why, if you remember on our previous podcast, it's one of the reasons why Arius is considered a heretic. Because ultimately, what is he saying? That Jesus was created by the Father, and that means they are distinct and separate.
Gerrit So you'll actually find people saying that Mormons are modern day Arianists. It's not true. Certainly, Latter-day Saints don't believe that the same way, but it's how Christians conceive of those outside of their boundaries as one long string of heresies. Early Christian theologians, sorry, historians of early Christian theology, modern historians, they are pretty divided over how theological concepts developed over the course of time, in part because we have such limited sources. What seems to be pretty obvious by the time of the Council of Nicaea is there are lots of people that believe that God and Jesus are separate beings. If that wasn't the case, you would not need to have a Council of Nicaea. I mean, sometimes you can determine things on the basis of what the discussion is.
Gerrit You don't have to wonder if people were questioning what the nature of Jesus' human nature was and his godlike nature was. They have multiple councils trying to settle that question. Well, why is it a question? Because people are on both sides of the issue. It's kind of like you can get a Democrat and a Republican in a room and you can have an argument about taxes all day long. You can have an argument about government spending all day long, an argument. You don't find them arguing over whether or not brothers and sisters should be allowed to marry each other, right? Doesn't come up. And I know that some of you are going to send me some wry email jokes about that. But the point is, why aren't they arguing over that? Well, because that's a settled point of doctrine, or at least of culture, that that doesn't happen. What do you argue over? You argue over things that are on the margin.
Gerrit Republicans and Democrats are not arguing. We're going to turn this into a political podcast. We're going to do a political spinoff called Republicans and Democrats are not arguing. They are not arguing that there shouldn't be any taxes at all. You actually have to be pretty hard pressed to even find a libertarian who says that there shouldn't be any taxes at all, right? It's a question of how are they collected? Who should spend them? How should they be spent? Who should pay taxes? Who should have a right to have a say? All those are questions about whether or not, they're not questions about whether or not taxes should exist. They're questions about the nature of taxes, how many, how few, and what should be done with them. That is a good way of looking at these early Christian controversies. The question is surrounding the nature of them and how it is that they can be one God.
Gerrit Modern Christians aren't even asking that question anymore. And they see anyone who asks the question, are God and Jesus separate? They see that person as being fundamentally a heretic, which is the reason why your Protestant friend might see you as a heretic. They believe it's a matter of settled scripture, settled doctrine, settled history. There's a reason why Jehovah's Witnesses are often lumped in with Latter-day Saints as being not traditional Christians, because that claim that Latter-day Saints make, that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ are separate and distinct individuals. It doesn't matter how unified in purpose they might be, that they are two separate people, two different gods, if you have to say it that way. That alone causes the heresy. You asked the question of, is this what Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants believe?
Gerrit Again, when you talk about mainline Protestants, despite what Richard's friend believes at their local Baptist church, you can't find a Baptist who's arguing theologically that God and Jesus are separate individuals. Now, all of the Catholic conventions are going to say it. Baptists are actually very hard to pin down on what they believe, and I don't mean they're being cagey about it. The entire point of the Baptist church, the reason why it is founded is on the idea that only local individual churches have the ability to declare doctrine for their members, obviously using the Holy Bible and Holy Spirit. So that's the reason why you don't know whether or not a Baptist is a Calvinist or an Arminian or something in between just by finding out that they're a Baptist.
Richard So the question was, though, in terms of from a theological standpoint, the Orthodox, the Catholic and the Protestant absolutely line up to this.
Gerrit Except for the Orthodox. Let me give a caveat to that. If you recall, and this is pretty deep in there, so this is probably the time to stop listening. So go ahead and shut us off, tune into the premium content. The Orthodox actually have a slightly different view of the Trinity than Catholicism does. And that term Trinity actually comes through the Western Catholic tradition, not through the Eastern Orthodox. If you recall, they were having a debate about whether Jesus was the same essence as the Father or whether he was similar essence as the Father. And the Eastern Orthodox Churches, again, there's various different ones, so if you know of a caveat, yes, there are caveats. But the Eastern Orthodox Churches generally hold to that homo e ousion argument that God and Jesus are a similar substance or a similar essence, not that they are the same essence, which actually allows for a little bit more flexibility.
Gerrit I've actually talked to a converted Greek Orthodox guy who became a Latter-day Saint, and he felt like the Greek Orthodox tradition that God and Jesus were similar substance allowed him to much more readily embrace our teaching of the Godhead, because Catholics are arguing they're literally the same, that whatever Jesus is, God is. And the Orthodox was arguing that they are similar in the sense that they are, they look the same, they seem the same, they are, they're not literally the same. And that was a huge point of contention. It's actually one of the points of contention that prevents, obviously, there's all kinds of political considerations as well. But there have been several efforts of reproach mall between the Eastern Orthodox churches and the Catholic Church, because they have many very, very similar beliefs, as you might imagine. But one of the places where they really differ is in that argument about the phrasology of the nature of God and Jesus.
Gerrit So I do want to give that as a caveat to that. An Eastern Orthodox Christian would not, again, let's say we have a Catholic and an Eastern Orthodox who both really know what they believe, not just someone who goes to church once a year, okay? They would point out that they are dissimilar in their belief about how the Trinity interacts with one another.
Richard But that's why I'm saying that there is something within what is being taught by the church that the church believes, versus to John's point here, the rank and file, the person that's going to the church on Sunday, they might actually think of God and Jesus.
Gerrit And I think that's because it's so much easier to do. And look, Christians acknowledge that, people think of God as being a dude and having a body, because God says he creates man in his own image and likeness. But Christians don't believe that that extends to God having a body. They believe God is without body parts or passions. And that is such a fundamental statement. God is a spirit, and those who worship him must worship him in spirit and truth. I mean, that is adjusted by Joseph Smith in his revision to the New Testament. But that is a belief across all what you might call mainline Christians. And even like super evangelical, Pentecostal snake handlers in West Virginia, they are still going to have a fundamental belief that God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all one God.
Richard So then how then, so God and Jesus, okay, but God and the Holy Ghost then, what's the differentiation between that?
Gerrit It's a difference in function of what they're doing because the Holy Spirit is the bringer of truth. From a Calvinist perspective, which is what many of these religions branch off of, it is the Holy Spirit that delivers the faith that is the free gift from God that is based upon Jesus' sacrifice. Now look, very easily you can descend into, well, if God doesn't have a body and the Holy Spirit doesn't have a body, then I guess they're the same thing. I understand why someone would go to that point, but if you were in Christian school and it was back in the day, you'd have your knuckles wrapped with a ruler because that is absolutely not what they are arguing. And literally the Creed says exactly that. The Creed says, neither confounding the persons, now confounding the persons, what does that mean? Confusing them for each other, right?
Gerrit So don't say that the Holy Spirit is God, the Father. Don't say that the Holy Spirit is Jesus. Neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the essence. And again, I love how John says, in my Latter Day Saint thinking, is that the reason why I'm having such a hard time? It absolutely is. It's because when you think of God, you have always thought of God as being an exalted man. How can you get outside of that belief? It's really, really, really hard. But what if you had never thought about God as being an exalted man? What if you thought of God as just being a being? And God isn't a dude, God just is. Well then, if God is an indescribable being, that we couldn't possibly comprehend, then the way that that incomprehensible being could both be the father and the son, and that son have a body even though the father doesn't have a body, and the Holy Spirit not having a body, that they could all be the same essence or the same being, the same substance, yet individual persons in that substance, it's pretty hard to understand.
Gerrit But all Christians will say on the matter of the Trinity is, you can't comprehend it. Which again, for a Latter-day Saint, you might say that's a cop-out, but we say similar things. We say, Joseph Smith says, you can't comprehend the glory of the telestial Kingdom. The only way you could understand the glory of the telestial Kingdom is if God opened the heavens and showed it to you. That means that I could study all day long every day for the rest of my life, or even a smarter person than me, or just a smart person could do that all day long every day for the rest of their life, and they would never understand the glory of the telestial Kingdom. It's beyond our ability to understand it. Does that mean the telestial Kingdom doesn't really exist? Does that mean the telestial Kingdom can't really be true because I can't come to an understanding of it? Well, a Latter-day Saint would say no. You need to take the Prophet at his word that the reason why you can't understand it is because it's beyond you.
Gerrit A Christian would say the same thing about the Trinity. It is an unknowable mystery, but important that they start and end with the fact that God is literally nothing like us. God is not like us at all.
Richard So then what then is the purpose of Jesus if God could have saved all of us without him?
Gerrit So you have to ask the question, right? That's a great theological question. Could God have saved all of mankind without Jesus? The answer for anything about God always has to be yes.
Richard He could have.
Gerrit For a Christian, God is literally all powerful. There's only one thing, as we talked about, that God can't do. The only thing that God cannot do is make you exactly like him, because God has literally always existed, and you haven't. In Christian theology, don't worry, in Latter-day Saint theology, we do. But in Christian theology, you haven't always existed, which means God can give you all of the power in the world, but he can't make you always have existed, because what makes God God is that God has always existed. And so his very nature prevents there from being any peers. What makes God God is that he has always been God. That's the point of God. Latter-day Saints, of course, you know, Joseph Smith turns that on its head and says, you suppose that God was God from all eternity. Who told you that? Right. And then he demonstrates in the King Follett sermon that God became God. Now, that's the most heretical thing. I mean, there's a lot of heretical things.
Gerrit Tune in to the other premium. We'll talk all about the heretical things, but there's a lot of heretical things. That's really kind of at the nature of it. This idea that God became God absolutely rejects the entirety of every early Christian creed. So it's not just we aren't OK with Nicaea. We're not OK with Nicaea. We're not OK with Constantinople. We're not OK with Chalcedon. We don't accept any of the early Christian churches attempt to put God in a non revelatory box to try to say, well, God must be this and this must be his nature or this must be that. A Christian would say it again, depending on the faith tradition, they would say that God, you know, knowing that mankind was going to fall. Now, what they don't go, they need to go further on that and say, okay, God knew that mankind was going to fall. Then why is he letting them fall?
Gerrit Why am I creating Adam and Eve out of nothing, knowing that they're going to fall? And it is, it's a profound thing that when you get to really deep Christian thinkers who are very honest about what they're not just, you know, banging a tambourine and telling you to come up and put money in the jar. I mean, someone who is really wrestled with these questions and is honest about it, they will say that's one of the mysteries, one of the mysteries of creation. I don't know why. The fact that God created us knowing that we would fall must be good because God only does good things. So it's good by definition because God did it. We have no idea why. That's what a Christian theologian would say. It somehow must be good. Now, Latter-day Saint would say, I agree with you. It must be good. And I do have an idea why. The idea why is because we weren't created out of nothing. We've always existed.
Gerrit And there were steps that we needed to take in order to progress to become like our Heavenly Father. And they just so happen to be steps that our Heavenly Father himself took. Now there's all kinds of blasphemy wrapped up in that. There's a reason why Christians reject what we're thinking. To John's point, sure, you are going to find individual Christians that always in their own mind think of God and Jesus as being separate. And when they pray, they think of them as two different individuals, and they don't understand Trinitarian theology. So it's important to understand that that's the case. I mean, all of us have met people who will say, you know, I've just always felt like that God and Jesus were separate. It seems like they are in the scripture. I mean, when you read the Bible, they certainly come across as being separate, right? Jesus is praying to him. God is talking to him. Jesus is talking back. If you're just reading the New Testament, it certainly sounds like they're separate beings.
Gerrit But their churches would reject that theology. And I don't want to hang too much on those churches, because look, all of us know Latter-day Saints who are fully active, who believe things that our church does not believe, that our church would be like, yeah, we don't believe that at all, actually. But they're still running around saying in Sunday school, right? So I think you have to have a little bit of grace for that. It's not that our church isn't teaching people how the plan of salvation works. It's that, you know, so-and-so has a thought in their head that it involves this too, even though that's never been taught. But it matters to them, so they say it. But I guess the short answer to your question, and it's hard to have a short answer at 52 minutes, but the short answer is that is what those Christian denominations believe. And I would say, look, Trinitarian theology is, it is what you learn in any type of Sunday school or catechism that you go through in any of those denominations.
Gerrit So while you might not think of God and Jesus as being the same being when you're praying and in your mind, you still separate them out, you will have had some kind of formal education in church, if you're active, if you're going all the time, where you've been taught. No, they are literally God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are one God. They are their one God. And when you say, well, how can that be? It's a mystery of God. It's a crazy thing to say, God does not have a body. Jesus is God. Jesus has a body. Okay, so let's do the math theorem on that. God doesn't have a body. Jesus is God. Jesus has a body. Where are you on that one, Blaise Pascal? Where's our theorem for that one? And yet, in fact, sometimes people argue we believe it because it's a mystery. And as we talked about in the previous episodes, if you're coming in and this is the only one you've ever listened to, please go back and listen to the others.
Gerrit Actually, start from the very beginning. Because there are reasons why they had to come to that conclusion. How is it possible that God can be God and that Jesus can be God and that the Holy Spirit can be God and we aren't polytheists? The only way that that's possible is if God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are actually all one essence.
Richard You brought this up in several of our Mormon's Christian episodes. Just this idea of polytheism isn't even something that he's even really thought about in the same way that it was then. To them, both Judaism and Christianity, it was the main part.
Gerrit Right. The driving force, especially of every early convert to Christianity, because every early convert is either a Samaritan or a Judean. They're Jewish. Until you get Paul, then you finally get the expansion of the gospel, but that's after Jesus. Jesus tells his disciples not to go into the lands of the Samaritan or the Gentiles. It's not until Peter receives his revelation that they can even start baptizing Gentiles. So it's after Jesus that the gospel is taken outside of Judaism. And so the most fundamental aspect of Judaism is that there's only one God. You can see how hard it is then for Jewish believers in Jesus, Jews who think that Jesus is the Messiah, to take the next step and say Jesus isn't just the Messiah. Jesus is divine and the word divine means God. Well, how can Jesus be God if the Father is God? And you'll notice as you read your New Testament this year, notice especially in the gospel of John, the number of times that they threatened to kill Jesus for blasphemy.
Gerrit Why? Because thou being a man makest thyself God. It is actually fundamental even in the reason why the Jews are rejecting Jesus in the gospel of John because thou art not yet 50 years old and yet thou hast seen Abraham, right? Because Jesus said Abraham saw my day and rejoiced, right? And Jesus gives that just the most powerful of all. It's not surprising that Jesus has the best rejoinders of all. It's almost as if he were perfect, but he gives that most powerful response of all time before Abraham was I am. And I am being a reference to I am that I am, which is what Moses is told by the burning bush up on the mountain, that the name of God was I am. And here Jesus declares in the gospel of John, I am, I am, right? And they took up stones to stone him because that was the blasphemy.
Gerrit And so it's a very difficult thing for a Christian today. Like today, like when I have, you know, Latter-day Saint or regular Christian students confront the idea of someone being Hindu, they, it is a incredibly difficult, difficult thing for them to wrap their heads around it. How could you possibly believe that there are hundreds of gods? Like it's, it's actually something that I would guess most Christians have never, most modern Christians never even asked the question. From the cradle to the grave, they believe that there's just one God and they believe, you know, when they hear about Hindus believing that there's multiple gods saying, Whoa, how crazy are those people that they could believe in multiple gods? In the early world, the ancient world, it would have been exactly the opposite. There would have only been people who believed in polytheism, and they would have thought it as ridiculous.
Gerrit I hate to bring up an atheist on the podcast, especially a funny one, but Ricky Gervais is a very well-known atheist, and he often spouts off on his atheism. And he's kind of a crass comedian, which is the reason why they had him hosting the Oscars, I think, for as long as they did because...
Richard I think it was the Golden Globes.
Gerrit Golden Globes, yeah, right. Because no one was getting slapped enough, I guess, and they needed some other controversy. But he's been in multiple conversations with people, how can you not believe in God? And he's like, well, I mean, there are people who believe there are hundreds of gods. Do you believe there's hundreds of gods? And they're like, well, no, there's only one god. He's like, well, then I only believe in one less god than you do. There are people who believe there's 400 gods. You're telling me there's only one. Well, then we're almost exactly the same. I just believe in one less than you. Why are you rejecting the other 399? And you can give all kinds of reasons why you're rejecting them. Now, I'm not arguing that anyone listening to the podcast should be an atheist. What I'm saying is, in our world, the whole reason why that's a conversation with Ricky Gervais in his interviews is because the idea that there is more than one God is actually more preposterous than the idea that there isn't a God to us.
Gerrit You actually have more respect, generally, for someone who's an atheist than you do for someone who claims that there's a hundred gods. It's so different from the early Christian world. If you had a friend who was Hindu and was trying to tell you about the hundreds of gods they believe in, I mean, you might respect him, but you'd be like, I don't accept any part of anything that you're saying. But if you had a friend who was like, I study science and it's just not logical that there's a god, you might still be able to have, you know what? I see where you're coming from. I see, you know, evolution and the Big Bang Theory. I get it. You know, you would actually generally have more sympathy for that person. And they all came from a world where atheism didn't exist. And polytheism, anyone who didn't believe in it was crazy. The same way that you look at someone who believes in a hundred gods as being crazy, that's how they saw monotheism.
Gerrit So it's not surprising that the early Christian arguments, as these episodes have demonstrated, all revolve around who is God. What is the nature of God? How is it that God and Jesus can both be God? How is it that God cannot have a body, but Jesus can have a body, but the Holy Spirit can't have a body? How is it that Jesus became mortal? How is it that an immortal God can become mortal when you're immortal, you can't become mortal? And how can that immortal mortal die when you can't die because you're immortal? I mean, it sounds like you're running in circles, but that's literally what they're doing. How is it that Jesus can be fully human? Is Jesus a man or is Jesus a God? Now, I think many Christians, they tend to highlight the God nature of Jesus, but credibly, what Christians believe is that Jesus was 100% human.
Gerrit 100%. He's not Hercules. He's not half man, half God. Fully God. He's fully man. 100% man and also by an unknowable mystery, 100% God. If you were to write that on any math test, your professor would come back and say, I don't think you understand percentages. You can't both be 100% not a God and 100% also a God. You would come back and say, well then I guess you don't understand the definition of the terms. Latter-day Saints have things that we can't explain. I don't know exactly how ceilings work in the next life. I don't know what the glories of the kingdoms are going to be like. I don't fully understand how the progression is going to take place in the next life. There are things we certainly can't explain. But we don't, when it comes to Christology, have as a fundamental doctrine something that we say we can't possibly understand.
Gerrit Outside of what all Christians admit, and that is we cannot comprehend the atonement of Jesus Christ. Kind of a way to dovetail the end of this, right, is that your Christian friend and a Latter-day Saint, they do have one central thing in common. Even if they don't agree, even if your Christian friend says, well, you're not a real Christian and you believe in the wrong Jesus and you don't believe in the Trinity on down the line, there is one area of agreement. And that is even if we're believing in the wrong Jesus, we both believe that the only way anyone can be saved is through the atonement of Jesus Christ. They would say we're wrong about the atonement, we're wrong about how it works, we're wrong about who Jesus is. But if you had to write a sentence, true or false, the only way you can be saved is through the atonement of Jesus Christ. A Latter-day Saint would mark true and a Christian would mark true. Now, then they would get in a fistfight over what that meant. But fundamentally, we still believe that salvation only comes from Jesus.
Gerrit So for me, I think that that should dictionary define Latter-day Saints as Christians, because they believe fundamentally salvation cannot exist except through Jesus. And really what Christians are attacking Latter-day Saints for is for believing the wrong thing about Jesus' nature, not about that salvation comes from him. Anyway, thanks for joining us. We hope to catch you on another podcast. Thank you so much.
Other Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth Podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.

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I'm pretty sure that this is going to be the Standard of Truth Podcast brought to you by President LeDuc at some point in the future.

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Yes, it's a terrible thing to be a sheep. My sheep hear my voice and they follow me.

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I mean, the fact that letting Richard get a PhD demonstrates legitimately anyone can go get a PhD.

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Oh, this speaks very poorly of Oklahoma state and their admission process.

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It was one of those times where early in the marriage, I realized that anytime I think Angie's wrong, I'm the one who's wrong.

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So for me, I think that that should dictionary define Latter-day Saints as Christians, because they believe fundamentally salvation cannot exist except through Jesus.

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More from this episode

Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.

Claim check

What critics say, and what the episode found
Most Christians quietly believe the Father and Son are separate persons with bodies, so they're really polytheists too.
Latter-day Saints are just modern-day Arians.
The Protestant reformers rethought everything the Catholic Church taught.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.

Take it to class

Ready to copy into a lesson or a text

When a Christian friend says Latter-day Saints aren't Christian, the main thing they usually mean is that we don't believe in the Trinity, the one in three and three in one.

The reformers challenged how a sinner is saved, but they kept the creeds from Nicaea, Constantinople and Chalcedon about who God is.

Christians call the Trinity an unknowable mystery, much as Latter-day Saints say no one can understand the telestial glory unless God shows it to them.

Latter-day Saints and other Christians may argue about Jesus's nature, but both would mark true: the only way anyone can be saved is through the atonement of Jesus Christ.

Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.

Banter bin

The running jokes, for people who skip ahead
Doctor inflationRichard makes the intro, and Gerrit predicts "Dr. LeDuc with sometime special guest Gerrit Dirkmaat" and eventually President LeDuc (1:46).
Testimonials we inventedNew listeners need emails telling them the show is good, "people that we invented and then wrote to ourselves" (2:58).
The money-losing business planWait for a recession, then launch premium content (3:54-4:24, callback 21:09).
Oklahoma StateLetting Richard get a PhD proves anyone can; his graduation is the Cowboys' second biggest problem after Oklahoma leaving for the SEC (8:20-9:07).
Just download itThey don't care if Taylor listens, as long as the downloads count (10:34).
Angie's charts and graphsHer paper for the philosophy class was half charts and got 100% (17:07).
Crinkling LeavesRichard's NPR-style name for the historic sites show that became Holy Places From Our Past (19:19-19:34).
Lefty Lopez burns the mansionThe reformers burned down the mansion like TLC's Lefty Lopez, and Luther went chasing waterfalls (27:16-28:05).
Republicans and Democrats are not arguingA political spinoff pitched mid-analogy about taxes (35:09, 36:11).
Not everyone's cup of teaGerrit has been told he's far too jovial to have a testimony (5:13, 9:07).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

Your question could be next week’s episode
Questions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
General ConferenceGeneral Conference talks that cite a scripture read in this episode.

In General Conference

Talks from the latest General Conference that cite a scripture this episode reads or names on air
October 2026 General Conference · cites John 4:24Divine AppointmentsPresident Timothy L. FarnesPresident Farnes recalls a discouraging day as a young priesthood leader when then-Elder Dallin H.October 2026 General Conference · cites John 4:24Quick to Help, Slow to JudgeElder Paul H. SinclairElder Sinclair recalls a Primary boy who buttoned his sleeve to his lapel and got stuck, and the little girl who quietly freed him while he himself felt only irritation, a moment that taught him to be quick to help and slow to judge.

Summaries, themes and lessons for every talk are on What Did They Say?

Go deeperWhere to read more.

Go deeper

Deep dives the episode points toward
Read John 8 and John 10 this year and notice how often Jesus is threatened for blasphemy, "thou being a man makest thyself God" (55:53).
The Athanasian Creed line by line, and what "neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the essence" rules out (43:35).
How Eastern Orthodox "similar essence" teaching differs from the Catholic "same essence" view, and why it matters for unity talks (39:27).
The King Follett sermon, and why "God became God" sets Latter-day Saints apart from every early Christian creed (47:47).
Talk with a friend: ask them what they believe about God and why, before assuming what their church teaches (29:39).
SOT Litner · S3E1.