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A son flies to Peru
S3E33 · Why Me?
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Standard of Truth · Season 3 · Episode 33 · 1:08:41

Why Me?

Revelations sent the Saints to "the Ohio" because the phrase meant the whole region north of the Ohio River, the same tradition behind the name The Ohio State University.

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The question ·
What are the chances truly that I found the right one? And if I have, which I think I have, why would the Lord pick someone like me to carry that fire? Why not someone more competent?
Steve (listener)

Richard is tracking his second son's flight to a mission in Lima, Peru, and Tanner gets his email read but not his polygamy question answered. Steve asks why the revelations say "the Ohio," and Gerrit happily explains colonial charters, Connecticut's Western Reserve and the Northwest Ordinance. Steve's deeper question is why he, of all the billions of people, found the truth, and whether others wasted their lives. Gerrit says Luther faced the same charge of arrogance, but Latter-day Saint belief is not exclusionary: everyone gets an equal chance at exaltation. Richard shares meeting a woman who raised 21 foster children, and the hosts close on how small this life will seem when we remember who we were before.

Who comes upMartin LutherWilliam TyndaleKing JamesBrigham YoungJoseph Smith
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A son flies to Peru

Richard tracks his son's flight to Lima and the hosts laugh about MTC district leaders.

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Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. In this episode, we're going to hit several items from the Phebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag. But before we do, one thing, as we're recording this on a Thursday evening, as I am watching my, just tracking my son's flight from Atlanta to Lima, Peru, and Gerrit and I were having a lot of fun joking about our MTC experience. So my son, he home MTC'd for a week and then MTC'd for two weeks in Provo and then shipped out. And Gerrit has a ranking of current world power. I think that's what you have.
Gerrit Right, if we had to list the most powerful people on earth, obviously it's people with nuclear weapons who can.
Richard Generally.
Gerrit I mean, that's what you would put it. So obviously the president of the United States has the most power of any man on earth.
Richard Whoever that president is.
Gerrit Then, you know, President Xi in China, which we don't have to say whoever that president is because we know who it's always going to be.
Richard President for life. He will escort you out of parliament or out of whatever they call it.
Gerrit There's a pretty good chance it's going to be President Xi even years from now. Okay, so the president Xi. And then I think third, maybe just because things haven't gone so well in Ukraine, although he does have a lot of nuclear missiles, is Vladimir Putin. But almost at the level of Putin.
Richard Just, I mean, we're just barely below.
Gerrit It's like these three, this is 3A, it's 3A or 3.1 is a MTC district leader. A district leader in the MTC has more power than them all, perhaps.
Other You know what, maybe I should have rearranged that.
Gerrit And he's like, I'm pretty sure President Biden will be calling for my advice shortly.
Richard So we had a lot of fun at just laughing through kind of that experience. Lots of people have different MTC experiences. Part of the reason why we were laughing about it is my son was talking to us about his district leader in the MTC, who was this really cool laid back kid from Southern California. And he was like, hey guys, like, I don't know, like, I find out stuff like 30 minutes before you guys do. And if there's anything I can do for you, just let me know. That was not my experience in the MTC. That was not Gerrit's experience also in the MTC.
Gerrit My MTC district leader was, you know, he was pretty certain that whether or not we made it to breakfast five minutes early was the sixth seal in the book of Revelation, that he was one of the prophets that was going to be laying in the streets.
Richard So there's a lot of reasons for this though, right? One of the reasons is likely a person who is, this is the first real calling. I mean, maybe they were in some sort of presidency, in the youth. But even depending-
Gerrit How have you know? I was Deacon's Quorum president.
Richard But even then, it depends on maybe who the bishop and youth advisors, sometimes youth advisors are a little, they're a little over the top, don't let the youth do as much. So this is one of the, maybe the first real callings that they have. And we learn from Doctrine and Covenant Section 121 that as soon as men get a little bit of authority, as they suppose.
Gerrit That's the best part. You don't even actually have to have authority. You just have to think you do. And if Joseph isn't a prophet for any other thing, it's for understanding human nature better than anyone else on earth. You don't actually have to have authority. You just have to think you do. And the moment you think you do, you will immediately begin exercising unrighteous dominion.
Richard Immediately. The flight is just over northern Florida now. Very exciting. One of the main differences, though, between the district leader now and the district leader in our time in the late 90s was the key to the mailbox, the keeper of the letters.
Gerrit Do they not have a key to the mailbox now?
Richard I'm unfamiliar with these letters that you speak of. I don't think... Ah, yes, yes.
Gerrit Now that you can FaceTime your family every week, people write letters when the mission president forces them to.
Richard Occasional emails and things. But anyway, we had a lot of fun thinking about and laughing about the MTC. It was a good experience and it was an interesting experience as young men are learning exactly what it is that they're supposed to be doing. They're trying to be spiritual and also bossing each other around. And it's a mutiny on the bounty.
Gerrit Yeah, our, my, my district leader, the second he got a little authorities, he suppose he became, he became Captain Bly of the bounty and he, he would threaten us with all kinds of not getting our mail. He would chastise us.
Richard So great.
Gerrit It was great.
Richard It's so good. Well, so, uh, to Rigdon on your way to, uh, on your way to, to Lima, Peru, where you'll not be able to hear this for two years, where, yeah, you, you won't, your, your brother has a phone and I send him audio, you know, to his Facebook messenger or whatever, but, uh, you don't get a phone in Peru, uh, because it'll be stolen.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard And so they give you kind of a fake flip phone that you can have stolen and it's totally fun.
Gerrit So you will still get robbed. That's...
Richard It was interesting.
Gerrit Getting robbed is not actually, uh, a point.
Richard Well, so it was really interesting. So the, so the information we got for Spain, right, uh, different packet than the one we got for Peru. It was a very different packet.
Gerrit Both Spanish though.
Richard Both Spanish, although my son in Spain would argue not so much, right? I'm sure. He's a real snobby with his, with his, uh, Spanish but anyways, it was, it was a, uh, it's a tender, sweet day today as our second oldest son goes off to Lima. So anyway, uh, that's a enough about, uh, enough about that.
Gerrit But before we dig into things, we need to make sure we wish a happy 50th birthday to Lisa.
Richard Oh yes.
Other Yeah. Happy 50th birthday.
Gerrit We were going to, uh, wish her, her, we, we haven't been able to record quite regularly. So by the time this comes out, you'll, you'll be 51.
Richard Yeah. Happy 52nd birthday to Lisa.
Other Happy 70th birthday.
Gerrit We finally got around to you and we want you to just keep replaying this every year.
Richard That's right. My son is now around Tampa, by the way, is where we're just, yeah, it's very nice.
Gerrit I feel like it's kind of like tracking Santa with Nora.
Richard It actually is pretty great for those that have an apple. So not my wife. Um, you can type in, so this is Delta flight 151. So DL 151, you can text it to yourself and then you hold, you hold it, and then it gives you the full flight all the way through.
Gerrit Sounds like you're planning to gamble with this. I was just checking. I mean, everything else that ends up with numbers, the next thing you know, we're putting that down in an NCA game.
Richard And also, uh.
Gerrit How about that Pac-12?
Richard Boy, that was fun. So I had COVID last week and, uh, I was pretty sick on Thursday and Friday. And all I did was watch, uh, the Twitters and all of the memes on all of the things relating to the Pac-12. And it, it was hilarious.
Gerrit Let's hope we don't have any listeners who are Oregon state or Washington state alumni.
Richard Oh my gosh. I am so sorry for the wazoo folks and the mighty fine fighting beavers. It's unfortunate. It really is.
Gerrit It really is. Yeah. It was kind of a, kind of a hatchet job to end up with the go from, Hey, we're in a power five conference to, Hey, yeah, maybe mountain west. If they're lucky.
Richard Yeah. Possibly. I mean, it looks like, you know, Cal and Stanford might go to the ACC. That makes a lot of sense. Maybe the Atlantic coast conference.
Gerrit They tried to vote on it. That vote failed.
Richard Oh, did it? That happened today?
Gerrit Oh, vote failed. And so I don't know for those of you listening, who don't care at all about college football, welcome to most people in the world.
Richard But I got to, yeah, like our Spanish or Australian listener. What are you talking about?
Gerrit That nice thing about knowing that you don't have a global audience is that no one's listening from any of those other countries. Oh, we did have someone email us from Australia.
Richard Yeah, that's what I'm saying. We do have listeners in other countries.
Gerrit It's interesting. Angie and I have now twice on two consecutive cruises that we've gone on. Now we don't cruise every other day, but in the past couple of years, we've gone on a couple of cruises for our anniversary. And on both of these cruises, we have sat next to an Australian couple at dinner who were not Latter-day Saints. Don't worry, they weren't Latter-day Saints because any of our Australian, Latter-day Saints listening, they're like, you weren't sitting next to me. So I already know that obviously that wasn't a Latter-day Saint because I wasn't. Was it my dad? No. So obviously it's not. But both of them had a niece that was a Latter-day Saint that had come to the United States.
Richard It was actually interesting, this last cruise I went with you and Becky and I went with you and Angie.
Gerrit It wasn't just Richard and I on the cruise.
Richard Yes, that's right. Some other friends of ours and we sat next to this great Australian couple and ends up they were going to Hawaii from where we were at and my nephew is, he served his mission in Brisbane and so I ended up connecting him with them. He took them all around the Hawaii, he lives in Oahu, took them around, had dinner at their home.
Gerrit It was a whole, and that's the long and short of it is, we'll be telling that story soon and then we'll say that the podcast was the cause even though they literally didn't know that we had a podcast.
Richard Yeah, they were absolutely.
Gerrit Richard was sharing the gospel hard though.
Richard I was.
Gerrit Although I was the first one to tell them we were Mormons. Richard spent three nights sitting next to these people at dinner building a relationship of trust.
Richard Yes. Yeah, I BRT'd really hard. I watched several Australian movies.
Other He was good, he literally did.
Gerrit He watched an Australian movie just so he had something to talk to them about the next night.
Richard I did, yeah.
Gerrit And they were very impressed.
Richard Oh yeah, absolutely.
Gerrit And then I sat down next to him like, y'all heard of Mormons?
Richard Straight king fall at sermon.
Other Yeah, and I was like, let me tell you how it is that God came to be God.
Gerrit And then we went, I don't know why I had that accent, but to an Australian, that's probably what all American accents sound like.
Richard Yeah, that's pretty funny.
Gerrit I know that that's how all American accents sound like to an English person. Oh yeah. So if we have any English listeners, you know that every one of us sound like we are from Alabama.
Richard Nothing wrong with those wonderful listeners, I'm sure in Alabama.
Gerrit We don't have any listeners in Alabama.
Richard We do not.
Other Do we have any listeners anywhere in the American South?
Richard Yes. I think we have one in Arkansas, we've got a couple in Texas.
Gerrit So we should have more in Texas now that we're in the Big 12. I mean, that should grease the wheels a little bit.
Richard It should. By the way, so we're 12 minutes of wasting your time, Rex's elders quorum president. We have received several emails in the past several weeks.
Gerrit So many.
Richard That talk specifically about, we received one where they were, we'll probably read it in a future time, but they said, essentially they were going through their email and they said, this is the point in the email where Rex's elders quorum president should start listening.
Gerrit I think it's hilarious because Rex's elders quorum president has since then emailed us to say, guys, I don't skip it.
Other I was just worried that anyone else listening would hate it, so I told them to skip it.
Richard Not since Rachel's mom has there been a more popular character on the podcast than Rex's elders quorum president.
Gerrit He's surpassed Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo in townships quite a while ago.
Richard For being a total buzz killington.
Other It's hilarious because he had to email us to defend his honor to say, I listened to all of it.
Gerrit I just thought Rex wouldn't.
Richard So, for the Phebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag, and shout out, by the way, one more shout out to Rory, who is a friend of the show Rory, and less friend of the show Freddie, who as they commute, Rory makes Freddie listen to the podcast. It's not quite like a policeman with someone that he's arrested.
Other If you don't have another ride to work, it's pretty similar.
Richard It is. It is pretty similar.
Other The only difference is your hands aren't cuffed.
Richard Rory's like, hey, it's quite a drive, we're going to go ahead and put this on, and we're going to listen to it, and there's nothing you can do about it. I'm friends with both of them, and I got a text screenshot of what they were listening to as they were driving down.
Gerrit My question is, how many of our listeners are-
Richard It was the Gifts of Tongues episode, by the way. That was a good one.
Gerrit My question is, how many of our listeners are listening against their will?
Richard I would say, so based on the emails- It seems like the number is high. We've run the numbers. It's 47%.
Other Okay. So we're, we aren't quite at the tipping point. Not quite.
Gerrit Because at some point, if we get to 60 to 70% of involuntary listeners, what does that do for us?
Richard Well, a listen's a listen, man.
Gerrit Okay. Right. So it all counts.
Richard Yeah. So this email comes from a fan of the show, Tanner, and Tanner has sent many, many emails and he has asked many questions and he has told many funny stories. And we have read a collection of zero of those things.
Gerrit We get dozens and dozens and dozens of emails and Tanner has sent some great emails and he's been a listener for a long time. We like Tanner. The problem is Tanner, when he asks a question...
Richard Well, he asked a question here that we're not getting any touch with.
Gerrit Tanner likes to ask questions that are really, really, really good, but that would require me to take seven or eight episodes to answer.
Richard Well, this one was a heavy polygamy.
Gerrit Yeah, that's the problem. Tanner's most concerned about polygamy.
Richard And it wasn't like, hey guys, polygamy your thoughts. It was like a really specific...
Gerrit No, it was like, look, here's a publication on this. What do you think? I mean, and we will actually eventually get to that in season 38. The problem is I can't really answer. I mean, I have done it a few times, much to my everlasting regret, that we've tried to cover some topics on polygamy, and we can with some where they are tight enough that you can do it without talking about the entire system. This one's not because this one, it would require much more background.
Richard Which is funny because one of the ones you did was Miranda Hyde, right?
Gerrit And I believe that when we were done with that, we were like, we'll never ever do that again. Yeah. There's the propeller. Keep walking.
Richard So I will read the first part of Tanner's email, even though we have no intention of actually answering his question. As I roast here in the Protestant hell that is Las Vegas in summer. One of the things also Tanner, by the way, is so there's a timing issue too, right? So if we are going to talk about a particular topic and then we try and find an email that kind of ties into a particular thing.
Gerrit So he's in Vegas.
Richard Yes, he is.
Gerrit With our good friends who sent us the gift card to Olive Garden. That was lovely. That was. In fact, we have a picture we need to send of us eating at Olive Garden. Very nice. Mike and his wife sent us a gift card to Olive Garden as like a thank you and I want to tell you that we said we won't accept this and we sent it back, but it would be hard to tell you that after we already used it at the Olive Garden with our watch.
Richard So, it was very nice, so yes, Las Vegas, I was down at my, I saw my, I have some cousins that live in Vegas and we were down there this summer and it was just center of the sun. So freaking, so freaking hot. As I roast in the Protestant hell that is Las Vegas in the summer, I begun looking back at the many poor choices that brought me here. While doing so, my mind caught hold of the fact that I have been listening to the Standard of Truth for two years. Well, there's your first mistake, Tanner. Two long years during which my questions have gone unanswered, cherished stories and beliefs have been crushed and promises to speak on important topics never kept.
Other I don't think that we made it move to Vegas, no?
Richard Well, that's, well, I mean, well, this, the name of this episode is Apostles and Apostates Part Two. It's not. I am left to wonder, am I dead? Did I get it wrong? Am I here for eternity? Am I a missionary in Wisconsin? All joking aside, I wanted to again express my appreciation for this podcast, the premium content, the history, context and testimony you provide has been a great blessing in my life. And then it goes on to ask a very thoughtful and heartfelt question that we will not read or come close to answering. Tanner, thank you so much for your email.
Gerrit We appreciate your thoughtfulness. Thank you so much for listening Tanner, seriously. It is a great question. One though that we won't be able to get to till we're in the thick of it with the look of it.
Richard So this next email comes to us from Steve, subject mostly nice things, which is funny. I'm sure that by now you become weary of the endless praise and vast amounts of wealth generated by your podcast. Steve, I don't feel like you know us at all, actually.
Other I feel like you don't know us as well as you could.
Gerrit A, we could never tire of the praise.
Other B, what is this wealth you speak of?
Richard Yes, it's very, very, that's very funny. You should have known that starting a podcast centered around the theology and history of a minor religious sect was the one surefire path to fortune and glory. And truly, you are the driving cultural force of this generation that is very, very funny.
Gerrit And now, there's someone who understands satire.
Richard Yes, that's very, very good, a modest proposal indeed.
Gerrit We decided, you know what, there's not very many Mormons. Let's try to make a career out of that.
Richard Even with the risk of being drowned out, I'd be remiss if I did not add my voice of thanks to both of you for making an excellent podcast. I listened to an episode a day as a way to wind down. It actually is very effective at getting people to relax, wind down, fall asleep.
Gerrit I think this episode is going to make people angry because we're 20 minutes in.
Richard Yeah, we're not even close to getting to any, yeah, to Rex's Eldritch Corn President. Winding down, often while playing Elden Ring. My son loves that game, by the way. There's something poetic about slaying demonic monsters of rot and decay while strengthening your testimony of the restorative powers of Jesus at a mere 32 years of age. My circle of friends and colleagues have remained, my circle of friends and colleagues that have remained faithful has shrunk faster than I would have ever thought. While I'm not truly alone, sometimes I feel that way or I will be soon. Friends who I considered close as family and played a huge part in my own personal conversion in my early 20s have esteemed our shared experiences not. Usually after they leave the church, the friendship isn't far behind. Obviously there are those in church history who have endured far more and a lot longer than I have. Some even have to serve a mission in Wisconsin.
Gerrit Oh man, he's after my heart.
Richard And I look to their example on how to endure it well. As inspiring as those saints are, there is something truly comforting about the contemporary witness from two best friends who have a deep and thoughtful testimony of the Restored Gospel. Thank you for what you've done, and hopefully we'll continue to do. That's very sweet.
Gerrit Yeah, and Steve, you're not alone. We are with you, man. I mean, I know it does kind of feel like that. I mean, it's easy to look at the high-profile apostasies that we see, and especially when it's people that are your close friends, when it's family members, to just kind of almost say, am I the only one who's still going to be believing? I mean, I can tell you I've had that same experience with missionary companions, best friends from high school. I mean, I feel you. It is disheartening, and it is frustrating to see people, you know, to quote from, you know, the letter to Joseph, right? We spent many hours in heavenly places, you know, a letter Joseph wrote to the saints in Missouri, you know, those that we spent many hours reciting Jesus, right? That, to see those people leave, it's crushing and it's hard.
Gerrit So I understand. I am there with you. I feel for you.
Richard It goes on to say, I've tried to come up with the most interesting question I could. It seems like a lot of lessons in church history have to do with the period between the visit of Moroni and the Nauvoo Exodus. I think it was Truman Manson, the OG himself. That's awesome. Yeah, I don't know why.
Gerrit That's called Truman the OG.
Richard Yeah, well for sure.
Gerrit I like how we've spent several years, countless hours and our entire lives trying to replicate one person who was better than us and we failed.
Richard Oh, so dramatic. Who pointed out to me that the journey wasn't over just because the saints got to the valley. In fact, the trials were just starting. What were some of the biggest hurdles for Brigham and the church once they got there? How did they fix those problems and what problems replaced them? I tried to think of the most boring question I possibly could and I think I have a winner. Why does Doctrine and Covenants, Section 37, 38 and 39 refer to Ohio as the Ohio, the Ohio?
Other Wow, I don't think he wrote that.
Richard You know what? You might want to check your spelling there. I think you meant the Ohio. No, he wrote the Ohio.
Gerrit I'm looking at the email as well.
Richard Well, when you're from in Western, those, we need people to send in emails from Western Idaho. We pronounce the Ohio, the Ohio. We always have, we always will.
Gerrit Just like, it's like crick.
Other Yeah. Well, yeah.
Richard C-R-E-E-K, crick.
Gerrit Yeah, yeah.
Other The Ohio.
Richard The grammar strikes me as incredibly strange, even for the 19th century. So that's the question. Well, that's a question. That is a question.
Gerrit We'll come back. But let me, should we want to come back to that? You want to finish the email?
Richard Well, if you can, if you have a quick response on the Ohio, that'd be great.
Gerrit Do I have a quick response on anything?
Richard Why don't you go to the Ohio and then we'll come back to it.
Gerrit Well, so, this is a good question, because D&C 37 and 38, of course, commanding the saints to go to the Ohio. And there they will receive God's law and they will receive an endowment of powers, what they're told. So why is it calling it the Ohio? Well, there's a couple of reasons for this, but a lot of it is the history of that area is very interesting. When the colonies were first established, now, this is, we're going to get townshipy here real quick, okay? But when the colonies were first established, several of them, especially the first one, Massachusetts, well, the first northern colony, Virginia is the first colony, but it's a southern colony, but in the north, the Massachusetts colony, first established as the colony of New England in 1620, has a charter that has granted it an area where they can settle.
Gerrit It gives its northern boundaries, it gives its southern boundaries, and its western boundaries are from C to C. Well, in 1620, they don't really know where the other part of the C is, but Massachusetts and other colonies in New England and others in the south will do this as well. They will pattern their charter after the Charter of New England. And the Charter of New England, don't worry, will get replaced by the Plymouth Colony Charters. Those words, they're all mixed in there somewhere.
Other Don't worry, they're going to get replaced.
Gerrit Well, I mean, I'm worried that someone... I assume that there are Massachusetts listening right now, who are like, what do you mean, Colony of New England? That's just what the Charter... And you know who granted that Charter? Guess who it was? Someone every Latter-day Saint knows from English history.
Richard I'm going to say William Wallace.
Gerrit English. Actually, you know what? He is Scottish.
Richard Yeah. Well, I mean, the English, you know, the problem with Scotland is that it's full of Scots.
Gerrit King James. Oh, there you go. Every Latter-day Saint knows King James, who is actually the King of Scotland.
Richard Yeah, that's right. You know what? It wasn't as far off as I thought.
Gerrit Yeah. Although William Wallace would have not been happy with the combining of the realms. In fact, King James was everything William Wallace wasn't. Even a Protestant. So there's that. But King James is the one who grants that charter. And it's from sea to sea. Well, Connecticut patterns its charter very similarly. And so it's granted from sea to sea. Similarly, Virginia's colony just extends further to the west. Now, eventually as you extend further to the west, part of the problem is, well, not only do Native Americans live there, the French live there. I mean, at least the French claim those areas.
Richard My ancestor.
Gerrit Well, no, because his acre was just in Quebec. So his one acre, the plantation that he secured after years and years of effort was only in Quebec. But-
Richard He had a half acre in Lyon, so that was quite an upgrade. You know what?
Gerrit We have not been giving him enough credit for the fact that he-
Richard He was living in a shack in Lyon and then he's off in-
Gerrit Although he was living on half an acre in one of the larger metropolitan areas of France and moved to a place with barely 100 people living in it and only got twice the size?
Richard I'm making up the size. He was from Lyon, but I don't know.
Gerrit Oh, so he didn't own any land in Lyon?
Richard Yeah.
Gerrit Well, you know, that makes it a little better. You know what? This is the LeDuc family.
Richard The new friends.
Other The LeDuc family.
Gerrit I'd like to say it's the American dream, but it's not because it's the French-Canadian dream.
Richard 70% taxes and an acre of land.
Gerrit Yeah. Well, so all of the colonies, several of them will make these same types of claims that just go perpetually to the West. Well, it's an easy thing to say when you assume that the Western Sea is going to be a couple hundred miles in. When you realize it's 2,500 miles and multiple mountain ranges, that becomes a little bit more untenable. But these colonies were still unwilling to relinquish their claims. In fact, if you have ever heard of the part of Ohio that the Saints settle in, in Kirtland, you will probably have heard of people refer to it as the Western Reserve. Have you ever heard of Western Reserve? I have not. Not even Western Reserve University?
Richard I've heard of Western Governors. Well, that's not the same. I've heard of Case Western. That's in Ohio.
Gerrit No, that's why it's called Case Western.
Richard Well, that, there we go. Coming around.
Gerrit Well, so why was it called the Western Reserve? It was called the Western Reserve because it was Connecticut's Western Reserve. I'm going to have to have Richard put a map up for everybody to show you how ridiculous this land claim is.
Richard Boy, Connecticut needs to get over themselves.
Gerrit Connecticut is claiming that even though their Western boundaries run into multiple states, that when it gets on the other side of New York and Pennsylvania, it picks up at the same parallel that it was at in Southern Connecticut. And that it just goes on in perpetuity. Massachusetts did the same thing. Massachusetts claimed that Massachusetts went right through Michigan and just kept on going. Now you're thinking, why does any of this matter? This isn't even close to answering my question.
Richard The Ohio. That was the question.
Gerrit That's the question. Well, so there's a real problem that all of these colonies are claiming as part of their territory, land over which they have absolutely no control over, and that if people move to, they are so completely divorced from the colonial government back in Boston, that of course they're going to be difficult to govern. One of the great fears of the founders was, how is it that you would prevent a England and America situation from happening in the new colonies, in the new United States? Isn't someone living in what is today, you know, Western Tennessee, going to be, feel just as aloof and just as put upon by the majority population that is there in Eastern Virginia, in Richmond and Jamestown, when it's that population center that's dictating the taxation of the people living in what is today Western Tennessee?
Gerrit Because that was part of Virginia at the time. And so one of the ingenious successes of the Articles of Confederation Government is that the colonies will agree, the new states, because they're states at this point, this is, you know, after the Revolution, they will agree.
Richard Hold on. So if you are a premium listener and you're listening to Condemn to Repeat It, we, spoiler alert.
Gerrit Yeah, this is a big spoiler alert.
Richard Yeah, they're now states after the Revolution. Because we were leading along.
Gerrit Some of you might wonder whether or not the United States wins the American Revolution.
Richard Well, now you've ruined it.
Gerrit I haven't even told them there is a Revolution yet in Condemn to Repeat It.
Richard It's true. We're not even there.
Gerrit So those, all of the states agree to cede their rights to these western areas that were unsettled back to the federal government. And the idea would then be the federal government would create territories that would eventually be populated enough to where they could become states. And the genius of the United States was, instead of having a Great Britain that's trying to rule a colony 2,000 miles away, dictating to it without giving it any legislation, is that all government in America would be local government. That instead of Connecticut trying to run Cleveland, that part of what would later be Ohio would become part of the state of Ohio, and it would run its own affairs, rather than everyone in Connecticut trying to... I realize that ESPN's big there, but aside from that...
Richard ESPN, Women's Huskies Basketball, that's the list.
Gerrit All day, yeah. I mean, yeah, there's all kinds.
Richard And really, Women's Huskies Basketball has penetrated into Ohio and to Michigan.
Gerrit Well, they've certainly beaten everybody.
Richard They have.
Gerrit Yeah, they're crushing everybody. Well, so the Northwest Ordinance, which is designed to organize those territories that are won from Britain after the Revolution, that are ceded by these various states, these territories that are this western or that are claimed, the way that that bill is phrased is it's phrased as an ordinance for the territories north of the River Ohio is how it's called. The Ohio River is a big river, okay? You don't think of it maybe because you're always thinking of the Mississippi. If anyone lives near the Ohio River, they know it's a big deal, okay? And that entire north of that river is called the Ohio River Valley. So it's named the Ohio River Valley long before there's a state of Ohio. The terminology of the Ohio, meaning all of the land north of the river, is the way that it's termed in those early colonial documents.
Gerrit So when someone writes, they are headed to the Ohio country, they don't mean the state of Ohio. They mean all of that area north of the Ohio River that was won from Britain in the Revolutionary War, but that wasn't an established territory or state yet.
Richard So then going to his question about the Doctrine and Covenants, at the time that Joseph's going there, it is...
Gerrit The state of Ohio already exists, but there is still a cultural way that people talk about going from the New England and Middle Colony, Middle States, to that area of the country. It's the Ohio area, even if you're going to Indiana. And so, yeah, it is a little bit older. It's interesting that that's how the Lord tells them to go to the Ohio, go to the Ohio country. They certainly aren't going to the Ohio River. In fact, they settle as far away from the Ohio River as they can in Ohio. They're right up there on the lake, for crying out loud, almost. But it's that entire territory. Now, maybe that's allowing for a little bit of ambivalence about where the settlement is, for all I know. I mean, maybe that means you could have settled somewhere else and maybe God's letting them pick and choose a little bit. I don't really know. But yeah, the term the Ohio is this reference to that territory that's all north of the Ohio River.
Gerrit And it will eventually become multiple states, Ohio, Indiana, right? It went away, all that.
Richard Steve, are you happy with that answer?
Gerrit I don't think so.
Richard No.
Gerrit Is anyone listening happy with that answer?
Richard Couldn't possibly be.
Gerrit By the way, you'll notice that the Ohio State University follows that same tradition.
Richard I've always actually wondered that. That's why. Why do they call them? I always thought it was that they were so arrogant.
Gerrit It's the Ohio.
Richard So it's the Ohio.
Gerrit They're the state university.
Richard So it's not the Ohio state, but it's the Ohio.
Gerrit The Ohio area state university.
Richard Okay. You know what? All right. I'm going to back off a little bit on my Buckeye hatred.
Gerrit I need you to stop hating on Buckeyes.
Richard I'm going to a Ohio state game later this year.
Gerrit Now, I would guess that most Buckeye fans think that it's, we are the Ohio state university.
Richard That's how they, they always say it that way.
Other I know that's how they say it.
Gerrit But that's.
Richard So they're ignorant to their own history. They don't know what they're talking about.
Gerrit Our podcast thrives on being ignorant to our own history.
Other We wouldn't exist otherwise.
Richard The ignorance of naming conventions in the early or the late 1600s.
Gerrit This has got me excited. I kind of want to spend the rest of the time on the Northwest Ordinance.
Richard Well, so there's, there's one more piece here to Steve's, Steve's email.
Gerrit We're going to go back to the Northwest Ordinance as soon as I possibly can though.
Richard So, the question I've been pondering endlessly other than the Ohio, there have been roughly a hundred billion people on this planet, give or take. Many have had a form of religion in one way or another. While I believe in a sort of universal salvation, the fact is that a lot of these people wasted a good chunk of their lives worshiping a false God. What are the chances truly that I found the right one? And if I have, which I think I have, why would the Lord pick someone like me to carry that fire? Why not someone more competent?
Gerrit Well, that's a pretty self-effacing question, Steve. And in fact, that we're all about self-effacing questions on the Standard of Truth podcast.
Richard But I thought it was a pretty sincere and thoughtful reflective question.
Gerrit I think about that all the time. I mean, I have thought, I mean, there was a time when I had the thought when I was younger, how is it possible that what we have is true and just everyone else isn't true? I mean, come on. It really is just a variation of the question that was asked of Martin Luther and every other reformer all the way down the line. If what you, so let me get this straight, Martin Luther, you're the only person who's ever read the Bible correctly in the last 1500 years. You're pretty proud of yourself, aren't you, Martin?
Richard And the answer is yes, he was.
Gerrit And that's exactly what Martin would say. Look, no, it's always been there, you guys just haven't been reading it. And but that is exactly what the Catholic Church is, at least part of their attack on Martin Luther was. What kind of hubris and arrogance do you have to suppose that the millions of Christians who came before you were just all wrong? In many ways, the question you're asking, holistically, right, of everyone on the world, I don't mean like that you're shopping at Whole Foods. I mean, the question you're asking about the entire world is actually pretty similar to the question that Brigham Young is asking when he's confronted with the vision. Because Joseph Smith is teaching that Protestant hell doesn't really exist. And I know we just did a podcast on that, so I'm not going to spend any more time on it. But Brigham is stunned.
Gerrit And one of the reasons why he's stunned is, as he says, suppose it is true. And you can almost hear him arguing with himself. If it is true, that means every Christian I know, including my parents, including the pastors who taught me Jesus at all. Every single one of them is wrong. And it seems like that was one of the major things that caused Brigham to struggle to accept it. The very radicalism of what is being taught is by nature something then that no one else believes.
Richard So there is something though that's beautiful about this, right? Because while we're saying that everyone is wrong, we're also saying that none of it is exclusionary.
Gerrit Yeah. That's exactly right. I mean, as you said in your question, we believe not only that there is a type of universal salvation for people who don't accept, we believe that everyone is going to have an equal opportunity at exaltation. Not just, hey, don't worry, you're going to eventually go to the Sandals Resort that the telestial Kingdom is after you burn for a while. But it's not as bad as Protestant or Catholic Hill, so okay. We're saying, somehow, through the power of the Atonement, which is exactly what Brigham Young teaches, how are these people going to be saved that never had the Gospel? Through the power of the Atonement. And that may not make sense to us, because when we look at the truth of the Gospel that we have, it is a little bit overwhelming. It's overwhelming because it is so different from what everyone else believes, and yet almost no one else believes it.
Gerrit And so I'll even be asked the question, not just by you, but people saying, are you trying to tell me that you're just one of the few lucky ones who figure out the truth and everyone else is wrong? And it is a tough thing to say yes, but that's honestly not that much different a position than all of the early Christians were in. All of the early Christians were in a world where almost nobody, 99.999999% of all the people in the world did not believe in Jesus. And so if you were an early Christian, I mean, you were in the same boat. How is it possible that I know that Jesus is my Savior and that there are no other gods, even though literally everyone on earth believes there's dozens, hundreds, thousands of gods?
Gerrit How is it possible I'm the only one who knows that?
Richard So I actually had an experience similar to this situation yesterday in the great state of Arizona.
Gerrit I feel like you invented this.
Richard I'm making it all up.
Gerrit This is a little time where like I was at an IHOP, it was...
Richard No, so I was at a trade show through Arizona State and some local...
Gerrit Did they have Big 12 banners up yet?
Richard I did go up to the Arizona State Representative, and I said, I'm so excited to have you in the Big 12. And she's like, I know, isn't this so exciting?
Other She was fine with it.
Richard Oh, she was very excited. Right. Because there's Washington State and Oregon State.
Other So she was just happy to have a landing spot. Yeah.
Richard But so it was an interesting thing. It was a good show. It was a small business expo thing for the state of Arizona that was hosted by Arizona State. And this woman came up to the booth and asked where I was from. And I said that I was from Utah. And all of a sudden, all of the advantages that my company offers to small businesses no longer existed because she just wanted to talk about Mormonism.
Other Did you go right into polygamy like Tanner?
Gerrit Did you go full Tanner on it?
Richard Yeah, I was talking about the late Nauvoo period.
Gerrit And you know, not just polygamy, we're going to talk about some of those really precise aspects of it.
Other I'm talking ceiling dates. I'm talking, you know, who was doing the ceiling.
Richard So yeah, so after I finished with talking about Helen Mar Kimball, I was able to, I talked, she, she, her CPA was LDS guy.
Gerrit Okay.
Richard And he has, he has invited her to temple open houses.
Gerrit Oh man, what a nice guy.
Richard Yeah, super nice guy, right?
Gerrit I wish we could get his name and give him a shout out, but he wouldn't listen to us if he's going to the temple.
Richard No, no. He probably could taste them.
Gerrit Yeah, he's probably, he's following him all the way.
Other He's the one listening to people who are building banks.
Richard Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's listening to Hicks, Smith and John, by the way. Absolutely. We're like, good stuff. So, anyway, so we get into general conversation, and she makes a comment, and she's an assembly of God, worshipping Christian woman. They have like, they've raised 21 foster kids. Like, she's like the most incredible lady. She's like the greatest Christian on earth. Yeah, she's like the greatest, she's way better Christian than we are. Way better than me.
Gerrit Meanwhile, we are talking about Mutiny on the Bounty.
Richard And likely gambling, which we don't do.
Gerrit We don't actually gamble.
Richard At all, but anyway.
Gerrit Although we do have a friend, Brian.
Richard No, no, not that Brian, different Brian. You wouldn't know it.
Gerrit Not the one you're thinking of.
Richard You wouldn't know, and it goes to a different school. So anyway, so here in this conversation, she makes a comment where she says, now I know that you don't believe that I go to heaven if I'm not Mormon.
Other Wow.
Richard And she's like, but I, you know, but I think that, I think it's really important just, you know, to love Jesus. And I said, I don't believe that at all. I believe the opposite of that.
Gerrit You believe literally everyone's going to heaven.
Richard And so it was interesting. So to Steve's point, like we didn't get into a...
Gerrit What did she say when you said, I believe everyone's going to heaven?
Richard Well, I didn't say I believe everyone's going to heaven.
Other You didn't want to... You were about to incur the wrath. We're going to have a conversation with Richard about being bold and proclaiming gospel truth.
Richard Yeah, I didn't say, I believe all dogs go to heaven. I said, I said, oh no, I don't believe that at all. We don't believe that at all. In fact, we believe the opposite. So I said, we believe the opposite.
Gerrit But you didn't come right out and say, we don't even, everyone's going.
Richard Yeah, I said, no, we believe the opposite as God is.
Other So you went right in the corner and you can follow it.
Gerrit We're going to eventually do some podcasts on the King Follett sermon.
Richard We've done a King Follett part one two years ago.
Gerrit And we have yet to do part two. Back then, my voice is higher. I haven't been smoking as much.
Richard We haven't released it yet, but it's heavy.
Gerrit We thought first we'd build up a fan base.
Other We're talking about The Ohio.
Gerrit That could then leave us precipitously when we speak this hard doctrine.
Richard Yes, fall apart like glass. Well, so it was actually a beautiful, like I don't, you know, Arizona has a pretty decent LDS population and she knows many LDS people. And I'm sure that she's had multiple conversations. I know with her CPA that they've gone through and toured the temple. But I don't think that, I think that she felt like, like there's an element of what Steve says here where we're both, yes, I believe that the things that we're teaching are correct. But I think that you're, you know, you're fine. You're going to be just fine because God loves you more than you can comprehend.
Gerrit Right. I mean, and I think that's kind of the point that we have to fall back on is Latter-day Saint theology is exclusionary in that sense, in the sense that Latter-day Saints are claiming that God has given priesthood authoritative keys to his prophets and apostles on earth who then distributed them. And that those aren't held other places. Now, that doesn't mean that there aren't amazing Christians doing amazing things who God loves very much, who very much love God. It just means that there's only, there are certain ordinances that are required for exaltation and only our church has the authority to perform those ordinances. But it's not exclusionary in the sense that well, now no one else has a chance to be exalted because we believe that all of those people, all of them will in some way have the same opportunity at exaltation.
Gerrit However, God judges that. And as Brigham Young will teach that specifically because of the power of the atonement of Jesus Christ. So is there a mortal life wasted? Well, I don't think so. I mean, I know that Martin Luther wouldn't agree, well, at least in life, wouldn't agree. Probably have some Lutherans listening right now. He wouldn't agree right now.
Other But he will never agree. Here he stands. He can do no other, even in the spirit world.
Gerrit But that doesn't mean that he wasn't a man of God for his day. Right? People like William Tyndale and these other great reformers, they certainly faced the difference between abandoning faith for the world and embracing it. Did they know the exact nature of God? No, neither did I when I was first converted. When I first gained a testimony of the Gospel, I didn't know anything about the King Follett Sermon. I mean, when I first had the Holy Spirit testify to me that Joseph Smith was a prophet, I didn't in that instance know that his man is God once was and his God is man may become. I didn't. So you can very fervently believe and that belief is still accounted to you for righteousness even if it's not exactly right.
Gerrit The reality is even Latter-day Saints today, for all the knowledge that we have, we don't have all of the keys yet restored because the last key is the key of the resurrection. That's coming with Jesus. We don't have that yet. We have an article of faith that says God will yet reveal many great and important things. Well, if God's going to reveal many great and important things, that means by definition, there are absolutely true things that we don't know. Does that mean my life's a failure if I live my whole life thinking X and 20 years after I die, the prophet reveals Y, the prophet reveals Z? It's not a failure because I lived my life in accordance with the light and knowledge that I had. And the best part about our judge is that he is not the angry arbiter who's slamming his fist down on the temple demanding his pound of flesh.
Gerrit He is desperate for all of us to become like him. So I don't know what the algorithm is whereby our Heavenly Father and Jesus and the Twelve Apostles and the Nephite disciples judge us. But I know that everyone's going to have an equal chance. So maybe this woman won't ever become a Latter-day Saint in this life, certainly with Richard hiding in his shell and not telling her about the fact we don't believe in hell. But that was a cheap shot, wasn't it?
Richard Here I had this 20-minute conversation.
Gerrit It was like an amazing conversation. Richard sure failed.
Richard It was really Monday morning quarter back then.
Other Yeah, I guess he was the district president in his empty seat.
Richard You're like, what, she didn't get baptized?
Gerrit Maybe she should try being righteous. But look at what she has accomplished. She has sacrificed in her life doing everything she can to help people the way she believes Jesus wants her to help people. She has a relationship with Jesus and knows that Jesus is her savior. Now she doesn't fully understand all of the things that will be required for exaltation, but she's got the most important thing first right. She loves God and she loves other people more than she loves herself. It doesn't matter how many wonderfully great accomplishments you can stack up on top of each other, if you don't have the love of Jesus for other people, you have nothing according to Moroni. It's meaningless.
Gerrit It is meaningless. You can sit and quote doctrine all day long, but if that doctrine hasn't changed you to make you desperately love your fellow human beings, you're spending the wrong time with the wrong, reading the wrong things. If you truly come to have a testimony of the Lord Jesus Christ, one of the evidences of that is you will find yourself having a natural love of your fellow men. You will see men and women around you, and sure they will annoy you, sure they'll upset you. Yes, you're living an immortal life. I'm not going to speak about this like it's some kind of Pollyanna thing. Joseph Smith was a lover of other people, but he also knew how to rebuke. He also, when he had newspaper editors slander the church, he was more than willing to write a letter saying, hey, you garbage newspaper, you can publish this rebuttal in your trash paper, if you will.
Gerrit He was more than willing to speak truth to power, like we might say today. But ultimately, if that person needed his help, he would help them. And people recognize that about Joseph. They recognize that he was, while he was certain that what he had was true, it didn't cause him to speak ill of other religions, except in the sense that they were trying to destroy him. But he was letting Unitarian ministers come and preach to the saints in Nauvoo. A Methodist would show up and preach to the saints in Nauvoo. Joseph was regularly granting his pulpit to other ministers who would spend the entire time trying to convert Latter-day Saints back to the quote unquote real truth. And Joseph said it's because he didn't have any fear of people leaving it.
Gerrit Because the greatest light and knowledge was here. So yeah, go ahead and tell us all about tell us all about Calvin as God. Tell us all about how almost no one is saved. If that is convincing any Latter-day Saints, well, I don't want you to be a member of the church anyway, or you clearly don't really believe. I mean, Brigham Young, after Joseph is murdered, is going to set out as a test of fellowship. He's going to say, it is a test of fellowship to believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, that he lived as a prophet of God, and that he died a prophet of God, and that he didn't make mistakes or whatever, or there weren't doctrines that were wrong, that needed to be thrown out. And I think that as Latter-day Saints, we can both embrace our Christian brothers and sisters. We can have some holy envy for them where we can say, I wish when I went to a Sunday school lesson that people were so desperately praising Jesus for their salvation as they are when I go to a Baptist church.
Gerrit I wish that I was so totally unafraid to speak what I believe that in the middle of a city council meeting, I'm quoting something from Corinthians, like some of our fellow Christians will do. But it's not wasted. Think of how many people they have brought the Light of Christ into the lives that they've touched. Think of all the foster children that woman has had.
Richard That was what she claimed is a crowning achievement. 21 foster children. Well, that is a crowning achievement. But 21 foster children raised in the Lord is what she will say.
Gerrit And that is an amazing achievement.
Richard You bet.
Gerrit It's just a matter of the fact that at some point, whether it's in this life or the next life, people will realize or they'll learn that there is something beyond heaven. In fact, if you had to call Latter-day Saint religion something, it would be something higher than heaven. Because we already believe that Christians are going to heaven. We already believe. And the type of heaven that Christians think they're going to, a place of absolute joy, absolute bliss.
Richard Is exactly where they're going.
Gerrit Yeah. They're already, she's 100% right that that's where she's going. It's just that we actually believe that there's something even higher than heaven. And that's something that's really hard for many Christians to comprehend. I know that's not really what the original question is because he's saying, you know, how is it possible that I'm so lucky? I don't know. But I know that believers from the beginning of time have asked that same question. When they found themselves in a position of radicalism, when they found themselves like Martin Luther or Orwick Zwingli, when everyone believes something opposite of you, they had to ask that same question. Is it possible that me, the lone monk in Germany, is right that salvation comes by faith and grace, and the rest of the entire Christian world doesn't? Is it possible that I'm right?
Richard There's something he says that I've felt on my mission that the 13 kids that I have that are all on missions right now it seems that-
Gerrit It's only two, but they're multiplying.
Richard Well, why not someone more competent is his question. I'm pretty confident my sweet son flying to Peru might be thinking that a little bit. My son in Barcelona might be thinking that a little bit. I know I sure felt that a lot on my mission. Now, as Gerrit criticizes my missionary efforts in Arizona.
Gerrit Well, look, I mean, you could have at least pulled out the King Fallen service.
Richard No, but I've thought that too, right? Like here we have all of these things, and I lack the ability to be able to articulate this as well as I wish I could.
Gerrit There are many nights that I have cried myself to sleep as I have met with people and tried to help them overcome some of their questions and concerns about church history. And sometimes it's just a little bit too late or they don't want to believe. And yet I can still tell that they're a really good person. And yet they just don't want to believe anymore. Yeah, I fail most of the time. Certainly, there are people over this world who do a better job of sharing the gospel than I would. And I don't know why it is that God granted me the chance of hearing about this when so many other people didn't have it. I think in the grand scheme of things, our mortal lives are so incredibly short. For a Christian, they don't think of it that way because they think God just barely created them.
Gerrit They see this as their beginning. Their 30, 40, 50 years of life is all that they've ever existed. I think for Latter-day Saints, it's very important that we remember that we believe that we are eternal beings that have always existed. So if you've always existed before you came here, and you're always going to exist after you leave here, then think of just how small, what a blip of your existence this mortal life will be. And since it's hard to put things in perspective, let's say that your pre-mortal existence, even though it is eternal, let's say that it's a trillion years. And let's say that your post-mortal existence is a trillion years. And you live 60 here, or 80. Maybe you exercise and get to 90. I don't know.
Richard No, 55. I'm not going to do any exercise.
Gerrit How old are you now?
Richard 43.
Other 44.
Gerrit So let's say it's 44.
Other Let's say that it's 44.
Gerrit I mean, how small will this Earth life seem? And I know that it doesn't seem like that to you because we don't remember the premortal life. You will have a veil even after you die. But on the great day of resurrection, that veil is going to be gone. You will remember all of your premortal life. And then what will the 10 years of difficulty seem like compared to the trillions of years of being in the presence of your father? That doesn't mean you won't still have suffered. It doesn't mean that you won't still have had the agony of anguish. But it does mean that perspective wise, it will be different. And so, I think for our Christian brothers and sisters, our Buddhist and Muslim brothers and sisters, our Hindu and Sikh brothers and sisters, our atheist and agnostic brothers and sisters raised in countries where they aren't even allowed to have a religion.
Gerrit At some point, they will know what you and I know. And, it seems like a really big deal that you and I know it 20, 30, 40, 50 years before they do in this mortal life, but remember, they also all know it or they wouldn't be here. They've known it for trillions of years. They've known it forever. They just don't remember that they've known it. And that's why a loving father, when he gathers us all home, it will not be a club that very few are on the list and allowed in. His arms are outstretched and he is going to be gathering us all up. I don't think we understand the great love our Heavenly Father has for us. We don't understand the depth of mercy that has afforded us because of the Atonement.
Gerrit And at some point, when that veil is finally gone, the 20, the 30, the 40 years, it will be nothing compared to the knowledge of who our Father is that will come rushing back to us like a damn bursting. And our loving Father will judge us absolutely, perfectly on the basis of what was even possible for us based on our knowledge. Brigham Young's pretty adamant about it, that the great reformers, great Christians who lived before, they're going to be exalted. They're not losing anything in their exaltation because they happened to have been born in the wrong century. And that's honestly one of the best parts of being a Latter Day Saint. I don't have to believe that a billion Muslims are going to hell. I don't have to believe it.
Gerrit Instead, I get to believe that every single person who has ever lived on this earth isn't just going to have a chance at exaltation, they're going to have an equal chance that God loves all of us. It's far as Richard was talking to his friend, it's the exact opposite. This is not an exclusionary religion. This is a religion that is expansive. In fact, it rules to fill the entire earth. In this life or the next, everyone's going to have their opportunity. So thank you so much for your questions. We're going to try to get to some more emails next week, but we'll probably fail more times than we are successful. We need a better tagline to sign off. Maybe like go subscribe to the premium. No, don't do that.
Other Where are you going? You don't do that.
Gerrit Actually, that'd be great.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.

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Although I was the first one to tell them we were Mormons. Richard spent three nights sitting next to these people at dinner building a relationship of trust.

GerritBanter

He watched an Australian movie just so he had something to talk to them about the next night.

GerritBanter

So it's named the Ohio River Valley long before there's a state of Ohio.

GerritInsight

If what you, so let me get this straight, Martin Luther, you're the only person who's ever read the Bible correctly in the last 1500 years. You're pretty proud of yourself, aren't you, Martin?

GerritBanter

And all of a sudden, all of the advantages that my company offers to small businesses no longer existed because she just wanted to talk about Mormonism.

RichardBanter

Yeah, I didn't say, I believe all dogs go to heaven.

RichardBanter

He is desperate for all of us to become like him.

GerritInsight

And I don't know why it is that God granted me the chance of hearing about this when so many other people didn't have it.

GerritInsight

This is not an exclusionary religion. This is a religion that is expansive.

GerritInsight

More from this episode

Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.

Claim check

What critics say, and what the episode found
Latter-day Saints believe you can't go to heaven unless you're a Mormon.
People who lived and died in another faith wasted their lives.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.

Take it to class

Ready to copy into a lesson or a text

"The Ohio" in the revelations was ordinary early American speech for the whole region north of the Ohio River.

Latter-day Saints believe only the church holds the keys for saving ordinances, but not that others are shut out: everyone will have an equal chance at exaltation.

Living faithfully by the light you have is never wasted, since God will yet reveal many great and important things.

If you feel alone as friends leave the church, you aren't: the hosts have felt it too, and our short mortal life will look very different once we remember our pre-mortal lives.

Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.

Banter bin

The running jokes, for people who skip ahead
The MTC district leaderRanked just below Putin, guarding the mailbox key like Captain Bligh, and treating breakfast as the sixth seal (1:37, 3:30, 5:48).
Tracking the flight like SantaRichard follows his son over Florida and Tampa during the recording (4:49, 7:40).
Happy 50th (or 70th) birthday, LisaBy the time it airs she'll be older, so replay it every year (7:16).
The Pac-12 collapse and the Big 12Sorry, Wazzu and the Beavers; maybe more Texas listeners now (8:13, 12:29, 44:21).
BRT with the Australian coupleRichard watched Australian movies for three nights; Gerrit opened with "y'all heard of Mormons?" (11:17, 11:43).
Rex's elders quorum presidentMore popular than any character since Rachel's mom, past the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo and townships (12:34, 13:13).
Involuntary listenersRory makes Freddie listen on the commute; 47% of listeners are there against their will (13:40, 14:31).
Tanner and the missionary in WisconsinTanner's polygamy question waits for season 38, and he wonders if he's dead or a missionary in Wisconsin (15:22, 18:04).
Joseph LeDuc's acreThe French-Canadian dream: 70% taxes and an acre of land (28:03, 28:57).
The Ohio State UniversityRichard backs off his Buckeye hatred once he learns the history (36:58).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

Your question could be next week’s episode
Questions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
General ConferenceGeneral Conference talks that cite a scripture read in this episode.

In General Conference

Talks from the latest General Conference that cite a scripture this episode reads or names on air
October 2026 General Conference · cites D&C 76Come to the Lord in His Holy HouseElder Gerrit W. GongElder Gong lays out three doctrinal foundations for temple worship: eternal families, moral agency, and the Holy Spirit of Promise, which makes honored covenants binding.

Summaries, themes and lessons for every talk are on What Did They Say?

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Deep dives the episode points toward
Steve's other question: the biggest trials Brigham Young and the Saints faced after reaching the Salt Lake Valley (22:45).
Sea-to-sea colonial charters and Connecticut's Western Reserve in Ohio (25:49, 30:01).
The Northwest Ordinance and how it shaped the states that grew out of "the Ohio" (34:01).
Joseph Smith inviting Unitarian and Methodist ministers to preach in Nauvoo (56:21).
SOT Litner · S3E33.