Yeah, in fact, we'll never answer your question. I don't even know what it is yet, but I know we won't answer it.
Standard of Truth · Season 3 · Episode 28 · 56:46
Getting "Bogged" Down by Alleged Prophecy Part 2
Bennett's affidavit was sworn before Samuel Marshall, the same justice of the peace who later tried to strangle Sheriff Minor Deming and was shot dead in the struggle.
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The question ·
Did Joseph Smith prophesy that Boggs would die a violent death, or that a church would cast a shadow over his grave?
Gerrit
Part two of the Boggs story starts with Anthony's long email about a golden investigator from Wisconsin who rescheduled his baptism for a Packers game, and Leah's plan to keep her grandma in the car for three days of Missouri episodes. Gerrit then reads John C. Bennett's affidavit before Samuel Marshall, a justice of the peace with his own violent end, and the hearsay about Porter Rockwell. He traces the church spire folklore to a 1959 Church News article about the Santa Rosa stake building near Boggs's grave in Napa, and notes that the only solid Joseph Smith source wanted Boggs to live a long life and reflect on what he'd done. A detour on Zachary Taylor's secret plan to join Utah with California, and the Punic Wars, closes the episode.
Who comes upLilburn W. BoggsJohn C. BennettPorter RockwellSamuel MarshallMinor DemingJoseph SmithBrigham YoungZachary TaylorWilliam LawCato the ElderScipio AfricanusTruman G. Madsen
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About that affidavit
Richard admits Apostles and Apostates part two has turned into why Gerrit hates John C. Bennett.
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432 moments · tap a time to play from thereIntro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.
Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. When last we left you, we were about to read a John C. Bennett affidavit, or one of his many affidavits, or affid...
Richard Hello, Gerrit. When last we left you, we were about to read a John C. Bennett affidavit, or one of his many affidavits, or affid...
Gerrit Yeah, the affid, affidoy. Maybe it goes into a kind of a French plurality.
Gerrit Yeah, the affid, affidoy. Maybe it goes into a kind of a French plurality.
Richard We are going to get back to that, but we wanted to start off with a couple of emails, if we could.
Richard We are going to get back to that, but we wanted to start off with a couple of emails, if we could.
Gerrit We ran, you know, we were just running a little long, and my hatred for John C. Bennett and all things Missouri kind of, it sends me into a, into kind of a tailspin.
Gerrit We ran, you know, we were just running a little long, and my hatred for John C. Bennett and all things Missouri kind of, it sends me into a, into kind of a tailspin.
Richard Yeah, so we, what started as apostles and apostates, part two, turned into...
Richard Yeah, so we, what started as apostles and apostates, part two, turned into...
Gerrit Why I hate John C. Bennett part 11.
Gerrit Why I hate John C. Bennett part 11.
Richard That's right. So this first email comes to us from Anthony, to the good Dr. Dirkmaat and the ever entertaining Professor LeDuc, much like your podcast, my explanation is lengthy with only asking one simple question. By the way, Anthony, we're not going to get to your question.
Richard That's right. So this first email comes to us from Anthony, to the good Dr. Dirkmaat and the ever entertaining Professor LeDuc, much like your podcast, my explanation is lengthy with only asking one simple question. By the way, Anthony, we're not going to get to your question.
Gerrit Yeah, in fact, we'll never answer your question. I don't even know what it is yet, but I know we won't answer it.
Gerrit Yeah, in fact, we'll never answer your question. I don't even know what it is yet, but I know we won't answer it.
Richard I do know what it is and I know we won't get to it.
Richard I do know what it is and I know we won't get to it.
Gerrit That's why Richard and I are friends.
Gerrit That's why Richard and I are friends.
Richard I stumbled over your podcast a few months ago and I've listened to all the free episodes, hoping to find something worth paying for the premium content. Still looking.
Richard I stumbled over your podcast a few months ago and I've listened to all the free episodes, hoping to find something worth paying for the premium content. Still looking.
Gerrit Whoa.
Gerrit Whoa.
Richard Thank you for sharing your talents and insights for listening.
Richard Thank you for sharing your talents and insights for listening.
Gerrit Apparently no talents.
Gerrit Apparently no talents.
Richard I've gathered, well, just nothing worth giving money for. I've gathered that we're from the same generation and we have a lot of same gospel experiences. I served my mission in Southern California, 99 to 2001.
Richard I've gathered, well, just nothing worth giving money for. I've gathered that we're from the same generation and we have a lot of same gospel experiences. I served my mission in Southern California, 99 to 2001.
Gerrit Just like you.
Gerrit Just like you.
Richard Very nice, I was 98 to 2000.
Richard Very nice, I was 98 to 2000.
Gerrit Was he in Riverside?
Gerrit Was he in Riverside?
Richard He was not. He was in the San Diego mission.
Richard He was not. He was in the San Diego mission.
Gerrit Ooh, so heaven.
Gerrit Ooh, so heaven.
Richard So people would live in my mission because it was cheaper and they would visit his mission for recreation, work, whatever. So I was about an hour from Temecula Murrieta where I served. Yeah, San Diego's beautiful. While there, I had the humbling privilege and honor of teaching and watching an investigator from Wisconsin be baptized. He was golden.
Richard So people would live in my mission because it was cheaper and they would visit his mission for recreation, work, whatever. So I was about an hour from Temecula Murrieta where I served. Yeah, San Diego's beautiful. While there, I had the humbling privilege and honor of teaching and watching an investigator from Wisconsin be baptized. He was golden.
Gerrit I'm throwing the flag. Okay, 15 yards. This person's name Anthony, is that?
Gerrit I'm throwing the flag. Okay, 15 yards. This person's name Anthony, is that?
Richard Yeah, Anthony.
Richard Yeah, Anthony.
Gerrit Anthony, why do you lie? Why do you try to send to this podcast the lies that you just so much lies?
Gerrit Anthony, why do you lie? Why do you try to send to this podcast the lies that you just so much lies?
Richard Well, so here's where there might be some truth. He said, we even had to reschedule a discussion for his baptism because the Packers were in town playing the Chargers. So that probably rings true. How many times did, you would go tracking on Sundays. Right, on Sundays, Packer games, how were you received?
Richard Well, so here's where there might be some truth. He said, we even had to reschedule a discussion for his baptism because the Packers were in town playing the Chargers. So that probably rings true. How many times did, you would go tracking on Sundays. Right, on Sundays, Packer games, how were you received?
Gerrit Not well. You know what's funny actually? At first, when you knocked on the door, everybody simply assumed that it was either an emergency, like one of you had fallen off your bike and your leg was behind your head, you know, or that you didn't know when the game was. Because people in Wisconsin are really, really, really nice until you try to talk to them about God. So if you want to ask them, you know, hey, what's the best way to fit your groceries into a bag, except you'd say big, they're super nice about that. Like, hey, what do you think the best way to fit my groceries into this big is? Oh, I'll show you, fine. If you try to talk to them about Jesus, that's completely different, then they turn on you. They also turn on you when it comes to the Packers. So most commonly, when we tried very hard to not be knocking on doors during a Packer game, but also we're not allowed to read the paper and we didn't have cell phones.
Gerrit Not well. You know what's funny actually? At first, when you knocked on the door, everybody simply assumed that it was either an emergency, like one of you had fallen off your bike and your leg was behind your head, you know, or that you didn't know when the game was. Because people in Wisconsin are really, really, really nice until you try to talk to them about God. So if you want to ask them, you know, hey, what's the best way to fit your groceries into a bag, except you'd say big, they're super nice about that. Like, hey, what do you think the best way to fit my groceries into this big is? Oh, I'll show you, fine. If you try to talk to them about Jesus, that's completely different, then they turn on you. They also turn on you when it comes to the Packers. So most commonly, when we tried very hard to not be knocking on doors during a Packer game, but also we're not allowed to read the paper and we didn't have cell phones.
Gerrit So how in the world do we know when a Packer game is, right? Like we know, well, it's Sunday. If it's an early game, this is gonna be bad, you know? So we would, you know, people are like, well, why didn't you just go to members' houses for dinner during that time? Uh-huh, yeah. I like how you said both members' houses and the word dinner, as though those things were going on. You could have, why didn't you do some street contacting? Oh yes, yeah, lots of people walking around the street of Green Bay, you know, it's January, just all kinds of people out. There's literally nothing you can do to share the gospel in Wisconsin. I'm not even going to say track me, there's just nothing you can do. But we would have people, you'd knock on the door, and if the Packers were playing, they actually were very solicitous towards you. They were like, oh, hey guys, you know it's a late game today, right? Like it was, I know you probably thought it was a Monday night, no, it's tonight.
Gerrit So how in the world do we know when a Packer game is, right? Like we know, well, it's Sunday. If it's an early game, this is gonna be bad, you know? So we would, you know, people are like, well, why didn't you just go to members' houses for dinner during that time? Uh-huh, yeah. I like how you said both members' houses and the word dinner, as though those things were going on. You could have, why didn't you do some street contacting? Oh yes, yeah, lots of people walking around the street of Green Bay, you know, it's January, just all kinds of people out. There's literally nothing you can do to share the gospel in Wisconsin. I'm not even going to say track me, there's just nothing you can do. But we would have people, you'd knock on the door, and if the Packers were playing, they actually were very solicitous towards you. They were like, oh, hey guys, you know it's a late game today, right? Like it was, I know you probably thought it was a Monday night, no, it's tonight.
Gerrit They would assume the only reason we'd be knocking on anyone's door during a game is that we didn't know when the game started. That's the only rational reason why. And then when they found out that we were there intentionally, then they told us that my parents were never married and then she slammed the door.
Gerrit They would assume the only reason we'd be knocking on anyone's door during a game is that we didn't know when the game started. That's the only rational reason why. And then when they found out that we were there intentionally, then they told us that my parents were never married and then she slammed the door.
Richard All right, going on to Anthony's email.
Richard All right, going on to Anthony's email.
Gerrit So that maybe, maybe then.
Gerrit So that maybe, maybe then.
Richard Maybe, yeah, the Packer thing brought you back that it might be true.
Richard Maybe, yeah, the Packer thing brought you back that it might be true.
Gerrit It brought me back that maybe, that's evidence. That's an affidavit.
Gerrit It brought me back that maybe, that's evidence. That's an affidavit.
Richard I too had found and enjoyed Truman G. Madsen's CD collection of lectures on the prophet Joseph Smith and loved how he put into context the stories and history of the early church, much like you two, only better.
Richard I too had found and enjoyed Truman G. Madsen's CD collection of lectures on the prophet Joseph Smith and loved how he put into context the stories and history of the early church, much like you two, only better.
Gerrit Wow, Anthony hates us.
Gerrit Wow, Anthony hates us.
Richard By the way, but that's true. I mean, get out of here. If you haven't, stop listening right now and go get those, they're all available on YouTube.
Richard By the way, but that's true. I mean, get out of here. If you haven't, stop listening right now and go get those, they're all available on YouTube.
Gerrit Well, that's our marketing campaign. Stop listening to this right now.
Gerrit Well, that's our marketing campaign. Stop listening to this right now.
Richard And go listen to anything Trimigy Madsen's ever done.
Richard And go listen to anything Trimigy Madsen's ever done.
Gerrit Pretty sure Rex's elders quorum president's already stopped.
Gerrit Pretty sure Rex's elders quorum president's already stopped.
Richard Along with this, President Hinckley, President Faust, Elder Maxwell, a good story of Jay Golden and the pure heart of Porter Rockwell show us the Lord uses Ben from all walks of life to build Zion, no matter their background or weakness, they continue to testify of the continuing restoration. Okay, down to my reason for the unnecessary long email. And then he goes on to ask a question. We're not gonna get to it. It's a question about the succession crisis. So we just wanted to read the positive part of the email, as positive, I guess, as that email was.
Richard Along with this, President Hinckley, President Faust, Elder Maxwell, a good story of Jay Golden and the pure heart of Porter Rockwell show us the Lord uses Ben from all walks of life to build Zion, no matter their background or weakness, they continue to testify of the continuing restoration. Okay, down to my reason for the unnecessary long email. And then he goes on to ask a question. We're not gonna get to it. It's a question about the succession crisis. So we just wanted to read the positive part of the email, as positive, I guess, as that email was.
Gerrit The email saying, hey, I don't think you guys have good enough stuff for anyone to pay for. And by the way, you do it worse than most other people.
Gerrit The email saying, hey, I don't think you guys have good enough stuff for anyone to pay for. And by the way, you do it worse than most other people.
Richard That's right. Well, do it worse than one of the best that ever did it.
Richard That's right. Well, do it worse than one of the best that ever did it.
Gerrit He is better than us.
Gerrit He is better than us.
Richard But we are going to do a series of episodes on the succession crisis.
Richard But we are going to do a series of episodes on the succession crisis.
Gerrit We'll never do that.
Richard But not this week. So, we will be getting to that eventually. We have one other email here to read, I am in Missouri as a subject line. In August, I'll be holding my grandma hostage on a three-day drive from Ohio to Utah. I don't know if it's possible, but if there could be a few episodes about the violence in Missouri, I want her to be able to hear it and really let it sink in while we drive the path that the pioneers took.
Gerrit We'll never do that.
Richard But not this week. So, we will be getting to that eventually. We have one other email here to read, I am in Missouri as a subject line. In August, I'll be holding my grandma hostage on a three-day drive from Ohio to Utah. I don't know if it's possible, but if there could be a few episodes about the violence in Missouri, I want her to be able to hear it and really let it sink in while we drive the path that the pioneers took.
Gerrit Well, she got a little bit of that from our last episode.
Gerrit Well, she got a little bit of that from our last episode.
Richard Yes, so a little bit from that. A little background, my mom joined the church when she was 19. My dad was her friend from work, baptized her, left on a mission and two years later, they were married. My grandma took the discussions 25 plus years ago and while my brother and I were both on our missions, we challenged her to read the Book of Mormon and pray about it. She made it three chapters, both times. Then Gerrit and I talked about this. Is it possible, Leah, that you had her start in 2 Nephi 12?
Richard Yes, so a little bit from that. A little background, my mom joined the church when she was 19. My dad was her friend from work, baptized her, left on a mission and two years later, they were married. My grandma took the discussions 25 plus years ago and while my brother and I were both on our missions, we challenged her to read the Book of Mormon and pray about it. She made it three chapters, both times. Then Gerrit and I talked about this. Is it possible, Leah, that you had her start in 2 Nephi 12?
Gerrit Right.
Gerrit Right.
Richard Like you just had her start in a-
Richard Like you just had her start in a-
Gerrit Dead center of the Isaiah chapter.
Gerrit Dead center of the Isaiah chapter.
Richard On the very beginning, really. And so, I mean, and the reason I say that is because when I read the Book of Mormon, I start in 4 Nephi. When I start reading-
Richard On the very beginning, really. And so, I mean, and the reason I say that is because when I read the Book of Mormon, I start in 4 Nephi. When I start reading-
Gerrit Interesting.
Gerrit Interesting.
Richard Start in 4 Nephi because I start with essentially them killing and eating people and then I end the Book of Mormon with Jesus coming. And so I want to end, like, you know, it just changes my perspective a little bit in reading the Book of Mormon to have it, instead of ending tragically and terrible, it ends on a high note.
Richard Start in 4 Nephi because I start with essentially them killing and eating people and then I end the Book of Mormon with Jesus coming. And so I want to end, like, you know, it just changes my perspective a little bit in reading the Book of Mormon to have it, instead of ending tragically and terrible, it ends on a high note.
Gerrit But you're suggesting that Leah is having her grandma start on 2 Nephi chapter 12. On 2 Nephi just to like, hey, no, look, we've got Bible stuff in here. No, no, there's Bible stuff, there's Bible stuff.
Gerrit But you're suggesting that Leah is having her grandma start on 2 Nephi chapter 12. On 2 Nephi just to like, hey, no, look, we've got Bible stuff in here. No, no, there's Bible stuff, there's Bible stuff.
Richard Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then she makes it three chapters and then-
Richard Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then she makes it three chapters and then-
Gerrit Yeah, and then she's like, okay, because the daughter's a designer hottie.
Gerrit Yeah, and then she's like, okay, because the daughter's a designer hottie.
Richard Anyways, it's possible that that might not be your grandma's fault, because if you have her starting there, we don't blame her. I want her to hear the history about Missouri and the martyrdom. I am a premium content junkie. Oh, geez, I should have treated this with more respect.
Richard Anyways, it's possible that that might not be your grandma's fault, because if you have her starting there, we don't blame her. I want her to hear the history about Missouri and the martyrdom. I am a premium content junkie. Oh, geez, I should have treated this with more respect.
Gerrit Why didn't we read Leah's first and Anthony of I'm not willing to pay for anything you guys put out ever.
Gerrit Why didn't we read Leah's first and Anthony of I'm not willing to pay for anything you guys put out ever.
Richard A premium content junkie, look forward to all you you and Sultan LeDuc, well I guess you and Dirkmaats because you're the one reading the emails have planned. Thank you, Leah. Well, so we are gonna talk a little bit more about some of the things that go on in Missouri as we get back to the apostles and apostates, but not yet because we're about to talk about Boggs for a second episode.
Richard A premium content junkie, look forward to all you you and Sultan LeDuc, well I guess you and Dirkmaats because you're the one reading the emails have planned. Thank you, Leah. Well, so we are gonna talk a little bit more about some of the things that go on in Missouri as we get back to the apostles and apostates, but not yet because we're about to talk about Boggs for a second episode.
Gerrit Well, speaking of succession, I mean, if we follow the apostles and apostates far enough, we'll get up to where some of them are apostatizing because of the succession.
Gerrit Well, speaking of succession, I mean, if we follow the apostles and apostates far enough, we'll get up to where some of them are apostatizing because of the succession.
Richard Well, I mean, we've received probably 20 plus emails about succession, so we really do need to get there eventually.
Richard Well, I mean, we've received probably 20 plus emails about succession, so we really do need to get there eventually.
Gerrit We don't like to give people what they want. We like to give them what they need. And what they need is us not answering their question.
Gerrit We don't like to give people what they want. We like to give them what they need. And what they need is us not answering their question.
Richard That's right.
Gerrit What they need is an entirely unnecessary, too long of an introduction.
Richard That's right.
Gerrit What they need is an entirely unnecessary, too long of an introduction.
Richard Yeah, yeah.
Richard Yeah, yeah.
Gerrit Well, you just got that. We just gave that to you. But yes, we are going to talk about, first, the affidavit that John C. Bennett swears out. This is, again, after he's been excommunicated for numerous adulteries, after he has admitted to these publicly, after he's actually sworn to his crimes.
Gerrit Well, you just got that. We just gave that to you. But yes, we are going to talk about, first, the affidavit that John C. Bennett swears out. This is, again, after he's been excommunicated for numerous adulteries, after he has admitted to these publicly, after he's actually sworn to his crimes.
Richard Do we know how many adulterous affairs?
Richard Do we know how many adulterous affairs?
Gerrit We don't know exactly how many.
Gerrit We don't know exactly how many.
Richard Is it like LeBron James in Miami? Not one, not two, not three?
Richard Is it like LeBron James in Miami? Not one, not two, not three?
Gerrit The number of championships that we're gonna win? Maybe, if we're gonna use an NBA player, it might be closer to Will Chamberlain if we're using a kind of, you know.
Gerrit The number of championships that we're gonna win? Maybe, if we're gonna use an NBA player, it might be closer to Will Chamberlain if we're using a kind of, you know.
Richard I was just doing, when they, their press conference, how many championships are you gonna win?
Richard I was just doing, when they, their press conference, how many championships are you gonna win?
Gerrit You know, the very interesting thing about John C. Bennett is he spends the next several years claiming that he was excommunicated on totally trumped up false charges, right? That he was excommunicated because he caught them doing that. And that's why they excommunicated him to keep him, you know, hush him up, basically. So he actually denies for years that he committed adultery at all. And yet I know that he's lying. And I know that he's lying because John C. Bennett will later say, okay, yeah, I did have an affair, but they were guilty of worse things. So after years of saying, there were no affairs at all, he then in a public meeting in Massachusetts, actually, I believe, says, okay, I was involved with a fair princess of Nauvoo.
Gerrit You know, the very interesting thing about John C. Bennett is he spends the next several years claiming that he was excommunicated on totally trumped up false charges, right? That he was excommunicated because he caught them doing that. And that's why they excommunicated him to keep him, you know, hush him up, basically. So he actually denies for years that he committed adultery at all. And yet I know that he's lying. And I know that he's lying because John C. Bennett will later say, okay, yeah, I did have an affair, but they were guilty of worse things. So after years of saying, there were no affairs at all, he then in a public meeting in Massachusetts, actually, I believe, says, okay, I was involved with a fair princess of Nauvoo.
Richard So here's the problem, though, is that your evidence that he's lying is him saying that he's lying, which may very well be evidence that he wasn't lying.
Richard So here's the problem, though, is that your evidence that he's lying is him saying that he's lying, which may very well be evidence that he wasn't lying.
Gerrit So it's possible that he lies so much that even when he lies about himself lying, that he's somehow telling the truth about the fact that he never lied because he was lying about the truth?
Gerrit So it's possible that he lies so much that even when he lies about himself lying, that he's somehow telling the truth about the fact that he never lied because he was lying about the truth?
Richard That's exactly what I'm saying.
Richard That's exactly what I'm saying.
Gerrit I think that we need to get into this and examine it further. But first, the affidavit. And this is the Justice of the Peace, writing this down. Personally appeared before me Samuel Marshall, a Justice of the Peace in and for said county, John C. Bennett, who being duly sworn, according to the law, to poseth, saith, that on the 5th of July, 1842, at the house of Mr. Hamilton and Carthage, Mr. Orrin Porter Rockwell came to him with a desire to private interview, to which the deponent replied, that if he Rockwell had anything to say, he could speak it out in front of the gentleman present. Rockwell said that it was a private matter, which interested them only. The deponent went out with him. I like again, Bennett, even in his Oda for David, I was too honorable to say that we could speak privately about something like that. And then he said, yeah, but it is private. Okay, so I went out with him. Yeah, great principles. Rockwell said, doctor, you do not know your friends. I'm not your enemy. And I do not wish that you make use of my name in your publications.
Gerrit I think that we need to get into this and examine it further. But first, the affidavit. And this is the Justice of the Peace, writing this down. Personally appeared before me Samuel Marshall, a Justice of the Peace in and for said county, John C. Bennett, who being duly sworn, according to the law, to poseth, saith, that on the 5th of July, 1842, at the house of Mr. Hamilton and Carthage, Mr. Orrin Porter Rockwell came to him with a desire to private interview, to which the deponent replied, that if he Rockwell had anything to say, he could speak it out in front of the gentleman present. Rockwell said that it was a private matter, which interested them only. The deponent went out with him. I like again, Bennett, even in his Oda for David, I was too honorable to say that we could speak privately about something like that. And then he said, yeah, but it is private. Okay, so I went out with him. Yeah, great principles. Rockwell said, doctor, you do not know your friends. I'm not your enemy. And I do not wish that you make use of my name in your publications.
Richard You said that like a stereotypical Italian guy on a pizza box. You amicamai.
Richard You said that like a stereotypical Italian guy on a pizza box. You amicamai.
Gerrit And you can come get our fresh breadsticks as well. Sometimes I have a hard time with words and forming them together to make sentences.
Gerrit And you can come get our fresh breadsticks as well. Sometimes I have a hard time with words and forming them together to make sentences.
Richard Well, you see me poorly read emails every week. I feel your pain on that.
Richard Well, you see me poorly read emails every week. I feel your pain on that.
Gerrit Yeah. Deponent replied that he recognized Joe Smith and all his friends as his personal enemies. To which Rockwell replied, I have been informed by Warner and Davis that you and Smith gave me $50 in a wagon for shooting Boggs and that I can and will whip any man that will tell such a cursed lie. Did you say so or not? After looking at him for a moment or two, the deponent said, I never said so, sir, but I did say and I now say to your face that you left Nauvoo about two months before the attempted assassination of Governor Boggs in Missouri and returned the day before the report of his assassination reached there and that two persons in Nauvoo told me that you told them. Listen to this affidavit. Two persons in Nauvoo told me that you told them that you had been to the upper part of the Missouri. At this point, it'd be easier just to say destructives.
Gerrit Yeah. Deponent replied that he recognized Joe Smith and all his friends as his personal enemies. To which Rockwell replied, I have been informed by Warner and Davis that you and Smith gave me $50 in a wagon for shooting Boggs and that I can and will whip any man that will tell such a cursed lie. Did you say so or not? After looking at him for a moment or two, the deponent said, I never said so, sir, but I did say and I now say to your face that you left Nauvoo about two months before the attempted assassination of Governor Boggs in Missouri and returned the day before the report of his assassination reached there and that two persons in Nauvoo told me that you told them. Listen to this affidavit. Two persons in Nauvoo told me that you told them that you had been to the upper part of the Missouri. At this point, it'd be easier just to say destructives.
Richard That's why he skips to it before.
Richard That's why he skips to it before.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard When he's not under oath.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard When he's not under oath.
Gerrit Yeah, when he's under oath. To which Rockwell replied, well, I was there and if I shot Boggs, they have got to prove it. I never did an act in my life that I was ashamed of and I do not fear to go anywhere that I have ever been for I have done nothing criminal. Deponent replied, certainly they have got to prove it on you if you did shoot him. I know nothing of what you did. I was not there. I only know the circumstances and from them, I draw up my own inferences and the public will theirs. And now sir, if either you or Joe Smith think that you can intimidate me by your threats, you are mistaken in your man. And I wish you to understand distinctly that I am opposed to Joe and his holy host. I shall tell the truth fearlessly, except for the year and a half that you stayed in the church after you knew he was gonna try to assassinate him. But other than that, I will tell the truth fearlessly. And regardless of consequences, Rockwell replied, if you say that Joe Smith gave me $50, so I already know that, I already know he's not quoting, Porter Rockwell never referred to Joseph Smith as Joe ever.
Gerrit Yeah, when he's under oath. To which Rockwell replied, well, I was there and if I shot Boggs, they have got to prove it. I never did an act in my life that I was ashamed of and I do not fear to go anywhere that I have ever been for I have done nothing criminal. Deponent replied, certainly they have got to prove it on you if you did shoot him. I know nothing of what you did. I was not there. I only know the circumstances and from them, I draw up my own inferences and the public will theirs. And now sir, if either you or Joe Smith think that you can intimidate me by your threats, you are mistaken in your man. And I wish you to understand distinctly that I am opposed to Joe and his holy host. I shall tell the truth fearlessly, except for the year and a half that you stayed in the church after you knew he was gonna try to assassinate him. But other than that, I will tell the truth fearlessly. And regardless of consequences, Rockwell replied, if you say that Joe Smith gave me $50, so I already know that, I already know he's not quoting, Porter Rockwell never referred to Joseph Smith as Joe ever.
Gerrit But here apparently he is. If you say that Joe Smith gave me $50 and a wagon of shoot Boggs, I can whip you and I will do it in any crowd.
Gerrit But here apparently he is. If you say that Joe Smith gave me $50 and a wagon of shoot Boggs, I can whip you and I will do it in any crowd.
Richard I thought he offered him 500.
Richard I thought he offered him 500.
Gerrit I know, it's funny. I mean, maybe he just said, you know what?
Gerrit I know, it's funny. I mean, maybe he just said, you know what?
Richard You're shortchanging his buddy?
Richard You're shortchanging his buddy?
Gerrit Yeah, well, he's just like, you know what? 10%. Tie the gun. I'm gonna tie the.
Gerrit Yeah, well, he's just like, you know what? 10%. Tie the gun. I'm gonna tie the.
Richard By the way, what's worse than hearsay? Is there something worse than hearsay? Well, that's not admissible anyway.
Richard By the way, what's worse than hearsay? Is there something worse than hearsay? Well, that's not admissible anyway.
Gerrit It's anytime Bennett talks. Whatever that is. This.
Gerrit It's anytime Bennett talks. Whatever that is. This.
Richard Here's hearsay, and then below that is John C.
Richard Here's hearsay, and then below that is John C.
Gerrit Well, that's the funny part about affidavits is that you realize whether an affidavit is sworn or not, it doesn't prove literally anything in the affidavit. That's why they are generally not admissible because you have to be able to cross examine the person. So that when they say things like, if you say that Joe Smith gave me $50, that the other attorney can stop and say, so you're saying that Porter Rockwell used a derogatory term for Joseph Smith when he was talking to you. That's what you're saying because that would demonstrate that you're kind of making this up. Why are you harping on what I have not said? This is what Bennett is saying. I have not told you what I have said to your face. I have told you what I have said to your face and in the presence of this gentleman, and you acknowledge the truth of all that I've said and I shall say it again.
Gerrit Well, that's the funny part about affidavits is that you realize whether an affidavit is sworn or not, it doesn't prove literally anything in the affidavit. That's why they are generally not admissible because you have to be able to cross examine the person. So that when they say things like, if you say that Joe Smith gave me $50, that the other attorney can stop and say, so you're saying that Porter Rockwell used a derogatory term for Joseph Smith when he was talking to you. That's what you're saying because that would demonstrate that you're kind of making this up. Why are you harping on what I have not said? This is what Bennett is saying. I have not told you what I have said to your face. I have told you what I have said to your face and in the presence of this gentleman, and you acknowledge the truth of all that I've said and I shall say it again.
Gerrit And if you wish to fight, I am ready for you. I would have loved to see that. I would have paid pay-per-view prices, Porter Rockwell versus John C. Bennett.
Gerrit And if you wish to fight, I am ready for you. I would have loved to see that. I would have paid pay-per-view prices, Porter Rockwell versus John C. Bennett.
Richard It's like an MTV claymation death match from the late 90s.
Richard It's like an MTV claymation death match from the late 90s.
Gerrit Dana White got nothing on that fight. I, you know what, my celestial kingdom, if I make it, what I want to see is Porter Rockwell fighting John C. Bennett. That's, that to me is celestial kingdom. In fact, you know what, I'm gonna try to go now. Just because-
Gerrit Dana White got nothing on that fight. I, you know what, my celestial kingdom, if I make it, what I want to see is Porter Rockwell fighting John C. Bennett. That's, that to me is celestial kingdom. In fact, you know what, I'm gonna try to go now. Just because-
Richard You're gonna try to go to the celestial kingdom?
Richard You're gonna try to go to the celestial kingdom?
Gerrit Well, I wasn't gonna go before. My plan before was that Angie's such a good person that maybe I could just get in.
Gerrit Well, I wasn't gonna go before. My plan before was that Angie's such a good person that maybe I could just get in.
Richard So drag you there, but-
Richard So drag you there, but-
Gerrit Yeah, kicking and screaming. Yeah, I expect Jesus to say something or the other, like, well, not for his sake, I guess, but for hers. And then, yeah, yeah, perfect. Oh, look, it's Rockwell and Bennett. Yeah, Sunday, Sunday, Sunday, in the celestial kingdom.
Gerrit Yeah, kicking and screaming. Yeah, I expect Jesus to say something or the other, like, well, not for his sake, I guess, but for hers. And then, yeah, yeah, perfect. Oh, look, it's Rockwell and Bennett. Yeah, Sunday, Sunday, Sunday, in the celestial kingdom.
Richard Well, celestial kingdom.
Richard Well, celestial kingdom.
Gerrit Well, I mean, you have to go down and find-
Gerrit Well, I mean, you have to go down and find-
Richard Yeah, since this is after the resurrection.
Richard Yeah, since this is after the resurrection.
Gerrit Oh, clearly, clearly. Well, I want them to have bodies so it can be a good fight. Anyway-
Gerrit Oh, clearly, clearly. Well, I want them to have bodies so it can be a good fight. Anyway-
Richard Hold on, hold on. Now I actually want to watch a fight where they don't have bodies. Just two spirits duking it out.
Richard Hold on, hold on. Now I actually want to watch a fight where they don't have bodies. Just two spirits duking it out.
Gerrit Well, I feel like, I feel like Rex's elders' corps president is pretty disappointed right now. Let me go back to something more serious. John C. Bennett's affidavit filled with lies. Uh, I don't know. Uh, Rockwell told the deponent, which is Bennett, that he had been accused wrongfully of wishing to assassinate him or being ordered by Joseph Smith to do it, but the deponent said, I believe that Joseph ordered you to do it. I know that orders went from him to the Danites for that purpose. Rockwell said that Smith had never given him such orders. Neither was it his intention. And further this deponent sayeth not. The justice of the piece that they swear that affidavit out to is a man by the name of Samuel Marshall. Samuel Marshall is actually going to have a long history of anti-Mormonism as well. So not only is he okay, so sure, he's the justice of the piece. He's not a friendly justice of the piece. In fact, this is a little extra bonus for you.
Gerrit Well, I feel like, I feel like Rex's elders' corps president is pretty disappointed right now. Let me go back to something more serious. John C. Bennett's affidavit filled with lies. Uh, I don't know. Uh, Rockwell told the deponent, which is Bennett, that he had been accused wrongfully of wishing to assassinate him or being ordered by Joseph Smith to do it, but the deponent said, I believe that Joseph ordered you to do it. I know that orders went from him to the Danites for that purpose. Rockwell said that Smith had never given him such orders. Neither was it his intention. And further this deponent sayeth not. The justice of the piece that they swear that affidavit out to is a man by the name of Samuel Marshall. Samuel Marshall is actually going to have a long history of anti-Mormonism as well. So not only is he okay, so sure, he's the justice of the piece. He's not a friendly justice of the piece. In fact, this is a little extra bonus for you.
Gerrit We're gonna take two episodes to answer this question. Samuel Marshall is the justice of the piece. He's in Carthage, who will actually assault Minor Deming, the sheriff of Hancock County, yep. He assaults Minor Deming.
Gerrit We're gonna take two episodes to answer this question. Samuel Marshall is the justice of the piece. He's in Carthage, who will actually assault Minor Deming, the sheriff of Hancock County, yep. He assaults Minor Deming.
Richard Oh, friend of the show, Minor Deming.
Richard Oh, friend of the show, Minor Deming.
Gerrit Friend of the show. He assaults Minor Deming and tries to strangle him. And in that attempt to strangle him, Minor Deming will pull his gun and shoot him and kill him. And this is that same Samuel Marshall. So three years later, he's going to die attempting to kill the-
Gerrit Friend of the show. He assaults Minor Deming and tries to strangle him. And in that attempt to strangle him, Minor Deming will pull his gun and shoot him and kill him. And this is that same Samuel Marshall. So three years later, he's going to die attempting to kill the-
Richard Non-Latter-day Saint, Minor Deming.
Richard Non-Latter-day Saint, Minor Deming.
Gerrit Yeah, sheriff. Yeah, he's a Christian. He's not a Latter-day Saint at all. But he's trying to do justice like, hey, you can't just burn down their houses, guys. You know, I mean, come on. So Samuel Marshall, clearly, clearly an objective justice of the peace. Someone who's willing to try to strangle someone to death to the point where he gets shot by the sheriff who he's trying to kill. Anyway, there's several affidavits that are in there, all sworn out to Samuel Marshall, and all saying that, oh yeah, oh yeah, I was told, here's the funny part. It was a secret. Nobody knew anything about it. There's a dozen people in Carthage who all just happened to overhear it. Yeah, yeah, it was a secret. Only the first presence he knew, and also all of these guys at this bar in Carthage. Also all know.
Gerrit Yeah, sheriff. Yeah, he's a Christian. He's not a Latter-day Saint at all. But he's trying to do justice like, hey, you can't just burn down their houses, guys. You know, I mean, come on. So Samuel Marshall, clearly, clearly an objective justice of the peace. Someone who's willing to try to strangle someone to death to the point where he gets shot by the sheriff who he's trying to kill. Anyway, there's several affidavits that are in there, all sworn out to Samuel Marshall, and all saying that, oh yeah, oh yeah, I was told, here's the funny part. It was a secret. Nobody knew anything about it. There's a dozen people in Carthage who all just happened to overhear it. Yeah, yeah, it was a secret. Only the first presence he knew, and also all of these guys at this bar in Carthage. Also all know.
Richard I'm picturing kind of in my mind a scene from Steel Magnolias, right? You've got True V and Weezer Boudreaux with her dog tied up in the front.
Richard I'm picturing kind of in my mind a scene from Steel Magnolias, right? You've got True V and Weezer Boudreaux with her dog tied up in the front.
Gerrit I'm a little bit concerned that you know the last names of some of the characters.
Gerrit I'm a little bit concerned that you know the last names of some of the characters.
Richard It's one of my wife's favorite movies. I've seen it a thousand times, but this is how I, I mean, just, I mean, you know, you've got, they've got your boy Bennett, he's in there to get his hair done did, and they're just talking about, you know, an upcoming wedding.
Richard It's one of my wife's favorite movies. I've seen it a thousand times, but this is how I, I mean, just, I mean, you know, you've got, they've got your boy Bennett, he's in there to get his hair done did, and they're just talking about, you know, an upcoming wedding.
Gerrit So I says to Mabel.
Gerrit So I says to Mabel.
Richard So I says to Mabel, as I says to Weezer, I says, and then how about them daughters of Zion?
Richard So I says to Mabel, as I says to Weezer, I says, and then how about them daughters of Zion?
Gerrit Yeah, hey, have you guys tried to kill it? Has Joe Smith paid any y'all to shoot a Missouri governor lately? Oh, oh, I have, oh, okay. So that's how you envision it?
Gerrit Yeah, hey, have you guys tried to kill it? Has Joe Smith paid any y'all to shoot a Missouri governor lately? Oh, oh, I have, oh, okay. So that's how you envision it?
Richard That's exactly how I envision it. Well, with John C. Bennett's head in one of those.
Richard That's exactly how I envision it. Well, with John C. Bennett's head in one of those.
Gerrit Hair dryer? You know what? He did have nice hair from the images that we saw. I mean, how else was he able to seduce so many women in Nauvoo? Personally, but appeared before me, Samuel Marshall, Justice of the Peace in said county, John H. Lawton, who being duly sworn according to law deposes, say that on the fifth day of July, he came to where General John C. Bennett and Warren Porter Rockwell were in conversation at the house of Mr. Hamilton in Carthage and heard Rockwell say that he'd been up in Boggs' neighborhood and that if he shot Boggs, they had to prove it. So I'm getting the same thing, this, oh yeah, and I even heard their conversations. Here say on top of hearsay about a hearsay conversation. That is all part of this Boggs, you know, imbroglio, right? So does Joseph Smith ever say, oh yes, Boggs is going to die a horrible death? This actually matters because like anti-Mormon subreddits, they will say things like, oh yeah, this is one of the failed prophecies of Joseph Smith.
Gerrit Hair dryer? You know what? He did have nice hair from the images that we saw. I mean, how else was he able to seduce so many women in Nauvoo? Personally, but appeared before me, Samuel Marshall, Justice of the Peace in said county, John H. Lawton, who being duly sworn according to law deposes, say that on the fifth day of July, he came to where General John C. Bennett and Warren Porter Rockwell were in conversation at the house of Mr. Hamilton in Carthage and heard Rockwell say that he'd been up in Boggs' neighborhood and that if he shot Boggs, they had to prove it. So I'm getting the same thing, this, oh yeah, and I even heard their conversations. Here say on top of hearsay about a hearsay conversation. That is all part of this Boggs, you know, imbroglio, right? So does Joseph Smith ever say, oh yes, Boggs is going to die a horrible death? This actually matters because like anti-Mormon subreddits, they will say things like, oh yeah, this is one of the failed prophecies of Joseph Smith.
Gerrit He prophesied that Boggs would die a horrible, violent death.
Gerrit He prophesied that Boggs would die a horrible, violent death.
Richard Just what level of Protestant hell is anti-Mormon subreddit?
Richard Just what level of Protestant hell is anti-Mormon subreddit?
Gerrit It's like the ninth ring of dantes.
Gerrit It's like the ninth ring of dantes.
Richard It's combining all of the bad of Protestant hell with all of the bad of Catholic hell into one subreddit.
Richard It's combining all of the bad of Protestant hell with all of the bad of Catholic hell into one subreddit.
Gerrit And no purgatory.
Gerrit And no purgatory.
Richard That's right.
Richard That's right.
Gerrit No one's praying their way out of this. It's Calvin's hell. And then when you've been there for ages, that's basically what it's like to read an anti-Mormon subreddit. The level of animosity is just, well, people have had a bad day. If you're looking for the most unhappy people on earth, and no one from the war zone in Ukraine is available, you could go there and you can get something slightly worse. Yeah, I mean, the bitterness is unbelievable, but they'll say things like on that. They'll say, here's one of the failed prophecies of Joseph Smith because he prophesied that Boggs would die a violent death, and he didn't. He prophesied that a shadow would be over his grave, and there isn't one. And he prophesied that no grass would ever grow on Boggs' grave.
Gerrit No one's praying their way out of this. It's Calvin's hell. And then when you've been there for ages, that's basically what it's like to read an anti-Mormon subreddit. The level of animosity is just, well, people have had a bad day. If you're looking for the most unhappy people on earth, and no one from the war zone in Ukraine is available, you could go there and you can get something slightly worse. Yeah, I mean, the bitterness is unbelievable, but they'll say things like on that. They'll say, here's one of the failed prophecies of Joseph Smith because he prophesied that Boggs would die a violent death, and he didn't. He prophesied that a shadow would be over his grave, and there isn't one. And he prophesied that no grass would ever grow on Boggs' grave.
Gerrit Now you'll find, you can't find those prophecies anywhere. I always find it best when you're attacking a religion for being false to make up things about what that religion said and then prove that it never happened. It seems to be pretty effective. Now that folklore that you're referencing, certainly people have repeated it. I've actually had multiple people ask me about it. Most of them people either serve their mission there or who are from there. Oh yeah, Joseph said that there'd be a church spire that would overshadow it. Now I don't know exactly how to track down every part of where that comes from, but look, it's just, it's sound practice that whenever someone says Joseph Smith said, you should be able to find where Joseph Smith said it, especially with the Joseph Smith Papers website. If there's something that's pretty specific that Joseph said, you should be able to go to the website, put it into the search.
Gerrit Now you'll find, you can't find those prophecies anywhere. I always find it best when you're attacking a religion for being false to make up things about what that religion said and then prove that it never happened. It seems to be pretty effective. Now that folklore that you're referencing, certainly people have repeated it. I've actually had multiple people ask me about it. Most of them people either serve their mission there or who are from there. Oh yeah, Joseph said that there'd be a church spire that would overshadow it. Now I don't know exactly how to track down every part of where that comes from, but look, it's just, it's sound practice that whenever someone says Joseph Smith said, you should be able to find where Joseph Smith said it, especially with the Joseph Smith Papers website. If there's something that's pretty specific that Joseph said, you should be able to go to the website, put it into the search.
Gerrit If no part of what he quote unquote said came up, that doesn't mean that there's not a record of it, but it means it's not something that he said in his life that was recorded in his life, right? Cause it's not a contemporary document. Now, of course you have thousands of documents where people are later saying, oh yeah, I was talking to Joseph once and he said this. So it still might be possible, but I think really part of the origination of this is there was a Church News article in 1959 that was entitled, Shadow of Mormon Chapel falls on grave of Governor Boggs. Don't worry, they used the word Mormon back then. It was okay. Even though it's the Church News, I'm not reading this from the Salt Lake Tribune. Shadow of Mormon Chapel falls on grave of Governor Boggs, written by George I. Scott. And it's Napa, California.
Gerrit If no part of what he quote unquote said came up, that doesn't mean that there's not a record of it, but it means it's not something that he said in his life that was recorded in his life, right? Cause it's not a contemporary document. Now, of course you have thousands of documents where people are later saying, oh yeah, I was talking to Joseph once and he said this. So it still might be possible, but I think really part of the origination of this is there was a Church News article in 1959 that was entitled, Shadow of Mormon Chapel falls on grave of Governor Boggs. Don't worry, they used the word Mormon back then. It was okay. Even though it's the Church News, I'm not reading this from the Salt Lake Tribune. Shadow of Mormon Chapel falls on grave of Governor Boggs, written by George I. Scott. And it's Napa, California.
Gerrit Time has given an ironical twist to a trying time in the history of the Church. In the trouble-filled days of 1834 and 1839, when officials of Missouri threatened to exterminate the Mormons if they did not leave their lands and homes, the drastic measures were backed by Governor Lilburn W. Boggs and his subordinates. The old settlers of Missouri openly threatened that every man, woman, and child would be whipped and scourged if they did not leave the country. Mobbings followed, troops were called into action against the Church members by Governor Boggs. The Mormons finally left for Nauvoo. Following the martyrdom of their prophet Joseph Smith, the pioneers prepared for their great migration west. At about the same time, another Westerner headed west. He was Lilburn W. Boggs. He went to California in 1848 and became a member of the first Constitutional Convention of the state.
Gerrit Time has given an ironical twist to a trying time in the history of the Church. In the trouble-filled days of 1834 and 1839, when officials of Missouri threatened to exterminate the Mormons if they did not leave their lands and homes, the drastic measures were backed by Governor Lilburn W. Boggs and his subordinates. The old settlers of Missouri openly threatened that every man, woman, and child would be whipped and scourged if they did not leave the country. Mobbings followed, troops were called into action against the Church members by Governor Boggs. The Mormons finally left for Nauvoo. Following the martyrdom of their prophet Joseph Smith, the pioneers prepared for their great migration west. At about the same time, another Westerner headed west. He was Lilburn W. Boggs. He went to California in 1848 and became a member of the first Constitutional Convention of the state.
Gerrit Today, his grave is marked by a tombstone in a graveyard at Napa, California. On a hill overlooking the graveyard and in view of the former governor's grave is the Santa Rosa steak tabernacle of the Church that he ordered exterminated in Missouri. The tabernacle is headquarters for 4,231 Mormons in the Napa Valley and one of the 37 steaks in the state of California. So you can tell there's a little bit of a flex going on there from George Scott. It's just a minor, minor flex. You'll notice that even that doesn't say, and thus fulfills the prophecy of Joseph Smith. That, that, that, that, that.
Gerrit Today, his grave is marked by a tombstone in a graveyard at Napa, California. On a hill overlooking the graveyard and in view of the former governor's grave is the Santa Rosa steak tabernacle of the Church that he ordered exterminated in Missouri. The tabernacle is headquarters for 4,231 Mormons in the Napa Valley and one of the 37 steaks in the state of California. So you can tell there's a little bit of a flex going on there from George Scott. It's just a minor, minor flex. You'll notice that even that doesn't say, and thus fulfills the prophecy of Joseph Smith. That, that, that, that, that.
Richard Yeah, it's a little bit of a literary, you know, he's playing with words a little bit to say in the shadow of, right?
Richard Yeah, it's a little bit of a literary, you know, he's playing with words a little bit to say in the shadow of, right?
Gerrit In the shadow of the Everlasting Hills. Again, we leave you Governor Boggs in the shadow of a steak center in Minneapolis. Yeah, well, so you, you can see how, you know, and then this, the whole idea of, oh, and grass won't grow under, there's actually an old common, you know, curse that people would have, you know, that would be put upon your grave and things like that. So I don't know how it got to the point where it is now, but like I said, there are anti-Mormon subreddits that talk about the very fact that, that, you know, that Joseph Smith said that there'd be a shadow on his grave and there isn't one. I mean, where did Joseph Smith say this is the question, right? So you get to this point where you realize, you know, there's, a lot of the times when you hear things like that, if you can't find that source readily available on either, you know, the church's website or on the Joseph Smith Papers website, then there's a pretty good chance that it's not actually that great a source, even if it is a source.
Gerrit In the shadow of the Everlasting Hills. Again, we leave you Governor Boggs in the shadow of a steak center in Minneapolis. Yeah, well, so you, you can see how, you know, and then this, the whole idea of, oh, and grass won't grow under, there's actually an old common, you know, curse that people would have, you know, that would be put upon your grave and things like that. So I don't know how it got to the point where it is now, but like I said, there are anti-Mormon subreddits that talk about the very fact that, that, you know, that Joseph Smith said that there'd be a shadow on his grave and there isn't one. I mean, where did Joseph Smith say this is the question, right? So you get to this point where you realize, you know, there's, a lot of the times when you hear things like that, if you can't find that source readily available on either, you know, the church's website or on the Joseph Smith Papers website, then there's a pretty good chance that it's not actually that great a source, even if it is a source.
Gerrit And in this case, it seems to be folklore. Now, in the question that he originally asked, you know, the church just sold that building. Well, now, you know, so now it's not, it's no longer in force, right? Or, you know, maybe they baptized him for the dead, so now it doesn't matter that the shadow's not on his grave. It's an interesting thing for Latter-day Saints. We actually have a long history of wanting horrible things to happen to the people that were our persecutors. And-
Gerrit And in this case, it seems to be folklore. Now, in the question that he originally asked, you know, the church just sold that building. Well, now, you know, so now it's not, it's no longer in force, right? Or, you know, maybe they baptized him for the dead, so now it doesn't matter that the shadow's not on his grave. It's an interesting thing for Latter-day Saints. We actually have a long history of wanting horrible things to happen to the people that were our persecutors. And-
Richard What was that? There was a popular book about what happens.
Richard What was that? There was a popular book about what happens.
Gerrit The fate of the persecutors, the Prophet Joseph Smith. And a lot of people love that book, and they love it because it's like, and this person had this horrible thing happen to them. The problem is, the people that I most want to see horrible things happen to them, which sounds not very Christ-like, but also-
Gerrit The fate of the persecutors, the Prophet Joseph Smith. And a lot of people love that book, and they love it because it's like, and this person had this horrible thing happen to them. The problem is, the people that I most want to see horrible things happen to them, which sounds not very Christ-like, but also-
Richard Yeah, sure.
Richard Yeah, sure.
Gerrit Yeah, it's not very Christ-like. Those are people that lived long lives. I mean, look, William Law is the one who put together the Nauvoo Expositor. He's a member of the First Presidency who apostatizes and is directly responsible for the actions that lead to Joseph Smith dying. He dies an old man, right? So once people start making the argument of, and this person is going to suffer, oh, will they suffer? Why are we only having the minor people suffer? You know, it's not gonna be William Law, it's not gonna be John C. Bennett, it's not gonna be Philastus Hurlbut, but he'll live to a nice old age, won't be Eber Howe, you know, it'll be just some minor person like, oh yeah, he was one of the people that helped find guns for the people who were at Carthage who shot him. What about the people who actually shot him at Carthage?
Gerrit Yeah, it's not very Christ-like. Those are people that lived long lives. I mean, look, William Law is the one who put together the Nauvoo Expositor. He's a member of the First Presidency who apostatizes and is directly responsible for the actions that lead to Joseph Smith dying. He dies an old man, right? So once people start making the argument of, and this person is going to suffer, oh, will they suffer? Why are we only having the minor people suffer? You know, it's not gonna be William Law, it's not gonna be John C. Bennett, it's not gonna be Philastus Hurlbut, but he'll live to a nice old age, won't be Eber Howe, you know, it'll be just some minor person like, oh yeah, he was one of the people that helped find guns for the people who were at Carthage who shot him. What about the people who actually shot him at Carthage?
Richard Oh no, no, no, they lived long happy lives.
Richard Oh no, no, no, they lived long happy lives.
Gerrit Happy lives, lived to the fullest extent, so happy all the time. There's also, and like you said, this is all clouded by the fact that even today, anti-Mormons want to accuse Joseph Smith of ordering the murder of Lilburn Boggs. Now, in point of fact, they're going to arrest Rockwell and keep him in jail for nearly a year, and then he isn't convicted. He's able to get away, right? And then that leads to that famous story of him showing up. He actually shows up in Nauvoo on Christmas, during the Christmas party. He comes to the door, and he's all ragged. It's almost like he'd been in a Missouri prison for a year. And at first, the guards guarding the door assume he is a Missourian because of his dress and manners, and that he's a drunk Missourian trying to break in. But in fact, it's Porter Rockwell, right?
Gerrit Happy lives, lived to the fullest extent, so happy all the time. There's also, and like you said, this is all clouded by the fact that even today, anti-Mormons want to accuse Joseph Smith of ordering the murder of Lilburn Boggs. Now, in point of fact, they're going to arrest Rockwell and keep him in jail for nearly a year, and then he isn't convicted. He's able to get away, right? And then that leads to that famous story of him showing up. He actually shows up in Nauvoo on Christmas, during the Christmas party. He comes to the door, and he's all ragged. It's almost like he'd been in a Missouri prison for a year. And at first, the guards guarding the door assume he is a Missourian because of his dress and manners, and that he's a drunk Missourian trying to break in. But in fact, it's Porter Rockwell, right?
Gerrit Well, not only do we not have good evidence of Joseph Smith saying, oh, yeah, yeah, I prophesied that he's gonna die early and that there's gonna be a shadow that casts over his grave and grass will never grow there and on and on and on. We actually kind of have the opposite. We have it recorded in the manuscript history of the church. Part of what Joseph gave in a talk, and he's speaking about what happened when he was at Dixon, Illinois, was when these Missouri, I don't know what you call them, bounty hunters. They are claimed to be lawmen from Missouri, but they are there to take Joseph back down to be tried and likely executed for the attempted murder of Boggs when the evidence that they have, I mean, legitimately, they find the pistol on the ground.
Gerrit Well, not only do we not have good evidence of Joseph Smith saying, oh, yeah, yeah, I prophesied that he's gonna die early and that there's gonna be a shadow that casts over his grave and grass will never grow there and on and on and on. We actually kind of have the opposite. We have it recorded in the manuscript history of the church. Part of what Joseph gave in a talk, and he's speaking about what happened when he was at Dixon, Illinois, was when these Missouri, I don't know what you call them, bounty hunters. They are claimed to be lawmen from Missouri, but they are there to take Joseph back down to be tried and likely executed for the attempted murder of Boggs when the evidence that they have, I mean, legitimately, they find the pistol on the ground.
Gerrit They're like, oh yeah, that pistol's actually from this guy's shop. And then they say, oh yeah, you know who I think thought that that shop, that pistol in that shop was good, Porter Rockwell. And that it's like a hearsay on top of the hearsay on top of it. But I mean, look, I mean, could Porter Rockwell have attempted to murder him? Look, it's entirely possible. It's not very likely, and it's certainly more unlikely that Joseph Smith is ordering him to do it. At any rate, when he is captured by these guys and the people intervene, this is what Joseph says reflecting back on it. The people of Dixon were ready to take me from my persecutors, and I could have killed them, not withstanding their pistols. But I had no disposition to kill any man, though my worst enemy, not even Boggs. In fact, he would have more hell to live in reflection of his past crimes than to die.
Gerrit They're like, oh yeah, that pistol's actually from this guy's shop. And then they say, oh yeah, you know who I think thought that that shop, that pistol in that shop was good, Porter Rockwell. And that it's like a hearsay on top of the hearsay on top of it. But I mean, look, I mean, could Porter Rockwell have attempted to murder him? Look, it's entirely possible. It's not very likely, and it's certainly more unlikely that Joseph Smith is ordering him to do it. At any rate, when he is captured by these guys and the people intervene, this is what Joseph says reflecting back on it. The people of Dixon were ready to take me from my persecutors, and I could have killed them, not withstanding their pistols. But I had no disposition to kill any man, though my worst enemy, not even Boggs. In fact, he would have more hell to live in reflection of his past crimes than to die.
Gerrit So not only do you not have Joseph saying, oh yeah, he's gonna die an early horrible nasty death, and there's gonna be a church built to put a shadow on his grave. The one place where we do have a good Joseph Smith source talking about Boggs and Boggs' life is that Joseph wants him to live so that for the rest of his life, he can reflect on the fact that thousands of people were driven from his state and dozens of people were murdered because of him. I don't know how much reflecting Boggs was doing, honestly. It seems like not a lot. I will say, though, this is, talk about getting into the weeds.
Gerrit So not only do you not have Joseph saying, oh yeah, he's gonna die an early horrible nasty death, and there's gonna be a church built to put a shadow on his grave. The one place where we do have a good Joseph Smith source talking about Boggs and Boggs' life is that Joseph wants him to live so that for the rest of his life, he can reflect on the fact that thousands of people were driven from his state and dozens of people were murdered because of him. I don't know how much reflecting Boggs was doing, honestly. It seems like not a lot. I will say, though, this is, talk about getting into the weeds.
Richard Yeah, well, we're here.
Richard Yeah, well, we're here.
Gerrit You mean, because we're pushing?
Gerrit You mean, because we're pushing?
Richard We're doing a second episode of something that's already in the weeds from what it was we were doing before, so I feel this is on point with where we need to be.
Richard We're doing a second episode of something that's already in the weeds from what it was we were doing before, so I feel this is on point with where we need to be.
Gerrit I feel like maybe we should call these two episodes into the weeds, into the thick of it.
Gerrit I feel like maybe we should call these two episodes into the weeds, into the thick of it.
Richard Into the thick of it.
Gerrit Into the thick of it.
Richard Into the thick of it.
Gerrit Into the thick of it.
Richard With Lilburn Boggs.
Richard With Lilburn Boggs.
Gerrit Into the thick of it, you know what? That's what we're gonna call it. And then we'll come back to apostles and apostates some other time.
Gerrit Into the thick of it, you know what? That's what we're gonna call it. And then we'll come back to apostles and apostates some other time.
Richard I'll make a note.
Richard I'll make a note.
Gerrit Although we did talk about a lot of apostates. We just didn't talk about them enough. Anyway, Boggs, as the article said, he was a member of the Constitutional Convention. Well, he is part of another kind of tragic episode in Latter-day Saint history. The initial governor of California is another Missourian. Apparently, everyone who lives in Missouri moved to California. And much like the Wisconsin Golden Investigator, all of them also apparently moved to California because there weren't any in Wisconsin. But he's another person who actually is part of some of Joseph Smith's trials in Missouri, and that's Peter Hardeman Burnett. He becomes the first governor of California.
Gerrit Although we did talk about a lot of apostates. We just didn't talk about them enough. Anyway, Boggs, as the article said, he was a member of the Constitutional Convention. Well, he is part of another kind of tragic episode in Latter-day Saint history. The initial governor of California is another Missourian. Apparently, everyone who lives in Missouri moved to California. And much like the Wisconsin Golden Investigator, all of them also apparently moved to California because there weren't any in Wisconsin. But he's another person who actually is part of some of Joseph Smith's trials in Missouri, and that's Peter Hardeman Burnett. He becomes the first governor of California.
Gerrit Well, there was a plan that was hatched by the Zachary Taylor administration, because Zachary Taylor was president in the midst of this huge controversy over the results of the Mexican War. Now, we're gonna spend so much time on this, on the premium content two or three years from now, when we get to the Mexican War, right?
Gerrit Well, there was a plan that was hatched by the Zachary Taylor administration, because Zachary Taylor was president in the midst of this huge controversy over the results of the Mexican War. Now, we're gonna spend so much time on this, on the premium content two or three years from now, when we get to the Mexican War, right?
Richard Yes, which kind of goes to Anthony's point of not quite finding enough value to pay for it.
Richard Yes, which kind of goes to Anthony's point of not quite finding enough value to pay for it.
Gerrit I feel like Anthony needs to buy it for a month and then tell us if it's not worth it, which he seems to be more than willing to tell us that it's not worth it.
Gerrit I feel like Anthony needs to buy it for a month and then tell us if it's not worth it, which he seems to be more than willing to tell us that it's not worth it.
Richard Well, he needs to buy it for a month, but accidentally click the payment for the year.
Richard Well, he needs to buy it for a month, but accidentally click the payment for the year.
Gerrit Right. Anthony, what we need from you is to accidentally purchase a year subscription to the premium content. What we'll learn anyway when we get to that is one of the major things that actually leads to the American Civil War. I mean, of course, slavery is the issue, but there was slavery in the United States for since the colonial time, since the early 1600s, you have slaves in the American colonies. So why are you going to war over it in 1861? Well, the spark that lights that fuse is actually the monumental victory of the Americans over the Mexicans in the Mexican War. I mean, nearly a third of the existing United States is added to the country by the Mexican Session and our personal favorite, one of the things we like to drop, Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. That's how all that area becomes part of the United States.
Gerrit Right. Anthony, what we need from you is to accidentally purchase a year subscription to the premium content. What we'll learn anyway when we get to that is one of the major things that actually leads to the American Civil War. I mean, of course, slavery is the issue, but there was slavery in the United States for since the colonial time, since the early 1600s, you have slaves in the American colonies. So why are you going to war over it in 1861? Well, the spark that lights that fuse is actually the monumental victory of the Americans over the Mexicans in the Mexican War. I mean, nearly a third of the existing United States is added to the country by the Mexican Session and our personal favorite, one of the things we like to drop, Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. That's how all that area becomes part of the United States.
Gerrit Well, the argument over slavery, it actually revolves around, not, I mean, look, there's abolitionists in the North who certainly want slavery ended immediately, but the real arguments leading up to the Civil War are not about slavery in general, it's about whether or not these new territories that had just been captured from Mexico, whether or not they should be open to the settlement of slaves. And that's because they basically had already worked out all of the other land, all of the Louisiana Purchase Area, that was all to be, you know, after Missouri, after the Missouri Compromise, all of that Louisiana Purchase Area, that was to be free forever. Well, there wasn't any other land for slavery to expand to because we'd already settled it by law. And then suddenly, you have all of the areas of California, the state, you know, today, as well as Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, part of half of Colorado, part of Wyoming, Nevada, all of that comes into the Union as territory.
Gerrit Well, the argument over slavery, it actually revolves around, not, I mean, look, there's abolitionists in the North who certainly want slavery ended immediately, but the real arguments leading up to the Civil War are not about slavery in general, it's about whether or not these new territories that had just been captured from Mexico, whether or not they should be open to the settlement of slaves. And that's because they basically had already worked out all of the other land, all of the Louisiana Purchase Area, that was all to be, you know, after Missouri, after the Missouri Compromise, all of that Louisiana Purchase Area, that was to be free forever. Well, there wasn't any other land for slavery to expand to because we'd already settled it by law. And then suddenly, you have all of the areas of California, the state, you know, today, as well as Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, part of half of Colorado, part of Wyoming, Nevada, all of that comes into the Union as territory.
Gerrit Now, they're not broken up into those states yet, but all of that that would become those states. And you have this whole new argument. Are these territories open to settlement with people who have slaves? And Latter-day Saints are gonna get caught up in this argument because we are living in one of those areas. We moved to Mexico, we left the country, and then the borders of the country caught us as soon as we ran away from them. And so it becomes a question again. So Zachary Taylor has this ingenious plan. Now, Zachary Taylor owns slaves. He is a slave owner, lives in Louisiana. He is not a non-slave holder. He has no problem with the expansion of slavery, but he's first and foremost a nationalist. He's the great general, the hero of Buena Vista, the great general of the Mexican War. He doesn't think that it's worth splitting the nation apart to argue of whether or not there should be slavery in somewhere like Arizona.
Gerrit Now, they're not broken up into those states yet, but all of that that would become those states. And you have this whole new argument. Are these territories open to settlement with people who have slaves? And Latter-day Saints are gonna get caught up in this argument because we are living in one of those areas. We moved to Mexico, we left the country, and then the borders of the country caught us as soon as we ran away from them. And so it becomes a question again. So Zachary Taylor has this ingenious plan. Now, Zachary Taylor owns slaves. He is a slave owner, lives in Louisiana. He is not a non-slave holder. He has no problem with the expansion of slavery, but he's first and foremost a nationalist. He's the great general, the hero of Buena Vista, the great general of the Mexican War. He doesn't think that it's worth splitting the nation apart to argue of whether or not there should be slavery in somewhere like Arizona.
Gerrit Like he'd been there and he was like, we're not growing anything here. There's no water. Unless you're trying to harvest cacti, there's nothing that's gonna grow. Now, in point of fact, he was totally wrong, as we now have a legion of Arizona listeners sending us emails right now. Before you hit send on the angrily typed email, Taylor completely misjudged it. He had no conception of how easily they could irrigate, and that, of course, Arizona becomes one of the great agricultural states in the Union. It probably wouldn't have done that back then, because you needed much more modern irrigation and pumping techniques. But at any rate, the reason why it's an issue is you have this vast area that are going to become territories of the United States. Why is that a problem? Because territories are under the purview of the Congress.
Gerrit Like he'd been there and he was like, we're not growing anything here. There's no water. Unless you're trying to harvest cacti, there's nothing that's gonna grow. Now, in point of fact, he was totally wrong, as we now have a legion of Arizona listeners sending us emails right now. Before you hit send on the angrily typed email, Taylor completely misjudged it. He had no conception of how easily they could irrigate, and that, of course, Arizona becomes one of the great agricultural states in the Union. It probably wouldn't have done that back then, because you needed much more modern irrigation and pumping techniques. But at any rate, the reason why it's an issue is you have this vast area that are going to become territories of the United States. Why is that a problem? Because territories are under the purview of the Congress.
Gerrit The United States Congress gets to decide whether or not they are free or slave. And it's the argument of whether or not the Congress decides whether or not they're free or slave that is leading to all of this animosity and anger. So Taylor's idea is what if we bypassed the territorial stage altogether? What if we took all of what is today Nevada, Arizona, well, part of Arizona and Utah and part of Colorado, part of Wyoming, what if we took all of that and we made one gigantic California? We made one gigantic state out of it. And then we made another gigantic state out of what, you know, the New Mexico, Arizona area. If they just came in as states, then the Congress couldn't argue about whether or not they should be free or slave territories because everyone acknowledges that states have the right to choose whether they're free or slave.
Gerrit The United States Congress gets to decide whether or not they are free or slave. And it's the argument of whether or not the Congress decides whether or not they're free or slave that is leading to all of this animosity and anger. So Taylor's idea is what if we bypassed the territorial stage altogether? What if we took all of what is today Nevada, Arizona, well, part of Arizona and Utah and part of Colorado, part of Wyoming, what if we took all of that and we made one gigantic California? We made one gigantic state out of it. And then we made another gigantic state out of what, you know, the New Mexico, Arizona area. If they just came in as states, then the Congress couldn't argue about whether or not they should be free or slave territories because everyone acknowledges that states have the right to choose whether they're free or slave.
Gerrit Now the problem, of course, is in order to get people on board with this, you need people in the two major population centers of those territories to agree to it. So Taylor dispatches a secret emissary. Isn't this fun?
Gerrit Now the problem, of course, is in order to get people on board with this, you need people in the two major population centers of those territories to agree to it. So Taylor dispatches a secret emissary. Isn't this fun?
Richard This is fun. And by secret, do you mean John C. Bennett's secret? Or does he tell a bunch of people in the air salon? By the way, we do get great ideas for T-shirts. I think we're eventually going to be doing this where we get T-shirt designs and ideas. We need a T-shirt of John C. Bennett with his head and one of those 1950 hair dryers.
Richard This is fun. And by secret, do you mean John C. Bennett's secret? Or does he tell a bunch of people in the air salon? By the way, we do get great ideas for T-shirts. I think we're eventually going to be doing this where we get T-shirt designs and ideas. We need a T-shirt of John C. Bennett with his head and one of those 1950 hair dryers.
Gerrit Yeah, where he says, I'll tell you what Porter Rockwell told me. I'll tell you that.
Gerrit Yeah, where he says, I'll tell you what Porter Rockwell told me. I'll tell you that.
Richard But it is a secret.
Richard But it is a secret.
Gerrit Yeah, oh, it's an actual secret. Yeah, because he's trying to affect this, making it look like the federal government isn't affecting it. So what he wants is the California constant, because California is already, you know, the part of California that's a state today is already urging a state convention because it's right after the huge gold rush. So there's over 100,000 people in the area on the west coast of California. But technically, in that territory, there's another large population center, and that is Salt Lake, where all the Latter-day Saints have gone. So Taylor sends this secret emissary to go meet with the Mormons to see if they would be willing to go along with being part of this mega California, to make essentially almost all of the territory taken from Mexico in the war one giant state called California.
Gerrit Yeah, oh, it's an actual secret. Yeah, because he's trying to affect this, making it look like the federal government isn't affecting it. So what he wants is the California constant, because California is already, you know, the part of California that's a state today is already urging a state convention because it's right after the huge gold rush. So there's over 100,000 people in the area on the west coast of California. But technically, in that territory, there's another large population center, and that is Salt Lake, where all the Latter-day Saints have gone. So Taylor sends this secret emissary to go meet with the Mormons to see if they would be willing to go along with being part of this mega California, to make essentially almost all of the territory taken from Mexico in the war one giant state called California.
Gerrit And if we went along with it, then he could put it into practice. And the emissary says, you know, look, read the arguments that are going on in Congress right now. This could tear our nation apart. Meets with Brigham Young, and Brigham Young says, wow, you're asking a lot. We just got free of being a part of the United States. You're asking us to join ourselves to California. And Brigham Young said, okay, we'll do it. Again, the terribly traitorous Brigham Young, right, saying, okay, we'll do it. And sends emissaries to California to go participate in their constitutional convention. Now, Taylor had sent another emissary to the other part of what is today California to try to tell them on the same thing, hey, we need to make this one giant state, this whole area one giant state. Well, that emissary landed on the ground, realized how much impetus there was to create their own state government, and instead of waiting to find out what the other emissary to the Mormons said, immediately pushed forward plans for a state convention, hoping that they would pick him as the senator.
Gerrit And if we went along with it, then he could put it into practice. And the emissary says, you know, look, read the arguments that are going on in Congress right now. This could tear our nation apart. Meets with Brigham Young, and Brigham Young says, wow, you're asking a lot. We just got free of being a part of the United States. You're asking us to join ourselves to California. And Brigham Young said, okay, we'll do it. Again, the terribly traitorous Brigham Young, right, saying, okay, we'll do it. And sends emissaries to California to go participate in their constitutional convention. Now, Taylor had sent another emissary to the other part of what is today California to try to tell them on the same thing, hey, we need to make this one giant state, this whole area one giant state. Well, that emissary landed on the ground, realized how much impetus there was to create their own state government, and instead of waiting to find out what the other emissary to the Mormons said, immediately pushed forward plans for a state convention, hoping that they would pick him as the senator.
Gerrit So he just totally, essentially, threw Taylor's plans out the window for his own, again, I know it's hard to believe that a politician would dishonorably do something in order to advance their own political career. But this is the 19th century, where a politician is willing to lie, where they're willing to completely go against other agreements and arrangements they've already made in order to advance their political career. It's hard to look at history sometimes. It's difficult. Well, that constitutional convention, several of the people that are in it, like Lilburn Boggs and Peter Burnett, who ends up being the president, what do you think they think about the idea of including all of the Mormons in their state? What do you think they think of that?
Gerrit So he just totally, essentially, threw Taylor's plans out the window for his own, again, I know it's hard to believe that a politician would dishonorably do something in order to advance their own political career. But this is the 19th century, where a politician is willing to lie, where they're willing to completely go against other agreements and arrangements they've already made in order to advance their political career. It's hard to look at history sometimes. It's difficult. Well, that constitutional convention, several of the people that are in it, like Lilburn Boggs and Peter Burnett, who ends up being the president, what do you think they think about the idea of including all of the Mormons in their state? What do you think they think of that?
Richard I think they were against it.
Richard I think they were against it.
Gerrit Yeah, well, here's the thing. They create their constitutional convention and then they elect all of their, it's a provisional election. You elect, this is who our governor will be if Congress approves our constitution. This is who our senators will be if Congress approves our constitution. This is who our congressmen will be, right? So they're essentially like shadow senators and shadow governors. They aren't actual governors yet, but they will be if Congress approves their state petition. Well, these people have already had their election because they didn't wait for the Utah emissary. So now the Mormons go meet with the governor who will be the governor and they have to convince him, Peter Burnett, hey, I know you've already been elected and you're going to be a governor and it's what you already wanted to be. We need you to rescind that, recall the constitutional convention so that we can all become a giant state because that's what Zachary Taylor wanted anyway.
Gerrit Yeah, well, here's the thing. They create their constitutional convention and then they elect all of their, it's a provisional election. You elect, this is who our governor will be if Congress approves our constitution. This is who our senators will be if Congress approves our constitution. This is who our congressmen will be, right? So they're essentially like shadow senators and shadow governors. They aren't actual governors yet, but they will be if Congress approves their state petition. Well, these people have already had their election because they didn't wait for the Utah emissary. So now the Mormons go meet with the governor who will be the governor and they have to convince him, Peter Burnett, hey, I know you've already been elected and you're going to be a governor and it's what you already wanted to be. We need you to rescind that, recall the constitutional convention so that we can all become a giant state because that's what Zachary Taylor wanted anyway.
Gerrit Surprisingly, the people who have already been elected don't want to give up the fact that they've been elected, especially given the fact that a bunch of the new voters will be people who know that they're from Missouri and aren't terribly happy about them. So they don't redo the convention and in fact, California comes in with the state boundaries that it has now, all part of the Compromise of 1850, which again, you can learn more of, maybe on this podcast someday.
Gerrit Surprisingly, the people who have already been elected don't want to give up the fact that they've been elected, especially given the fact that a bunch of the new voters will be people who know that they're from Missouri and aren't terribly happy about them. So they don't redo the convention and in fact, California comes in with the state boundaries that it has now, all part of the Compromise of 1850, which again, you can learn more of, maybe on this podcast someday.
Richard We've been talking about the Stamp Act on the premium side for about three months.
Richard We've been talking about the Stamp Act on the premium side for about three months.
Gerrit I think we're at the towns and duties.
Gerrit I think we're at the towns and duties.
Richard Oh yeah, you're right.
Richard Oh yeah, you're right.
Gerrit We're rapidly approaching the Boston Tea Party. We're thinking about it.
Gerrit We're rapidly approaching the Boston Tea Party. We're thinking about it.
Richard That's right. So yes, the Compromise of 1850 is a bit out.
Richard That's right. So yes, the Compromise of 1850 is a bit out.
Gerrit It's a bit outside. Anyway, we don't have record of what Boggs is saying about this in these meetings, but obviously he's not exactly a huge fan of bringing the entire Mormon community back into his state. And of course, so the whole thing falls apart. And then you do have the arguments over the territories that they didn't want to have. And I'm not saying it would have prevented the coming of the American Civil War, but I am saying it's a little aspect, a little known aspect of Latter-day Saint history that we were part of this attempted solution. When it comes to these kinds of folklore things, and we get these kinds of questions quite a bit, you know, there are people who say things like, oh, my mission president told me that he was told by somebody that absolutely this is what happened. You know, that Boggs, you know, that Joseph prophesied that the church would overshadow his grave and grass would never grow on it and he'd die an early death, you know, all that kind of stuff.
Gerrit It's a bit outside. Anyway, we don't have record of what Boggs is saying about this in these meetings, but obviously he's not exactly a huge fan of bringing the entire Mormon community back into his state. And of course, so the whole thing falls apart. And then you do have the arguments over the territories that they didn't want to have. And I'm not saying it would have prevented the coming of the American Civil War, but I am saying it's a little aspect, a little known aspect of Latter-day Saint history that we were part of this attempted solution. When it comes to these kinds of folklore things, and we get these kinds of questions quite a bit, you know, there are people who say things like, oh, my mission president told me that he was told by somebody that absolutely this is what happened. You know, that Boggs, you know, that Joseph prophesied that the church would overshadow his grave and grass would never grow on it and he'd die an early death, you know, all that kind of stuff.
Gerrit We always, it's always good to just take a pause. And again, I know those kinds of things, they're almost like proofs, right? So we like them. So we like to say, you know, do we know that this is exactly the floorboard that Joseph Smith walked across, or has this been a replacement? I mean, that kind of makes us feel like we're closer to the events. And then we're always looking for secular proofs of the prophetic mission of Joseph Smith. At the same time, it's important to remember that it's only through the Holy Spirit that you can know that Joseph Smith's a prophet. It's cool to learn tidbits and facts. It's cool to learn all about the succession if we ever decide to actually talk about it. But the reality is the only way you can know the truth about religious things is through the Holy Spirit. And we can learn things that help make our testimony stronger, that help us understand how things happen in the past. The entire point of this podcast is to help try to answer questions and help people strengthen their testimonies as they learn about things of the past.
Gerrit We always, it's always good to just take a pause. And again, I know those kinds of things, they're almost like proofs, right? So we like them. So we like to say, you know, do we know that this is exactly the floorboard that Joseph Smith walked across, or has this been a replacement? I mean, that kind of makes us feel like we're closer to the events. And then we're always looking for secular proofs of the prophetic mission of Joseph Smith. At the same time, it's important to remember that it's only through the Holy Spirit that you can know that Joseph Smith's a prophet. It's cool to learn tidbits and facts. It's cool to learn all about the succession if we ever decide to actually talk about it. But the reality is the only way you can know the truth about religious things is through the Holy Spirit. And we can learn things that help make our testimony stronger, that help us understand how things happen in the past. The entire point of this podcast is to help try to answer questions and help people strengthen their testimonies as they learn about things of the past.
Gerrit And not everything in the past is great, but at least you can understand what really happened in the past, as opposed to what someone on some YouTube channel talking about the fourth feather dropping is claiming happened in the past. So I really appreciate the question. I know it took a little while to get to it because we covered some different things like John C. Bennett, who I hate. And I think, do I have to say that every time I say his name?
Gerrit And not everything in the past is great, but at least you can understand what really happened in the past, as opposed to what someone on some YouTube channel talking about the fourth feather dropping is claiming happened in the past. So I really appreciate the question. I know it took a little while to get to it because we covered some different things like John C. Bennett, who I hate. And I think, do I have to say that every time I say his name?
Richard I think moving forward, just saying his name, it's implied that you hate him.
Richard I think moving forward, just saying his name, it's implied that you hate him.
Gerrit It's kind of like, you know, after the second Punic War.
Gerrit It's kind of like, you know, after the second Punic War.
Richard Yes, of course.
Richard Yes, of course.
Gerrit Are you following me?
Richard Yes, of course. Is this the second one?
Gerrit Are you following me?
Richard Yes, of course. Is this the second one?
Gerrit Not to be confused with the first Punic War.
Gerrit Not to be confused with the first Punic War.
Richard So that's where the confusion was.
Richard So that's where the confusion was.
Gerrit Yeah, I feel like Richard immediately jumped to the second Punic War, or the first.
Gerrit Yeah, I feel like Richard immediately jumped to the second Punic War, or the first.
Richard The first. I always jump to the first. I always jump to the first Punic War.
Richard The first. I always jump to the first. I always jump to the first Punic War.
Gerrit I, you know, Hamilcar Barca is one of your heroes, I think.
Gerrit I, you know, Hamilcar Barca is one of your heroes, I think.
Richard He is.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard He is.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard See, I thought that you were going to go to the third Punic War, but I don't know. You upset me a little bit. I thought perhaps this was going somewhere toward the destruction, the sacking of Carthage, the destruction of Carthage.
Richard See, I thought that you were going to go to the third Punic War, but I don't know. You upset me a little bit. I thought perhaps this was going somewhere toward the destruction, the sacking of Carthage, the destruction of Carthage.
Gerrit Well, it has something to do with Carthage.
Gerrit Well, it has something to do with Carthage.
Richard Okay.
Gerrit Because I was going to say, you know, every time I say John C. Bennett, I'm going to say that I hate him.
Richard Okay.
Gerrit Because I was going to say, you know, every time I say John C. Bennett, I'm going to say that I hate him.
Richard Right.
Richard Right.
Gerrit Right. It reminded me in that moment of Cato the Elder.
Gerrit Right. It reminded me in that moment of Cato the Elder.
Richard Of course.
Richard Of course.
Gerrit You've read a lot of Cato the Elder. He has so much entrepreneurial spirit about him. This Roman senator, Cato the Elder, after the Second Punic War, which is when that's the one with Hannibal, and I don't mean Hannibal Lecter. No, Hannibal the great Carthaginian general. In fact, the term Punic is, you're like, why do you call it the Punic War if it's Rome versus Carthage? It's because that is the Roman derivation of the term Phoenician, and Carthage is a Phoenician colony. So the same Phoenicians that are there in, you're following me?
Gerrit You've read a lot of Cato the Elder. He has so much entrepreneurial spirit about him. This Roman senator, Cato the Elder, after the Second Punic War, which is when that's the one with Hannibal, and I don't mean Hannibal Lecter. No, Hannibal the great Carthaginian general. In fact, the term Punic is, you're like, why do you call it the Punic War if it's Rome versus Carthage? It's because that is the Roman derivation of the term Phoenician, and Carthage is a Phoenician colony. So the same Phoenicians that are there in, you're following me?
Richard Yeah, no, this is actually, we've received several emails about this.
Richard Yeah, no, this is actually, we've received several emails about this.
Gerrit Several emails about the Punic Wars.
Gerrit Several emails about the Punic Wars.
Richard Well, the Third Punic War and the First Punic War, but I feel like the Second Punic War helps to-
Richard Well, the Third Punic War and the First Punic War, but I feel like the Second Punic War helps to-
Gerrit That was where we needed to help. We needed to help the listener. Anyway, after the Second Punic War, Carthage loses nearly almost all of its overseas colonies, and it's really just reduced to this kind of rump state in North Africa. Carthage is in what is today Tunisia, right? And Cato the Elder, every single time he gave a speech, he would end every speech with, and furthermore, I believe Carthage should be destroyed. So he just kept pushing for the actual destruction of Carthage, rather than just Carthage in this kind of reduced, humiliated state. And eventually, as you well know, because you were confusing the Third Punic War, they will go and destroy Carthage, and guess who destroys Carthage?
Gerrit That was where we needed to help. We needed to help the listener. Anyway, after the Second Punic War, Carthage loses nearly almost all of its overseas colonies, and it's really just reduced to this kind of rump state in North Africa. Carthage is in what is today Tunisia, right? And Cato the Elder, every single time he gave a speech, he would end every speech with, and furthermore, I believe Carthage should be destroyed. So he just kept pushing for the actual destruction of Carthage, rather than just Carthage in this kind of reduced, humiliated state. And eventually, as you well know, because you were confusing the Third Punic War, they will go and destroy Carthage, and guess who destroys Carthage?
Richard Scipio.
Richard Scipio.
Gerrit Scipio Africanus. That's how he gets the name Africanus, because he destroys Carthage. And I've always had a tender spot in my heart for the town of Scipio in Utah.
Gerrit Scipio Africanus. That's how he gets the name Africanus, because he destroys Carthage. And I've always had a tender spot in my heart for the town of Scipio in Utah.
Richard It makes me smile every time I drive by.
Richard It makes me smile every time I drive by.
Gerrit Because I don't know that they named the town Scipio because Scipio destroyed Carthage.
Gerrit Because I don't know that they named the town Scipio because Scipio destroyed Carthage.
Richard I kind of feel like they knew.
Richard I kind of feel like they knew.
Gerrit It's folklore that I don't want to find out. I want to believe that they named the town that because Scipio was the destroyer of Carthage and therefore Carthage must be destroyed. Anyway, thank you so much for joining us this week and we will possibly get back on track with Apostles and Apostates Neck Week, but we don't know, did I just say neck week?
Gerrit It's folklore that I don't want to find out. I want to believe that they named the town that because Scipio was the destroyer of Carthage and therefore Carthage must be destroyed. Anyway, thank you so much for joining us this week and we will possibly get back on track with Apostles and Apostates Neck Week, but we don't know, did I just say neck week?
Richard Yep, yep, yep. Well, the end of July here in the Standard of Truth podcast is called Neck Week.
Richard Yep, yep, yep. Well, the end of July here in the Standard of Truth podcast is called Neck Week.
Gerrit Well, it's because there's so many potato salads. Your neck is going to get bigger. Thank you so much. We'll join you. I hope you can join us.
Gerrit Well, it's because there's so many potato salads. Your neck is going to get bigger. Thank you so much. We'll join you. I hope you can join us.
Richard We hope that Gerrit recovers from his stroke and the burnt toast that he's smelling right now. Thank you so much for joining us.
Richard We hope that Gerrit recovers from his stroke and the burnt toast that he's smelling right now. Thank you so much for joining us.
Gerrit Thank you again.
Gerrit Thank you again.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.
Quote board
Make a share card from any lineBecause people in Wisconsin are really, really, really nice until you try to talk to them about God.
Well, that's our marketing campaign. Stop listening to this right now.
We don't like to give people what they want. We like to give them what they need. And what they need is us not answering their question.
So here's the problem, though, is that your evidence that he's lying is him saying that he's lying, which may very well be evidence that he wasn't lying.
Well, that's the funny part about affidavits is that you realize whether an affidavit is sworn or not, it doesn't prove literally anything in the affidavit.
I always find it best when you're attacking a religion for being false to make up things about what that religion said and then prove that it never happened.
but look, it's just, it's sound practice that whenever someone says Joseph Smith said, you should be able to find where Joseph Smith said it, especially with the Joseph Smith Papers website.
But the reality is the only way you can know the truth about religious things is through the Holy Spirit.
I think moving forward, just saying his name, it's implied that you hate him.
Source shelf
13 sources cited on air · verses link to the scriptures, Joseph Smith’s documents to the Joseph Smith Papersother
Truman G. Madsen, lecture series on the Prophet Joseph Smith
Anthony says Madsen put the history in context like the hosts, only better, and Richard agrees.
scripture
2 Nephi 12
Richard wonders whether Leah's grandma started the Book of Mormon in the middle of the Isaiah chapters.
scripture
4 Nephi
Where Richard starts reading the Book of Mormon so it ends on a high note with Christ's coming.
record
John C. Bennett, affidavit sworn before Samuel Marshall, Carthage, July 1842
Rockwell said, doctor, you do not know your friends. I'm not your enemy. And I do not wish that you make use of my name in your publications.
Bennett's account of Porter Rockwell confronting him at Mr. Hamilton's house.
record
John C. Bennett affidavit, Rockwell's denial
I never did an act in my life that I was ashamed of and I do not fear to go anywhere that I have ever been for I have done nothing criminal.
Gerrit notes Rockwell never called Joseph Smith "Joe," a sign the quotation is invented.
record
John C. Bennett affidavit, closing lines
Rockwell said that Smith had never given him such orders. Neither was it his intention.
Even in Bennett's own account, Rockwell says Joseph never gave such orders.
record
John H. Lawton, affidavit sworn before Samuel Marshall
heard Rockwell say that he'd been up in Boggs' neighborhood and that if he shot Boggs, they had to prove it.
Hearsay on top of hearsay about the same conversation.
newspaper
George I. Scott, "Shadow of Mormon Chapel Falls on Grave of Governor Boggs," Church News, 1959
Time has given an ironical twist to a trying time in the history of the Church.
Likely origin of the spire folklore; it never claims a prophecy was fulfilled.
newspaper
Church News, 1959, on the Santa Rosa stake tabernacle
On a hill overlooking the graveyard and in view of the former governor's grave is the Santa Rosa steak tabernacle of the Church that he ordered exterminated in Missouri.
Gerrit calls the article's description a minor flex.
book
N. B. Lundwall, comp., The Fate of the Persecutors of the Prophet Joseph Smith
A popular book Gerrit says shows how we want bad things to happen to persecutors; compiler identified, not named on air.
record
Joseph Smith, remarks on his arrest at Dixon, Illinois, in the Manuscript History of the Church
But I had no disposition to kill any man, though my worst enemy, not even Boggs.
The one solid Joseph source on Boggs shows he wanted Boggs to live and reflect.
record
Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo
How the Mexican Cession brought California, Utah and the Southwest into the United States.
other
Cato the Elder's refrain on Carthage
and furthermore, I believe Carthage should be destroyed.
Gerrit compares it to saying he hates John C. Bennett every time. He credits Scipio Africanus with destroying Carthage; it was Scipio Aemilianus (Africanus the Younger) in the Third Punic War.
Episode quiz
Pass to stamp your passportQuestion 1 of 8Score 0
Why did Anthony's investigator have to reschedule his baptism?
Fun with Numbers
This episode, counted from its transcript56:46long
11 minbefore the topic starts
13sources read or named
2scripture passages
8different years mentioned
4dollar amounts said
From 1834 to 1959
Every year mentioned in the episode. Tap one to jump to it.
Money said on air
Percentages said on air
Putting numbers to words
All 9,111 words of the automatic transcript, counted against a word list for each theme. It shows how much a theme comes up, not what was said about it. See the lists
What this episode talks about more than usual
- Government and law37 mentions, 4.9 times the show’s usual rate
- Critics and hard questions13 mentions, 3.6 times the show’s usual rate
- Death and the afterlife37 mentions, 2.7 times the show’s usual rate
Names said most
Joseph counts any Joseph.
Joseph 35John C. Bennett 23Jesus Christ 5Nephi 5Brigham Young 4
Signature words
Said often here and in few other episodes.
Boggs 29Rockwell 22emissary 7shadow 11Marshall 8hearsay 7
More from this episode
Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.
Claim check
What critics say, and what the episode foundJoseph Smith prophesied Boggs would die a violent death, that a church would shadow his grave and that no grass would grow on it, and those prophecies failed.
Joseph Smith wanted Boggs dead.
The church's enemies all came to terrible ends.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.
Take it to class
Ready to copy into a lesson or a textWhen someone says "Joseph Smith said," you should be able to find where he said it; the Joseph Smith Papers website makes that easy to check.
A sworn affidavit doesn't prove what's in it; John C. Bennett's affidavits pile hearsay on hearsay, and even his own version has Rockwell saying Joseph never gave such orders.
Joseph's own recorded words about Boggs show no wish for revenge: "I had no disposition to kill any man, though my worst enemy, not even Boggs."
Interesting tidbits are fun, but the only way to know religious truth, including that Joseph Smith was a prophet, is through the Holy Spirit.
Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.
Banter bin
The running jokes, for people who skip aheadWhy I hate John C. Bennett, part 11Apostles and apostates part two becomes another Bennett episode, and from now on hating him is implied by saying his name (1:28, 51:50, 52:14).
We'll never answer your questionAnthony's succession question is skipped before anyone knows what it is, along with the 20-plus succession emails (1:48, 7:44, 10:45).
Tracting in Wisconsin during a Packers gamePeople assumed the elders didn't know when the game was (3:36).
Anthony's premium review"Still looking" for something worth paying for; the fix is to accidentally buy a year (1:58, 37:58).
Rex's elders quorum presidentSurely already gone after the Truman Madsen plug, and probably disappointed again (6:53, 19:15).
Rockwell vs. Bennett, pay-per-viewGerrit's vision of the celestial kingdom, resurrected bodies required (17:51, 18:08).
Steel Magnolias in CarthageBennett under the hair dryer while everyone gossips about the Daughters of Zion; it should be a T-shirt (21:58, 44:00).
The anti-Mormon subredditSomewhere between the ninth ring of Dante and Calvin's hell, with no purgatory (24:01).
Premium history paceMonths on the Stamp Act, now at the Townshend duties, rapidly approaching the Boston Tea Party (49:16).
The Punic Wars and Neck WeekCato, Scipio and the town of Scipio, Utah, then Gerrit says "neck week" and Richard makes it official (52:18, 55:27, 55:51).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag
Your question could be next week’s episodeQuestions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
Go deeperWhere to read more.
Go deeper
Deep dives the episode points towardJohn C. Bennett's shifting story, from denying any affairs to admitting one with a "fair princess of Nauvoo" (11:46).
Porter Rockwell's year in a Missouri jail and his ragged Christmas return to Nauvoo (32:13).
Zachary Taylor's plan for one giant California and the Compromise of 1850, with Boggs and Peter Burnett in the California convention (36:34, 48:45).
How the Mexican Cession and the fight over slavery in the new territories helped light the fuse of the Civil War (38:17).
The succession crisis series the hosts keep promising (7:44, 10:38).
SOT Litner · S3E28.