This is our ninth take of actually trying that opening.
Standard of Truth · Season 3 · Episode 25 · 54:46
Standard of Truth Tour - Recorded Live Before a Studio Audience
When Emma Smith explained to her son why she married Joseph, she said simply, "preferring him to any other man I knew, I accepted."
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The question ·
So, baptism prompted the restoration of the Aaronic Priesthood. What prompted the restoration of the Melchizedek Priesthood?
Richard
Recorded live on the June church history tour, Richard reads questions from the tour group, and Gerrit jokes that the only sure way to get your question answered is to come on a tour. First, what was Joseph and Emma's relationship like? Gerrit explains how differently 19th-century people thought about marriage, and how their trials drew them closer. After a stop at the Aaronic Priesthood restoration site, the group asks when and why the Melchizedek Priesthood came; Gerrit says there's no exact date, but D&C 27 shows Peter, James and John had already ordained Joseph and Oliver apostles. Then come the offshoot churches after Joseph's death, and Gina's question about troubling information, which Gerrit answers by asking what people have actually read and not throwing away all the good over one source.
Who comes upJoseph SmithEmma SmithOliver CowderyPeterJamesJohnBrigham YoungSidney RigdonJames J. StrangWilliam SmithLyman Wight
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Live on tour
The hosts record in front of the tour group, who take a few seconds to cheer.
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306 moments · tap a time to play from thereIntro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.
Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.
Richard Hello, Gerrit, we're here with the Standard of Truth Tour. Thank you very much.
Richard Hello, Gerrit, we're here with the Standard of Truth Tour. Thank you very much.
Gerrit Yeah, it took a few seconds for them to cheer.
Gerrit Yeah, it took a few seconds for them to cheer.
Richard Yes, but they had to be prompted.
Richard Yes, but they had to be prompted.
Gerrit Was that what you told them?
Gerrit Was that what you told them?
Richard I exactly did exactly what I had.
Richard I exactly did exactly what I had.
Gerrit We aren't really happy that we're here, but we want them to cheer anyway.
Gerrit We aren't really happy that we're here, but we want them to cheer anyway.
Richard That's right. This is our ninth take of actually trying that opening.
Richard That's right. This is our ninth take of actually trying that opening.
Gerrit Well, in one of the earlier takes, I said, my name is Professor Gerrit Ferfman.
Gerrit Well, in one of the earlier takes, I said, my name is Professor Gerrit Ferfman.
Richard So, we've had a wonderful tour with absolutely wonderful people and we really enjoyed it. It's been just absolutely lovely. We're a little more than halfway through. We have a couple of days to go. And so we went through, we received several questions from the tour group. And the goal here will be to try to answer some of their questions.
Richard So, we've had a wonderful tour with absolutely wonderful people and we really enjoyed it. It's been just absolutely lovely. We're a little more than halfway through. We have a couple of days to go. And so we went through, we received several questions from the tour group. And the goal here will be to try to answer some of their questions.
Gerrit And really what I think, if this ever gets released.
Gerrit And really what I think, if this ever gets released.
Richard Which it will not.
Richard Which it will not.
Gerrit Okay, Richard has to keep telling me that because it's not going to actually get released. It's the same way he's like, we won't ever do another question about polygamy. And then he's like, what about this question that's about polyandry? If this ever does get released, I mean, really the way to make sure your questions are read is you have to go on a tour.
Gerrit Okay, Richard has to keep telling me that because it's not going to actually get released. It's the same way he's like, we won't ever do another question about polygamy. And then he's like, what about this question that's about polyandry? If this ever does get released, I mean, really the way to make sure your questions are read is you have to go on a tour.
Richard Yes, that's correct.
Richard Yes, that's correct.
Gerrit Or at least we answered on the bus poorly.
Gerrit Or at least we answered on the bus poorly.
Richard Either you pretend to be my son or you go on a tour. Those are the only ways.
Richard Either you pretend to be my son or you go on a tour. Those are the only ways.
Gerrit Well, and someone pretended to be your mom. They did. At some point, people are going to be pretending to be like your second cousin, twice removed.
Gerrit Well, and someone pretended to be your mom. They did. At some point, people are going to be pretending to be like your second cousin, twice removed.
Richard Yes, well, so if you want, we can just dive into the questions.
Richard Yes, well, so if you want, we can just dive into the questions.
Gerrit The deep end, yeah.
Gerrit The deep end, yeah.
Richard Okay, here we go. Now we have been to, we started with a little bit of American history and no American history questions here. I think you were fully comprehensive on the bus telling everything about the revolution.
Richard Okay, here we go. Now we have been to, we started with a little bit of American history and no American history questions here. I think you were fully comprehensive on the bus telling everything about the revolution.
Gerrit I think that they got a taste of what would happen if I started talking about the 165th regiment of foot.
Gerrit I think that they got a taste of what would happen if I started talking about the 165th regiment of foot.
Richard Yeah, that's right.
Richard Yeah, that's right.
Gerrit Yeah, I have a testimony, but it's not that strong.
Gerrit Yeah, I have a testimony, but it's not that strong.
Richard So our first question, given all the hardships that the Smiths had, what was the relationship between Joseph and Emma like from January 18th, 1827 to April, 1841? It's a very specific date.
Richard So our first question, given all the hardships that the Smiths had, what was the relationship between Joseph and Emma like from January 18th, 1827 to April, 1841? It's a very specific date.
Gerrit Those are very specific dates.
Gerrit Those are very specific dates.
Richard It's interesting. It's interesting. It didn't say May, 1841. It said April.
Richard It's interesting. It's interesting. It didn't say May, 1841. It said April.
Gerrit It's interesting.
Richard Maybe you should have said March, actually.
Gerrit It's interesting.
Richard Maybe you should have said March, actually.
Gerrit What was the cutoff for, you think? I don't know.
Gerrit What was the cutoff for, you think? I don't know.
Richard I don't know, it was Nauvoo, different time period.
Richard I don't know, it was Nauvoo, different time period.
Gerrit Yeah, interesting. It's not the month of the sealing to Wise of Eamon, or? Nope, nope.
Gerrit Yeah, interesting. It's not the month of the sealing to Wise of Eamon, or? Nope, nope.
Richard Just before that, like one day before that.
Richard Just before that, like one day before that.
Gerrit I mean, obviously, obviously it's a great question about church history, is Joseph and Emma's relationship. Now, sometimes I'm a little bit of a dream crusher on that.
Gerrit I mean, obviously, obviously it's a great question about church history, is Joseph and Emma's relationship. Now, sometimes I'm a little bit of a dream crusher on that.
Richard Sometimes.
Richard Sometimes.
Gerrit I mean, which would be on brand. Why don't we call, we should call it Dream Crusher Tours.
Gerrit I mean, which would be on brand. Why don't we call, we should call it Dream Crusher Tours.
Richard We've gotten a lot of really good ideas on how to redo everything that we currently are doing.
Richard We've gotten a lot of really good ideas on how to redo everything that we currently are doing.
Gerrit Right, is it from all of these people on the table?
Gerrit Right, is it from all of these people on the table?
Richard All these wonderful people.
Richard All these wonderful people.
Gerrit All the people in the room right now.
Gerrit All the people in the room right now.
Richard Hey, we really love everything you're doing. What if you change everything?
Richard Hey, we really love everything you're doing. What if you change everything?
Gerrit Change everything, yeah. Is there some way that you could take us this way instead of that way? Is there some way that you could talk about this instead of this? And is there some way that it could be led by someone else?
Gerrit Change everything, yeah. Is there some way that you could take us this way instead of that way? Is there some way that you could talk about this instead of this? And is there some way that it could be led by someone else?
Richard Other than that, love the show.
Richard Other than that, love the show.
Gerrit Other than that, everything's great. So, what I mean by a little bit of a dream crusher is because we live in the 21st century, when we envision the way that they had their romance, we do it the way we envision it, the way we dated or whatever. And of course, the 19th century is very, very different. I was talking to somebody about this earlier, and I don't remember who, so that means I'm just making that up, right? And when Emma married Joseph, she wasn't even intending to marry him. Now, I don't mean like she wasn't intending to marry him at all. I mean, she left home to go visit some family friends. She says visit family friends, but Joseph also so happened to be there. So, I mean, my guess is there's some kind of, or maybe Joseph's, I'm just gonna stay here. I'm gonna stay here until she comes to visit.
Gerrit Other than that, everything's great. So, what I mean by a little bit of a dream crusher is because we live in the 21st century, when we envision the way that they had their romance, we do it the way we envision it, the way we dated or whatever. And of course, the 19th century is very, very different. I was talking to somebody about this earlier, and I don't remember who, so that means I'm just making that up, right? And when Emma married Joseph, she wasn't even intending to marry him. Now, I don't mean like she wasn't intending to marry him at all. I mean, she left home to go visit some family friends. She says visit family friends, but Joseph also so happened to be there. So, I mean, my guess is there's some kind of, or maybe Joseph's, I'm just gonna stay here. I'm gonna stay here until she comes to visit.
Gerrit He was willing to wait it out. At any rate, when she gets there, Joseph's there. And so Joseph, when she's there, she says, I had no intention of marrying when I left home. Meaning she left, I don't know, with like a knapsack, with like two changes of clothes and it, like I'll be back on the weekend.
Gerrit He was willing to wait it out. At any rate, when she gets there, Joseph's there. And so Joseph, when she's there, she says, I had no intention of marrying when I left home. Meaning she left, I don't know, with like a knapsack, with like two changes of clothes and it, like I'll be back on the weekend.
Richard You make her look like a hobo with like a stick.
Richard You make her look like a hobo with like a stick.
Gerrit Yeah, a spindle and she rode a train that didn't exist. And then, and she gets there and Joseph asked her to marry her. And it's, you know, we don't really know anything about their courtship. So anytime you're watching it on some church movie and it's like him walking her down by the stream and you know, your eyes look lovely. I mean, we don't, we don't have any of that. And that's actually totally normal, but for the 19th century, it was not something that you generally did was to express this kind of romantic affection in any public. And that sometimes causes people to think of, well, people just didn't really love each other back then. No, no, it's about propriety and the way that people talked about one another. At the same time, people believed in the concept of love, but they didn't always, obviously some people did, you know, they didn't, marrying for love wasn't the primary reason that you got married.
Gerrit Yeah, a spindle and she rode a train that didn't exist. And then, and she gets there and Joseph asked her to marry her. And it's, you know, we don't really know anything about their courtship. So anytime you're watching it on some church movie and it's like him walking her down by the stream and you know, your eyes look lovely. I mean, we don't, we don't have any of that. And that's actually totally normal, but for the 19th century, it was not something that you generally did was to express this kind of romantic affection in any public. And that sometimes causes people to think of, well, people just didn't really love each other back then. No, no, it's about propriety and the way that people talked about one another. At the same time, people believed in the concept of love, but they didn't always, obviously some people did, you know, they didn't, marrying for love wasn't the primary reason that you got married.
Gerrit You know, otherwise, you know, there wouldn't be a sense of sensibility, right? The reason why the book is, that's a shout out to Angie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who's not yet asleep in the room full of people. She's not asleep because these people are keeping her awake with cattle prods and whatever else. But that's not to say that they don't believe in love and that marriages aren't based on love. It's just that the understanding is that love is something that grows inside of a marriage. And so this concept that I'm not going to marry someone until I am 100% head over heels in love with them, that's a later, it's actually a late 20th century convention. And there's been surveys that demonstrate this, that in the latter part of the Great Depression, just before World War II, they survey thousands of unmarried men and women, and they ask them to say, what is the most important quality that your future spouse is going to have to have?
Gerrit You know, otherwise, you know, there wouldn't be a sense of sensibility, right? The reason why the book is, that's a shout out to Angie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who's not yet asleep in the room full of people. She's not asleep because these people are keeping her awake with cattle prods and whatever else. But that's not to say that they don't believe in love and that marriages aren't based on love. It's just that the understanding is that love is something that grows inside of a marriage. And so this concept that I'm not going to marry someone until I am 100% head over heels in love with them, that's a later, it's actually a late 20th century convention. And there's been surveys that demonstrate this, that in the latter part of the Great Depression, just before World War II, they survey thousands of unmarried men and women, and they ask them to say, what is the most important quality that your future spouse is going to have to have?
Gerrit What will there have to be there? And mutual attraction and love isn't even in the top three. They took that survey again in 1996. It was like the only thing that mattered. And so it's such a hard concept for us to even wrap our hands around because we actually live in a world today where no one thinks any marriage is in any way legitimate unless it's 100% based on love, right? That's why you even have conversations with people like, I know she's an alcoholic and she's cheated on me twice, but I love her, and then they get married anyway, right? I mean, the concepts from these earlier ages was, it was more important that they had the same religion. It was more important for a woman that a man had a kind disposition. Well, why? Well, because, look, there's obviously a lot of spousal abuse in the 19th century, and you may not know what he's going to be like four or five years down the road, but if he seems like a kind person, well, that's a better start.
Gerrit What will there have to be there? And mutual attraction and love isn't even in the top three. They took that survey again in 1996. It was like the only thing that mattered. And so it's such a hard concept for us to even wrap our hands around because we actually live in a world today where no one thinks any marriage is in any way legitimate unless it's 100% based on love, right? That's why you even have conversations with people like, I know she's an alcoholic and she's cheated on me twice, but I love her, and then they get married anyway, right? I mean, the concepts from these earlier ages was, it was more important that they had the same religion. It was more important for a woman that a man had a kind disposition. Well, why? Well, because, look, there's obviously a lot of spousal abuse in the 19th century, and you may not know what he's going to be like four or five years down the road, but if he seems like a kind person, well, that's a better start.
Gerrit And so Emma says, when she tells her son how it is that she married Joseph, she says that, Joseph asked me to marry him and preferring him to any other man I knew, I accepted. And now that sounds like it's a sacrament meeting joke. It sounds like the kind of joke that I would tell... I get it's a bad joke. Like we're in a live room and no one laughs.
Gerrit And so Emma says, when she tells her son how it is that she married Joseph, she says that, Joseph asked me to marry him and preferring him to any other man I knew, I accepted. And now that sounds like it's a sacrament meeting joke. It sounds like the kind of joke that I would tell... I get it's a bad joke. Like we're in a live room and no one laughs.
Richard It's a sacrament meeting joke. Well, you're grading on a curve.
Richard It's a sacrament meeting joke. Well, you're grading on a curve.
Gerrit Yeah, exactly.
Gerrit Yeah, exactly.
Richard Let's get the applause signs going, guys.
Richard Let's get the applause signs going, guys.
Gerrit Yeah, the applause sign. Where people get up and like, Bishop Vombosi asked me to speak, and well, I thought I'd tell us a little bit about you. Angie and I have been married for one day more than Richard and Becky, and I asked Angie to marry me, and she's so nice that she'd say yes to the first person ever, and so she said yes to me. And look, it's not a good joke.
Gerrit Yeah, the applause sign. Where people get up and like, Bishop Vombosi asked me to speak, and well, I thought I'd tell us a little bit about you. Angie and I have been married for one day more than Richard and Becky, and I asked Angie to marry me, and she's so nice that she'd say yes to the first person ever, and so she said yes to me. And look, it's not a good joke.
Richard It's a barn burner in sacrament.
Richard It's a barn burner in sacrament.
Gerrit Right, in sacrament, rolling in the aisles. Yeah, that is a Johnny Carson level of joke. I mean, that is.
Gerrit Right, in sacrament, rolling in the aisles. Yeah, that is a Johnny Carson level of joke. I mean, that is.
Richard That's a good reference.
Richard That's a good reference.
Gerrit But the reason why it's a joke is that everyone listening is like, okay, I get it. Obviously, you married her because you love her. Well, Emma's not trying to tell a joke. She's trying to explain what happened. She knew Joseph. Obviously, there was some fondness there, but she wasn't planning on marrying Joseph. Now, my guess is, given the fact that her family is a fairly prominent family in Harmony, that she has a pretty good idea of the suitors that her dad wants her to marry. She probably knows by the time where she's at with her life who they're trying to say, well, have you seen the Johnson boy? I mean, you know, he does have three calves. It would be, not on his legs, but I mean like actual cows. I mean, that would obviously be a much, first of all, then you'd want to marry him immediately, right? But that is probably something that plays into it, right? I mean, Emma is already doing something incredibly forbidden in 19th century culture, and that is marrying against her dad's wishes.
Gerrit But the reason why it's a joke is that everyone listening is like, okay, I get it. Obviously, you married her because you love her. Well, Emma's not trying to tell a joke. She's trying to explain what happened. She knew Joseph. Obviously, there was some fondness there, but she wasn't planning on marrying Joseph. Now, my guess is, given the fact that her family is a fairly prominent family in Harmony, that she has a pretty good idea of the suitors that her dad wants her to marry. She probably knows by the time where she's at with her life who they're trying to say, well, have you seen the Johnson boy? I mean, you know, he does have three calves. It would be, not on his legs, but I mean like actual cows. I mean, that would obviously be a much, first of all, then you'd want to marry him immediately, right? But that is probably something that plays into it, right? I mean, Emma is already doing something incredibly forbidden in 19th century culture, and that is marrying against her dad's wishes.
Gerrit I mean, so they are going to just get married. And so because it's so much against her dad's wishes, to us, it becomes like the only reason they do that is it was they were desperately in love, and their dad was saying that they couldn't see each other. And it's kind of like Romeo and Juliet, only no one ends up stabbed and dead yet. But in fact, I think she, like so many women in the 19th century, are voting with their feet, right? Culture doesn't allow me, my father doesn't allow me to do what I want to do or to say what I want to say. So because of that, if I marry Joseph, well then at least I'm the one making the decision. And like she said, preferring him to any other man that I knew, I accepted. So, now that's not to say that they don't have affection for one another, that they don't, obviously there's some kind of attraction there. She was going up there to visit for some reason, we don't know, and Joseph's there, right? But they of course are going to come to intensely love one another.
Gerrit I mean, so they are going to just get married. And so because it's so much against her dad's wishes, to us, it becomes like the only reason they do that is it was they were desperately in love, and their dad was saying that they couldn't see each other. And it's kind of like Romeo and Juliet, only no one ends up stabbed and dead yet. But in fact, I think she, like so many women in the 19th century, are voting with their feet, right? Culture doesn't allow me, my father doesn't allow me to do what I want to do or to say what I want to say. So because of that, if I marry Joseph, well then at least I'm the one making the decision. And like she said, preferring him to any other man that I knew, I accepted. So, now that's not to say that they don't have affection for one another, that they don't, obviously there's some kind of attraction there. She was going up there to visit for some reason, we don't know, and Joseph's there, right? But they of course are going to come to intensely love one another.
Gerrit You can see this even in their letters that they have for one another. And so look, I think that in part their horrible trials that they go through strengthens the bond that they have. And I've said this before, anyone who's in a good marriage knows that you love your spouse more after you've gone through a horrible trial rather than less, right? That it brings you closer together and it makes your love that much stronger. I hesitate to say it in front of people, but also my wife, but when I think back, even, look, I married for love, right? So, I mean, the Latter Day Saint version of it, right? That like, I took Angie to like Applebee's twice and then I was like, so do you want to get married? I mean, that kind of, in Bluebird, it was the Bluebird Cafe in Logan, yeah. I didn't want to use so closed a reference now people can track it back down, but.
Gerrit You can see this even in their letters that they have for one another. And so look, I think that in part their horrible trials that they go through strengthens the bond that they have. And I've said this before, anyone who's in a good marriage knows that you love your spouse more after you've gone through a horrible trial rather than less, right? That it brings you closer together and it makes your love that much stronger. I hesitate to say it in front of people, but also my wife, but when I think back, even, look, I married for love, right? So, I mean, the Latter Day Saint version of it, right? That like, I took Angie to like Applebee's twice and then I was like, so do you want to get married? I mean, that kind of, in Bluebird, it was the Bluebird Cafe in Logan, yeah. I didn't want to use so closed a reference now people can track it back down, but.
Richard We're huge in Cache Valley.
Richard We're huge in Cache Valley.
Gerrit Oh, our Cache Valley numbers are through the roof. I think, what do we have, four? Maybe five?
Gerrit Oh, our Cache Valley numbers are through the roof. I think, what do we have, four? Maybe five?
Richard Four or five. Franklin County, we have two. It's awesome.
Richard Four or five. Franklin County, we have two. It's awesome.
Gerrit Do we have anything in Duchenne?
Gerrit Do we have anything in Duchenne?
Richard We do not.
Richard We do not.
Gerrit Okay, yeah, well, is there anything in Duchenne?
Gerrit Okay, yeah, well, is there anything in Duchenne?
Richard There is not.
Gerrit Okay, all right, well, that makes it easier. What about Daggett County? Daggett County is a no.
Richard There is not.
Gerrit Okay, all right, well, that makes it easier. What about Daggett County? Daggett County is a no.
Richard Name another county.
Richard Name another county.
Gerrit Fillmore? Nope. All right, all right. What about Salt Lake County?
Gerrit Fillmore? Nope. All right, all right. What about Salt Lake County?
Richard We have a couple.
Richard We have a couple.
Gerrit Okay, all right. So the reality is in our Latter-day Saint culture, at least for me, I absolutely married because I was in love with Angie. And yet what I thought love was when we first got engaged and the way I feel for her now, they are not even similar feelings. If I were to look at something I would have written when I first got engaged to Angie about how I felt about her, look, it was honest and it was of sincere intent, but I'd be embarrassed by it at this point. I'd be embarrassed because it would be so shallow because what I feel for her now is almost indescribable. I can't consider being happy at all without her.
Gerrit Okay, all right. So the reality is in our Latter-day Saint culture, at least for me, I absolutely married because I was in love with Angie. And yet what I thought love was when we first got engaged and the way I feel for her now, they are not even similar feelings. If I were to look at something I would have written when I first got engaged to Angie about how I felt about her, look, it was honest and it was of sincere intent, but I'd be embarrassed by it at this point. I'd be embarrassed because it would be so shallow because what I feel for her now is almost indescribable. I can't consider being happy at all without her.
Gerrit I can't. It's a terrifying thought to even think about. And so I think everybody kind of understands that as you go through a good marriage, the longer you're in it, the more you love one another. And sometimes these terrible trials, actually they cause you to love one another even more. And that's certainly the case for Joseph and Emma. They are torn apart by the horrors of this world, but always clinging on to one another. And they seem to just desperately rely and love one another even more because of it. That's great.
Gerrit I can't. It's a terrifying thought to even think about. And so I think everybody kind of understands that as you go through a good marriage, the longer you're in it, the more you love one another. And sometimes these terrible trials, actually they cause you to love one another even more. And that's certainly the case for Joseph and Emma. They are torn apart by the horrors of this world, but always clinging on to one another. And they seem to just desperately rely and love one another even more because of it. That's great.
Richard Next question. So today we spent some time in harmony and went to the Aaronic Priesthood Restoration Site. And so we have a couple of Melchizedek Priesthood questions that came from that. So, baptism prompted the restoration of the Aaronic Priesthood. What prompted the restoration of the Melchizedek Priesthood? And how soon after the Aaronic Priesthood was the Melchizedek Priesthood restored?
Richard Next question. So today we spent some time in harmony and went to the Aaronic Priesthood Restoration Site. And so we have a couple of Melchizedek Priesthood questions that came from that. So, baptism prompted the restoration of the Aaronic Priesthood. What prompted the restoration of the Melchizedek Priesthood? And how soon after the Aaronic Priesthood was the Melchizedek Priesthood restored?
Gerrit Well, those are very loaded questions, difficult questions. First of all, they're not easy. Because when we talk about that restoration of the Melchizedek Priesthood, what we're talking about is the Peter, James and John event when they come and give additional authority. So Joseph Smith in Joseph Smith history does not ever actually talk about the actual restoration of the Melchizedek Priesthood. There's actually a big gap in Joseph Smith history. Now, that can be quite concerning for people. They say, well, wait a minute. I mean, I'm pretty sure I would have written it down. But when they were compiling the history in 1839, 40, 41, what becomes very evident as a historian as you're going through it is the way that they're compiling the history is they have an 1835 Doctrine and Covenants. And especially early on, they are going from revelation to revelation to revelation to revelation to revelation and providing filler in between, right?
Gerrit Well, those are very loaded questions, difficult questions. First of all, they're not easy. Because when we talk about that restoration of the Melchizedek Priesthood, what we're talking about is the Peter, James and John event when they come and give additional authority. So Joseph Smith in Joseph Smith history does not ever actually talk about the actual restoration of the Melchizedek Priesthood. There's actually a big gap in Joseph Smith history. Now, that can be quite concerning for people. They say, well, wait a minute. I mean, I'm pretty sure I would have written it down. But when they were compiling the history in 1839, 40, 41, what becomes very evident as a historian as you're going through it is the way that they're compiling the history is they have an 1835 Doctrine and Covenants. And especially early on, they are going from revelation to revelation to revelation to revelation to revelation and providing filler in between, right?
Gerrit So then this revelation happened. Oh yeah, and then I remember we did this and this and this. And then we have this revelation. Now, in part that highlights that the church is being built off of revelation. You're bouncing from revelation to revelation to revelation to revelation. The problem occurs when there aren't any revelations. So now what happens? And that's actually what happens in this early period of the church. We don't have recorded in any of Joseph Smith's early documents when the Aaronic Priestess restored. The only reason we know that is because Oliver Cowdery wrote in a letter to the church that was published when, that it was, to say that it was on May 15th. That's the only reason we know. We don't know from a Joseph Smith document. So again, already when someone's saying, oh, I'm sure Joseph would have written it down, well, I'm sure he didn't, right? I mean, well, maybe he didn't. I just don't have that document. I want to say two definitively. We'll find that document someday, but it'll probably be forged by Mark Hoffman.
Gerrit So then this revelation happened. Oh yeah, and then I remember we did this and this and this. And then we have this revelation. Now, in part that highlights that the church is being built off of revelation. You're bouncing from revelation to revelation to revelation to revelation. The problem occurs when there aren't any revelations. So now what happens? And that's actually what happens in this early period of the church. We don't have recorded in any of Joseph Smith's early documents when the Aaronic Priestess restored. The only reason we know that is because Oliver Cowdery wrote in a letter to the church that was published when, that it was, to say that it was on May 15th. That's the only reason we know. We don't know from a Joseph Smith document. So again, already when someone's saying, oh, I'm sure Joseph would have written it down, well, I'm sure he didn't, right? I mean, well, maybe he didn't. I just don't have that document. I want to say two definitively. We'll find that document someday, but it'll probably be forged by Mark Hoffman.
Gerrit And so even then, we only have a single document that actually tells us definitively the date. So what if Oliver Cowdery hadn't written that letter? We'd still know that John the Baptist came. I mean, we would know it. They do talk about it. There's multiple references to it, but we wouldn't know when it was. So you can already start to see the problem then of, well, Oliver Cowdery doesn't write a letter saying, this is the day that Peter, James and John came, right? Oliver Cowdery talks about Peter, James and John coming. In fact, Oliver Cowdery, when he's coming back into the church, makes particular reference to the fact that Peter, James and John had had their hands on his head. Right? So it's not a question of whether or not Oliver Cowdery is saying Peter, James and John came.
Gerrit And so even then, we only have a single document that actually tells us definitively the date. So what if Oliver Cowdery hadn't written that letter? We'd still know that John the Baptist came. I mean, we would know it. They do talk about it. There's multiple references to it, but we wouldn't know when it was. So you can already start to see the problem then of, well, Oliver Cowdery doesn't write a letter saying, this is the day that Peter, James and John came, right? Oliver Cowdery talks about Peter, James and John coming. In fact, Oliver Cowdery, when he's coming back into the church, makes particular reference to the fact that Peter, James and John had had their hands on his head. Right? So it's not a question of whether or not Oliver Cowdery is saying Peter, James and John came.
Richard So is that the only reference to then Peter, James and John laying hands on head is from Oliver Cowdery when he comes back?
Richard So is that the only reference to then Peter, James and John laying hands on head is from Oliver Cowdery when he comes back?
Gerrit Well, from Oliver Cowdery when he's talking about it then. But of course, we have two separate Joseph Smith documents, one a revelation and then one a letter that will become a section of the Doctrine and Covenants that talk about Peter, James and John. So the first is Doctrine and Covenants, section 27. This one is going to talk about it as an already accomplished thing. Now, the difficulty with D&C 27 is that Joseph tells us that the first part is received at one month, and the second part, which includes that, is received, he says, a month later in Joseph Smith history. But it talks about it as an already accomplished thing.
Gerrit Well, from Oliver Cowdery when he's talking about it then. But of course, we have two separate Joseph Smith documents, one a revelation and then one a letter that will become a section of the Doctrine and Covenants that talk about Peter, James and John. So the first is Doctrine and Covenants, section 27. This one is going to talk about it as an already accomplished thing. Now, the difficulty with D&C 27 is that Joseph tells us that the first part is received at one month, and the second part, which includes that, is received, he says, a month later in Joseph Smith history. But it talks about it as an already accomplished thing.
Richard Specifically about hands laid up.
Richard Specifically about hands laid up.
Gerrit Well, let's pull it up, shall we? So in Doctrine and Covenants Section 27, in this revelation that Joseph Smith dictates, the Lord is talking about all the things that are going to happen when He comes again. And honestly, the great party that there is going to be, the celebration that there is going to be, and part of that, talking about those people that are included, verse 12 says, And also with Peter and James and John, whom I have sent unto you, by whom I have ordained you and confirmed you to be apostles, and as special witnesses of my name, and bear the keys of your ministry, and of the same things which I revealed unto them, unto whom I have committed the keys of my kingdom, and a dispensation of the gospel for the last times and for the fullness of times. In the which I will gather together in one all things, both of which are in heaven and which are on earth. So you get this description of what Peter, James and John did.
Gerrit Well, let's pull it up, shall we? So in Doctrine and Covenants Section 27, in this revelation that Joseph Smith dictates, the Lord is talking about all the things that are going to happen when He comes again. And honestly, the great party that there is going to be, the celebration that there is going to be, and part of that, talking about those people that are included, verse 12 says, And also with Peter and James and John, whom I have sent unto you, by whom I have ordained you and confirmed you to be apostles, and as special witnesses of my name, and bear the keys of your ministry, and of the same things which I revealed unto them, unto whom I have committed the keys of my kingdom, and a dispensation of the gospel for the last times and for the fullness of times. In the which I will gather together in one all things, both of which are in heaven and which are on earth. So you get this description of what Peter, James and John did.
Gerrit It's a past tense description that it's already happened. I've already ordained you. And what does he ordain them to be? Apostles. Ordains them to be apostles, commits the keys of the kingdom, the dispensation of the gospel, the last time, the fullness of times. So it's certainly much more than just this restoration of the authority to give the gift of the Holy Ghost. It's clearly much more than that. And we get a little bit more insight into this in yet another revelation in Doctrine and Covenants, Section 128. Here, this is Joseph Smith writing a letter to the church. And he's trying to kind of cheer the church on a little bit, talking about the great things that are happening. And he says, and again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah, Moroni, an angel from heaven declaring the fulfillment of the prophets. The book to be revealed. A voice of the Lord in the wilderness of Fayette, Seneca County, declaring the Three Witnesses to bear record of the book.
Gerrit It's a past tense description that it's already happened. I've already ordained you. And what does he ordain them to be? Apostles. Ordains them to be apostles, commits the keys of the kingdom, the dispensation of the gospel, the last time, the fullness of times. So it's certainly much more than just this restoration of the authority to give the gift of the Holy Ghost. It's clearly much more than that. And we get a little bit more insight into this in yet another revelation in Doctrine and Covenants, Section 128. Here, this is Joseph Smith writing a letter to the church. And he's trying to kind of cheer the church on a little bit, talking about the great things that are happening. And he says, and again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah, Moroni, an angel from heaven declaring the fulfillment of the prophets. The book to be revealed. A voice of the Lord in the wilderness of Fayette, Seneca County, declaring the Three Witnesses to bear record of the book.
Gerrit The voice of Michael on the banks of the Susquehanna detecting the devil when he appeared as an angel of light. Now, that is literally something that is not in the history of the church, that there is no other account of, and that we have no idea what it is. The one place we know that apparently there was a situation where Michael appeared to say that is not an angel of light, that is the devil, it's right there in that letter that Joseph's writing to the church. So, it's a good demonstration that even though this event is clearly well known to Joseph, that it happened, that it affected him, that it was important, is not determinant of whether or not he's ever written about it before, right?
Gerrit The voice of Michael on the banks of the Susquehanna detecting the devil when he appeared as an angel of light. Now, that is literally something that is not in the history of the church, that there is no other account of, and that we have no idea what it is. The one place we know that apparently there was a situation where Michael appeared to say that is not an angel of light, that is the devil, it's right there in that letter that Joseph's writing to the church. So, it's a good demonstration that even though this event is clearly well known to Joseph, that it happened, that it affected him, that it was important, is not determinant of whether or not he's ever written about it before, right?
Richard But the idea of hands laid on head, though, that seems...
Richard But the idea of hands laid on head, though, that seems...
Gerrit Well, from 27 saying they were confirmed and ordained. Here the next line goes on, the voice of Peter, James and John in the wilderness between Harmony, Susquehanna County and Colesville, Broome County on the Susquehanna River declaring themselves as possessing the keys of the kingdom and the dispensation of the fullness of times. So you get something similar to what's in D&C 27, only this is again giving a little bit of a location of it, right? It's saying that it was, right? In the wilderness between Harmony, which all of you saw the wilderness surrounding it, some of you skipped rocks into it, and Colesville, Broome County, which is where we were even earlier, so that somewhere between there along the Susquehanna River is where this event happens. So it's actually a fairly small geographic location, and the size of that geographic location has actually caused some people to be able to say, okay, well, we know Joseph was in Harmony on this day, and we know he was in Colesville on this day, and we know he was in Fed on this day, so therefore it must have been on somewhere between this time period.
Gerrit Well, from 27 saying they were confirmed and ordained. Here the next line goes on, the voice of Peter, James and John in the wilderness between Harmony, Susquehanna County and Colesville, Broome County on the Susquehanna River declaring themselves as possessing the keys of the kingdom and the dispensation of the fullness of times. So you get something similar to what's in D&C 27, only this is again giving a little bit of a location of it, right? It's saying that it was, right? In the wilderness between Harmony, which all of you saw the wilderness surrounding it, some of you skipped rocks into it, and Colesville, Broome County, which is where we were even earlier, so that somewhere between there along the Susquehanna River is where this event happens. So it's actually a fairly small geographic location, and the size of that geographic location has actually caused some people to be able to say, okay, well, we know Joseph was in Harmony on this day, and we know he was in Colesville on this day, and we know he was in Fed on this day, so therefore it must have been on somewhere between this time period.
Gerrit In fact, it's pretty conventional thinking, or at least the argument, that because they moved to Fayette, that it had to have happened, so May 15th is when they received the Aaronic Priesthood, that they had to have been ordained apostles by Peter, James and John sometime before June because that's when they moved to Fayette, which is only a couple weeks. It's only a couple weeks there. Now, that's certainly a fine argument. There is the other side of that problem though, and that is we don't know where Joseph is literally most of the time in 1829. We know certain days, certain weeks where he's at. We assume he's in places, but those really are assumptions. I mean, a really great example of this, I mean, I say great example, very boring example of this. Yeah, really boring example of this is that we would simply assume that Joseph Smith was in harmony the entire time during the winter of 1829 to 1830 while they're trying to get the Book of Mormon published.
Gerrit In fact, it's pretty conventional thinking, or at least the argument, that because they moved to Fayette, that it had to have happened, so May 15th is when they received the Aaronic Priesthood, that they had to have been ordained apostles by Peter, James and John sometime before June because that's when they moved to Fayette, which is only a couple weeks. It's only a couple weeks there. Now, that's certainly a fine argument. There is the other side of that problem though, and that is we don't know where Joseph is literally most of the time in 1829. We know certain days, certain weeks where he's at. We assume he's in places, but those really are assumptions. I mean, a really great example of this, I mean, I say great example, very boring example of this. Yeah, really boring example of this is that we would simply assume that Joseph Smith was in harmony the entire time during the winter of 1829 to 1830 while they're trying to get the Book of Mormon published.
Gerrit We would assume that. That would be a normal assumption to make because Joseph doesn't tell us in Joseph Smith history that he took a jaunt up to Palmyra, and yet we know he did go to Palmyra. How do we know? We know from another source. We know because, as these fine folks are going to find out tomorrow, Abner Cole, who was working in the print shop, the same granite print shop that Joseph was printing the Book of Mormon, he was publishing a newspaper and he began stealing portions of the yet unpublished Book of Mormon and putting them in his own newspaper in order to drive circulation. Oh, you guys are all waiting for some of that gold Bible stuff. I've got the paparazzi view of some gold Bible stuff. Here it is. Well, when they find out about it, Joseph is so worried that he actually will take the stage, and the stage is very, very expensive, he'll take the stage up from Harmony all night to get to Palmyra so that he can go stop Abner Cole from printing portions of the Book of Mormon.
Gerrit We would assume that. That would be a normal assumption to make because Joseph doesn't tell us in Joseph Smith history that he took a jaunt up to Palmyra, and yet we know he did go to Palmyra. How do we know? We know from another source. We know because, as these fine folks are going to find out tomorrow, Abner Cole, who was working in the print shop, the same granite print shop that Joseph was printing the Book of Mormon, he was publishing a newspaper and he began stealing portions of the yet unpublished Book of Mormon and putting them in his own newspaper in order to drive circulation. Oh, you guys are all waiting for some of that gold Bible stuff. I've got the paparazzi view of some gold Bible stuff. Here it is. Well, when they find out about it, Joseph is so worried that he actually will take the stage, and the stage is very, very expensive, he'll take the stage up from Harmony all night to get to Palmyra so that he can go stop Abner Cole from printing portions of the Book of Mormon.
Gerrit It's a really big deal. Lucy tells us all about it. We know that Abner Cole was doing it because we have Abner Cole's newspaper. So it's not a question of, do this really happen, are they just making up this story? Oh, here's the Palmyra Reflector. I guess it was happening. If you were to just read Joseph Smith history, you would not know that Joseph ever came to Palmyra in the winter. That story is not in there. And again, that goes back to our problem with trying to date this. Actually, there's a gigantic hole in the history of the Church. Because they appear to be using the Doctrine and Covenants as a kind of a guide, well, in their Doctrine and Covenants, there's a giant gap between July of 1829 and March of 1830. And so as you're reading that narrative, you can go read the narrative, you'll see that it will be like, oh, we got the book to the printer and we were trying to share the Gospel some more.
Gerrit It's a really big deal. Lucy tells us all about it. We know that Abner Cole was doing it because we have Abner Cole's newspaper. So it's not a question of, do this really happen, are they just making up this story? Oh, here's the Palmyra Reflector. I guess it was happening. If you were to just read Joseph Smith history, you would not know that Joseph ever came to Palmyra in the winter. That story is not in there. And again, that goes back to our problem with trying to date this. Actually, there's a gigantic hole in the history of the Church. Because they appear to be using the Doctrine and Covenants as a kind of a guide, well, in their Doctrine and Covenants, there's a giant gap between July of 1829 and March of 1830. And so as you're reading that narrative, you can go read the narrative, you'll see that it will be like, oh, we got the book to the printer and we were trying to share the Gospel some more.
Gerrit Now we got the book done from the printer. It literally leaps over all of those months. Not only are there lots of events like Abner Cold threatening to beat up Joseph Smith and them having this argument over the publication, the illicit publication of the Book of Mormon. We know that Joseph Smith received other revelations during that time period. That revelation that he receives is not included in the Doctrine and Covenants. So when the compilers are compiling the history, that's not in there. It's not a matter of, yeah, that wasn't a real revelation. It was put into the Book of Commandments and Revelations. People believed it was a revelation. People acted on it as a revelation. It just wasn't what was readily available in the source that they were using. So that's why it becomes incredibly difficult to determine when exactly Peter, James and John came. Yes, you could take a bet. What would the odds on bet be? I don't know. Is it better or worse than what the Heat have right now?
Gerrit Now we got the book done from the printer. It literally leaps over all of those months. Not only are there lots of events like Abner Cold threatening to beat up Joseph Smith and them having this argument over the publication, the illicit publication of the Book of Mormon. We know that Joseph Smith received other revelations during that time period. That revelation that he receives is not included in the Doctrine and Covenants. So when the compilers are compiling the history, that's not in there. It's not a matter of, yeah, that wasn't a real revelation. It was put into the Book of Commandments and Revelations. People believed it was a revelation. People acted on it as a revelation. It just wasn't what was readily available in the source that they were using. So that's why it becomes incredibly difficult to determine when exactly Peter, James and John came. Yes, you could take a bet. What would the odds on bet be? I don't know. Is it better or worse than what the Heat have right now?
Richard Wow, they lost yesterday.
Richard Wow, they lost yesterday.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard Okay. We're going to talk about this for a minute. So, I mean, the Heat, I think that they really needed to win last night. That's going to really impact things. I'll look up the odds.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard Okay. We're going to talk about this for a minute. So, I mean, the Heat, I think that they really needed to win last night. That's going to really impact things. I'll look up the odds.
Gerrit Okay, good. Yeah. Well, we, you know, our people cry out for odds on games that have been decided weeks ago. It's the best way to make money in gambling. Well, I mean, there are, you know, again, there are people who argue, well, it must have been in that two week window. It doesn't really actually fit the narrative very well. Joseph makes it sound like in Joseph Smith history that it actually takes a really long time. You know, that they prayed and prayed and they waited and waited, that they really wanted something else. And maybe it occurred during that two week period, or maybe it occurred when one of the dozens of times that Joseph Smith, well, likely dozens, I don't know, see, there's me speculating, that Joseph traveled from Fayette where he doesn't actually live, where he's up there for this early foundation. Maybe it occurred when he traveled back down to his farm. I mean, he does go back down to harvest his crops, we assume.
Gerrit Okay, good. Yeah. Well, we, you know, our people cry out for odds on games that have been decided weeks ago. It's the best way to make money in gambling. Well, I mean, there are, you know, again, there are people who argue, well, it must have been in that two week window. It doesn't really actually fit the narrative very well. Joseph makes it sound like in Joseph Smith history that it actually takes a really long time. You know, that they prayed and prayed and they waited and waited, that they really wanted something else. And maybe it occurred during that two week period, or maybe it occurred when one of the dozens of times that Joseph Smith, well, likely dozens, I don't know, see, there's me speculating, that Joseph traveled from Fayette where he doesn't actually live, where he's up there for this early foundation. Maybe it occurred when he traveled back down to his farm. I mean, he does go back down to harvest his crops, we assume.
Gerrit I mean, that's what a good farmer does, goes back down for Emma. We don't really know. So that is part of the problem. We know so little about early Latter-day Saint history that often what happens is we grab ahold of the few dates we do know and then we act as if everything has to occur with the dates we know rather than being a little more circumspect in saying, here's a possible date where this could have happened, but we don't know anything about any of these other dates. Maybe they're possible too. Instead we go, well, here's a possible date where it could have happened, so it must have happened then. And that's much more satisfying. It's a much more satisfying answer to say, this is when it happened. But as all of the listeners of the podcast are well aware, we don't do satisfying answers or even satisfying podcasts. We do nuance that leads people to not know what we're talking about.
Gerrit I mean, that's what a good farmer does, goes back down for Emma. We don't really know. So that is part of the problem. We know so little about early Latter-day Saint history that often what happens is we grab ahold of the few dates we do know and then we act as if everything has to occur with the dates we know rather than being a little more circumspect in saying, here's a possible date where this could have happened, but we don't know anything about any of these other dates. Maybe they're possible too. Instead we go, well, here's a possible date where it could have happened, so it must have happened then. And that's much more satisfying. It's a much more satisfying answer to say, this is when it happened. But as all of the listeners of the podcast are well aware, we don't do satisfying answers or even satisfying podcasts. We do nuance that leads people to not know what we're talking about.
Richard Is there potentially something that may have prompted it? Well, so here's the other......heater plus 650, so that means if I had 100 pieces of bread and I was to give you 100 pieces of bread...
Richard Is there potentially something that may have prompted it? Well, so here's the other......heater plus 650, so that means if I had 100 pieces of bread and I was to give you 100 pieces of bread...
Gerrit Figurative...
Gerrit Figurative...
Richard . if the heat won, then you would give me 650 pieces of bread back. Not money, because we're against gambling.
Richard . if the heat won, then you would give me 650 pieces of bread back. Not money, because we're against gambling.
Gerrit But bread we're fine with.
Gerrit But bread we're fine with.
Richard Or walnuts, whatever.
Richard Or walnuts, whatever.
Gerrit Pelt, perhaps, of some kind. So the reality is Joseph does talk about another event in the history of the Church that he will relate to the restoration of the Melchizedek Priest. In fact, that's what he will call it. He will say that they had been praying to have that blessing realized that the angel, John the Baptist, had promised that if they continued faithful, God would give them this further power. But the way that it's described in Joseph Smith's history and in the history of the Church is that when he's talking about it, he says, you know, our prayers are essentially, I'm paraphrasing this, were realized because as they're praying about it, they hear the voice of God speak to them and the voice of God speaks to them in the chamber of Father Whitmer, in the Whitmer home there in Fayette, that they are praying and asking God for this and the voice of the Lord speaks to them and tells them that they should ordain each other elders.
Gerrit Pelt, perhaps, of some kind. So the reality is Joseph does talk about another event in the history of the Church that he will relate to the restoration of the Melchizedek Priest. In fact, that's what he will call it. He will say that they had been praying to have that blessing realized that the angel, John the Baptist, had promised that if they continued faithful, God would give them this further power. But the way that it's described in Joseph Smith's history and in the history of the Church is that when he's talking about it, he says, you know, our prayers are essentially, I'm paraphrasing this, were realized because as they're praying about it, they hear the voice of God speak to them and the voice of God speaks to them in the chamber of Father Whitmer, in the Whitmer home there in Fayette, that they are praying and asking God for this and the voice of the Lord speaks to them and tells them that they should ordain each other elders.
Gerrit So it's a voice that's telling that, the voice of the Lord. Not only is this in the history of the Church, it's also in what we were just citing in Doctrine and Coven, section 128. After listing off all these things, the very next thing that he lists off, after the whole Peter, James and John making them apostles, he says, verse 21, And again, the voice of God in the chamber of old Father Whitmer in Fayette, Seneca County. So this event is actually something that Joseph references twice as being some important event in the restoration of the Church. And I don't know that we fully comprehend it. In it, the Lord tells them that they're to ordain each other elders. But then it becomes a little bit ambiguous because it says, but they were to defer this, their ordination, until they could get people together who could approve of them being ordained. So did they actually ordain each other?
Gerrit So it's a voice that's telling that, the voice of the Lord. Not only is this in the history of the Church, it's also in what we were just citing in Doctrine and Coven, section 128. After listing off all these things, the very next thing that he lists off, after the whole Peter, James and John making them apostles, he says, verse 21, And again, the voice of God in the chamber of old Father Whitmer in Fayette, Seneca County. So this event is actually something that Joseph references twice as being some important event in the restoration of the Church. And I don't know that we fully comprehend it. In it, the Lord tells them that they're to ordain each other elders. But then it becomes a little bit ambiguous because it says, but they were to defer this, their ordination, until they could get people together who could approve of them being ordained. So did they actually ordain each other?
Gerrit Did they wait till they got people together? It's not clear. It is clear that when Joseph is referencing what happens with Peter, James and John, it is much more than just getting the authority to give the gift to the Holy Ghost. They are ordained apostles and they are given the keys of the kingdom. Something that Brigham Young is going to say had to occur before the organization of the church because you had to be an apostle and have apostolic keys to organize and to run the church. That's part of what Brigham is going to argue.
Gerrit Did they wait till they got people together? It's not clear. It is clear that when Joseph is referencing what happens with Peter, James and John, it is much more than just getting the authority to give the gift to the Holy Ghost. They are ordained apostles and they are given the keys of the kingdom. Something that Brigham Young is going to say had to occur before the organization of the church because you had to be an apostle and have apostolic keys to organize and to run the church. That's part of what Brigham is going to argue.
Richard Alright, so that's great. I have another, just a short question here about all of the shoot-offs created after Joseph Smith's death. Oh, the offshoot branch?
Richard Alright, so that's great. I have another, just a short question here about all of the shoot-offs created after Joseph Smith's death. Oh, the offshoot branch?
Gerrit Or the shoot-offs?
Gerrit Or the shoot-offs?
Richard The shoot-offs. Yeah, that's a different question.
Richard The shoot-offs. Yeah, that's a different question.
Gerrit I feel like one is a Willard Richards question.
Gerrit I feel like one is a Willard Richards question.
Richard It was.
Richard It was.
Gerrit What are all the shoot-offs? The great Carthage shoot-off of Willard Richards.
Gerrit What are all the shoot-offs? The great Carthage shoot-off of Willard Richards.
Richard Yes, offshoots. Every church, all of them. And go.
Richard Yes, offshoots. Every church, all of them. And go.
Gerrit We'll have to do several podcasts.
Gerrit We'll have to do several podcasts.
Richard We have promised that for a while, the succession crisis.
Richard We have promised that for a while, the succession crisis.
Gerrit Well, we promise a lot of things that we don't deliver. We promise information, we promise humor, we promise talent.
Gerrit Well, we promise a lot of things that we don't deliver. We promise information, we promise humor, we promise talent.
Richard We've never promised talent. We haven't promised any of this.
Richard We've never promised talent. We haven't promised any of this.
Gerrit All right.
Gerrit All right.
Richard So how many? So many.
Richard So how many? So many.
Gerrit I would need someone to give me that same date range in the sense of when, because some of these offshoot or shoot off.
Gerrit I would need someone to give me that same date range in the sense of when, because some of these offshoot or shoot off.
Richard Shoot off branches. Shoot off branches. When I grew up, that's what we called them. I didn't read that incorrectly. That's what we've always called them in my home.
Richard Shoot off branches. Shoot off branches. When I grew up, that's what we called them. I didn't read that incorrectly. That's what we've always called them in my home.
Gerrit I can see what you're reading. It seems like maybe we need to have him tested. So it's hard to tell, because some of these that are essentially offshoot branches that begin after the death of Joseph, they aren't immediate, but within a certain time frame. And so you really kind of have to draw a distinction between when am I calling something an offshoot branch related to Joseph's death and when am I now just a regular old apostate forming a new church out in Utah. Because, like for instance, in winter quarters or during the winter quarters time period, you're going to have Alpheus Cutler, who is a member of the High Council, lead an offshoot branch back to Missouri and they become the...
Gerrit I can see what you're reading. It seems like maybe we need to have him tested. So it's hard to tell, because some of these that are essentially offshoot branches that begin after the death of Joseph, they aren't immediate, but within a certain time frame. And so you really kind of have to draw a distinction between when am I calling something an offshoot branch related to Joseph's death and when am I now just a regular old apostate forming a new church out in Utah. Because, like for instance, in winter quarters or during the winter quarters time period, you're going to have Alpheus Cutler, who is a member of the High Council, lead an offshoot branch back to Missouri and they become the...
Richard Go back to Missouri. He's like, hey, winter quarters is so terrible. We're going back to Missouri.
Richard Go back to Missouri. He's like, hey, winter quarters is so terrible. We're going back to Missouri.
Gerrit The only place that will make you say, I can't wait to get to Missouri in the wintertime... Is Omaha, Nebraska? I mean, and it doesn't matter what time of year. Do we have any loonsters in Omaha?
Gerrit The only place that will make you say, I can't wait to get to Missouri in the wintertime... Is Omaha, Nebraska? I mean, and it doesn't matter what time of year. Do we have any loonsters in Omaha?
Richard Not anymore.
Richard Not anymore.
Gerrit There are wonderful stakes, though. Wonderful stakes.
Gerrit There are wonderful stakes, though. Wonderful stakes.
Richard And are you defining these shoot offs between... Like, so you got the stringites, and then you got a... String.
Richard And are you defining these shoot offs between... Like, so you got the stringites, and then you got a... String.
Gerrit String.
Richard String is different. The stringites. So the stringites are a shoot off of the stringites. That's right.
Gerrit String.
Richard String is different. The stringites. So the stringites are a shoot off of the stringites. That's right.
Gerrit Yeah, that's a later...
Richard So you have somebody that splits off from another group. You wouldn't count that as one of the offshoots.
Gerrit Yeah, that's a later...
Richard So you have somebody that splits off from another group. You wouldn't count that as one of the offshoots.
Gerrit Well, I mean, that's why it's so hard to tell. Because look, William Smith isn't going to leave the church immediately after Joseph dies, but it's actually kind of hard to conceive of him acting exactly the same way had Joseph not died. So would William have stayed in the church? I mean, this is all speculation, right?
Gerrit Well, I mean, that's why it's so hard to tell. Because look, William Smith isn't going to leave the church immediately after Joseph dies, but it's actually kind of hard to conceive of him acting exactly the same way had Joseph not died. So would William have stayed in the church? I mean, this is all speculation, right?
Richard No, 100%, yes, absolutely.
Richard No, 100%, yes, absolutely.
Gerrit It's all speculation. But he is going to be part of founding another church after he eventually does leave the church in 1845. So is that a shoot-off branch from Joseph's death? I mean, you could obviously make the argument one way or the other. I think the ones that people are the most familiar with are obviously Sidney Rigdon, because that's where you have the whole meeting, where the church gets to hear what Sidney says, and then you have the meeting where Brigham gets to talk as well. And so, you know, and similar to that immediacy is James Strang claiming that he actually has the keys and that Joseph told them if anything happened, he would be the leader of the church.
Gerrit It's all speculation. But he is going to be part of founding another church after he eventually does leave the church in 1845. So is that a shoot-off branch from Joseph's death? I mean, you could obviously make the argument one way or the other. I think the ones that people are the most familiar with are obviously Sidney Rigdon, because that's where you have the whole meeting, where the church gets to hear what Sidney says, and then you have the meeting where Brigham gets to talk as well. And so, you know, and similar to that immediacy is James Strang claiming that he actually has the keys and that Joseph told them if anything happened, he would be the leader of the church.
Richard That one always impressed me the most. I mean, this is just, this is a guy like a Sunday school second counselor, right?
Richard That one always impressed me the most. I mean, this is just, this is a guy like a Sunday school second counselor, right?
Gerrit He's an elder. He's essentially the presiding elder where he's at in Wisconsin. That's the main reason why we have a problem with it.
Gerrit He's an elder. He's essentially the presiding elder where he's at in Wisconsin. That's the main reason why we have a problem with it.
Richard But I mean, thousands and thousands of people fall in.
Richard But I mean, thousands and thousands of people fall in.
Gerrit Yeah, initially not as many. So what you find with people who tend to gravitate towards the shoot off branches, the offshoots, is they are generally people who are not in Nauvoo. They're generally people. Again, that's a generalization, and someone's sitting here thinking, well, wait, my great-great-great-grandfather, he lived in Nauvoo and he became a Strangite. Why are you here? But no, we came back. We came back. We came back. There are some who follow Sydney Rigdon, a few dozen that follow him in Nauvoo. Out of the well over 15,000 Latter-day Saints that are roughly in the area. And there are some who follow James String in Nauvoo, but again, not that many. Where they're really going to get their converts is from people that are affiliated with the Church in the various branches all over the country, especially along the East Coast, and especially among newly arriving members coming from the baptisms that are going on in England and in other places.
Gerrit Yeah, initially not as many. So what you find with people who tend to gravitate towards the shoot off branches, the offshoots, is they are generally people who are not in Nauvoo. They're generally people. Again, that's a generalization, and someone's sitting here thinking, well, wait, my great-great-great-grandfather, he lived in Nauvoo and he became a Strangite. Why are you here? But no, we came back. We came back. We came back. There are some who follow Sydney Rigdon, a few dozen that follow him in Nauvoo. Out of the well over 15,000 Latter-day Saints that are roughly in the area. And there are some who follow James String in Nauvoo, but again, not that many. Where they're really going to get their converts is from people that are affiliated with the Church in the various branches all over the country, especially along the East Coast, and especially among newly arriving members coming from the baptisms that are going on in England and in other places.
Gerrit Now, why is that? Well, it's pretty easy for Rigdon or String or any of the other offshoots, you know, William Marks for a time. It's easy for them to argue that Brigham Young has hijacked this religion, and he's teaching all these crazy doctrines because many of the things that are being taught by Joseph at the end in Nauvoo are not, you know, the door approach in Manchester, England isn't let me tell you how God was once a man. It was my door approach when I was in Wisconsin. And so if you have a member who just joined the Church in England, and they come across on a ship, and what they think they've got is, I can't wait, I'm going to go meet this prophet, but they think they've got Christianity plus Book of Mormon plus some cool revelations.
Gerrit Now, why is that? Well, it's pretty easy for Rigdon or String or any of the other offshoots, you know, William Marks for a time. It's easy for them to argue that Brigham Young has hijacked this religion, and he's teaching all these crazy doctrines because many of the things that are being taught by Joseph at the end in Nauvoo are not, you know, the door approach in Manchester, England isn't let me tell you how God was once a man. It was my door approach when I was in Wisconsin. And so if you have a member who just joined the Church in England, and they come across on a ship, and what they think they've got is, I can't wait, I'm going to go meet this prophet, but they think they've got Christianity plus Book of Mormon plus some cool revelations.
Gerrit And they land, and someone's saying to them, you're not going to Nauvoo, are you? They're teaching that God used to be a man there. Brigham Young is teaching people that God used to be a man. Well, that's the most blasphemous thing that could ever possibly be spoken to a Christian. What do you mean God used to be a man? God and man aren't even similar. Or you know Brigham Young's practicing polygamy in Nauvoo. Do you think Joseph Smith would have practiced polygamy? Of course not. But the members in Nauvoo, they are aware of those things. Also, I think the power of the Quorum of the Twelve has something to do with it because outside of Nauvoo, you may not fully comprehend the prominent role that the Quorum of the Twelve takes in Nauvoo and in the Church. How would you know that just by reading something? That would be very difficult. But if you're in Nauvoo, yeah, you see it. You see it on a weekly basis as the apostles are assigned to do certain things there, as they're leading meetings. You see what their role actually is.
Gerrit And they land, and someone's saying to them, you're not going to Nauvoo, are you? They're teaching that God used to be a man there. Brigham Young is teaching people that God used to be a man. Well, that's the most blasphemous thing that could ever possibly be spoken to a Christian. What do you mean God used to be a man? God and man aren't even similar. Or you know Brigham Young's practicing polygamy in Nauvoo. Do you think Joseph Smith would have practiced polygamy? Of course not. But the members in Nauvoo, they are aware of those things. Also, I think the power of the Quorum of the Twelve has something to do with it because outside of Nauvoo, you may not fully comprehend the prominent role that the Quorum of the Twelve takes in Nauvoo and in the Church. How would you know that just by reading something? That would be very difficult. But if you're in Nauvoo, yeah, you see it. You see it on a weekly basis as the apostles are assigned to do certain things there, as they're leading meetings. You see what their role actually is.
Gerrit And so a lot of their converts come from those areas. But there are people like Bishop Miller. He's going to stay in the Church at first and then apostatize at winter quarters and then go and lead a group of people away. You're going to have people like Lyman White, who isn't going to claim at first that Brigham's not the real leader of the Church. But he has already gotten permission from Joseph to lead the group of men who were up in the Wisconsin pineries. Seems like Wisconsin really is a recurring theme. But the group of men who were cutting down trees for the temple and for the Nauvoo house, he's already gotten permission from Joseph that he can lead them down to Texas and settle in Texas, where for a long time the Church actually believed all of the Church was going to go. And Lyman White wants to go. And Brigham allows him, says, Lyman White's an apostle, tells him, you can go, you just can't take anyone else that wasn't already a part of that.
Gerrit And so a lot of their converts come from those areas. But there are people like Bishop Miller. He's going to stay in the Church at first and then apostatize at winter quarters and then go and lead a group of people away. You're going to have people like Lyman White, who isn't going to claim at first that Brigham's not the real leader of the Church. But he has already gotten permission from Joseph to lead the group of men who were up in the Wisconsin pineries. Seems like Wisconsin really is a recurring theme. But the group of men who were cutting down trees for the temple and for the Nauvoo house, he's already gotten permission from Joseph that he can lead them down to Texas and settle in Texas, where for a long time the Church actually believed all of the Church was going to go. And Lyman White wants to go. And Brigham allows him, says, Lyman White's an apostle, tells him, you can go, you just can't take anyone else that wasn't already a part of that.
Gerrit Now, of course, some people still go. Lyman White will be tentatively, at least nominally still a member of this Church for a couple of years before he's eventually going to be excommunicated. So, I mean, how would you quantify that? Is that an offshoot after Joseph? It's an offshoot because Joseph dies, but it takes a while. I mean, the reality is there are tens of thousands, probably, I don't know, tens of thousands. There's at least hundreds and hundreds of various little branches that break away. Some of them continue to exist. Most of them don't. And if you get a big dictionary of religions and you look under Latter-day Saint movement, you can find dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens. And some of them are just 40 people breaking away, starting their own church. It lasts for a couple of years, and then it falls apart.
Gerrit Now, of course, some people still go. Lyman White will be tentatively, at least nominally still a member of this Church for a couple of years before he's eventually going to be excommunicated. So, I mean, how would you quantify that? Is that an offshoot after Joseph? It's an offshoot because Joseph dies, but it takes a while. I mean, the reality is there are tens of thousands, probably, I don't know, tens of thousands. There's at least hundreds and hundreds of various little branches that break away. Some of them continue to exist. Most of them don't. And if you get a big dictionary of religions and you look under Latter-day Saint movement, you can find dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens. And some of them are just 40 people breaking away, starting their own church. It lasts for a couple of years, and then it falls apart.
Richard So our last question. Many of them didn't have names on them, but this one did. This one comes to us from Gina, who lives just down the street from here. So this is actually my favorite part. This is a very nice question. My favorite part is that she says specifically, Gerrit, seems like you are aware of most church history. Which was my favorite part. With things like James String and shoot-offs, I don't know why she wouldn't address it specifically to me, but she did. So, Gerrit, seems like you are aware of most church history subjects and events. I would love to hear how you personally process, as a historian, believer, new controversial, confusing information. What have or do you do with these things? And we've discussed this, too, where somebody comes with a faith crisis and they essentially say to you, which is always kind of funny to me, but to me or whatever, if you knew what I knew, right, and it assumes that I'm just kind of a dupe or an idiot, and if I only knew the things that they knew, then I might not have a testimony.
Richard So our last question. Many of them didn't have names on them, but this one did. This one comes to us from Gina, who lives just down the street from here. So this is actually my favorite part. This is a very nice question. My favorite part is that she says specifically, Gerrit, seems like you are aware of most church history. Which was my favorite part. With things like James String and shoot-offs, I don't know why she wouldn't address it specifically to me, but she did. So, Gerrit, seems like you are aware of most church history subjects and events. I would love to hear how you personally process, as a historian, believer, new controversial, confusing information. What have or do you do with these things? And we've discussed this, too, where somebody comes with a faith crisis and they essentially say to you, which is always kind of funny to me, but to me or whatever, if you knew what I knew, right, and it assumes that I'm just kind of a dupe or an idiot, and if I only knew the things that they knew, then I might not have a testimony.
Gerrit Yeah, I mean, it's a pretty advantageous position to take in any debate to say, you either agree with me or you're a liar or an idiot, which is essentially what they're saying. 100%. Well, if you know about that source, then that means you're just a liar.
Gerrit Yeah, I mean, it's a pretty advantageous position to take in any debate to say, you either agree with me or you're a liar or an idiot, which is essentially what they're saying. 100%. Well, if you know about that source, then that means you're just a liar.
Richard But I do know about it.
Richard But I do know about it.
Gerrit Well, then you're an idiot. You're either don't know about it and you're stupid or you do know about it and you're a liar because no one could possibly believe if you've seen what I've seen and if you've read what I've read. Honestly, one of the better ways to diffuse those kinds of arguments is by asking them what they've read. And you'll find relatively quickly that while they can point you to the URL where they read it, they don't even know what source they are reading from. Right? Let me get this straight. This letter that you read claiming that Martin Harris said that he never actually saw the gold plates is so important to you. You're so certain that this is true that you no longer believe Joseph is a prophet. This is the reason why you're going to alter your entire life. You're going to leave the church. You're going to have all kinds of family things that you've got to wade through because of it because of this letter.
Gerrit Well, then you're an idiot. You're either don't know about it and you're stupid or you do know about it and you're a liar because no one could possibly believe if you've seen what I've seen and if you've read what I've read. Honestly, one of the better ways to diffuse those kinds of arguments is by asking them what they've read. And you'll find relatively quickly that while they can point you to the URL where they read it, they don't even know what source they are reading from. Right? Let me get this straight. This letter that you read claiming that Martin Harris said that he never actually saw the gold plates is so important to you. You're so certain that this is true that you no longer believe Joseph is a prophet. This is the reason why you're going to alter your entire life. You're going to leave the church. You're going to have all kinds of family things that you've got to wade through because of it because of this letter.
Gerrit And you don't know who wrote it. You don't know where it is. You don't know the context in which it was written. That's crazy. Talk about not knowing what it is that you believe. If this is now the thing that is so important to you that it's going to cause you to throw away all of the good that you've ever had in the church, I would guess that you would at least want to know what it is you're reading. Not just, hey, I found some words on a web page. Not just, hey, someone told me this. I don't mean to denigrate. Look, people have very honest and sincere questions. Everybody does. If you don't have any questions about religion, well then you must not really believe because belief causes you to ask other questions. What do you think it's really going to be like in the post-mortal life?
Gerrit And you don't know who wrote it. You don't know where it is. You don't know the context in which it was written. That's crazy. Talk about not knowing what it is that you believe. If this is now the thing that is so important to you that it's going to cause you to throw away all of the good that you've ever had in the church, I would guess that you would at least want to know what it is you're reading. Not just, hey, I found some words on a web page. Not just, hey, someone told me this. I don't mean to denigrate. Look, people have very honest and sincere questions. Everybody does. If you don't have any questions about religion, well then you must not really believe because belief causes you to ask other questions. What do you think it's really going to be like in the post-mortal life?
Gerrit And what do you think, what really is the dividing line between spirit, prison and paradise? Those are normal questions. But I think often we are very quick to throw out the good that we have, and that doesn't mean that we'll have answers for everything. It doesn't mean that we have good answers for things. Look, if I read something where I'm like, whoa, gee, I didn't know that, right? And of course there's things like that. I can't say that I read it and I'm like, wow, boy, that really hurts my faith. I mean, in part because in some ways I kind of expect it. I mean, we're all humans. We all make mistakes. None of us would want someone years from now reading through a day by day entry of what we did that day. We would like to heavily redact it. It would be pretty similar to this podcast every time I mispronounce my own name.
Gerrit And what do you think, what really is the dividing line between spirit, prison and paradise? Those are normal questions. But I think often we are very quick to throw out the good that we have, and that doesn't mean that we'll have answers for everything. It doesn't mean that we have good answers for things. Look, if I read something where I'm like, whoa, gee, I didn't know that, right? And of course there's things like that. I can't say that I read it and I'm like, wow, boy, that really hurts my faith. I mean, in part because in some ways I kind of expect it. I mean, we're all humans. We all make mistakes. None of us would want someone years from now reading through a day by day entry of what we did that day. We would like to heavily redact it. It would be pretty similar to this podcast every time I mispronounce my own name.
Richard I would like to point out, all of my mistakes stay on, by the way. I'd like to point that out.
Richard I would like to point out, all of my mistakes stay on, by the way. I'd like to point that out.
Gerrit Yeah, like when he says shoot-offs, stringites.
Gerrit Yeah, like when he says shoot-offs, stringites.
Richard Yeah, stringites. Yeah, that all stays. You flub your own name, cut it out.
Richard Yeah, stringites. Yeah, that all stays. You flub your own name, cut it out.
Gerrit Yeah, welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. It's the standard of lies. So, I mean, I understand that reality. I understand that. And if people have questions, welcome to literally everyone else on earth. You're not unique because you have some kind of question about the history of the church. You're not unique because you're trying to figure out how things work. It's normal. The difference is what do you do with the question? Do you decide that if you can't find the answer to that specific question, there's no way that anything else is true? Or do you say, I want to find out an answer to this question. You look into it, you try to find it, and sometimes the answer is, it hasn't been revealed.
Gerrit Yeah, welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. It's the standard of lies. So, I mean, I understand that reality. I understand that. And if people have questions, welcome to literally everyone else on earth. You're not unique because you have some kind of question about the history of the church. You're not unique because you're trying to figure out how things work. It's normal. The difference is what do you do with the question? Do you decide that if you can't find the answer to that specific question, there's no way that anything else is true? Or do you say, I want to find out an answer to this question. You look into it, you try to find it, and sometimes the answer is, it hasn't been revealed.
Gerrit And if the answer is it hasn't been revealed, do you say, well, then I'm out? Or do you say, I really hope at some point God provides more information so that this makes sense to me. And this is exactly what Brigham Young did. We talked about this before with Doctrine and Covenants, section 76. When that was revealed, his response was, how can that possibly be true? You're saying that there is no hell. Every Christian believes that hell exists. Every single Christian. My pastors all taught me that hell exists. My parents taught me that hell exists. Every person I know believes, every single Christian then must be wrong if that is right. And as he said, you know, I didn't reject it, but I could not understand it. And then he's going to go on praying and thinking and praying and thinking and praying and thinking until he receives revelation to himself that confirms to him that D&C 76 is a real revelation from God.
Gerrit And if the answer is it hasn't been revealed, do you say, well, then I'm out? Or do you say, I really hope at some point God provides more information so that this makes sense to me. And this is exactly what Brigham Young did. We talked about this before with Doctrine and Covenants, section 76. When that was revealed, his response was, how can that possibly be true? You're saying that there is no hell. Every Christian believes that hell exists. Every single Christian. My pastors all taught me that hell exists. My parents taught me that hell exists. Every person I know believes, every single Christian then must be wrong if that is right. And as he said, you know, I didn't reject it, but I could not understand it. And then he's going to go on praying and thinking and praying and thinking and praying and thinking until he receives revelation to himself that confirms to him that D&C 76 is a real revelation from God.
Gerrit That's what I would hope that we can try to do. That instead of finding one wrench in the works and saying that's it, we're throwing it all out, realizing that there's some things that you won't have answers to. There are some things that haven't been revealed. There are some things that we can't quite piece together historically. I mean, I just spent like 40 minutes trying to explain that I didn't know when Peter, James and John came, and I still didn't make it very clear. Yeah, right now everyone's like, I have no idea what he said. But that idea, I didn't reject it, but I couldn't understand it. You don't have to fully understand everything that's taught in the church or every bit of history that's ever come to believe. Someone who tells you that you do is holding you up to a standard that they don't hold themselves up to in the things that they believe. Because it doesn't take very many questions in before they also don't have answers for the things that they say they believe.
Gerrit That's what I would hope that we can try to do. That instead of finding one wrench in the works and saying that's it, we're throwing it all out, realizing that there's some things that you won't have answers to. There are some things that haven't been revealed. There are some things that we can't quite piece together historically. I mean, I just spent like 40 minutes trying to explain that I didn't know when Peter, James and John came, and I still didn't make it very clear. Yeah, right now everyone's like, I have no idea what he said. But that idea, I didn't reject it, but I couldn't understand it. You don't have to fully understand everything that's taught in the church or every bit of history that's ever come to believe. Someone who tells you that you do is holding you up to a standard that they don't hold themselves up to in the things that they believe. Because it doesn't take very many questions in before they also don't have answers for the things that they say they believe.
Gerrit The reality is, as Christians, we believe in things, ultimately, that cannot be proven. Not definitively. Not scientifically. Not in a way that would hold up that every academic would say, oh my, what a fine theorem you've come up with. You have to have faith and believe. You have to believe because of the Holy Spirit. And so, you know, I love the question, and I'd say, for me, if ever I were to read something that makes you go, wow, I don't know how that fits in, I've had the Holy Spirit of God speak to me and tell me that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. And whether he's, you know, writes something a certain way in a letter or not is not the deciding factor on whether or not God has told me that. And I hope that there will be further revelation that will help me understand some of the questions I have. But until then, like Doctrine and Covenants, section 21, I intend to believe and follow the prophet in all patience and faith.
Gerrit The reality is, as Christians, we believe in things, ultimately, that cannot be proven. Not definitively. Not scientifically. Not in a way that would hold up that every academic would say, oh my, what a fine theorem you've come up with. You have to have faith and believe. You have to believe because of the Holy Spirit. And so, you know, I love the question, and I'd say, for me, if ever I were to read something that makes you go, wow, I don't know how that fits in, I've had the Holy Spirit of God speak to me and tell me that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. And whether he's, you know, writes something a certain way in a letter or not is not the deciding factor on whether or not God has told me that. And I hope that there will be further revelation that will help me understand some of the questions I have. But until then, like Doctrine and Covenants, section 21, I intend to believe and follow the prophet in all patience and faith.
Gerrit That's what's required of a believer. A believer humbly accepts that they don't know everything. And yeah, it's a little offensive when someone essentially says, well, you're just a blind, mindless sheep. And if you want to be mean about it, you can say, you know, you can start quoting citations to them and very quickly they'll realize that, yeah, I'm blind, but I know all of the sources that you're quoting from and you don't know them. But I just haven't read anything. I mean, it's a little bit offensive. The argument that only a liar or an idiot could possibly believe. It's the same argument that was made at the very beginning with Eber Howe and Mormonism unveiled. You don't have to know everything to believe. You just have to feel the Spirit of God to believe. That's it. So thank you for joining us on our special Standard of Truth podcast. And we will let everyone continue on with life and find something better to do with their night.
Gerrit That's what's required of a believer. A believer humbly accepts that they don't know everything. And yeah, it's a little offensive when someone essentially says, well, you're just a blind, mindless sheep. And if you want to be mean about it, you can say, you know, you can start quoting citations to them and very quickly they'll realize that, yeah, I'm blind, but I know all of the sources that you're quoting from and you don't know them. But I just haven't read anything. I mean, it's a little bit offensive. The argument that only a liar or an idiot could possibly believe. It's the same argument that was made at the very beginning with Eber Howe and Mormonism unveiled. You don't have to know everything to believe. You just have to feel the Spirit of God to believe. That's it. So thank you for joining us on our special Standard of Truth podcast. And we will let everyone continue on with life and find something better to do with their night.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth Podcast, hosted by historian, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth Podcast, hosted by historian, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.
Quote board
Make a share card from any lineYeah, I have a testimony, but it's not that strong.
Hey, we really love everything you're doing. What if you change everything?
It's just that the understanding is that love is something that grows inside of a marriage.
And I've said this before, anyone who's in a good marriage knows that you love your spouse more after you've gone through a horrible trial rather than less, right?
I can't consider being happy at all without her.
But as all of the listeners of the podcast are well aware, we don't do satisfying answers or even satisfying podcasts.
Well, we promise a lot of things that we don't deliver. We promise information, we promise humor, we promise talent.
If you don't have any questions about religion, well then you must not really believe because belief causes you to ask other questions.
You don't have to know everything to believe. You just have to feel the Spirit of God to believe.
Source shelf
15 sources cited on air · verses link to the scriptures, Joseph Smith’s documents to the Joseph Smith Papersrecord
Emma Smith, interview with her son Joseph Smith III
preferring him to any other man I knew, I accepted.
Emma explains why she accepted Joseph's proposal, a plain statement in 19th-century terms rather than a joke.
other
Surveys of unmarried men and women before World War II and in 1996 (not named on air)
Gerrit says love wasn't even in the top three qualities in the earlier survey and was nearly the only one in 1996.
book
Jane Austen, Sense and Sensibility
A shout-out to Angie, as an example of not marrying primarily for love.
letter
Oliver Cowdery's letter on the restoration of the Aaronic Priesthood, published to the church
The only source that gives the May 15 date; no Joseph Smith document records it.
revelation
D&C 27:12-13
And also with Peter and James and John, whom I have sent unto you, by whom I have ordained you and confirmed you to be apostles
Speaks of Peter, James and John's ordination of Joseph and Oliver as apostles as something already done.
revelation
D&C 128:20
The voice of Michael on the banks of the Susquehanna detecting the devil when he appeared as an angel of light.
Joseph's letter lists Moroni, the witnesses, Michael on the Susquehanna, and Peter, James and John between Harmony and Colesville.
revelation
D&C 128:20, continued
the voice of Peter, James and John in the wilderness between Harmony, Susquehanna County and Colesville, Broome County on the Susquehanna River declaring themselves as possessing the keys of the kingdom and the dispensation of the fullness of times.
Gives the location of the Melchizedek Priesthood restoration but not a date.
newspaper
Abner Cole's Palmyra Reflector
Printed stolen portions of the Book of Mormon, which sent Joseph overnight by stage to Palmyra, a trip missing from Joseph Smith—History.
book
Lucy Mack Smith's history
Tells the Abner Cole story in detail.
record
Joseph Smith—History / History of the Church, 1829-1830
Built around the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants, it leaps from July 1829 to March 1830.
record
Book of Commandments and Revelations
Holds a revelation from that gap that never made it into the Doctrine and Covenants.
revelation
D&C 128:21
And again, the voice of God in the chamber of old Father Whitmer in Fayette, Seneca County.
The voice of God in Father Whitmer's chamber telling Joseph and Oliver to ordain each other elders.
revelation
D&C 76
I didn't reject it, but I could not understand it.
Brigham Young's struggle with the vision, Gerrit's model for handling troubling information.
revelation
D&C 21:5
Gerrit intends to follow the prophet "in all patience and faith."
book
E. D. Howe, Mormonism Unveiled
The "liar or idiot" argument goes back to it. The transcript renders Howe's name as "Ibraha."
Episode quiz
Pass to stamp your passportQuestion 1 of 8Score 0
According to Gerrit, what's the surest way to get your question answered on the podcast?
Fun with Numbers
This episode, counted from its transcript54:46long
2.8 minbefore the topic starts
15sources read or named
6scripture passages
8different years mentioned
0dollar amounts said
From 1827 to 1996
Every year mentioned in the episode. Tap one to jump to it.
Percentages said on air
Putting numbers to words
All 8,551 words of the automatic transcript, counted against a word list for each theme. It shows how much a theme comes up, not what was said about it. See the lists
What this episode talks about more than usual
- Prophets and priesthood27 mentions, 1.8 times the show’s usual rate
- Scripture30 mentions, 1.7 times the show’s usual rate
- Faith and prayer15 mentions, 1.5 times the show’s usual rate
Names said most
Joseph counts any Joseph.
Joseph 62Brigham Young 9Oliver Cowdery 8Emma Smith 8Sidney Rigdon 4the Whitmers 3
Signature words
Said often here and in few other episodes.
offshoot 11string 6satisfying 4ordain 5prompted 4marrying 4
More from this episode
Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.
Claim check
What critics say, and what the episode foundJoseph and Emma married because of a whirlwind romance like the one in church movies.
If something as important as the Melchizedek Priesthood restoration happened, Joseph would have written down the date.
If you knew what critics know, you couldn't believe.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.
Take it to class
Ready to copy into a lesson or a textEmma said she accepted Joseph "preferring him to any other man I knew." Their love grew deeper through terrible trials, as it does in good marriages.
D&C 27 and 128 tell us Peter, James and John ordained Joseph and Oliver apostles between Harmony and Colesville, even though no record gives the date.
Before you let one source change your life, find out who wrote it, where it is, and what its context was.
Like Brigham Young with D&C 76, you can say "I didn't reject it, but I could not understand it" and keep praying until more light comes.
Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.
Banter bin
The running jokes, for people who skip aheadLive before a studio audienceThe ninth take of the opening, cheers on prompt, and Gerrit introducing himself as "Professor Gerrit Ferfman" (0:52).
Pretend to be Richard's familyPretend to be his son, his mom, or eventually his second cousin twice removed, or just come on tour (2:08).
Gerrit the dream crusher"We should call it Dream Crusher Tours," for anyone hoping for a riverbank courtship (3:47).
The 165th regiment of footWhat happens if Gerrit starts on the Revolution on the bus (2:38).
We're huge in Cache ValleyFour, maybe five listeners; two in Franklin County; none in Duchesne, Daggett or Fillmore (13:12).
The sacrament meeting jokeAngie said yes to the first person who ever asked; a barn burner in sacrament, Johnny Carson level (9:22).
Richard and the sports bettingHeat at plus 650, explained in pieces of bread, or walnuts, or pelts, because they're against gambling (28:28, 30:37).
The shoot-off branchesRichard's reading of "offshoots," and the Stringites; Gerrit links it to the great Carthage shoot-off of Willard Richards (34:11, 36:40).
Episodes promised, never madeThe succession crisis series, again (34:36).
WisconsinGerrit's door approach on his mission was "let me tell you how God was once a man," and the Wisconsin pineries come up too (39:28, 41:31).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag
Your question could be next week’s episodeQuestions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
General ConferenceGeneral Conference talks that cite a scripture read in this episode.
In General Conference
Talks from the latest General Conference that cite a scripture this episode reads or names on airSummaries, themes and lessons for every talk are on What Did They Say?
Go deeperWhere to read more.
Go deeper
Deep dives the episode points towardRead D&C 128:20-21 slowly: Moroni, Michael on the Susquehanna, Peter, James and John, and the voice in Father Whitmer's chamber (20:45).
Abner Cole, the Palmyra Reflector, and the fight over pirated Book of Mormon pages (25:15).
The offshoot movements after 1844: Sidney Rigdon, James Strang, William Smith, Lyman Wight and Alpheus Cutler (37:15).
How courtship and marriage expectations changed from the 19th century to today (7:52).
SOT Litner · S3E25.