Everyone's trying new ways to get Richard to read their email, and it seems to be working.
Standard of Truth · Season 3 · Episode 26 · 57:01
Apostles and Apostates Part 1 (the Calling of the Twelve Apostles)
Thomas B. Marsh became the first president of the Quorum of the Twelve because the apostles were first seated by age, and David W. Patten was off by a year on his own birthday.
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The question ·
Why wasn't the Quorum of the Twelve organized right away, and how did the first apostles rank?
Gerrit
The hosts look back on the June tour, from an applause sign that was really an exit sign to a hunt for Fresca and a Kirtland testimony meeting that ran right up against the bus schedule. The mailbag brings a missionary mom, a lonely man who wants to text jokes to the podcast, and Alec, whose fiancee took Gerrit's class, which sparks a new series on apostles and apostates. Gerrit explains that D&C 18 gave the Three Witnesses the job of choosing the Twelve, but the quorum wasn't called until 1835. He reads the minutes of the first ordinations, starting with Lyman Johnson, and explains why the quorum was first ranked by age. The Twelve began as a traveling high council outside the stakes, and Gerrit closes by noting that some of these chosen men would later lose their faith.
Who comes upOliver CowderyDavid WhitmerMartin HarrisLyman JohnsonBrigham YoungHeber C. KimballThomas B. MarshDavid W. PattenOrson PrattHyrum SmithJoseph Smith
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The tour, recapped
Richard explains the exit-sign applause cue, and the hosts hunt for a Fresca.
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302 moments · tap a time to play from thereIntro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.
Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.
Richard Hello, Genriff. In this episode of the Standard of Truth podcast, we're gonna answer a couple of email questions that we have. We're gonna do a little Apostles and Apostates. But before we jump into that, wanted to talk a little bit about the tour that we just concluded. Gerrit, your thoughts.
Richard Hello, Genriff. In this episode of the Standard of Truth podcast, we're gonna answer a couple of email questions that we have. We're gonna do a little Apostles and Apostates. But before we jump into that, wanted to talk a little bit about the tour that we just concluded. Gerrit, your thoughts.
Gerrit Well, I gotta say, you know, there was only a few times that we nearly had to have a panic attack because we weren't able to make our scheduled times. Honestly, the tour was amazing. Those of you who are listening to every week's podcast, and this isn't your first week, you heard our little live audience. My son Kai, when he heard that, said, so you guys just piped in the sound of people clapping.
Gerrit Well, I gotta say, you know, there was only a few times that we nearly had to have a panic attack because we weren't able to make our scheduled times. Honestly, the tour was amazing. Those of you who are listening to every week's podcast, and this isn't your first week, you heard our little live audience. My son Kai, when he heard that, said, so you guys just piped in the sound of people clapping.
Other That's what he said. So my own son doesn't believe that we could have gotten people to actually clap in an in-person broadcast.
Other That's what he said. So my own son doesn't believe that we could have gotten people to actually clap in an in-person broadcast.
Richard Well, in fairness, they weren't clapping on their own. They were clapping when I cued them to clap because I don't know that they would necessarily would have clapped on their own. But they...
Richard Well, in fairness, they weren't clapping on their own. They were clapping when I cued them to clap because I don't know that they would necessarily would have clapped on their own. But they...
Gerrit So we had an applause sign, is what you're saying.
Gerrit So we had an applause sign, is what you're saying.
Richard Well, I said there was an exit sign, and I said, as long as that's lit up, that's when I want you to applaud.
Richard Well, I said there was an exit sign, and I said, as long as that's lit up, that's when I want you to applaud.
Gerrit I see.
Gerrit I see.
Richard I see. It was an absolute blast. And there were 46 total people that were on the tour, and Present Company excluded some of the best people that I've ever met. Just absolutely wonderful.
Richard I see. It was an absolute blast. And there were 46 total people that were on the tour, and Present Company excluded some of the best people that I've ever met. Just absolutely wonderful.
Gerrit Yeah, and it only took Richard trying for a few hours to track down a Fresca to really, really win over at least one of our tour members. Although Jeff seems a little put out now that he didn't know that Fresca was in the offing, and he kind of feels like maybe he's been Fresca-shorted.
Gerrit Yeah, and it only took Richard trying for a few hours to track down a Fresca to really, really win over at least one of our tour members. Although Jeff seems a little put out now that he didn't know that Fresca was in the offing, and he kind of feels like maybe he's been Fresca-shorted.
Richard The Standard of Truth podcast is all about the one, Gerrit.
Richard The Standard of Truth podcast is all about the one, Gerrit.
Other Yeah, we leave the 90 and 90 in the wilderness. We go out to find the Fresca.
Other Yeah, we leave the 90 and 90 in the wilderness. We go out to find the Fresca.
Richard So one of the things that was unique, so Gerrit, you've led 14, 15 tours on different tour companies, right? Different sites, and they're all wonderful and great. One of the things that actually the highlight of the entire tour was the amount of hard time that was given to each other on the WhatsApp. The WhatsApp was absolutely hilarious. It was very fun as people of similar sensibilities to Gerrit and myself were on there, and there were great spiritual experiences, and there were great hilarious experiences, and on the whole, it was an absolute blast, and we're going to do it again. I think, Gerrit, we're looking at next summer. I think we're looking at potentially October or November of next summer.
Richard So one of the things that was unique, so Gerrit, you've led 14, 15 tours on different tour companies, right? Different sites, and they're all wonderful and great. One of the things that actually the highlight of the entire tour was the amount of hard time that was given to each other on the WhatsApp. The WhatsApp was absolutely hilarious. It was very fun as people of similar sensibilities to Gerrit and myself were on there, and there were great spiritual experiences, and there were great hilarious experiences, and on the whole, it was an absolute blast, and we're going to do it again. I think, Gerrit, we're looking at next summer. I think we're looking at potentially October or November of next summer.
Gerrit That's an homage to the fact that I think every time Richard ever announced the tour dates, it was always wrong.
Gerrit That's an homage to the fact that I think every time Richard ever announced the tour dates, it was always wrong.
Other So he's just going to go all in at this point.
Other So he's just going to go all in at this point.
Gerrit We're going to try to go June 3rd. It was the best weather you could have possibly had. We honestly had so many great experiences though. In fact, I got to say we had like a miraculous experience where Rachel's mom of Rachel's mom's fame, which everyone on the tour got to meet. And they also got to meet my mom.
Gerrit We're going to try to go June 3rd. It was the best weather you could have possibly had. We honestly had so many great experiences though. In fact, I got to say we had like a miraculous experience where Rachel's mom of Rachel's mom's fame, which everyone on the tour got to meet. And they also got to meet my mom.
Richard They just came from Antarctic.
Richard They just came from Antarctic.
Gerrit Yeah.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard By the way.
Richard By the way.
Gerrit Which is the only reason why they thought the tour was any good. I mean, because you just came from Antarctica. It's like, well, there's more green on this tour, I guess. But their granddaughter, who's actually in my ward, she was on a youth trip at the exact same time going across country. And somehow, somehow, we stopped at the Morley farm in Ohio.
Gerrit Which is the only reason why they thought the tour was any good. I mean, because you just came from Antarctica. It's like, well, there's more green on this tour, I guess. But their granddaughter, who's actually in my ward, she was on a youth trip at the exact same time going across country. And somehow, somehow, we stopped at the Morley farm in Ohio.
Richard Which is the least attended of any church site.
Richard Which is the least attended of any church site.
Gerrit Yeah, the Morley farm doesn't have missionaries at it anymore. It's kind of a self-guided and there's nothing really there. And that's what we do at Standard of Truth Tourism. We want to take you to places, not only that no one else goes, but that no one would ever want to go because there's nothing there.
Gerrit Yeah, the Morley farm doesn't have missionaries at it anymore. It's kind of a self-guided and there's nothing really there. And that's what we do at Standard of Truth Tourism. We want to take you to places, not only that no one else goes, but that no one would ever want to go because there's nothing there.
Other There's no visitor center, there's no missionaries.
Other There's no visitor center, there's no missionaries.
Gerrit There was a plaque, it had been graffitied by some local Ohio ruffian named Eber Howe probably. But there's some great miracles that took place in the church there. And while we were there, their granddaughter's bus full of kids stopped and they saw each other and it was a beautiful experience. And so for both Rex and Rachel's mom, we'll still keep her name anonymous because we don't want, we don't want her inundated with the fan mail that we know she's going to get.
Gerrit There was a plaque, it had been graffitied by some local Ohio ruffian named Eber Howe probably. But there's some great miracles that took place in the church there. And while we were there, their granddaughter's bus full of kids stopped and they saw each other and it was a beautiful experience. And so for both Rex and Rachel's mom, we'll still keep her name anonymous because we don't want, we don't want her inundated with the fan mail that we know she's going to get.
Richard So there was, I get asked all the time, Richard, what was your favorite part of the tour? All the time. I'm constantly just-
Richard So there was, I get asked all the time, Richard, what was your favorite part of the tour? All the time. I'm constantly just-
Gerrit You have people walking up to you on the street and saying-
Gerrit You have people walking up to you on the street and saying-
Richard Yeah, Richard, what was your favorite part of the tour? And what is it that you do? And so my favorite part of the tour was the Fast and Testimony meeting in Kirtland, Ohio. Now there's a couple of reasons for that. Several of them I will not share, but a couple of them I will. So the first thing is that as we are headed over to church in Kirtland, Ohio, we had a very tight window to get back to the hotel, to get in, to change our clothes, to grab our bags, to put them under the bus, to grab something to eat, and then to get to the Kirtland Temple. The Kirtland Temple was pretty lined up with appointments. And so we have a very small window in which to be able to go. The tour ends with the Kirtland Temple, right? It's absolutely beautiful and it was great. And so church in Kirtland gets out at 10 or starts at 10 a.m.
Richard Yeah, Richard, what was your favorite part of the tour? And what is it that you do? And so my favorite part of the tour was the Fast and Testimony meeting in Kirtland, Ohio. Now there's a couple of reasons for that. Several of them I will not share, but a couple of them I will. So the first thing is that as we are headed over to church in Kirtland, Ohio, we had a very tight window to get back to the hotel, to get in, to change our clothes, to grab our bags, to put them under the bus, to grab something to eat, and then to get to the Kirtland Temple. The Kirtland Temple was pretty lined up with appointments. And so we have a very small window in which to be able to go. The tour ends with the Kirtland Temple, right? It's absolutely beautiful and it was great. And so church in Kirtland gets out at 10 or starts at 10 a.m.
Richard So we're just going to go to sacrament meeting and then back and ba-ba-ba. Things are pretty, pretty tight. So as we're headed over to the church, Gerrit is very clear that I don't want you to talk to anyone. I don't want you to make friends. I want you as soon as they pray, as soon as Amen is said, I want you to stand up and run to the bus, run to the bus. Gerrit's mother required kind of a walker crutch and he's like, we'll leave her. She can't make it. There isn't time.
Richard So we're just going to go to sacrament meeting and then back and ba-ba-ba. Things are pretty, pretty tight. So as we're headed over to the church, Gerrit is very clear that I don't want you to talk to anyone. I don't want you to make friends. I want you as soon as they pray, as soon as Amen is said, I want you to stand up and run to the bus, run to the bus. Gerrit's mother required kind of a walker crutch and he's like, we'll leave her. She can't make it. There isn't time.
Other So we need to run. She's a gift to Ohio at this point, because we don't have time to get her on the bus.
Other So we need to run. She's a gift to Ohio at this point, because we don't have time to get her on the bus.
Richard Right. We must go. So right at 11, we've got to go. So it was the second Sunday in June. So it's a standard sacrament meeting.
Richard Right. We must go. So right at 11, we've got to go. So it was the second Sunday in June. So it's a standard sacrament meeting.
Gerrit Right. Our fear was, what if it's a missionary farewell or a high councilman is speaking? Sure.
Gerrit Right. Our fear was, what if it's a missionary farewell or a high councilman is speaking? Sure.
Richard It's a bit of a wild card. You don't know what you're going to get. So our bus driver, Pete, shout out to Pete who was absolutely great on the entire tour. He was a great guy. He asked if he could come to church with us.
Richard It's a bit of a wild card. You don't know what you're going to get. So our bus driver, Pete, shout out to Pete who was absolutely great on the entire tour. He was a great guy. He asked if he could come to church with us.
Gerrit Which is a really fatal mistake to make in a busload of Mormons.
Gerrit Which is a really fatal mistake to make in a busload of Mormons.
Richard Right. Well, right. I said, no, of course you can't come. We don't want you to come.
Richard Right. Well, right. I said, no, of course you can't come. We don't want you to come.
Gerrit Well, in hindsight, you should have said, of course you can't come. Wait, let me go in and see who's talking and what they're talking about first. Then, I honestly feel like sometimes when we bring investigators to church, we should have the translation stuff that you can put on people, in case English isn't their first language. What if we put that on everybody? Then just someone was speaking into their ear. He's saying a lot of stuff that we don't actually believe right now, but he's saying that we do. Okay, no. Oh yeah, baptism, we believe in baptism. So yeah, he thinks baptism is important.
Gerrit Well, in hindsight, you should have said, of course you can't come. Wait, let me go in and see who's talking and what they're talking about first. Then, I honestly feel like sometimes when we bring investigators to church, we should have the translation stuff that you can put on people, in case English isn't their first language. What if we put that on everybody? Then just someone was speaking into their ear. He's saying a lot of stuff that we don't actually believe right now, but he's saying that we do. Okay, no. Oh yeah, baptism, we believe in baptism. So yeah, he thinks baptism is important.
Richard Well, so Gerrit, you wouldn't know this on your mission in Wisconsin, but in California, when people would come, investigators would come to church, they were like this little precious bird in the palm of your hand. You were just so glad that they were there and hoping that they had this great thing, hoping that somebody didn't say something nuts. As we were walking in, we were telling Peter, so this is what church is like, this is how this goes. He was raised Catholic and it's like, hey, so it's a little like this. Anyway, so as we're going in, we found out that the Columbus Temple had just been rededicated the week before, and so this was a fast testimony. Then I had to explain to Pete what a fast testimony meeting was. It was like, all right, Pete, so here's what happens. Once a month, members of the congregation, they go up and they share their testimony, their feelings about Jesus and the gospel. Many of the things that you've heard Gerrit talk about on the tour for the past week. Sometimes it's beautiful, it's profound, it's spiritual, and it's great.
Richard Well, so Gerrit, you wouldn't know this on your mission in Wisconsin, but in California, when people would come, investigators would come to church, they were like this little precious bird in the palm of your hand. You were just so glad that they were there and hoping that they had this great thing, hoping that somebody didn't say something nuts. As we were walking in, we were telling Peter, so this is what church is like, this is how this goes. He was raised Catholic and it's like, hey, so it's a little like this. Anyway, so as we're going in, we found out that the Columbus Temple had just been rededicated the week before, and so this was a fast testimony. Then I had to explain to Pete what a fast testimony meeting was. It was like, all right, Pete, so here's what happens. Once a month, members of the congregation, they go up and they share their testimony, their feelings about Jesus and the gospel. Many of the things that you've heard Gerrit talk about on the tour for the past week. Sometimes it's beautiful, it's profound, it's spiritual, and it's great.
Richard And sometimes it's crazy. And Pete, just so you know, when someone talks about their cat for a half hour, we also think that's weird. So if someone does that, I just want you to be aware. Anyway, the problem now is, oh, go ahead, Gerrit.
Richard And sometimes it's crazy. And Pete, just so you know, when someone talks about their cat for a half hour, we also think that's weird. So if someone does that, I just want you to be aware. Anyway, the problem now is, oh, go ahead, Gerrit.
Gerrit Well, I was gonna say whatever level of prep you gave him was woefully inadequate.
Gerrit Well, I was gonna say whatever level of prep you gave him was woefully inadequate.
Other Whatever level of prep you gave him, I should tell you right now, it was...
Other Whatever level of prep you gave him, I should tell you right now, it was...
Richard Well, so what was great is, so we get there, the ward's super nice, everyone's great. Everyone's always wonderful and great. And so we find out three minutes before that two buses of the youth group are now coming. And so my wife leans over to Pete and says, all right, Pete, here's what's gonna happen. Those kids are gonna sit back. And then about five minutes before, a bunch of kids are gonna go up and bear their testimonies. We're gonna go way over on time. Here, it's gonna be stressed and it's gonna be hilarious.
Richard Well, so what was great is, so we get there, the ward's super nice, everyone's great. Everyone's always wonderful and great. And so we find out three minutes before that two buses of the youth group are now coming. And so my wife leans over to Pete and says, all right, Pete, here's what's gonna happen. Those kids are gonna sit back. And then about five minutes before, a bunch of kids are gonna go up and bear their testimonies. We're gonna go way over on time. Here, it's gonna be stressed and it's gonna be hilarious.
Other Yeah, yeah.
Other Yeah, yeah.
Gerrit And that's literally what happened.
Gerrit And that's literally what happened.
Richard It's literally what happened.
Richard It's literally what happened.
Gerrit Becky is now going to be referred to as Deborah the prophetess.
Gerrit Becky is now going to be referred to as Deborah the prophetess.
Richard So what was great is so Gerrit was so direct on how tight the budget, or the budget, how tight the-
Richard So what was great is so Gerrit was so direct on how tight the budget, or the budget, how tight the-
Other The budget didn't even exist. That was the problem in the first place.
Other The budget didn't even exist. That was the problem in the first place.
Richard How tight the schedule was. Anyway, three minutes before one kid goes up, they were all holding back. And the thing is, is that many of these kids were in some of these very sacred places, filling the spirit. Many of them may be for the first time in a way that was very profound. But the first kid gets up with three minutes left. And then three more kids get up. And then two more kids get up. And Pete is rolling on the ground laughing as this is happening. And everyone that's on our tour is looking back at Gerrit, who on our way down essentially said, and Gerrit, correct me if I'm wrong, that you need to be aggressive in getting to the bus. And I said, push people down if you have to. Which Gerrit replied that you have to punch someone in the face to give them the opportunity to turn the other cheek.
Richard How tight the schedule was. Anyway, three minutes before one kid goes up, they were all holding back. And the thing is, is that many of these kids were in some of these very sacred places, filling the spirit. Many of them may be for the first time in a way that was very profound. But the first kid gets up with three minutes left. And then three more kids get up. And then two more kids get up. And Pete is rolling on the ground laughing as this is happening. And everyone that's on our tour is looking back at Gerrit, who on our way down essentially said, and Gerrit, correct me if I'm wrong, that you need to be aggressive in getting to the bus. And I said, push people down if you have to. Which Gerrit replied that you have to punch someone in the face to give them the opportunity to turn the other cheek.
Gerrit I said it in jest.
Gerrit I said it in jest.
Other I said, like, I know people are gonna wanna talk to you.
Other I said, like, I know people are gonna wanna talk to you.
Gerrit Talk to them before the meeting. We're getting there an hour early. You wanna walk around, take pictures, meet everybody, shake hands, do that before.
Gerrit Talk to them before the meeting. We're getting there an hour early. You wanna walk around, take pictures, meet everybody, shake hands, do that before.
Other After the meeting, I don't care if what they want to say to you.
Other After the meeting, I don't care if what they want to say to you.
Gerrit After the meeting, we've gotta go or we're gonna miss our appointment at the temple. So after the meeting, you're shoving people down flights of stairs to get to the bus. And I did say in jest, in jest something along like, well, sometimes you have to punch people in the face in order to give them the opportunity to turn the other cheek.
Gerrit After the meeting, we've gotta go or we're gonna miss our appointment at the temple. So after the meeting, you're shoving people down flights of stairs to get to the bus. And I did say in jest, in jest something along like, well, sometimes you have to punch people in the face in order to give them the opportunity to turn the other cheek.
Richard Yeah, well, so anyway, we got to the hotel. The problem is then the keys aren't gonna be working. We had like a three minute window. Kim and Brent, they're sprinting down the hallways to get to their rooms. Anyway, it was great. So we're looking at next year, June 3rd, heading into, so a little bit of American history and a little bit of church history. So into likely Baltimore, details could be coming, but we'll do some Gettysburg, some McHenry, right? Was that-
Richard Yeah, well, so anyway, we got to the hotel. The problem is then the keys aren't gonna be working. We had like a three minute window. Kim and Brent, they're sprinting down the hallways to get to their rooms. Anyway, it was great. So we're looking at next year, June 3rd, heading into, so a little bit of American history and a little bit of church history. So into likely Baltimore, details could be coming, but we'll do some Gettysburg, some McHenry, right? Was that-
Gerrit Or McHenry, yeah, if we go there, that'd be great.
Gerrit Or McHenry, yeah, if we go there, that'd be great.
Richard And then the standard church history tour from there minus Vermont, sorry, to our Vermont contingent. Sharon's a little out of the way, so we're changing things up a little bit. And then, so that would go the third through the ninth, and then right after that, Missouri and Illinois, the 10th through the 15th of June. So that's tentative, what we're having. We're arranging things with the buses and the hotels and all the stuff. And as soon as we have that squared away, then we'll put that on the website and we hope that y'all join us. It was an absolute blast.
Richard And then the standard church history tour from there minus Vermont, sorry, to our Vermont contingent. Sharon's a little out of the way, so we're changing things up a little bit. And then, so that would go the third through the ninth, and then right after that, Missouri and Illinois, the 10th through the 15th of June. So that's tentative, what we're having. We're arranging things with the buses and the hotels and all the stuff. And as soon as we have that squared away, then we'll put that on the website and we hope that y'all join us. It was an absolute blast.
Gerrit It was, some amazing people, honestly. It was the most fun that I've had. I mean, just both hanging out with Becky and Richard, along with me and Angie. We had our daughters with us, but we had just some amazing people come on this tour. So that's what we look forward to, is meeting some more. But let's get into our mailbag.
Gerrit It was, some amazing people, honestly. It was the most fun that I've had. I mean, just both hanging out with Becky and Richard, along with me and Angie. We had our daughters with us, but we had just some amazing people come on this tour. So that's what we look forward to, is meeting some more. But let's get into our mailbag.
Richard Yes, let's get into the Phebe Draper mailbag here. This one, Family Tree says we are brothers.
Richard Yes, let's get into the Phebe Draper mailbag here. This one, Family Tree says we are brothers.
Gerrit That's the subject?
Gerrit That's the subject?
Richard The subject.
Richard The subject.
Gerrit Everyone's trying new ways to get Richard to read their email, and it seems to be working.
Gerrit Everyone's trying new ways to get Richard to read their email, and it seems to be working.
Richard It is obviously working. I absolutely love your podcast and sharing stuff with my daughter, serving a mission each week. She is in New Hampshire. Say hi to Craig Wilson. That's me saying to your missionary daughter, who isn't listening to the podcast. I wish she could listen to your podcast. I promise that if you tell me how I can get the podcast to her each week, I will sign up for premium content.
Richard It is obviously working. I absolutely love your podcast and sharing stuff with my daughter, serving a mission each week. She is in New Hampshire. Say hi to Craig Wilson. That's me saying to your missionary daughter, who isn't listening to the podcast. I wish she could listen to your podcast. I promise that if you tell me how I can get the podcast to her each week, I will sign up for premium content.
Other Whoa, hey, well.
Other Whoa, hey, well.
Richard You know what?
Richard You know what?
Gerrit We're just desperate enough, we're gonna do it.
Gerrit We're just desperate enough, we're gonna do it.
Richard Yeah, well, so Steve, I'll send... I don't know what the rules are. If she was somebody tasked with going on and seeing what missionaries have on their phone and deleting it, then she could listen to it like another missionary has done before.
Richard Yeah, well, so Steve, I'll send... I don't know what the rules are. If she was somebody tasked with going on and seeing what missionaries have on their phone and deleting it, then she could listen to it like another missionary has done before.
Gerrit Yeah, I think, was that a missionary in Wisconsin that was illegally listening to it?
Gerrit Yeah, I think, was that a missionary in Wisconsin that was illegally listening to it?
Richard I think it was.
Richard I think it was.
Gerrit Well, I mean, luckily he was listening to that. So, you know, we are slowly uploading the audio of our podcast to YouTube, which some missions allow people to listen to something on YouTube.
Gerrit Well, I mean, luckily he was listening to that. So, you know, we are slowly uploading the audio of our podcast to YouTube, which some missions allow people to listen to something on YouTube.
Richard But I don't know if that will. So Steve, I'll send you an email and we'll give you the direct link to them.
Richard But I don't know if that will. So Steve, I'll send you an email and we'll give you the direct link to them.
Gerrit We'll figure something out. We'll figure something. Although, frankly, Steve, we don't even know if you have a daughter. I mean, we don't know you.
Gerrit We'll figure something out. We'll figure something. Although, frankly, Steve, we don't even know if you have a daughter. I mean, we don't know you.
Richard I really don't believe you that you're going to sign up for premium.
Richard I really don't believe you that you're going to sign up for premium.
Gerrit It would be different if you are already signed up for premium, then we could trust you. Plus we'd have your credit card information. But now, now we're just going off of the belief that maybe, maybe you have a daughter.
Gerrit It would be different if you are already signed up for premium, then we could trust you. Plus we'd have your credit card information. But now, now we're just going off of the belief that maybe, maybe you have a daughter.
Richard You sign up first and then we'll-
Richard You sign up first and then we'll-
Other Yeah, they'll talk to us.
Other Yeah, they'll talk to us.
Richard Just kidding, Steve. I'll send an email over to you that'll have some of that stuff. This next one, Dear Jewish French Canadian, soon to be Dr. LeDuc.
Richard Just kidding, Steve. I'll send an email over to you that'll have some of that stuff. This next one, Dear Jewish French Canadian, soon to be Dr. LeDuc.
Gerrit I hope that's your title, Jewish French Canadian Dr. LeDuc.
Gerrit I hope that's your title, Jewish French Canadian Dr. LeDuc.
Richard And the Dr. Dirkmaat. So when I, so on my, I may have mentioned this on the podcast before, but on my letter, so on my mission, I wrote letters. And in my return address was our mission address, whatever. And it was Super Jewish Mormon Missionary, was what I had as the return name there above. But greetings from the once option of the saints in the Willamette Valley of the state of Oregon. I was referred to your podcast for the end of December, 2022, by my elders quorum president, as a good source of learning about the historical sources of doctrine. First of all, great elders quorum president. Recommendation came with a warning. Okay, we know what? I take back the thing I said about the elders quorum president. The recommendation came with a warning that the two of you can be quite silly sometimes. There's no evidence of that. And if I can endure the self-deprecating humor, I might enjoy it. Since that introduction, I have listened to all of the free content and just finished catching up last week.
Richard And the Dr. Dirkmaat. So when I, so on my, I may have mentioned this on the podcast before, but on my letter, so on my mission, I wrote letters. And in my return address was our mission address, whatever. And it was Super Jewish Mormon Missionary, was what I had as the return name there above. But greetings from the once option of the saints in the Willamette Valley of the state of Oregon. I was referred to your podcast for the end of December, 2022, by my elders quorum president, as a good source of learning about the historical sources of doctrine. First of all, great elders quorum president. Recommendation came with a warning. Okay, we know what? I take back the thing I said about the elders quorum president. The recommendation came with a warning that the two of you can be quite silly sometimes. There's no evidence of that. And if I can endure the self-deprecating humor, I might enjoy it. Since that introduction, I have listened to all of the free content and just finished catching up last week.
Richard Well, I am a sap for self-deprecation and it is probably the primary reason why I haven't been translated yet, but I digress. I can feel fortunate that I don't have a degenerate gambling addiction. I would like to refer you to President Inglis' 2005 conference address from April on gambling and have avoided giving betting lines far after an event has taken place in the Back to the Future 2 Biff style wealth generating scheme. Happy to see that the Likers got me. Well, thanks, Rex. I appreciate it. He had an additional question. We're not going to be able to get to it in this particular episode, but hopefully sometime in the future. Then this email here that will lead us toward Apostles and Apostates. No, I skipped one. Skipped one from our good friend Damian. I apologize. Honestly, it's been a little tough on my testimony to have all these faith-promoting stories debunked.
Richard Well, I am a sap for self-deprecation and it is probably the primary reason why I haven't been translated yet, but I digress. I can feel fortunate that I don't have a degenerate gambling addiction. I would like to refer you to President Inglis' 2005 conference address from April on gambling and have avoided giving betting lines far after an event has taken place in the Back to the Future 2 Biff style wealth generating scheme. Happy to see that the Likers got me. Well, thanks, Rex. I appreciate it. He had an additional question. We're not going to be able to get to it in this particular episode, but hopefully sometime in the future. Then this email here that will lead us toward Apostles and Apostates. No, I skipped one. Skipped one from our good friend Damian. I apologize. Honestly, it's been a little tough on my testimony to have all these faith-promoting stories debunked.
Richard Fortunately, we can still look to the inspiring true stories of the Steed family to uplift us in time for more.
Richard Fortunately, we can still look to the inspiring true stories of the Steed family to uplift us in time for more.
Gerrit For those of you who don't know, that's the Work of the Glory family, which is a work of fiction. Well, sorry, Damian.
Gerrit For those of you who don't know, that's the Work of the Glory family, which is a work of fiction. Well, sorry, Damian.
Richard Thanks for holding the standard up high, PS. I listened to your podcast so much, I feel like texting you guys during the podcast when I have a joke. Thanks for teaching and uplifting while it feels like I'm just hanging out with my friends. I am a lonely, lonely man. PS, if you could send a shout out to my friend, Brian Watkins, who gets everyone he knows to listen to your podcast, that would be great.
Richard Thanks for holding the standard up high, PS. I listened to your podcast so much, I feel like texting you guys during the podcast when I have a joke. Thanks for teaching and uplifting while it feels like I'm just hanging out with my friends. I am a lonely, lonely man. PS, if you could send a shout out to my friend, Brian Watkins, who gets everyone he knows to listen to your podcast, that would be great.
Gerrit Thanks, Brian.
Gerrit Thanks, Brian.
Richard My name is mentioned on the podcast. I'm usually an episode behind Trudging Through the Premium. That's funny.
Richard My name is mentioned on the podcast. I'm usually an episode behind Trudging Through the Premium. That's funny.
Gerrit We should have named one of the podcasts Trudging Through the Content. We really missed that opportunity there.
Gerrit We should have named one of the podcasts Trudging Through the Content. We really missed that opportunity there.
Richard Apostles and Apostates, we stole that from Damian too, actually.
Richard Apostles and Apostates, we stole that from Damian too, actually.
Gerrit I think Damian just wants to believe we stole it from him.
Gerrit I think Damian just wants to believe we stole it from him.
Richard PPS, are you going to do a series on the CES letter, aka, now that's what I call anti-Mormonism volume 12.
Richard PPS, are you going to do a series on the CES letter, aka, now that's what I call anti-Mormonism volume 12.
Gerrit That'd be hilarious.
Gerrit That'd be hilarious.
Richard That's very funny, the collection of greatest hits from the 70s. All right. Hello, Gerrit and Chancellor LeDuc. My name is Alec. My fiance took Gerrit's class this past semester and brought me to a lecture and it was fantastic. It was the day Gerrit offered an A on the final exam to anyone that could make the 13th Apostle was when Orson Pratt was readmitted and one gal nailed it with a mass alignment. If that rings any bells. I've become a fan of the podcast since then. I didn't send the email and came back to it two weeks ago. So this is an edit saying that if he was caller 10, he would have been a proud owner of a Chile's gift certificate. Anyway, he works at the MTC teaching Spanish as well as English as a foreign language and a story I'd love to share with new missionaries is Joseph Smith's experience in liberal jail, talking about trials and experience since many missionaries are experiencing new challenges in the MTC to a different degree.
Richard That's very funny, the collection of greatest hits from the 70s. All right. Hello, Gerrit and Chancellor LeDuc. My name is Alec. My fiance took Gerrit's class this past semester and brought me to a lecture and it was fantastic. It was the day Gerrit offered an A on the final exam to anyone that could make the 13th Apostle was when Orson Pratt was readmitted and one gal nailed it with a mass alignment. If that rings any bells. I've become a fan of the podcast since then. I didn't send the email and came back to it two weeks ago. So this is an edit saying that if he was caller 10, he would have been a proud owner of a Chile's gift certificate. Anyway, he works at the MTC teaching Spanish as well as English as a foreign language and a story I'd love to share with new missionaries is Joseph Smith's experience in liberal jail, talking about trials and experience since many missionaries are experiencing new challenges in the MTC to a different degree.
Richard I would love to hear some deeper insights specifically on the prophets' experiences inside of Liberty Jail and how it molded him going forward. I'm close to becoming a premium listener. Give me a seven word argument why I should subscribe.
Richard I would love to hear some deeper insights specifically on the prophets' experiences inside of Liberty Jail and how it molded him going forward. I'm close to becoming a premium listener. Give me a seven word argument why I should subscribe.
Gerrit Wow.
Gerrit Wow.
Richard Thanks, Alec.
Richard Thanks, Alec.
Gerrit A seven word argument. So I have to like count those out. So it'd be like, hey, Alec, we need your money now.
Gerrit A seven word argument. So I have to like count those out. So it'd be like, hey, Alec, we need your money now.
Richard I thought you were going to go with please, but I'm glad you were.
Richard I thought you were going to go with please, but I'm glad you were.
Other No, no, no. It's a demand. We demand that you grant us that.
Other No, no, no. It's a demand. We demand that you grant us that.
Gerrit Now, well, while I'm not probably going to answer that question right now, the whole topic of apostles has really kind of piqued our interest. I mean, with the idea of covering some of the apostles and apostates, I thought maybe first we could talk about the organization of the Quorum of the Twelve to begin with. I know we talked about this earlier, many, many, many podcasts ago, many, many free frescoes and inside jokes about various aspects, things coming from Damien ago. We talked about it. And it's probably a surprise to a lot of members of the church when they learn that the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles is not immediately organized. I know that when I was younger, I always simply assumed that, well, you know, Jesus' Church had Twelve Apostles, so therefore Joseph Smith reorganized the Church here with Twelve Apostles, which he does, but not immediately.
Gerrit Now, well, while I'm not probably going to answer that question right now, the whole topic of apostles has really kind of piqued our interest. I mean, with the idea of covering some of the apostles and apostates, I thought maybe first we could talk about the organization of the Quorum of the Twelve to begin with. I know we talked about this earlier, many, many, many podcasts ago, many, many free frescoes and inside jokes about various aspects, things coming from Damien ago. We talked about it. And it's probably a surprise to a lot of members of the church when they learn that the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles is not immediately organized. I know that when I was younger, I always simply assumed that, well, you know, Jesus' Church had Twelve Apostles, so therefore Joseph Smith reorganized the Church here with Twelve Apostles, which he does, but not immediately.
Gerrit Now, there is a revelation that is given that is going to talk about the calling of the Quorum of the Twelve, and that's Doctrine and Covenants, section 18. In this section, it's going to explain that the Three Witnesses are going to be the ones who have the privilege of calling these new Apostles, finding them, seeking them out. And it makes it sound like it's going to be pretty soon. The revelation is given before the church is even organized. And so it makes you think, well, you know, we're going to have Apostles, you know, pretty quick. You know, it's at the summer of 1829 that you get this. It's given to Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer. And they are told that they are going to have this ability. If you go to Doctrine and Covenants section 18, I think, you know, if we're not going to read all of it, but verse 37 says, I give unto you, Oliver Cowdery and also unto David Whitmer, you shall search out the twelve who shall have the desires of which I have spoken and by their desires and their works, you shall know them.
Gerrit Now, there is a revelation that is given that is going to talk about the calling of the Quorum of the Twelve, and that's Doctrine and Covenants, section 18. In this section, it's going to explain that the Three Witnesses are going to be the ones who have the privilege of calling these new Apostles, finding them, seeking them out. And it makes it sound like it's going to be pretty soon. The revelation is given before the church is even organized. And so it makes you think, well, you know, we're going to have Apostles, you know, pretty quick. You know, it's at the summer of 1829 that you get this. It's given to Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer. And they are told that they are going to have this ability. If you go to Doctrine and Covenants section 18, I think, you know, if we're not going to read all of it, but verse 37 says, I give unto you, Oliver Cowdery and also unto David Whitmer, you shall search out the twelve who shall have the desires of which I have spoken and by their desires and their works, you shall know them.
Gerrit And when you have found them, you shall show them, show these things unto them. So they're given this, this duty that they're supposed to be seeking out and finding out who these apostles are going to be and that when they found them, they're going to share this revelation that was received before they were ever called. It's actually a really fascinating thing. Of course, the Lord knows that he's eventually going to call twelve apostles in his church, but it's not for five, six more years that at five and a half, I guess we were going to get technical before these men are actually called. And Oliver Cowdery will say when they finally called, you know, you're the people we've been looking for all this time. Their primary calling is going to be to to preach about Jesus and to share the gospel. And so that's that that's there from the beginning of the church from before the beginning of the church.
Gerrit And when you have found them, you shall show them, show these things unto them. So they're given this, this duty that they're supposed to be seeking out and finding out who these apostles are going to be and that when they found them, they're going to share this revelation that was received before they were ever called. It's actually a really fascinating thing. Of course, the Lord knows that he's eventually going to call twelve apostles in his church, but it's not for five, six more years that at five and a half, I guess we were going to get technical before these men are actually called. And Oliver Cowdery will say when they finally called, you know, you're the people we've been looking for all this time. Their primary calling is going to be to to preach about Jesus and to share the gospel. And so that's that that's there from the beginning of the church from before the beginning of the church.
Gerrit But it's not until February of 1835 that the apostles are actually called. We can actually go to the minutes of that meeting where we hear the apostles being called and set apart. This is from the minutes and discourses of 14 and 15 February 1835. So if you didn't think you had a better reason to remember Valentine's Day, you married men out there. The other reason why to remember it is it's when the Quorum of the Twelve was first organized. So if you can't remember Valentine's Day because of your spouse, at least remember this is the day that the Quorum of the Twelve was organized, or at least when their callings are made. But this is the minutes of that meeting. A hymn was sung for the dismissal of the harp, listen to the trumpeters, they call for volunteers. President Hyrum Smith closed by prayer. So that's how the previous meeting closed.
Gerrit But it's not until February of 1835 that the apostles are actually called. We can actually go to the minutes of that meeting where we hear the apostles being called and set apart. This is from the minutes and discourses of 14 and 15 February 1835. So if you didn't think you had a better reason to remember Valentine's Day, you married men out there. The other reason why to remember it is it's when the Quorum of the Twelve was first organized. So if you can't remember Valentine's Day because of your spouse, at least remember this is the day that the Quorum of the Twelve was organized, or at least when their callings are made. But this is the minutes of that meeting. A hymn was sung for the dismissal of the harp, listen to the trumpeters, they call for volunteers. President Hyrum Smith closed by prayer. So that's how the previous meeting closed.
Gerrit Now they have a new meeting coming. They met pursuant to adjournment and President Hyrum Smith opened the meeting by prayer. Apparently Hyrum Smith is like the only one allowed to pray. I mean, he's open and he's closing. He's probably like, I said it this morning. That's what my kids say.
Gerrit Now they have a new meeting coming. They met pursuant to adjournment and President Hyrum Smith opened the meeting by prayer. Apparently Hyrum Smith is like the only one allowed to pray. I mean, he's open and he's closing. He's probably like, I said it this morning. That's what my kids say.
Richard A hymn is like your kids, like my kids, like every kid.
Richard A hymn is like your kids, like my kids, like every kid.
Gerrit Yeah, like every kid. I prayed at church, you know, I'm gonna have to check with all their leaders.
Gerrit Yeah, like every kid. I prayed at church, you know, I'm gonna have to check with all their leaders.
Richard It's Wednesday, Max. I know, it's fine, it's time to pray again.
Richard It's Wednesday, Max. I know, it's fine, it's time to pray again.
Gerrit I prayed last week over the meal. Anyway, the first business of the meeting was for the Three Witnesses of the Book of Mormon to pray each one and then proceed to choose 12 men from the church as apostles to go to all nations, kindreds, tongues and people. The Three Witnesses united in prayer, Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer and Martin Harris. So that's something else I think a lot of people don't know about the calling of the original Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. We would assume that it's Joseph Smith that chooses these men out, but Doctrine and Covenants Section 18 had given that to the witnesses. And so here in this meeting, the Three Witnesses are present and they're the ones who are going to pray in order to make this calling. It's not though, as if the Three Witnesses just decided that they have the authority to give these keys or this power to the apostles.
Gerrit I prayed last week over the meal. Anyway, the first business of the meeting was for the Three Witnesses of the Book of Mormon to pray each one and then proceed to choose 12 men from the church as apostles to go to all nations, kindreds, tongues and people. The Three Witnesses united in prayer, Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer and Martin Harris. So that's something else I think a lot of people don't know about the calling of the original Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. We would assume that it's Joseph Smith that chooses these men out, but Doctrine and Covenants Section 18 had given that to the witnesses. And so here in this meeting, the Three Witnesses are present and they're the ones who are going to pray in order to make this calling. It's not though, as if the Three Witnesses just decided that they have the authority to give these keys or this power to the apostles.
Gerrit In fact, the minutes of the meeting also record. These Three Witnesses were then blessed by the laying on of the hands of the presidency. So here's what's interesting. The Three Witnesses have been told they're going to be the ones who select the apostles. And so before they do it, they are given authority by the church presidency, which includes Joseph Smith and Frederick E. Williams. And then they have the authority to do it. So it's this really odd thing, right? Well, who's going to call the Quorum of the Twelve? God had already given that responsibility to the Three Witnesses of the Book of Mormon. It's a kind of an interesting thing to think about it, that the witnesses of the Book of Mormon are considered so central to the reestablishment of the church that God gives them a special role in calling the Quorum of the Twelve.
Gerrit In fact, the minutes of the meeting also record. These Three Witnesses were then blessed by the laying on of the hands of the presidency. So here's what's interesting. The Three Witnesses have been told they're going to be the ones who select the apostles. And so before they do it, they are given authority by the church presidency, which includes Joseph Smith and Frederick E. Williams. And then they have the authority to do it. So it's this really odd thing, right? Well, who's going to call the Quorum of the Twelve? God had already given that responsibility to the Three Witnesses of the Book of Mormon. It's a kind of an interesting thing to think about it, that the witnesses of the Book of Mormon are considered so central to the reestablishment of the church that God gives them a special role in calling the Quorum of the Twelve.
Richard Is there any hard feeling perhaps on the part of these Three Witnesses that they're not part of the Quorum of the Twelve, or do they really not necessarily understands fully what the Quorum of the Twelve would be or how that would work?
Richard Is there any hard feeling perhaps on the part of these Three Witnesses that they're not part of the Quorum of the Twelve, or do they really not necessarily understands fully what the Quorum of the Twelve would be or how that would work?
Gerrit So I think yes and no and yes. I think the reality is no one knows how important the Quorum of the Twelve is going to become. Now look, they have a revelation before the church has even organized saying how important it is to find them. So it's certainly understood that it's an important position. And look, what do they have in front of them from the Bible? That the Quorum of the Twelve is pretty important, right? And what do they have from the Book of Mormon? That the 12 disciples that Jesus calls are pretty important. So I do think that there's an understanding that this is important. But since they're the ones selecting these apostles, that kind of places them in a position above them, doesn't it? For Oliver Cowdery, it would be the least, I don't know, the least possible to be offended by this, because he's actually a member of the Presidency of the High Priesthood that's giving them the authority, right?
Gerrit So I think yes and no and yes. I think the reality is no one knows how important the Quorum of the Twelve is going to become. Now look, they have a revelation before the church has even organized saying how important it is to find them. So it's certainly understood that it's an important position. And look, what do they have in front of them from the Bible? That the Quorum of the Twelve is pretty important, right? And what do they have from the Book of Mormon? That the 12 disciples that Jesus calls are pretty important. So I do think that there's an understanding that this is important. But since they're the ones selecting these apostles, that kind of places them in a position above them, doesn't it? For Oliver Cowdery, it would be the least, I don't know, the least possible to be offended by this, because he's actually a member of the Presidency of the High Priesthood that's giving them the authority, right?
Gerrit The Presidency of the High Priesthood is Frederick G. Williams, Sidney Rigdon, Joseph Smith Sr. Hyrum Smith and Oliver Cowdery, well, and Joseph Smith, obviously. And so they're the ones that are going to be giving this authority to call the Apostles to the Three Witnesses. So I think for Oliver Cowdery, you know, he's already the one granting that authority as the second Elder of the Church. But it often makes me wonder about the fact that when these men apostatize, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, David Wirt, they all apostatize when Joseph is leading the Church. Now, David Whitmer doesn't ever come back and in fact is going to keep forming his own churches, uniting with other apostate groups and never denying his testimony in the Book of Mormon, but never making intimations about coming back to the Church after he leaves.
Gerrit The Presidency of the High Priesthood is Frederick G. Williams, Sidney Rigdon, Joseph Smith Sr. Hyrum Smith and Oliver Cowdery, well, and Joseph Smith, obviously. And so they're the ones that are going to be giving this authority to call the Apostles to the Three Witnesses. So I think for Oliver Cowdery, you know, he's already the one granting that authority as the second Elder of the Church. But it often makes me wonder about the fact that when these men apostatize, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, David Wirt, they all apostatize when Joseph is leading the Church. Now, David Whitmer doesn't ever come back and in fact is going to keep forming his own churches, uniting with other apostate groups and never denying his testimony in the Book of Mormon, but never making intimations about coming back to the Church after he leaves.
Gerrit But both Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris do come back to the Church after leaving. And when do they come back to the Church? Both of them come back after Joseph is gone and it is the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles that is running the Church. And you have to think that that factors somewhere in there, right? That it's hard for Oliver Cowdery to claim that Brigham Young is illegitimately an Apostle when Oliver Cowdery is the one who made Brigham Young an Apostle.
Gerrit But both Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris do come back to the Church after leaving. And when do they come back to the Church? Both of them come back after Joseph is gone and it is the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles that is running the Church. And you have to think that that factors somewhere in there, right? That it's hard for Oliver Cowdery to claim that Brigham Young is illegitimately an Apostle when Oliver Cowdery is the one who made Brigham Young an Apostle.
Richard Right?
Gerrit Right. Some more for Martin Harris. I mean, while you might disagree with Brigham Young, the fact that he has authority and power actually is a witness to the fact that you had authority and power. Otherwise, they wouldn't be Apostles. Now, we don't get commentary on that, but that's a very interesting thing to think about. That Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris are returning to a church where the Apostles are paramount and they, by revelation, are the ones who called those Apostles. At any rate, they're called, then they, according to a former commandment, the minutes talk about the former commandment, what they're talking about is Dr. Coven, Section 18. They proceeded to make a choice of the Twelve. The names are as follows. Lyman Johnson, Brigham Young, Heber C.
Richard Right?
Gerrit Right. Some more for Martin Harris. I mean, while you might disagree with Brigham Young, the fact that he has authority and power actually is a witness to the fact that you had authority and power. Otherwise, they wouldn't be Apostles. Now, we don't get commentary on that, but that's a very interesting thing to think about. That Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris are returning to a church where the Apostles are paramount and they, by revelation, are the ones who called those Apostles. At any rate, they're called, then they, according to a former commandment, the minutes talk about the former commandment, what they're talking about is Dr. Coven, Section 18. They proceeded to make a choice of the Twelve. The names are as follows. Lyman Johnson, Brigham Young, Heber C.
Gerrit Kimball, Orson Hyde, David W. Patton, Luke Johnson, William McClellan, John F. Boynton, Orson Pratt, William Smith, Thomas B. Marsh and Parley P. Pratt. Those are the twelve original members of the original Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Now, who do you think was given this power first? Which of these apostles was by our terminology set apart first or given this blessing first? By our terminology, we would say ordained, but they of course aren't using all the same terminology we are.
Gerrit Kimball, Orson Hyde, David W. Patton, Luke Johnson, William McClellan, John F. Boynton, Orson Pratt, William Smith, Thomas B. Marsh and Parley P. Pratt. Those are the twelve original members of the original Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Now, who do you think was given this power first? Which of these apostles was by our terminology set apart first or given this blessing first? By our terminology, we would say ordained, but they of course aren't using all the same terminology we are.
Richard I don't know.
Richard I don't know.
Gerrit No guesses? I mean, come on, Richard.
Gerrit No guesses? I mean, come on, Richard.
Richard Thomas Marsh.
Richard Thomas Marsh.
Gerrit Great guess. Wrong. Yes. In fact, I don't know if anyone could guess it, except for maybe Alec with his guessing.
Gerrit Great guess. Wrong. Yes. In fact, I don't know if anyone could guess it, except for maybe Alec with his guessing.
Richard It was great of Alec to guess, by the way, a month after we told him the answer.
Richard It was great of Alec to guess, by the way, a month after we told him the answer.
Gerrit Well, I feel like Alec likes to guess at what we're about to say, the same way that we like to pick sporting events long after they were already decided.
Gerrit Well, I feel like Alec likes to guess at what we're about to say, the same way that we like to pick sporting events long after they were already decided.
Richard Yeah, he's a man after our own heart.
Richard Yeah, he's a man after our own heart.
Gerrit Yeah, I feel like if he was setting the line on who got ordained first among the Quorum of the Twelve, he would tell us about four weeks from now, but claim that he had actually written it in an email that he never sent.
Gerrit Yeah, I feel like if he was setting the line on who got ordained first among the Quorum of the Twelve, he would tell us about four weeks from now, but claim that he had actually written it in an email that he never sent.
Richard That's right.
Richard That's right.
Gerrit Well, the first would be pretty hard to know, but it's actually Lyman Johnson, who is the first that is given this blessing. Let me continue with the minutes. Lyman Johnson, Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball came forward, and the Three Witnesses laid their hands upon each one's head and prayed separately. The blessing of Lyman Johnson was, in the name of Jesus Christ, that he should bear the tidings of salvation to nations, tongues and people, until the utmost corners of the earth shall hear the tidings, and that he shall be a witness of the things of God to nations and tongues, and that holy angels shall administer him occasionally, and that no power of the enemy shall prevent him from going forth and doing the work of the Lord, and that he should live until the gathering was accomplished according to the holy prophets, and that he should be like unto Enoch. And your faith shall be like unto his, and he shall be called great among all the living, and Satan shall tremble before thee, and that he shall see the Savior come and stand on the earth with power and great glory.
Gerrit Well, the first would be pretty hard to know, but it's actually Lyman Johnson, who is the first that is given this blessing. Let me continue with the minutes. Lyman Johnson, Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball came forward, and the Three Witnesses laid their hands upon each one's head and prayed separately. The blessing of Lyman Johnson was, in the name of Jesus Christ, that he should bear the tidings of salvation to nations, tongues and people, until the utmost corners of the earth shall hear the tidings, and that he shall be a witness of the things of God to nations and tongues, and that holy angels shall administer him occasionally, and that no power of the enemy shall prevent him from going forth and doing the work of the Lord, and that he should live until the gathering was accomplished according to the holy prophets, and that he should be like unto Enoch. And your faith shall be like unto his, and he shall be called great among all the living, and Satan shall tremble before thee, and that he shall see the Savior come and stand on the earth with power and great glory.
Gerrit So that was that first blessing given at the ordination of Lyman Johnson. Now, by our current understanding, someone right now is probably thinking, A, why did I listen to the first 15 minutes of this podcast?
Gerrit So that was that first blessing given at the ordination of Lyman Johnson. Now, by our current understanding, someone right now is probably thinking, A, why did I listen to the first 15 minutes of this podcast?
Richard The first 22 minutes of the podcast, and we're going to start putting in here for Rex's elders quorum president when he should start listening, when the silliness ends.
Richard The first 22 minutes of the podcast, and we're going to start putting in here for Rex's elders quorum president when he should start listening, when the silliness ends.
Gerrit Well, maybe he likes the silliness, but he's just worried other people won't like the silliness.
Gerrit Well, maybe he likes the silliness, but he's just worried other people won't like the silliness.
Richard Well, either way, this will be for Rex's elders quorum president.
Richard Well, either way, this will be for Rex's elders quorum president.
Gerrit I'm pretty sure that most of the people listening don't like listening to it.
Gerrit I'm pretty sure that most of the people listening don't like listening to it.
Richard I think you're right, actually. It's hate listening.
Richard I think you're right, actually. It's hate listening.
Gerrit Yeah, people are listening almost angrily to it. So you might be wondering, though, aside from why am I still listening, well, why then is Lyman Johnson not the president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles? I mean, he was ordained first, right? Why is it that he's not? Well, it's a good question. But I'm going to leave you there because we're going to first read Brigham Young's blessing. He was the second one ordained. The blessing of Brigham Young was as follows, that he should be strong in body, that he may go forth and gather the elect preparatory to the great day of the coming of the Lord, that he might be strong and mighty, declaring the tidings to the nations, that know not God, that he may add ten talents, that he may come designed with many sheaves. He shall go forth from land to land and from sea to sea, and shall behold heavenly messengers going forth, and his life shall be prolonged.
Gerrit Yeah, people are listening almost angrily to it. So you might be wondering, though, aside from why am I still listening, well, why then is Lyman Johnson not the president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles? I mean, he was ordained first, right? Why is it that he's not? Well, it's a good question. But I'm going to leave you there because we're going to first read Brigham Young's blessing. He was the second one ordained. The blessing of Brigham Young was as follows, that he should be strong in body, that he may go forth and gather the elect preparatory to the great day of the coming of the Lord, that he might be strong and mighty, declaring the tidings to the nations, that know not God, that he may add ten talents, that he may come designed with many sheaves. He shall go forth from land to land and from sea to sea, and shall behold heavenly messengers going forth, and his life shall be prolonged.
Gerrit And the holy priesthood is confirmed upon thee, that he may do wonders in the name of Jesus, that he may cast out devils, heal the sick, raise the dead, open the eyes of the blind, go forth from land to land, from sea to sea, and that he the nations shall even call him God himself, if he did not rebuke them. So that's his blessing. The next is Heber C. Kimball's and so on. In fact though, those are the only ones that are done on that first day. So when you say, when was the Quorum of the Twelve organized? Well, it's a little... You could have an argument, right? The First Apostles are called to it on Valentine's Day on the 14th of February 1835, but they don't complete doing this until the 15th, until the next day. Then they're going to go through and keep going. So you could always argue that it wasn't really organized until all of them were called.
Gerrit And the holy priesthood is confirmed upon thee, that he may do wonders in the name of Jesus, that he may cast out devils, heal the sick, raise the dead, open the eyes of the blind, go forth from land to land, from sea to sea, and that he the nations shall even call him God himself, if he did not rebuke them. So that's his blessing. The next is Heber C. Kimball's and so on. In fact though, those are the only ones that are done on that first day. So when you say, when was the Quorum of the Twelve organized? Well, it's a little... You could have an argument, right? The First Apostles are called to it on Valentine's Day on the 14th of February 1835, but they don't complete doing this until the 15th, until the next day. Then they're going to go through and keep going. So you could always argue that it wasn't really organized until all of them were called.
Gerrit At any rate, you again might wonder and maybe the one thing people can get out of this is, well, why is it that Lyman Johnson isn't the president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles if he was ordained first? It seems like that's how we do things today. So why isn't that the way it was then? Well, we got to go to another document for that. That's something called the Record of the Twelve. That document helps give the assignments of what the Quorum of the Twelve is supposed to be doing, what their callings are, and then also it's going to talk about the way that they are going to set themselves in council. It's going to list off all the people that are in the meeting. We won't read them all off. Within the minutes we'll say, in the midst of this grand assemblage, President Joseph Smith Jr.
Gerrit At any rate, you again might wonder and maybe the one thing people can get out of this is, well, why is it that Lyman Johnson isn't the president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles if he was ordained first? It seems like that's how we do things today. So why isn't that the way it was then? Well, we got to go to another document for that. That's something called the Record of the Twelve. That document helps give the assignments of what the Quorum of the Twelve is supposed to be doing, what their callings are, and then also it's going to talk about the way that they are going to set themselves in council. It's going to list off all the people that are in the meeting. We won't read them all off. Within the minutes we'll say, in the midst of this grand assemblage, President Joseph Smith Jr.
Gerrit arose and made many remarks, among which were the following. It will be the duty of the Twelve when in council to take their seats together according to their ages, the oldest to be seated as the head and preside in the first council, the next oldest in the second, and so on until the youngest has presided. So the Quorum of the Twelve is initially organized on the basis of how old people are. Well, so then you go down to what their ages are. And this is why Thomas Marsh is going to be the first president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, because he's obviously the oldest, except that he's not. So I just finished saying the way they're organized is by the basis of age, but the problem is David W. Patton doesn't know how old he is.
Gerrit arose and made many remarks, among which were the following. It will be the duty of the Twelve when in council to take their seats together according to their ages, the oldest to be seated as the head and preside in the first council, the next oldest in the second, and so on until the youngest has presided. So the Quorum of the Twelve is initially organized on the basis of how old people are. Well, so then you go down to what their ages are. And this is why Thomas Marsh is going to be the first president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, because he's obviously the oldest, except that he's not. So I just finished saying the way they're organized is by the basis of age, but the problem is David W. Patton doesn't know how old he is.
Gerrit Well, he gives them an age. He's just wrong. And so had the ages been correctly known, then David W. Patton would have been the president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, because he was actually the oldest, even though he was off on a year about when he was actually born. Kind of goes to the point we've talked about before when we were talking about the First Vision. It is not a completely uncommon thing for someone to not know exactly how old they are. All of the markers that we have for age today, driver's license, filling out school applications, literally every form you've ever filled out in your life, flying on airplanes, none of those things exist. And so, it was not... I mean, most people did know how old they were, but it's not an uncommon thing to go to even a cemetery and see question marks on people's birth year or to have it unstated, you know, because not everyone knows how old they are.
Gerrit Well, he gives them an age. He's just wrong. And so had the ages been correctly known, then David W. Patton would have been the president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, because he was actually the oldest, even though he was off on a year about when he was actually born. Kind of goes to the point we've talked about before when we were talking about the First Vision. It is not a completely uncommon thing for someone to not know exactly how old they are. All of the markers that we have for age today, driver's license, filling out school applications, literally every form you've ever filled out in your life, flying on airplanes, none of those things exist. And so, it was not... I mean, most people did know how old they were, but it's not an uncommon thing to go to even a cemetery and see question marks on people's birth year or to have it unstated, you know, because not everyone knows how old they are.
Gerrit In David W. Patton's case, he was off by a year on when he was born, which of course we can now go back and discern that because we can go back and look at records. He didn't know. And so Thomas Marsh will serve as the first president of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles, and he'll serve in that position for three years until he himself will apostatize, which is going to be part of our Apostles and Apostates, but we're not going to cover all that right now today. We're just laying the groundwork. David W. Patton then will technically be the president of the Quorum of the Twelve, or would have been. After Marsh leaves, Marsh apostatizes, but then right after that, David W. Patton is killed in the Battle of Crooked River. Battle of Crooked River, where the Caldwell County militia in Missouri believes that there is a mob that has been attacking Latter-day Saints settlements in Caldwell County.
Gerrit In David W. Patton's case, he was off by a year on when he was born, which of course we can now go back and discern that because we can go back and look at records. He didn't know. And so Thomas Marsh will serve as the first president of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles, and he'll serve in that position for three years until he himself will apostatize, which is going to be part of our Apostles and Apostates, but we're not going to cover all that right now today. We're just laying the groundwork. David W. Patton then will technically be the president of the Quorum of the Twelve, or would have been. After Marsh leaves, Marsh apostatizes, but then right after that, David W. Patton is killed in the Battle of Crooked River. Battle of Crooked River, where the Caldwell County militia in Missouri believes that there is a mob that has been attacking Latter-day Saints settlements in Caldwell County.
Gerrit The Caldwell County militia goes out after them. David W. Patton is the head of that Caldwell County militia. It's not actually a mob. It's actually the actual Missouri militia that is just performing these acts of violence and kidnapping. And in that battle, the resulting battle, David W. Patton is killed. And then you have Brigham Young. The original calling of the Quorum of the Twelve was different than the way we view it today. Originally, the Quorum of the Twelve were called to be a traveling High Council. Now, High Council doesn't sound like a very big deal to you, so you're thinking, oh, wow, High Council, what a... I mean, today, High Councilmen are... they are easily, readily found. I mean, how many stakes are there in the Church? Every one of those stakes has 12 High Councilors, right?
Gerrit The Caldwell County militia goes out after them. David W. Patton is the head of that Caldwell County militia. It's not actually a mob. It's actually the actual Missouri militia that is just performing these acts of violence and kidnapping. And in that battle, the resulting battle, David W. Patton is killed. And then you have Brigham Young. The original calling of the Quorum of the Twelve was different than the way we view it today. Originally, the Quorum of the Twelve were called to be a traveling High Council. Now, High Council doesn't sound like a very big deal to you, so you're thinking, oh, wow, High Council, what a... I mean, today, High Councilmen are... they are easily, readily found. I mean, how many stakes are there in the Church? Every one of those stakes has 12 High Councilors, right?
Gerrit And people aren't High Councilmen for life, so you can find former High Councilmen everywhere. So, you know, today we kind of see it as, you know, it's an important calling, but you would never, you know, do a double take because someone said to you, you know what, that man over there, he was in a High Council 15 years ago. Oh my goodness, let's see if we can get his autograph. I mean, you would, you know, it's fine. I'm not denigrating the office in any way, but today...
Gerrit And people aren't High Councilmen for life, so you can find former High Councilmen everywhere. So, you know, today we kind of see it as, you know, it's an important calling, but you would never, you know, do a double take because someone said to you, you know what, that man over there, he was in a High Council 15 years ago. Oh my goodness, let's see if we can get his autograph. I mean, you would, you know, it's fine. I'm not denigrating the office in any way, but today...
Richard So there's currently just under 42,000 High Councilors. There's, you know, about 3,500 stakes. So we had our crack research staff get on that.
Richard So there's currently just under 42,000 High Councilors. There's, you know, about 3,500 stakes. So we had our crack research staff get on that.
Gerrit Right.
Gerrit Right.
Richard Yeah.
Richard Yeah.
Gerrit There are more people in High Councils today than there were members of the Church when the Quorum of the Twelve is called. Let's put it that way. If everyone in the Church when Brigham Young was called to the Quorum of the Twelve was in the High Council, then it would be, that would be reflective of it. But back then, there was only one Council. There was a standing High Council that was there in Kirtland at the seat of government of the Church where Joseph was. And originally the Quorum of the Twelve are given power and authority outside of that place. So their job was to go where there wasn't a stake, and they presided for the Church in those areas. So in a very odd way of thinking about it, originally the Quorum of the Twelve didn't really have authority in Kirtland.
Gerrit There are more people in High Councils today than there were members of the Church when the Quorum of the Twelve is called. Let's put it that way. If everyone in the Church when Brigham Young was called to the Quorum of the Twelve was in the High Council, then it would be, that would be reflective of it. But back then, there was only one Council. There was a standing High Council that was there in Kirtland at the seat of government of the Church where Joseph was. And originally the Quorum of the Twelve are given power and authority outside of that place. So their job was to go where there wasn't a stake, and they presided for the Church in those areas. So in a very odd way of thinking about it, originally the Quorum of the Twelve didn't really have authority in Kirtland.
Gerrit Not that they weren't respected in Kirtland, not that they weren't considered great guys in Kirtland, but as far as their authority for the Church, their authority for the Church was outside of where the Church's presidency was. We get a little bit of that from these minutes as well. The Twelve Apostles have no right to go into Zion or any of its stakes where there is a regular high council established to regulate any matters pertaining thereunto. Now in today's Church, you don't get a whole lot of documents that say the Quorum of the Twelve has no right. That's not something you see a whole lot, right? But when they're initially called, they are given very specific duties. And one of those specific duties is or understandings is that their authority was to be outside of where the Church was established with a stake.
Gerrit Not that they weren't respected in Kirtland, not that they weren't considered great guys in Kirtland, but as far as their authority for the Church, their authority for the Church was outside of where the Church's presidency was. We get a little bit of that from these minutes as well. The Twelve Apostles have no right to go into Zion or any of its stakes where there is a regular high council established to regulate any matters pertaining thereunto. Now in today's Church, you don't get a whole lot of documents that say the Quorum of the Twelve has no right. That's not something you see a whole lot, right? But when they're initially called, they are given very specific duties. And one of those specific duties is or understandings is that their authority was to be outside of where the Church was established with a stake.
Gerrit The minutes even say it is their duty to go abroad and to regulate and set in order all matters relative to the different branches of the Church of the Latter-day Saints. When the Twelve are all together or a Quorum of them in any Church, they have authority to act independently of the Church and form decisions. And those decisions will be valid. But where there is not a Quorum of them together, they must transact business by the common consent of the Church. No standing High Council has authority to go into the Churches abroad and regulate the matters thereof, for this belongs to the Twelve. So, while the Quorum of the Twelve doesn't have the authority to go into the established stake of the Church, now again, there's only one of them. So, there's not a whole lot of areas they don't have that authority. The High Council in Kirtland also didn't have the ability to go regulate the branches of the Church, say, in Michigan.
Gerrit The minutes even say it is their duty to go abroad and to regulate and set in order all matters relative to the different branches of the Church of the Latter-day Saints. When the Twelve are all together or a Quorum of them in any Church, they have authority to act independently of the Church and form decisions. And those decisions will be valid. But where there is not a Quorum of them together, they must transact business by the common consent of the Church. No standing High Council has authority to go into the Churches abroad and regulate the matters thereof, for this belongs to the Twelve. So, while the Quorum of the Twelve doesn't have the authority to go into the established stake of the Church, now again, there's only one of them. So, there's not a whole lot of areas they don't have that authority. The High Council in Kirtland also didn't have the ability to go regulate the branches of the Church, say, in Michigan.
Gerrit So, there was a High Council where the Church has its headquarters there in Kirtland, and then there was the Traveling High Council or the Quorum of the Twelve who would then exercise that authority outside of where the Church's headquarters were. Now remember, there is no form of mass communication here. If there's a branch of the Church in, you know, in Vermont, well, they are at the mercy of letter writing or people coming to the area to know what's going on in the Church. And so it even became even more incumbent upon the Quorum of the Twelve to travel, not just to go preach the Word of God, which they do, but also to travel through the various branches of the Church, wherever the Church is established, because it was their duty to organize the Church in those areas.
Gerrit So, there was a High Council where the Church has its headquarters there in Kirtland, and then there was the Traveling High Council or the Quorum of the Twelve who would then exercise that authority outside of where the Church's headquarters were. Now remember, there is no form of mass communication here. If there's a branch of the Church in, you know, in Vermont, well, they are at the mercy of letter writing or people coming to the area to know what's going on in the Church. And so it even became even more incumbent upon the Quorum of the Twelve to travel, not just to go preach the Word of God, which they do, but also to travel through the various branches of the Church, wherever the Church is established, because it was their duty to organize the Church in those areas.
Gerrit It's interesting to note in the minutes of this meeting also go on to say, the Twelve and the Seventy have particularly to depend upon their ministry for their support and that of their families. And they have the right by virtue of their offices to call upon the Churches to assist them. So they're going to be traveling so much that they're going to have a hard time holding their own jobs, apparently, is what is going on in the minutes of this meeting. And that they're going to likely have to require the local Church areas that they're in to provide them food and whatnot. So the calling of the Quorum of the Twelve is one of nearly constant travel, preaching and regulation. I know we always try to put things into our own current terms, but there really aren't current terms that would fit it very easily, right?
Gerrit It's interesting to note in the minutes of this meeting also go on to say, the Twelve and the Seventy have particularly to depend upon their ministry for their support and that of their families. And they have the right by virtue of their offices to call upon the Churches to assist them. So they're going to be traveling so much that they're going to have a hard time holding their own jobs, apparently, is what is going on in the minutes of this meeting. And that they're going to likely have to require the local Church areas that they're in to provide them food and whatnot. So the calling of the Quorum of the Twelve is one of nearly constant travel, preaching and regulation. I know we always try to put things into our own current terms, but there really aren't current terms that would fit it very easily, right?
Gerrit They certainly aren't just like area authorities, right? It's not that they don't have the authority to speak for the church. In fact, they do, but they are limited in those authorities to being outside of where the stakes of the church is organized. Now, if you're thinking, well, wait a minute, I feel like the apostles have authority all over the church today. Yes, what's going to go on is that Joseph is going to continually give more and more and more authority to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. One of the places where this is really seen, where the Quorum of the Twelve really stand up, and look, they stand up already on their missions. They are converting thousands of people in places like England or in the eastern states, like my great-great-great grandfather who goes on his mission with Wilford Woodruff to the Fox Islands.
Gerrit They certainly aren't just like area authorities, right? It's not that they don't have the authority to speak for the church. In fact, they do, but they are limited in those authorities to being outside of where the stakes of the church is organized. Now, if you're thinking, well, wait a minute, I feel like the apostles have authority all over the church today. Yes, what's going to go on is that Joseph is going to continually give more and more and more authority to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. One of the places where this is really seen, where the Quorum of the Twelve really stand up, and look, they stand up already on their missions. They are converting thousands of people in places like England or in the eastern states, like my great-great-great grandfather who goes on his mission with Wilford Woodruff to the Fox Islands.
Gerrit These men are going to be amazing missionaries, by and large, and devoted to spreading the gospel. But there's a real crisis point in the church where they really do stand up, and that is after the extermination order in Missouri, Joseph's arrested. The presidency of the church is arrested. They're all incarcerated, and the Latter-day Saints are driven violently from Missouri into Illinois. Well, the headquarters of the church was far west at that time. That was the organized location of the church. Joseph is in prison in Richmond and then in Liberty Jail. And so this unique setting up of the Quorum of the Twelve, where they had authority outside of the established headquarters of the church, was uniquely positioned to give the Quorum of the Twelve authority over this Exodus and over the refugee encampments in Quincy.
Gerrit These men are going to be amazing missionaries, by and large, and devoted to spreading the gospel. But there's a real crisis point in the church where they really do stand up, and that is after the extermination order in Missouri, Joseph's arrested. The presidency of the church is arrested. They're all incarcerated, and the Latter-day Saints are driven violently from Missouri into Illinois. Well, the headquarters of the church was far west at that time. That was the organized location of the church. Joseph is in prison in Richmond and then in Liberty Jail. And so this unique setting up of the Quorum of the Twelve, where they had authority outside of the established headquarters of the church, was uniquely positioned to give the Quorum of the Twelve authority over this Exodus and over the refugee encampments in Quincy.
Gerrit The Quorum of the Twelve could take charge. They could excommunicate people that had been speaking against Joseph and led to part of this debacle, which they did. They could organize various church branches, call people to offices, which they did. The Quorum of the Twelve, in this kind of mini interregnum period, where Joseph is certainly alive but unable to lead the church, the Quorum of the Twelve is able to step in and lead in his absence. Again, what would have been different if Sidney Rigdon hadn't been imprisoned with Joseph? Maybe, but Frigid G. Williams has actually cut off from the church during this time period. And so you also have this kind of disorganization of the First Presidency as well. So you're going to have the Quorum of the Twelve grow in power and authority. And when we come back to this topic again, we're going to continue to trace that growth of power and authority until we get to Joseph's bestowal of the keys of the kingdom upon the Quorum of the Twelve, just prior to his being murdered by a mob in Carthage.
Gerrit The Quorum of the Twelve could take charge. They could excommunicate people that had been speaking against Joseph and led to part of this debacle, which they did. They could organize various church branches, call people to offices, which they did. The Quorum of the Twelve, in this kind of mini interregnum period, where Joseph is certainly alive but unable to lead the church, the Quorum of the Twelve is able to step in and lead in his absence. Again, what would have been different if Sidney Rigdon hadn't been imprisoned with Joseph? Maybe, but Frigid G. Williams has actually cut off from the church during this time period. And so you also have this kind of disorganization of the First Presidency as well. So you're going to have the Quorum of the Twelve grow in power and authority. And when we come back to this topic again, we're going to continue to trace that growth of power and authority until we get to Joseph's bestowal of the keys of the kingdom upon the Quorum of the Twelve, just prior to his being murdered by a mob in Carthage.
Gerrit The Lord picked these men, and I have no doubt that when they were chosen, they were all worthy. They were all capable of it, that they all had the ability to bring glory to God. The unfortunate thing is, over the course of time, there were those who lost the faith. Whether it be through the violence in Missouri or the failure of the Kirtland Safety Society, some of the members of the original Quorum of the Twelve will leave the Quorum and leave the Church. Others will be dropped from the Quorum for a time, but then be brought back. And so we want to talk about this, the trajectory, the travails of the Quorum of the Twelve, what happens to the original Quorum of the Twelve, and which of them maintain being Apostles and which of them eventually become Apostates.
Gerrit The Lord picked these men, and I have no doubt that when they were chosen, they were all worthy. They were all capable of it, that they all had the ability to bring glory to God. The unfortunate thing is, over the course of time, there were those who lost the faith. Whether it be through the violence in Missouri or the failure of the Kirtland Safety Society, some of the members of the original Quorum of the Twelve will leave the Quorum and leave the Church. Others will be dropped from the Quorum for a time, but then be brought back. And so we want to talk about this, the trajectory, the travails of the Quorum of the Twelve, what happens to the original Quorum of the Twelve, and which of them maintain being Apostles and which of them eventually become Apostates.
Gerrit Some will leave the Church altogether and never have anything to do with it. Some will leave and then come back. Some will leave and then not come back to our Church, but try to form their own churches continually over and over again. And I think that our listeners will find fascinating, or at the very least, they'll get a good nap as we discuss the various ways that these Apostles either grow in their faith and their authority or become challenged by some of the difficulties of the day and apostatize. Thank you so much for listening.
Gerrit Some will leave the Church altogether and never have anything to do with it. Some will leave and then come back. Some will leave and then not come back to our Church, but try to form their own churches continually over and over again. And I think that our listeners will find fascinating, or at the very least, they'll get a good nap as we discuss the various ways that these Apostles either grow in their faith and their authority or become challenged by some of the difficulties of the day and apostatize. Thank you so much for listening.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.
Quote board
Make a share card from any lineIt would be different if you are already signed up for premium, then we could trust you. Plus we'd have your credit card information.
We should have named one of the podcasts Trudging Through the Content. We really missed that opportunity there.
So it'd be like, hey, Alec, we need your money now.
So if you can't remember Valentine's Day because of your spouse, at least remember this is the day that the Quorum of the Twelve was organized, or at least when their callings are made.
It's a kind of an interesting thing to think about it, that the witnesses of the Book of Mormon are considered so central to the reestablishment of the church that God gives them a special role in calling the Quorum of the Twelve.
That it's hard for Oliver Cowdery to claim that Brigham Young is illegitimately an Apostle when Oliver Cowdery is the one who made Brigham Young an Apostle.
Yeah, people are listening almost angrily to it.
There are more people in High Councils today than there were members of the Church when the Quorum of the Twelve is called.
The Lord picked these men, and I have no doubt that when they were chosen, they were all worthy.
Source shelf
13 sources cited on air · verses link to the scriptures, Joseph Smith’s documents to the Joseph Smith Paperssermon
Gordon B. Hinckley, "Gambling," April 2005 general conference
Rex refers the hosts to it. The transcript renders it "President Inglis'."
book
Gerald N. Lund, The Work and the Glory (the Steed family)
Damian jokes he can still rely on the Steeds now that his faith-promoting stories are debunked; Gerrit notes it's fiction.
other
The CES Letter
Damian's joke title for it: "Now That's What I Call Anti-Mormonism, Volume 12."
revelation
D&C 18:37
I give unto you, Oliver Cowdery and also unto David Whitmer, you shall search out the twelve who shall have the desires of which I have spoken and by their desires and their works, you shall know them.
Given before the church was organized, it tells Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer to search out the Twelve.
record
Minutes and discourses, 14-15 February 1835 (Kirtland)
the first business of the meeting was for the Three Witnesses of the Book of Mormon to pray each one and then proceed to choose 12 men from the church as apostles to go to all nations, kindreds, tongues and people.
The Three Witnesses pray and then choose the Twelve, after the church presidency blesses them with authority to do it.
record
Minutes, 14 February 1835: the Twelve named
They proceeded to make a choice of the Twelve.
The original twelve chosen by the witnesses.
record
Minutes, 14 February 1835: blessing of Lyman Johnson
Lyman Johnson, Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball came forward, and the Three Witnesses laid their hands upon each one's head and prayed separately.
Lyman Johnson was the first of the Twelve to receive his apostolic blessing.
record
Minutes, 14 February 1835: blessing of Brigham Young
that he should be strong in body, that he may go forth and gather the elect preparatory to the great day of the coming of the Lord
Brigham was second; his blessing promises he'll go from land to land and sea to sea.
record
Record of the Twelve, Joseph Smith's instructions on seating by age
It will be the duty of the Twelve when in council to take their seats together according to their ages, the oldest to be seated as the head and preside in the first council
The quorum was originally ranked by age, which made Thomas B. Marsh president because David W. Patten got his own birth year wrong.
record
Minutes on the duties of the Twelve as a traveling high council (1835)
The Twelve Apostles have no right to go into Zion or any of its stakes where there is a regular high council established to regulate any matters pertaining thereunto.
At first the Twelve had authority only outside organized stakes.
record
Minutes on the duties of the Twelve, continued
No standing High Council has authority to go into the Churches abroad and regulate the matters thereof, for this belongs to the Twelve.
They regulate branches abroad, and a quorum of them can act independently.
record
Minutes on the Twelve and Seventy's support
the Twelve and the Seventy have particularly to depend upon their ministry for their support and that of their families.
Constant travel meant they'd have to rely on the branches for support.
other
Crack research staff: count of stakes and high councilors
So there's currently just under 42,000 High Councilors.
Richard reports about 3,500 stakes and just under 42,000 high councilors today.
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2different years mentioned
0dollar amounts said
From 1829 to 1835
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Putting numbers to words
All 8,396 words of the automatic transcript, counted against a word list for each theme. It shows how much a theme comes up, not what was said about it. See the lists
What this episode talks about more than usual
- Prophets and priesthood102 mentions, 6.9 times the show’s usual rate
- Faith and prayer22 mentions, 2.2 times the show’s usual rate
- Mobs, jail and violence15 mentions, 2.1 times the show’s usual rate
Names said most
Joseph counts any Joseph.
Joseph 17Oliver Cowdery 12Brigham Young 9Jesus Christ 6Martin Harris 5Hyrum Smith 4
Signature words
Said often here and in few other episodes.
Marsh 6tight 5regulate 4headquarters 4
More from this episode
Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.
Claim check
What critics say, and what the episode foundJoseph Smith organized Twelve Apostles as soon as the church was restored, and he chose them himself.
The apostles have always led the whole church the way they do today.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.
Take it to class
Ready to copy into a lesson or a textD&C 18 gave the Three Witnesses the job of finding the Twelve years before the quorum was called. The Lord was preparing it before the church was organized.
Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris came back to a church led by the Twelve they had helped choose.
The Quorum of the Twelve's role grew over time, from a traveling high council outside the stakes to leading the Saints out of Missouri while Joseph was in Liberty Jail.
Gerrit believes all the original Twelve were worthy when they were chosen. Some later lost their faith, which is why the series is called Apostles and Apostates.
Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.
Banter bin
The running jokes, for people who skip aheadThe applause signGerrit's son Kai assumed the live applause was piped in; Richard admits he cued it with an exit sign (1:09).
The FrescaRichard spent hours tracking one down for a tour member, and Jeff feels Fresca-shorted (2:25).
The audience: Gerrit's mom (and Rachel's mom)Tour members met both moms; Rachel's mom, just back from Antarctica, stays anonymous to spare her the fan mail (4:05).
Standard of Truth TourismPlaces no one else goes and no one would want to, like the Morley farm, whose plaque was probably graffitied by Eber Howe (5:12).
Fast and testimony in KirtlandA tight schedule, Pete the bus driver's first sacrament meeting, two busloads of youth bearing testimony, and Becky now known as Deborah the prophetess (6:20, 10:55).
Claiming to be Richard's familyNow the subject line "Family Tree says we are brothers" (15:12).
Doctor inflation"Jewish French Canadian, soon to be Dr. LeDuc" and "Chancellor LeDuc"; Richard's mission return address was Super Jewish Mormon Missionary (17:12, 20:58).
Richard and the sports bettingRex cites the Hinckley gambling talk and Biff-style betting lines given after the fact (18:32).
Call-in trivia showAlec would have won the Chili's gift card for naming Amasa Lyman as the 13th apostle, a month after they told him (20:58, 35:02).
The crack research staffJust under 42,000 high councilors in about 3,500 stakes (45:24).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag
Your question could be next week’s episodeQuestions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
Go deeperWhere to read more.
Go deeper
Deep dives the episode points towardRead the February 14-15, 1835 minutes and the blessings given to the first apostles (26:12).
David W. Patten's age, Thomas B. Marsh's presidency, and how seniority in the Twelve was later settled (40:38).
How the Twelve led the exodus from Missouri and the refugees in Quincy while Joseph was in Liberty Jail (52:02).
Alec's request still waiting: what Liberty Jail taught Joseph Smith about trials (20:58).
SOT Litner · S3E26.