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S3E32 · "Mormon Hell"
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Standard of Truth · Season 3 · Episode 32 · 1:13:48

"Mormon Hell"

D&C 19 teaches that "endless" punishment is called endless because God is endless, not because the suffering never stops.

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The question ·
if there is no hell, why does it get mentioned so much in the Book of Mormon?
Emily (listener)

Richard vows to wear doctor's scrubs to class once he finishes his PhD, and the real Rex's elders quorum president writes that the detours are what keep people listening. Emily asks why the Book of Mormon talks so much about hell if Latter-day Saints believe hell doesn't last forever. Gerrit explains how other Christians see hell, including annihilationism and the problem of a God who creates souls knowing they'll burn forever. He reads D&C 19, where endless punishment is God's punishment because God is endless, and contrasts it with Jonathan Edwards's sermon about a God who abhors sinners. D&C 76 and Joseph's later sermons show suffering is real but not eternal for most, and the hosts lovingly admit this answer is only intermediate level.

Who comes upJoseph SmithMartin HarrisJonathan EdwardsAlvin SmithNephi
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Richard promises to wear scrubs to class once he earns his PhD in business.

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Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor, nearly doctor, but not quite doctor, LeDuc.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. We do receive many emails where people ask the question, are you a doctor yet? Have you finished yet? And-
Gerrit Do you think it's because they have a medical emergency of some kind?
Richard Well, there's a couple of things. First of all, when I do earn the PhD-
Gerrit Everyone will know.
Richard Yeah, you'll know. I'm gonna send it in smoke screen, I'm gonna make sure that I mention it here. We're gonna have our friend Brady change the intro.
Gerrit It'll be like a carpet bombing of, he is now a doctor?
Richard 100%.
Gerrit Are you going to require everyone you know to call you doctor?
Richard My children? Absolutely. Everyone. Everyone that I've ever met.
Gerrit Well, I mean, like when you fill out like a reservation form, and it has a place to put in a title?
Richard Yes. Also, in addition to that, in the class that I teach at the University of Utah, I'm gonna, you know, I wear a regular suit and tie, whatever, except when I earn my PhD, then I'm gonna come and scrubs that next class.
Gerrit You're gonna wear medical doctor's clothes, even though you have a doctorate in business.
Richard It's the only way that people will know. Anyway, Gerrit, we have a couple of emails to get to in the Phebe Draper mailbag here.
Gerrit We're giving up on the Canadian mailbag?
Richard Yes, yes. So this comes to us from Rex's elders quorum president. The subject is actually hashtag Real Rex's elders quorum president.
Gerrit I think he was afraid that millions of people were listening.
Richard He thinks this is more popular than it is. Had to hashtag that I'm the real thing. It is funny though. I feel like anyone impersonating him could have also just easily put a hashtag.
Gerrit Yeah, we didn't check this.
Richard Yeah, not at all. Anyway, claiming falsely to be Rex's elders quorum president. First, because the people cry out, I will report that Rex happily serves the Lord in many ways. He is one of my counselors. Actually, I have to say he's my favorite counselor among those who are fans of the Standard of Truth podcast.
Gerrit That's very qualified, isn't it?
Richard Oh, it is.
Gerrit Of my counselors who listen to you.
Richard Well, so why doesn't another counselor listen to us?
Gerrit Well, I mean, the real question is, Rex is Elder's Corp President. Why did you call someone who wouldn't listen to our podcast? Where's the inspiration of that?
Richard So he says, sadly, we are losing him to a reverse Oregon Trail event that is decimating Oregon's wards and stakes.
Gerrit So, like, people are being cured of dysentery?
Richard Well, I think they're driven back.
Gerrit Oh, they're going back.
Richard They're going back. He's going to Independence, I guess.
Gerrit Well, you got to get beachfront property.
Richard He said, well, this will likely be written about by future church historians when the US. West Coast slides off into the Pacific, taking only three active church members. That's very funny. Really, truly, Rick's Rex is the best. He goes on to say a lot of really nice and wonderful things.
Gerrit We'll skip those.
Richard We'll skip all of those things. He does say, thinking about it now, you're talking about the silliness, right? Saying that we're trying to mark how far we go. Right, before he has to start listening.
Gerrit Before Rex's elders quorum president. Rex listens to the whole thing. Right. But Rex's elders quorum president listens.
Richard He says, well, he talked about that, saying that he didn't realize that Rex would enjoy it as much as he does. Now, Rex's elders quorum president loves it, always has.
Gerrit I see.
Richard But he didn't know that Rex...
Gerrit He was giving a warning for other people.
Richard That's right. And thinking about it now, your silliness and non-part two digressions have to be an essential part of the attraction that keeps all of us listening. It's like gambling addiction that Richard doesn't really have. Gambling is exciting because of the anticipation of an event that fails four times out of five, right? Well, I wouldn't know. Rex's elders quorum president. I'd like to refer you to President Hinckley's April 2005 conference address on gambling.
Gerrit That being said, the early lines on who's going to win the NBA Championship next year are really, really interesting.
Richard Those rare times you stay on topic are like the big payouts. So we eagerly listen to every left turn, even when it takes us onto a topic of dancing on cruise ships, because we have absolute faith in you. We know that eventually you're going to learn something, and it's going to be awesome. Worth every minute. I didn't even stop listening to your podcast to go check out Truman Madsen's lectures. Maybe I would have, but I didn't today because I listened to them probably 20 to 30 times in the late 80s and 90s. Truly priceless. By the way, we do have confirmed that Truman Madsen was an excellent dancer.
Gerrit Yeah, so remember I asked Barney to let us know and Richard guessed it. He's like, look, I assume he was an amazing dancer. He was great at everything else. Barney let us know, sent a message to the podcast and said, Oh yeah, incredible dancer. So it just makes us feel worse about ourselves at this point. I mean, in fairness, Richard could dance if his back wasn't made out of a saltine cracker, I'm guessing.
Richard He says a lot of just very wonderful things goes on. It was very funny to read his email. The email was very kind and very nice and very faith filled. And so to Rex's elders quorum president, we say thank you very much for the kind email. We're glad that you like it and that you listen and that you share it with half of your elders quorum presidency.
Gerrit And to Rex, we're excited that you can stake out a nice big claim for us there when the time comes. If you're going to Independence, now's the time.
Richard Thank you so much, Rex's elders quorum president. Gerrit, where are we at time-wise? I just want to...
Gerrit Well, you don't need to mark it anymore because he said that he's fine with it.
Richard I feel like he's just saying that to be nice. And I feel like there's a lot more Rex's elders quorum Presidents out there.
Gerrit Maybe he can gamble with that then.
Richard So this next email comes to us from Emily. The subject is, what the hell?
Gerrit With a question mark. No, did we just have to... No, no, no. Are we now explicit?
Richard It's a place.
Gerrit When did this happen?
Richard She said that her dad suggested that subject line.
Gerrit I have no doubt that her dad suggested that subject line.
Richard So she said, hello to our favorite tour guys. So Emily went with us on a tour, on a tour, we've done one, but on the tour that we've done. Tour's coming, details on their way.
Gerrit We're going to try to do two next year.
Richard First full week of June, we're going Gettysburg and then the New York and Pennsylvania and Ohio sites. And then second week in June, we're doing Missouri and Illinois. We wanted it to be a little later in the summer.
Gerrit Yeah, that's why we figured we'll do Missouri as close to 100 degrees with humidity that we can. It's for everybody. I want them to understand the misery that was Missouri. They don't get to go when it's April.
Richard Yeah, the tour will be sponsored by Gold Bond dedicated powder. Alright, although the answer may not be simple, my question today is, if there is no hell, why does it get mentioned so much in the Book of Mormon? For example, 1st Nephi 14.3, And that great pit, which hath been digged for them by that great and abominable church, which was founded by the devil and his children, that he might lead away the souls of men down to hell. Yea, that great pit, which hath been digged for the destruction of men, shall be filled by those who digged it unto their utter destruction, saith the Lamb of God. Not the destruction of the soul, save it be the casting of it into that hell, which hath no end. 1 Nephi 15.29 And I said unto them that it was a representation of that awful hell, which the angels said unto me was prepared for the wicked. I would love your insights on this matter. Keep up the good work. I appreciate the time and effort put into the podcast, as it deepens my understanding and knowledge, and helps me to be able to better share the Gospel with others.
Richard Emily. So, Gerrit, the question to you is, why are you calling Nephi a liar?
Gerrit I don't know that I've ever said the words.
Richard You've implied it.
Gerrit Yeah. Well, I think only when I was reading the Isaiah chapters. So, this is a very good question, because we have talked about on this podcast, and I'm sure we talked about it a little bit on the tour, perhaps, or...
Richard You're talking about Latter-day St. Hel is one of your favorite topics.
Gerrit It really is one of my favorite topics, in part because it's one of the most unique doctrines that we have. And so, we talk about it a lot. So, if you're wondering what we're talking about right now, in true helping Rex's elders quorum president fashion, you could go back and listen to the various podcasts we have on The Vision, which is Doctrine and Covenants, section 76, which will kind of set the tone for that. But this is a very unique doctrine. And in fact, Latter-day Saint theology, when it comes to the afterlife and the pre-mortal life, they're two of the major things that set us apart as a religion from other Christian denominations. I mean, that we believe in an afterlife, okay, nearly all other Christians believe that there's an afterlife of some kind for everybody. We were just talking the other day about one of my favorite doctrinal names of a false doctrine. We don't believe this, but yeah.
Gerrit Of annihilationism, which is, it's got to be the coolest sounding doctrine there is.
Richard Yeah, so if you were to rank hells, you would probably put Mormon hell at the highest. It's the best.
Gerrit Well, I mean, probably, yeah, I mean.
Richard Second, Jehovah's Witness Hell?
Gerrit Jehovah's Witness Hell is pretty good.
Richard Yeah.
Gerrit Yeah, I mean, it's not a bad place to be. It's good work if you can get it.
Richard So explain to, I mean, what is Jehovah's Witness Hell?
Gerrit Yeah, well, that's the doctrine of annihilationism. And that is, so the way to, the problem for Christians is that they have immortal spirits, right? I mean, some of you are thinking, no, I'm pretty happy that I have one. No, no, no, you have to listen, listen to the logic here. If God created you out of nothing, okay, so you didn't exist before God created you. And remember, all Christians believe that that creation took place either when you were conceived or at some point before you were born or when you were born, but always in the process of the pregnancy, okay? There literally is no pre-mortal life for any other Christian. No Christian believes that. Now, if you want to get super technical, right now we have the Latter-day Saint speed dialing the podcast on the number that doesn't exist, saying, what about Jeremiah before I formed the in thy mother's womb? I knew thee.
Gerrit Because that's what we would say on our missions because we weren't trained in theology. And so we didn't know what other people thought about that. And frankly, the response from a Christian to that scripture is not that, oh, that there's a pre-mortal life. It's that I'm God, I know everything. So yeah, I knew you before I created you because I created you. You know what I mean? It's not the Mike Tyson uppercut of pre-mortal life doctrine that we think that it is. And I'm talking about Mike Tyson's punch out. When you get to the end and he does the uppercut one time, but he kind of flashes a little bit before he does.
Richard Yeah. Well, I never got that far.
Gerrit Did ball bull stop you? Or was it Sotopapinsky?
Richard It was Sandman.
Gerrit I never got past Sandman. Well, he was from Philadelphia. You know what?
Richard I'm going to pull up some stats on Mike Tyson's punch out right now.
Gerrit To find out.
Richard Let's do something completely different.
Gerrit I can tell you right now where Sotopapinsky is from.
Richard So I have an immortal spirit, immortal soul. This is great if I'm going to heaven, but less so if I'm born in China in 1000 AD.
Gerrit Yeah, exactly. Or literally anywhere. Or in China today. I mean, the reality is, if God creates me out of nothing, but in creating me out of nothing, creates me with an immortal soul, then you deal with the problem that goes all the way back to Luther and Calvin, right? If God knows everything, which of course all Christians believe God knows everything, and God created me out of nothing, then that means when God created me, however many years ago, right? If I'm 45, you know, God created me 45 years ago. That means that when God created me 45 years ago, he knew at the moment he created me that I would never have faith in Jesus. I guess in my case, in the real Jesus, in the right Jesus, right? And so he knew at the moment of creation that I would be condemned to hell forever, right?
Gerrit So then it kind of begs the question, why did God create me? First, you can ask the first question, why did God create me at all? If he knew that I was going to burn in hell for billions upon billions and for eternity, why did he create me? If you say he didn't know that, then he's not all-powerful. If you say he could have decided not to create me, he's all-powerful. So he could stop me from burning in hell, but he doesn't. And then you have to ask the question, why? Now, of course, the Christian answer to that would be, well, because you're a profligate sinner, and you're going to burn in hell by your own merits, and how dare you question the great wisdom of God? Now, that's great when you're trying to win an argument, when, you know, you're like trying to be God's hype man, but it's not actually that great when you get down into the deeper level of it. God already knew that I wasn't going to be worshipping the right Jesus.
Gerrit He already knew that. So why, when he created me, did he give me an immortal soul? Again, if God is all-merciful, God is all-kind, God is all-loving, then why would he create me out of nothing? So he didn't have to make me, he didn't have to do anything. But he did, and knowing that I would burn in hell for trillions upon trillions upon trillions of years, that I would have this mere speck of mortal existence, and then the remainder, worlds without end, I would suffer interminably in hell, why did he create me at all? Now, yeah, you can use some word salad stuff and say things like, well, it's glory of God.
Richard Yeah, that's the go-to.
Gerrit Yeah, it's great glory of God. What a wonderful glory. I mean, I don't know how many trillion years you are into burning in hell before you say, you know what? Couldn't God have brought himself glory?
Richard I don't know.
Gerrit In a way that wasn't me burning in hell for a trillion years?
Richard I feel like it wouldn't take that long for you to turn on him.
Gerrit Right, so it wouldn't take a trillion years?
Richard Yeah, day two, you're like, you know what?
Gerrit It would be kind of like what happens when they close one of the windows at your local DMV. You've been waiting for an hour. They have only two lanes open and then they close the second lane.
Richard Well, so that's actually one of the beauties of Jehovah Witness trying to answer this problem, right? It's like, boy, this seems pretty unfair.
Gerrit So, it's a pretty big problem, right? Because what? God's all-powerful and you can't change that. So, you can't change the fact that God's all-powerful. So, what's the problem? Well, the problem is not everyone is saved. Okay, I don't think I can change that either, right? Because it sure seems like not everyone is saved.
Richard Yeah, pretty clear in the Bible.
Gerrit It seems like only some people are going to heaven. So, if God's all-powerful and not everybody is saved, you can't see my fingers I'm holding up. We should really do a video cast of this just so people could mock it. Then, I really only have one other piece of the puzzle that I can move around the board, right? If God's all-powerful and not everyone is saved, then the other part of the puzzle I can examine is, well, the only reason someone burns in hell forever is because they have an immortal soul. So, what if they don't have an immortal soul?
Richard Or they do on the positive side, but not on the negative side.
Gerrit Well, and that's, so that is the doctrine of annihilation, at least as Jehovah's Witnesses teach it. But, I mean, there's lots of variations on this. And that is that you don't really have an immortal soul, right? So you, what you have is the breath of life. That God breathed the breath of life into you. This power of God essentially animating you. And that's what gives you motion. That's what makes you who you are. It's what gives you, it's what gives you a spirit. For lack of a better term, they wouldn't use that term. And those who die worshiping God properly, well, they are going to be resurrected. And in that resurrection, they are going to inhabit the earth, an earth that's renewed into paradise. It'll be like the Garden of Eden. And they're going to live there forever. So you're going to live in a Garden of Eden, paradise, earth for all the rest of time.
Gerrit If you were righteous. Those who were not righteous, the lights just go out. The breath of life is taken out of them when they die, and that's it. There isn't a hell, there's just non-existence. Which of course, those of you who do know your Book of Mormon, and I'm guessing Emily does, since she was just quoting it to us as she condemned me, that this is exactly what sinners in the Book of Mormon on a couple of occasions wish. You know, that the rocks could fall on them and hide their sins, that they would cease to exist, both body and spirit, rather than face their God. Right? So it is an interesting way of trying to get around this, what appears to be a paradox. It appears to be a paradox that God is all-loving, God is all-knowing, God is all-powerful, literally almost everyone He creates is going to burn in hell forever.
Richard So you have a couple of exceptions then, but then the vast majority of the rest of Protestants and Catholics, is it a photo finish for third, or does someone...
Gerrit Well, I mean, at least...
Richard Because they do have... Our mortal soul exists for the rest of the group.
Gerrit Yeah, exactly.
Richard The majority of Christianity.
Gerrit And in fairness to the rest of other Christians, you would find that most Christian theologians would, at best, say that Jehovah's Witnesses are radical Christians, and at worst, would say they're not. Now, I'm not saying that. I'm not one of those people. I'm just saying what... I probably don't have to tell any Jehovah's Witnesses listening.
Richard We're huge in Ohio.
Gerrit Yeah, it's in Florida. Huge in New York, huge in Florida. I don't have to tell any Jehovah's Witnesses listening that other Christians sometimes accuse them of not being a Christian. I don't have to tell any Latter-day Saints listening. You may find it surprised that at times, other Christians will question your belief in Jesus. Yeah, so it's a standard belief among Christians that hell is the place of everyone who does not accept Jesus. Now, of course, in Catholicism, there's more things than just accepting Jesus. There's the sacraments that need to be performed. But still, those sacraments are dependent on whether or not someone accepts Jesus. So that's the reason why this becomes kind of an issue. It becomes a problem because once you say that you have to have faith in Jesus in order to be saved, the reality is almost no one who's ever lived on Earth in the history of the world or even today, percentage-wise, has faith in Jesus.
Gerrit So that means almost everyone's going to hell. So it kind of matters a lot, then, what hell is like and who goes there because almost everyone's going there. And this is the reason why we bring this up on the podcast a couple of times, because Latter-day Saints are very often accused of believing that only Mormons go to heaven.
Richard It's always a Missourian. It looks like headquarters are in Warwick, New York.
Gerrit Oh, how about that.
Richard Which is close to both Ohio and Florida.
Gerrit Do you want to maybe send some literature out for our listeners?
Richard Apparently they chose New York to escape, obviously, high taxes, so that's good for them. Well, they're not paying taxes anyway, is it?
Gerrit That's why you've got to be a religion. Anyway, so this is one of the more radical aspects of Latter-day Saint theology, and as we've talked about with The Vision and with Joseph Smith and Dr. Hammett, section 76, it's such a radical part of Latter-day Saint theology that it causes people to leave the church. Now, if you get into a high theological discussion with a theologian from another religion, a pastor or something like that, this actually is a topic that can come up, that Latter-day Saints have a false belief in the afterlife. It's not just, as a Latter-day Saint would think, that because we think there's three different degrees of glory. The idea that there's different levels of salvation, other Christians have postulated those kinds of things, because, you know, the Lord does say that people are going to be rewarded according to their works. Now, usually they take that in the form of, you know, people who've done better works are going to have more crowns to throw at the feet of Jesus for eternity, which I mean, I don't know if there's like a fire sale on crowns at the Celestial Kingdom Walmart or whatever you need to be able to throw more crowns.
Gerrit But at any rate, you'll have a better ability to glory Jesus as you worship him forever because of the works that you perform. So that's not as radical. Now, of course, what we claim that you can be because of the Celestial glory, that you can become like God. Now, that's a real problem for Christians. That's probably for another podcast because we want to be able to answer Emily's question and also have this make the air.
Richard Yeah, we'll do that when we get to King Follett's sermon.
Gerrit Yeah, we promised Brady, I think, probably three years ago we'd do that.
Richard Before we started. He actually helped us to start this by purchasing equipment, and it was all conditional on doing those episodes.
Gerrit Yeah, in fact, I think he said, I'll get a guy to do the opening spot for your podcast if you do King Follett's sermon. And then we lied and said, we'll do it.
Richard Yeah, we had every intention. We have 38 seasons.
Gerrit I feel like, then maybe the podcast is very reflective then of our own journey to the next life, right? We had every good intention. We're just still not going to do it.
Richard It's a Travis Tritt song.
Gerrit Yeah, right. You know, we've been referencing Travis Tritt a lot lately.
Richard I've been on a, yeah, I've been on a kick.
Gerrit A little Travis Tritt kick. Yeah. Is it the hair?
Richard It is there. I'm starting to look more and more like him every day.
Gerrit What if Travis Tritt was listening?
Richard Yeah, we're huge in the South.
Gerrit Yeah. Travis Tritt, if you're listening, I need you to email in and let us know what your thoughts are on Hell, which is probably going to be listening to your podcast. So the question arises because we use this term Hell. So as I said, D&C 76, again, you can go listen to that podcast to get a lot more details on it. But the part of it that's very radical is that Joseph Smith teaches that in fact, eternal Hell doesn't exist. That everyone, save very few exceptions, everyone was eventually going to be resurrected. And once they were resurrected, they would go to a kingdom of glory. Now, again, most Christians believe that everyone's going to be resurrected. It becomes kind of a weird doctrine for Christians. Because for Protestants who believe that people immediately go to heaven or hell the moment they die, it's kind of a weird doctrine, right?
Gerrit Because you, you know, I'm already burning in hell, and then God has to pull me out of hell to resurrect me, so they can put me back into hell, so that I can suffer more.
Richard Yeah, because now you have a body.
Gerrit Right. Well, what was going on before?
Richard Well, it was just, you know, it was more psychological.
Gerrit It was just like, it was like training wheels hell.
Richard Yeah, they got like one swinging light bulb, and they're interrogating you.
Gerrit Right, they're like, I know about the money. He already told me about it.
Richard Then you get the body, then it's burnt off, and then regenerated, and then burnt off again.
Gerrit Yeah, okay. Still, you can see kind of the problem, right? Because if you tell someone hell is the most exquisite pain you could ever possibly experience, and then it's even worse than that after you get your body back. It's like, well, so before it's actually not the worst that you could possibly experience, right?
Richard Well, it's the anticipation of it being worse.
Gerrit I see.
Richard Yes.
Gerrit Maybe you should be a Protestant minister.
Richard Maybe I should be.
Gerrit Yeah, I think you'd do well.
Richard Me and Travis Tripp.
Gerrit You and Travis Tripp. In fact, we call it Travis Tripp Ministries. You know what, I like that. Not endorsed by Travis Tripp.
Richard I'm gonna get Brady to register that.
Gerrit Brady, we're gonna need another domain name. We'll get Kyle right on that. So this belief that's so radical is that Joseph Smith teaching that even the people that are sinners, even the people that are wicked, they are eventually going to be resurrected and obtain a kingdom of glory. And again, for modern Latter-day Saints, we often try to talk about the telestial Kingdom like it's some kind of like, you know, like it's also hell, right? Like, oh yeah, you'll be so miserable. When you go to the telestial Kingdom, it'll just be horror all day long, you know, pitchforks everywhere. And yet, that's not how Joseph Smith teaches it. He teaches that it's a kingdom of bliss, that it's a kingdom of happiness, that it's a kingdom of such great glory that you can't possibly comprehend it, that God would have to open the heavens and show it to you for you to understand the glory of this kingdom. Again, I'm not encouraging anyone to go there, but the point is that is very different.
Gerrit Very, very different than the belief that you'll be writhing in an eternal hell forever. And so the question that Emily's asking is, hell does sound like it's pretty terrible in the Book of Mormon. It also sounds pretty terrible in the Bible, and it also kind of sounds like it's forever in all of those places. So how do we reconcile the two? And really, the reality is, the reconciliation comes from understanding that, yes, we, like Protestants and Catholics, use the term hell to talk about the place of suffering that unrepentant sinners go to after they die. And really, for the early church, we're using the same term as well. Even today, you still hear people use the term hell. So it's not to say that we don't have hell in our theology.
Gerrit The reality of the Latter-day Saint doctrine, the difference is that what we think hell is, is very different. And this can be demonstrated through both some revelations as well as some sermons that Joseph Smith teaches. But let's start with, even before there is a church, doctrine comes in section 19.
Richard Okay, so here we have the Savior speaking to Joseph Smith in this section, well, speaking through Joseph Smith to Martin Harris. To Martin Harris, yes.
Gerrit Right. Who has agreed to pay for the printing of the Book of Mormon, and then...
Richard He got, it's like when the check comes, he got alligator arms.
Gerrit Yeah, it was. It was like, no, I'll pay for it, I'll pay for it, I'll pay for it. No, look, guys, I'm good for it. I promise I'll pay for it. I'll pay for it. $3,000? I mean...
Richard Hold on. Where's my billfold?
Gerrit Yeah, should we... Oh, I left it. I sent a Venmo earlier, Joseph. I just can't find it.
Richard So in this section, there's a couple of parts where we learn a lot of different things. One is how great the suffering is, right?
Gerrit So, we're not trying to say that people who don't repent of their sins aren't going to suffer. They are going to suffer, as the Lord makes clear here in TNC 19.
Richard For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent, but if they would not repent, then they must suffer even as I, which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit, and that I might not drink the bitter cup and shrink. We also learn, though, in that same section, that this idea of forever punishment isn't quite, I've often thought, what must they have thought is that they were, when they were receiving this, right? Because their understanding of hell at that time is, it's an eternal forever thing. But in verses 10, 11 and 12, For behold, the mystery of godliness, how great it is! For behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment. For endless is my name, wherefore eternal punishment is God's punishment. Endless punishment is God's punishment. So this first kind of idea of endless punishment doesn't mean punishment forever, it means God's punishment.
Gerrit Because God is endless. Now, that is not the way that it's being interpreted by other Christians. So it is interesting that D&C 19 is both condemning Martin Harris for the fact that he needs to pay the debt that thou hast contracted with the printer, right? And give up even all of your lands for the printing of the Book of Mormon. He's told very directly what he needs to do. But also at the same time as having this doctrine taught to him that it doesn't necessarily mean actual suffering forever. Because it is suffering that is decreed by God. And so therefore, the suffering is endless because God is endless. Now, let's put that into a, I know I've quoted this before, but just to put it a little bit in context for the time, what are other Christians thinking about hell at the time? Jonathan Edwards, in his great sermon, reflects this very Calvinist idea of hell.
Gerrit And this is what he says after, of course, saying, God hates you. So that's how, you know.
Richard He abhors you.
Gerrit God abhors you. Well, you can look up the word abhor. It's not a friendly kind of a thought, right? If any of you were like, Oh, you know, Richard, I abhor that guy.
Richard We get a lot of those emails.
Gerrit Most of our emails start with dot, dot, dot, I abhor Richard. It's very, it's a surprise how many we get, actually. Yeah. I think it's because you don't have your Ph.D. yet. I'm not close. If you get the Ph.D. in hand, yeah, then the abhorrence turns to mild tolerance. Well, no, I'd still say distaste, but yeah.
Richard I'd accept that over abhorring.
Gerrit Yeah, abhorring is, I mean, yeah. It's a rough word. Anyway, God abhors you. He hates you, right? Well, what does Jonathan Edwards mean by that? God hates sin. You're a sinner. That's A plus B equals.
Richard It's a geometric proof.
Gerrit Makes a lot of sense. If God hates sin, you are a sinner, then God hates you, right? Because you are a vessel filled with sin. As he goes on to say, O sinner, consider the fearful danger that you are in. It is the great furnace of wrath, a wide and bottomless pit full of the fire of wrath that you are held over in the hand of that God whose wrath is provoked and incensed as much against you as against many of the damned in hell. You hang by a slender thread with the flames of divine wrath flashing about it and ready every moment to singe it and burn it asunder. And then as he talks about what hell is like, this is how he describes it. It would be dreadful to suffer this fierceness and wrath of Almighty God for one moment, but you must suffer it for all eternity.
Gerrit There will be no end to this exquisite, horrible misery. When you look forward, you will see a long forever, a boundless duration before you, which will swallow up your thoughts and amaze your soul. And you will absolutely despair of ever having any deliverance, any end, any mitigation, any rest at all. You will know certainly that you must wear out long ages, millions of millions of ages, in wrestling with this almighty, merciless vengeance. And then, when you have done so, when so many ages have actually been spent by you in this manner, you will know that that is all but a point to what remains, so that your punishment will indeed be infinite. Now, that's pretty rough. Yeah.
Gerrit That's probably not the way to start Sunday school.
Richard Was that at Alvin's funeral?
Gerrit Something similar. John Lennon Edwards obviously logged dead. Richard's making a reference to the fact that at Alvin's funeral, the minister proclaimed, which again seems like it's a rough way to say, we're dearly departed, he proclaims that Alvin's clearly not saved and burning in hell. And his evidence for that is Alvin was never baptized. Now, Presbyterians don't believe you have to be baptized to be saved. But Alvin's a Christian living in a Christian land. Jesus commanded his believers to be baptized. So how could someone in their twenties, who had been given the gift of faith by God, or the true gift of saving faith, the grace of God, If he had been saved, he would have... Anyone who had been given the gift of faith would have done what Jesus asked and asked to be baptized. The baptism doesn't save you, but the baptism is a sign that God has given you the gift of faith.
Richard And that you are saved.
Gerrit And that therefore you were always saved. In 19th century Presbyterian theology, where it's a predestined salvation, that God chose to give you the gift of faith before He ever created you. And if you live into your 20s, which is like living into your 80s for us, it's not that bad, but still, I mean, you live into your 20s, and you still have never asked to be baptized, even though Jesus commanded it, well then, I mean, how much grace must you have? You clearly aren't filled with the grace of Jesus, because if you were, you would have said, I need to be baptized. Yeah, that's not exactly what Lucy Mack wants to hear as she's grieving her oldest child's death, right? But that's a pretty stark difference. So I think, Emily, a big part of answering your question is, it's not that we don't believe people will suffer for their sins. It's that the Christian world believes that that suffering, that essential to that suffering, is that it's forever.
Gerrit Not a million years, not a billion years, not ages upon ages. It's forever. After every tomorrow, there's another tomorrow where you are burning in hell. There's never an end to it. And again, as we started the podcast, it's the reason why some theologians, some other Christian thinkers, have tried to find ways to get around that. Because the very eternality of hell is such that it calls into question the omnibenevolence of God. If God is all good, then how is it that literally almost every single person he created is going to burn in hell? Now look, I know that according to Christian theology, there are thousands, tens of thousands, millions of Christians that are going to heaven.
Gerrit That's great. What about the other 85% of the people God created? Because we're not talking about, oh man, they're going to be so disappointed that they missed the Taylor Swift concert. We're talking about them writhing in agony, in inexplicable suffering forever. Not a week, not 200 years, not a million years, forever. And so that is the stark difference between what Joseph Smith is going to have revealed to him. And it's the reason why, as we've talked about, that people leave the church. As George A. Smith will explain, that the missionary who baptizes him and his family, Joseph Wakefield, who is one of the great early missionaries in the church, he is going to apostatize over the vision, over doctrine and covenant section 76.
Gerrit And we often go to D&C 76, usually we go there to read the wonderful testimony that Joseph gives. And then on our own we go there to see whether or not we're going to be making the celestial or the terrestrial kingdom. What do you think value in a testimony that Jesus means? That kind of stuff. But what was super radical about this doctrine at the time it was received, is not, I mean, the testimony of course is still beautiful. It's not that there's a celestial kingdom or a better way to describe heaven. I mean, there's only so many ways you can describe heaven, right? I mean, it's amazing. It's like, it's super amazing. Now, of course, Latter-day Saints are going to come to understand that heaven isn't just about throwing crowns at God's feet, right? That life is about a progression to becoming more like God. And that is the ultimate end of exaltation.
Gerrit But it's the other end of that spectrum that is going to cause apostasy. Now, later in Joseph's ministry, when he starts to really explain what exaltation entails and how it is that God came to be God, which is the most blasphemous thing anyone can possibly say, so all of our Christian friends listening, sorry. But it's still true that in fact God came to be God and that thereby there is a way that others can come to be like him. Joseph's going to unpack that. Now, that's going to cause people to apostatize as well on the other end. But here early in his ministry in 1832, the apostasy is much more coming from the fact that on the low end, on what happens to the evil people, is so starkly different from anything else that's being taught.
Gerrit If you go to Doctrine and Covenants, section 76, talking about the celestial world, it says, For these are they who are of Paul and of Apollos and of Cephas. These are they who say that they are some of one and some of another, some of Christ and some of John and some of Moses and some of Elias and some of Isaiah and some of Enoch. But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant. Last of all, these are all they who will not be gathered with the saints to be caught up under the church of the firstborn and received into the cloud. These are they who are liars and sorcerers and adulterers and whoremongers and whosoever loves and makes a lie. These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth. These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire. These are they who are cast down to hell. So there it is again, Emily, right? We're talking about the sinners of all sinners.
Gerrit They're going to hell. And suffer the wrath of Almighty God. Now, if that is where the revelation ended, we'd all be... Well, we wouldn't be fine with the rest of Christianity. We still have some other issues. I mean, the Book of Mormon still exists, and well, all of our other doctrines. But I mean, but this, at least on the topic of heaven and hell, if that's where verse 106 of section 76 ended, that these are they who are cast into hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, we'd be pretty similar to John Calvin and Jonathan Edwards. The problem is the very next word, and that word is, it breaks with orthodox Christianity. And that is, as it reads, suffer the wrath of Almighty God until. Now, what we just read from Jonathan Edwards, there wasn't an until, you'll notice, right?
Gerrit It was, in fact, the whole point of his repetition was, there isn't an until. It would be dreadful to suffer this for one moment, but you have to suffer it for eternity. So he's not disagreeing that the suffering is bad for a moment, and we also believe the suffering is bad for a moment. How great you know not. But Joseph is receiving this revelation that even the vilest of sinners, even the people who are horrible sinners, they are going to eventually be taken out of hell. So when we talk about hell not existing, it's not that we're saying that hell doesn't exist at all. What we're saying is our definition of hell is so different from the Christian definition of hell that it's not actually very helpful to use it, certainly in mixed company, right?
Gerrit If you're with your Baptist friend and you're talking about theology, and he says hell, and you say hell, you're watching a Baylor BYU football game, and there was two turnovers on back-to-back plays or something like that.
Richard Yeah, unless it's preceded by what the, then you're not talking about the same thing.
Gerrit Right, you're not talking about the same thing. And that matters because Christians believe hell, the definition of it is a place of literal eternal suffering, not temporary suffering. The whole point of hell is that it's forever. So it's not just a modification on the definition of hell, right? When a Latter-day Saint says, oh yeah, well we believe in suffering, no, we believe in hell, it's kind of similar to when Latter-day Saints talk about other doctrines, right? I mean, a Latter-day Saint might say, well, no, no, we believe you have to accept Jesus to be saved, it's just we believe you can accept him in the next life. A Christian would respond that it's literally the exact opposite point of the entire thing. We believe the whole point is you have to accept Jesus in this life. And a Latter-day Saint's like, well, I mean, or next life or, you know, or whenever. I mean, the breadth of a Latter-day Saint's belief in humanity being saved, it dwarfs Christian belief, right?
Gerrit I mean, a Latter-day Saint can, with all faith and fervor, not just with a little hope and a twinkle in their eye, say, you know, that a Hindu is going to heaven, that Muslims are going to heaven, that not like, well, maybe they somehow accepted Jesus right before they died, and that's where they're going to heaven. We believe not only that everyone's going to have the opportunity to be exalted, so that's a whole other conversation, but that everyone's going to, even the people who don't accept Jesus, their suffering is not going to be forever. That's why there's such a definitional difference.
Richard Now, so there's a couple of spaces, a couple of verses in section 76, I mean, verse 84, These are they that are thrust down to hell, these are they that shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb has finished his work. So does Joseph Smith expand on this then, on this idea, you know, Nauvoo period a little bit later?
Gerrit Yeah, I mean, he certainly is going to expand on it. So again, what's the theology? It's just so everyone's clear. Because I assume that everyone listening to our podcast is right on the edge of just committing all kinds of acts of mayhem.
Richard There's waiting what you have to say what Joseph Smith had to say.
Gerrit Well, so they're on the edge, like, so wait a minute. I'm going to heaven no matter what I do. And, you know, mayhem ensues, right? The key importance is that while everyone is going to suffer for the sins that they don't repent for, and according to D&C 19, it is how great a suffering you know not, how horrible it is, that by the end of the millennium, okay, so look, if you're a pretty vile sinner, you are going to hell for at least a thousand years, right? Or we might call it spirit prison, right? But the reality is that you are suffering for your sins for a certain amount of time, and it's going to be at least a thousand years if it's the end of the millennium, and we haven't started the millennium yet, unless you know when the fourth feather, you know. For those of you following the right person, yeah, for those of you following the right person on YouTube, I can track the, you know, where the next solar eclipse takes place, and then you'll know when Jesus is coming. But for those of us who are, you know, waiting for actual prophets to tell us, you don't really know when, you know, how long that's going to be, but at minimum it's a thousand years, right, if it's the very end of the millennium, if Jesus were to come tomorrow.
Gerrit And so there is suffering, but now compare a thousand years to infinity. Yeah, to trillions upon trillions upon trillions of years. And I think that's the reason why we sometimes then try to push hell into the celestial kingdom, right? Even though it's a kingdom of glory, we try to, we try to, oh, okay, so you won't suffer for forever in hell, but then when you get resurrected, like then you're going to suffer. I understand why. I mean, I understand why we want there to be an eternal, which is kind of weird, right?
Richard Oh, we want there to be...
Gerrit A thousand years of suffering seems like a lot.
Richard Well, we want there to be consequences for...
Gerrit Yeah, a thousand years.
Richard Well, yeah, yeah. I mean, so if somebody's really bad, people use, I mean, in the history of Christianity, they use hell as the stick to say, hey, be a better person.
Gerrit Right, and so we're worried that we don't have a big stick anymore.
Richard That's right.
Gerrit But God's also dangling the carrot, or in this case probably like a Twinkie, and it's much better than a carrot, right, of actual eternal progression. That's not something that a Christian is thinking about heaven, right? For a Christian, heaven is being able to be in the presence of Jesus. And that will be an all-encompassing love, a feeling that is so great and so marvelous that it is bliss and it will last forever. He will be praising Jesus, adoring him forever. We believe that. We just believe that there's more to it than that. And that's where exaltation comes in. That's probably for another podcast. When Joseph, let me finish, 106, he says that they will, D&C 76106, they'll suffer the wrath of Allah when it got until the fullness of times when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet and shall have perfected his work.
Gerrit So that's the time that comes when everyone will be resurrected. Now, of course, there are some exceptions, and Joseph will speak to those exceptions, those who are sons of perdition, who will be resurrected but will not go to a kingdom of glory. At the same time, Joseph makes it very clear that becoming a son of perdition isn't the same thing as like adding a little bit of lead weights into your flour barrel that you're then selling to somebody like, no, look, it weighs 40 pounds. I mean, that's bad, and that's a sin. I'm not encouraging anyone who's selling flour by the barrel listening to our podcast to try to get away.
Richard With the 19th century weight system.
Gerrit Yeah, I mean, it's not digital. It's like, oh, I put some lead weights in it. Now, the lead weights, of course, cost more than the flour does. I don't know how you get away with that. You'd have to get the weights back out of the flour before someone bought it. Clearly, I need to think more about how to defraud people with my flour barrel. I mean, we've been glutting ourselves so long on the premium content that I think it's gone to our heads to where now we think we can put lead weights in everything. So Joseph does expand on this several times. Now, you realize that teaching people that eternal hell doesn't exist not only does that cause people to apostatize, it also causes people on the other end of the spectrum to, you know, maybe take things a little bit too lightly, right? And so Joseph is going to have to clarify some things. And one of the points of doctrine that he clarifies multiple times is that there are some sins that are far more grievous than others.
Gerrit In a sermon that he's going to give in May of 1841, he's going to say there are three independent principles, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of man, and the Spirit of the devil. All men have power to resist the devil. They who have tabernacles have power over those who have not. The doctrine of eternal judgment, Acts chapter 2, 41, Peter preached, Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. But in Acts 3, he says, Repent and be converted that your sins may be blotted out when the times of refreshing shall come, and he shall send Jesus, and remission of sins by baptism was not preached to murder. So he's making the distinction that the difference is that the people in Acts chapter 2 had not committed murder, and in Acts chapter 3, some of them had.
Gerrit And so that's the reason why he didn't say, you know, it's not can any man forbid water, that they might be baptized, it's you guys need to hope that, you know, when the times of refreshing come or redemption, that you'll be saved. All the priests... This is back to Joseph. This isn't me. Let me go back to Joseph, so make a very clear transition. All the priests in Christendom might pray for the murderer on the scaffold forever, but could not avail so much as a gnat towards their forgiveness. There is no forgiveness for murderers. They will have to wait until the times of redemption shall come, and that in hell. So look, Emily Joseph is also using the term hell to describe this place of suffering that the worst of sinners are going to go to. Peter had the keys of eternal judgment, and he sought this again, Joseph.
Gerrit I really need to say, this is Joseph before I start talking.
Richard You're afraid people are going to confuse things you say with things that he says? That's your big concern?
Gerrit What I'm most concerned with is that people will confuse something that I say and say, Joseph said that?
Richard Yeah, I see.
Gerrit Yeah, it's more about not hurting Joseph than it is about helping me. You're right, most people will very clearly be like, Hey, thanks for the heads up. Never have I confused you with, I haven't even confused you with Truman Madsen yet, let alone Joseph Smith. Anyway, again, Joseph says, Peter had the keys of eternal judgment and he saw David in hell and knew for what reason, and that David would have to remain there until the resurrection at the coming of Christ. So that apparently that suffering at least has to last until the resurrection and the coming of Christ for David. That's not the only place that Joseph is going to talk about this. He's going to bring this up several times. And it's part of the reason why he highlights the necessity of ordinances. That essentially ordinances are what move people from hell.
Gerrit The ordinances are essential to not be in this state of eternal suffering. Ordinances, this is from June 11th of 1843, Joseph Smith preaching. I'm about to quote Joseph Smith again, just so everyone knows.
Richard Thank you for the clarification.
Gerrit Unless you thought I had said something from June of 1843, which I haven't. Not yet. It's coming. It's coming. As my power expands, as the tens and almost tens more of people listening, I will soon project myself back into history, and I will say these things. Ordinances were instituted in heaven before the foundation of the world for the salvation of man, not to be altered, not to be changed. All must be saved upon the same principle. That is only your opinion, sir, say sectarians. When a man will go to hell, it is more than my meat and drink to help them do as they want to. Where there is no change of priesthood, there is no change of ordinances, says Paul. If God has not changed the ordinances and priesthood, howl ye, sectarians.
Gerrit If he has, where has he revealed it? Have ye turned revelators? Then why deny it? So Joseph is saying, look, in the Bible, Jesus is telling people to get baptized, and now you have people today saying that baptism is not essential, and Joseph is saying, well, I guess you guys do receive revelation then, because Jesus said you had to get baptized, and you're saying that you don't. So you don't believe in revelation, except you somehow received a revelation. I mean, I don't know that Joseph would say it as sarcastically as I just did.
Richard It sounds like he kind of did.
Gerrit Okay, maybe he did.
Richard I think we're saying great sectarians.
Gerrit This is Willard Richards recording it, so maybe Willard Richards is, you know, he's throwing a few barbs in. I don't know. I don't know how it goes. Men have thought many things inscrutable in the last days that he should raise the dead. Things have been hid from the foundation of the world to be revealed to babes in the last days. So he's going to go on and talk about the resurrection. And there are great many wise men and women, two in our midst, two wise to be taught. And they must die in their ignorance. And in the resurrection, they will find their mistake. Many seal up the door to heaven by saying, so far God may reveal, and I will believe, heirs of God. And upon the same laws, ordinances, etc. of Jesus Christ and he who will not have it, all will come short of that glory, if not of the whole. Sorry, then it cuts to the ordinance of baptism. God decreed before the foundation of the world that this baptism should be performed in a house prepared for the purpose.
Gerrit Now in this same sermon, Joseph is going to expound a little more about the idea of paradise. Again, this is one of the questions of what happens when people, when they die, right? The New Testament has this conversation about the thief on the cross, right? And the thief on the cross confesses Jesus, Remember me, Lord, and thou comest to thy kingdom. And Jesus says, Today thou shalt be with me in paradise. And that's the foundation of many Protestant Christians saying that all you have to do is confess with your mouth Jesus, and that that is what saves you. And Joseph is trying to make the point, no, baptism is still essential. So one of the interesting aspects of this conversation about the lack of the eternality of hell is Joseph placing that against the doctrine of baptism for the dead. That baptism is this essential part of what moves people from this suffering.
Gerrit And so he's going to talk about the doctrine of paradise. He says, Paradise is a modern word. Don't answer to the original word used by Jesus. That's how Willard Richard wrote it, okay? He said, Don't answer to us. I mean, maybe. That's how Joseph said it. I don't know. Find the origin of paradise. Find a needle in a haymow. Here is a chance for you. Battle you learned men, said Jesus, for there is not time to investigate the matter. For this day you will be with me in the world of spirits. So Joseph's making the point that actually what the meaning of that word is isn't paradise, it is in the world of spirits. So not heaven and not hell, right? It's somewhere else. It's not this Protestant view of hell. It's not this Christian view of heaven, but in fact it's somewhere else. And there I will teach you all about it.
Gerrit So Joseph asked that, right? You know, today you'll be with me in paradise. What Joseph's saying is how that should have been translated is today you're going to be with me in the world of spirits. And that kind of adds on. Then Jesus will say, because then I'll see you there and I'll teach you about what you need to know, because you're going to need to be baptized if you decide that you're going to follow me. Peter says, this is again Joseph, Peter says he went and preached to the world of spirits so that they would receive it and could have it answered by proxy, by those who live on the earth. So this doctrine of the lack of eternality of suffering in hell, Joseph sees very much combined with the doctrine of baptism for the dead. Joseph is going to teach that in fact eternal hellfire doesn't exist, that God has prepared a way for everyone to be saved and that as soon as they accept Jesus, that that is the deciding factor after this life.
Gerrit In a discourse that he's going to give shortly before he dies, April 7th of 1844, he is going to again talk about the fact that there are some people that are going to have to wait. Many talk of any baptism not being essential to salvation, but this would lay the foundation of their damnation. So again, Joseph is using the term damnation and hell. He just means something different by it. When a Christian uses the term damnation, what they mean is someone who is in hell forever. What Joseph means is something that is temporary, until that is remedied, even if it is suffering. That they would lay the foundation of their damnation. There has also been remarks made concerning all men being redeemed from hell. Now, notice, Joseph is the one who is teaching that all men will be redeemed from hell. But I say that any man who commits the unpardonable sin must dwell in hell worlds without end.
Gerrit So this idea of becoming a son of perdition actually does greatly curtail the idea that simply everybody is going to be saved. In fact, there are some who will essentially choose to not be saved. Let me quote from Joseph's sermon, where he's talking about this ability for people to eventually be saved from hell fire. God has made provision for every spirit in the eternal world, and the spirits of our friends should be searched out and saved. Any man that has a friend in eternity can save him if he has not committed the unpardonable sin. He cannot be damned through all eternity. There is a possibility for his escape in a little time. So Joseph is teaching very clearly this idea of actual eternal damnation is not true. If a man has knowledge, he can be saved.
Gerrit If he has been guilty of great sins, he is punished for it. So it's not a matter of thinking, well, I can sin and I'm not going to be punished. If that's what you took out of this, and you're thinking, you know what, I've been waiting to put my money down on the gambling lines that Richard's been providing, but I thought it was a sin, which it is, so I haven't done it. Richard?
Richard According to, we'd like to refer everyone to President Hinckley's April 2005 conference address.
Gerrit Exactly. You are still going to suffer for the sins that you don't repent for. If he is guilty of great sins, he is punished for it, Joseph says. But then he goes on. When he consents to obey the Gospel, whether alive or dead, he is saved. His own mind damns him. I have no fear of hellfire that don't exist. No man can commit the unpardonable sin until he receives the Holy Ghost. All will suffer until they obey Christ himself. Even the devil said, I am a savior and can save all, and he rose up in rebellion against God and was cast down. And then here you have it, as clear as you possibly can get it. Jesus Christ will save all except the sons of perdition. That is, that's about as clear as you're going to get that the idea of eternal hellfire, it's only those sons of perdition who reject Jesus knowing him.
Gerrit What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? They must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens open unto them, and know God, and then sin against him. So he goes on, you know, this idea that salvation is much more broad, that suffering is much less eternal, is something that provides us comfort. He says that we have to console us in relation to our dead. We have the greatest hope in relation to our dead of any people on earth. We have seen them walk worthy on earth, those who have died in the faith are now in the celestial kingdom of God. They've gone to await the resurrection of the dead, to go to the celestial glory. While there is many who die, we'll have to wait many years. But I am authorized to say to you, my friends, in the name of the Lord, that you may wait for your friends to come forth to meet you in eternity in the morn of the celestial world.
Gerrit Those saints who have been murdered in the persecution shall triumph in the celestial world, while their murderers shall dwell in torment until they shall pay the utmost farthing. So again, this idea that even people would murder the saints, there's an until there, right? That doctrine of that they're going to suffer forever, well, Joseph's going to say, in fact, that suffering has an end. Now, one of the people who really embraces this is Brigham Young. He is going to teach this doctrine of this salvation being much broader than we generally think it is. Because what is salvation from? It's salvation from eternal hellfire. In that sense, Latter-day Saints are a type of universalist. Now, again, don't go around calling yourself a universalist because it means something else nowadays.
Gerrit But we don't believe that people are going to suffer in hell for eternity. And the reason why we're able to believe that is because of the revelation given to Joseph Smith, the multiple revelations, that explain that we aren't just creations of God. We started this whole conversation on the Christian premise that God created us out of nothing, however many years ago you were born. We don't believe that. We believe that we are all eternal beings that in some way have always existed. So why is it that everyone's going to be saved? Well, everyone's going to be saved because every person that you will ever meet for the remainder of your life, however horribly they have acted in this life, however far down the line of following the impulses of the carnal natural man or under the influences of Satan, every person on this earth at some point in the pre-mortal life accepted Jesus.
Gerrit You all have Christian friends who really, really, really believe that because they've accepted Jesus, they're going to heaven no matter what. In some sense, Latter-day Saints believe something similar. We believe that because we all kept our first estate, because we all accepted Jesus and the Father's plan in the pre-mortal life, that yes, we are going to suffer for our sins, but eventually, everyone who didn't reject that first estate is going to go to heaven, where they will have peace and joy and bliss. Now, we don't want to go to the telestial Kingdom, so this isn't a podcast about how to get to the telestial Kingdom. In fact, I wouldn't have to do a podcast on that because you can end up there without any direction, but it is an important understanding of Latter-day Saint theology. Again, Latter-day Saints are often accused of believing, oh, you Mormons think that unless you're a Mormon, you're going to hell.
Gerrit Actually, it's the opposite. We literally believe that everyone not only has the chance to be exalted, but that almost everyone, save those who know Jesus personally and reject him, are going to eventually go to heaven. And when Brigham Young talks about this, he says, how is that possible? He says it's through the atonement of Jesus Christ. Brigham struggles with the doctrine of D&C 76 at first. It is very difficult for him to accept that there is no eternal hell. But once he embraces it, he considers it amazing. He says that, it is a source of much comfort, consolation and gratification to behold the goodness and long suffering and the kindness and parental feeling of our Father and our God in preparing the way, providing the means to save the children of men and not you and I alone, not the Latter-day Saints alone, not those who have the privilege of the first principles of the celestial kingdom exclusively, but to save all.
Gerrit A universal salvation, a universal redemption. When you inquire who will be saved, all will be saved. As Jesus said speaking to his twelve apostles, accept the sons of perdition. If you inquire wherein will they be saved, how will they be saved? In a very few words I can tell you. They will be saved through the atonement and their good works according to that law that has given them. Will the heathens be saved? Yes. Will those that have died without the law be saved? Those that never even heard of the Savior be saved? And Brigham gives a resounding yes, and he goes on to say that his soul is comforted on the idea that God made a provision to save eventually everyone from hellfire. So thank you so much for listening. Hopefully we answered that a little bit.
Gerrit I'm sure we could probably answer it better than we did.
Richard I don't think actually we could answer it better. I'm not saying that it was good, I'm just saying we could have done better. Our skill level is such that we've maxed out.
Gerrit We're only like an intermediate level, and you're going to need to find someone more expert. Thank you so much for joining us.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.

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I wear a regular suit and tie, whatever, except when I earn my PhD, then I'm gonna come and scrubs that next class.

RichardBanter

Why did you call someone who wouldn't listen to our podcast? Where's the inspiration of that?

GerritBanter

I mean, in fairness, Richard could dance if his back wasn't made out of a saltine cracker, I'm guessing.

GerritBanter

It would be kind of like what happens when they close one of the windows at your local DMV.

GerritBanter

The reality of the Latter-day Saint doctrine, the difference is that what we think hell is, is very different.

GerritInsight

Most of our emails start with dot, dot, dot, I abhor Richard.

GerritBanter

I mean, the breadth of a Latter-day Saint's belief in humanity being saved, it dwarfs Christian belief, right?

GerritInsight

Never have I confused you with, I haven't even confused you with Truman Madsen yet, let alone Joseph Smith.

GerritBanter

Now, we don't want to go to the telestial Kingdom, so this isn't a podcast about how to get to the telestial Kingdom. In fact, I wouldn't have to do a podcast on that because you can end up there without any direction

GerritBanter

We literally believe that everyone not only has the chance to be exalted, but that almost everyone, save those who know Jesus personally and reject him, are going to eventually go to heaven.

GerritInsight

More from this episode

Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.

Claim check

What critics say, and what the episode found
Latter-day Saints don't believe in hell.
Mormons think only Mormons go to heaven.
If hell isn't eternal, sin doesn't really matter.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.

Take it to class

Ready to copy into a lesson or a text

In D&C 19, "endless punishment" means God's punishment, because Endless is His name; it doesn't mean suffering without end.

The word that set D&C 76 apart from other Christian teaching is "until": even the wicked suffer "until" Christ has finished his work.

Sin still brings real suffering, but Joseph taught that "any man that has a friend in eternity can save him if he has not committed the unpardonable sin."

Because everyone on earth accepted Jesus in the pre-mortal life, Latter-day Saints believe nearly all of God's children will eventually receive a kingdom of glory.

Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.

Banter bin

The running jokes, for people who skip ahead
Doctor inflation, scrubs editionRichard will require everyone, including his children and reservation forms, to call him doctor, and will teach in scrubs (0:48, 1:13).
#RealRexsEldersQuorumPresidentHe writes in, Rex is moving to Independence on a reverse Oregon Trail, and only half the presidency listens (1:54, 2:59, 6:00).
Gambling addiction Richard doesn't haveThe detours are like payouts that fail four times out of five, plus early NBA lines and President Hinckley's 2005 talk (4:13, 4:42, 65:15).
Truman Madsen could danceBarney confirms it, and Richard's back is a saltine cracker (5:31).
Missouri in JuneThe tour is scheduled for 100 degrees and humidity, sponsored by Gold Bond (7:32).
Ranking the hellsLatter-day Saint hell first, Jehovah's Witness hell a strong second (10:26).
Mike Tyson's Punch-OutNeither got past Sandman (12:29).
We're huge in...Ohio, Florida, New York, and the South, if Travis Tritt is listening (20:23, 25:02).
King Follett promised to BradyThe condition for the podcast equipment, still not done, with 38 seasons to go (24:02).
Travis Tritt MinistriesBrady and Kyle need to register the domain, not endorsed by Travis Tritt (24:44, 27:05).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

Your question could be next week’s episode
Questions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
Go deeperWhere to read more.

Go deeper

Deep dives the episode points toward
How other Christians try to resolve an all-powerful, all-loving God and eternal hell, from Calvin to annihilationism (14:00, 17:38).
The King Follett discourse and the doctrine of becoming like God, the episode promised to Brady (24:02, 41:19).
Joseph Smith's 1841 sermon on murder and Acts 2 and 3, and what it says about David (53:22, 55:39).
Joseph's June 1843 teaching on paradise as the world of spirits and its link to baptism for the dead (59:42).
SOT Litner · S3E32.