Baptism Required for Salvation

Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.

Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.

Richard Hello, Gerrit. In this week's episode, we're going to answer a couple of emails, and I guess we'll just get into it here in the Phoebe Dreamer.

Gerrit I thought maybe we would talk about that BYU-Kansas game.

Richard I'd rather not.

Gerrit We're not talking about it. So we were going to talk about it. And we were until the fourth quarter comeback fell apart.

Richard Yeah, I don't want to talk about that. I don't want to talk about anything college football related. Oklahoma State stinks.

Gerrit This is like the worst Oklahoma State's been in a long time.

Richard BYU is...

Gerrit Kansas is good. Kansas is good. I mean, Arkansas was a play away from beating...

Richard That game was great, and it filled me with such hope. And I was so excited. They did. But yeah, if you think you're just walking into Lawrence and coming out there with a W and it hasn't been... And it's not the past 45 years, you're wrong.

Gerrit Yeah. Well, I mean, oh, I thought you're meaning basketball.

Richard No, no, and football for sure. I mean, they were good. They were good. The one, by the way, there is something, one of the greatest photographs in the history of sports is the... So Kansas, occasionally they'll get a good quarterback. They have a good quarterback now. Occasionally, they'll get a good quarterback. And when they get a good quarterback, they make a run, do pretty well. It's once every 20 years. One of the greatest photographs in the history of sports is Kansas, Crud, when was this, like 10 years ago, they went to the Orange Bowl. And with Mangino, they have a picture of him standing next to the Syracuse or the Orange Bowl mascot, which looks like the Syracuse orange person though, right? And they both, it's difficult to tell the two apart. It's one of my favorite photos of all time.

Gerrit He was a gentleman of great carriage.

Richard Yeah. Yeah. Willard Richards.

Gerrit Yeah, he was big enough that Willard Richards would have said, you know what? You might want to ease it back on the suites.

Richard Yeah. Anyway, you've got to do the search for it.

Gerrit And get shot with this multiple gun.

Richard It's one of the greatest sports photos of all time. But yeah, no, college football, my seasons, I root for teams that I love and they quickly are out of any...

Gerrit I'm sure there's a lot of happy Ohio State fans though.

Richard Yeah. Yeah. You know what? Notre Dame, go ahead and put more than six people on the field and that'll help you out.

Gerrit We don't know how we couldn't stop them.

Richard They still almost did. They still almost did.

Gerrit Because the one guy who wasn't on the field was probably like their nose tackled, was supposed to stop the run.

Richard Oh, last week was some great college football. So on Saturdays, I lock myself in my tower and work on dissertation stuff. But last week, there were so many good college football games. I will admit, I was less productive than usual. It was a lot of fun.

Gerrit Having worked on a dissertation less productive than usual means I stared at the screen and then went back downstairs and got some chips.

Richard One screen. I had like four screens going with games.

Gerrit Oh, when I was doing my dissertation, it was a black and white TV because I had to have a real job. Well, I'm glad everyone is still with us after the George Adams. I think a lot of people are like, you know what, if George Adams isn't really the Messiah, I'm out.

Richard Well, we have this first email. This comes to us from Larry. I have a couple of questions. I have mulled over. And now I'm finally getting around to asking. I would like to be funny, but I spent the rest of my days trying to be funny. I have nothing left to offer. In one of your podcasts...

Gerrit Sounds like he's a condemned man or something. I spent the last two weeks of my last two weeks to live trying to find some funny way to get you guys to read this email.

Richard Well, so sometimes... So first of all, he addresses it Richard. Like that's how he starts. Doesn't even pretend. And as you know, I'm an ego maniac. And that's the fastest way to my heart. And one of your podcasts... But one of the things that he does, so anytime that an email is asked that allows for Gerrit to spike the volleyball or whatever, whatever ball, Gerrit spiking it. And so this email does allow for that with the question of Alvin.

Gerrit So when we get asked a question that's really easy, you have a much better chance of getting read on the air.

Richard It's 100%. So I knew we were recording today, but I almost respond... Like when I have the ability to respond, that's when you know we want to answer that question.

Gerrit I think I've got a little bit of a... I've got a little bit of something up my sleeve on this, I think.

Richard Oh, really?

Gerrit Okay. Yeah. I'm tricking you.

Richard In one of the podcasts a while ago, you talked about differences in the Sermon on the Mount, passages in the Book of Mormon versus the Bible versus the Joseph Smith translation. Do we know if under the crazy circumstances, Joseph was experiencing while translating the Book of Mormon, he had a Bible handy? Maybe that was something they thought to pack when they moved to Harmony. But I have wondered, I could also see them just packing bare necessities. If he didn't have a Bible handy, that would seem to make the Isaiah and Sermon on the Mount chapters all the more remarkable. In some other podcasts, you have talked about the prevalent Protestant view that baptism was not something necessary for salvation. I get that. How do you square that with the comments the preacher made at Alvin's funeral that Alvin was in hell since he had not been baptized? I'm sure you can square these without much effort, but my brain is part of COVID fatigue.

Gerrit Thank you, Larry, for trusting me.

Richard For not much effort. Well, so actually, it's important that he doesn't address you in the email. He addresses me, which you're never mentioned.

Gerrit Which is why you were ready to answer this email.

Richard Yeah, in fact, when we got together and you're like, hey, what emails? I'm like, hey, you know what? I think Larry had a really good email. We should look at Larry's. Thanks for having fun and worthwhile platform for learning more about the restoration. Keep it up, Larry. Larry, that's a great question. Gerrit, your thoughts?

Gerrit Well, it's a two-part question, right? I don't think we'll get two podcasts out of it, although we could devolve into a discussion about wheat prices in early New York. Let's see where that takes us. What do we think? Is that a...

Richard Yeah, boy, if we can turn two questions like this into a four-part... We have received some helpful feedback from folks on that they enjoy the multi-parters, and so we do want to get into some more of those. Season three has been... We receive a lot of emails, and we certainly like to respond to a lot of those, but we've done Apostles, Apostates, Apothecaries, part one, part one and a half, and so we want to get into a little bit more of those, but this one, Gerrit, I think we probably will be able to get in the first part of this one episode.

Gerrit Yeah, I think unless we wax poetic, which we never do, we wax philosophical, we wax our cars, we wax. As the moon grows, so does our ability to respond. So in the first one, I mean, the question of does Joseph Smith have his Bible with him? Does he take it down with him when he's translating in harmony? And then, of course, you know, much of what his translation takes place in Fayette as well. These are things that you wouldn't be able to know definitively, right? But we know that Joseph has a Bible, and even if Joseph doesn't have his Bible, he has ready access to Bibles everywhere. I mean, the one thing that you don't have to worry about finding in any home anywhere in America in 1828 is a Bible, right? You might find cholera. You might find dysentery.

Gerrit You might find someone thinking that if you get a cayenne pepper enema, it will cure you. But most importantly, there will be a Bible.

Richard So it's like essentially like a an end table in a Marriott. You're going to find all kinds of things.

Gerrit Yeah, so you've found cayenne pepper substances in an enema?

Richard Well, I mean, Bibles. I mean, I've covered the Book of Mormon, but you probably didn't have too many of those handy. Yeah.

Gerrit Well, so scholars, Larry, don't really... The question of, well, what if he didn't have his Bible with him really isn't a very compelling question to scholars, just because the Bible is the most ubiquitous book in the Western world. I was going to say on Earth, but there'd be several billion Muslims and Hindus who would also be upset about that. But in America, certainly, one of the effects of the Protestant Reformation that if you want to learn more about, we have on our premium podcast. We've been talking about that, haven't we?

Richard Yes. So there's a couple of ways to get that. Number one way is to subscribe and to increase Gerrit's filthy lucre. Number two is to be a missionary where... Right. Number two is to be a missionary where I feel guilty and I give it to you for free, or to be a 13-year-old. Those are the three ways to get it.

Gerrit At what point are adults going to just start lying that they're missionaries?

Richard Well, you know what? I'm a sucker. They should start doing that immediately.

Gerrit Okay, so they've already started doing that, is what you're saying.

Richard Well, I mean, if it's firstname.lastname.missionary.org, I mean, that's kind of the... It's a bit of a tell.

Gerrit I feel like we're setting ourselves up for a lot of spoofed email addresses is what we're doing now. I actually just gave a fireside to Richard Sun's mission, as well as several other missions.

Richard Yeah, all Spain. All three missions in Spain were there. It was great. I loved it. It was awesome.

Gerrit It was over Zoom. Don't worry. I didn't fly.

Richard I didn't fly out. Although, so I did get the Zoom. And so I wanted to see the fireside. And so I hopped on. Everyone's on there with video. I obviously blocked my video. And then I changed my name to just Elder. So it's four pages of pictures and videos of all these missionaries. Hundreds of missionaries all over Spain. And then one black just as Elder as my name as I watched Gerrit's fireside.

Gerrit I wanted to just ask Richard a question while I was going, Hey, Richard, can you tell me that, and then have him say, we'll get our crack research squad on it and just have the mission president not know who was talking.

Richard So there was, there were multiple parts that were great. It was about, primarily about Joe Smith, early part of the restoration, Gerrit bore a great testimony and gave a great fireside. My favorite part about Gerrit's firesides are often the Q&A. So as good as the presentation was, that was about 45 minutes or so. The Q&A went for about an hour and 15 minutes until it was 1130 at night in Spain, and it was time for everyone to go to bed. In fact, one person that asked a question said, hey, just really quick, because I'm really tired. Could you... So by the way, in Spain, in most missions, bedtime is 1030, but in Spain, bedtime is 1130. So they do things a little different out there. A siesta. Espana. But my favorite part about that Q&A, by the way, was we got a couple of questions, and it was good, and things were going along, and then somebody asked a question about polygamy. And so what happened is you had, you know, people were raising their hands, you know, virtually in Zoom, how you do, right?

Richard And so we had four or five questions. When I say we, I mean, I was smuggled myself onto the... into the... Anyway, so we had four or five questions. It was going well. And then there was a question about polygamy. And Gerrit answered it well, like he always does. And then like 15 hands went up.

Gerrit The board lit up like a Christmas tree. Like it was the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade, and they just said, okay, light it. That's what it was.

Richard It was hilarious. So the mission president said, you know, we'll have to get Gerrit back to do a fireside on just polygamy in a couple of months. I may be out of town for that one.

Gerrit Back to our initial question on the answer of Joseph having a Bible. Some things are so ubiquitous that scholars, whether they're in the church or outside of the church, would not attempt to make arguments on the basis of whether or not he had his own personal Bible with him. So, for instance, let's say Joseph doesn't have his Bible. And then the Isaiah chapters and the Matthew chapters, they're very similar. Well, a non-Latter-day Saint scholar is simply going to say, oh, okay, well, we know Joseph left his Bible, probably running through the woods as people were trying to tar and feather him as they're getting out of town in Palmyra. So how could he possibly have done that? Oh, because there's like 17,000 Bibles in between Palmyra and Harmony. At every single home, there's one. So they're initially in Isaac Hale's home. Isaac Hale's clearly someone who's very proficient in the Bible, cares about the Bible.

Gerrit Emma probably has her own Bible, in fact. So those are the types of arguments that are really intriguing. So it's a super intriguing question, Larry. We can say that all of the witnesses of translation all make a point when they talk about how the translation actually takes place. They all make a point of saying, he did not have anything he was reading from. So now they don't all say that specifically, but when they describe the scene, they describe it as there's nothing between them and Joseph. Joseph places the seer stone, Urim and Thummim stones in the hat. Joseph looks into the hat. Joseph begins dictating. And then Martin Harris, specifically to prove that people, because people were claiming that Joseph was just, he was just reading in the bottom of Joseph's hat. He just had a whole bunch of things like written, I guess, in pretty small type.

Gerrit Imagine trying to read Second Nephi in small type with the Isaiah chapters. And that he was just reading it off, and that's how he could just pick back up where he was, and that's how it was so articulate, and that's how it was words that were clearly beyond Joseph Smith's capabilities. And so Martin Harris, that's when he swaps out the stone for another stone that looks pretty similar to it. And Joseph doesn't notice that the stone was swapped out, but he's not able to translate. So the entire premise of Martin Harris' little demonstration that really is coming from God is that the words are appearing on the seer stone. Now, Joseph isn't consulting his Bible and pulling it down, or at least we don't have any sources that say that. All of our sources say that Joseph Smith translated the gold plates through the Urim and Thummim.

Gerrit Would it be a little bit more of a slam dunk, right? If you could prove that Joseph didn't even have a Bible and then received as words, you know, very similar things from Isaiah and from Matthew? Sure, that would be a cool thing. The problem is it would just be impossible to prove in a way that would be accepted by critics anyway, right? Because even if we had a source where Joseph wrote in a letter, Dad, I totally forgot my Bible when we moved down here. Can you send it? Oh, wait, I know you don't even have enough money to send me things. Can you have Samuel run down here with it? He's my younger brother, so he can bring it to me. Even if you had a letter that said that, it wouldn't help prove the divinity of the Book of Mormon because a critic would simply just say, yeah, well, Isaac Hale is a pretty well-off guy. Probably every single person in that family has a Bible. I'm sure Joseph has access to a Bible. No worries, right? Now, the other thing to consider too about this is the Isaiah portion of it is actually not in harmony.

Gerrit The Isaiah portion is the portion that's translated when they're in Fayette because 2 Nephi is one of the last things that they translate. Remember that when the translation goes forward, after the loss of the 116 pages, they don't just go back and restart with 1 Nephi. They keep going from Mosiah, Alma, 3 Nephi, all the way to the end, and then they come back around to the small plates and do 1 and 2 Nephi. And so 2 Nephi is actually near the end of his translation, not near the beginning. We think of it near the beginning because that's where we stop reading when we're reading on our own and we get to the Isaiah chapters and then we stop. But it's actually near the end. So whether he had a Bible in harmony would really be more of a question whether he had one in Fayette. And of course, again, in Fayette, there's Bibles aplenty. There's Bibles everywhere. Bibles are the thing that every person has to have in their home.

Gerrit The same way that everyone expects you to have a bathroom in your home today with a flushing toilet, people expect that you have a Bible in your home in 19th century America. Do you think that was sufficient for that one, Richard?

Richard I do, actually.

Gerrit He had a little bit of a look on his face, like, is that it? Are you done?

Richard No, no, it's good, yeah. You can't forget that cat without hitting the Bible, yeah.

Gerrit Exactly. Well, so the second question, and this is a pretty intriguing question, and it's one that we've covered a little bit. We were talking about Doctrine and Covenants, Section 110, especially we talked about this. We talked a little bit about it with Doctrine and Covenants, Section 76, with the vision. So there are lots of things here that we've touched on, but the question about why is it that the... Oh, can you read word for word what he says there about the baptism again?

Richard Yeah, you bet.

Gerrit That he was in heaven because he wasn't baptized?

Richard Yeah, you bet.

Gerrit That he was in heaven because he wasn't baptized?

Richard Yes, by the prevalent Protestant view, the baptism was not something necessary for salvation. I get that. How do you square that with the comments that the preacher made at Alvin's funeral that Alvin was in hell since he had not been baptized?

Gerrit Okay, very good. Now, the fact that there was a Presbyterian preacher preaching at Alvin's funeral is not surprising at all because Lucy is a Presbyterian. And in fact, she's a pretty devout Presbyterian, as well as, at least according to William Smith, several of Joseph's brothers and his sisters. So, I mean, Presbyterianism, his dad doesn't belong to a church, but if his family had to be anything, where they go most often, at least where most of them go, is to the Presbyterian church. So that's not really a surprise there. But the question you have is a great one. Look, Presbyterians do not believe that baptism is essential for salvation. Now, so why in the world would he say, well, you know, Alvin's in hell because he wasn't baptized? When we covered this before, one of the things I focused on is that, look, while baptism is not essential for salvation, a Presbyterian at the time, Presbyterians in the 19th century, very strongly believed in the predestined salvation of grace that was given by God to whoever God wanted to save.

Gerrit So you weren't saved because you sat down and read the Bible that you didn't bring with you when you were going to try to translate the Book of Mormon. You weren't saved because, you know, you did a good deed for your neighbor, and that put you over the top in the merit column. You weren't saved because you sat down and you studied the Book of Revelation and you realized that Jesus was coming, and it made you come back to Jesus. No, you were saved before you were ever created because God chose to save you. Now, he shouldn't have chosen to save you, but he did, meaning that baptism, and in fact, all other ordinances, things that we would call ordinances, in fact, all other actions have no bearing on your salvation at all. But that's because we are looking at, you know, we're trying to eat the cake before it's baked, essentially, before it's even mixed up.

Gerrit For a Calvinist, and Presbyterians are hardcore Calvinists, this grace that is freely given by God, it is given, and because it is given to the people that God has chosen to save, which is, by the way, almost nobody. If you are someone that God has chosen to give that gift of faith, you are going to feel drawn to the Scriptures. See, it's the exact opposite of the way that Latter-day Saints think about it. Latter-day Saints think, you know, if you just pray and read the Book of Mormon, then you'll gain a testimony that it's true. A Calvinist would say, yes, you better be reading your Scriptures because God commanded you to do it. But if you don't feel that Jesus is your Savior, it's likely because God never chose to save you. You're probably one of the people that was never chosen to be given the gift of salvation. And that's the reason why you can't feel this wellspring of goodness in your heart. Because you are, like all people, a corrupt sinner who deserves to burn in hell.

Gerrit So that's an important part of this, is that for the preacher, Alvin is an adult. Alvin's an adult who's never been baptized. So no matter how Christian Alvin might consider himself, you can see the Presbyterian preacher saying, let me get this straight. He's in his twenties, but has never been baptized. First and foremost, that means there's a problem on his parents' side of things, right? Because in the Presbyterian church, baptism took place most often when a child was born. And so what happens is at least one person has to be a member of the Presbyterian church, and then they take that child to be baptized, and the baptism is done usually by pouring or sprinkling. Again, that baptism isn't salvific.

Gerrit It's not changing anybody's mind. But you do it as a sign that you're entering in to this covenant of grace and that if God chose to give that grace, that here's this parent saying, I offer up this child to God, hopeful that God will give him the grace that will save him or her. Well, there is a little bit of a caveat to this. So you can see the preacher could say, look, Alvin's, what, 25 when he dies? I mean, if he's 25 and still doesn't, hasn't joined a church, doesn't, hasn't felt the call of Jesus Christ to get baptized the way Jesus told people to get baptized, well, how saved is he? It's not like he doesn't have opportunities to hear about the Bible. It's not like he doesn't have preachers all around him. He must never have been saved in the first place.

Gerrit So that's an important thing. The way that people are looking at this in the 19th century is that salvation is not something that you do. Salvation is something that God does. And that because God does it, then you change your actions. Now I said I had a little bit of a trick up my sleeve though, Richard. I know you're excited about this, aren't you?

Richard I can't wait, yeah.

Gerrit I do think that a little bit of the confusion here comes because we as Latter-day Saints misinterpret what is actually said. So first and foremost, that the preacher had a problem with Alvin is coming from an incredibly late source. Give me a year that you think would be a pretty late source for the 19th century, Richard. Okay, so Alvin died in November of 1823.

Richard Okay, so 1830, seven years later, perhaps.

Gerrit That's pretty late. That's right.

Richard So now, by the way, the way that you play this game, it's very important that you understand. So if I said, oh boy, 1950, well, now you've ruined it.

Gerrit What's that in the 19th century? I mean, I guess you can say 1899.

Richard I said 1899, yeah, right. I've ruined the game. So I want to give a number. I want to give a number that's reasonable, but a number that then you come back and then you crush it with. So I'm going to say 1830 final answer.

Gerrit So you're letting them in behind the scene.

Richard That's exactly right.

Gerrit Yeah, this is the fourth wall. If we were a magician company, it would no longer be pen and teller.

Richard Well, so my wife is the worst at this game, by the way, because the game is, there's a way that you're supposed to answer this. Like I'll say something like, this thing we did, and it was this huge deal we closed. And guess how much? She's going to be like 50 million. And I'm like, well, no matter what you say after that, I'm like, well, average deal size is 7,500. So no, it's not 50 million. You've ruined the game, and I don't want to play anymore, and good night.

Gerrit Right. It's kind of like Miami scoring 70 last week.

Richard Oh my gosh.

Gerrit Right. So when I was like, hey, do you know how many points the Dolphins scored? And you know, Kai was like 80. I'm like, son, no one's ever scored 80. So no, they didn't just score. Fine, fine.

Richard I saw the highlights on Monday. Obviously, Sunday, I was reading my scriptures. I didn't see any of the game, but I heard...

Gerrit Were you reading your scriptures because Grace had called you to it?

Richard I was reading Isaiah and wondering, I wonder if Joseph had a Bible?

Gerrit Because of Larry's question.

Richard That's right.

Gerrit So the source from this, first of all, is kind of a rough source for me.

Richard John C. Bennett.

Gerrit Not that rough. No, no, no, no, no. For the days where if we want to do a six-parter, we could just do it on John C. Bennett and how much I hate him.

Richard So can I guess then perhaps the one that... Is this Samuel Smith?

Gerrit No, he loves Samuel Smith. He's amazing.

Richard Is it one of the Smith brothers then?

Gerrit Yes, it is one of the Smith brothers. I'll give you a hint. He and Joseph got in a fist fight once.

Richard Hiram.

Gerrit No. No.

Richard But didn't he and Hiram get in a fight?

Gerrit No, him and William Smith.

Richard Oh, William Smith. I could have swore that... I've got to go back and listen to the three years of episodes. I could have swore that he got in a... No, it was William.

Gerrit It was William. So William is the only surviving Smith boy after Samuel dies, because all of the others have died before that. And of course, Joseph and Hyrum are murdered. Well, William Smith gives an interview. At the time, he's affiliated with the Reorganized Church, right? And it's his nephew that is the one running the church, Joseph Smith III. Well, this is in 1894. January 27th of 1894.

Richard I was close what I said 1899 is a joke.

Gerrit Yeah, it is not recently. Well, it's actually January 13th because it's published in the newspaper, the Zion's Enzyme newspaper, which is a reorganized church publication. And then it's republished in the Deseret News. So I mean, I don't know how many people are reading the Zion's standard newspaper. So right now you're reading it.

Richard I think they just threw it at my door, yeah.

Gerrit Anyway, so 1894, okay, that's how far away from these events it is. Alvin dies in 1823. Okay, so we are 71 years removed. And our witness to the fact is William Smith, who, you know, he lives a long time. So because he lives a long time, he has a lot of opportunities to talk about things. You know what I mean? Like, because he lives a long time, he comments on things because he's asked about them all the time. But a lot of these things are going on when he's not super old, right? So, I mean, he's like nine when Joseph Smith has his First Vision. He's five years younger than Joseph Smith, okay? So look, he would have been cognizant. He certainly would have been old enough. He would have been a teenager when Alvin, you know, when Alvin died.

Gerrit I guess he would have been barely. Maybe it would have only been 12, depending. So you are taking what a 12 year old perceives of this horrible, tragic event, pushing it 71 years into the future, and then you're getting that commentary on it. Now, does that mean that it's not true? No, please don't misunderstand me. I am not saying that means it's not true, but it does mean that you have to be a little bit careful with sources that are reminiscences of that far back. I mean, I don't remember exactly what conversation Richard and I both had about politics when we first met one another. I'm sure we had one, maybe, but I don't remember the nature of it. I'm sure it was, why can't we get Ross Perot back up there? It was, you know what?

Gerrit Actually, it was probably Bo Grites. It was probably some Bo Grites because we're both from Idaho. And so you're like, you know what? It's all Bo Grites.

Richard What was the... We did joke about Ross Perot actually, because in Idaho, he got like 40% of the vote or something. In Idaho, you can't find a person that voted for him.

Gerrit It's hilarious. With Ross Perot, he's the only person in American history to win like 20% of the vote that not a single person ever voted for. You can't fight anybody. They are scarce. Just like it's pretty hard to find the members of the Green Party who voted for Jill Stein in 2000. There's not a lot of them. Not a lot of them who come forward.

Richard I think it was Nader. I think it was Nader.

Gerrit Oh, it was Nader. It's right. It's Jill Stein later with the... But anyway, so in this, this is an interview. Now, it's published posthumously. William Smith dies in 1893. And so this is like the last interview of William Smith. So it's our last time to hear from him. And so as he's talking about things, he's bringing things up. He says, Hyrum, Samuel and Catherine and mother were members of the Presbyterian Church. My father would not join. He did not like it because Reverend Stockton had preached at my brother's funeral sermon, had preached my brother's funeral sermon, and intimated very strongly that he had gone to hell. For Alvin was not a church member, but he was a good boy and my father did not like it. Now it goes on where he says that Reverend Stockton is one of the ones that is leading the leading the call to sermonizing that leads Joseph Smith to have the questions that he does.

Gerrit Of course, that's a little bit out of order, right? Because Joseph has already had the First Vision by the time Alvin dies. Or maybe the person recording the interview too is also, I mean, they don't know all of these events. So maybe William Smith, like we are want to do when we are old, is kind of bouncing back and forth between things. That's also a factor that he could be giving an aside. Well, they were all Presbyterians. You know, no dad never joined the Presbyterians because he was so mad about what happened with Alvin. And that doesn't have to be absolutely in order of when the first fishing was. At any rate, you'll notice a very particular difference there from the question that was asked and what is actually in the source, what's actually in the source. For Alvin was not a church member. Now, being a member of the church is very different than baptism, but to a Latter Day Saint, they're the same thing.

Gerrit Because a Latter Day Saint, we see baptism as so essential to be a part of a church and as an essential ordinance. You aren't a member of our church without being baptized. Similarly, you haven't made that first covenant that you need to make, that first ordinance, without baptism. So I think then what happens is we kind of fast forward it to what Joseph says about when he has his vision of the celestial kingdom. Joseph has his vision of the celestial kingdom. Most of this, or much of it now, is Doctrine and Covenants, section 137. But he talks about what he sees when he's there. And the part of it that is the most surprising to him is that he sees Alvin there. And seeing Alvin there, he has to wonder, how is this even possible?

Gerrit And in fact, we've talked about it before, that he uses that terminology, that I marveled that he'd obtained such a kingdom. And what are the phrasologies that Joseph uses there? He says that he sees Abraham and Michael and my father and mother, my brother Alvin, that has long since slept, and marveled how it was that he'd obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, talking about the celestial kingdom. Seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord, had set his hand to gather Israel a second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of his sins. Now that's coming from Joseph because of Doctrine and Covenants, Section 76. Doctrine and Covenants, Section 76 says that in order to obtain the celestial kingdom, you have to belong to the church of the firstborn. That you have to be a member of the church. Well, how are you a member of the church in Latter-day Saint theology?

Gerrit Well, you get baptized to be a member of the church. In wider Protestant thoughts, baptism can serve as the initiation ritual into the church, but it actually might not. In fact, in Presbyterianism, especially it might not. Why? Well, if you were listening to our premium content or quickly ran out and signed up to serve a service mission somewhere, so you can then claim that you don't have the funds to pay for the, you know, to glut ourselves on our labor.

Richard That will work, by the way. Send me and, you know, I'm happy to send the bootlegged Google Drive access link to any missionary.

Gerrit To any missionary.

Richard Yeah.

Gerrit Within reason. We're going to call that within reason. You know what? We also want more people to sign up for our Palmyra tour. If you are considering going, we've got some great people signed up. I mean, this is going to be fun.

Richard It's going to be a lot of fun.

Gerrit I'm already all kinds of excited. So if you've been thinking about going to those church history sites, you should come with us next year. Last year was more fun than I've had in much of my life. And this year, just by the people alone who signed up, I don't want to tip any scales, but there's a chance that a certain peace officer who has perhaps at times caused criminals to listen to the podcast as penance while they're being driven to the Hoosegow, he may or may not be joining us on that. That's just a little bit of a telegraph there. How about that?

Richard It is funny. It is funny. It's like, hey, we're going to see all these sites. Hey, come and spend time with us, whatever. No one interested. Hey, Rock, you know, Officer R might come. Oh, you know what?

Gerrit Okay.

Richard Yeah, let's do it.

Gerrit Okay.

Richard Yeah, let's do it.

Gerrit Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, so if you were listening on the Premium, one of the things we had talked about is this. One of the major early reactions to the Reformation, the radical Reformation, as it's called, is that of the Anabaptists. Now, the word Anna in front of Baptist, part of the whole point of Anabaptists is they were radical reformers, meaning they wanted all tradition to be gone entirely. If it doesn't specifically say it in the Bible, we are not going to believe it. It's not just a matter. I mean, they're taking Luther who says, you know, you got to show me in the Bible for me to believe, and they're taking it to its full conclusion, right? Because Luther is still going to argue for infant baptism, and he's going to argue it for the basis of, well, look, the scriptures talk about the fact that, you know, you bring children to the Lord, maybe circumcised when they're eight days old.

Gerrit There are multiple places in the scripture that talk about an entire household being baptized. Of course, there's got to be some kind of child. They're infant in some of those households. Therefore, infant baptism is the way to go. But the Bible doesn't specifically say infants were baptized. And so one of the arguments of these Anabaptists was that if you had a baptism that was not done when you were an adult, when you were confessing your faith, then it's an illegitimate baptism. That you are not actually a Christian and that you have not been following God. Now again, this does get a little dicey because none of these groups believe baptism is essential for salvation. They believe grace from God is essential for salvation. You have faith and the grace of Christ saves you. But they see baptism as the sign that you've received that grace.

Gerrit Of course, if you reject baptism, then I guess you aren't one of the people that God gave his grace to. But because joining the church, and what sometimes Protestants would call the invisible church or the wider church, it's not about a sect. It's about being a proper Christian, right? When you become a Christian, when you accept that Jesus is your Savior, you join the wider, quote, Christian church. And so then whether I'm a Presbyterian or a Methodist, it makes no difference. I'm still saved by Jesus. I've still accepted Jesus. Now, of course, they claim that those two things don't matter at all, and yet some of the funnest things in the world to do is listen to a Presbyterian and a Methodist preacher in a debate. All that matters is we have faith. All that matters is we have faith. This person's teaching false doctrine because he's not teaching the right way of prevenient grace, right? I mean, that kind of stuff. But these Anabaptists were adamant.

Gerrit No. A confession of faith has to be made when you are cognizant, when you're an adult. It cannot be when you're a child. There's a lot of reasons that infant baptism is important in these early European states. I mean, think of the problem as a leader of a country if you are trying to use the church as a way to buttress power and stability in the country, and people don't become members of that church when they're born. But they just aren't members of it. Well, that can undermine all kinds of things because not only is the church saying, hey, you need to support the monarchy, the church is also receiving taxes from the government in order to fund itself. Well, it's a real problem if you've got a bunch of people that aren't a part of that but are a part of your nation. So the practice of infant baptism, which was already going on in Catholicism, it doesn't skip a beat for even radical reformers like Martin Luther, like John Calvin, like John Knox, who's the founder of the Presbyterian Church.

Gerrit They see infant baptism as being biblical. And again, part of the reason why you don't have to put too fine a point on it is ultimately, baptism is not what saves you. Ultimately, faith saves you, right? So arguing about the proper way to baptize is a fun argument for high theology, but it's not something that will determine whether or not someone is saved or not saved. Now, a Catholic wouldn't say the same thing. A Catholic would say, no, baptism is essential for salvation. You have to have that along with grace and works. You have to have all those things. Well, for these Anabaptists, they argued, no, all baptisms that were done when someone was an infant, which was nearly all baptisms in Europe at the time, they were illegitimate baptisms.

Gerrit All of these people who are running around who think they are Christians, who think that they've made a sign to God because they were baptized, they aren't really Christians. Anabaptists were also pacifists. Many of them also rejected all authority that wasn't God. And so I'm going to reject the king and his authority because you should have no one in front of you but God. And I don't recognize the king's authority. I don't recognize God's authority. Anabaptists were not popular, is what I'm trying to say.

Richard You don't say.

Gerrit Yeah. And they, it's funny, they are hated by everyone.

Richard Well, so, yeah, so let me get this straight. I think I can kind of piece this together why they might be hated. Hey, I know you think you're saved. You're going to hell. Hey, we don't recognize any government. I don't, I don't, you know, I think I can piece together why they're...

Gerrit Hey, I'm not going to fight in your war because you aren't a real king because the only real king is God. So, so Anabaptists are thoroughly hated. And it actually culminates in a huge debacle in Germany, in Westphalia, in Western Germany, in Munster, which is a city there, where Anabaptists, these radical Protestants, gained control of the city. Like they won the election of the city offices. It's not like they went in and stormed the city. They won the election. And what did they do? They expelled all the Catholics from the city. Well, the bishop of Munster, he organized a bunch of forces, and the Lutherans, local Lutheran Germans, as well as Catholic Germans, all go put this Anabaptist city under siege, right? So there was only one thing that could unify Catholics and Lutherans in the 1500s, and it was how much they hated Anabaptists.

Richard And that's only because the Mormons didn't exist yet.

Gerrit Well, look, so we actually had a friend tell us this week who served a mission in Germany that people accused them of being Anabaptists because Latter-day Saints believe, because of Doctrine and Covenants, Section 22, that you have to be re-baptized. So we read Doctrine and Covenants, Section 22, and we don't bat an eye at it. Well, yeah, of course you got to be baptized and join the church. Yeah, that's the way you do it. Everybody's joined a church. I don't know why we become a Jersey mobster. The moment we join the church, we become a mobster. That's why. Everybody knows that. Yeah, you know, you got to get baptized. That's what you got to do. But that's because you're a Latter-day Saint. That's because you have always associated baptism not only with this first ordinance that's essential for salvation, but you've also always associated it with church membership.

Gerrit But that's not actually the case for these early churches. And it's actually still not even the case today. When you talk about baptism, let me go to, I'm going to go to Presbyterian Church USA. Okay, so this is one of the larger Presbyterian Church sects in the United States. This is today, by the way. So this is, you know, there's going to be some differences, but it's basing it on rules that have been in place for a long time. Baptism, I'm quoting them, baptism is received only once. There are many times in worship, however, when believers acknowledge the grace of God continually at work. As they participate in the celebration of another's baptism, as they experience the sustaining nurture of the Lord's Supper, and as they reaffirm the commitments made at baptism, they confess their ongoing need of God's grace and pledge anew their obedience to God's covenant in Christ.

Gerrit The point is to determine exactly why is the person asking for a rebaptism. Is it that they do not believe that they've been legitimately baptized? And then it points to the Church's Book of Order where it says, we receive the good news that as there is one body, there is one baptism. The Presbyterian Church USA recognizes all baptism with water in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit administered by other Christian churches. Now you're going to love this though. Guess what? There's a caveat. A parenthetical. What do you think that says in that parenthetical?

Richard I can't even...

Gerrit No, you've got to love it.

Richard Okay, I'm sure I will.

Gerrit Look, we accept all baptisms administered by other Christian churches. Parenthetical. For those coming to the church having been baptized by Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses or other questionable sects see the other available information concerning those quote unquote churches.

Richard Well, that's... So first of all, top billing. That's great. We were first in that.

Gerrit We did beat the Jehovah's Witnesses out. That wasn't with our actual name. Again, I am not on like... I'm not on like a subreddit of Presbyterianism. I'm on presbyterianmission.org, the Presbyterian Church USA. This is the actual Presbyterian Church. Although it would be hilarious if there was someone just typing that in there right now, changing the website while I'm on it. Someone's hacked in. But yeah, so...

Richard That's great.

Gerrit For those coming to the church baptized by Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, or any other question, we'll say, well, that's different, because they weren't actually baptized into the Christian Church. A very good example of how, even though the Protestant Reformation is so incredibly radical, and it changes so much, it's pretty hard to see any similarities between a hardcore Presbyterian and a Catholic. They still have one thing in common, and that is, they accept those early Christian creedal statements. And why are Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons questionable sex? Because we don't accept the Council of Nicaea. We don't accept Trinitarian theology. Neither do Jehovah's Witnesses. And so you couldn't possibly have been baptized into the Christian Church, because we've decided a Christian Church means anyone who accepts the Nicene Creed. This kind of harkens all the way back to that podcast we did quite a long time ago about whether or not Mormons were Christians.

Gerrit And if you want to find out, you're going to have to go listen to that podcast, accidentally sign up for the premium content, and probably a tour while you're there. And then you can find out whether or not you're a Christian. But that, this, so very specifically, it's important to understand that for a Presbyterian then and now, almost everyone's baptized as an infant. That doesn't make them members of the church. For a Presbyterian, what makes you a member of the church is that you attend the church, you feel a call to this grace, and you express that and a desire to be a part of it. It's more than just not being baptized, because that Presbyterian minister was probably baptized as an infant, right? Now, apparently Alvin wasn't, but joining the church was much, much, much more than just getting baptized, because almost every Presbyterian convert had already been baptized as an infant, and they were not re-baptized to join Presbyterianism.

Gerrit If you were once an Episcopalian or an Anglican, member of the Church of England in America, which a lot of Americans were early on, and you became a Presbyterian, they didn't re-baptize you because you've already been baptized. You were always part of Christ Church. You were just believing wrong parts of its theology, and Presbyterianism is more accurate, more accurate representation of the proper theology. But the fact that you had accepted Jesus as an Anglican means you were still saved. God still gave you that grace. So I think that that's actually something that I've never actually heard anyone really focus on before. I think what happens is we hear Joseph talking about how stunned he is to see Alvin in the celestial kingdom because D&C 76 says you have to be baptized into the church of the firstborn to go there. Joseph says, how could he have gone there without being baptized?

Gerrit And then we mix it with this Reverend Stockton story where Reverend Stockton says Alvin wasn't a member of the church. And we say, well, the only way you become a member of the church is to get baptized. And so we actually, we fuse both stories together to where it is the, the preacher saying Alvin was never baptized. So therefore he's in hell. The preacher, look, if William Smith is remembering correctly, which he might not. And of course, William Smith is completely jaded by Latter-day Saint Theology. Even though he leaves our church, he is a prominent member of the Reorganized Church who still were teaching that baptism is essential. So maybe that's playing with it as well. But if what William Smith says is a real representation of what Reverend Stockton said at Alvin's funeral, it's entirely likely that he didn't mention Alvin being baptized at all. That what he mentioned was Alvin clearly must not have been predestined to salvation.

Gerrit Had he been, had God chosen before he ever created Alvin to save him and then placed him in this Christian nation where there are Bibles falling off the back of trucks everywhere, then certainly Alvin, by the time he was 25, would have felt the call to grace that would have led him to join probably the Presbyterian Church, but some other church. I mean, don't you have to ask the question? If Lucy's felt the call to be a Presbyterian and Sophronia has felt the call to be a Presbyterian and Hiram's felt the call to be a Presbyterian and Samuel's felt the call to be a Presbyterian, why hasn't Alvin? He's the oldest of those kids. So why hasn't he felt the call? Well, he hasn't felt the call because God never intended to save him. Now, that's pretty, look, I'm not defending this guy. That's a pretty rough thing to give as a funeral sermon, right?

Gerrit I don't know that, you know, anyone's ever like, you know what, I'm going to give the eulogy. Well, I can tell you about Bill, the adulterer. He, don't shed a tear on that guy. He's a real problem. But so the, I think that, that what's going on more is this manifestation that for someone who believes in predestined salvation, if someone dies and leaves this earth, and they don't appear to have felt this, this powerful call to grace and a way that you manifest that call is by joining yourself to the Christian church, well, then they're most likely not safe. It's interesting that Father Smith's response is a much more works-based response, right? He's trying to tell me that Alvin went to hell because he didn't join a church, but Alvin was a good boy, right?

Gerrit Father Smith's response is you think he wasn't called to grace because he didn't line up to give you money in your church? I think he was saved by grace because of who he was.

Richard So, Gerrit, this brings up a scripture that we read a certain way in the New Testament, Mark 16, 16, and a verse that Christians read, read the same verse, and we both say C, it defends our argument, right? So, I remember the first time this happened to me, you know, he who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned. I'm paraphrasing generally, but we would say, see, look, baptism is required for salvation, and they would say, well, if you believe, then you are. Yeah, you believe that you are baptized, and if you don't believe, baptism isn't mentioned in the second part. I remember that it was one of the biggest frustrations, me not understanding that point that you're making on my mission was a great source of frustration because we were talking past each other and not understanding what the other was saying.

Gerrit Now, of course, Latter-day Saints, they have that ambiguity removed by the Lord in the Book of Mormon when the Lord completes the second half of that, when he speaks to the Nephites and says, and whosoever believeth and is baptized shall be saved, and whosoever believeth not and is not baptized shall be damned. So the Lord actually, he completes that couplet on the other end when he's speaking to the Nephites. But I think all of this really stems from the fact that for Latter-day Saints, we are unique among non-Catholics. Part of the reason why we aren't very good Protestants is we're unique in believing that baptism is an essential ordinance, not just what we do, not just as a signifier. Look, I am not trying to denigrate this. Look, people freaked out in Europe at the Anabaptists. They slaughtered Anabaptists by the hundreds and by the thousands.

Gerrit In fact, if you go to Munster today, you can still see hanging from the church the three cages that the bodies of the leaders of the Anabaptist rebellion there were kept in after they were murdered and hung on the side of the church. Don't worry, they only left the bodies in there for 50 years. As a warning, hey, don't be an apostate. Yeah, next time be okay with people's baptism. So it's actually a very radical part of Protestantism. Now, of course, we do all know of the Baptist sect, and they are going to be similar. They are similar going to say you have to be baptized as an adult to show that you've made this commitment to Jesus. By the time Baptists come around, though, the world has gone forward another 200 years.

Gerrit And while Baptists are hated and treated like garbage in several places, most especially, you want to know where Baptists were treated the worst? In America?

Richard Massachusetts.

Gerrit No, in the American South, actually. In the American South, well, I mean, okay, initially...

Richard Well, here in Maine, I mean...

Gerrit Initially, when they're kicking Roger Williams out, is that what you... They don't kill Roger Williams?

Richard Okay, well, I guess my bar was too low. It needs to be to murder.

Gerrit For religious bigotry? Yeah, that bar. You're trying to figure out where people are religiously bigoted.

Richard Murder.

Gerrit Yeah, that bar has got to be buried somewhere on the plains. I mean, it is low. It is a low bar. Yeah, Roger Williams is kicked out of Massachusetts Bay Colony for not accepting the congregational spirits and church structure. But the American South today, we think of it as like the land of evangelical Christians and Baptists, but in early America, it is very Anglican. It's settled by people who are members of the Church of England. Episcopalianism is the religion of the upper class in the South at the time. And so Baptists struggle, and some of them are beaten. Baptists are treated poorly. There are tarring and featherings. Baptists are thrown in jail. There is a lot of problem in the 1700s with Baptists in America. But there's a reason why our friend had some well-read Germans telling him that you Mormons are a bunch of Anabaptists.

Gerrit We don't agree with Anabaptists on the things that they believe. I'm not saying that we are a bunch of Mennonites. Mennonites, by the way, are major Anabaptists. But we do believe that you have to be rebaptized. And our rebaptism goes even beyond what other Christian groups who accept rebaptism go. Because for us, baptism is essential both to be a member of the Church and as something that's essential for salvation. For these other Protestant groups, most of them, you join the group through other means, not baptism, because baptism is done once. If it's done when you're a baby, you're baptized. So hopefully that helps answer that question. I know that one thing that we love to do is to dive into William Smith questions. He's our favorite. But we will see you again next week where we will answer another question of oppressing nature.

Gerrit So thank you so much.

Baptism Required for Salvation

Chapters

Transcript

Quote board

Source shelf

Martin Harris's test of the seer stone (as retold on air)

Doctrine and Covenants 137

Doctrine and Covenants 76

William Smith interview, published January 1894 in the RLDS paper Zion's Ensign and reprinted in the Deseret News

Presbyterian Church (USA), presbyterianmission.org, on baptism and the Book of Order

Presbyterian Church (USA), the parenthetical on questionable sects

Doctrine and Covenants 22

Mark 16:16

3 Nephi 11:33-34

Episode quiz

How did Richard attend Gerrit's Zoom fireside for missionaries in Spain?

Fun with Numbers

From 1823 to 1950

Percentages said on air

Putting numbers to words

What this episode talks about more than usual

Names said most

Signature words

More from this episode

Claim check

Take it to class

Banter bin

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

In General Conference

Go deeper

Baptism Required for Salvation

Not talking about Kansas

Martin Harris's test of the seer stone (as retold on air)

Doctrine and Covenants 137

Doctrine and Covenants 76

William Smith interview, published January 1894 in the RLDS paper Zion's Ensign and reprinted in the Deseret News

Presbyterian Church (USA), presbyterianmission.org, on baptism and the Book of Order

Presbyterian Church (USA), the parenthetical on questionable sects

Doctrine and Covenants 22

Mark 16:16

3 Nephi 11:33-34

How did Richard attend Gerrit's Zoom fireside for missionaries in Spain?

From 1823 to 1950

Percentages said on air

Putting numbers to words

What this episode talks about more than usual

Names said most

Signature words