Tune in, and we'll let you know when and how, and also how much food storage you need to stockpile.
Standard of Truth · Season 3 · Episode 4 · 58:15
Who Are the Two Prophets Who Die in Jerusalem?
The idea that the two witnesses of Revelation 11 are Enoch and Elijah shows up in the Gospel of Nicodemus, an old apocryphal text where they greet the dead saints Jesus brings out of hell.
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The question ·
Brother Madsen stated or states that the information we have from Joseph Smith Jr. indicates that he understood the two prophets lying dead in the streets to be Elijah and Enoch. Is there any type of documentation that would verify this statement?
Derek (listener)
Derek applies to replace Richard as co-host, then asks about a 1977 BYU talk where Truman Madsen said Joseph Smith understood the two prophets slain in Jerusalem to be Elijah and Enoch. Gerrit and Richard share their love of Madsen's cassette tapes before Gerrit reads Revelation 11. He traces the Enoch-and-Elijah idea to Jewish tradition and the apocryphal Gospel of Nicodemus, then shows how big both prophets are in Joseph's revelations and sermons. D&C 77:15 confirms two literal prophets but never names them, so Gerrit says it shouldn't hinge anyone's faith. He closes by saying the real question isn't when Jesus comes, but whether we are ready if we die tomorrow.
Who comes upElijahEnochTruman G. MadsenJoseph SmithNicodemusPontius PilateBruce R. McConkie
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The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag
The first listener email of the episode, read on air.
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334 moments · tap a time to play from thereIntro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.
Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. In this week's podcast, we are going to talk about prophets slain in Jerusalem, but before we get to that.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. In this week's podcast, we are going to talk about prophets slain in Jerusalem, but before we get to that.
Gerrit Boy, what a teaser.
Gerrit Boy, what a teaser.
Richard Yes, yes, we know who they are.
Richard Yes, yes, we know who they are.
Gerrit Tune in, and we'll let you know when and how, and also how much food storage you need to stockpile.
Gerrit Tune in, and we'll let you know when and how, and also how much food storage you need to stockpile.
Richard We're gonna start with a couple of emails that we have here, this one, the subject line, job application.
Richard We're gonna start with a couple of emails that we have here, this one, the subject line, job application.
Gerrit Job application.
Gerrit Job application.
Richard Yes, dear Doc.
Richard Yes, dear Doc.
Gerrit So we've, do we put a job search out there?
Gerrit So we've, do we put a job search out there?
Richard Well, he wants to replace me, which is, it makes sense.
Richard Well, he wants to replace me, which is, it makes sense.
Gerrit You know what, I'm ready to hear Derek out.
Gerrit You know what, I'm ready to hear Derek out.
Richard Yeah, actually, so am I, he makes a lot of good points. I will keep your titles as to not misspell your names. First, I would like to send this application to replace Richard as the co-host, as was announced several episodes back. I have absolutely no qualifications, but I feel that as the podcast has no reason to be as successful as it is, I should be able to do fine myself in adding quips and bad jokes.
Richard Yeah, actually, so am I, he makes a lot of good points. I will keep your titles as to not misspell your names. First, I would like to send this application to replace Richard as the co-host, as was announced several episodes back. I have absolutely no qualifications, but I feel that as the podcast has no reason to be as successful as it is, I should be able to do fine myself in adding quips and bad jokes.
Gerrit So.
Gerrit So.
Richard That's a direct shot.
Richard That's a direct shot.
Gerrit You know, one of the worst parts about Derek's opening paragraph is, who says we're successful?
Gerrit You know, one of the worst parts about Derek's opening paragraph is, who says we're successful?
Richard Well, that's not the worst part to me.
Richard Well, that's not the worst part to me.
Gerrit Yeah, as successful as we are.
Gerrit Yeah, as successful as we are.
Richard Quips and bad jokes.
Richard Quips and bad jokes.
Gerrit That's a reference to you though, not me, I think.
Gerrit That's a reference to you though, not me, I think.
Richard Well, of course it is.
Richard Well, of course it is.
Gerrit That's why he's trying to replace you.
Gerrit That's why he's trying to replace you.
Richard All kidding aside, I just wanted to mention how much this podcast has strengthened myself and my testimony, especially when I was at a pretty low point in my life, a point that has actually lasted several years. I had been inactive for some time, not due to a lack of faith, but other personal issues. I'm in the military and after a divorce I've spent several years, and it kind of goes on talking about some of the difficulty that he had experienced. I came across your podcast during July of 2022. I have not stopped listening to it. I always listen to an episode as I drive my sons back to their mother's house on Sunday afternoon after church. Usually the two of them will fall asleep nearly instantly as soon as I get on the freeway.
Richard All kidding aside, I just wanted to mention how much this podcast has strengthened myself and my testimony, especially when I was at a pretty low point in my life, a point that has actually lasted several years. I had been inactive for some time, not due to a lack of faith, but other personal issues. I'm in the military and after a divorce I've spent several years, and it kind of goes on talking about some of the difficulty that he had experienced. I came across your podcast during July of 2022. I have not stopped listening to it. I always listen to an episode as I drive my sons back to their mother's house on Sunday afternoon after church. Usually the two of them will fall asleep nearly instantly as soon as I get on the freeway.
Gerrit Like most of our listeners.
Gerrit Like most of our listeners.
Richard That's right.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard That's right.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard That's right. That's our demo, by the way.
Richard That's right. That's our demo, by the way.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard Children falling asleep as they enter the freeway.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard Children falling asleep as they enter the freeway.
Gerrit Well, if you remember, we had a sweet lady who'd written into us who'd said that we make her one-year-old go to sleep constantly, right? No, the one-year-old was forced to listen to the podcast. So yeah, I mean, I feel-
Gerrit Well, if you remember, we had a sweet lady who'd written into us who'd said that we make her one-year-old go to sleep constantly, right? No, the one-year-old was forced to listen to the podcast. So yeah, I mean, I feel-
Richard We don't know the age of Derek's children here, but we can only assume.
Richard We don't know the age of Derek's children here, but we can only assume.
Gerrit Well, I feel like he has the ability to take their agency away by making them listen to us. So there's that.
Gerrit Well, I feel like he has the ability to take their agency away by making them listen to us. So there's that.
Richard We would really help us out, Derek, if you purchase for them their own individual devices and download those on.
Richard We would really help us out, Derek, if you purchase for them their own individual devices and download those on.
Gerrit Right, we're just trying to drive downloads.
Gerrit Right, we're just trying to drive downloads.
Richard But as much as I listen to the podcast, I have noticed more and more brief moments of consciousness from the two. Nowadays, there are even minutes on end where they will be awake and listening, especially when we came across the Mountain Meadow Massacre episode. Now there is a point to me saying all of that. I also listened to a podcast hosted by a pretty famous retired Navy SEAL and Leadership Development Consultant. I was listening to an episode where he was interviewing an individual who claimed to have a lot of knowledge on the Civil War, and both were giving history of it. Being somewhat of a history enthusiast myself, I know one when I see one, or in this case, hear one. The interviewee was speaking very informal and had so many verbal pauses that I began to doubt if this person was a teacher of history. I paused the podcast and turned to my oldest son, who was sitting next to me and told him how I felt. Quote, I don't think this guy has a history degree and probably just read a ton of books on the Civil War and knows a ton of facts. Just listen to the way he is talking. And not once has he even given a single source to anything he has mentioned.
Richard But as much as I listen to the podcast, I have noticed more and more brief moments of consciousness from the two. Nowadays, there are even minutes on end where they will be awake and listening, especially when we came across the Mountain Meadow Massacre episode. Now there is a point to me saying all of that. I also listened to a podcast hosted by a pretty famous retired Navy SEAL and Leadership Development Consultant. I was listening to an episode where he was interviewing an individual who claimed to have a lot of knowledge on the Civil War, and both were giving history of it. Being somewhat of a history enthusiast myself, I know one when I see one, or in this case, hear one. The interviewee was speaking very informal and had so many verbal pauses that I began to doubt if this person was a teacher of history. I paused the podcast and turned to my oldest son, who was sitting next to me and told him how I felt. Quote, I don't think this guy has a history degree and probably just read a ton of books on the Civil War and knows a ton of facts. Just listen to the way he is talking. And not once has he even given a single source to anything he has mentioned.
Richard There's another podcast I listened to from a doctor in history called The Standard of Truth. Oh, we know, you do? Yes, you listen to it every Sunday. That was some great acting on my part, by the way, is I had the back and forth. I really put you in the back seat of the car.
Richard There's another podcast I listened to from a doctor in history called The Standard of Truth. Oh, we know, you do? Yes, you listen to it every Sunday. That was some great acting on my part, by the way, is I had the back and forth. I really put you in the back seat of the car.
Gerrit I kind of feel like our listeners won't be able to, they'll just assume that Derek's talking to himself. Could you?
Gerrit I kind of feel like our listeners won't be able to, they'll just assume that Derek's talking to himself. Could you?
Richard I feel like I nailed that.
Richard I feel like I nailed that.
Gerrit I hope you could have less inflection. I did, I did, I did. Please bring your emotion down while you're reading this email.
Gerrit I hope you could have less inflection. I did, I did, I did. Please bring your emotion down while you're reading this email.
Richard I feel like I really nailed that. I really captured the vision.
Richard I feel like I really nailed that. I really captured the vision.
Gerrit You're demonstrating why Derek needs to replace you. Demonstrating it right now.
Gerrit You're demonstrating why Derek needs to replace you. Demonstrating it right now.
Richard After some clarification, he let it be known that it wasn't a bad thing, but that he knew and had been listening to the episode as well. This podcast has been able to... This podcast and being able to understand the history of the church using actual sources has helped me to see it for what it is, a real church with real history, not just a bunch of myths that were taught in primary. I know that I have gained much in the way of a testimony because of it, but I also feel that it has helped my sons as well and with their own knowledge of the Prophet Joseph Smith and other prophets and teachings. In this last year of regaining activity in the church, there have been a lot of things that have come together for myself and my sons. And this podcast has definitely been one of those things to help. Thank you so much for the time and effort to give us half good quality entertainment and learning full of self-deprecating jokes and what has finally allowed me to understand townships and the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.
Richard After some clarification, he let it be known that it wasn't a bad thing, but that he knew and had been listening to the episode as well. This podcast has been able to... This podcast and being able to understand the history of the church using actual sources has helped me to see it for what it is, a real church with real history, not just a bunch of myths that were taught in primary. I know that I have gained much in the way of a testimony because of it, but I also feel that it has helped my sons as well and with their own knowledge of the Prophet Joseph Smith and other prophets and teachings. In this last year of regaining activity in the church, there have been a lot of things that have come together for myself and my sons. And this podcast has definitely been one of those things to help. Thank you so much for the time and effort to give us half good quality entertainment and learning full of self-deprecating jokes and what has finally allowed me to understand townships and the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.
Richard I will definitely invest in the premium goods as you have a dedicated listener in me.
Richard I will definitely invest in the premium goods as you have a dedicated listener in me.
Gerrit That is just beautiful. I mean, first of all, the half good quality, I mean, at least we rated half.
Gerrit That is just beautiful. I mean, first of all, the half good quality, I mean, at least we rated half.
Richard Yeah, I've always considered us like 1 16th quality. By the way, we have joked about having a premium episode of just about the Guadalupe Treaty.
Richard Yeah, I've always considered us like 1 16th quality. By the way, we have joked about having a premium episode of just about the Guadalupe Treaty.
Other We're gonna do the Mexican War and primarily the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.
Other We're gonna do the Mexican War and primarily the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.
Richard Yeah, that'll drive people to it.
Richard Yeah, that'll drive people to it.
Gerrit The people cry out. The people cry out, yep, they cry out, as my brother says.
Gerrit The people cry out. The people cry out, yep, they cry out, as my brother says.
Richard This was a very sweet email.
Richard This was a very sweet email.
Gerrit Yeah, and thank you so much, Derek, for letting us know. I mean, obviously, we receive some emails where people are unhappy with-
Gerrit Yeah, and thank you so much, Derek, for letting us know. I mean, obviously, we receive some emails where people are unhappy with-
Richard We don't read them, obviously.
Richard We don't read them, obviously.
Gerrit Well, most of the-
Richard Well, we don't read them on the podcast.
Gerrit Well, most of the-
Richard Well, we don't read them on the podcast.
Gerrit This is a bad time to let the listeners know that we don't know how to read.
Gerrit This is a bad time to let the listeners know that we don't know how to read.
Richard It was obvious the way I read that email that we don't know how to read.
Richard It was obvious the way I read that email that we don't know how to read.
Gerrit A lot of times when we get angry emails, they're from people who haven't even listened to the podcast at all. For instance, I remember we got one angry email from someone who said, the standard of truth question mark, question mark, question mark. So are you gonna even tell them that Joseph Smith told multiple accounts of the First Vision? To which I emailed back and said, actually, that was one of our first episodes where we went through all of the accounts of the First Vision and described the circumstances in which they were received. I'm always stunned that people will either comment on something on Facebook or they'll email, like that's a lot of effort to go look up an email and email it without even one time listening to what it even is, right? I care enough to let you know, and just so everyone listening knows, I've been told that I'm going to be going to hell if we're believing in the wrong Jesus. And that's a lot of effort you're gonna take, but not spend even a minute listening to the podcast.
Gerrit A lot of times when we get angry emails, they're from people who haven't even listened to the podcast at all. For instance, I remember we got one angry email from someone who said, the standard of truth question mark, question mark, question mark. So are you gonna even tell them that Joseph Smith told multiple accounts of the First Vision? To which I emailed back and said, actually, that was one of our first episodes where we went through all of the accounts of the First Vision and described the circumstances in which they were received. I'm always stunned that people will either comment on something on Facebook or they'll email, like that's a lot of effort to go look up an email and email it without even one time listening to what it even is, right? I care enough to let you know, and just so everyone listening knows, I've been told that I'm going to be going to hell if we're believing in the wrong Jesus. And that's a lot of effort you're gonna take, but not spend even a minute listening to the podcast.
Gerrit So.
Gerrit So.
Richard That is, we do have another email before. What does Joseph Smith say about going to hell?
Richard That is, we do have another email before. What does Joseph Smith say about going to hell?
Gerrit Well, it's great because Joseph teaches that, of course, hell doesn't really exist. And so Joseph, as he's talking about his constantly being condemned to hell, he says, I have no fear of hell that don't exist. And that's because of doctrine comes in section 76, right? That teaches that while we will suffer for the sins that we refuse to repent for, the Protestant idea of hell, this idea of a place of never ending burning and suffering for eternity doesn't actually exist. We suffer in the spirit world, but then we will be resurrected and we'll go to a kingdom of glory and happiness and bliss. And so yeah, Joseph, people told him that he was going to hell all the time and his rejoinder was, well, jokes on you, there isn't one.
Gerrit Well, it's great because Joseph teaches that, of course, hell doesn't really exist. And so Joseph, as he's talking about his constantly being condemned to hell, he says, I have no fear of hell that don't exist. And that's because of doctrine comes in section 76, right? That teaches that while we will suffer for the sins that we refuse to repent for, the Protestant idea of hell, this idea of a place of never ending burning and suffering for eternity doesn't actually exist. We suffer in the spirit world, but then we will be resurrected and we'll go to a kingdom of glory and happiness and bliss. And so yeah, Joseph, people told him that he was going to hell all the time and his rejoinder was, well, jokes on you, there isn't one.
Richard So that's it. So next time, and there will be a next time, someone tells you to go to hell population you. It's a dominion of bliss. Thank you very much.
Richard So that's it. So next time, and there will be a next time, someone tells you to go to hell population you. It's a dominion of bliss. Thank you very much.
Gerrit Just tell them, you know what?
Gerrit Just tell them, you know what?
Richard Tip of the cap and I'm on my way.
Richard Tip of the cap and I'm on my way.
Gerrit So, but I really appreciate that. I mean, it's really the whole reason why we did the podcast. Our early champion to do it, the person who basically forced us to do it, Brady, our friend who I think forced me to do it by getting together the intro.
Gerrit So, but I really appreciate that. I mean, it's really the whole reason why we did the podcast. Our early champion to do it, the person who basically forced us to do it, Brady, our friend who I think forced me to do it by getting together the intro.
Richard Oh, he fronted a bunch of money to buy this equipment and do this stuff. And he's like, look, stuff just showed up at your house.
Richard Oh, he fronted a bunch of money to buy this equipment and do this stuff. And he's like, look, stuff just showed up at your house.
Gerrit He did, and he said, I guess you have to do it now because then I would have felt guilty. I mean, I realized that we will never, I mean, apparently according to last episode, we have one listener who's Parawan adjacent. And I think we had a listener at one point in Australia and we're never gonna be super popular in part because maybe this is a little bit quirky and I'm obviously not a household name. Richard might be, but I'm not. Oh, yes, I am. But the whole goal is exactly what you're getting from it, Derek. And that is we wanna try to answer some of these questions about church history, but examining them through an eye of faith and also through an eye of what the sources are. And frankly, that's where my faith comes from, that I don't believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet in spite of the things that I've read. I believe that Joseph Smith is a prophet because of the Holy Spirit and building on that with all the things that I've read.
Gerrit He did, and he said, I guess you have to do it now because then I would have felt guilty. I mean, I realized that we will never, I mean, apparently according to last episode, we have one listener who's Parawan adjacent. And I think we had a listener at one point in Australia and we're never gonna be super popular in part because maybe this is a little bit quirky and I'm obviously not a household name. Richard might be, but I'm not. Oh, yes, I am. But the whole goal is exactly what you're getting from it, Derek. And that is we wanna try to answer some of these questions about church history, but examining them through an eye of faith and also through an eye of what the sources are. And frankly, that's where my faith comes from, that I don't believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet in spite of the things that I've read. I believe that Joseph Smith is a prophet because of the Holy Spirit and building on that with all the things that I've read.
Gerrit And so I really appreciate it. I wish you the best with your learning growth. Look, we're all learning and growing. I mean, everyone listening here is trying to find their way back to Jesus. So we're all there. Really appreciate you taking the time to send us that kind email. And we promise at some point we will talk about townships and Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo again.
Gerrit And so I really appreciate it. I wish you the best with your learning growth. Look, we're all learning and growing. I mean, everyone listening here is trying to find their way back to Jesus. So we're all there. Really appreciate you taking the time to send us that kind email. And we promise at some point we will talk about townships and Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo again.
Richard So the next email that actually is going to lead to the discussion that we have today comes and it's about Brother Truman G. Madsen. And so before I read the email, I would just like to say how much I love Truman Madsen.
Richard So the next email that actually is going to lead to the discussion that we have today comes and it's about Brother Truman G. Madsen. And so before I read the email, I would just like to say how much I love Truman Madsen.
Gerrit Yeah. Well, so we both do. I mean, I would say that now Truman Madsen is not the reason why I have a testimony of Joseph Smith or started studying about him because that came for me before I listened. When did I first start listening to Truman Madsen? Like many people listening right now, if you are in our age demographic and you aren't just one of Derek's children being forced to listen to this in a car, what was on my mission? What about you?
Gerrit Yeah. Well, so we both do. I mean, I would say that now Truman Madsen is not the reason why I have a testimony of Joseph Smith or started studying about him because that came for me before I listened. When did I first start listening to Truman Madsen? Like many people listening right now, if you are in our age demographic and you aren't just one of Derek's children being forced to listen to this in a car, what was on my mission? What about you?
Richard I know it was the same. In fact, part of our friendship came in Logan, Utah, as we would quote lines from Truman Madsen. He had a very unique way of speaking. It was very fun to listen to.
Richard I know it was the same. In fact, part of our friendship came in Logan, Utah, as we would quote lines from Truman Madsen. He had a very unique way of speaking. It was very fun to listen to.
Gerrit And he was an incredible theologian and a passionate believer. And there are many people listening to this podcast right now who a great deal of what they know about Joseph Smith and their testimony is rooted in what Truman Madsen taught. And he had two different sets of cassettes on the Prophet Joseph Smith. And then he had another one that was less well known, but for Richard and I. Oh, man. That was fantastic. Yeah. I kind of want to go listen to it right now.
Gerrit And he was an incredible theologian and a passionate believer. And there are many people listening to this podcast right now who a great deal of what they know about Joseph Smith and their testimony is rooted in what Truman Madsen taught. And he had two different sets of cassettes on the Prophet Joseph Smith. And then he had another one that was less well known, but for Richard and I. Oh, man. That was fantastic. Yeah. I kind of want to go listen to it right now.
Richard Timeless Questions, Gospel Insights. And by the way, for me, my love, my initial love of Joseph Smith actually did come from those cassette tapes that I bought a cassette player and listened to him on my mission.
Richard Timeless Questions, Gospel Insights. And by the way, for me, my love, my initial love of Joseph Smith actually did come from those cassette tapes that I bought a cassette player and listened to him on my mission.
Gerrit I love them so much that when I realized you couldn't get his talks on CDs, I actually bought a cassette to digital converter, which I'm, I think I'm admitting to a crime at this point.
Gerrit I love them so much that when I realized you couldn't get his talks on CDs, I actually bought a cassette to digital converter, which I'm, I think I'm admitting to a crime at this point.
Richard Yes.
Gerrit Okay. I wasn't selling them, but I was making a copy for my own home use. All rights reserved. Major League Baseball. I don't know what I have to say at this point. If you're a police officer listening, I think it's past the statute of limitations. Just so I could listen to it and then I burned it to a CD. Remember when you burn things to CDs? Does anyone listening remember?
Richard Yes.
Gerrit Okay. I wasn't selling them, but I was making a copy for my own home use. All rights reserved. Major League Baseball. I don't know what I have to say at this point. If you're a police officer listening, I think it's past the statute of limitations. Just so I could listen to it and then I burned it to a CD. Remember when you burn things to CDs? Does anyone listening remember?
Richard We actually brought this up at work that we have some younger kids that are in, we brought up cassettes, we brought up eight tracks, never even heard of them.
Richard We actually brought this up at work that we have some younger kids that are in, we brought up cassettes, we brought up eight tracks, never even heard of them.
Gerrit So they didn't get to have the joy of a Sony Discman with the cassette adapter that you could plug into your cassette player in your car. And then anytime you even thought about hitting a piece of gravel.
Gerrit So they didn't get to have the joy of a Sony Discman with the cassette adapter that you could plug into your cassette player in your car. And then anytime you even thought about hitting a piece of gravel.
Richard And in Idaho, all of the roads.
Richard And in Idaho, all of the roads.
Gerrit All of the roads in Idaho, like Idaho is one of the places that like Armenia and Azerbaijan after the war are like, wow, you guys don't have very good roads. You know what I mean? It's all gravel roads. Everywhere, every address in Shelly is someone saying, here's where you turn off the paved road. That's how you get directions.
Gerrit All of the roads in Idaho, like Idaho is one of the places that like Armenia and Azerbaijan after the war are like, wow, you guys don't have very good roads. You know what I mean? It's all gravel roads. Everywhere, every address in Shelly is someone saying, here's where you turn off the paved road. That's how you get directions.
Richard By the way, the paved road is the freeway.
Richard By the way, the paved road is the freeway.
Gerrit Now it is. Ever since that big JR Simplot come through. Anyway, the anytime you hit a bump, it would skip. And so, but we, we love Truman Madsen. And, you know, I actually, I never got to work or know, but work with him, know him before he passed away personally. But I have worked with and do know his brother Gordon, who's really one of the church's, you know, foremost experts in 19th century legal history. I mean, it's actually, it's hard to say anyone, you know, essentially Gordon Madsen and Jeff Walker and Jack Welch are the, you know, the, the, the, the greatest legal minds there is covering Joseph Smith's legal cases. And, and so, you know, I have had a chance to talk with him before about things, but it's really hard for us to overstate what an impact he had on our life.
Gerrit Now it is. Ever since that big JR Simplot come through. Anyway, the anytime you hit a bump, it would skip. And so, but we, we love Truman Madsen. And, you know, I actually, I never got to work or know, but work with him, know him before he passed away personally. But I have worked with and do know his brother Gordon, who's really one of the church's, you know, foremost experts in 19th century legal history. I mean, it's actually, it's hard to say anyone, you know, essentially Gordon Madsen and Jeff Walker and Jack Welch are the, you know, the, the, the, the greatest legal minds there is covering Joseph Smith's legal cases. And, and so, you know, I have had a chance to talk with him before about things, but it's really hard for us to overstate what an impact he had on our life.
Gerrit And I think it was a couple of things because he had, he was the greatest storyteller in the world. He was the greatest storyteller ever. I mean, he, he told the story in a way that you, you were hanging on every word.
Gerrit And I think it was a couple of things because he had, he was the greatest storyteller in the world. He was the greatest storyteller ever. I mean, he, he told the story in a way that you, you were hanging on every word.
Richard And he would, he would pause in just the right spot.
Richard And he would, he would pause in just the right spot.
Gerrit So you'll notice we don't pause ever. No, we talk too fast. We talk over each other. We don't have a train delivery and we're not very good teachers, but he, he had, you know, what they call the pregnant pause where he'd be like, and that's the reason why he can't stop. And then all of a sudden you're like, what, what, why? What's the reason why?
Gerrit So you'll notice we don't pause ever. No, we talk too fast. We talk over each other. We don't have a train delivery and we're not very good teachers, but he, he had, you know, what they call the pregnant pause where he'd be like, and that's the reason why he can't stop. And then all of a sudden you're like, what, what, why? What's the reason why?
Richard There, there's a, there's a couple that we, that we, that we like the one from timeless questions, gospel insights of you can never step in the same river once.
Richard There, there's a, there's a couple that we, that we, that we like the one from timeless questions, gospel insights of you can never step in the same river once.
Gerrit Yep.
Richard Very, very good pause. The river's always flowing, always moving.
Gerrit Yep.
Richard Very, very good pause. The river's always flowing, always moving.
Gerrit But anyway, he, he just had a brilliant mind. He was a philosopher. He was a devoted disciple. Um, his, his wife, um, Anne, uh, taught in our department, um, taught for the religion department at BYU, uh, up until this past year when she, when she finally passed away and it was, you know, it was seeing her what always, every time I saw her brought back to mind my treasuring of those cassettes when I was on my mission and I got this powerful testimony of Joseph Smith being reiterated by someone coming from this academic position. And frankly, I, you know, I don't have the ability to carry water for Truman Madsen. Like I, uh, he was a much more brilliant mine than, than mine. Um, and he was doing all that he was doing without any of the digital resources that I have, none of them, right?
Gerrit But anyway, he, he just had a brilliant mind. He was a philosopher. He was a devoted disciple. Um, his, his wife, um, Anne, uh, taught in our department, um, taught for the religion department at BYU, uh, up until this past year when she, when she finally passed away and it was, you know, it was seeing her what always, every time I saw her brought back to mind my treasuring of those cassettes when I was on my mission and I got this powerful testimony of Joseph Smith being reiterated by someone coming from this academic position. And frankly, I, you know, I don't have the ability to carry water for Truman Madsen. Like I, uh, he was a much more brilliant mine than, than mine. Um, and he was doing all that he was doing without any of the digital resources that I have, none of them, right?
Gerrit I, you know, you know, it hasn't always been like this, but now I can get on josephsmithpapers.org and read every single thing that Joseph Smith wrote, said, and did. And I can do it with a search function that helps me find it. He was doing this when you had to cobble together 25 different books and go to a bunch of archives and get them to see if they'll let you copy a letter and have that information. I mean, he was an incredible religious educator, and I'm grateful for everything he did for me in the gospel.
Gerrit I, you know, you know, it hasn't always been like this, but now I can get on josephsmithpapers.org and read every single thing that Joseph Smith wrote, said, and did. And I can do it with a search function that helps me find it. He was doing this when you had to cobble together 25 different books and go to a bunch of archives and get them to see if they'll let you copy a letter and have that information. I mean, he was an incredible religious educator, and I'm grateful for everything he did for me in the gospel.
Richard So the email is actually referencing a talk that he gave at Brigham Young University on June 5th of 1977.
Richard So the email is actually referencing a talk that he gave at Brigham Young University on June 5th of 1977.
Gerrit Now, let me just set the tone a little bit. I was born a year later. Right. Yeah, so this talk was delivered while I was in the spirit world.
Gerrit Now, let me just set the tone a little bit. I was born a year later. Right. Yeah, so this talk was delivered while I was in the spirit world.
Richard Brother Madsen stated that the information we have...
Richard Brother Madsen stated that the information we have...
Gerrit This is from the email.
Gerrit This is from the email.
Richard So this is from the email. Yes. Thank you, Gerrit. Derek, you need to take this job.
Richard So this is from the email. Yes. Thank you, Gerrit. Derek, you need to take this job.
Gerrit Derek, at least come sit in. We'll put a third microphone out. Let's see how you do.
Gerrit Derek, at least come sit in. We'll put a third microphone out. Let's see how you do.
Richard Brother Madsen stated or states that the information we have from Joseph Smith Jr. indicates that he understood the two prophets lying dead in the streets to be Elijah and Enoch. Is there any type of documentation that would verify this statement?
Richard Brother Madsen stated or states that the information we have from Joseph Smith Jr. indicates that he understood the two prophets lying dead in the streets to be Elijah and Enoch. Is there any type of documentation that would verify this statement?
Gerrit Now, that is a very brief email, right? I mean, not even fully explaining the topic, but I guess, you know, D believes that we would just know where it is. And of course, it's a reference to the two prophets that are mentioned in the Book of Revelation that is something that Latter-day Saints look at in an apocalyptic sense, right? That this will be the Second Coming. In fact, if we just go, I can read it real quick. Revelation chapter 11. Talking about how Jerusalem in the last days will be surrounded by this army, but the court, which is without the temple, leave out and measure it not, for it is given unto the Gentiles. This is verse 2. And the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. So this is that where we get that understanding of three and a half years. You hear people say that, right? Forty two months, three and a half years.
Gerrit Now, that is a very brief email, right? I mean, not even fully explaining the topic, but I guess, you know, D believes that we would just know where it is. And of course, it's a reference to the two prophets that are mentioned in the Book of Revelation that is something that Latter-day Saints look at in an apocalyptic sense, right? That this will be the Second Coming. In fact, if we just go, I can read it real quick. Revelation chapter 11. Talking about how Jerusalem in the last days will be surrounded by this army, but the court, which is without the temple, leave out and measure it not, for it is given unto the Gentiles. This is verse 2. And the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. So this is that where we get that understanding of three and a half years. You hear people say that, right? Forty two months, three and a half years.
Gerrit And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand and two hundred and three score days clothed in sackcloth. Now it's going to go on to talk about how powerful these prophets are. These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth and devour their enemies. And if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. These have power to shut heaven that it rained not in the days of their prophecy and have power over water to turn them to blood and to smite the earth with all plagues as often as they will. And when they have finished their testimony, the beasts that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them and shall overcome them and kill them. And their bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, where our Lord was crucified.
Gerrit And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand and two hundred and three score days clothed in sackcloth. Now it's going to go on to talk about how powerful these prophets are. These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth and devour their enemies. And if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. These have power to shut heaven that it rained not in the days of their prophecy and have power over water to turn them to blood and to smite the earth with all plagues as often as they will. And when they have finished their testimony, the beasts that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them and shall overcome them and kill them. And their bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, where our Lord was crucified.
Gerrit And they of the people and kindreds and tongues of the nation shall see their dead bodies three days and a half and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them and make merry and shall send gifts one to another, because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. I've always thought, by the level of wickedness, right, that they are sending each other presents because these two prophets have finally been killed, right? I don't know what you call that, Happy Martyrdom Day, or what do you...
Gerrit And they of the people and kindreds and tongues of the nation shall see their dead bodies three days and a half and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them and make merry and shall send gifts one to another, because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. I've always thought, by the level of wickedness, right, that they are sending each other presents because these two prophets have finally been killed, right? I don't know what you call that, Happy Martyrdom Day, or what do you...
Richard Well, maybe it happens during Christmas time, or...
Richard Well, maybe it happens during Christmas time, or...
Gerrit You know what? That's a, you know what? Now there's going to be an entire offshoot branch of the church where people leave claiming that Jesus is coming on Christmas because of the presents that are given. Let me go back to verse 11. And after three days and a half, the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And then of course you have the earthquake that opens the Second Coming of Jesus coming. So think about this. I mean, these two prophets, the whole world is going to know that they are this problem in Jerusalem and that they'll be killed and everyone will see them dead laying in the streets for three and a half days and then they'll all be resurrected in front of everyone. That's awesome. And so, this has actually been a very big part of millennial literature in Christianity.
Gerrit You know what? That's a, you know what? Now there's going to be an entire offshoot branch of the church where people leave claiming that Jesus is coming on Christmas because of the presents that are given. Let me go back to verse 11. And after three days and a half, the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And then of course you have the earthquake that opens the Second Coming of Jesus coming. So think about this. I mean, these two prophets, the whole world is going to know that they are this problem in Jerusalem and that they'll be killed and everyone will see them dead laying in the streets for three and a half days and then they'll all be resurrected in front of everyone. That's awesome. And so, this has actually been a very big part of millennial literature in Christianity.
Gerrit This is obviously, it's a powerful story even to read right here. Now, of course, some people are going to argue that this is figurative, but for people that are premillennial, people who believe that there will be a great destruction that comes before the Lord comes and then the Lord will wipe out wickedness, this is seen as the precursor event to the Second Coming of Jesus. And ergo, there are always all kinds of questions and comments surrounding this story. And I'm sure most of the listeners, especially Derrick's kids, have had people say things to them like, oh, who do you think the two prophets are going to be? They're going to die.
Gerrit This is obviously, it's a powerful story even to read right here. Now, of course, some people are going to argue that this is figurative, but for people that are premillennial, people who believe that there will be a great destruction that comes before the Lord comes and then the Lord will wipe out wickedness, this is seen as the precursor event to the Second Coming of Jesus. And ergo, there are always all kinds of questions and comments surrounding this story. And I'm sure most of the listeners, especially Derrick's kids, have had people say things to them like, oh, who do you think the two prophets are going to be? They're going to die.
Richard Do you think Derrick's kids have hit that at school on the playground?
Richard Do you think Derrick's kids have hit that at school on the playground?
Gerrit No, I think that it's probably what they just talk about with each other.
Gerrit No, I think that it's probably what they just talk about with each other.
Richard Oh yeah.
Gerrit Yeah, they're playing maybe Switch. They're playing on the Nintendo and hey, who do you think the two prophets are? You know what?
Richard Oh yeah.
Gerrit Yeah, they're playing maybe Switch. They're playing on the Nintendo and hey, who do you think the two prophets are? You know what?
Richard And part of the issue as it relates to Christianity in general is that there are no more prophets in the classic sense.
Richard And part of the issue as it relates to Christianity in general is that there are no more prophets in the classic sense.
Gerrit Right, which actually leads to a question. I remember on my mission multiple times having a pastor from another denomination very aggressively let me know that I would be going to the hell that doesn't exist. And because I believed in the wrong Jesus and that there were no prophets and I would ask them, I would say, you know, I would say, well, don't you believe God could call prophets today? And of course, the answer to that always has to be, of course he could. Well, then why doesn't he? Well, because we don't need them because we already have the Bible. We don't need prophets anymore. And my response would be, well, then why does Revelation chapter 11 say that God is going to call two prophets? So we all agree God is going to call two prophets. How are you going to recognize them if you're so certain that none exist? Well, it won't be Joseph Smith. How could you possibly know?
Gerrit Right, which actually leads to a question. I remember on my mission multiple times having a pastor from another denomination very aggressively let me know that I would be going to the hell that doesn't exist. And because I believed in the wrong Jesus and that there were no prophets and I would ask them, I would say, you know, I would say, well, don't you believe God could call prophets today? And of course, the answer to that always has to be, of course he could. Well, then why doesn't he? Well, because we don't need them because we already have the Bible. We don't need prophets anymore. And my response would be, well, then why does Revelation chapter 11 say that God is going to call two prophets? So we all agree God is going to call two prophets. How are you going to recognize them if you're so certain that none exist? Well, it won't be Joseph Smith. How could you possibly know?
Gerrit Because you're saying that there aren't any of them, at which point they usually shut the door. I was an ineffective missionary.
Gerrit Because you're saying that there aren't any of them, at which point they usually shut the door. I was an ineffective missionary.
Richard Yeah, that didn't work.
Richard Yeah, that didn't work.
Gerrit So you're asking me if on my mission, I converted multiple Protestant pastors.
Gerrit So you're asking me if on my mission, I converted multiple Protestant pastors.
Richard Well, I'm just saying with your smart aleck comment, that didn't break down the walls.
Richard Well, I'm just saying with your smart aleck comment, that didn't break down the walls.
Gerrit So for our listeners, I generally can carry on a very even-keeled conversation with most people. Right up until the point, they begin attacking Joseph Smith and saying lies about him. And then I- Well, as Brigham Young once said, I have made up my mind that I will not let anyone speak of Joseph in my presence except he hears from me. And I'm not Brigham Young, but I don't know why I, at times, am not as- I'm more than willing to have a discussion about what people believe. The moment someone starts in with, well, Joseph Smith is a liar and an adulterer, well then, now let's talk about your sources. Anyway, at any rate, this is a very big- most Christian theologians of talking about the Second Coming have had to deal with this passage because it is so apparent.
Gerrit So for our listeners, I generally can carry on a very even-keeled conversation with most people. Right up until the point, they begin attacking Joseph Smith and saying lies about him. And then I- Well, as Brigham Young once said, I have made up my mind that I will not let anyone speak of Joseph in my presence except he hears from me. And I'm not Brigham Young, but I don't know why I, at times, am not as- I'm more than willing to have a discussion about what people believe. The moment someone starts in with, well, Joseph Smith is a liar and an adulterer, well then, now let's talk about your sources. Anyway, at any rate, this is a very big- most Christian theologians of talking about the Second Coming have had to deal with this passage because it is so apparent.
Gerrit Who are these two prophets going to be? Of course, some people would say, well, this is actually, you know, this is all figurative. None of, you know, Revelation is not a literal destruction of Jerusalem. This is all talking about spiritual bondage. So there aren't really two other prophets. But then there are those other questions, like from the pastor on my mission. Well, who are those prophets going to be? Because I thought God was done calling prophets. So he's done calling prophets, but then he's all of a sudden just going to call two of them. Right? So it would be nice if there was a solution where the two prophets that are killed in the streets in Jerusalem, happen to be people who were already prophets in the past, who never died, like Enoch and Elijah. Now, we're going to play a clip of this talk so you can hear what Truman Madsen is saying in this talk and what the emailer is referencing.
Gerrit Who are these two prophets going to be? Of course, some people would say, well, this is actually, you know, this is all figurative. None of, you know, Revelation is not a literal destruction of Jerusalem. This is all talking about spiritual bondage. So there aren't really two other prophets. But then there are those other questions, like from the pastor on my mission. Well, who are those prophets going to be? Because I thought God was done calling prophets. So he's done calling prophets, but then he's all of a sudden just going to call two of them. Right? So it would be nice if there was a solution where the two prophets that are killed in the streets in Jerusalem, happen to be people who were already prophets in the past, who never died, like Enoch and Elijah. Now, we're going to play a clip of this talk so you can hear what Truman Madsen is saying in this talk and what the emailer is referencing.
Other Some week or two or three before Christ went to Gethsemane and Golgotha, and the Jewish apocalyptic tradition is that those two prophets who are to one day testify in the streets of Jerusalem to prepare the hearts of the Jews to be turned to the prophets, which, by the way, section 98 says, is another facet of Elijah's mission, those two prophets who are to then literally be killed and who will lie in the streets martyrs just prior to the return of Christ. Those two prophets, according to Jewish literature, are Elijah and Enoch. And there is some hint in the writings of Joseph Smith that he too knew of that and knew of it. By inspiration.
Other Some week or two or three before Christ went to Gethsemane and Golgotha, and the Jewish apocalyptic tradition is that those two prophets who are to one day testify in the streets of Jerusalem to prepare the hearts of the Jews to be turned to the prophets, which, by the way, section 98 says, is another facet of Elijah's mission, those two prophets who are to then literally be killed and who will lie in the streets martyrs just prior to the return of Christ. Those two prophets, according to Jewish literature, are Elijah and Enoch. And there is some hint in the writings of Joseph Smith that he too knew of that and knew of it. By inspiration.
Gerrit Okay, so obviously in that clip, Truman Madsen is talking about the importance of Elijah. You can go listen to that entire talk if you want. It's on BYU speeches.
Gerrit Okay, so obviously in that clip, Truman Madsen is talking about the importance of Elijah. You can go listen to that entire talk if you want. It's on BYU speeches.
Richard We'll put the link in.
Richard We'll put the link in.
Gerrit We say that, but we don't ever do anything. We don't do anything we say we're going to do. Which is the reason why, if I say we're not going to talk about polygamy until season 38, at least no one can email and say, why haven't you talked about polygamy yet? Because if I said we were going to do it, we just wouldn't. Although we did talk about it. We talked. We talked tangentially around it. Yeah. And let's address that portion there where he talks about apocalyptic literature that references it being Enoch and Elijah. Now, of course, Elijah is very prominent in Jewish writings. And as you all know, I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here, that Jewish tradition developed that Elijah, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, that he would return on Passover. And Richard, do you still set a goblet of wine for Elijah at the table there?
Gerrit We say that, but we don't ever do anything. We don't do anything we say we're going to do. Which is the reason why, if I say we're not going to talk about polygamy until season 38, at least no one can email and say, why haven't you talked about polygamy yet? Because if I said we were going to do it, we just wouldn't. Although we did talk about it. We talked. We talked tangentially around it. Yeah. And let's address that portion there where he talks about apocalyptic literature that references it being Enoch and Elijah. Now, of course, Elijah is very prominent in Jewish writings. And as you all know, I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here, that Jewish tradition developed that Elijah, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, that he would return on Passover. And Richard, do you still set a goblet of wine for Elijah at the table there?
Richard Well, no, I have. I believe, I don't know if I've joked on this podcast, but we, I've always wanted to start a Jewish deli, call it Elijah, Elijah's. And then when you come in, hey, we need a, how many of you? There's four. Okay. We need a party of five.
Richard Well, no, I have. I believe, I don't know if I've joked on this podcast, but we, I've always wanted to start a Jewish deli, call it Elijah, Elijah's. And then when you come in, hey, we need a, how many of you? There's four. Okay. We need a party of five.
Gerrit Okay. So no matter how many- There's an extra seat every time. Every table has an extra chair.
Gerrit Okay. So no matter how many- There's an extra seat every time. Every table has an extra chair.
Richard It's not very efficient, but it's good for a joke.
Richard It's not very efficient, but it's good for a joke.
Gerrit So it's still a part of Jewish Passover tradition today to set a cup of wine and a place on Passover for Elijah to return. And so there is a heavy amount of literature devoted to that. And it's certainly part of Jewish tradition. In this sense, when he's referencing the apocalyptic traditions that talk about those two prophets, well, of course, the two prophets' prophecy that they will die in Jerusalem, that is a reference to Revelation. So it's actually early Christian, well, it's the Apostle John, right, that's giving the Apocalypse of John the Book of Revelation, where that is going to be given as Elijah and Enoch. And this actually comes from a book that is sometimes referred to as the Acts of Pilate. And more often, I think now, it's called the Gospel of Nicodemus.
Gerrit So it's still a part of Jewish Passover tradition today to set a cup of wine and a place on Passover for Elijah to return. And so there is a heavy amount of literature devoted to that. And it's certainly part of Jewish tradition. In this sense, when he's referencing the apocalyptic traditions that talk about those two prophets, well, of course, the two prophets' prophecy that they will die in Jerusalem, that is a reference to Revelation. So it's actually early Christian, well, it's the Apostle John, right, that's giving the Apocalypse of John the Book of Revelation, where that is going to be given as Elijah and Enoch. And this actually comes from a book that is sometimes referred to as the Acts of Pilate. And more often, I think now, it's called the Gospel of Nicodemus.
Gerrit And that may be what he's referencing when he says early, when he says Jewish apocalyptic literature, the idea of Nicodemus being the one writing. Remember, Nicodemus is the one who comes to Jesus and says, you know, can a man be born again? And can a man be born again? Well, except a man be born of the water and the spirit. That whole discussion, Nicodemus came by night, and then Nicodemus appears again, if you remember. He appears when the Sanhedrin is trying to condemn Jesus, right? And what does Nicodemus say? Doth our law condemn any man before it heareth them? Right? And then they turn on Nicodemus like on a dime and say, you know, are you also of Galilee? Search you and look for out of Galilee a rise of no profit. I'm not reading that, I'm just thinking that. So I'm probably misquoting that.
Gerrit And that may be what he's referencing when he says early, when he says Jewish apocalyptic literature, the idea of Nicodemus being the one writing. Remember, Nicodemus is the one who comes to Jesus and says, you know, can a man be born again? And can a man be born again? Well, except a man be born of the water and the spirit. That whole discussion, Nicodemus came by night, and then Nicodemus appears again, if you remember. He appears when the Sanhedrin is trying to condemn Jesus, right? And what does Nicodemus say? Doth our law condemn any man before it heareth them? Right? And then they turn on Nicodemus like on a dime and say, you know, are you also of Galilee? Search you and look for out of Galilee a rise of no profit. I'm not reading that, I'm just thinking that. So I'm probably misquoting that.
Richard By the way, what did the Gospel of Nicodemus before it went through a kind of a brand, a rebranding, what was it called?
Richard By the way, what did the Gospel of Nicodemus before it went through a kind of a brand, a rebranding, what was it called?
Gerrit It used to be called the Axe of Pilot.
Gerrit It used to be called the Axe of Pilot.
Richard Okay. And so that didn't take off and they went through a rebrand.
Richard Okay. And so that didn't take off and they went through a rebrand.
Gerrit So again, as I talked about in our previous podcast, in the early Christian world, any question that you can think about as far as the beginning or ending part of the story, there was usually someone there to figure it out. So what's a question that people always ask? Do you think that Pilate became a Christian? Right? I mean, he saw this. He realized that he shouldn't have done it. You know, he regretted it. Is he like the centurion who looked up and regretted that Jesus had been crucified? The question of what happens to these people after, I mean, there's a whole gospel of Judas that tries to present everything that happened from Judas' perspective. So Nicodemus is one of these characters that's very interesting in the New Testament because he is one of the leaders in the Sanhedrin, one of the leaders of the people. He doesn't want to openly proclaim Jesus, but he certainly believes that Jesus is from God and even tries to defend him when they're trying to condemn him.
Gerrit So again, as I talked about in our previous podcast, in the early Christian world, any question that you can think about as far as the beginning or ending part of the story, there was usually someone there to figure it out. So what's a question that people always ask? Do you think that Pilate became a Christian? Right? I mean, he saw this. He realized that he shouldn't have done it. You know, he regretted it. Is he like the centurion who looked up and regretted that Jesus had been crucified? The question of what happens to these people after, I mean, there's a whole gospel of Judas that tries to present everything that happened from Judas' perspective. So Nicodemus is one of these characters that's very interesting in the New Testament because he is one of the leaders in the Sanhedrin, one of the leaders of the people. He doesn't want to openly proclaim Jesus, but he certainly believes that Jesus is from God and even tries to defend him when they're trying to condemn him.
Gerrit Well, what do you think happens to Nicodemus after that? And so there's the tradition ascribed to it is that it was actually Nicodemus who wrote this. Now, scholars don't actually believe that Nicodemus wrote this. Now, again, let me be very clear that this is an apocryphal pseudepigrapha. This is a text which someone is purporting to have been all the way back to Pilate and to Nicodemus, right? No scholar believes it's actually back to Nicodemus, and it is simply attributed to him. Nevertheless, the fact that this was in circulation, even though it was never included in the Bible, that tradition becomes a part of some aspects of Christianity. So I think I've had to give a lot of, I've had to give a lot of callouts that just so you know what I'm about to read is not scripture, and I don't believe that it's scripture.
Gerrit Well, what do you think happens to Nicodemus after that? And so there's the tradition ascribed to it is that it was actually Nicodemus who wrote this. Now, scholars don't actually believe that Nicodemus wrote this. Now, again, let me be very clear that this is an apocryphal pseudepigrapha. This is a text which someone is purporting to have been all the way back to Pilate and to Nicodemus, right? No scholar believes it's actually back to Nicodemus, and it is simply attributed to him. Nevertheless, the fact that this was in circulation, even though it was never included in the Bible, that tradition becomes a part of some aspects of Christianity. So I think I've had to give a lot of, I've had to give a lot of callouts that just so you know what I'm about to read is not scripture, and I don't believe that it's scripture.
Gerrit I think we're going to have to come up with a new brand for our podcast.
Gerrit I think we're going to have to come up with a new brand for our podcast.
Richard Yeah, Standard of Truth podcast. We don't believe this.
Richard Yeah, Standard of Truth podcast. We don't believe this.
Gerrit Yeah, Standard of Truth podcast 2023. What we're about to read, we don't believe.
Gerrit Yeah, Standard of Truth podcast 2023. What we're about to read, we don't believe.
Richard But it does help to provide the context to where this comes from.
Richard But it does help to provide the context to where this comes from.
Gerrit Right, because that was the reference that Truman Madsen made that there was writings that allege that Enoch and Elijah were the two prophets. So if you go to chapter 20, as you're following along in your gospel of Nicodemus, and of course there's multiple different translations of this, so it might not read exactly the same because this is coming from a different language. But what is going on in the previous. Chapter is this idea that Jesus, after he dies, what happens, where does Jesus go after he dies? Well, Jesus is going to go to the people that are in prison, right, and preach to them. You get that from Peter. That's where you get this idea that Jesus goes to hell. They call this the harrowing of hell in Christian literature.
Gerrit Right, because that was the reference that Truman Madsen made that there was writings that allege that Enoch and Elijah were the two prophets. So if you go to chapter 20, as you're following along in your gospel of Nicodemus, and of course there's multiple different translations of this, so it might not read exactly the same because this is coming from a different language. But what is going on in the previous. Chapter is this idea that Jesus, after he dies, what happens, where does Jesus go after he dies? Well, Jesus is going to go to the people that are in prison, right, and preach to them. You get that from Peter. That's where you get this idea that Jesus goes to hell. They call this the harrowing of hell in Christian literature.
Gerrit Jesus is going to lead some people out of there, and they're then going to go to heaven. So we start off this chapter with, then the Lord holding Adam by the hand delivered him to Michael the Archangel. So I think we can very quickly state that the Gospel of Nicodemus doesn't exactly follow Latter-day Saint theology. Because the Lord is holding Adam by the hand and delivers him to Michael the Archangel, who we know are the same person. So I don't know if this were true to us, it would be just Adam holding his own hand at this point. But back to the literature. Deliver him to Michael the Archangel, and he led them into paradise, filled with mercy and glory. And two very ancient men met them, and were asked by the saints, who are ye, who have not been with us in hell, and have had your bodies placed in paradise?
Gerrit Jesus is going to lead some people out of there, and they're then going to go to heaven. So we start off this chapter with, then the Lord holding Adam by the hand delivered him to Michael the Archangel. So I think we can very quickly state that the Gospel of Nicodemus doesn't exactly follow Latter-day Saint theology. Because the Lord is holding Adam by the hand and delivers him to Michael the Archangel, who we know are the same person. So I don't know if this were true to us, it would be just Adam holding his own hand at this point. But back to the literature. Deliver him to Michael the Archangel, and he led them into paradise, filled with mercy and glory. And two very ancient men met them, and were asked by the saints, who are ye, who have not been with us in hell, and have had your bodies placed in paradise?
Gerrit So the dead saints, who they've all had to suffer death, and are now being resurrected and brought up to heaven, they see these, who are these two guys? They didn't come in through the bouncer. They didn't suffer like we did. Who are these guys who didn't die? And one of them answering said, I am Enoch, who was translated by the word of God. And this man who is with me is Elijah the Tishbite, who was translated in a fiery chariot. Here we have hitherto been, and have not tasted death, but are now about to return at the coming of Antichrist, being armed with divine signs and miracles to engage with him in battle and to be slain by him at Jerusalem, and to be taken up alive again into the clouds after three days and a half. So this is, this clearly is borrowing from Revelation, right?
Gerrit So the dead saints, who they've all had to suffer death, and are now being resurrected and brought up to heaven, they see these, who are these two guys? They didn't come in through the bouncer. They didn't suffer like we did. Who are these guys who didn't die? And one of them answering said, I am Enoch, who was translated by the word of God. And this man who is with me is Elijah the Tishbite, who was translated in a fiery chariot. Here we have hitherto been, and have not tasted death, but are now about to return at the coming of Antichrist, being armed with divine signs and miracles to engage with him in battle and to be slain by him at Jerusalem, and to be taken up alive again into the clouds after three days and a half. So this is, this clearly is borrowing from Revelation, right?
Gerrit The writer of this Gospel is well aware of the Apocalypse of John or the Book of Revelation, and is saying that directly that Enoch and Elijah are going to be those two prophets. And specifically, why are they going to be those two prophets? Because they were never killed in the first place. And so you can see the reason why in Christian tradition, this works out really well.
Gerrit The writer of this Gospel is well aware of the Apocalypse of John or the Book of Revelation, and is saying that directly that Enoch and Elijah are going to be those two prophets. And specifically, why are they going to be those two prophets? Because they were never killed in the first place. And so you can see the reason why in Christian tradition, this works out really well.
Richard It solves the problem.
Richard It solves the problem.
Gerrit It solves the problem. God doesn't have to call them the two new prophets. He's already got two prophets that haven't been killed yet that he's going to send back down. And it's not hard to believe, you know, as we read in Revelation, that Elijah can have people devoured by fire. I mean, Elijah seems to have the ability to call fire down on places. You know what I mean?
Gerrit It solves the problem. God doesn't have to call them the two new prophets. He's already got two prophets that haven't been killed yet that he's going to send back down. And it's not hard to believe, you know, as we read in Revelation, that Elijah can have people devoured by fire. I mean, Elijah seems to have the ability to call fire down on places. You know what I mean?
Richard I love that he can't shake Tishbite. Like that's how he's described.
Richard I love that he can't shake Tishbite. Like that's how he's described.
Gerrit That's who he is. And what's really weird is how poorly we understand what that even means. There's all kinds of theorizing about what it even means being a Tishbite. But at any rate, this is the reference that he is making that Enoch and Elijah in this apocalyptic writing. Now, the Gospel of Nicodemus is going to be quoted and taken up by other early Christian theologians, and it'll be cited by them. And so it's going to make its way into this kind of early, this early Christian understanding. It's really going to come of age in the Middle Ages is really when it's going to be, it's going to be most repeated and most in circulation. So it's never actually, it's never actually, it's certainly not canonized.
Gerrit That's who he is. And what's really weird is how poorly we understand what that even means. There's all kinds of theorizing about what it even means being a Tishbite. But at any rate, this is the reference that he is making that Enoch and Elijah in this apocalyptic writing. Now, the Gospel of Nicodemus is going to be quoted and taken up by other early Christian theologians, and it'll be cited by them. And so it's going to make its way into this kind of early, this early Christian understanding. It's really going to come of age in the Middle Ages is really when it's going to be, it's going to be most repeated and most in circulation. So it's never actually, it's never actually, it's certainly not canonized.
Gerrit In fact, it may not even have been written before the New Testament canon already takes its shape. It's really difficult text. Even scholars struggle over when, what was this originally written in and when was it written? Obviously, they're going to place it after the writing of the book of Revelation because it's quoting Revelation. And that's how scholars place it. But the second part of what he said was that, you know, that Joseph Smith had said things that might imply that or that, you know, that Joseph might have by inspiration believe that Enoch and Elijah were those two prophets that would come. And I'm not entirely sure that that's what the listener's email is, right? I'm not entirely sure what reference he's talking about there. Elijah is obviously very essential to Joseph Smith. And in fact, it becomes an essential part of Latter-day Saint theology.
Gerrit In fact, it may not even have been written before the New Testament canon already takes its shape. It's really difficult text. Even scholars struggle over when, what was this originally written in and when was it written? Obviously, they're going to place it after the writing of the book of Revelation because it's quoting Revelation. And that's how scholars place it. But the second part of what he said was that, you know, that Joseph Smith had said things that might imply that or that, you know, that Joseph might have by inspiration believe that Enoch and Elijah were those two prophets that would come. And I'm not entirely sure that that's what the listener's email is, right? I'm not entirely sure what reference he's talking about there. Elijah is obviously very essential to Joseph Smith. And in fact, it becomes an essential part of Latter-day Saint theology.
Gerrit When the Doctrine and Covenants is reorganized in 1876, there are some additions that are made to the Doctrine and Covenants from the history of the church. If you recall what section 2 is, it's Moroni talking to Joseph Smith. Well, Moroni says a lot of things to Joseph Smith. He quotes a lot of scriptures to Joseph Smith. But what's the portion that gets canonized in that reorganization? The prophecy about the coming of Elijah, right? The Malachi's prophecy that Elijah will come. You then have section 110, which was in Joseph Smith's journal, this incredible description of Moses, Elias and Elijah appearing and giving Joseph Smith the keys that include the sealing power.
Gerrit When the Doctrine and Covenants is reorganized in 1876, there are some additions that are made to the Doctrine and Covenants from the history of the church. If you recall what section 2 is, it's Moroni talking to Joseph Smith. Well, Moroni says a lot of things to Joseph Smith. He quotes a lot of scriptures to Joseph Smith. But what's the portion that gets canonized in that reorganization? The prophecy about the coming of Elijah, right? The Malachi's prophecy that Elijah will come. You then have section 110, which was in Joseph Smith's journal, this incredible description of Moses, Elias and Elijah appearing and giving Joseph Smith the keys that include the sealing power.
Gerrit Joseph is going to make reference to this power of Elijah over and over. Now, Enoch is going to appear a lot in Joseph Smith's revelations as well. In fact, part of the Book of Moses is, we reference as the Book of Enoch, because it's an account of Enoch in the Book of Moses. And where does that come from? From Joseph Smith's revelation. He has it revealed to him. Enoch also factors pretty prominently, because what are the saints trying to do in Jackson County? They're not trying to get tickets to the Chiefs' playoff game. They are trying to build the city of Zion. And what are they modeling the city of Zion off of? The city of Enoch. And they believe that the city of Enoch will come down from heaven to meet the New Jerusalem here on earth. That it's this kind of joining of these two perfect cities where the saints have finally let go of their sins. They've prepared the world for the Second Coming of Jesus.
Gerrit Joseph is going to make reference to this power of Elijah over and over. Now, Enoch is going to appear a lot in Joseph Smith's revelations as well. In fact, part of the Book of Moses is, we reference as the Book of Enoch, because it's an account of Enoch in the Book of Moses. And where does that come from? From Joseph Smith's revelation. He has it revealed to him. Enoch also factors pretty prominently, because what are the saints trying to do in Jackson County? They're not trying to get tickets to the Chiefs' playoff game. They are trying to build the city of Zion. And what are they modeling the city of Zion off of? The city of Enoch. And they believe that the city of Enoch will come down from heaven to meet the New Jerusalem here on earth. That it's this kind of joining of these two perfect cities where the saints have finally let go of their sins. They've prepared the world for the Second Coming of Jesus.
Gerrit And Enoch, the great prophet, will come back down. So both figures are very prominent in Joseph Smith's writing and literature. Let me give you an example of one of Joseph Smith's discourses where he talks about it. This is from a March 10th, 1844 discourse. This is recorded in Franklin Richard's Journal. The spirit of Elijah is that degree of power, which holds the sealing power of the kingdom, to seal the hearts of the fathers to the children and the children their fathers, not only on earth, but in heaven, both the living and the dead, to each other. For they, the dead, cannot be made perfect without us. The power of Elijah is that of Elias. What in the architecture of the temple of God, those who seal or cement the stone to their places are to those who cut or hew the stones, the one preparing the way for the other.
Gerrit And Enoch, the great prophet, will come back down. So both figures are very prominent in Joseph Smith's writing and literature. Let me give you an example of one of Joseph Smith's discourses where he talks about it. This is from a March 10th, 1844 discourse. This is recorded in Franklin Richard's Journal. The spirit of Elijah is that degree of power, which holds the sealing power of the kingdom, to seal the hearts of the fathers to the children and the children their fathers, not only on earth, but in heaven, both the living and the dead, to each other. For they, the dead, cannot be made perfect without us. The power of Elijah is that of Elias. What in the architecture of the temple of God, those who seal or cement the stone to their places are to those who cut or hew the stones, the one preparing the way for the other.
Gerrit He's saying the example, right? Elijah is an Elias that, just like the stone cutters prepare the stone to be put into the temple for the masons. One to prepare the other for the other to accomplish the work. By this we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise, Elijah. That is one place. I mean, look, there are lots of places I could pull out where Joseph is preaching about Elijah. What's really interesting is there are multiple blessings that Joseph Smith gives that have as a phrase in them this. So here's one of these blessings. You must prepare your minds to bid a long farewell to Kirtland even till the great day come. You will see what you never expected to see. You will need the mind of Enoch or Elijah and the faith of the brother of Jared.
Gerrit He's saying the example, right? Elijah is an Elias that, just like the stone cutters prepare the stone to be put into the temple for the masons. One to prepare the other for the other to accomplish the work. By this we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise, Elijah. That is one place. I mean, look, there are lots of places I could pull out where Joseph is preaching about Elijah. What's really interesting is there are multiple blessings that Joseph Smith gives that have as a phrase in them this. So here's one of these blessings. You must prepare your minds to bid a long farewell to Kirtland even till the great day come. You will see what you never expected to see. You will need the mind of Enoch or Elijah and the faith of the brother of Jared.
Gerrit So again, speaking apocalyptically, certainly Joseph Smith is talking about Enoch coming down with the city of Enoch and Elijah coming to fulfill prophecy. So it factors pretty prominently in several things that Joseph Smith will write. Of course, section 110 is the most prominent one, right? That this is where Joseph Smith is going to receive these keys that allow for the sealing of families together. Now, Brother Madsen made one comment about section 98, saying that there it said that part of Elijah's mission was also to preach to the Jews. If you read that in section 98, it doesn't directly say that.
Gerrit So again, speaking apocalyptically, certainly Joseph Smith is talking about Enoch coming down with the city of Enoch and Elijah coming to fulfill prophecy. So it factors pretty prominently in several things that Joseph Smith will write. Of course, section 110 is the most prominent one, right? That this is where Joseph Smith is going to receive these keys that allow for the sealing of families together. Now, Brother Madsen made one comment about section 98, saying that there it said that part of Elijah's mission was also to preach to the Jews. If you read that in section 98, it doesn't directly say that.
Gerrit This is a revelation that was received right after the saints have been expelled from Jackson County, or they're being driven out of Jackson County. So it's a pretty rough time. This is August 6, 1833, so violence has already broken out. They have not yet all been driven out, but they are told that you are going to get out, and if not, there's going to be some violence that's going to take place. Someday, we'll do an entire thing on Missouri. Will we?
Gerrit This is a revelation that was received right after the saints have been expelled from Jackson County, or they're being driven out of Jackson County. So it's a pretty rough time. This is August 6, 1833, so violence has already broken out. They have not yet all been driven out, but they are told that you are going to get out, and if not, there's going to be some violence that's going to take place. Someday, we'll do an entire thing on Missouri. Will we?
Richard Yeah, I think we will.
Richard Yeah, I think we will.
Gerrit So that one will happen.
Gerrit So that one will happen.
Richard Yeah, that'll happen.
Gerrit Okay. Richard's my handler. I have to check and see whether or not that's going to happen.
Richard Yeah, that'll happen.
Gerrit Okay. Richard's my handler. I have to check and see whether or not that's going to happen.
Richard Well, it is tough. I mean, it's tough to do it in just...
Richard Well, it is tough. I mean, it's tough to do it in just...
Gerrit I would have to soft-pedal the violence that goes on in Missouri. That's part of the problem. And we don't want to soft-pedal things, but we'd have to because of the content is pretty awful. At any rate, if you were to go to verse... Sorry, section 98 and go to verse 16, you can see why he's making that reference. Therefore, renounce war and proclaim peace and seek diligently to turn the hearts of the children to their fathers and the hearts of the fathers to the children. So that's obviously a direct quote from Malachi that Joseph is using there about what Elijah's mission is. And then verse 17, and again, the hearts of the Jews unto the prophets and the prophets unto the Jews, lest I come and smite the whole earth with a curse and all flesh be consumed before me. Now, section 98 does not directly mention Elijah.
Gerrit I would have to soft-pedal the violence that goes on in Missouri. That's part of the problem. And we don't want to soft-pedal things, but we'd have to because of the content is pretty awful. At any rate, if you were to go to verse... Sorry, section 98 and go to verse 16, you can see why he's making that reference. Therefore, renounce war and proclaim peace and seek diligently to turn the hearts of the children to their fathers and the hearts of the fathers to the children. So that's obviously a direct quote from Malachi that Joseph is using there about what Elijah's mission is. And then verse 17, and again, the hearts of the Jews unto the prophets and the prophets unto the Jews, lest I come and smite the whole earth with a curse and all flesh be consumed before me. Now, section 98 does not directly mention Elijah.
Gerrit It doesn't say this is Elijah's other mission that he's going to do it. I think that what Brother Madsen's saying is that's the implication of this, because who is doing the turning of the hearts of the fathers to the children? That quote is directly about Elijah. And so by implication, the person turning the hearts of the Jews unto the prophets and the prophets unto the Jews is also Elijah. So I think that's what that's making a reference to. Now, the question might be asked, well then, does Joseph specifically ever say that Enoch and Elijah are these two prophets who are going to lay in the street? There are very, very, very few times that someone can write in with a question that is almost exactly a question that Joseph Smith was actually asked. And therefore, I can just, I don't have to speculate, I can just read his answer. This is luckily one of those times where Joseph isn't asked who are the prophets that are going to be slain in Jerusalem.
Gerrit It doesn't say this is Elijah's other mission that he's going to do it. I think that what Brother Madsen's saying is that's the implication of this, because who is doing the turning of the hearts of the fathers to the children? That quote is directly about Elijah. And so by implication, the person turning the hearts of the Jews unto the prophets and the prophets unto the Jews is also Elijah. So I think that's what that's making a reference to. Now, the question might be asked, well then, does Joseph specifically ever say that Enoch and Elijah are these two prophets who are going to lay in the street? There are very, very, very few times that someone can write in with a question that is almost exactly a question that Joseph Smith was actually asked. And therefore, I can just, I don't have to speculate, I can just read his answer. This is luckily one of those times where Joseph isn't asked who are the prophets that are going to be slain in Jerusalem.
Gerrit But there is an important aspect of this. Now, while you're already in your Doctrine and Covenants, right? Everybody's...
Gerrit But there is an important aspect of this. Now, while you're already in your Doctrine and Covenants, right? Everybody's...
Richard Well, if they're not in the Gospel of Pilate or possibly Nicodemus.
Richard Well, if they're not in the Gospel of Pilate or possibly Nicodemus.
Gerrit Yeah, right now, I guarantee they're in the Gospel of Nicodemus. But if you are in your Doctrine and Covenants, you're going to want to go to section 77 of your Doctrine and Covenants. Turn there. Verse 15. And this is a series of questions and answers that are going to be canonized as a section of the Doctrine and Covenants where Joseph is apparently being asked questions about the Book of Revelation, and he is providing answers. And verse 15, one of those questions is incredibly relevant to this question. What is to be understood by the two witnesses in the 11th chapter of Revelation? Answer. They are two prophets that are to be raised up to the Jewish nation in the last days at the time of the restoration, and to prophesy to the Jews after they are gathered and have built the city of Jerusalem in the land of their fathers. So there is a lot of prophetic nature in all of this.
Gerrit Yeah, right now, I guarantee they're in the Gospel of Nicodemus. But if you are in your Doctrine and Covenants, you're going to want to go to section 77 of your Doctrine and Covenants. Turn there. Verse 15. And this is a series of questions and answers that are going to be canonized as a section of the Doctrine and Covenants where Joseph is apparently being asked questions about the Book of Revelation, and he is providing answers. And verse 15, one of those questions is incredibly relevant to this question. What is to be understood by the two witnesses in the 11th chapter of Revelation? Answer. They are two prophets that are to be raised up to the Jewish nation in the last days at the time of the restoration, and to prophesy to the Jews after they are gathered and have built the city of Jerusalem in the land of their fathers. So there is a lot of prophetic nature in all of this.
Gerrit Now, first of all, remember I said one of the ways that Christians have dealt with that book of Revelation portion is that it's completely figurative, right? That there is no actual two prophets. That's just a way of talking about it. But clearly, Joseph is saying, no, they really are two prophets. There are two prophets, they are to be raised up to the Jewish nation in the last days. Now, it doesn't make any reference to who it is. By implication for me, I would say that had Joseph known that it was Enoch and Elijah, at this point, that's probably where he would drop that information. And the idea of being raised up to suggests, at least rhetorically, that they aren't already prophets to the Jewish nation, which certainly Elijah was, and Enoch was a forebearer. I don't think we know that per se. And Truman Madsen isn't saying in that talk, absolutely that's what it is, right?
Gerrit Now, first of all, remember I said one of the ways that Christians have dealt with that book of Revelation portion is that it's completely figurative, right? That there is no actual two prophets. That's just a way of talking about it. But clearly, Joseph is saying, no, they really are two prophets. There are two prophets, they are to be raised up to the Jewish nation in the last days. Now, it doesn't make any reference to who it is. By implication for me, I would say that had Joseph known that it was Enoch and Elijah, at this point, that's probably where he would drop that information. And the idea of being raised up to suggests, at least rhetorically, that they aren't already prophets to the Jewish nation, which certainly Elijah was, and Enoch was a forebearer. I don't think we know that per se. And Truman Madsen isn't saying in that talk, absolutely that's what it is, right?
Gerrit He's saying that there are people who have said that it is. This is not something that should hinge our faith one way or the other, I don't think. What exactly the full mission of Elijah and Enoch are. I think for us, we know that there will be two prophets that will be a part of that winding up scene, preparing the world for the Second Coming. What have modern prophets said about it? Just really not very much. I mean, Bruce R. McConkie in Doctrines of Salvation, I think is what it is. He says that undoubtedly these will be people that are members of the Quorum of the Twelve or apostles. But even there, he's essentially speculating. And I think that's actually pretty good evidence that were it stated in any categorical way, Elder McConkie would have restated what had been stated categorically. So I don't think we really know.
Gerrit He's saying that there are people who have said that it is. This is not something that should hinge our faith one way or the other, I don't think. What exactly the full mission of Elijah and Enoch are. I think for us, we know that there will be two prophets that will be a part of that winding up scene, preparing the world for the Second Coming. What have modern prophets said about it? Just really not very much. I mean, Bruce R. McConkie in Doctrines of Salvation, I think is what it is. He says that undoubtedly these will be people that are members of the Quorum of the Twelve or apostles. But even there, he's essentially speculating. And I think that's actually pretty good evidence that were it stated in any categorical way, Elder McConkie would have restated what had been stated categorically. So I don't think we really know.
Gerrit And I think that we get questions like this a lot because people really are wondering what are the signs of the times. And while that's a fun thing to speculate on, and really you're in good company if you're someone speculating on it because it's literally the thing Joseph Smith prayed about his entire life. He so badly wanted to know when the Second Coming was going to be. He prayed about it. He asked about it. He wanted. He talked about it all the time. But he never got the answer of exactly when it was going to be. And I think it's just always important to remember that no matter what you think is a further evidence that we are just that much closer to the Second Coming. I mean, Richard's wife went to Walmart today trying to buy some Valentine candy, and there was nothing there. And I think she thinks that's one step closer to.
Gerrit And I think that we get questions like this a lot because people really are wondering what are the signs of the times. And while that's a fun thing to speculate on, and really you're in good company if you're someone speculating on it because it's literally the thing Joseph Smith prayed about his entire life. He so badly wanted to know when the Second Coming was going to be. He prayed about it. He asked about it. He wanted. He talked about it all the time. But he never got the answer of exactly when it was going to be. And I think it's just always important to remember that no matter what you think is a further evidence that we are just that much closer to the Second Coming. I mean, Richard's wife went to Walmart today trying to buy some Valentine candy, and there was nothing there. And I think she thinks that's one step closer to.
Richard It certainly is a sign.
Richard It certainly is a sign.
Gerrit The fifth rider of the apocalypse came storming out of the store. But you know, you hear people say things like, well, we're that much closer. Well, by definition, we're always one day closer to the Second Coming of Jesus. But of that day or hour, no man knoweth, not even the angels that are in heaven, not even the son, but the father only, according to the scriptures. So I very much believe we need to prepare for the Second Coming of Jesus. But that preparation isn't by trying to pull out a Da Vinci Code style, you know, X marks the spot treasure map to where we're just living and believing the right coded message before we find out who Jesus, when Jesus is coming. Instead, it's living the gospel of Jesus Christ. If we want to be the city of Enoch, we want to meet them as they come down.
Gerrit The fifth rider of the apocalypse came storming out of the store. But you know, you hear people say things like, well, we're that much closer. Well, by definition, we're always one day closer to the Second Coming of Jesus. But of that day or hour, no man knoweth, not even the angels that are in heaven, not even the son, but the father only, according to the scriptures. So I very much believe we need to prepare for the Second Coming of Jesus. But that preparation isn't by trying to pull out a Da Vinci Code style, you know, X marks the spot treasure map to where we're just living and believing the right coded message before we find out who Jesus, when Jesus is coming. Instead, it's living the gospel of Jesus Christ. If we want to be the city of Enoch, we want to meet them as they come down.
Gerrit Well, then we're going to have to start loving each other more than we care about ourselves. And just that alone, look at this world. How many people do you know who truly care about other people more than they care about themselves? They want to make other people look good more than they want to make themselves look good. They want to make other people happy in spite of their own misery. They want to bring people happiness even if they themselves are not happy. There are some of those people out there, but I think everyone listening would agree. We got a long way to go before we are the city of Zion. I'm not even close. I won't even be allowed to open the door to get into the city of Zion. I'm not just jovial when I shouldn't be. I'm also a sinner. I want to follow the things that God wants me to do, and yet I'm not able to do it.
Gerrit Well, then we're going to have to start loving each other more than we care about ourselves. And just that alone, look at this world. How many people do you know who truly care about other people more than they care about themselves? They want to make other people look good more than they want to make themselves look good. They want to make other people happy in spite of their own misery. They want to bring people happiness even if they themselves are not happy. There are some of those people out there, but I think everyone listening would agree. We got a long way to go before we are the city of Zion. I'm not even close. I won't even be allowed to open the door to get into the city of Zion. I'm not just jovial when I shouldn't be. I'm also a sinner. I want to follow the things that God wants me to do, and yet I'm not able to do it.
Gerrit Obviously, I have the ability to do it, but I don't. And so I have to constantly repent and try to become better. So really, the question is not when is the Second Coming. The question is, if you die tomorrow, are you ready for Jesus? Because as I said before, either he's coming here or you're going there. But the one is a certainty. At some point in your life, you are going to die and you are going to meet Jesus, unless you happen to be Enoch or Elijah. Well, if you're counting on being translated to avoid death, I don't think that's a very safe bet. I feel like you should probably be betting, at least hedging on the bangles to be able to cover the spread before you hedge on whether or not you are going to be translated. But the reality of death is something that everyone will at some point encounter.
Gerrit Obviously, I have the ability to do it, but I don't. And so I have to constantly repent and try to become better. So really, the question is not when is the Second Coming. The question is, if you die tomorrow, are you ready for Jesus? Because as I said before, either he's coming here or you're going there. But the one is a certainty. At some point in your life, you are going to die and you are going to meet Jesus, unless you happen to be Enoch or Elijah. Well, if you're counting on being translated to avoid death, I don't think that's a very safe bet. I feel like you should probably be betting, at least hedging on the bangles to be able to cover the spread before you hedge on whether or not you are going to be translated. But the reality of death is something that everyone will at some point encounter.
Gerrit And that when that happens, we will eventually meet our Lord and we'll be going to Him. And so I realize that we take some comfort by being able to read the signs of the times and see the things that are going on. But I say take the most comfort in what your prophet, your current prophet has to say about it. Do all of the things that he is telling you to do. If you find that President Nelson is encouraging you to do something and you aren't doing it, you don't need to go back and read through the Gospel of Nicodemus to figure out what it is you should be doing. You can read through their last conference report and see what it is you should be doing. The best part about having a prophet is we don't have to stagger around in the dark, wondering whether or not we need to do X or we need to do Y. We will know because our prophet will tell us.
Gerrit And that when that happens, we will eventually meet our Lord and we'll be going to Him. And so I realize that we take some comfort by being able to read the signs of the times and see the things that are going on. But I say take the most comfort in what your prophet, your current prophet has to say about it. Do all of the things that he is telling you to do. If you find that President Nelson is encouraging you to do something and you aren't doing it, you don't need to go back and read through the Gospel of Nicodemus to figure out what it is you should be doing. You can read through their last conference report and see what it is you should be doing. The best part about having a prophet is we don't have to stagger around in the dark, wondering whether or not we need to do X or we need to do Y. We will know because our prophet will tell us.
Gerrit I don't need to figure out when I need to book my plane ticket to Jackson County because when that time comes, the prophet is going to tell us to go to Jackson County. So we need to live the Gospel of Jesus Christ every day like it's our last day because it might just be. And then if we're alive tomorrow, praise God and try to serve him a little bit more. So thank you so much for that question and hopefully not too many of Derek's children fell asleep during this discussion. But yes, all of them.
Gerrit I don't need to figure out when I need to book my plane ticket to Jackson County because when that time comes, the prophet is going to tell us to go to Jackson County. So we need to live the Gospel of Jesus Christ every day like it's our last day because it might just be. And then if we're alive tomorrow, praise God and try to serve him a little bit more. So thank you so much for that question and hopefully not too many of Derek's children fell asleep during this discussion. But yes, all of them.
Richard All of them.
Richard All of them.
Gerrit Okay, thank you so much. Thank you so much.
Gerrit Okay, thank you so much. Thank you so much.
Quote board
Make a share card from any lineChildren falling asleep as they enter the freeway.
I believe that Joseph Smith is a prophet because of the Holy Spirit and building on that with all the things that I've read.
Yeah, so this talk was delivered while I was in the spirit world.
Because you're saying that there aren't any of them, at which point they usually shut the door. I was an ineffective missionary.
Yeah, Standard of Truth podcast 2023. What we're about to read, we don't believe.
Well, then we're going to have to start loving each other more than we care about ourselves.
So really, the question is not when is the Second Coming. The question is, if you die tomorrow, are you ready for Jesus?
The best part about having a prophet is we don't have to stagger around in the dark, wondering whether or not we need to do X or we need to do Y.
Source shelf
18 sources cited on air · verses link to the scriptures, Joseph Smith’s documents to the Joseph Smith Papersletter
Derek, listener email ("Job application")
I have absolutely no qualifications, but I feel that as the podcast has no reason to be as successful as it is, I should be able to do fine myself in adding quips and bad jokes.
Derek applies to replace Richard, then shares how the podcast helped him and his sons return to church activity.
sermon
Joseph Smith on hell (source not named on air)
I have no fear of hell that don't exist.
Joseph's reply to being told he was going to hell.
revelation
D&C 76
Why Latter-day Saints reject a never-ending Protestant hell.
other
Truman G. Madsen's cassette lectures on Joseph Smith, and "Timeless Questions, Gospel Insights"
Both hosts listened to them on their missions, and Gerrit converted his to digital.
scripture
Revelation 11:2-11
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand and two hundred and three score days clothed in sackcloth.
The two witnesses who prophesy, die in Jerusalem's streets, and rise after three and a half days.
sermon
Brigham Young on defending Joseph (source not named on air)
I have made up my mind that I will not let anyone speak of Joseph in my presence except he hears from me.
Gerrit's reason he loses his even keel when people attack Joseph Smith.
sermon
Truman G. Madsen, BYU devotional, June 5, 1977 (BYU Speeches)
Those two prophets, according to Jewish literature, are Elijah and Enoch.
The clip Derek asked about; Madsen says Jewish literature names Elijah and Enoch as the two prophets, with some hint in Joseph Smith's writings.
scripture
John 3:5; John 7:50-52
Doth our law condemn any man before it heareth them?
Nicodemus comes by night and later defends Jesus before the Sanhedrin; Gerrit admits he's quoting from memory (identified, not cited on air).
book
Gospel of Nicodemus (also called the Acts of Pilate), chapter 20
I am Enoch, who was translated by the word of God. And this man who is with me is Elijah the Tishbite, who was translated in a fiery chariot.
An apocryphal text that names Enoch and Elijah as the two who will be slain in Jerusalem; Gerrit stresses it isn't scripture.
revelation
D&C 2
Moroni's quotation of Malachi's prophecy about Elijah, canonized in the 1876 reorganization.
revelation
D&C 110
Moses, Elias and Elijah give Joseph the keys, including the sealing power; first recorded in Joseph's journal.
scripture
Book of Moses (the Enoch account)
Enoch's story revealed to Joseph, and the model for the city of Zion in Jackson County.
sermon
Joseph Smith discourse, March 10, 1844, recorded in Franklin D. Richards's journal
The spirit of Elijah is that degree of power, which holds the sealing power of the kingdom
Joseph on the spirit and power of Elijah and the sealing power.
record
A blessing given by Joseph Smith in Kirtland (recipient not named on air)
You will need the mind of Enoch or Elijah and the faith of the brother of Jared.
One of several blessings that use the phrase about Enoch or Elijah.
revelation
D&C 98:16-17
and again, the hearts of the Jews unto the prophets and the prophets unto the Jews
The verses Madsen meant: they echo Malachi on Elijah, though section 98 never names Elijah.
revelation
D&C 77:15
They are two prophets that are to be raised up to the Jewish nation in the last days at the time of the restoration
Joseph's answer about the two witnesses: real prophets raised up to the Jews, but not named.
book
Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrines of Salvation (title given tentatively on air)
Elder McConkie suggests the two will be apostles, which Gerrit calls speculation.
scripture
Matthew 24:36; Mark 13:32
But of that day or hour, no man knoweth, not even the angels that are in heaven, not even the son, but the father only
No one knows the day or hour of the Second Coming (identified, not cited on air).
Episode quiz
Pass to stamp your passportQuestion 1 of 8Score 0
What was the subject line of Derek's email?
Fun with Numbers
This episode, counted from its transcript58:15long
19.4 minbefore the topic starts
18sources read or named
9scripture passages
4different years mentioned
0dollar amounts said
From 1833 to 1977
Every year mentioned in the episode. Tap one to jump to it.
Putting numbers to words
All 9,131 words of the automatic transcript, counted against a word list for each theme. It shows how much a theme comes up, not what was said about it. See the lists
What this episode talks about more than usual
- Prophets and priesthood61 mentions, 3.8 times the show’s usual rate
- Death and the afterlife42 mentions, 3.1 times the show’s usual rate
- Mobs, jail and violence13 mentions, 1.7 times the show’s usual rate
Names said most
Joseph counts any Joseph.
Joseph 47Jesus Christ 27Brigham Young 3Moroni 2
Signature words
Said often here and in few other episodes.
Madsen 16cassette 8Pilate 4apocalyptic 6hearts 7replace 4
More from this episode
Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.
Claim check
What critics say, and what the episode foundJoseph Smith taught that the two prophets slain in Jerusalem will be Enoch and Elijah.
The two witnesses in Revelation 11 are just a figure of speech.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.
Take it to class
Ready to copy into a lesson or a textD&C 77:15 says the two witnesses of Revelation 11 are real prophets raised up to the Jewish nation in the last days, but it doesn't say who they are.
The idea that Enoch and Elijah are the two witnesses comes from the Gospel of Nicodemus, an apocryphal text, not from scripture or Joseph Smith.
The best preparation for the Second Coming isn't decoding signs but living the gospel and doing what the living prophet asks.
To become like the city of Enoch, we have to start loving each other more than we care about ourselves.
Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.
Banter bin
The running jokes, for people who skip aheadDerek wants Richard's jobA co-host application with no qualifications, and Richard's dramatic reading proves Derek's point (1:04-1:23, 4:55-5:13, callback 18:53).
Our demo: sleeping kidsDerek's sons fall asleep as soon as he hits the freeway, like most listeners (2:53-2:58, callback 57:26).
Townships and Guadalupe HidalgoDerek finally understands them, and they promise a premium episode on the treaty (5:18, 6:33, 11:11).
Go to hell, population youJoseph's answer to being damned: there isn't one, it's a dominion of bliss (8:37-9:38).
Brady forced usBrady bought the equipment and had it show up at Gerrit's house (9:41-10:08).
Idaho gravel roadsDiscman skips on Idaho roads, where directions start at the end of the paved road, which is the freeway (14:07-14:52).
Cassette piracyGerrit confesses to converting Madsen's cassettes to CD, past the statute of limitations (13:21-13:35).
Episodes promised, never made"We'll put the link in" and an entire Missouri episode that Richard, Gerrit's handler, says will happen (28:57, 46:21-46:53).
Elijah's deliA party of four always gets a table for five (30:02-30:22).
Gospel of Nicodemus rebrandThe Acts of Pilate didn't take off, so it rebranded; plus the new show slogan, "What we're about to read, we don't believe" (32:17-32:31, 34:47).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag
Your question could be next week’s episodeQuestions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
General ConferenceGeneral Conference talks that cite a scripture read in this episode.
In General Conference
Talks from the latest General Conference that cite a scripture this episode reads or names on airOctober 2026 General Conference · cites D&C 76Come to the Lord in His Holy HouseElder Gerrit W. GongElder Gong lays out three doctrinal foundations for temple worship: eternal families, moral agency, and the Holy Spirit of Promise, which makes honored covenants binding.October 2026 General Conference · cites D&C 2The Infinite Power of God in Our CovenantsElder Jeremiah J. MorganElder Morgan grew up in another church that also believes in the Book of Mormon, where his single mother read it to him daily.
Summaries, themes and lessons for every talk are on What Did They Say?
Go deeperWhere to read more.
Go deeper
Deep dives the episode points towardListen to Truman Madsen's full June 5, 1977 BYU devotional on Elijah (28:47).
The harrowing of hell in early Christian literature, and how the Gospel of Nicodemus pictures it (35:00).
D&C 77 as a whole: Joseph's questions and answers about the Book of Revelation (49:21).
How often Joseph's revelations, sermons and blessings pair Enoch and Elijah, from D&C 110 to a Kirtland blessing calling for "the mind of Enoch or Elijah" (44:18).
The city of Enoch and the New Jerusalem, and what Jackson County Saints were trying to build (42:14).
SOT Litner · S3E4.