We can only get 10 minutes in before we digress.
Standard of Truth · Season 3 · Episode 29 · 1:04:09
Joseph Smith's Public Rebuke of Brigham Young
The beloved story of Joseph rebuking Brigham in public traces back to Hugh B. Brown's family, passed to Truman Madsen and first printed in a 1976 New Era tribute.
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The question ·
Apparently, Joseph Smith once dressed down Brigham Young publicly for something that he did not do. Brigham's humble response was, quote, Joseph, what will you have me do? So, is there a documented occurrence of this
Carl (listener)
Carl, the polite Canadian who once slipped on the ice, writes back from Alberta to ask whether Joseph Smith really rebuked Brigham Young in public and Brigham humbly answered, "What will you have me do?" Gerrit loves the story and Brigham's devotion to Joseph, but traces it carefully: it shows up in Truman Madsen's famous lectures, and earlier in Madsen's 1976 New Era tribute to Hugh B. Brown, whose wife Zina was Brigham's granddaughter. Madsen called it family lore and hedged it many times, and no one at the time mentions it, though Gerrit says absence of evidence can't prove it didn't happen. He closes with what is documented: Brigham's words at the October 1844 conference that it is the test of fellowship to believe Joseph lived and died a prophet, and his promise in the Council of Fifty that no one would speak against Joseph in his presence.
Who comes upBrigham YoungJoseph SmithTruman G. MadsenHugh B. BrownZina Card BrownSidney Rigdon
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Still not Apostles and Apostates
Richard promises, once again, not to get to part two.
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508 moments · tap a time to play from thereIntro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.
Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. In this week's episode, we continue to not do part two of Apostles and Apostates.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. In this week's episode, we continue to not do part two of Apostles and Apostates.
Gerrit I think that that's what the listeners cry out for. They cry out for us to not actually do anything we say we're going to do.
Gerrit I think that that's what the listeners cry out for. They cry out for us to not actually do anything we say we're going to do.
Richard We were talking about something really interesting. You were going somewhere with it, and now you're three weeks in a row not talking about it. You're right. We start off with a listener e-mail. Dear Sirs, this comes to us all the way from the Great North. The frozen North. The Great North. This comes to us from a previous e-mailer that didn't have a question before, but suffered a serious blow to the head as he fell on ice in what I can only assume was middle of July.
Richard We were talking about something really interesting. You were going somewhere with it, and now you're three weeks in a row not talking about it. You're right. We start off with a listener e-mail. Dear Sirs, this comes to us all the way from the Great North. The frozen North. The Great North. This comes to us from a previous e-mailer that didn't have a question before, but suffered a serious blow to the head as he fell on ice in what I can only assume was middle of July.
Gerrit Yeah. It was probably August 1st and it was an ice storm in Canada.
Gerrit Yeah. It was probably August 1st and it was an ice storm in Canada.
Richard So he has come back with a question and we felt, well, we assumed that Carl does not have much time with us, and so we want to get right to his question. Not much time with us because- Because he's going to die because of internal bleeding.
Richard So he has come back with a question and we felt, well, we assumed that Carl does not have much time with us, and so we want to get right to his question. Not much time with us because- Because he's going to die because of internal bleeding.
Gerrit Because of his accident.
Gerrit Because of his accident.
Richard Because of his head injury. So we wanted to get right to it. We'll return to not talking about apostles and apostates next week. Dear Sirs, I am addressing you thusly. By the way, so there are a lot of yous that are in places that shouldn't have yous, as he is trying to use the King's English.
Richard Because of his head injury. So we wanted to get right to it. We'll return to not talking about apostles and apostates next week. Dear Sirs, I am addressing you thusly. By the way, so there are a lot of yous that are in places that shouldn't have yous, as he is trying to use the King's English.
Gerrit He's using the proper King's English, which if you've ever seen a British person write the word color, there's like just a you just in there. The Americans, we shorten it down. Yeah.
Gerrit He's using the proper King's English, which if you've ever seen a British person write the word color, there's like just a you just in there. The Americans, we shorten it down. Yeah.
Richard Look, we got things happening here, Carl. We don't have time for all your yous. Yeah.
Richard Look, we got things happening here, Carl. We don't have time for all your yous. Yeah.
Gerrit Throw another you in there.
Gerrit Throw another you in there.
Richard Dear sirs, I'm addressing you thusly as I am never quite sure of your current designations. Well, first of all, Carl, the dissertation is going slowly. Doctor Professor, Associate Professor, plus being an overly polite Canadian, I don't want to use the Dirkmaat line twice.
Richard Dear sirs, I'm addressing you thusly as I am never quite sure of your current designations. Well, first of all, Carl, the dissertation is going slowly. Doctor Professor, Associate Professor, plus being an overly polite Canadian, I don't want to use the Dirkmaat line twice.
Gerrit Thank you.
Richard Thank you so much.
Gerrit Thank you.
Richard Thank you so much.
Gerrit That was for me.
Gerrit That was for me.
Richard Last we spoke, I was enjoying our chilly ten months of winter lying on my back in the middle of a four-lane thoroughfare with several yews there, enjoying a blurred vision of the heavens. You will be pleased to note that we are currently snow-free in Alberta as we are enjoying our ten days of summer while squeezing in the famed Calgary Stampede. By the way, Carl, my goal is, my wife is, you know, we grew up in rural Idaho. She wants to go to the Calgary Stampede more than anything. And so we're going to be take, we're going to go there. If not next summer, the following summer, going up to the Calgary Stampede, we'll hit a Canadian tire outside of Edmonton in a town called LeDuc by some, some rough neck jerseys.
Richard Last we spoke, I was enjoying our chilly ten months of winter lying on my back in the middle of a four-lane thoroughfare with several yews there, enjoying a blurred vision of the heavens. You will be pleased to note that we are currently snow-free in Alberta as we are enjoying our ten days of summer while squeezing in the famed Calgary Stampede. By the way, Carl, my goal is, my wife is, you know, we grew up in rural Idaho. She wants to go to the Calgary Stampede more than anything. And so we're going to be take, we're going to go there. If not next summer, the following summer, going up to the Calgary Stampede, we'll hit a Canadian tire outside of Edmonton in a town called LeDuc by some, some rough neck jerseys.
Gerrit Some of your descendants?
Richard LeDuc Roughnecks is the, is the, is the hockey organization there outside of Edmonton.
Gerrit Some of your descendants?
Richard LeDuc Roughnecks is the, is the, is the hockey organization there outside of Edmonton.
Gerrit I'm, what level of minor league is this? How many A's?
Gerrit I'm, what level of minor league is this? How many A's?
Richard It's there, well, no, so it's, it's kind of their hockey system there. So you have juniors and you have kids.
Richard It's there, well, no, so it's, it's kind of their hockey system there. So you have juniors and you have kids.
Gerrit So when kids are born in Canada, they're immediately put on a hockey team. A semi pro hockey team.
Gerrit So when kids are born in Canada, they're immediately put on a hockey team. A semi pro hockey team.
Richard 100%. Before their mother hugs them, they slide them out on the ice.
Richard 100%. Before their mother hugs them, they slide them out on the ice.
Gerrit So it's like getting on the list for packer tickets.
Gerrit So it's like getting on the list for packer tickets.
Richard Yeah, exactly.
Richard Yeah, exactly.
Gerrit Like, oh, my grandson was just born. I put his name on the list.
Gerrit Like, oh, my grandson was just born. I put his name on the list.
Richard 100%. Anyway, so we'll hit up that Canadian tire, buy some LeDuc Roughneck gear just outside of Edmonton. I know that they're a bitter rival to you.
Richard 100%. Anyway, so we'll hit up that Canadian tire, buy some LeDuc Roughneck gear just outside of Edmonton. I know that they're a bitter rival to you.
Gerrit I believe I said last time, I've driven to Calgary.
Gerrit I believe I said last time, I've driven to Calgary.
Richard Oh, yeah.
Richard Oh, yeah.
Gerrit Yeah. It's a very long drive.
Gerrit Yeah. It's a very long drive.
Intro It is.
Intro It is.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard It's about 12 hours or so from here. Lovely.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard It's about 12 hours or so from here. Lovely.
Intro Lovely.
Intro Lovely.
Richard This time of year?
Gerrit Do you think Rex's elders quorum president is listening at this point?
Richard This time of year?
Gerrit Do you think Rex's elders quorum president is listening at this point?
Richard No. We're going to let Rex's elders quorum president know when he should start listening.
Richard No. We're going to let Rex's elders quorum president know when he should start listening.
Gerrit We should probably find out what his name is. Rex's elders quorum president, if you're listening, we need you to email us and tell us who you are. You know what? I don't even think Rex is active. He doesn't even have an elders quorum president. He's not listening. I feel like Rex has been lying to us for years.
Gerrit We should probably find out what his name is. Rex's elders quorum president, if you're listening, we need you to email us and tell us who you are. You know what? I don't even think Rex is active. He doesn't even have an elders quorum president. He's not listening. I feel like Rex has been lying to us for years.
Richard I don't know, though. It sounded so believable that someone would listen to this, think it's just silly and ridiculous, and then half hour in, you get to some good stuff. So actually, I think it's pretty on point.
Richard I don't know, though. It sounded so believable that someone would listen to this, think it's just silly and ridiculous, and then half hour in, you get to some good stuff. So actually, I think it's pretty on point.
Gerrit Except for the getting to good stuff part, I think it is pretty on point.
Gerrit Except for the getting to good stuff part, I think it is pretty on point.
Richard It's true. Alas, I digress, which is funny. He said that as we also digress.
Richard It's true. Alas, I digress, which is funny. He said that as we also digress.
Gerrit We can only get 10 minutes in before we digress.
Gerrit We can only get 10 minutes in before we digress.
Richard My communication today is to actually forward a query. If you remember the last time, I did not have a question, only advice to post warnings of Northern climates for Northern climates. I believe that you are gaining traction North of Polk's 54-40 or fight. Wow.
Richard My communication today is to actually forward a query. If you remember the last time, I did not have a question, only advice to post warnings of Northern climates for Northern climates. I believe that you are gaining traction North of Polk's 54-40 or fight. Wow.
Gerrit That is an epic drop for this podcast. That is very, very, they're like four of our listeners who got that and me. So five of us.
Gerrit That is an epic drop for this podcast. That is very, very, they're like four of our listeners who got that and me. So five of us.
Richard That's very funny. Here's a little background to frame the question. While studying Come Follow Me, for the coming week, by the way, all of the U's that he, all of the extra U's, he...
Richard That's very funny. Here's a little background to frame the question. While studying Come Follow Me, for the coming week, by the way, all of the U's that he, all of the extra U's, he...
Gerrit This letter would have only been like probably... I'd be done reading it by now, but there's just U's everywhere.
Gerrit This letter would have only been like probably... I'd be done reading it by now, but there's just U's everywhere.
Richard So many U's.
Richard So many U's.
Gerrit Probably a couple A's that he didn't mean to throw in there.
Gerrit Probably a couple A's that he didn't mean to throw in there.
Richard For the coming week, I came across a scripture in Acts 9-6. The Savior asks Saul, Savior misspelled with extra U's, why persecutest thou me? After recovering from astonishment, Saul responds with, what will thou have me do? An awesome question we should probably all contemplate. Good point, Carl. This reminds, this reminded me of something in church history that I have heard a few times, but have never been able to track down. Apparently, Joseph Smith once dressed down Brigham Young publicly for something that he did not do. Brigham's humble response was, quote, Joseph, what will you have me do? So, is there a documented occurrence of this, or will you yet again crush the soul out of all Brigham Young's descendants who like to relate this incident in their quest for filthy lucre, or in your quest for filthy lucre?
Richard For the coming week, I came across a scripture in Acts 9-6. The Savior asks Saul, Savior misspelled with extra U's, why persecutest thou me? After recovering from astonishment, Saul responds with, what will thou have me do? An awesome question we should probably all contemplate. Good point, Carl. This reminds, this reminded me of something in church history that I have heard a few times, but have never been able to track down. Apparently, Joseph Smith once dressed down Brigham Young publicly for something that he did not do. Brigham's humble response was, quote, Joseph, what will you have me do? So, is there a documented occurrence of this, or will you yet again crush the soul out of all Brigham Young's descendants who like to relate this incident in their quest for filthy lucre, or in your quest for filthy lucre?
Gerrit In my quest, yeah.
Gerrit In my quest, yeah.
Richard Yes, yes, not Brigham Young's quest.
Richard Yes, yes, not Brigham Young's quest.
Gerrit They aren't going for filthy lucre, we are.
Gerrit They aren't going for filthy lucre, we are.
Richard We are.
Richard We are.
Gerrit Carl, are you a premium subscriber? If you are, we're not answering this.
Gerrit Carl, are you a premium subscriber? If you are, we're not answering this.
Richard Knowing of your joint, that's with a question mark, sleuthing abilities, I leave this query in your capable hands. Sorry for interrupting your podcast, Carl. PS. I could not finish this correspondence without apologizing at least once as a polite Canadian.
Richard Knowing of your joint, that's with a question mark, sleuthing abilities, I leave this query in your capable hands. Sorry for interrupting your podcast, Carl. PS. I could not finish this correspondence without apologizing at least once as a polite Canadian.
Gerrit Very good. You're representing your nation well.
Gerrit Very good. You're representing your nation well.
Richard Very, very well. I should like to hear something from the Hugh Finley mailbag, F-I-N-A-L-Y mailbag, as he was the first postmaster of Quebec, 1765. I am positive our distant friend from Quebec would appreciate it, because me reading this email comes to you from the Phebe Draper mailbag.
Richard Very, very well. I should like to hear something from the Hugh Finley mailbag, F-I-N-A-L-Y mailbag, as he was the first postmaster of Quebec, 1765. I am positive our distant friend from Quebec would appreciate it, because me reading this email comes to you from the Phebe Draper mailbag.
Gerrit So I'm going to have to take issue first of all.
Gerrit So I'm going to have to take issue first of all.
Richard Okay.
Richard Okay.
Gerrit Right, I mean, 1765, there might be some of your, I don't know, French Canadian fellow citizens.
Gerrit Right, I mean, 1765, there might be some of your, I don't know, French Canadian fellow citizens.
Richard My, yes, Joseph LeDuc is now in Canada for almost 30 years before.
Richard My, yes, Joseph LeDuc is now in Canada for almost 30 years before.
Gerrit But still only owns one acre. So you tell me what he's doing.
Gerrit But still only owns one acre. So you tell me what he's doing.
Richard Well, so he was there for 30 years, never sent a letter.
Richard Well, so he was there for 30 years, never sent a letter.
Gerrit I feel like Joseph LeDuc is, he's not really expanding the talents that he's been given.
Gerrit I feel like Joseph LeDuc is, he's not really expanding the talents that he's been given.
Richard Yeah, he hit him under a bushel, is the master was, he knew that he'd be angry and that he would take it.
Richard Yeah, he hit him under a bushel, is the master was, he knew that he'd be angry and that he would take it.
Gerrit He reaped where he did not sow.
Gerrit He reaped where he did not sow.
Richard That's what I was like, reaped where he did not sow.
Richard That's what I was like, reaped where he did not sow.
Gerrit So the reason why I have to call you out on that is because I'm sitting next to a descendant of a French Canadian. And as all French Canadians know, Hugh Finlay is not the first postmaster of America.
Gerrit So the reason why I have to call you out on that is because I'm sitting next to a descendant of a French Canadian. And as all French Canadians know, Hugh Finlay is not the first postmaster of America.
Richard That's a weird way to spell a French name, Hugh. Finlay.
Richard That's a weird way to spell a French name, Hugh. Finlay.
Gerrit Because he's the first postmaster of Quebec after the British conquer it.
Gerrit Because he's the first postmaster of Quebec after the British conquer it.
Richard Yes, after the Treaty of Paris, he's the first postmaster.
Richard Yes, after the Treaty of Paris, he's the first postmaster.
Gerrit Which Treaty of Paris was that? Because there's lots of them. Yeah, there's lots, yeah, it's 1763, but.
Gerrit Which Treaty of Paris was that? Because there's lots of them. Yeah, there's lots, yeah, it's 1763, but.
Richard That was the worst flex I've ever seen in my life.
Richard That was the worst flex I've ever seen in my life.
Gerrit Which Treaty of Paris? You can get more of that from the premium content. We have to give the people what they want. They want postmasters, they want 54-40 or fight.
Gerrit Which Treaty of Paris? You can get more of that from the premium content. We have to give the people what they want. They want postmasters, they want 54-40 or fight.
Richard They want to know which Treaty of Paris it was.
Richard They want to know which Treaty of Paris it was.
Gerrit If I hadn't said that, we would, the emails we would have received would have been Legion. It would have been Legion. But I want to quickly just call out for a second, that there are of course French people there prior to the English taking it over. It's pretty caustic, the end of that. Really, historians think the first postmaster, if you want to call him that, is actually a Portuguese settler in Quebec named Pedro, but I think goes by Pierre de Silva, because he's trying to go along to get along.
Gerrit If I hadn't said that, we would, the emails we would have received would have been Legion. It would have been Legion. But I want to quickly just call out for a second, that there are of course French people there prior to the English taking it over. It's pretty caustic, the end of that. Really, historians think the first postmaster, if you want to call him that, is actually a Portuguese settler in Quebec named Pedro, but I think goes by Pierre de Silva, because he's trying to go along to get along.
Richard Pedro, you mean Pierre? I can see him doing it with like a Missouri accent. You mean Pierre?
Richard Pedro, you mean Pierre? I can see him doing it with like a Missouri accent. You mean Pierre?
Gerrit Yeah, you all mean Pierre, right? Yeah, Pierre, yeah, yeah. I think that's about right. I love how in Latter-day Saint movies, whenever we want to make someone evil, we give them a Missouri accent. Even if they're not, we could be in California and we want the person to be evil, give them a Missouri accent.
Gerrit Yeah, you all mean Pierre, right? Yeah, Pierre, yeah, yeah. I think that's about right. I love how in Latter-day Saint movies, whenever we want to make someone evil, we give them a Missouri accent. Even if they're not, we could be in California and we want the person to be evil, give them a Missouri accent.
Richard Hey, hey guys, I'm here with some letters. What's your name? Pedro. Oh, I don't know any Pedro's.
Richard Hey, hey guys, I'm here with some letters. What's your name? Pedro. Oh, I don't know any Pedro's.
Gerrit No Pedro's bringing letters around here. What's your name again? It's Pierre. Ah, that's what I thought you said. In 1693, he is actually given the contract to transport letters from Quebec and Montreal. And then the colony's first actual, you know, he's the first postmaster by that, but it's a French postmaster. In fact, Canada issued a commemorative stamp honoring Pedro de Silva in 2003. Did it? Do we have any Philatelists listening?
Gerrit No Pedro's bringing letters around here. What's your name again? It's Pierre. Ah, that's what I thought you said. In 1693, he is actually given the contract to transport letters from Quebec and Montreal. And then the colony's first actual, you know, he's the first postmaster by that, but it's a French postmaster. In fact, Canada issued a commemorative stamp honoring Pedro de Silva in 2003. Did it? Do we have any Philatelists listening?
Richard Yes, actually we do. I believe that our good friend, Reed, is a-
Richard Yes, actually we do. I believe that our good friend, Reed, is a-
Gerrit Is a Philatelist?
Gerrit Is a Philatelist?
Richard I believe so. No, no, not, no.
Richard I believe so. No, no, not, no.
Gerrit No.
Richard No, it's coins.
Gerrit No.
Richard No, it's coins.
Gerrit Oh, okay.
Gerrit Oh, okay.
Richard I get stamps and coins often.
Richard I get stamps and coins often.
Gerrit I thought you would confuse Philatelists with philanderer and I was a little worried that we'd get another email. No, no.
Gerrit I thought you would confuse Philatelists with philanderer and I was a little worried that we'd get another email. No, no.
Richard Not read.
Richard Not read.
Gerrit Not read. And he's gonna pass away in 1717 and you'll get a true French name.
Gerrit Not read. And he's gonna pass away in 1717 and you'll get a true French name.
Richard Oh my gosh, too soon.
Richard Oh my gosh, too soon.
Gerrit Yeah, Jean Morin becomes, Jean Morin or Jean Morin becomes the new postmaster. Of course, until the British take things over. So I mean, you have to, if I were a French Canadian or sitting next to a descendant of a French Canadian.
Gerrit Yeah, Jean Morin becomes, Jean Morin or Jean Morin becomes the new postmaster. Of course, until the British take things over. So I mean, you have to, if I were a French Canadian or sitting next to a descendant of a French Canadian.
Richard Well, Carl's living in the province of Alberta. I'm pretty sure that he's not counting the French either.
Richard Well, Carl's living in the province of Alberta. I'm pretty sure that he's not counting the French either.
Gerrit So how much, you know, is he happy that every road.
Gerrit So how much, you know, is he happy that every road.
Richard Well, he's still resenting the fact that he got probably like a B minus in French, you know, in middle school, he just hated it, but he had to take it anyway. And he's just irritated.
Richard Well, he's still resenting the fact that he got probably like a B minus in French, you know, in middle school, he just hated it, but he had to take it anyway. And he's just irritated.
Gerrit Well, look, what we're going for is we know our only growth area is Canadian listeners.
Gerrit Well, look, what we're going for is we know our only growth area is Canadian listeners.
Richard Oh, it's huge.
Richard Oh, it's huge.
Gerrit But we think our growth area is French Canadian listeners. That's the money ball.
Gerrit But we think our growth area is French Canadian listeners. That's the money ball.
Richard We've seen a lot of pickup in Spain as my son talks to other missionaries and they're listening, but instead of, because they can't listen to the podcast, so he's just sharing the Google Drive file with the, which doesn't count, but we do have 181 downloads in Spain. So it's blowing up.
Richard We've seen a lot of pickup in Spain as my son talks to other missionaries and they're listening, but instead of, because they can't listen to the podcast, so he's just sharing the Google Drive file with the, which doesn't count, but we do have 181 downloads in Spain. So it's blowing up.
Gerrit That has to be just missionaries who are illegally downloading it. Okay, well, I'm glad to know that we're helping the cause anyway, just thought we'd point that out. But let's go back to the question. Now, this is a really good question. In fact, I've been asked this question multiple times. Just in passing, people say, hey, do you know where that quote is that where Brigham Young had this, he was dressed down by Joseph Smith.
Gerrit That has to be just missionaries who are illegally downloading it. Okay, well, I'm glad to know that we're helping the cause anyway, just thought we'd point that out. But let's go back to the question. Now, this is a really good question. In fact, I've been asked this question multiple times. Just in passing, people say, hey, do you know where that quote is that where Brigham Young had this, he was dressed down by Joseph Smith.
Richard Thirteen minutes in, Rex's elders quorum president. Go ahead and start there.
Richard Thirteen minutes in, Rex's elders quorum president. Go ahead and start there.
Gerrit Well, I mean, wouldn't you have to listen to this point?
Gerrit Well, I mean, wouldn't you have to listen to this point?
Richard I'm going to put it in the description.
Richard I'm going to put it in the description.
Gerrit We can't just call it out every time or people will just always skip past the first three minutes.
Gerrit We can't just call it out every time or people will just always skip past the first three minutes.
Richard That's fine, it counts as a download.
Richard That's fine, it counts as a download.
Gerrit Richard's always thinking about numbers. This is a really great story, right? And part of the reason why I think it is so, it has so much, it has legs, so to speak. The reason why you've heard it before is we love how devoted Brigham Young is to Joseph Smith. And in fact, I mean, if I had to, I've been working on annotating and publishing Brigham Young's journals up through the Nauvoo period with the Brigham Young Center Foundation. Those are going to be coming out in a few months, actually, where we took them like we did with the Joseph Smith Papers, and we went through and made historical annotations to help people understand these documents. Well, one thing that's very clear, studying the life of Brigham Young, is just how desperately devoted he is to Joseph Smith.
Gerrit Richard's always thinking about numbers. This is a really great story, right? And part of the reason why I think it is so, it has so much, it has legs, so to speak. The reason why you've heard it before is we love how devoted Brigham Young is to Joseph Smith. And in fact, I mean, if I had to, I've been working on annotating and publishing Brigham Young's journals up through the Nauvoo period with the Brigham Young Center Foundation. Those are going to be coming out in a few months, actually, where we took them like we did with the Joseph Smith Papers, and we went through and made historical annotations to help people understand these documents. Well, one thing that's very clear, studying the life of Brigham Young, is just how desperately devoted he is to Joseph Smith.
Gerrit And that devotion is such that Brigham will apparently only have a slight moment of doubt that... It takes him a while to get into the church. You know, he's studying things in the church for a long time before he actually gets baptized. And then, as we've talked about before on this podcast, he struggles with the fact that Joseph reveals Doctrine and Covenant, Section 76, which says that essentially there isn't really a hell. Now, we have another listener inquiry about that. We're going to get to that in another podcast. And I think you know what that means. We're never, ever, ever going to get to it. I do have an intention to get to it.
Gerrit And that devotion is such that Brigham will apparently only have a slight moment of doubt that... It takes him a while to get into the church. You know, he's studying things in the church for a long time before he actually gets baptized. And then, as we've talked about before on this podcast, he struggles with the fact that Joseph reveals Doctrine and Covenant, Section 76, which says that essentially there isn't really a hell. Now, we have another listener inquiry about that. We're going to get to that in another podcast. And I think you know what that means. We're never, ever, ever going to get to it. I do have an intention to get to it.
Richard Yeah, yeah.
Richard Yeah, yeah.
Gerrit If no one else emails.
Gerrit If no one else emails.
Richard You're the Travis Tritt of LDS podcasters. You always have the best of intentions.
Richard You're the Travis Tritt of LDS podcasters. You always have the best of intentions.
Gerrit The best of intentions. Oh, I thought you were going to say, here's a quarter call someone who cares. But also that. Also that. So we'll get to that. But even with that, Brigham doesn't, you know, what does Brigham say? He says, I didn't reject it, but I could not understand it. There's only one place of Brigham's entire life that we know that he even entertains the thought that Joseph isn't absolutely a prophet of God. And that's with the collapse of the Kirtland Safety Society. With the collapse of the Kirtland Safety Society, Brigham, this is the bank that was in Kirtland. Sorry, my voice is a little raspy. Our options were to not record it all and not give you a podcast, or you can listen to me sounding worse than I normally do. Or we could just have Richard take it over, Richard.
Gerrit The best of intentions. Oh, I thought you were going to say, here's a quarter call someone who cares. But also that. Also that. So we'll get to that. But even with that, Brigham doesn't, you know, what does Brigham say? He says, I didn't reject it, but I could not understand it. There's only one place of Brigham's entire life that we know that he even entertains the thought that Joseph isn't absolutely a prophet of God. And that's with the collapse of the Kirtland Safety Society. With the collapse of the Kirtland Safety Society, Brigham, this is the bank that was in Kirtland. Sorry, my voice is a little raspy. Our options were to not record it all and not give you a podcast, or you can listen to me sounding worse than I normally do. Or we could just have Richard take it over, Richard.
Richard Yeah, you know what? So, we have here...
Richard Yeah, you know what? So, we have here...
Gerrit Now is your time.
Gerrit Now is your time.
Richard Yes. Well, so, I think your voice is fine.
Richard Yes. Well, so, I think your voice is fine.
Gerrit Okay, good, good.
Gerrit Okay, good, good.
Richard I would devolve quickly into things...
Richard I would devolve quickly into things...
Gerrit I just assume that you're going to... That this is all one massive power grab.
Gerrit I just assume that you're going to... That this is all one massive power grab.
Richard Yeah.
Richard Yeah.
Gerrit You planted a few Canadian emails and now... Anyway. But Brigham's going to say that for a brief moment after the Kirtland Safety Society fiasco happens, that Brigham thinks, you know, is Joseph a prophet? And then immediately says, yes, he is. So he doesn't dwell on it very long. He apparently has the thought enter his head. And Brigham feels so guilty about it that the thought enters his head that he talks about it multiple times. I think he feels guilty that he ever even for a second had a thought enter his head that Joseph wasn't a prophet, even though he didn't act on it, immediately banished it from his mind and continued to serve Joseph the remainder of his life. But Brigham still feels guilty about it, that for that one instance, the thought entered his mind. So in many ways, Brigham Young is, he's the best example of the type of testimony that we want to have in the Prophet Joseph Smith.
Gerrit You planted a few Canadian emails and now... Anyway. But Brigham's going to say that for a brief moment after the Kirtland Safety Society fiasco happens, that Brigham thinks, you know, is Joseph a prophet? And then immediately says, yes, he is. So he doesn't dwell on it very long. He apparently has the thought enter his head. And Brigham feels so guilty about it that the thought enters his head that he talks about it multiple times. I think he feels guilty that he ever even for a second had a thought enter his head that Joseph wasn't a prophet, even though he didn't act on it, immediately banished it from his mind and continued to serve Joseph the remainder of his life. But Brigham still feels guilty about it, that for that one instance, the thought entered his mind. So in many ways, Brigham Young is, he's the best example of the type of testimony that we want to have in the Prophet Joseph Smith.
Gerrit Brigham Young did not decide whether or not something Joseph taught was right by comparing it to other things that had been taught. He didn't pull out his Bible and say, now, wait a minute, where does it say this, Joseph? He didn't grab his Book of Mormon and say, excuse me, Joseph, you just said that people could be saved by being baptized after this life. And, you know, I hate to point it out to you, nowhere in the Book of Mormon. So therefore that must not be true, right? For Brigham, if Joseph said it, then it became true. If you didn't have a scripture that could back it up, it became true. If you didn't have any other revelations that preceded it or explained it afterwards, if it didn't make sense, it didn't matter. If the Prophet Joseph Smith said it, it became true.
Gerrit Brigham Young did not decide whether or not something Joseph taught was right by comparing it to other things that had been taught. He didn't pull out his Bible and say, now, wait a minute, where does it say this, Joseph? He didn't grab his Book of Mormon and say, excuse me, Joseph, you just said that people could be saved by being baptized after this life. And, you know, I hate to point it out to you, nowhere in the Book of Mormon. So therefore that must not be true, right? For Brigham, if Joseph said it, then it became true. If you didn't have a scripture that could back it up, it became true. If you didn't have any other revelations that preceded it or explained it afterwards, if it didn't make sense, it didn't matter. If the Prophet Joseph Smith said it, it became true.
Gerrit So I think that's part of the reason why, I mean, I love Brigham and Joseph's relationship, and at least according to one account of Brigham Young's death, the last thing that he says as he dies is, Joseph, Joseph, Joseph, right? I mean, Brigham Young loves Joseph Smith, which, by the way, as a historian, makes you all the more angry at the ham-fisted, absolutely unacademic attempts of various apostate groups in Utah right now to put forth the absurd and frankly idiotic argument that Brigham Young had Joseph Smith killed. Brigham Young would have killed himself before he killed Joseph Smith. Brigham Young loved Joseph. And you don't have to read very much to realize how much he loved him. And Wilford Woodruff's diary, when Brigham finds out that Joseph has been murdered and Brigham takes to his bed and balls like a baby the whole rest of the night.
Gerrit So I think that's part of the reason why, I mean, I love Brigham and Joseph's relationship, and at least according to one account of Brigham Young's death, the last thing that he says as he dies is, Joseph, Joseph, Joseph, right? I mean, Brigham Young loves Joseph Smith, which, by the way, as a historian, makes you all the more angry at the ham-fisted, absolutely unacademic attempts of various apostate groups in Utah right now to put forth the absurd and frankly idiotic argument that Brigham Young had Joseph Smith killed. Brigham Young would have killed himself before he killed Joseph Smith. Brigham Young loved Joseph. And you don't have to read very much to realize how much he loved him. And Wilford Woodruff's diary, when Brigham finds out that Joseph has been murdered and Brigham takes to his bed and balls like a baby the whole rest of the night.
Gerrit Now, I'm sure that, you know, Wilford Woodruff was also in on it. You know, so he wrote that into his journal, you know, pretending that, of course, Brigham didn't really order the hit. So it's one of the worst. I mean, it's a horrible, horrible argument made by people who are either deliberately attempting to deceive people because they don't have any academic resources on their side or by people who don't know enough and therefore shouldn't be talking about it. Either way, they're terrible arguments. But Brigham loves Joseph, loves him. And so part of this story in that regard rings true even to me. Even though I'm not going to be able to say, aha, here's our source. So where is this source coming from? And how do we have it? You've obviously heard it a couple of times, Carl, like you said.
Gerrit Now, I'm sure that, you know, Wilford Woodruff was also in on it. You know, so he wrote that into his journal, you know, pretending that, of course, Brigham didn't really order the hit. So it's one of the worst. I mean, it's a horrible, horrible argument made by people who are either deliberately attempting to deceive people because they don't have any academic resources on their side or by people who don't know enough and therefore shouldn't be talking about it. Either way, they're terrible arguments. But Brigham loves Joseph, loves him. And so part of this story in that regard rings true even to me. Even though I'm not going to be able to say, aha, here's our source. So where is this source coming from? And how do we have it? You've obviously heard it a couple of times, Carl, like you said.
Gerrit Well, where have you heard it a couple of times? And so we're going to try to trace back where this comes from. And in order to do that, we have to kind of unpack things. Now, it has been cited, this story has been told, and it's been quoted a couple of times in the magazines of the church. It is a story that has been cited in the Enzyme, in the early 2000s a couple of times, and even before that. So whenever you're trying to find where a source comes from, one of the most important things to do is to keep tracing back. So if you read an article in church newspaper and it cites a source, we'll go find that source. And then you'll see usually what you'll find is that source that's being cited is really just citing someone else.
Gerrit Well, where have you heard it a couple of times? And so we're going to try to trace back where this comes from. And in order to do that, we have to kind of unpack things. Now, it has been cited, this story has been told, and it's been quoted a couple of times in the magazines of the church. It is a story that has been cited in the Enzyme, in the early 2000s a couple of times, and even before that. So whenever you're trying to find where a source comes from, one of the most important things to do is to keep tracing back. So if you read an article in church newspaper and it cites a source, we'll go find that source. And then you'll see usually what you'll find is that source that's being cited is really just citing someone else.
Gerrit I mean, because look, I've given enough talks to know that I can't just track down the original of everything. Sometimes I'm just going to quote what someone else has already said, right? For instance, whenever I say anything about the New Testament and about how things were originally in Greek, guess who hasn't gone to the original Greek? Richard. No, me. I haven't. Although I assume Richard hasn't either.
Gerrit I mean, because look, I've given enough talks to know that I can't just track down the original of everything. Sometimes I'm just going to quote what someone else has already said, right? For instance, whenever I say anything about the New Testament and about how things were originally in Greek, guess who hasn't gone to the original Greek? Richard. No, me. I haven't. Although I assume Richard hasn't either.
Richard No, no, I actually, it's wrong of you to assume that.
Richard No, no, I actually, it's wrong of you to assume that.
Gerrit He prefers more Ugaritic than the Greek.
Gerrit He prefers more Ugaritic than the Greek.
Richard I do, but I do comb through all of the original Greek manuscripts on all of them.
Richard I do, but I do comb through all of the original Greek manuscripts on all of them.
Gerrit Yes, over and over. So when I say, oh, in the original Greek, this word means this when I'm trying to make a point or answering a question for somebody, I am not an expert. I am simply citing someone who I hope is an expert. Now, that is sometimes fraught with a little bit of peril, right? Because what happens if the person that you're citing just says they're an expert? Like for instance, what if someone you're citing says that there's evidence that Abraham Lincoln's views against slavery originated from Abraham Lincoln reading the Book of Mormon? Now, I might think that person is an expert because they say they are one, but that's why it's important to kind of track down someone's expertise. And before I quote someone as a Greek scholar on it, I kind of want to, if it's a big deal, I'll probably want to find another scholar that says the same thing.
Gerrit Yes, over and over. So when I say, oh, in the original Greek, this word means this when I'm trying to make a point or answering a question for somebody, I am not an expert. I am simply citing someone who I hope is an expert. Now, that is sometimes fraught with a little bit of peril, right? Because what happens if the person that you're citing just says they're an expert? Like for instance, what if someone you're citing says that there's evidence that Abraham Lincoln's views against slavery originated from Abraham Lincoln reading the Book of Mormon? Now, I might think that person is an expert because they say they are one, but that's why it's important to kind of track down someone's expertise. And before I quote someone as a Greek scholar on it, I kind of want to, if it's a big deal, I'll probably want to find another scholar that says the same thing.
Gerrit You know, when we were working on the Joseph Smith Papers and I know we've already had a podcast on this, but it gets all apocryphal all the time for us. Every day when we're doing our, well, every day, every time we have a production meeting, which involves...
Gerrit You know, when we were working on the Joseph Smith Papers and I know we've already had a podcast on this, but it gets all apocryphal all the time for us. Every day when we're doing our, well, every day, every time we have a production meeting, which involves...
Richard We've had zero, every day, every day.
Richard We've had zero, every day, every day.
Gerrit When we have a production meeting, which involves Angie and Becky, our wives, bringing us McDonald's food and drinks, while we talk about which NCAA teams we're not going to bet on this year, because we don't bet. Yeah. But even if we did, we wouldn't.
Gerrit When we have a production meeting, which involves Angie and Becky, our wives, bringing us McDonald's food and drinks, while we talk about which NCAA teams we're not going to bet on this year, because we don't bet. Yeah. But even if we did, we wouldn't.
Richard Of course.
Richard Of course.
Gerrit That's our production meeting.
Gerrit That's our production meeting.
Richard While also listening to music, generally.
Richard While also listening to music, generally.
Gerrit Yeah, we listened to Johnny Cash today.
Gerrit Yeah, we listened to Johnny Cash today.
Richard Yeah, yeah. A little, yeah.
Richard Yeah, yeah. A little, yeah.
Gerrit Because we're going to walk the line.
Richard Ring a fire and walk the line. That's right.
Gerrit Because we're going to walk the line.
Richard Ring a fire and walk the line. That's right.
Gerrit Well, because if you don't walk the line, you're going to end up in the ring of fire.
Gerrit Well, because if you don't walk the line, you're going to end up in the ring of fire.
Richard That's right.
Gerrit Yeah. But...
Richard That's right.
Gerrit Yeah. But...
Richard Well, because, and in fairness, these things have, there's some complication to this, right? Like this isn't a very simple, easy thing. Like, most things that you talk about, most things in history...
Richard Well, because, and in fairness, these things have, there's some complication to this, right? Like this isn't a very simple, easy thing. Like, most things that you talk about, most things in history...
Gerrit The reality is, whenever someone presents a historical source and they make it seem like it's black and white and cut and dried, it's not. It just isn't. Almost nothing is. There's context that we don't know about. There might be multiple versions of it, all kinds of things like that, which you must not be that bored of, Carl, or you would have already stopped listening to the podcast.
Gerrit The reality is, whenever someone presents a historical source and they make it seem like it's black and white and cut and dried, it's not. It just isn't. Almost nothing is. There's context that we don't know about. There might be multiple versions of it, all kinds of things like that, which you must not be that bored of, Carl, or you would have already stopped listening to the podcast.
Richard Carl's a huge fan of the show.
Richard Carl's a huge fan of the show.
Gerrit Yeah. 5440 or fight?
Gerrit Yeah. 5440 or fight?
Richard Yeah, that's hilarious, Carl.
Richard Yeah, that's hilarious, Carl.
Gerrit Now, Rex's elders quorum president stopped listening a few months ago.
Gerrit Now, Rex's elders quorum president stopped listening a few months ago.
Richard Yes.
Richard Yes.
Gerrit We need you to verify with us.
Gerrit We need you to verify with us.
Richard That'd be great.
Richard That'd be great.
Gerrit Rex, we need you to reach out. The people cry out. We need to know. So you go and you track down where that source is cited to, and then you find that other source that it's cited to, and you keep going back down the line until you can find where does the story really originate. Now, I think that this story really gets into the popular understanding of Latter-day Saints from, well, you know, the moment you told the story in your email, Carl, Richard and I looked at each other with a very knowing glance, and we said, ah, we know that story. And we know where it's from, because our hero is Truman Madsen. Now, again, we are not Truman Madsen. We are not as capable as Truman Madsen. We are certainly, collectively, the both of us, not even close to as intelligent as Truman Madsen.
Gerrit Rex, we need you to reach out. The people cry out. We need to know. So you go and you track down where that source is cited to, and then you find that other source that it's cited to, and you keep going back down the line until you can find where does the story really originate. Now, I think that this story really gets into the popular understanding of Latter-day Saints from, well, you know, the moment you told the story in your email, Carl, Richard and I looked at each other with a very knowing glance, and we said, ah, we know that story. And we know where it's from, because our hero is Truman Madsen. Now, again, we are not Truman Madsen. We are not as capable as Truman Madsen. We are certainly, collectively, the both of us, not even close to as intelligent as Truman Madsen.
Gerrit Okay? We're not as good at teachers. I'm sure he was a better father. I mean, there's all kinds of reasons we can...
Gerrit Okay? We're not as good at teachers. I'm sure he was a better father. I mean, there's all kinds of reasons we can...
Richard Yeah, more handsome, better dancer, all of the things.
Richard Yeah, more handsome, better dancer, all of the things.
Gerrit Yeah, I hear he was a better dancer. We're going to have to have Barney let us know. Barney, how did your dad dance?
Gerrit Yeah, I hear he was a better dancer. We're going to have to have Barney let us know. Barney, how did your dad dance?
Richard No matter how he danced, he's a better dancer.
Richard No matter how he danced, he's a better dancer.
Gerrit So your opinion of my dancing is so low.
Gerrit So your opinion of my dancing is so low.
Richard Yeah, I've seen you dance.
Richard Yeah, I've seen you dance.
Gerrit That was just, you know, what, on a cruise ship?
Gerrit That was just, you know, what, on a cruise ship?
Richard Yeah, I've seen it.
Richard Yeah, I've seen it.
Gerrit And the worst part about trying to dance on a cruise ship is when you're a Latter-day Saint, you can't blame the fact that you're drunk. I mean, I guess you could to other people who don't know what a Latter-day Saint is, but to your friends who are also Latter-day Saints, unless they gave you the alcohol, you can't do it.
Gerrit And the worst part about trying to dance on a cruise ship is when you're a Latter-day Saint, you can't blame the fact that you're drunk. I mean, I guess you could to other people who don't know what a Latter-day Saint is, but to your friends who are also Latter-day Saints, unless they gave you the alcohol, you can't do it.
Richard On that cruise ship, I think that you're referencing, I took my wife out on the dance floor, did a couple twirls, and then I went for a nice dip.
Richard On that cruise ship, I think that you're referencing, I took my wife out on the dance floor, did a couple twirls, and then I went for a nice dip.
Gerrit Was this before or after you sang the karaoke version of Britney Spears' Toxic?
Gerrit Was this before or after you sang the karaoke version of Britney Spears' Toxic?
Richard I don't think it was Toxic. It was a different Britney Spears song.
Richard I don't think it was Toxic. It was a different Britney Spears song.
Gerrit Oh, oops, I did it again.
Gerrit Oh, oops, I did it again.
Richard Oops, I did it again.
Richard Oops, I did it again.
Gerrit Our wives in the background are cueing us to what it was. We'll post that video on our website.
Gerrit Our wives in the background are cueing us to what it was. We'll post that video on our website.
Richard I dipped to my wife, my back went out, and I threw her to the ground. I fell to the ground, she went down to the ground. It was a disaster in an attempt to be mildly romantic. That's how I know that Truman Madsen was a better dancer.
Richard I dipped to my wife, my back went out, and I threw her to the ground. I fell to the ground, she went down to the ground. It was a disaster in an attempt to be mildly romantic. That's how I know that Truman Madsen was a better dancer.
Gerrit We're guessing that your dad was a better dancer. Anyway, so when you told the story, I knew instantly where it was from because it's from Truman Madsen's lectures on the Prophet Joseph Smith. Now, I didn't know until you sent your email, and look, we're kind of out of my realm of history when we're doing anything that happened in the 20th century. But I didn't know that actually he had told this story earlier in a tribute to Hubie Brown. So the earliest place that you're going to hear this story written, and it's possible that someone listening, this is where they first heard it too, it's possible. Probably not, though. I'm guessing that it's the Joseph Smith lectures by Truman Madsen. And so let me share that. It's a tribute to Hubie Brown, and you might be thinking, well, why in the world? I know you go on tans and scare it, but now you're talking about Hubie Brown in order to talk about Brigham Young being rebuked by Joseph Smith.
Gerrit We're guessing that your dad was a better dancer. Anyway, so when you told the story, I knew instantly where it was from because it's from Truman Madsen's lectures on the Prophet Joseph Smith. Now, I didn't know until you sent your email, and look, we're kind of out of my realm of history when we're doing anything that happened in the 20th century. But I didn't know that actually he had told this story earlier in a tribute to Hubie Brown. So the earliest place that you're going to hear this story written, and it's possible that someone listening, this is where they first heard it too, it's possible. Probably not, though. I'm guessing that it's the Joseph Smith lectures by Truman Madsen. And so let me share that. It's a tribute to Hubie Brown, and you might be thinking, well, why in the world? I know you go on tans and scare it, but now you're talking about Hubie Brown in order to talk about Brigham Young being rebuked by Joseph Smith.
Richard By the way, we'll put a link to Truman Madsen's actual talk on BYU speeches to the episode. Which will be better than this podcast. So we recommend that you just stop now, click on that link and just listen to his actual lecture.
Richard By the way, we'll put a link to Truman Madsen's actual talk on BYU speeches to the episode. Which will be better than this podcast. So we recommend that you just stop now, click on that link and just listen to his actual lecture.
Gerrit Hopefully you don't even click on our link, you just listen to that and it will be better. And actually, you know what, as an aside, because that's all we do as asides. Yep.
Gerrit Hopefully you don't even click on our link, you just listen to that and it will be better. And actually, you know what, as an aside, because that's all we do as asides. Yep.
Richard We're never going to get to your question, Carl.
Richard We're never going to get to your question, Carl.
Gerrit Well, I mean, we kind of got to it. We said, Hey Carl, thanks for the question. You're wrong about the Postmaster. Tune in for more. I love Hubie Brown. Now, obviously, I didn't know him the way that some of our listeners did because they actually got to hear him speak. You know, I didn't. But I'll tell you what, the two greatest talks I ever heard as a young person were God is the Gardener and Profile of a Prophet. And those two talks by President Brown were a big part of my testimony. And I honestly just loved the way that he taught. I loved the way that he provided evidences and emotion and reason and humor all the way around. And so, I mean, I already loved Truman Madsen.
Gerrit Well, I mean, we kind of got to it. We said, Hey Carl, thanks for the question. You're wrong about the Postmaster. Tune in for more. I love Hubie Brown. Now, obviously, I didn't know him the way that some of our listeners did because they actually got to hear him speak. You know, I didn't. But I'll tell you what, the two greatest talks I ever heard as a young person were God is the Gardener and Profile of a Prophet. And those two talks by President Brown were a big part of my testimony. And I honestly just loved the way that he taught. I loved the way that he provided evidences and emotion and reason and humor all the way around. And so, I mean, I already loved Truman Madsen.
Gerrit The fact that he's profiling Hugh Brown, President Brown, makes me even more happy to talk about this. But Truman Madsen was apparently on very good terms with President Brown and his family. And I think that's the reason why he wrote this tribute, which is a wonderful tribute, okay? It's published in the 1976 April New Era magazine. Some of you can just turn around to the stacks of them.
Gerrit The fact that he's profiling Hugh Brown, President Brown, makes me even more happy to talk about this. But Truman Madsen was apparently on very good terms with President Brown and his family. And I think that's the reason why he wrote this tribute, which is a wonderful tribute, okay? It's published in the 1976 April New Era magazine. Some of you can just turn around to the stacks of them.
Richard My mother-in-law used to, yeah.
Richard My mother-in-law used to, yeah.
Gerrit Did she have all of them?
Gerrit Did she have all of them?
Richard Well, I swear that she kept everything, every magazine ever in case you ever needed a picture or some quote she had. I don't know if she had the April 1976.
Richard Well, I swear that she kept everything, every magazine ever in case you ever needed a picture or some quote she had. I don't know if she had the April 1976.
Gerrit That's what we did before the internet, just so everyone knows.
Gerrit That's what we did before the internet, just so everyone knows.
Richard But man, she kept all of those magazines.
Richard But man, she kept all of those magazines.
Gerrit My dad did the same thing. He kept all the magazines. And then when he had to give a talk, you know, we go to lds.org, and my dad's sitting there going through like, nothing in 1983, and he's going through that. Anyway, in this article, this is what Truman Madsen quotes from these conversations that he had from the family. So I'm going to be quoting the article here. Some of his most severe tests were, as always, in his own family and in his own church. So talking about President Brown, some of the tests that he had to go through. From his wife, Zina, he learned to treasure a family legacy. The story of Brigham Young receiving a lacing from the Prophet Joseph Smith, a deliberate and public blow to the very core of the man, his pride. Brigham arose with all eyes upon him, and in a tone everyone knew was without bitterness, cried out, Joseph, what do you want me to do?
Gerrit My dad did the same thing. He kept all the magazines. And then when he had to give a talk, you know, we go to lds.org, and my dad's sitting there going through like, nothing in 1983, and he's going through that. Anyway, in this article, this is what Truman Madsen quotes from these conversations that he had from the family. So I'm going to be quoting the article here. Some of his most severe tests were, as always, in his own family and in his own church. So talking about President Brown, some of the tests that he had to go through. From his wife, Zina, he learned to treasure a family legacy. The story of Brigham Young receiving a lacing from the Prophet Joseph Smith, a deliberate and public blow to the very core of the man, his pride. Brigham arose with all eyes upon him, and in a tone everyone knew was without bitterness, cried out, Joseph, what do you want me to do?
Gerrit The Prophet burst into tears, descended and embraced Brigham, saying, in effect, you pass, Brother Brigham, you pass. President Brown knew the privileges of high office, but also knew also those of release. He knew what it was to step up and to step down. For him, it was crucial that the Saints be able to take that kind of medicine, to endure priesthood stress, even undeserved, and to plod on in sweetness of spirit in the absence of any tangible encouragement. Oh Lord, his family often heard him pray, if in order to be humble, we must be humiliated, give us the courage to say, let it come. Beautiful. First of all, you can already tell reading that how much better Truman Madsen is than us. Collectively, probably everyone listening. That was beautiful. And it also goes to the great talk that President Brown gave, God is the Gardener.
Gerrit The Prophet burst into tears, descended and embraced Brigham, saying, in effect, you pass, Brother Brigham, you pass. President Brown knew the privileges of high office, but also knew also those of release. He knew what it was to step up and to step down. For him, it was crucial that the Saints be able to take that kind of medicine, to endure priesthood stress, even undeserved, and to plod on in sweetness of spirit in the absence of any tangible encouragement. Oh Lord, his family often heard him pray, if in order to be humble, we must be humiliated, give us the courage to say, let it come. Beautiful. First of all, you can already tell reading that how much better Truman Madsen is than us. Collectively, probably everyone listening. That was beautiful. And it also goes to the great talk that President Brown gave, God is the Gardener.
Gerrit The entire idea that some trials are necessary in order to make us who we are, and that it's actually the whole point of this life. We came to this earth to have trials. And that sounds terrible when I say it like that. It sounds like I wouldn't be able to sell tickets to that preaching.
Gerrit The entire idea that some trials are necessary in order to make us who we are, and that it's actually the whole point of this life. We came to this earth to have trials. And that sounds terrible when I say it like that. It sounds like I wouldn't be able to sell tickets to that preaching.
Richard Maybe to just the two thirds of the people that you're preaching it to.
Richard Maybe to just the two thirds of the people that you're preaching it to.
Gerrit Oh boy. What a war in heaven reference.
Gerrit Oh boy. What a war in heaven reference.
Richard That's pretty good.
Richard That's pretty good.
Gerrit But here you get this understanding that it's a family story that he learns from his wife. Now, why does this matter? Well, that's because his wife is a granddaughter of Brigham Young. So this story of Brigham Young being chastised is apparently one that's being told inside of his in-laws' families. And it's being told enough times that apparently it is something that was powerful to President Brown and touched him enough that he's telling Truman Madsen this story, at least on one occasion, powerfully enough for Truman Madsen to remember it. So that's when it first becomes public. It's first in a public church publication. Now, the question would immediately arise, right?
Gerrit But here you get this understanding that it's a family story that he learns from his wife. Now, why does this matter? Well, that's because his wife is a granddaughter of Brigham Young. So this story of Brigham Young being chastised is apparently one that's being told inside of his in-laws' families. And it's being told enough times that apparently it is something that was powerful to President Brown and touched him enough that he's telling Truman Madsen this story, at least on one occasion, powerfully enough for Truman Madsen to remember it. So that's when it first becomes public. It's first in a public church publication. Now, the question would immediately arise, right?
Gerrit So if it's in a church meeting, it's a public lacing from the Prophet Joseph. Do we have any other sources that talk about this? I should wait till the very end to give the reveal.
Gerrit So if it's in a church meeting, it's a public lacing from the Prophet Joseph. Do we have any other sources that talk about this? I should wait till the very end to give the reveal.
Richard Just go ahead.
Richard Just go ahead.
Gerrit No, we don't.
Gerrit No, we don't.
Richard I think that that was...
Richard I think that that was...
Gerrit Everyone knew that. Well, Carl called me a dream crusher.
Gerrit Everyone knew that. Well, Carl called me a dream crusher.
Richard Well, that's what you're about to do here.
Richard Well, that's what you're about to do here.
Gerrit No, no, I'm not going to dream crush. I'm just going to explain.
Gerrit No, no, I'm not going to dream crush. I'm just going to explain.
Richard Okay.
Richard Okay.
Gerrit While also...
Gerrit While also...
Richard Saying that it probably may be.
Richard Saying that it probably may be.
Gerrit No, no, no, no.
Gerrit No, no, no, no.
Richard Possibly it is.
Richard Possibly it is.
Gerrit Look, it's clearly a part of family tradition. And like I said though, when it really gets into the Latter-day Saint lexicon is with Truman Madsen's lectures. Now, lectures, as every good historian will tell you, thankfully do not have footnotes because you're up there winging it. I mean, not that you don't know the stuff, but heavens, if I were to try to footnote everything I'm saying on this podcast, not only would it reveal how terrible I am at this, but it would be a nightmare to try to do.
Gerrit Look, it's clearly a part of family tradition. And like I said though, when it really gets into the Latter-day Saint lexicon is with Truman Madsen's lectures. Now, lectures, as every good historian will tell you, thankfully do not have footnotes because you're up there winging it. I mean, not that you don't know the stuff, but heavens, if I were to try to footnote everything I'm saying on this podcast, not only would it reveal how terrible I am at this, but it would be a nightmare to try to do.
Richard That's why we don't put references. That's the main reason.
Richard That's why we don't put references. That's the main reason.
Gerrit Right. We don't put references because then the emperor has no clothes. Then suddenly people will be like, wait a minute, he didn't even put the citation to which version of the Journal of Discourses article that was? Nope, he didn't. Right. So, but it's from his lectures that he gives. Well, those lectures were incredibly popular. I mean, they were so popular that, you know, a decade and a half later, Richard and I are listening to them on our mission. And they are a hot commodity to put your hands on. Because they are so incredible.
Gerrit Right. We don't put references because then the emperor has no clothes. Then suddenly people will be like, wait a minute, he didn't even put the citation to which version of the Journal of Discourses article that was? Nope, he didn't. Right. So, but it's from his lectures that he gives. Well, those lectures were incredibly popular. I mean, they were so popular that, you know, a decade and a half later, Richard and I are listening to them on our mission. And they are a hot commodity to put your hands on. Because they are so incredible.
Richard I would think 50% of the missionaries in my mission had one of those tape series.
Richard I would think 50% of the missionaries in my mission had one of those tape series.
Gerrit That's why we say that Truman Madsen meant so much to our testimonies. Because those lectures, the fact that we had access to them, were the building blocks of our understanding, at least, of Joseph Smith and our faith, our testimonies. I mean, I gained a testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith through prayer, but I gained an understanding of who Joseph was by listening to those tapes. I think that's probably a fair thing. And look, set me on a career path to where it's what I did and do for a living now. Or, as Carl reminds us, as I try to glut myself on Filthy Luker with the premium content, some of that's just American history.
Gerrit That's why we say that Truman Madsen meant so much to our testimonies. Because those lectures, the fact that we had access to them, were the building blocks of our understanding, at least, of Joseph Smith and our faith, our testimonies. I mean, I gained a testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith through prayer, but I gained an understanding of who Joseph was by listening to those tapes. I think that's probably a fair thing. And look, set me on a career path to where it's what I did and do for a living now. Or, as Carl reminds us, as I try to glut myself on Filthy Luker with the premium content, some of that's just American history.
Richard Yeah, some of it is. I mean, about half of it, about half of the stuff.
Richard Yeah, some of it is. I mean, about half of it, about half of the stuff.
Gerrit 54-40 or five.
Gerrit 54-40 or five.
Richard That's right.
Richard That's right.
Gerrit We haven't got to that yet.
Gerrit We haven't got to that yet.
Richard We have not.
Gerrit We'll never get to that. We're somewhere near, though. We're approaching. We're thinking about Boston Tea Party.
Richard We have not.
Gerrit We'll never get to that. We're somewhere near, though. We're approaching. We're thinking about Boston Tea Party.
Richard Yeah. We're getting close to that. We just concluded, you know, just as a bit of a, you know, this free episode sponsored by the premium content, where we just spent three weeks talking about the Stamp Act and the aftermath of the seven years.
Richard Yeah. We're getting close to that. We just concluded, you know, just as a bit of a, you know, this free episode sponsored by the premium content, where we just spent three weeks talking about the Stamp Act and the aftermath of the seven years.
Gerrit Tell me that wasn't interesting. Tell me about Andrew Oliver.
Gerrit Tell me that wasn't interesting. Tell me about Andrew Oliver.
Richard Yeah. Yeah, that was actually pretty great.
Richard Yeah. Yeah, that was actually pretty great.
Gerrit Yeah. We had a lot of fun with him. And so did the Tea Party Patriots. So those talks were so powerful that people essentially clamored to Truman Madsen. And again, we should probably have Barney on as a guest sometime. We'll ask him these questions. That his dad agreed to turn them into a book. And so he does. He publishes a book that's called Joseph Smith the Prophet.
Gerrit Yeah. We had a lot of fun with him. And so did the Tea Party Patriots. So those talks were so powerful that people essentially clamored to Truman Madsen. And again, we should probably have Barney on as a guest sometime. We'll ask him these questions. That his dad agreed to turn them into a book. And so he does. He publishes a book that's called Joseph Smith the Prophet.
Richard That we just purchased, proceeds. Hopefully he has a better deal than you've got in terms of when you publish articles or publish things.
Richard That we just purchased, proceeds. Hopefully he has a better deal than you've got in terms of when you publish articles or publish things.
Gerrit Well, I mean, no one reads what I publish.
Gerrit Well, I mean, no one reads what I publish.
Richard That's fair.
Richard That's fair.
Gerrit No difference.
Gerrit No difference.
Richard But hopefully to the estate of Truman Madsen.
Richard But hopefully to the estate of Truman Madsen.
Gerrit To the estate. I hope this means that there's just that much more root beer from, from, you know, the brick oven that is, that is available to you. Um, when he publishes these outside of like little editing things, he just publishes them as is and then goes through the gargantuan task. And this is a big deal of going in and inserting footnotes to every one of the stories and sources that he gives in that, in those lectures. This must have taken him forever, except he was a genius. So maybe, maybe it took him like a weekend. And for me, it would be like, uh, that'll be the next 10 years of our lives, Angie. This is going to be me looking up footnotes to put it, to put in here. Well, um, so let me, let me share from the lecture because this is, you know, again, edited just a little bit for like, you know, people coughing in the room. We don't include that.
Gerrit To the estate. I hope this means that there's just that much more root beer from, from, you know, the brick oven that is, that is available to you. Um, when he publishes these outside of like little editing things, he just publishes them as is and then goes through the gargantuan task. And this is a big deal of going in and inserting footnotes to every one of the stories and sources that he gives in that, in those lectures. This must have taken him forever, except he was a genius. So maybe, maybe it took him like a weekend. And for me, it would be like, uh, that'll be the next 10 years of our lives, Angie. This is going to be me looking up footnotes to put it, to put in here. Well, um, so let me, let me share from the lecture because this is, you know, again, edited just a little bit for like, you know, people coughing in the room. We don't include that.
Gerrit It doesn't like cough, cough, cough. Um, talking about Joseph Smith. Um, so I'll give a little bit of a lead into it. Incidentally, the prophet, loving, playful and cheerful, though he was, did not balk when it was, when he was inspired to rebuke or to admonish with sharpness. After the rebuke, he would show forth an increase of love to the one rebuked in accordance with Doctrine and Covenants 121 43. But he could be towering when he rebuked and it could penetrate to the very vitals. Illustrative of this story, still carried in the family lore of Brigham Young's descendants, but so far as I know, never recorded. And then he goes on to, to, to tell the story. So in his talk, he, he very responsibly tells the listeners, hey, there isn't a document that says this.
Gerrit It doesn't like cough, cough, cough. Um, talking about Joseph Smith. Um, so I'll give a little bit of a lead into it. Incidentally, the prophet, loving, playful and cheerful, though he was, did not balk when it was, when he was inspired to rebuke or to admonish with sharpness. After the rebuke, he would show forth an increase of love to the one rebuked in accordance with Doctrine and Covenants 121 43. But he could be towering when he rebuked and it could penetrate to the very vitals. Illustrative of this story, still carried in the family lore of Brigham Young's descendants, but so far as I know, never recorded. And then he goes on to, to, to tell the story. So in his talk, he, he very responsibly tells the listeners, hey, there isn't a document that says this.
Gerrit This is family tradition that says this. In fact, he uses the word lore that says it. Now, I think he feels comfortable saying that because, you know, it was related enough times by Zina and by, by Q Brown that the, at least the family really felt that it was a great story of Brigham Young's character. And by the way, it is a great, I mean, it's a great, it's, for me, if that story didn't happen or at least didn't happen exactly the way that it kicked down to the family, it's still very illustrative of who Brigham Young was. Absolutely devoted to Joseph. Now, would he have taken a dressing down from, say, Orson Pratt? No, he would not. Especially when Brigham was the prophet and Orson Pratt was the one questioning him. But he's being very responsible as a scholar.
Gerrit This is family tradition that says this. In fact, he uses the word lore that says it. Now, I think he feels comfortable saying that because, you know, it was related enough times by Zina and by, by Q Brown that the, at least the family really felt that it was a great story of Brigham Young's character. And by the way, it is a great, I mean, it's a great, it's, for me, if that story didn't happen or at least didn't happen exactly the way that it kicked down to the family, it's still very illustrative of who Brigham Young was. Absolutely devoted to Joseph. Now, would he have taken a dressing down from, say, Orson Pratt? No, he would not. Especially when Brigham was the prophet and Orson Pratt was the one questioning him. But he's being very responsible as a scholar.
Gerrit I mean, listen to all the caveats in this sentence. Is a story, okay, so already a story is that that's not saying, hey, let me tell you what happened. A story generally suggests this is a narrative that you got from somewhere that is still carried in the family lore, okay. I don't know how many people hear the word lore and immediately say, oh yeah, that absolutely happened. In fact, the term folklore has kind of a negative connotation in our society. I'm not saying that it should, but it kind of does. It has a negative connotation to most people. The lore of Brigham Young's descendants, but so far as I know, it's never recorded. So he's telling you, first of all, this is a story that was just passed on through oral tradition. I can't find any source that talks about it at the time, and I can't find any other source that talks about it, but this is what the family says happened.
Gerrit I mean, listen to all the caveats in this sentence. Is a story, okay, so already a story is that that's not saying, hey, let me tell you what happened. A story generally suggests this is a narrative that you got from somewhere that is still carried in the family lore, okay. I don't know how many people hear the word lore and immediately say, oh yeah, that absolutely happened. In fact, the term folklore has kind of a negative connotation in our society. I'm not saying that it should, but it kind of does. It has a negative connotation to most people. The lore of Brigham Young's descendants, but so far as I know, it's never recorded. So he's telling you, first of all, this is a story that was just passed on through oral tradition. I can't find any source that talks about it at the time, and I can't find any other source that talks about it, but this is what the family says happened.
Gerrit And, you know, then he goes on to tell the story and, you know, uses it to prove the point. Brigham could have responded. Now look, haven't you read that you're not supposed to rebuke in public but only in private, Joseph? Which is pretty good. Or Brother Joseph, doesn't it say something in the Revelations about persuasion and longsuffering and gentleness and meekness? Or you're dead wrong. It was not so. But he said none of the above. In a voice everyone could tell was sincere, he said simply, Joseph, what do you want me to do? And the story says, now again, he keeps qualifying it over and over and over again. This is a story. I don't have a source, right? Says the prophet burst into tears, came down on the stand through his arms around Brigham and said, in effect, Brother Brigham, you passed. So when this was told in these talks, I mean, Truman Madsen is in the spirit of a talk.
Gerrit And, you know, then he goes on to tell the story and, you know, uses it to prove the point. Brigham could have responded. Now look, haven't you read that you're not supposed to rebuke in public but only in private, Joseph? Which is pretty good. Or Brother Joseph, doesn't it say something in the Revelations about persuasion and longsuffering and gentleness and meekness? Or you're dead wrong. It was not so. But he said none of the above. In a voice everyone could tell was sincere, he said simply, Joseph, what do you want me to do? And the story says, now again, he keeps qualifying it over and over and over again. This is a story. I don't have a source, right? Says the prophet burst into tears, came down on the stand through his arms around Brigham and said, in effect, Brother Brigham, you passed. So when this was told in these talks, I mean, Truman Madsen is in the spirit of a talk.
Gerrit I honestly don't even know if he had anticipated saying that, but it just kind of came to his mind. You know what? Here's a story that kind of illustrates Brigham Young's devotion to Joseph, right? Or Joseph rebuking someone and then showing love to them. So in his sources in this book, he is going to explain exactly where he gets the story. Recounted to the author, recounted to Truman Madsen, by Elder Hugh B. Brown, whose wife, Zina, was a granddaughter of Brigham Young. And then also references the fact that it was in the same new era article that he had written. So I don't think there's anything wrong with someone teaching something like this with the number of caveats that they have in it. I mean, I do the same thing where I say, I don't know if this is true, but there's a chance that, or so and so, 30 years later said, I mean, I do it all the time because I want my listeners to realize the difference between a really good firsthand primary contemporary source and a later reminiscent account.
Gerrit I honestly don't even know if he had anticipated saying that, but it just kind of came to his mind. You know what? Here's a story that kind of illustrates Brigham Young's devotion to Joseph, right? Or Joseph rebuking someone and then showing love to them. So in his sources in this book, he is going to explain exactly where he gets the story. Recounted to the author, recounted to Truman Madsen, by Elder Hugh B. Brown, whose wife, Zina, was a granddaughter of Brigham Young. And then also references the fact that it was in the same new era article that he had written. So I don't think there's anything wrong with someone teaching something like this with the number of caveats that they have in it. I mean, I do the same thing where I say, I don't know if this is true, but there's a chance that, or so and so, 30 years later said, I mean, I do it all the time because I want my listeners to realize the difference between a really good firsthand primary contemporary source and a later reminiscent account.
Gerrit And I think we talked about on a previous podcast how reminiscences can sometimes get out of hand. Now, that doesn't mean they always do, and it doesn't mean that there's no truth to them. But sometimes you will have people saying that they remember an event that they literally weren't born for. Now, that's not the case here, but I mean, you will have people do that. Now, that's not always malicious, but it is a fact that historians deal with.
Gerrit And I think we talked about on a previous podcast how reminiscences can sometimes get out of hand. Now, that doesn't mean they always do, and it doesn't mean that there's no truth to them. But sometimes you will have people saying that they remember an event that they literally weren't born for. Now, that's not the case here, but I mean, you will have people do that. Now, that's not always malicious, but it is a fact that historians deal with.
Richard So what about the fact that here's a public dressing down and Joseph, there's nothing that Joseph, where he mentions it, nothing where Brigham Young mentions it, nothing where anybody who was there mentions it. What does that necessarily mean, if anything?
Richard So what about the fact that here's a public dressing down and Joseph, there's nothing that Joseph, where he mentions it, nothing where Brigham Young mentions it, nothing where anybody who was there mentions it. What does that necessarily mean, if anything?
Gerrit Well, so it does mean that a historian has to give more pause to it. Now look, you cannot be definitive by arguing from the absence of evidence. You simply can't. I mean, Richard was telling me a story the other day that, you know, he had heard a story from someone else. So it's already, I mean, basically we're to a French postmaster at this point. Richard doesn't even deserve an acre. He was being told the story about a story about someone else. We're like so far removed that this is by rumor at this point.
Gerrit Well, so it does mean that a historian has to give more pause to it. Now look, you cannot be definitive by arguing from the absence of evidence. You simply can't. I mean, Richard was telling me a story the other day that, you know, he had heard a story from someone else. So it's already, I mean, basically we're to a French postmaster at this point. Richard doesn't even deserve an acre. He was being told the story about a story about someone else. We're like so far removed that this is by rumor at this point.
Richard Yeah, but it was a funny story.
Richard Yeah, but it was a funny story.
Gerrit Of someone who in a position of power, in a position of authority, had very publicly given a dressing down to another member of the ward council. Had, had called out this person in a public way and told them what a terrible job they did and how, and how wrong it was of them. And it was pretty, it was, it was hard on the ears for other people involved, right? Right. Now that event, I'm assuming happened. Now it is by rumor because it's coming from you and, you know, but it's probably a lie, but that event happened. And yet, do you think anyone wrote that down on their journal?
Gerrit Of someone who in a position of power, in a position of authority, had very publicly given a dressing down to another member of the ward council. Had, had called out this person in a public way and told them what a terrible job they did and how, and how wrong it was of them. And it was pretty, it was, it was hard on the ears for other people involved, right? Right. Now that event, I'm assuming happened. Now it is by rumor because it's coming from you and, you know, but it's probably a lie, but that event happened. And yet, do you think anyone wrote that down on their journal?
Richard No.
Richard No.
Gerrit So would that mean, because we can't find an original account of it in someone's journal, that the event never happened at all?
Gerrit So would that mean, because we can't find an original account of it in someone's journal, that the event never happened at all?
Richard No, but I mean, if you were to, you know, if we were to subpoena text records, you might find text evidence.
Richard No, but I mean, if you were to, you know, if we were to subpoena text records, you might find text evidence.
Gerrit Maybe.
Gerrit Maybe.
Richard That was...
Gerrit And what if we never did? What if a hundred years passed and all you had was in that person's family history, oh man, when dad was in a bishopric, he got, he got totally, you know, waylaid publicly about what a terrible bishopric member he was.
Richard That was...
Gerrit And what if we never did? What if a hundred years passed and all you had was in that person's family history, oh man, when dad was in a bishopric, he got, he got totally, you know, waylaid publicly about what a terrible bishopric member he was.
Richard Yeah, the story is about me.
Richard Yeah, the story is about me.
Gerrit Sorry, Brady. So the point is, you can't prove definitively that an event did not happen with the absence of evidence. You simply cannot, which is part of the problem when you deal with all of these things surrounding reminiscent accounts, family histories of things that happened in the past. Because the very fact that they're family histories means they are rarely written down, and they're certainly not written down at the time. Does that mean they didn't happen? Of course not. I have all kinds of experiences that have happened in my life that I did not write down. What if someone else did?
Gerrit Sorry, Brady. So the point is, you can't prove definitively that an event did not happen with the absence of evidence. You simply cannot, which is part of the problem when you deal with all of these things surrounding reminiscent accounts, family histories of things that happened in the past. Because the very fact that they're family histories means they are rarely written down, and they're certainly not written down at the time. Does that mean they didn't happen? Of course not. I have all kinds of experiences that have happened in my life that I did not write down. What if someone else did?
Richard And you have a period in Joseph Smith's life where literally almost everything is being written down, or a lot more of it is, and you have periods where it's not, and so who knows when this could have happened?
Richard And you have a period in Joseph Smith's life where literally almost everything is being written down, or a lot more of it is, and you have periods where it's not, and so who knows when this could have happened?
Gerrit Yeah, I mean, you're assuming it's after Brigham Young was called to the Quorum of the Twelve, but I mean, whether that's a part of the family lore or not, you wouldn't know because it's again, someone recounting something from the past, from the past, from the past. So it's entirely possible that it happened. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but a historian who was, say, writing an academic book on Brigham Young and his interactions with Joseph Smith, if they told that story, they would caveat it just as much as Truman Madsen did. Hey, there's a family story that has been in circulation for a while that I heard a hundred years after the fact that says that. And you would caveat it like that because that's telling your reader, hey, this is the type of source this is. You'll notice I try to do that a lot on this podcast or actually maybe you don't notice it because I'm not doing a very good job of it.
Gerrit Yeah, I mean, you're assuming it's after Brigham Young was called to the Quorum of the Twelve, but I mean, whether that's a part of the family lore or not, you wouldn't know because it's again, someone recounting something from the past, from the past, from the past. So it's entirely possible that it happened. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but a historian who was, say, writing an academic book on Brigham Young and his interactions with Joseph Smith, if they told that story, they would caveat it just as much as Truman Madsen did. Hey, there's a family story that has been in circulation for a while that I heard a hundred years after the fact that says that. And you would caveat it like that because that's telling your reader, hey, this is the type of source this is. You'll notice I try to do that a lot on this podcast or actually maybe you don't notice it because I'm not doing a very good job of it.
Gerrit But maybe you notice that a lot of the times I will say things like, well, at least later, so-and-so said this. Now, that's the cue to the audience. This is not, you know, Joseph Smith wrote this in his journal. This is, you know, someone later said that Joseph said that. It doesn't mean that he didn't say it, but it does mean it's a different type of source. And you'll notice there's all kinds of details we are lacking in this story. When was it? Hard to track something down when you don't know when it was. Kind of like, we know that there was no possible way that there was any Nephites living in North or South America, because you looked literally everywhere all at once. Yes. What about the 99% of unexplored area? Well, other than that.
Gerrit But maybe you notice that a lot of the times I will say things like, well, at least later, so-and-so said this. Now, that's the cue to the audience. This is not, you know, Joseph Smith wrote this in his journal. This is, you know, someone later said that Joseph said that. It doesn't mean that he didn't say it, but it does mean it's a different type of source. And you'll notice there's all kinds of details we are lacking in this story. When was it? Hard to track something down when you don't know when it was. Kind of like, we know that there was no possible way that there was any Nephites living in North or South America, because you looked literally everywhere all at once. Yes. What about the 99% of unexplored area? Well, other than that.
Richard And the four minutes ago, you discovered a place that you thought like six people lived and 30 million lived there. Like six minutes ago, you discovered that.
Richard And the four minutes ago, you discovered a place that you thought like six people lived and 30 million lived there. Like six minutes ago, you discovered that.
Gerrit Yeah, exactly. The whole point is when people want to argue from the absence of evidence, they should never be definitive about it. They should be upfront about it, which is exactly what Truman Madsen was. This story, I haven't been able to find written down. I think because it was never written down. It's a family tradition. It's written down now because he told it in these lectures, and then the book was published from the lectures. The problem is once it gets published in the book, then people are not as careful as he was when he used it. When he used it, he said, just so everyone knows, we don't have a written record of this. This is a family lore. This is a story we don't know. But when people cited it from his book, they simply said, remember the time Brigham Young had Joseph say this to him? And then cited Truman Madsen's book. Now, if someone went and looked up that footnote, they would see, oh, yeah, he's being a little hesitant with this source.
Gerrit Yeah, exactly. The whole point is when people want to argue from the absence of evidence, they should never be definitive about it. They should be upfront about it, which is exactly what Truman Madsen was. This story, I haven't been able to find written down. I think because it was never written down. It's a family tradition. It's written down now because he told it in these lectures, and then the book was published from the lectures. The problem is once it gets published in the book, then people are not as careful as he was when he used it. When he used it, he said, just so everyone knows, we don't have a written record of this. This is a family lore. This is a story we don't know. But when people cited it from his book, they simply said, remember the time Brigham Young had Joseph say this to him? And then cited Truman Madsen's book. Now, if someone went and looked up that footnote, they would see, oh, yeah, he's being a little hesitant with this source.
Gerrit In fact, it's probably the most hesitant thing he says in that entire series of lectures where he caveats it like seven times. But because it was personally related to him by President Brown, I think he feels, you know what, this is an important story to tell. And he really did teach the principle he was trying to teach. So I think you can talk about just about anything. If you're going to tell people what it is you're using for a source, and you let them know that there are some sources that are better or worse. Now, when it comes to Brigham Young, you don't actually have to have that story to know that Brigham is completely devoted to Joseph. And when I say completely devoted, I mean completely devoted. Brigham Young is so devoted, and I know I've told this story before, and you know what? I'm going to tell it again. And I'm going to probably tell it again and again and again, because it's one of my favorite stories. And it's a relatively new story, so you probably haven't seen it very many places.
Gerrit In fact, it's probably the most hesitant thing he says in that entire series of lectures where he caveats it like seven times. But because it was personally related to him by President Brown, I think he feels, you know what, this is an important story to tell. And he really did teach the principle he was trying to teach. So I think you can talk about just about anything. If you're going to tell people what it is you're using for a source, and you let them know that there are some sources that are better or worse. Now, when it comes to Brigham Young, you don't actually have to have that story to know that Brigham is completely devoted to Joseph. And when I say completely devoted, I mean completely devoted. Brigham Young is so devoted, and I know I've told this story before, and you know what? I'm going to tell it again. And I'm going to probably tell it again and again and again, because it's one of my favorite stories. And it's a relatively new story, so you probably haven't seen it very many places.
Gerrit But if you're looking for it, because we don't footnote, because we are not responsible, it's in the Council of Fifty Minutes. The Council of Fifty Record that was published through the Joseph Smith Papers, if you're looking, it's called Administrative Volume 1. If you go to Deseret Book and say, I need Administrative Volume 1 of the Joseph Smith Papers, I mean... Good luck with that. I don't get royalties for that either. But no, I mean, you still have to glut yourself on the premium for me to be able to keep doing this. But in that, Brigham Young is... is going to really talk about, well, he's going to demonstrate his devotion to Joseph. Now, first of all, Brigham says something very clear in the first general conference that follows Joseph's murder. In October of 1844, this is what Brigham Young says.
Gerrit But if you're looking for it, because we don't footnote, because we are not responsible, it's in the Council of Fifty Minutes. The Council of Fifty Record that was published through the Joseph Smith Papers, if you're looking, it's called Administrative Volume 1. If you go to Deseret Book and say, I need Administrative Volume 1 of the Joseph Smith Papers, I mean... Good luck with that. I don't get royalties for that either. But no, I mean, you still have to glut yourself on the premium for me to be able to keep doing this. But in that, Brigham Young is... is going to really talk about, well, he's going to demonstrate his devotion to Joseph. Now, first of all, Brigham says something very clear in the first general conference that follows Joseph's murder. In October of 1844, this is what Brigham Young says.
Gerrit It is the test of our fellowship to believe and confess that Joseph lived and died a prophet of God in good standing. Now, that's one of my favorite sentences of all time. People, even in the church today, I will sometimes encounter people who say things like, well, I think Joseph was a prophet, but once he introduced polygamy, I mean, I think he just, he went off the rails there. Not to Brigham Young. It is the test of our fellowship to believe and confess that Joseph lived and died a prophet of God in good standing. And I don't want anyone to fellowship the twelve who says that Joseph is fallen. Brigham is drawing a pretty clear line in the sand. If you're going to say that Joseph became a fallen prophet because he taught about progression to become like God, because he taught about plural marriage, because he taught about eternal marriage, because he taught about work for the dead, because he taught about temple ordinances, I don't want you.
Gerrit It is the test of our fellowship to believe and confess that Joseph lived and died a prophet of God in good standing. Now, that's one of my favorite sentences of all time. People, even in the church today, I will sometimes encounter people who say things like, well, I think Joseph was a prophet, but once he introduced polygamy, I mean, I think he just, he went off the rails there. Not to Brigham Young. It is the test of our fellowship to believe and confess that Joseph lived and died a prophet of God in good standing. And I don't want anyone to fellowship the twelve who says that Joseph is fallen. Brigham is drawing a pretty clear line in the sand. If you're going to say that Joseph became a fallen prophet because he taught about progression to become like God, because he taught about plural marriage, because he taught about eternal marriage, because he taught about work for the dead, because he taught about temple ordinances, I don't want you.
Gerrit Yeah, I'm trying to keep the church together. If you don't think that Joseph Smith was a prophet, when he was shot in Carthage, then I don't want you. I don't need your fellowship. I don't want your fellowship. It's the true test of fellowship to believe and confess that Joseph lived and died as a prophet. If you don't know whose right it is to receive revelations, I will tell you. It is I. There has never been a man who stood between Joseph and the Twelve. And unless we apostatize, there never will be. If Hyrum had lived, he would not have stood between Joseph and the Twelve. But he would have stood for Joseph. Did Joseph ordain him to take his place? He did. Who was it? It was Hyrum. But Hyrum fell a martyr before Joseph did. If Hyrum had lived, he would have acted for Joseph. And then when we had gone up, the Twelve would have sat down at Joseph's right hand and Hyrum on the left. The Bible says God has set in the church first apostles. Then comes prophets afterwards because the keys and powers of the apostleship are greater than that of prophets.
Gerrit Yeah, I'm trying to keep the church together. If you don't think that Joseph Smith was a prophet, when he was shot in Carthage, then I don't want you. I don't need your fellowship. I don't want your fellowship. It's the true test of fellowship to believe and confess that Joseph lived and died as a prophet. If you don't know whose right it is to receive revelations, I will tell you. It is I. There has never been a man who stood between Joseph and the Twelve. And unless we apostatize, there never will be. If Hyrum had lived, he would not have stood between Joseph and the Twelve. But he would have stood for Joseph. Did Joseph ordain him to take his place? He did. Who was it? It was Hyrum. But Hyrum fell a martyr before Joseph did. If Hyrum had lived, he would have acted for Joseph. And then when we had gone up, the Twelve would have sat down at Joseph's right hand and Hyrum on the left. The Bible says God has set in the church first apostles. Then comes prophets afterwards because the keys and powers of the apostleship are greater than that of prophets.
Gerrit He's trying to teach the fact that what was Joseph ordained to by Peter, James and John? They were ordained to be apostles. Sidney Rigdon cannot hold the keys without Joseph. If he had held the keys without Joseph and been faithful, he would have been with us. If the Twelve did not apostatize, they carry the keys of this kingdom wherever they go. He concluded by requesting all the brethren to tarry with us until all this business is through. So there's Brigham in his first conference after Joseph's murder, saying, if you are going around saying Joseph made mistakes in his doctrine, just get out. I don't want you. I don't want you in the church. Now, that might come across as a little harsh. If some of you do have questions about Joseph Smith or listening, please don't get out of the church. Also, though, if you're going to go create a website that talks about how Joseph Smith isn't a prophet, actually, you know what?
Gerrit He's trying to teach the fact that what was Joseph ordained to by Peter, James and John? They were ordained to be apostles. Sidney Rigdon cannot hold the keys without Joseph. If he had held the keys without Joseph and been faithful, he would have been with us. If the Twelve did not apostatize, they carry the keys of this kingdom wherever they go. He concluded by requesting all the brethren to tarry with us until all this business is through. So there's Brigham in his first conference after Joseph's murder, saying, if you are going around saying Joseph made mistakes in his doctrine, just get out. I don't want you. I don't want you in the church. Now, that might come across as a little harsh. If some of you do have questions about Joseph Smith or listening, please don't get out of the church. Also, though, if you're going to go create a website that talks about how Joseph Smith isn't a prophet, actually, you know what?
Gerrit Do get out of the church. There's a big difference between having questions and publicly declaring that you know the answers to those questions, especially when you don't know. So in the Council of 15 Minutes, sorry, that was in the conference, that was in the General Conference, you can look that up in the Times and Seasons. It's October 15th of 1844. But in the Council of 15 Minutes, they're all sitting around talking about how horribly they've been treated by the federal government. And in that conversation, they talk about, you know, these evils that have happened. And Alvin Babbitt interjects and says, Hey, we need to be careful what we say, because, you know, in Missouri, there were people who were giving sermons talking about how our rights have been taken from us, and it stirred people up and it caused a problem. Well, the meeting goes on until Brigham Young stops the meeting.
Gerrit Do get out of the church. There's a big difference between having questions and publicly declaring that you know the answers to those questions, especially when you don't know. So in the Council of 15 Minutes, sorry, that was in the conference, that was in the General Conference, you can look that up in the Times and Seasons. It's October 15th of 1844. But in the Council of 15 Minutes, they're all sitting around talking about how horribly they've been treated by the federal government. And in that conversation, they talk about, you know, these evils that have happened. And Alvin Babbitt interjects and says, Hey, we need to be careful what we say, because, you know, in Missouri, there were people who were giving sermons talking about how our rights have been taken from us, and it stirred people up and it caused a problem. Well, the meeting goes on until Brigham Young stops the meeting.
Gerrit And he stops the meeting and addresses that very thing. He says, Elder Babbitt, when he was speaking about inflammatory speeches, was making a reference to Joseph. He says, I know that he had Joseph in his mind, and no man can ever speak against Joseph in my presence, but I shall tell him of it. Brigham Young was absolutely devoted to Joseph Smith. That's what every source we have says. He didn't move west because everyone wants to live next to a salt lake in the middle of the desert. He moved west because Joseph said they needed to move west. He didn't maintain the program of building temples at their huge cost and expense because it was a great way to bring people together in their poverty. He did it because Joseph Smith taught it and revealed it.
Gerrit And he stops the meeting and addresses that very thing. He says, Elder Babbitt, when he was speaking about inflammatory speeches, was making a reference to Joseph. He says, I know that he had Joseph in his mind, and no man can ever speak against Joseph in my presence, but I shall tell him of it. Brigham Young was absolutely devoted to Joseph Smith. That's what every source we have says. He didn't move west because everyone wants to live next to a salt lake in the middle of the desert. He moved west because Joseph said they needed to move west. He didn't maintain the program of building temples at their huge cost and expense because it was a great way to bring people together in their poverty. He did it because Joseph Smith taught it and revealed it.
Gerrit He didn't reject the doctrine of mankind becoming like God because Joseph Smith taught it. He didn't throw out work for the dead or temple endowments because Joseph Smith taught it. As Brigham would later say, to carry out Joseph's measures is sweeter to me than the honeycomb. While Joseph was living, it seemed as though he was hurried by the Lord all the time, and especially for the last year. It seemed he laid out work for this church would last them 20 years to carry out. I used to wonder why it was that he used to be hurried so, not supposing that he was going to die. But now I understand the reason. He is certain that what their job is as a church is to follow the Prophet Joseph Smith. And of course, you all know the quote where he says, I feel like shouting, Hallelujah all the time that I knew the Prophet Joseph Smith.
Gerrit He didn't reject the doctrine of mankind becoming like God because Joseph Smith taught it. He didn't throw out work for the dead or temple endowments because Joseph Smith taught it. As Brigham would later say, to carry out Joseph's measures is sweeter to me than the honeycomb. While Joseph was living, it seemed as though he was hurried by the Lord all the time, and especially for the last year. It seemed he laid out work for this church would last them 20 years to carry out. I used to wonder why it was that he used to be hurried so, not supposing that he was going to die. But now I understand the reason. He is certain that what their job is as a church is to follow the Prophet Joseph Smith. And of course, you all know the quote where he says, I feel like shouting, Hallelujah all the time that I knew the Prophet Joseph Smith.
Gerrit So while I can't definitively discuss this story, at least I can tell you where it comes from. It comes from Brigham Young's family descendants. And that's how it gets into the Latter-day Saint understanding. Did it happen exactly the way the descendants have passed it down? I don't know. Could there have been some different details? Certainly, there's details we don't have. In either case, I believe were Brigham Young to be rebuked by Joseph, it would not in any way have stayed Brigham Young's faith. Because Brigham Young was first and foremost, a follower of Jesus through Joseph Smith. He knew about Jesus because of Joseph, and he was going to continue to know about Jesus because of Joseph. And he will credit Joseph for his testimony the remainder of his life. So thank you so much for joining us. We'll try to not answer more questions next week, which is I think what we're doing at this point, right?
Gerrit So while I can't definitively discuss this story, at least I can tell you where it comes from. It comes from Brigham Young's family descendants. And that's how it gets into the Latter-day Saint understanding. Did it happen exactly the way the descendants have passed it down? I don't know. Could there have been some different details? Certainly, there's details we don't have. In either case, I believe were Brigham Young to be rebuked by Joseph, it would not in any way have stayed Brigham Young's faith. Because Brigham Young was first and foremost, a follower of Jesus through Joseph Smith. He knew about Jesus because of Joseph, and he was going to continue to know about Jesus because of Joseph. And he will credit Joseph for his testimony the remainder of his life. So thank you so much for joining us. We'll try to not answer more questions next week, which is I think what we're doing at this point, right?
Gerrit We just, we tell people we'll eventually...
Gerrit We just, we tell people we'll eventually...
Richard Next week, Apostles and Apostates, part two.
Richard Next week, Apostles and Apostates, part two.
Gerrit There's no possible way we're doing that.
Gerrit There's no possible way we're doing that.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.
Quote board
Make a share card from any lineThat was the worst flex I've ever seen in my life.
You're the Travis Tritt of LDS podcasters. You always have the best of intentions.
If the Prophet Joseph Smith said it, it became true.
Brigham Young would have killed himself before he killed Joseph Smith. Brigham Young loved Joseph.
The reality is, whenever someone presents a historical source and they make it seem like it's black and white and cut and dried, it's not. It just isn't. Almost nothing is.
It was a disaster in an attempt to be mildly romantic. That's how I know that Truman Madsen was a better dancer.
I mean, I gained a testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith through prayer, but I gained an understanding of who Joseph was by listening to those tapes.
So the point is, you can't prove definitively that an event did not happen with the absence of evidence.
There's a big difference between having questions and publicly declaring that you know the answers to those questions, especially when you don't know.
Source shelf
15 sources cited on air · verses link to the scriptures, Joseph Smith’s documents to the Joseph Smith Papersscripture
Acts 9:6
what will thou have me do?
Carl's Come Follow Me reading, where Saul asks what the Lord would have him do, reminded him of the Brigham story.
other
Brigham Young's journals through the Nauvoo period, annotated edition (Brigham Young Center Foundation)
Gerrit's forthcoming project, which shows how devoted Brigham was to Joseph.
revelation
Doctrine and Covenants 76
Brigham struggled with it because it did away with the traditional hell; another listener question about it is promised.
sermon
Brigham Young on his reaction to D&C 76 (source not named on air)
I didn't reject it, but I could not understand it.
Brigham's patience with a revelation he didn't yet understand.
journal
Wilford Woodruff's journal, on Brigham hearing of Joseph's death
Brigham took to his bed and wept all night, one of many reasons the claim that he had Joseph killed is absurd.
article
Ensign articles in the early 2000s citing the story (not named on air)
Where many members met the story; Gerrit uses them to show how to trace a citation back.
other
Truman G. Madsen, lectures on the Prophet Joseph Smith
Where most Latter-day Saints, including both hosts on their missions, first heard the story.
sermon
Hugh B. Brown, "God Is the Gardener" and "Profile of a Prophet"
Gerrit says these were the two greatest talks he heard as a young person.
article
Truman G. Madsen, tribute to Hugh B. Brown, New Era, April 1976
The story of Brigham Young receiving a lacing from the Prophet Joseph Smith, a deliberate and public blow to the very core of the man, his pride.
The earliest printed version: a story Brown learned from his wife Zina, Brigham's granddaughter.
book
Truman G. Madsen, Joseph Smith the Prophet
Illustrative of this story, still carried in the family lore of Brigham Young's descendants, but so far as I know, never recorded.
The book of the lectures, with footnotes Madsen added; he calls the story family lore, never recorded.
revelation
Doctrine and Covenants 121:43
Madsen cites it for Joseph showing an increase of love after a rebuke.
sermon
Brigham Young, October 1844 general conference, Times and Seasons (October 15, 1844)
It is the test of our fellowship to believe and confess that Joseph lived and died a prophet of God in good standing.
Brigham's line in the sand after the martyrdom.
scripture
1 Corinthians 12:28
The Bible says God has set in the church first apostles.
Brigham quotes the Bible's order, apostles first, to explain the Twelve's keys (verse identified, not cited on air).
record
Council of Fifty minutes, Joseph Smith Papers, Administrative Records volume 1
no man can ever speak against Joseph in my presence, but I shall tell him of it.
Brigham answers a comment about inflammatory speeches. Gerrit names the speaker as Alvin Babbitt; the council member was Almon W. Babbitt.
sermon
Brigham Young on carrying out Joseph's measures (source not named on air)
to carry out Joseph's measures is sweeter to me than the honeycomb.
Brigham saw following Joseph as the church's job.
Episode quiz
Pass to stamp your passportQuestion 1 of 8Score 0
What scripture from Come Follow Me reminded Carl of the Brigham Young story?
Fun with Numbers
This episode, counted from its transcript1:04:09long
13.8 minbefore the topic starts
15sources read or named
4scripture passages
7different years mentioned
0dollar amounts said
From 1693 to 1983
Every year mentioned in the episode. Tap one to jump to it.
Percentages said on air
Putting numbers to words
All 9,743 words of the automatic transcript, counted against a word list for each theme. It shows how much a theme comes up, not what was said about it. See the lists
What this episode talks about more than usual
- Prophets and priesthood39 mentions, 2.3 times the show’s usual rate
- Family and marriage36 mentions, 1.9 times the show’s usual rate
Names said most
Joseph counts any Joseph.
Joseph 97Brigham Young 68Hyrum Smith 5Jesus Christ 3Wilford Woodruff 2Abraham Lincoln 2
Signature words
Said often here and in few other episodes.
Madsen 19lecture 13postmaster 11descendant 8lore 7dancer 5
More from this episode
Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.
Claim check
What critics say, and what the episode foundThere's a documented record of Joseph publicly rebuking Brigham, who answered, "Joseph, what do you want me to do?"
If no one wrote an event down at the time, it didn't happen.
Brigham Young had Joseph Smith killed.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.
Take it to class
Ready to copy into a lesson or a textTo check a story, follow the citation back, then follow that source's citation, until you find where it really began.
The story of Joseph rebuking Brigham is family lore, never written down at the time, and Truman Madsen told it with careful caveats; it still shows who Brigham was.
Absence of evidence can't prove an event didn't happen, but a later family story is a different kind of source from a journal entry written that day.
Brigham drew the line clearly after the martyrdom: "It is the test of our fellowship to believe and confess that Joseph lived and died a prophet of God in good standing."
Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.
Banter bin
The running jokes, for people who skip aheadStill not Apostles and ApostatesThree weeks in a row of not doing part two, closed with Richard's promise and Gerrit's "There's no possible way we're doing that" (0:46, 63:35).
Carl and his extra U'sThe polite Canadian writes in the King's English, with U's everywhere and an apology in the PS (1:57, 6:01, 7:18).
54-40 or fightCarl's epic drop, appreciated by about five listeners, and a premium topic they'll never get to (5:20, 25:32, 38:28).
The Hugh Finlay mailbag and Pierre de SilvaGerrit corrects the first postmaster of Quebec, flexes on which Treaty of Paris, and does Missouri accents (7:38, 9:24, 10:32).
Rex's elders quorum presidentNow maybe a fabrication by Rex; start at 13 minutes, it counts as a download (4:34, 13:34, 25:35).
LeDuc, AlbertaRichard plans a Calgary Stampede trip to buy LeDuc Roughnecks gear at a Canadian Tire, where babies are put on hockey teams before their mothers hug them (2:55, 4:07).
Production meetingsZero have occurred, but they involve McDonald's, Johnny Cash and NCAA teams they don't bet on (24:19).
The cruise ship dip and Oops I Did It AgainProof Truman Madsen was a better dancer (27:31).
Filthy lucre and the premium sideCarl's accusation, the Stamp Act and Andrew Oliver, and a book Gerrit gets no royalties from (7:10, 38:38, 54:58).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag
Your question could be next week’s episodeQuestions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
General ConferenceGeneral Conference talks that cite a scripture read in this episode.
In General Conference
Talks from the latest General Conference that cite a scripture this episode reads or names on airSummaries, themes and lessons for every talk are on What Did They Say?
Go deeperWhere to read more.
Go deeper
Deep dives the episode points towardBrigham Young's only moment of doubt, after the Kirtland Safety Society collapse, and why he kept talking about it (17:16).
Hugh B. Brown's talks "God Is the Gardener" and "Profile of a Prophet" (29:42).
The Council of Fifty minutes in the Joseph Smith Papers, Administrative Records volume 1 (54:58).
Brigham's October 1844 conference sermon on the keys of the Twelve and Sidney Rigdon, a first step into the succession questions listeners keep sending (57:11).
SOT Litner · S3E29.