Not only was I not wrong, I couldn't have been more right. As almost PhD Richard, I am at my most arrogant right now.
Standard of Truth · Season 3 · Episode 36 · 49:53
Questioning Richard's Understanding of Authority
In an 1856 report from England, Franklin D. Richards used "general authorities" to mean the common, local church leaders, almost the opposite of how we use it now.
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The question ·
Anyone above a stake president has always been referred to as a General Authority.
Janet (listener)
Janet, who says she's close to three quarters of a century old, calls Richard to the carpet for calling Area Seventies something other than General Authorities, and she assigns him homework. Richard protests that he never said it, and that Gerrit did all the research. Gerrit explains the history: the Assistants to the Twelve from 1941 to 1976, the 1995 change creating Area Authority Seventies, and how titles and quorums have shifted, from President Uchtdorf returning to the Twelve to D&C 102's high councils in 1834. He traces how "general authority" was used over time, sometimes meaning common local leaders, and reads the church's own definitions today. Gerrit lands on the idea that a growing church led by revelation is supposed to change, and the gangrenous antelope of a podcast hobbles on.
Who comes upGordon B. HinckleyDieter F. UchtdorfFranklin D. RichardsJoseph SmithBrigham YoungEarl C. TingeyBoyd K. Packer
Now playing · 0:46
Called to the carpet
Richard admits a listener's email lit him up, and Gerrit wonders if he got caught smoking in middle school.
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384 moments · tap a time to play from thereIntro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources, and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.
Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources, and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. In this week's episode, we respond to a listener's email that lit me up a little bit, called me to the carpet.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. In this week's episode, we respond to a listener's email that lit me up a little bit, called me to the carpet.
Gerrit Now, when you say lit you up, was this kind of like you were caught smoking in middle school type of a thing?
Gerrit Now, when you say lit you up, was this kind of like you were caught smoking in middle school type of a thing?
Richard No, no, she took umbrage with something that I had said.
Richard No, no, she took umbrage with something that I had said.
Gerrit I think even the word umbrage is...
Gerrit I think even the word umbrage is...
Richard Well, and I think she's expecting something kind of conciliatory here, where I comment.
Richard Well, and I think she's expecting something kind of conciliatory here, where I comment.
Gerrit Well, let's first, let me ask the question, were you wrong?
Gerrit Well, let's first, let me ask the question, were you wrong?
Richard I was not wrong.
Richard I was not wrong.
Gerrit Okay, so that, one of the things about making a reconciliation is someone at some point has to admit...
Gerrit Okay, so that, one of the things about making a reconciliation is someone at some point has to admit...
Richard Not only was I not wrong, I couldn't have been more right. As almost PhD Richard, I am at my most arrogant right now.
Richard Not only was I not wrong, I couldn't have been more right. As almost PhD Richard, I am at my most arrogant right now.
Gerrit So, you have, weren't you initially in your first class of your PhD program, you had all of your hubris beaten out of you, right?
Gerrit So, you have, weren't you initially in your first class of your PhD program, you had all of your hubris beaten out of you, right?
Richard Oh, I was, I felt like I couldn't have possibly have known less. I felt like an idiot.
Richard Oh, I was, I felt like I couldn't have possibly have known less. I felt like an idiot.
Gerrit It was funny, like you even felt bad about things that had nothing to do with business PhDs. You're like, I'm a terrible father.
Gerrit It was funny, like you even felt bad about things that had nothing to do with business PhDs. You're like, I'm a terrible father.
Richard Well, that had always been the case, but yes, and so this is maximum arrogant me. I mean, I just, I had a meeting with my dissertation committee just this week and things seem to be going well. They, they liked the direction of some of it, although one of the people on the committee said that she thought that my idea was cute. I don't know that.
Richard Well, that had always been the case, but yes, and so this is maximum arrogant me. I mean, I just, I had a meeting with my dissertation committee just this week and things seem to be going well. They, they liked the direction of some of it, although one of the people on the committee said that she thought that my idea was cute. I don't know that.
Gerrit Wow.
Gerrit Wow.
Richard Other than that comment, other than that, it went really, really well.
Richard Other than that comment, other than that, it went really, really well.
Gerrit Richard, I think you need to start considering the fact that you may not be getting a PhD.
Gerrit Richard, I think you need to start considering the fact that you may not be getting a PhD.
Richard It's likely. Well, that Richard will be very conciliatory.
Richard It's likely. Well, that Richard will be very conciliatory.
Gerrit Right.
Richard Not this one.
Gerrit Right.
Richard Not this one.
Gerrit But our listener, do we have a name for our listener?
Gerrit But our listener, do we have a name for our listener?
Richard Janet.
Richard Janet.
Gerrit Janet. Now, that's a fairly common name. So there are, of our hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of listeners.
Gerrit Janet. Now, that's a fairly common name. So there are, of our hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of listeners.
Richard Name Janet.
Richard Name Janet.
Gerrit How many Janets? Look, we found out how many Bills there are when I casually said Bill was a fornicator.
Gerrit How many Janets? Look, we found out how many Bills there are when I casually said Bill was a fornicator.
Richard Adulterer, I believe.
Gerrit Adulterer. Not fornicator?
Richard Adulterer, I believe.
Gerrit Adulterer. Not fornicator?
Richard Well, I mean, that implies, but also adulterer seems worse. You made additional promises.
Richard Well, I mean, that implies, but also adulterer seems worse. You made additional promises.
Gerrit Bill, we need you to email us and let us know exactly how we slandered you.
Gerrit Bill, we need you to email us and let us know exactly how we slandered you.
Richard Here's the subject for that email, by the way. By the way, just at the very beginning, we love Janet. Janet is wonderful. A friend of ours? Yeah, yeah. And you, sir, are no Janet.
Richard Here's the subject for that email, by the way. By the way, just at the very beginning, we love Janet. Janet is wonderful. A friend of ours? Yeah, yeah. And you, sir, are no Janet.
Gerrit You know that you're on brand when your go-to joke is something from the 1992 vice presidential debate? Is that where we're at? Is that what it was?
Gerrit You know that you're on brand when your go-to joke is something from the 1992 vice presidential debate? Is that where we're at? Is that what it was?
Richard Yeah, that's right.
Richard Yeah, that's right.
Gerrit Okay, good. Yeah. Mr. Quail.
Gerrit Okay, good. Yeah. Mr. Quail.
Richard Richard, Richard, Richard, you are such a fine young man. That's the subject.
Richard Richard, Richard, Richard, you are such a fine young man. That's the subject.
Gerrit Well, that's a kind thing.
Gerrit Well, that's a kind thing.
Richard That is, it's-
Richard That is, it's-
Gerrit Do you think she's patting you on the head there?
Gerrit Do you think she's patting you on the head there?
Richard It's written with, yeah. It's written with a tongue.
Richard It's written with, yeah. It's written with a tongue.
Gerrit She wrote it in blood.
Gerrit She wrote it in blood.
Richard My dear Richard, I was on my walk this morning listening to the usual banter at the beginning. Let's face it, the first 15 minutes. It's very funny.
Richard My dear Richard, I was on my walk this morning listening to the usual banter at the beginning. Let's face it, the first 15 minutes. It's very funny.
Gerrit Boy, we just played right into... We just played right into her hands.
Gerrit Boy, we just played right into... We just played right into her hands.
Richard It's true. I lose for most of this, but I feel I'm going to win in the end.
Richard It's true. I lose for most of this, but I feel I'm going to win in the end.
Gerrit I don't think so.
Gerrit I don't think so.
Richard Of the latest used car salesman episode. So for those... So first of all, Janet's a premium subscriber. So obviously I'm going to be far kinder and more deferential as we appreciate that.
Richard Of the latest used car salesman episode. So for those... So first of all, Janet's a premium subscriber. So obviously I'm going to be far kinder and more deferential as we appreciate that.
Gerrit This is a really great episode. If you were thinking, when should I get the premium content? We talk about Johan Tetzel, the peddler of indulgences who's selling people millions of less years in purgatory.
Gerrit This is a really great episode. If you were thinking, when should I get the premium content? We talk about Johan Tetzel, the peddler of indulgences who's selling people millions of less years in purgatory.
Richard It's actually one of my favorites. Most of our premium episodes are garbage, but that one was so good.
Richard It's actually one of my favorites. Most of our premium episodes are garbage, but that one was so good.
Gerrit There are premium episodes that I'm embarrassed of. No, I'm just kidding. But it's about the beginning of the Reformation. And so it's a very important part. Right.
Gerrit There are premium episodes that I'm embarrassed of. No, I'm just kidding. But it's about the beginning of the Reformation. And so it's a very important part. Right.
Richard And I talk about how, I think the name of the episode is something like Johan Tetzel used car salesman or something along those lines.
Richard And I talk about how, I think the name of the episode is something like Johan Tetzel used car salesman or something along those lines.
Gerrit Johan Tetzel, you know, with a seersucker suit. And he's like, what's it going to take to get you into an indulgence? How would you like to get out of purgatory?
Gerrit Johan Tetzel, you know, with a seersucker suit. And he's like, what's it going to take to get you into an indulgence? How would you like to get out of purgatory?
Richard Yes. And so in that, Gerrit, I was here minding my own business, watching college football games, while Gerrit was talking about, you know, religious history things. And Gerrit pointed out a pet peeve that he said that I have when people call Area Authority Seventy, General Authority Seventy, right? And I wasn't planning to speak about that. I thought I had said all these things in confidence.
Richard Yes. And so in that, Gerrit, I was here minding my own business, watching college football games, while Gerrit was talking about, you know, religious history things. And Gerrit pointed out a pet peeve that he said that I have when people call Area Authority Seventy, General Authority Seventy, right? And I wasn't planning to speak about that. I thought I had said all these things in confidence.
Gerrit Right. Well, I broke confidence.
Gerrit Right. Well, I broke confidence.
Richard And so to be very clear.
Richard And so to be very clear.
Gerrit Now, Richard loves Area Seventies.
Gerrit Now, Richard loves Area Seventies.
Richard Of course. Of course, they're wonderful when they come and speak in state conference, they're great. They occasionally will come.
Richard Of course. Of course, they're wonderful when they come and speak in state conference, they're great. They occasionally will come.
Gerrit We don't have any Area Seventies listening. Of course, we don't. If we do, we're about to get a call from our state president.
Gerrit We don't have any Area Seventies listening. Of course, we don't. If we do, we're about to get a call from our state president.
Richard I mean, so yeah, Area Authority Seventies are wonderful. And when they speak in general conference, they're usually incredible speakers.
Richard I mean, so yeah, Area Authority Seventies are wonderful. And when they speak in general conference, they're usually incredible speakers.
Gerrit It's honestly been one of the greatest innovations in the church in my lifetime. The creation of the Area Authority Seventies.
Gerrit It's honestly been one of the greatest innovations in the church in my lifetime. The creation of the Area Authority Seventies.
Richard Right. So this happened in 1995. It's announced in April of 1995 by President Hinckley.
Richard Right. So this happened in 1995. It's announced in April of 1995 by President Hinckley.
Gerrit I remember. It's crazy. I mean, I remember literally President Hinckley talking and announcing it. And even as a teenager, it was exhilarating that we were going to have like, what? We're not going to have two quorums of the Seventy, but I was going to have like 90 quorums eventually.
Gerrit I remember. It's crazy. I mean, I remember literally President Hinckley talking and announcing it. And even as a teenager, it was exhilarating that we were going to have like, what? We're not going to have two quorums of the Seventy, but I was going to have like 90 quorums eventually.
Richard Well, we have 12 now.
Richard Well, we have 12 now.
Gerrit The idea was just can extend to...
Gerrit The idea was just can extend to...
Richard I totally got away from her email. I need to get back. I'm starting to be super defensive. I haven't even finished her point yet.
Richard I totally got away from her email. I need to get back. I'm starting to be super defensive. I haven't even finished her point yet.
Gerrit Yeah, you are very defensive of something we haven't even read yet. All right.
Gerrit Yeah, you are very defensive of something we haven't even read yet. All right.
Richard When the banter turned to what you were saying, you consider a general authority and an area authority. And I have to confess, I lost all focus on the real content because of the conversation I was having with you in my head. Now, I know Gerrit would like to keep the standard of truth as close to the truth as possible. Janet, you have no idea how wrong that statement is. So I'm going to put forth what I believe is a little truth, which is probably closer to the truth than your truth. Staying consistent with the confession mode, I am close to three quarters of a century old. If I know I shouldn't be confessing such things, but in this case I must. And my mother was born in 1916, which was a little while ago. So what I'm trying to get at is I probably have close to a doctorate in this information, but at the very least- Maybe a master's since I was there. And my parents go a bit further back. Now I don't know when the term General Authority began to be used or who it was that coined it, but I give you, in all caps, the challenge, Richard, not Gerrit, to research this and report back.
Richard When the banter turned to what you were saying, you consider a general authority and an area authority. And I have to confess, I lost all focus on the real content because of the conversation I was having with you in my head. Now, I know Gerrit would like to keep the standard of truth as close to the truth as possible. Janet, you have no idea how wrong that statement is. So I'm going to put forth what I believe is a little truth, which is probably closer to the truth than your truth. Staying consistent with the confession mode, I am close to three quarters of a century old. If I know I shouldn't be confessing such things, but in this case I must. And my mother was born in 1916, which was a little while ago. So what I'm trying to get at is I probably have close to a doctorate in this information, but at the very least- Maybe a master's since I was there. And my parents go a bit further back. Now I don't know when the term General Authority began to be used or who it was that coined it, but I give you, in all caps, the challenge, Richard, not Gerrit, to research this and report back.
Richard Now there is more here I will read in a second, but Gerrit did all the research on this, so-
Richard Now there is more here I will read in a second, but Gerrit did all the research on this, so-
Gerrit Well, you could have pretended that you did it.
Gerrit Well, you could have pretended that you did it.
Richard Yeah, but as that now we're leading with the truth here, I just wanted to let her know. I mean, if you want me to report back, I'm just going to make some stuff up, gobble it up.
Richard Yeah, but as that now we're leading with the truth here, I just wanted to let her know. I mean, if you want me to report back, I'm just going to make some stuff up, gobble it up.
Gerrit Okay, yeah, here we go.
Gerrit Okay, yeah, here we go.
Richard Yeah, right. At any rate, this is how General Authority was used long, long, long before you were born. Anyone above a stake president has always been referred to as a General Authority. Subcategories of General Authorities are Seventies, Area Authorities, current title, notice the capitalization here, and Apostles and Prophets. The Area Authorities used to be called Assistants to the Twelve, just a different title for these General Authorities. And before that, I'm not sure. I believe they just called brethren to help out the Twelve without setting them apart. After you report back from your research, she's giving me an assignment.
Richard Yeah, right. At any rate, this is how General Authority was used long, long, long before you were born. Anyone above a stake president has always been referred to as a General Authority. Subcategories of General Authorities are Seventies, Area Authorities, current title, notice the capitalization here, and Apostles and Prophets. The Area Authorities used to be called Assistants to the Twelve, just a different title for these General Authorities. And before that, I'm not sure. I believe they just called brethren to help out the Twelve without setting them apart. After you report back from your research, she's giving me an assignment.
Gerrit I like how she thinks you're gonna do this.
Gerrit I like how she thinks you're gonna do this.
Richard Well, and I did.
Richard Well, and I did.
Gerrit Wait, what part of it did you do?
Gerrit Wait, what part of it did you do?
Richard I drove to your house.
Richard I drove to your house.
Gerrit That's a long ways.
Gerrit That's a long ways.
Richard It is.
Gerrit The traffic's terrible now.
Richard It is.
Gerrit The traffic's terrible now.
Richard From late, oh yeah, it was Labor Day weekend. We'll all be better informed, but it better be true truth. Though I live in Utah, I didn't grow up here. When anyone came from state conference, it was a big deal. And I'm sure it still is for many folks outside of Utah, Idaho, yes, I know, and Arizona. Well, so first of all, Janet, as an aside, I, growing up in, you know, Nampa, Idaho.
Richard From late, oh yeah, it was Labor Day weekend. We'll all be better informed, but it better be true truth. Though I live in Utah, I didn't grow up here. When anyone came from state conference, it was a big deal. And I'm sure it still is for many folks outside of Utah, Idaho, yes, I know, and Arizona. Well, so first of all, Janet, as an aside, I, growing up in, you know, Nampa, Idaho.
Gerrit The rich side of Idaho.
Gerrit The rich side of Idaho.
Richard Well, at Nampa, Idaho, our stake was kind of between Nampa and CUNA, Idaho. That's where we were. And I did not, I don't remember seeing any sort of general authority until I was in high school. We had a General Authority Seventy, which was a General Authority.
Richard Well, at Nampa, Idaho, our stake was kind of between Nampa and CUNA, Idaho. That's where we were. And I did not, I don't remember seeing any sort of general authority until I was in high school. We had a General Authority Seventy, which was a General Authority.
Gerrit Oh, be careful.
Richard Which was a General Authority. Oh, he was great. He came.
Gerrit Oh, be careful.
Richard Which was a General Authority. Oh, he was great. He came.
Gerrit I'm just saying, are you sure he was a General Authority Seventy?
Gerrit I'm just saying, are you sure he was a General Authority Seventy?
Richard 100%, because this was pre-1995. So he came, he spoke. It was awesome. I was, I believe, 16 the first time I ever saw a General Authority speak. And it was, I mean, other than General Conference, which I will admit, as a young man, I regularly did not pay attention to as often or as much as I should. So it was a really big deal to be able to see a General Authority for the first time. I loved it. It was an incredible thing. All right, moving on. Chances are you probably still want to continue to say what is untrue. But I've got, I know. She's coming at me.
Richard 100%, because this was pre-1995. So he came, he spoke. It was awesome. I was, I believe, 16 the first time I ever saw a General Authority speak. And it was, I mean, other than General Conference, which I will admit, as a young man, I regularly did not pay attention to as often or as much as I should. So it was a really big deal to be able to see a General Authority for the first time. I loved it. It was an incredible thing. All right, moving on. Chances are you probably still want to continue to say what is untrue. But I've got, I know. She's coming at me.
Gerrit First of all, she knows you.
Gerrit First of all, she knows you.
Richard Yeah, I know.
Richard Yeah, I know.
Gerrit I know, I know. Yeah, exactly. Becky, is your pseudonym possibly Janet? Like, do you write under the name?
Gerrit I know, I know. Yeah, exactly. Becky, is your pseudonym possibly Janet? Like, do you write under the name?
Richard But I've got history as my credentials, so I believe my truth is more true than yours. Love you guys, keep me laughing and learning, but don't forget, Richard, I'm right. Cheers.
Richard But I've got history as my credentials, so I believe my truth is more true than yours. Love you guys, keep me laughing and learning, but don't forget, Richard, I'm right. Cheers.
Gerrit Wow, she came gunning for you.
Gerrit Wow, she came gunning for you.
Richard She did.
Gerrit You know what I like though? I like all of it, actually. I like the fact that like a hyena doesn't go after the strongest, you know, wildebeest in the path, you know? Like, we could go after- Well, that's what I'm saying.
Richard She did.
Gerrit You know what I like though? I like all of it, actually. I like the fact that like a hyena doesn't go after the strongest, you know, wildebeest in the path, you know? Like, we could go after- Well, that's what I'm saying.
Richard Is the weak sickly antelope that's like?
Richard Is the weak sickly antelope that's like?
Gerrit Yeah, like she could have like-
Gerrit Yeah, like she could have like-
Richard Sure, I've got gangrene in one leg. I went to a watering hole, got like the other leg bit off by a crocodile, spiritual crocodile.
Richard Sure, I've got gangrene in one leg. I went to a watering hole, got like the other leg bit off by a crocodile, spiritual crocodile.
Gerrit Yeah, we could do a whole one on Boonky Packer as well, but yeah.
Gerrit Yeah, we could do a whole one on Boonky Packer as well, but yeah.
Richard That's great.
Richard That's great.
Gerrit That was a great email.
Gerrit That was a great email.
Richard I'm the sickly antelope that she's going. Well, yeah, so here's the thing though, Janet.
Richard I'm the sickly antelope that she's going. Well, yeah, so here's the thing though, Janet.
Gerrit He will not yield.
Gerrit He will not yield.
Richard Well, so here's the thing is that there was a significant change that, you know, we talked about, you know, a little bit as I interrupted your email. In 1995, when President Hinckley makes the change and announces Area Authority Seventy and that General Authorities are the first and second quorum of the Seventy and that at the time, the third, fourth and fifth quorum of the Seventy were Area Seventy that lived in a particular geographical location and then served in that general area. We're now up to 12 areas, 70 quorums, or 12 quorums of the Seventy, but with the first two as General Authorities. And so the reason that I talked about it is there is actually a pretty significant difference in the responsibility between an Area Seventy and a General Authority Seventy. So, not to take anything away from any Area Authority ever.
Richard Well, so here's the thing is that there was a significant change that, you know, we talked about, you know, a little bit as I interrupted your email. In 1995, when President Hinckley makes the change and announces Area Authority Seventy and that General Authorities are the first and second quorum of the Seventy and that at the time, the third, fourth and fifth quorum of the Seventy were Area Seventy that lived in a particular geographical location and then served in that general area. We're now up to 12 areas, 70 quorums, or 12 quorums of the Seventy, but with the first two as General Authorities. And so the reason that I talked about it is there is actually a pretty significant difference in the responsibility between an Area Seventy and a General Authority Seventy. So, not to take anything away from any Area Authority ever.
Gerrit I feel like this entire podcast has been bad mouthing Area Authority Seven. That's how Janet took it.
Gerrit I feel like this entire podcast has been bad mouthing Area Authority Seven. That's how Janet took it.
Richard That is not it at all. So...
Richard That is not it at all. So...
Gerrit Well, let me just speak to what Janet talked about in part of her email on the assistance to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. So this is something that is in the 20th century, there are several men called, beginning in 1941, to be special assistants to the Twelve, and they do actually have general authority power. And they are often assigned certain geographic roles. Now they're not called Seventy, they're called assistants to the Twelve. And there are some pretty big names that are assistants to the Twelve. Among them, President Hinckley. Well, he wasn't President Hinckley at the time, but...
Gerrit Well, let me just speak to what Janet talked about in part of her email on the assistance to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. So this is something that is in the 20th century, there are several men called, beginning in 1941, to be special assistants to the Twelve, and they do actually have general authority power. And they are often assigned certain geographic roles. Now they're not called Seventy, they're called assistants to the Twelve. And there are some pretty big names that are assistants to the Twelve. Among them, President Hinckley. Well, he wasn't President Hinckley at the time, but...
Richard You know, I expect good things from you, young man.
Richard You know, I expect good things from you, young man.
Gerrit Yeah, exactly. Boyd K. Packer, who've already been noted, David B. Haight, James E. Fowles, Neal A. Maxwell. It seems like this was an okay position to hold. They are going to last from 1941 until General Conference of 1976. And in 1976, President Kimball is going to explain essentially that some of the functions of the Seventy, the first quorum of the Seventy, some of those functions were essentially being replicated by these assistants to the Twelve, because they both had General Authority power. And that he folds them back in to, well, he eliminates the office essentially and makes them General Authority Seventies. Since the functions and responsibilities, this is from the conference, since the functions and responsibilities of the assistants to the Twelve and the Seventy are similar, and since the accelerated worldwide growth of the church requires a consolidation of its administrative functions at the general level, the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve with the concurrence of the assistants to the Twelve, so hey, don't worry, we talk to these guys, which is funny.
Gerrit Yeah, exactly. Boyd K. Packer, who've already been noted, David B. Haight, James E. Fowles, Neal A. Maxwell. It seems like this was an okay position to hold. They are going to last from 1941 until General Conference of 1976. And in 1976, President Kimball is going to explain essentially that some of the functions of the Seventy, the first quorum of the Seventy, some of those functions were essentially being replicated by these assistants to the Twelve, because they both had General Authority power. And that he folds them back in to, well, he eliminates the office essentially and makes them General Authority Seventies. Since the functions and responsibilities, this is from the conference, since the functions and responsibilities of the assistants to the Twelve and the Seventy are similar, and since the accelerated worldwide growth of the church requires a consolidation of its administrative functions at the general level, the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve with the concurrence of the assistants to the Twelve, so hey, don't worry, we talk to these guys, which is funny.
Gerrit You remember when President Uchtdorf just became Elder Uchtdorf again? Just, just one of the members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. How many people were so upset because he had been President Uchtdorf? Because they saw serving in the First Presidency like serving up the ladder in a local fast food chain. Like you can't go from being the Assistant Manager to being the Assistant Deputy Manager.
Gerrit You remember when President Uchtdorf just became Elder Uchtdorf again? Just, just one of the members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. How many people were so upset because he had been President Uchtdorf? Because they saw serving in the First Presidency like serving up the ladder in a local fast food chain. Like you can't go from being the Assistant Manager to being the Assistant Deputy Manager.
Richard So the issue though is with President Hinckley and President Monson serving in their roles as long as they did, it had been years and years and years of that.
Richard So the issue though is with President Hinckley and President Monson serving in their roles as long as they did, it had been years and years and years of that.
Gerrit So their lived religious experience was anyone who's in the First Presidency, not only is in the First Presidency forever, but they actually are often the ones on the day-to-day level running things in the church because the prophet is sick or, you know, with both President Kimball and President Benson and then even with President Hunter. There was considerable illness that made them, you know, even appearing in General Conference difficult. And so in many ways, our view of the First Presidency is much more enhanced because of our experience. Now, look, they still are the First Presidency, hold the keys, right? But in Joseph Smith's time, the First Presidency was a very different office. And it was a different office in part because everyone serving in the First Presidency were actually not members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.
Gerrit So their lived religious experience was anyone who's in the First Presidency, not only is in the First Presidency forever, but they actually are often the ones on the day-to-day level running things in the church because the prophet is sick or, you know, with both President Kimball and President Benson and then even with President Hunter. There was considerable illness that made them, you know, even appearing in General Conference difficult. And so in many ways, our view of the First Presidency is much more enhanced because of our experience. Now, look, they still are the First Presidency, hold the keys, right? But in Joseph Smith's time, the First Presidency was a very different office. And it was a different office in part because everyone serving in the First Presidency were actually not members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.
Gerrit Sidney Rigdon was not a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. John C. Bennett, thank goodness that I can say the words, John C. Bennett was not an apostle. Those are some of the most important words anyone's ever said. William Waugh is not a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Now, over the course of time, the First Presidency will always be drawn from the Quorum of the Twelve. And so those things shift and change over time. So, I mean, in Janet's email where she says, you know, there used to be assistants to the Twelve and they had General Authority power. Well, you're right. If an assistant to the Twelve showed up at your ward, wherever you're from, you said you're not from Utah, then yeah, that would have been a gigantic deal. It would have been someone with General Authority power coming to speak to the church. And so maybe I thought, maybe trace a little bit where this terminology comes from. Now, look, I am not a language expert.
Gerrit Sidney Rigdon was not a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. John C. Bennett, thank goodness that I can say the words, John C. Bennett was not an apostle. Those are some of the most important words anyone's ever said. William Waugh is not a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Now, over the course of time, the First Presidency will always be drawn from the Quorum of the Twelve. And so those things shift and change over time. So, I mean, in Janet's email where she says, you know, there used to be assistants to the Twelve and they had General Authority power. Well, you're right. If an assistant to the Twelve showed up at your ward, wherever you're from, you said you're not from Utah, then yeah, that would have been a gigantic deal. It would have been someone with General Authority power coming to speak to the church. And so maybe I thought, maybe trace a little bit where this terminology comes from. Now, look, I am not a language expert.
Gerrit For those of you listening to the podcast, you're well aware I'm not even very good at speaking English, period. Now, on the bright side, when I do make a mistake, we stop the recording, we cut it out, and then whenever Richard makes a mistake, we leave it in. Because the aforementioned gangrenous antelope.
Gerrit For those of you listening to the podcast, you're well aware I'm not even very good at speaking English, period. Now, on the bright side, when I do make a mistake, we stop the recording, we cut it out, and then whenever Richard makes a mistake, we leave it in. Because the aforementioned gangrenous antelope.
Richard I love the visual of that. Just limping along, waiting for death.
Richard I love the visual of that. Just limping along, waiting for death.
Gerrit No eyes, you're blind, one horn's crooked. The hyenas are looking for something easy.
Gerrit No eyes, you're blind, one horn's crooked. The hyenas are looking for something easy.
Richard They attack me, misspeaking on area authorities, which again, I didn't.
Richard They attack me, misspeaking on area authorities, which again, I didn't.
Gerrit Well, you and Jennifer have to meet a high dude. So the interesting thing is, of course, this is a terminology, general authority, meaning what it does. It kind of develops over time. Now you want to know when is it first used? What's really interesting is section 102 is going to be an important section for all of the councils of the church. But it's especially important because it outlines the functions, duties, and powers of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles when they are first called. Now, if you recall back many, many, many, so many podcasts ago, back when the world was new, when Richard's gangrenous hoof was not yet ready to take the rest of his leg, we did a podcast where we talked about when the Quorum of the Twelve was actually first created. And it's not until February of 1835 that the Quorum of the Twelve was called. Well, when they are initially called, they are called and given a type of, now, like no one's using the word General Authority yet, but they're given a type of power that is almost General Authority.
Gerrit Well, you and Jennifer have to meet a high dude. So the interesting thing is, of course, this is a terminology, general authority, meaning what it does. It kind of develops over time. Now you want to know when is it first used? What's really interesting is section 102 is going to be an important section for all of the councils of the church. But it's especially important because it outlines the functions, duties, and powers of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles when they are first called. Now, if you recall back many, many, many, so many podcasts ago, back when the world was new, when Richard's gangrenous hoof was not yet ready to take the rest of his leg, we did a podcast where we talked about when the Quorum of the Twelve was actually first created. And it's not until February of 1835 that the Quorum of the Twelve was called. Well, when they are initially called, they are called and given a type of, now, like no one's using the word General Authority yet, but they're given a type of power that is almost General Authority.
Gerrit They're given this power where they have the ability to settle doctrine, to call people, to settle disputes. They represent the Church everywhere outside of the seat of government of the Church, meaning the Quorum of the Twelve, when they were initially called, didn't really have ecclesiastical power in Kirtland, but they did have it everywhere else. So if you're in a branch in Michigan, the Quorum of the Twelve, they are going to be the ones who settle the questions that you have. Now, in fact, if you turn to Doctrine and Covenants, Section 102, and drop down to verses 30 through 32, these are verses that are not part of the original minutes. So D&C 102 are the minutes of a church council that are canonized and they are published in the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants.
Gerrit They're given this power where they have the ability to settle doctrine, to call people, to settle disputes. They represent the Church everywhere outside of the seat of government of the Church, meaning the Quorum of the Twelve, when they were initially called, didn't really have ecclesiastical power in Kirtland, but they did have it everywhere else. So if you're in a branch in Michigan, the Quorum of the Twelve, they are going to be the ones who settle the questions that you have. Now, in fact, if you turn to Doctrine and Covenants, Section 102, and drop down to verses 30 through 32, these are verses that are not part of the original minutes. So D&C 102 are the minutes of a church council that are canonized and they are published in the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants.
Gerrit But this meeting was held in 1834, before the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles was called. And so you have this whole thing explaining some of the, especially some of the appellate abilities of people being able to appeal councils when they've been brought into council for some kind of sin. In fact, maybe we'll just read a little bit of this. The high priests when abroad have power to call and organize a council. This is verse 24 of Section 102. The high priests when abroad have a power to call and organize a council after the manner of the foregoing to settle difficulties when the parties of either of them shall request it. And the said council of high priests shall have power to appoint one of their own number to preside over such a council for the time being. It shall be the duty of said council to transmit immediately a copy of their proceedings with a full statement of the testimony accompanying their decision to the high council of the seat of the First Presidency of the church.
Gerrit But this meeting was held in 1834, before the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles was called. And so you have this whole thing explaining some of the, especially some of the appellate abilities of people being able to appeal councils when they've been brought into council for some kind of sin. In fact, maybe we'll just read a little bit of this. The high priests when abroad have power to call and organize a council. This is verse 24 of Section 102. The high priests when abroad have a power to call and organize a council after the manner of the foregoing to settle difficulties when the parties of either of them shall request it. And the said council of high priests shall have power to appoint one of their own number to preside over such a council for the time being. It shall be the duty of said council to transmit immediately a copy of their proceedings with a full statement of the testimony accompanying their decision to the high council of the seat of the First Presidency of the church.
Gerrit So now notice again, there's a standing high council in the early church that is set up to be wherever the First Presidency is, or the seat of government of the church as it's referred to. Okay, so you have, you know, a bunch of missionaries that are preaching in New York, and there's someone in New York who says, hey, you know, Bill slandered me and said that I was a gangrenous antelope with hyenas chasing after me. And they call essentially an ad hoc council to try to settle the affair. They are not a traveling council. It's essentially a council called together of people who have the high priesthood who can then determine what's going on here. But their decision is then sent back to the standing high council at the seat of government of the church.
Gerrit So now notice again, there's a standing high council in the early church that is set up to be wherever the First Presidency is, or the seat of government of the church as it's referred to. Okay, so you have, you know, a bunch of missionaries that are preaching in New York, and there's someone in New York who says, hey, you know, Bill slandered me and said that I was a gangrenous antelope with hyenas chasing after me. And they call essentially an ad hoc council to try to settle the affair. They are not a traveling council. It's essentially a council called together of people who have the high priesthood who can then determine what's going on here. But their decision is then sent back to the standing high council at the seat of government of the church.
Gerrit So we're in Michigan, someone's claiming someone's a gangrenous antelope. You know, someone else is claiming that the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo didn't really matter that much in American history. Someone else is claiming that rice tariffs are uninteresting. And the disputes got to be settled. And they make their dispute. You know what? Bill is wrong about this. In addition to being an adulterer, Bill also is a slanderer. And then they send their decision with all of the testimony. They send it to the church headquarters so that the church headquarters have that. Should the parties of either of them be dissatisfied with the decision of said council, they may appeal to the High Council of the seat of the first presence of the church and have a rehearing. Which case shall there be conducted according to the former pattern written as though no decision had been made. So in the early church court system, what's set up in this 1834 minutes is an appellate system where if you have a dispute over some milk strippings, that it can go further up the line.
Gerrit So we're in Michigan, someone's claiming someone's a gangrenous antelope. You know, someone else is claiming that the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo didn't really matter that much in American history. Someone else is claiming that rice tariffs are uninteresting. And the disputes got to be settled. And they make their dispute. You know what? Bill is wrong about this. In addition to being an adulterer, Bill also is a slanderer. And then they send their decision with all of the testimony. They send it to the church headquarters so that the church headquarters have that. Should the parties of either of them be dissatisfied with the decision of said council, they may appeal to the High Council of the seat of the first presence of the church and have a rehearing. Which case shall there be conducted according to the former pattern written as though no decision had been made. So in the early church court system, what's set up in this 1834 minutes is an appellate system where if you have a dispute over some milk strippings, that it can go further up the line.
Gerrit That's another podcast.
Gerrit That's another podcast.
Richard That's Apostles and Apostates Part Two.
Richard That's Apostles and Apostates Part Two.
Gerrit And Apothecaries.
Gerrit And Apothecaries.
Richard Apostles, Apostates and Apothecaries Part Two.
Richard Apostles, Apostates and Apothecaries Part Two.
Gerrit I had a good friend say to me, hey, I think I know the other A word you were looking for.
Gerrit I had a good friend say to me, hey, I think I know the other A word you were looking for.
Richard It was apothecary.
Richard It was apothecary.
Gerrit Apothecary, that's what I said. Obviously, it's some kind of a pharmacist. They could appeal and have a rehearing as if there wasn't even a subtle thing. So it was completely redone case. Incidentally, this is a practice that is followed well into the 20th century in Utah. The Salt Lake Stake, which is the high council of the seat of government of the church, the high council of the first where the First Presidency is, had appellate jurisdictional authority over other high councils in the church. Isn't that an interesting thing? Well, at any rate, this was 1834, and you've got your standing high council. And then you have these kind of ad hoc councils of elders when they're abroad. Basically, this kind of thing. Like, what do you do when there's a problem with the church somewhere that's outside of Kirtland?
Gerrit Apothecary, that's what I said. Obviously, it's some kind of a pharmacist. They could appeal and have a rehearing as if there wasn't even a subtle thing. So it was completely redone case. Incidentally, this is a practice that is followed well into the 20th century in Utah. The Salt Lake Stake, which is the high council of the seat of government of the church, the high council of the first where the First Presidency is, had appellate jurisdictional authority over other high councils in the church. Isn't that an interesting thing? Well, at any rate, this was 1834, and you've got your standing high council. And then you have these kind of ad hoc councils of elders when they're abroad. Basically, this kind of thing. Like, what do you do when there's a problem with the church somewhere that's outside of Kirtland?
Gerrit And then the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles is called in February of 1835. So before D&C 102 is published in the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants, so it's published later that year, Joseph Smith makes amendations to this revelation. It's really the minutes of a meeting that is revealed. And he adds these verses. If you go to, well, let me finish reading the part. This is not the added part. Verse 28. The Council of High Priests Abroad is only to be called on the most difficult cases of church matters, and no common or ordinary case is to be sufficient to call such a council. Again, slandering someone probably isn't, right? Someone claiming that they are the real prophet, maybe that is kind of a big deal. The traveling or located High Priests Abroad have power to say whether it's necessary to call a council or not. So one of the things written in there is, look, Bill saying that John stole his hammer is not enough for us to call a traveling High Priests Abroad council.
Gerrit And then the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles is called in February of 1835. So before D&C 102 is published in the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants, so it's published later that year, Joseph Smith makes amendations to this revelation. It's really the minutes of a meeting that is revealed. And he adds these verses. If you go to, well, let me finish reading the part. This is not the added part. Verse 28. The Council of High Priests Abroad is only to be called on the most difficult cases of church matters, and no common or ordinary case is to be sufficient to call such a council. Again, slandering someone probably isn't, right? Someone claiming that they are the real prophet, maybe that is kind of a big deal. The traveling or located High Priests Abroad have power to say whether it's necessary to call a council or not. So one of the things written in there is, look, Bill saying that John stole his hammer is not enough for us to call a traveling High Priests Abroad council.
Gerrit So the verses that are added are verse 30 through 32, because the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles are essentially a permanent traveling High Council with this kind of General Authority. And this is what's added. There is a distinction between the High Council or the traveling High Priests Abroad and the traveling High Council composed of the Twelve Apostles in their decisions. From the decision of the former, there can be an appeal. But from the decision of the latter, there cannot. So you notice a very big difference. If it's just a bunch of High Priests in Michigan that hear my case and I think it was judged wrongly, I can appeal that decision. But the Quorum of the Twelve are a much higher council. They're not an ad hoc council. They aren't just people like, Hey, Jim, you're a High Priest, right?
Gerrit So the verses that are added are verse 30 through 32, because the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles are essentially a permanent traveling High Council with this kind of General Authority. And this is what's added. There is a distinction between the High Council or the traveling High Priests Abroad and the traveling High Council composed of the Twelve Apostles in their decisions. From the decision of the former, there can be an appeal. But from the decision of the latter, there cannot. So you notice a very big difference. If it's just a bunch of High Priests in Michigan that hear my case and I think it was judged wrongly, I can appeal that decision. But the Quorum of the Twelve are a much higher council. They're not an ad hoc council. They aren't just people like, Hey, Jim, you're a High Priest, right?
Gerrit Can you come serve on this? There's not that. You know, incidentally, people who will be brought in as additional members to High Councils when they can't form a full High Council even now.
Gerrit Can you come serve on this? There's not that. You know, incidentally, people who will be brought in as additional members to High Councils when they can't form a full High Council even now.
Richard I've served in some councils where that was the case. They didn't have their full High Council.
Richard I've served in some councils where that was the case. They didn't have their full High Council.
Gerrit Can you explain that? Don't tell us what happened or where it happened or what's going on. But just as an explanation, how is it that as not a member of the High Council, you were serving in that role?
Gerrit Can you explain that? Don't tell us what happened or where it happened or what's going on. But just as an explanation, how is it that as not a member of the High Council, you were serving in that role?
Richard Right. So I, having served in a Bishopric was a High Priest.
Richard Right. So I, having served in a Bishopric was a High Priest.
Gerrit Janet, this is going to be pretty disappointing to you that Richard's been in a Bishopric several times.
Gerrit Janet, this is going to be pretty disappointing to you that Richard's been in a Bishopric several times.
Richard Well, I may have said this already on the podcast. If not, this is my favorite quote of anything I've ever heard in my life. We were living in Clearfield, Utah. We had just moved to Utah. And the Patriarch for the Clearfield stake was speaking in state conference. And he said, you know, sometimes people ask me, you know, how could I serve in leadership? How could I serve as a Bishop or something like that? And first of all, who in the world is signing up for that? Like, look, if you're called, you do it, but who is signing up for it? Anyway, so he said, you know, I often tell people, if you want to serve in leadership, the key is to move to a place without a lot of talent. And that's the funniest thing I think I've ever heard.
Richard Well, I may have said this already on the podcast. If not, this is my favorite quote of anything I've ever heard in my life. We were living in Clearfield, Utah. We had just moved to Utah. And the Patriarch for the Clearfield stake was speaking in state conference. And he said, you know, sometimes people ask me, you know, how could I serve in leadership? How could I serve as a Bishop or something like that? And first of all, who in the world is signing up for that? Like, look, if you're called, you do it, but who is signing up for it? Anyway, so he said, you know, I often tell people, if you want to serve in leadership, the key is to move to a place without a lot of talent. And that's the funniest thing I think I've ever heard.
Gerrit And you followed those instructions.
Gerrit And you followed those instructions.
Richard I followed those instructions, and that's how I served in the Bishopric. So anyway, as having been a high priest, they had, at the time it was still called the Disciplinary Council, and the stake president reached out to me and gave me a call and said, hey, we're doing this Disciplinary Council, and we're only going to have 10 members of the High Council that will be there, and we'd like for you to come and serve on the High Council as a high priest that serves in that capacity. So I wasn't on the High Council, but sat in in that position.
Richard I followed those instructions, and that's how I served in the Bishopric. So anyway, as having been a high priest, they had, at the time it was still called the Disciplinary Council, and the stake president reached out to me and gave me a call and said, hey, we're doing this Disciplinary Council, and we're only going to have 10 members of the High Council that will be there, and we'd like for you to come and serve on the High Council as a high priest that serves in that capacity. So I wasn't on the High Council, but sat in in that position.
Gerrit Essentially as an ad hoc member, as if you were a member of the High Council, right? But not actually a member of the High Council.
Gerrit Essentially as an ad hoc member, as if you were a member of the High Council, right? But not actually a member of the High Council.
Richard No, no, certainly not.
Richard No, no, certainly not.
Gerrit He could be a member of the Bishopric, but a member of the High Council, he can not. The reason why I bring this up is not only is it important to talk about where the Apostles' authority begins, and of course, Joseph's going to keep giving them more and more and more authority until, as we learned on the final charge, you know, so- We're kind of working backwards.
Gerrit He could be a member of the Bishopric, but a member of the High Council, he can not. The reason why I bring this up is not only is it important to talk about where the Apostles' authority begins, and of course, Joseph's going to keep giving them more and more and more authority until, as we learned on the final charge, you know, so- We're kind of working backwards.
Richard Final charge and now we're-
Richard Final charge and now we're-
Gerrit Yeah, yeah, we're going to start with- The first charge. We're going to start with, you know, President Nelson, and then we're going to work our way back to, like, what's- we might eventually get to Joseph Smith. Again, verse 32, the latter can only be called into question by the general authorities of the church in case of transgression. So notice that. So one of the interesting things, the first time it's mentioned in Scripture, that term general authority is surrounding this higher power, actually, that the latter. So a decision made by the apostles can only be called into question by the general authorities of the church in the case of transgression. So now, even though it says that, it is not a regular thing for that term to be used in the church. So even though you have this in an 1835 document, it still is a relatively rare usage.
Gerrit Yeah, yeah, we're going to start with- The first charge. We're going to start with, you know, President Nelson, and then we're going to work our way back to, like, what's- we might eventually get to Joseph Smith. Again, verse 32, the latter can only be called into question by the general authorities of the church in case of transgression. So notice that. So one of the interesting things, the first time it's mentioned in Scripture, that term general authority is surrounding this higher power, actually, that the latter. So a decision made by the apostles can only be called into question by the general authorities of the church in the case of transgression. So now, even though it says that, it is not a regular thing for that term to be used in the church. So even though you have this in an 1835 document, it still is a relatively rare usage.
Gerrit In 1838, you have a conference that is held in Far West, and it's going to use this same type of phraseology. And this is a conference from April 7th of 1838. Agreeable to a resolution of the High Council assembled at Far West on Saturday, the third of March 1838, the General Authorities of the Church met to hold the first quarterly conference of the Church of the Latter-day Saints. Remember, that was before we had our name change. And it lists off President Joseph Smith Jr. Sidney Reagan, Thomas B. Marsh, David W. Patton, and Brigham Young took the stand, after which the several quorums, the High Council, the High Priest, the Seventies, and the elders. So you get this terminology, but you don't get this very great definition of it. Why does that matter? Because we use it, I mean, exclusively. I mean, it is not hard to know what we mean when we say the word General Authority in the Church today.
Gerrit In 1838, you have a conference that is held in Far West, and it's going to use this same type of phraseology. And this is a conference from April 7th of 1838. Agreeable to a resolution of the High Council assembled at Far West on Saturday, the third of March 1838, the General Authorities of the Church met to hold the first quarterly conference of the Church of the Latter-day Saints. Remember, that was before we had our name change. And it lists off President Joseph Smith Jr. Sidney Reagan, Thomas B. Marsh, David W. Patton, and Brigham Young took the stand, after which the several quorums, the High Council, the High Priest, the Seventies, and the elders. So you get this terminology, but you don't get this very great definition of it. Why does that matter? Because we use it, I mean, exclusively. I mean, it is not hard to know what we mean when we say the word General Authority in the Church today.
Gerrit It's very well spelled out. But in the early Church, that terminology is not used as readily. Let me give you an example from 1856. Franklin D. Richards is talking about a conference that they hold in England. It's in Birmingham, England. And he's using this phraseology that today would seem a little bit out of place. He says, before leaving England on the 26th of July, and this is 1856 that he's giving this. Before leaving England on the 26th of July, I had the pleasure of welcoming brothers Pratt and Benson to that interesting and important field of labor. We had a joyful conference at Birmingham and a council of the general authorities of the church in those countries. Those brethren expressed themselves very satisfactorily and cheeringly as to the condition in which they received the work at our hands.
Gerrit It's very well spelled out. But in the early Church, that terminology is not used as readily. Let me give you an example from 1856. Franklin D. Richards is talking about a conference that they hold in England. It's in Birmingham, England. And he's using this phraseology that today would seem a little bit out of place. He says, before leaving England on the 26th of July, and this is 1856 that he's giving this. Before leaving England on the 26th of July, I had the pleasure of welcoming brothers Pratt and Benson to that interesting and important field of labor. We had a joyful conference at Birmingham and a council of the general authorities of the church in those countries. Those brethren expressed themselves very satisfactorily and cheeringly as to the condition in which they received the work at our hands.
Gerrit Here, you'll notice he's using general in the exact opposite way to meaning common. The common authorities, not authority that is everywhere, general meaning that it's authority that goes everywhere, but rather the more common church authorities is the way that he is using that, or at least appears to be using that in this instance. There is, it seems like a rash to snow is one of the people that really kind of pushes this to be more of the nomenclature for it to be a general authority to mean something. Talking about the leadership of the church, what he's talking about is that people shouldn't show up in Utah expecting the leaders of the church to just feed them all the time, that they need to bring food and also grow crops and stuff. And he says, they look to the fathers of their ward, for Brother Brigham having set the example so many times, for he says, I'm not going to continue to do it.
Gerrit Here, you'll notice he's using general in the exact opposite way to meaning common. The common authorities, not authority that is everywhere, general meaning that it's authority that goes everywhere, but rather the more common church authorities is the way that he is using that, or at least appears to be using that in this instance. There is, it seems like a rash to snow is one of the people that really kind of pushes this to be more of the nomenclature for it to be a general authority to mean something. Talking about the leadership of the church, what he's talking about is that people shouldn't show up in Utah expecting the leaders of the church to just feed them all the time, that they need to bring food and also grow crops and stuff. And he says, they look to the fathers of their ward, for Brother Brigham having set the example so many times, for he says, I'm not going to continue to do it.
Gerrit They may pick up the responsibility on the bishop to take a little oversight of their wards without throwing it on Brother Brigham and the general authorities of this church. That is to say, they need not to expect the general authorities of this church to bear this people in their bosoms and exercise all thought for them for that portion that don't think for themselves. There he seems to be, you know, combining it with Brigham Young. He seems to be talking about the general leadership of the church, right? Not just a local bishop in Birmingham, England, right? So you can see that's only two years later. That's 1838 that you're getting that. Even more directly, a few years later, it's again, Erastus Snow in 1879, who is going to describe this terminology, General Authority, in a pretty familiar way, again, in general conference. He is going to say, and for the same, I'm obviously taking part of this, and for the same reason, those who officiate in the more extended spheres, such as presidents of stakes, high counselors, and all stake authorities are put before the people in their several stakes in conference assembled for their approval, their confidence and support.
Gerrit They may pick up the responsibility on the bishop to take a little oversight of their wards without throwing it on Brother Brigham and the general authorities of this church. That is to say, they need not to expect the general authorities of this church to bear this people in their bosoms and exercise all thought for them for that portion that don't think for themselves. There he seems to be, you know, combining it with Brigham Young. He seems to be talking about the general leadership of the church, right? Not just a local bishop in Birmingham, England, right? So you can see that's only two years later. That's 1838 that you're getting that. Even more directly, a few years later, it's again, Erastus Snow in 1879, who is going to describe this terminology, General Authority, in a pretty familiar way, again, in general conference. He is going to say, and for the same, I'm obviously taking part of this, and for the same reason, those who officiate in the more extended spheres, such as presidents of stakes, high counselors, and all stake authorities are put before the people in their several stakes in conference assembled for their approval, their confidence and support.
Gerrit Otherwise, their appointment has not the same force and effect upon the people. In like manner, those who may be selected by the working of the Holy Spirit through the proper authorities to preside over quorums are nominated for this calling and are submitted to the members for their sanction and confidence. And then come the general authorities, who preside over and minister in the affairs of the Church in all the earth. These general quorums are not local and are not limited to any particular stake or quorum. Their business is to see that the Gospel is preached to the whole world to impart counsel by the Spirit of Revelation according to the spirit of their apostleship and calling and special witnesses and messengers to the world of mankind. These are the First Presidency and the twelve apostles and the seventies whose calling and duty it is to labor into the direction of the twelve and to bear the Gospel to all nations and to regulate the affairs of the Church in all the world.
Gerrit Otherwise, their appointment has not the same force and effect upon the people. In like manner, those who may be selected by the working of the Holy Spirit through the proper authorities to preside over quorums are nominated for this calling and are submitted to the members for their sanction and confidence. And then come the general authorities, who preside over and minister in the affairs of the Church in all the earth. These general quorums are not local and are not limited to any particular stake or quorum. Their business is to see that the Gospel is preached to the whole world to impart counsel by the Spirit of Revelation according to the spirit of their apostleship and calling and special witnesses and messengers to the world of mankind. These are the First Presidency and the twelve apostles and the seventies whose calling and duty it is to labor into the direction of the twelve and to bear the Gospel to all nations and to regulate the affairs of the Church in all the world.
Gerrit These general authorities are therefore brought before the General Conference assembled for their approval and for them to uphold and sustain by their faith and prayers in a like manner they are presented at the several state conferences. That's 1879. It's a pretty good explanation, isn't it, where he explains there are local authorities. Those local authorities are called by general Church authorities, but what makes someone a general authority is they preside over and minister in the affairs of the Church in all the earth. They are not local. They are not limited to any particular stake or quorum. I think that's... I mean, you can use that definition today almost.
Gerrit These general authorities are therefore brought before the General Conference assembled for their approval and for them to uphold and sustain by their faith and prayers in a like manner they are presented at the several state conferences. That's 1879. It's a pretty good explanation, isn't it, where he explains there are local authorities. Those local authorities are called by general Church authorities, but what makes someone a general authority is they preside over and minister in the affairs of the Church in all the earth. They are not local. They are not limited to any particular stake or quorum. I think that's... I mean, you can use that definition today almost.
Richard You can. So like as an example, a bishop has a geographical area, a stake president has a geographical area, and an area authority has a geographical area where a general authority might be called to reorganize a stake in Texas or reorganize a stake in Canada or...
Richard You can. So like as an example, a bishop has a geographical area, a stake president has a geographical area, and an area authority has a geographical area where a general authority might be called to reorganize a stake in Texas or reorganize a stake in Canada or...
Gerrit Right, but an area authority Seventy is never going to be called outside of his area to reorganize a stake in a different area.
Gerrit Right, but an area authority Seventy is never going to be called outside of his area to reorganize a stake in a different area.
Richard That's right. But they would be called to reorganize a stake in their area.
Richard That's right. But they would be called to reorganize a stake in their area.
Gerrit Right.
Richard Because they still are a Seventy.
Gerrit Right.
Richard Because they still are a Seventy.
Gerrit They're a Seventy over that particular area. Now, I think one of the reasons why this becomes a little bit confusing is in addition to General Authority Seventy, you're probably thinking, we're 40 minutes in. Confusing was 35 minutes ago. Confusing was the gangrenous antelope.
Gerrit They're a Seventy over that particular area. Now, I think one of the reasons why this becomes a little bit confusing is in addition to General Authority Seventy, you're probably thinking, we're 40 minutes in. Confusing was 35 minutes ago. Confusing was the gangrenous antelope.
Richard Well, that was the only thing you said that made any sense.
Richard Well, that was the only thing you said that made any sense.
Gerrit Well, that Janet saw weakness.
Gerrit Well, that Janet saw weakness.
Richard Yeah, she passed.
Gerrit The one thing we know about Janet is if she sees weakness, she, I mean, you do not want to play a game of poker with her. No. No, she'll see that you're bluffing. She goes all in. We don't know anything about gambling.
Richard Yeah, she passed.
Gerrit The one thing we know about Janet is if she sees weakness, she, I mean, you do not want to play a game of poker with her. No. No, she'll see that you're bluffing. She goes all in. We don't know anything about gambling.
Richard No, but she'll get you on the flop.
Richard No, but she'll get you on the flop.
Gerrit Yeah, she'll get you. Well, she'll probably get you on the river, actually. She'll wait. Yeah, she'll wait to get you on the river. But there's also, of course, in the church now, area presidencies. So you have General Authority Seventy, and you also have Area Authority Seventy. But then you also have Area Presidencies, which are over a much larger geographic area. And they include both General Authority Seventies and also Area Seventies. So you could have someone from your Area Presidency come to speak to you, and they may or may not be a General Authority, have General Authority power, even though they have all kinds of power in your area.
Gerrit Yeah, she'll get you. Well, she'll probably get you on the river, actually. She'll wait. Yeah, she'll wait to get you on the river. But there's also, of course, in the church now, area presidencies. So you have General Authority Seventy, and you also have Area Authority Seventy. But then you also have Area Presidencies, which are over a much larger geographic area. And they include both General Authority Seventies and also Area Seventies. So you could have someone from your Area Presidency come to speak to you, and they may or may not be a General Authority, have General Authority power, even though they have all kinds of power in your area.
Richard One of the beautiful things about this, so there's a great article from elder... Elder Earl C. Tingey, about Area Authority Seventies. This was in the formerly Enzyme, currently Liahona, October 2002, where he talks about this, talks about how in Doctrine and Covenants, Section 107, how the Lord lays the groundwork for as the church grows and as it fills the whole earth, that this body of Seventy is structured in such a way to allow for it to grow. The number of areas that we used to have, we've had 29, I believe now we only have 23, and we used to have five quorums of the Seventy, when this was reorganized in 1995, and now we have 12. And so as the church continues to expand and grow and grow and grow, there's going to be changes, and that's the beauty of the inspiration behind the whole thing.
Richard One of the beautiful things about this, so there's a great article from elder... Elder Earl C. Tingey, about Area Authority Seventies. This was in the formerly Enzyme, currently Liahona, October 2002, where he talks about this, talks about how in Doctrine and Covenants, Section 107, how the Lord lays the groundwork for as the church grows and as it fills the whole earth, that this body of Seventy is structured in such a way to allow for it to grow. The number of areas that we used to have, we've had 29, I believe now we only have 23, and we used to have five quorums of the Seventy, when this was reorganized in 1995, and now we have 12. And so as the church continues to expand and grow and grow and grow, there's going to be changes, and that's the beauty of the inspiration behind the whole thing.
Gerrit In a business world, scalability?
Gerrit In a business world, scalability?
Richard Yeah, right.
Richard Yeah, right.
Gerrit Is there some scalability here?
Gerrit Is there some scalability here?
Richard Scalable and repeatable processes that allow for sustained growth. That's correct.
Richard Scalable and repeatable processes that allow for sustained growth. That's correct.
Gerrit That's the main reason why you're getting your Ph.D.
Gerrit That's the main reason why you're getting your Ph.D.
Richard 100%.
Richard 100%.
Gerrit To fully understand the growth of the Seventy, the office of the Seventy.
Gerrit To fully understand the growth of the Seventy, the office of the Seventy.
Richard Yeah, so it's beautiful in the way that the Lord has structured and set this up to allow it to grow. However, there is a difference between the two. I think that's at the heart of what I'm saying.
Richard Yeah, so it's beautiful in the way that the Lord has structured and set this up to allow it to grow. However, there is a difference between the two. I think that's at the heart of what I'm saying.
Gerrit I think the heart of what you're saying is that you want to be right.
Gerrit I think the heart of what you're saying is that you want to be right.
Richard I do. I so badly want to be right. I have so few wins in my life. I need this so bad. Janet, would you just please give this to me?
Richard I do. I so badly want to be right. I have so few wins in my life. I need this so bad. Janet, would you just please give this to me?
Gerrit We should. I mean, look, the terminology has changed a lot. I mean, I remember when we used to, I mean, I remember. It was like a week ago. I remember.
Gerrit We should. I mean, look, the terminology has changed a lot. I mean, I remember when we used to, I mean, I remember. It was like a week ago. I remember.
Richard Congratulations.
Richard Congratulations.
Gerrit I remember when we used to call them auxiliary presidencies.
Gerrit I remember when we used to call them auxiliary presidencies.
Richard And other organizations. No longer auxiliaries, they're organizations.
Richard And other organizations. No longer auxiliaries, they're organizations.
Gerrit Right. In fact, let's go to the fountain of all knowledge, and that's to the church itself. Let's go, but no better person to tell you what it is that they think they, their organization means than to the person controlling the organization. And if you go to the church's website, you have this explanation that is on the page under called General Church Leadership. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints follows the same pattern as the church that Jesus Christ established during his mortal ministry restored in modern times. He remains the head of the church and directs his chosen servants as they lead. The leaders of the worldwide church are known as General Authorities and General Officers. So you have that term, General is now being used even outside of authority for General Officers. General Authorities include the First Presidency, the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, General Authority Seventy, and the Presiding Bishopric.
Gerrit Right. In fact, let's go to the fountain of all knowledge, and that's to the church itself. Let's go, but no better person to tell you what it is that they think they, their organization means than to the person controlling the organization. And if you go to the church's website, you have this explanation that is on the page under called General Church Leadership. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints follows the same pattern as the church that Jesus Christ established during his mortal ministry restored in modern times. He remains the head of the church and directs his chosen servants as they lead. The leaders of the worldwide church are known as General Authorities and General Officers. So you have that term, General is now being used even outside of authority for General Officers. General Authorities include the First Presidency, the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, General Authority Seventy, and the Presiding Bishopric.
Gerrit General Officers include the General Presidencies of the Relief Society, Primary, Sunday School, Young Women and Young Men Organizations. The First Presidency is the highest governing body of the church. Along with the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, members of the First Presidency are special witnesses of Jesus Christ. They seek the Lord's guidance as they oversee the affairs of the church. General Authorities, General Officers, and other church leaders likewise seek divine guidance as they love and serve specific groups of church members throughout the world. So you get this very clear definition of what is considered a General Authority. Obviously, these are all things that I'm never going to be, so I don't have to worry about, you know, how exactly do I want my eternal elder to read? You know, do I have a middle initial? Does anyone know? But, you know, back to Richard's point, it is amazing how the Lord has established his church.
Gerrit General Officers include the General Presidencies of the Relief Society, Primary, Sunday School, Young Women and Young Men Organizations. The First Presidency is the highest governing body of the church. Along with the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, members of the First Presidency are special witnesses of Jesus Christ. They seek the Lord's guidance as they oversee the affairs of the church. General Authorities, General Officers, and other church leaders likewise seek divine guidance as they love and serve specific groups of church members throughout the world. So you get this very clear definition of what is considered a General Authority. Obviously, these are all things that I'm never going to be, so I don't have to worry about, you know, how exactly do I want my eternal elder to read? You know, do I have a middle initial? Does anyone know? But, you know, back to Richard's point, it is amazing how the Lord has established his church.
Gerrit It really is. And I gotta tell you, as a historian, watching as I read, right, watching the unfolding of God calling Joseph and Oliver, just his first and second elder. And then just a little bit more. One of Brigham Young's favorite phrases was God calling here a little and there a little. A little bit here and a little bit there. He uses it over and over and over again to explain that God is unfolding the restoration right before our eyes. As President Nelson said, the restoration is ongoing. This is not a finished process. We have the church and the best part about having a true and living church is that it changes. It's the best part about it. And yet at the same time, it's one of the reasons why people lose their minds.
Gerrit It really is. And I gotta tell you, as a historian, watching as I read, right, watching the unfolding of God calling Joseph and Oliver, just his first and second elder. And then just a little bit more. One of Brigham Young's favorite phrases was God calling here a little and there a little. A little bit here and a little bit there. He uses it over and over and over again to explain that God is unfolding the restoration right before our eyes. As President Nelson said, the restoration is ongoing. This is not a finished process. We have the church and the best part about having a true and living church is that it changes. It's the best part about it. And yet at the same time, it's one of the reasons why people lose their minds.
Gerrit Well, if the church isn't exactly the same as it was in 1847, then that proves that it's not being led by God anymore. Yeah, well, the church is being led by God when Lehi didn't live in Jerusalem anymore. I mean, the whole point in having the Lord lead the church is that the church then can receive inspiration to respond to the changing needs of the world. As the article Richard just cited demonstrates, the point is the needs of the church change over time. Our membership, where they're at changes over time. We have a million members in Mexico and a million members in Brazil basically at this point.
Gerrit Well, if the church isn't exactly the same as it was in 1847, then that proves that it's not being led by God anymore. Yeah, well, the church is being led by God when Lehi didn't live in Jerusalem anymore. I mean, the whole point in having the Lord lead the church is that the church then can receive inspiration to respond to the changing needs of the world. As the article Richard just cited demonstrates, the point is the needs of the church change over time. Our membership, where they're at changes over time. We have a million members in Mexico and a million members in Brazil basically at this point.
Richard In 1995, when this was first announced, it was about nine million members. Two years later, it was about ten million. The expansion has been incredibly dramatic.
Richard In 1995, when this was first announced, it was about nine million members. Two years later, it was about ten million. The expansion has been incredibly dramatic.
Gerrit Right. Even in this era of rejection of faith, in an era where all you ever hear about is how nobody believes and everyone's becoming a non, right? Everyone's getting rid of religion and they are fastly heading towards a secular world where God doesn't even exist. For all those stories that you hear, and look, we all have had painful experiences with loved ones we have that have walked away from the truth. The reality is, among churches, our church is still growing. Maybe not as quickly as it was, but it is rapidly growing. Hundreds of thousands of members in some places in Africa now. Hundreds of thousands in the space of a few decades. This church continues to expand. Now, there's going to be all kinds of headwinds, especially given the secular age that we live in.
Gerrit Right. Even in this era of rejection of faith, in an era where all you ever hear about is how nobody believes and everyone's becoming a non, right? Everyone's getting rid of religion and they are fastly heading towards a secular world where God doesn't even exist. For all those stories that you hear, and look, we all have had painful experiences with loved ones we have that have walked away from the truth. The reality is, among churches, our church is still growing. Maybe not as quickly as it was, but it is rapidly growing. Hundreds of thousands of members in some places in Africa now. Hundreds of thousands in the space of a few decades. This church continues to expand. Now, there's going to be all kinds of headwinds, especially given the secular age that we live in.
Gerrit But to me, that's the great beauty of being a part of the Lord's Church. That even in the organizational structure, the Lord makes it so that he can expand it when he needs to. He can draw it in when he needs to. He can make it more area specific when he needs to. And that's why we have a prophet. That's why we have a First Presidency and a Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, so that they can receive the revelation of how to best guide the Church into the future. This question of who has authority to lead the Church is sometimes at the very heart of not only apostates in the modern world, but apostates in the earlier ages of the Church. And so on our next episode, one of the things we're going to talk about is a particular, he wasn't an apostle, he wasn't an apothecary, but he was an apostate.
Gerrit But to me, that's the great beauty of being a part of the Lord's Church. That even in the organizational structure, the Lord makes it so that he can expand it when he needs to. He can draw it in when he needs to. He can make it more area specific when he needs to. And that's why we have a prophet. That's why we have a First Presidency and a Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, so that they can receive the revelation of how to best guide the Church into the future. This question of who has authority to lead the Church is sometimes at the very heart of not only apostates in the modern world, but apostates in the earlier ages of the Church. And so on our next episode, one of the things we're going to talk about is a particular, he wasn't an apostle, he wasn't an apothecary, but he was an apostate.
Gerrit And it's going to actually relate to one of our listeners' questions, because his apostasy is a very specific thing, where he's claiming that another aspect of Church authority, another office actually supersedes the office of an apostle. And now you're wondering, well, who is it? I'm pretty excited, right?
Gerrit And it's going to actually relate to one of our listeners' questions, because his apostasy is a very specific thing, where he's claiming that another aspect of Church authority, another office actually supersedes the office of an apostle. And now you're wondering, well, who is it? I'm pretty excited, right?
Richard Yeah, everyone's on the edge of their seats. I did want to say though, if I could to Janet, whose email was very funny.
Richard Yeah, everyone's on the edge of their seats. I did want to say though, if I could to Janet, whose email was very funny.
Gerrit It was hilarious.
Gerrit It was hilarious.
Richard It was well written, very funny. It's almost as though she's a writer. It's almost as though.
Richard It was well written, very funny. It's almost as though she's a writer. It's almost as though.
Gerrit Yeah, almost as though she's an experienced writer. Well known in the Wasatch front.
Gerrit Yeah, almost as though she's an experienced writer. Well known in the Wasatch front.
Richard Yes, it was very funny.
Richard Yes, it was very funny.
Gerrit She's a lot better writer than we are.
Gerrit She's a lot better writer than we are.
Richard Obviously. But that said, I will be putting in the description. There was in April of this year in the Church News, there was an article that was titled, What is the difference between a General Authority Seventy and an Area Seventy and a General Officer? How about that for timing?
Richard Obviously. But that said, I will be putting in the description. There was in April of this year in the Church News, there was an article that was titled, What is the difference between a General Authority Seventy and an Area Seventy and a General Officer? How about that for timing?
Gerrit Do you have a friend there that put that up for you? I've got a friend at the Church News. At the Church News Department. They didn't even run this article, but you said, I need you to put this up and I need you to postate it.
Gerrit Do you have a friend there that put that up for you? I've got a friend at the Church News. At the Church News Department. They didn't even run this article, but you said, I need you to put this up and I need you to postate it.
Richard Jenna, call me out. I need you to postate it for April of 2020.
Richard Jenna, call me out. I need you to postate it for April of 2020.
Gerrit And the gangrenous Antwoop hobbles on. All right. Thank you so much for joining us.
Gerrit And the gangrenous Antwoop hobbles on. All right. Thank you so much for joining us.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.
Quote board
Make a share card from any lineThey, they liked the direction of some of it, although one of the people on the committee said that she thought that my idea was cute.
It's honestly been one of the greatest innovations in the church in my lifetime. The creation of the Area Authority Seventies.
Sure, I've got gangrene in one leg. I went to a watering hole, got like the other leg bit off by a crocodile, spiritual crocodile.
Now, on the bright side, when I do make a mistake, we stop the recording, we cut it out, and then whenever Richard makes a mistake, we leave it in.
So he said, you know, I often tell people, if you want to serve in leadership, the key is to move to a place without a lot of talent.
I do. I so badly want to be right. I have so few wins in my life. I need this so bad.
We have the church and the best part about having a true and living church is that it changes.
But to me, that's the great beauty of being a part of the Lord's Church. That even in the organizational structure, the Lord makes it so that he can expand it when he needs to.
Source shelf
15 sources cited on air · verses link to the scriptures, Joseph Smith’s documents to the Joseph Smith Papersother
Joseph Smith and the Restoration (premium), the "used car salesman" episode on Johann Tetzel
The premium episode where Gerrit outed Richard's pet peeve about Area Seventies.
sermon
Gordon B. Hinckley, April 1995 general conference announcement of Area Authorities
Created Area Authority Seventies; the First and Second Quorums remain General Authorities.
sermon
Spencer W. Kimball, October 1976 general conference, folding the Assistants to the Twelve into the First Quorum of the Seventy
since the functions and responsibilities of the assistants to the Twelve and the Seventy are similar
The office of Assistant to the Twelve ran from 1941 to 1976. Gerrit says "General Conference of 1976"; it was the October conference.
revelation
Doctrine and Covenants 102:24-26
The high priests when abroad have a power to call and organize a council after the manner of the foregoing to settle difficulties when the parties of either of them shall request it.
Minutes of an 1834 high council meeting: traveling high priests may call a council and send the decision to headquarters.
revelation
Doctrine and Covenants 102:27
Should the parties of either of them be dissatisfied with the decision of said council, they may appeal to the High Council of the seat of the first presence of the church and have a rehearing.
The appeal process from a council abroad to the standing high council.
revelation
Doctrine and Covenants 102:30-32
From the decision of the former, there can be an appeal. But from the decision of the latter, there cannot.
Verses Joseph added after the Twelve were called in 1835; the first appearance of "general authorities" in scripture.
record
Minutes of the Far West conference, April 7, 1838
the General Authorities of the Church met to hold the first quarterly conference of the Church of the Latter-day Saints.
Uses "general authorities" without defining it.
sermon
Franklin D. Richards, 1856 report on a conference in Birmingham, England
We had a joyful conference at Birmingham and a council of the general authorities of the church in those countries.
Here "general" seems to mean common or local leaders, almost the opposite of today.
sermon
Erastus Snow, discourse on not expecting church leaders to feed everyone (date not given on air)
That is to say, they need not to expect the general authorities of this church to bear this people in their bosoms
Snow uses "general authorities" for Brigham Young and the church's top leaders.
sermon
Erastus Snow, general conference, 1879
And then come the general authorities, who preside over and minister in the affairs of the Church in all the earth.
A definition that still works today: general authorities aren't limited to any stake or area.
article
Earl C. Tingey, article on Area Authority Seventies, Ensign (now Liahona), October 2002
Explains how D&C 107 lets the Seventy grow with the church.
revelation
Doctrine and Covenants 107
Lays the groundwork for the Seventy to expand as the church fills the earth.
other
"General Church Leadership," churchofjesuschrist.org
General Authorities include the First Presidency, the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, General Authority Seventy, and the Presiding Bishopric.
Gerrit goes to the church's own website for today's definitions.
sermon
Russell M. Nelson on the ongoing Restoration (talk not named on air)
the restoration is ongoing.
Gerrit quotes it to say a living church is supposed to change.
article
Church News, April of the recording year, "What is the difference between a General Authority Seventy and an Area Seventy and a General Officer?"
Richard's well-timed proof, to be linked in the description; he jokes it should be backdated.
Episode quiz
Pass to stamp your passportQuestion 1 of 8Score 0
What did a member of Richard's dissertation committee call his idea?
Fun with Numbers
This episode, counted from its transcript49:53long
12.8 minbefore the topic starts
15sources read or named
4scripture passages
11different years mentioned
0dollar amounts said
From 1834 to 1995
Every year mentioned in the episode. Tap one to jump to it.
Percentages said on air
Putting numbers to words
All 7,618 words of the automatic transcript, counted against a word list for each theme. It shows how much a theme comes up, not what was said about it. See the lists
What this episode talks about more than usual
- Prophets and priesthood63 mentions, 4.7 times the show’s usual rate
Names said most
Joseph counts any Joseph.
Joseph 6Brigham Young 5Jesus Christ 2Sidney Rigdon 2John C. Bennett 2Russell M. Nelson 2
Signature words
Said often here and in few other episodes.
seventies 11assistant 11functions 6antelope 6abroad 7reorganize 4
More from this episode
Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.
Claim check
What critics say, and what the episode foundAnyone above a stake president has always been called a General Authority.
If the church today isn't organized exactly as it was in 1847, it isn't led by God anymore.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.
Take it to class
Ready to copy into a lesson or a textThe meaning of "General Authority" grew over time; today it means leaders who serve the whole church, not one area.
From the Assistants to the Twelve (1941-1976) to Area Seventies (1995), the Lord has adjusted the church's structure as it grew.
D&C 102 gave the Twelve a council whose decisions couldn't be appealed, one of the first steps in building up their authority.
A true and living church is supposed to change; as President Nelson has taught, the Restoration is ongoing.
Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.
Banter bin
The running jokes, for people who skip aheadAlmost-PhD arroganceRichard is at his most arrogant, despite a committee member calling his idea cute (1:26, 1:56).
Bill the adultererGerrit can't remember if Bill was a fornicator or an adulterer, and Bill still owes an email (2:46).
You, sir, are no JanetA 1992 vice presidential debate reference, which is on brand (3:03, 3:20).
The gangrenous antelopeJanet the hyena goes after the weakest animal in the herd; the podcast hobbles on (10:54, 11:14, 18:03, 49:18).
Apostles, Apostates and ApothecariesA friend suggested the other A word, which turned out to be apothecary (24:11).
Mailbag rice tariffsGerrit's mock church court includes someone claiming rice tariffs are uninteresting (22:58).
Gambling with JanetDon't play poker with her; she'll get you on the river (38:36).
The Church News friendRichard's article arrives with suspicious timing and should be backdated (48:43, 49:05).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag
Your question could be next week’s episodeQuestions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
General ConferenceGeneral Conference talks that cite a scripture read in this episode.
In General Conference
Talks from the latest General Conference that cite a scripture this episode reads or names on airSummaries, themes and lessons for every talk are on What Did They Say?
Go deeperWhere to read more.
Go deeper
Deep dives the episode points towardThe Assistants to the Twelve, from 1941 to 1976, and the apostles who first served in that calling (12:49).
D&C 102 and the early church's appeal system, which the Salt Lake Stake high council kept into the 20th century (24:25).
How the First Presidency in Joseph's day differed from today's, when its members weren't apostles (15:40).
Next episode's apostate, who claimed another office outranked the apostles (46:49).
SOT Litner · S3E36.