Hero Worship Part 1

Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.

Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, nearly, nearly PhD, nearly Dr. LeDuc.

Richard Hello, Gerrit. It's, I don't know how near it is. People say that it's very nice, and also it's so, so far away, so close yet so far away.

Gerrit Yeah, I feel like there's a soft rock song that we could be playing in the background.

Richard Yeah, yacht rock. Gerrit, we want to do, jump into the Phebe Draper mailbag. We have an email to read here, and then we wanted to talk a little bit about hero worship. And based on the emails we received, that is not a problem for this podcast.

Gerrit Well, right, sure. I mean, you have to be talented to be someone's hero. You know, speaking of Phebe Draper, I was just down at the Mormon Battalion historic site, and of course, she's one of the few women who made the entire journey with the Mormon Battalion.

Richard That's awesome. Yeah, she was incredible.

Gerrit Yeah, I mean, honestly, she was like the Indiana Jones of female members of the church of her day. I mean, she literally did everything.

Richard Yeah, and then the first postmaster for Draper on top of it.

Gerrit Right, no, it doesn't matter. Whatever it is, she's got it. I've got this. I have a picture of her in my hand, in my mind's eye, of anytime there's a problem, her saying, hold my beer, because it was before the world was totally imposed. I mean, I'm sure she didn't even drink it even then, but I mean, hold my apple cider, and then I'll take care of this, because that's what it seems like how she was.

Richard Well, so this first, well, one email today comes to us from Jennifer, who sends her best wishes. Hi, Gerrit and Richard.

Gerrit I think you need to read the title of this email.

Richard Yes, so the title, the subject is Save My Dog. That's the title. So I listened to your show two times a week. Now, I hope that's because she listens to the premium, but maybe even just listening to the free twice a week. Either way, Jennifer, thank you. Thank you a little bit less, but thank you.

Gerrit You should consider coming with us to Palmyra on one of our tours. Then you can listen to us nonstop, which is probably Protestant hell.

Richard Normally, I don't comment, but your mention of dogs going to heaven touched my pet-loving heart. I never understood the absolute devotion to animals until I got a dog and loved him for 14 years. He had a horrible exit from this world, and it caused me to understand how Joseph and his family initially felt when Alvin passed away. I see no indication that I will see my pet in the next life. The scriptures and modern-day prophets do not comment on this at all, correct? I'll take any hope and correction if there is any. Now, I will say, Jennifer, thank you, and she, again, sends her best wishes. Jennifer, I have a dog.

Gerrit I don't know that you love your dog with the same level of love Jennifer loved hers.

Richard I do not. So I'm allergic to cats, but I'm not allergic to dogs, except I am allergic to our dog for some reason I am. Now, when I was sold, I required, well, so my daughter, who this was three years ago, who was eight at the time, and my son, who was 11 at the time, they put together a PowerPoint presentation on why we should purchase a dog and all of the advantages of a dog. And my sales heart leaped, and it grew three sizes that day.

Gerrit So not because of them, but because of presentation.

Richard They put together a pretty convincing PowerPoint. And what I was sold was is that obviously that they would walk the dog every day, that they would watch after the dog, they would pick up after the dog, they would pick up the poop, they would take it for walks, they would love the dog. I knew that they were lying when they were saying these things. I'm not a complete idiot. But the PowerPoint was very well done, and so we decided to purchase a dog. Now, turns out I'm allergic to this specific dog, and I have to take allergy medicine every morning and every night, otherwise I break out in hives. My son, Andrew, who's in Spain on a mission, made the comment, well, Dad, you know, these things only live 14 or 15 years, so you only have to take the allergy medicine for a little while longer. I was also told that this dog would cost $500. We are now about $25,000 into that $500 dog.

Richard We had to get a fence. I've had to take it to get x-rays multiple times because kids don't close the trash or put it away, and it gets in and eats aluminum, and then we have to have surgery. So my love for the dog is not the same as Jennifer's. I love all of God's creatures in the way that I'm supposed to. But if I was to die and go to heaven and didn't see the dog, I don't know that I'd have the same reaction that Jennifer has. I don't hate the dog. It's very important that I say that. As I've turned off so many listeners who are animal lovers, I think the dog's fine.

Gerrit So you're not going to try to bring that back with like, you know what, but I really do love the, no, it's just, I'm fine with it.

Richard My kids love the dog. I love my kids. I love my, well, sometimes my wife loves the dog and I love her all the time. So there we go.

Gerrit There you go. That's where we had to get. We had to take a little bit of a long journey. You know, this question though, Jennifer is actually a, it's a pretty common question among Christians generally. Now, if we, we recall that, especially among Protestant Christians, for them, the entirety of what you can know is not based upon what makes us feel good. It's based upon what the Bible says. Now, I'm old enough to remember when the movie, All Dogs Go to Heaven came out. Do you remember that movie, Richard?

Richard Oh, it's a classic. Yeah, you bet.

Gerrit Well, I remember that when it came out, there were multiple Christian groups that denounced it for teaching false doctrine. Because in point of fact, all dogs don't go to heaven. Now, what is this based on? It's based on the fact that many Christians have taught. Now, I will say this, just in case Jennifer happens to be a West Virginia snake handler and isn't a member of our church, I don't know why she's listening to our podcast.

Richard We are huge in the BYU. We're huge in the Appalachia. We are huge in former stilleries. We're killing it there.

Gerrit Yeah. And we're really trying to break into that Quebec market. On our premium podcast, we've been pushing and pushing. We've got to get the Quebecois on our side. It's the deciding factor. If this podcast goes off the air in the next six months, it's going to be because we weren't able to get into Quebec. That's very funny. Well, so the way Christians understand animals, right? Now, this is a huge broad brush, okay? You can find a person inside of essentially every faith tradition that would say, at the very least, I really hope that animals will be there with me in heaven, right? You'll certainly find people to say that. If you go to like christianity.com, you know, which is a kind of a hodgepodge, evangelical Christian site, you know, when someone asks the question of, you know, will animals be resurrected? Will I see animals in heaven?

Gerrit They kind of give, well, you know, we only know whatever the Bible says, and the Bible doesn't really say, but we sure hope so. You know, that's the kind of response that you get. There are some Christians who have made, you know, some arguments to the effect that, well, I think there will be, because heaven's, you know, glorious and animals are glorious, and so therefore animals will be there. But my guess is, Jennifer is much more worried about what it is that our church and modern prophets and apostles have taught. This is an interesting thing, because at the time that Joseph Smith will provide some commentary on this, it's at a time when far fewer people even considered whether or not animals would go to heaven or would be resurrected. And this is in part based upon what Christians generally think about our creation.

Gerrit They think that, you know, animals were just created by God as creatures, but that humans are different because they were created in God's image, right? A rhino wasn't created in God's image. So God created them, so they're gods. So that makes them good because God created them. So this is the time when Calvinistic tautological logic works out very much in your favor. If God did it, then they must be good. Except for humans, by the way. Which he created good, but then knowing that they would immediately become bad, and then so bad that they destroy the rest of the world. In fact, one of the commentaries I read on animals said, it's our own sinful nature's fault that animals die because we're the ones who brought death into the world through our sin nature. So frankly, it's our fault when it comes to that. Well, they see the creation of humans as something different.

Gerrit Now, look, Latter-day Saints also see the same thing, that there is a difference between animals and humans. But Latter-day Saints also have this theology that every single thing is created spiritually before it's created temporally, meaning everything has a spirit. Now, that is not standard Christian theology, although you can find some people that will get to that place. Let me give you a little bit more comfort than just me saying it, right? Because no one should believe anything just because I said it. Let's find someone who's of a little bit more authority. Let's go to Doctrine and Covenants, Section 77 in the Doctrine and Covenants. This is a revelation that Joseph Smith receives in relation to the Book of Revelation.

Gerrit And of course, one of the things that's in the Book of Revelation is you have the beasts that were seen in the heavens. And so there are questions that are asked. If you go to 77, it's this question and answer section. What is the Sea of Glass? In fact, we should just read the section heading first. It says Joseph Smith's history states that in connection with the translation of the scriptures, I received the following explanation of the Revelation of St. John. So that's the Book of Revelation. Notice how in the verse interpretation, so the verse summaries that you have right below the section heading, what do you have there? One through four. What is the summary that they decided to put up? Now, this is, of course, the church deciding to provide this summary. What should people get out of these verses?

Gerrit One through four. Beasts have spirits and will dwell in eternal felicity. You can go read it. It's not as clear as all that, but what is the sea of glass spoken of by John in the fourth chapter in 6th verse of Revelation? It is the earth in its sanctified, immortal and eternal state. What are we to understand by the four beasts spoken of in the same verse? They are figurative expressions used by the revelator John in describing heaven, the paradise of God, the happiness of man, and of beasts and of creeping things and fowls of the air, that which is spiritual, being in the likeness of that which is temporal, and that which is temporal, in the likeness of that which is spiritual, the spirit of man in the likeness of his person, and also the spirit of the beast and every other creature which God has created. So in fact, Jennifer, we actually do have scripture that declares that animals have spirits.

Gerrit And in describing heaven and the beasts and creeping things and fouls of the air, we have these animals which are in heaven. Drop down to three, are the four beasts limited to individual beasts, or do they represent classes or orders? They are limited to four individual beasts which were shown to John to represent the glory of the classes of beings in their destined order or sphere of creation in the enjoyment of their eternal felicity. So John's shown four beasts that are actually beasts, and those beasts are in heaven, and so therefore animals have spirits and beasts are going to be in heaven. We can actually go to a sermon that Joseph Smith gives much later, 11 years after this, April 8th, 1843. He gives a sermon in which he says, the beasts which John saw and speaks of as being in heaven were actually living in heaven.

Gerrit This is the plain reading of Revelation. So Joseph, in fact, will provide other commentary that, you know, animals are clearly in heaven because John saw them in heaven. What's really interesting is you can actually find some Christians defending the idea of animals having, you know, some kind of life in heaven because of that same quote in Revelation. Now, for most of Christian history, those beasts in heaven have always been taken just as figuratively. What does the beast mean that John saw in the book of Revelation? And so most Christian commentary on it is going to be, oh, they represent this or they represent that or they represent this. Joseph is going to say they're actual animals that are in heaven. And, you know, the church very recently, I mean, on the Gospel Living, there's, you know, a little, you know, snippet that was put out just a couple of years ago.

Gerrit Again, you can find this on churchofjesuschrist.org under inspiration. And the topic, the title is, Animals Have Spirits Too. It might seem like a minor detail, but there is something truly wonderfully revealed in Doctrine and Covenants, Section 77, animals have spirits too. The beasts and the creeping things and the fowls there were created spiritually first. Their spirit bodies resemble their physical bodies, and they, like us, will enjoy eternal felicity, happiness and joy in their resurrected bodies. So, you know, that is at least what's being taught by the church now. It's certainly what Joseph is teaching. And so I think we actually have a pretty fair leg to stand on that your beloved dog is absolutely going to enjoy eternal felicity, happiness and joy in a resurrected body. And I think that this idea that every being has a spirit, every being that's lived on this, whether they're human or not, has a spirit, allows for us to understand the resurrection and the celestial kingdom as something very different than what a traditional Christian might.

Gerrit And that's all through the revelations coming through the Prophet Joseph Smith. Now, do you feel bad about what you said about your dog, Richard?

Richard No, the dog hasn't done anything. I'm glad that it will receive some sort of bliss. I just wish that I wouldn't break out in hives every time it walked by me. That's all I'm saying.

Gerrit Yeah. I mean, it's a good thing it's the dog and not your kids.

Richard I like the dog more than my kids.

Gerrit Oh, okay. Well, then, you know what? You've got everything coming up, Richard.

Richard No, I'm teasing. I mean, I'm not teasing about everything I said about the dog. The dog's fine. The kids do love the dog and my wife does love the dog. And everyone loves the dog, it's just the dog's trying to kill me. But by its existence? Well, its existence is making my body try to kill myself. But anyway, I thought that that was, I think Jennifer will like that very much, Gerrit. That was really good. The other topic we wanted to discuss, there was a talk in general conference just this week or two ago, whenever this episode comes out.

Gerrit Who said we're not timely and topical? Everyone?

Richard This is the general conference from April of 1989. No, this last general conference, Bishop W. Christopher Waddell gave a talk on more than a hero. He's the first counselor in the presiding bishopric. And Gerrit and I have actually talked about this talk quite, this talk and this topic quite a bit recently, which is when he spoke on this, I thought it was great. And I think that we might want to just use a little bit of a clip here from his talk, and then that will kind of dovetail nicely into what Gerrit here wants to talk about.

Other When I was a young boy, my first heroes were athletes. My earliest memories are collecting baseball cards with the pictures and statistics of Major League Baseball players. Hero worship as a child can be fun and even innocent, such as children dressing up as their favorite superheroes for Halloween. Although we admire and respect many talented and remarkable men and women for their abilities and contributions, the degree to which they are revered, if taken to an excess, can be the equivalent of the children of Israel worshipping a golden calf in the desert of Sinai. As adults, what was once innocent childhood fun can become a stumbling block when hero worship of politicians, bloggers, influencers, athletes, or musicians causes us to look beyond the mark and lose sight of what is truly essential. For the children of Israel, the challenge was not the gold that they brought with them on their journey to the promised land, but rather what they allowed the gold to become, an idol, which then became the object of their worship, turning their attention away from Jehovah, who had parted the Red Sea and delivered them from bondage.

Other Their focus on the calf impacted their ability to worship the true God. The hero, our hero, now and always is Jesus Christ, and anything or anyone that distracts us from his teachings, as found in the scriptures and through the words of living prophets, can negatively impact our progress on the covenant path.

Gerrit Now, what about that clip stuck out to you, Richard, when he gave it?

Richard Well, just the idea, so he talks about how sometimes heroes, people that we revere, that we look up to, that we really like, that they can create stumbling blocks for us. This idea of hero worship for politicians or bloggers, influencers, athletes, musicians, even religious leaders.

Gerrit Perhaps podcasters?

Richard Well, again, we have the safest audience that ain't no hero worshiping going on here.

Gerrit Let's put a disclaimer out there. If anyone listening ever hears me say something and then says, I think President Nelson is wrong about something because of what Gerrit said, just so everyone knows, if I ever did say it, I am wrong. And I was unintentional at it. The most fundamental aspect of this podcast is that we hope we are building faith in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And that church is led by a prophet of God. And there are no if, ands or buts about that. And if the prophet tomorrow were to come out and say, hey, anyone who produces a podcast is clearly an apostate, we wouldn't be producing any more podcasts.

Gerrit I mean, the reality is, whatever he has revealed to him, that's what we're going to follow. So let me just caveat that by the fact that, but I hope there are people who really love the podcast. I think there are some people who just love torturing their children with the podcast. But look, I'm prone to all kinds of errors. I have no keys. I am a middling sort of a person. I might have had experiences and training to help me understand the church's past well, but prophets and apostles receive revelation for the church, not me, right? So never, ever, ever choose me over a prophet for any reason. Not that I even have to give that disclaimer, but...

Richard It's good. And Gerrit, I feel it's important for me to say that I don't even have that historical training. So whatever you've got, I've got several degrees less than that. And now I know that I can't even go to the supermarket without people coming up, just throngs of people.

Gerrit And asking you what your thoughts are on the line on the San Francisco game?

Richard Yes, which again, there's a great sports podcast that I really like to listen to. It's very funny. I enjoy it. And when people write in and they say different things, they have a sounder that says, you don't get the show, right? It's very important that people understand that that is obviously a joke as it relates to the sports stuff. We do not gamble. We're being satirical as we both were raised on sports radio. Local sports Idaho radio, by the way.

Gerrit Yeah, yeah. If you think someone betting on two-wheeled chariots in Buffalo in the middle of winter, if they're degenerate, find someone in Idaho who's a gambler. They're as degenerate as you can get.

Richard But Gerrit, it is great. We're teasing, obviously, but it's a great, great point because what he says that's the best, the hero, our hero, now and always is Jesus Christ. And the problem is that any time that we begin to elevate anyone for any reason, no matter how good or kind or well-intentioned it is, to where then they're raised to the level where if the church was to say something, that we side with the person over the church, it becomes something that can be very dangerous to our testimony.

Gerrit And you know, we could do an entire... I mean, frankly, we could shut this podcast down because we don't have enough hero worship in it, and start an entirely new podcast where the podcast would be called Great Big Elders in Church History. We could do every single week talking about how this phenomena occurred in the early church, and it continues to happen. It happens today. When people are so enamored with someone's experience that they claim to have had, or their seeming deep insight into the Scriptures, that they actually turn away from the very thing that they originally like that person for in the first place. Now, what I mean by that is, let's say you love the church.

Gerrit I hope everyone listening loves the church. Maybe you could be hate listening, I'm assuming. I mean, frankly, even if you love the church, you're probably hate listening. You're probably just like, I can't wait until they say something else that makes me hate them more. In which case, okay, you could try volunteering at a soup kitchen or something, but okay, whatever you want to spend your time doing, if you want to hate listen. But we could have a listener who very sincerely loves the church. And so they start listening to a bunch of podcasts like this one. But because we only put out one free episode a week and one premium episode a week, that's not enough for them. They drive to St. George every day just for fun. They don't even do it for work. They're not even commuting to St. George. You know what?

Gerrit It's time to go to St. George. And they need more podcasts, and so they start listening to other ones. They inevitably, I know this is going to come as a shock to you Richard, but they inevitably find a podcast that's better than ours.

Richard So literally anyone.

Gerrit Well, so yeah, they tuned in to any podcast, and they found one that's better. And as they're listening to it, what do they like about it? Oh, this person's digging deep into, you know, some church history stuff. You know, they don't ever talk about gambling. I kind of like that better. These people are really good at, you know, they don't ever laugh. They don't ever smile. These are my kinds of people, right? And you're listening to it, and then you kind of become a follower of it. And at first you're like, you know what? Boy, you know, this man or this woman, they have got such great insight. I feel so good when I listen to them, right? You listen for six months, seven months, eight months. Maybe you sign up for their premium content. And then the church makes a statement about something. And frankly, you can throw a dart at a board. Every person listening to us has a different thing that really, really, really matters to them. And the church makes a statement about that thing that is the opposite of what they want to believe.

Gerrit And then the person that they love who's a podcaster similarly comes on and disagrees with the church. Now, maybe they do it kindly and they do it subtly. They're like, well, you know, I just don't know if the church understands this whole issue. I think maybe, you know what? The church has probably been getting some bad advice from, you know, we know that there's a whole lot of these types of people at the church, and they probably, you know, in the church hierarchy, they're feeding the apostles some bad information, and that's why the church made the decision that they made. And that kind of sounds, you know, to someone who desperately wants to believe it, it starts to sound plausible, right? Well, sure, I mean, there's no way that the apostles could know everything. I mean, I'm sure it's just like an oversight. I'm sure the church will get back to understanding it. Now, let me just put out a disclaimer there. Again, a lot of disclaimers on this episode.

Gerrit First of all, your dogs are going to live again. Second of all, this is on both sides of the political divide, right? People who feel very strongly politically on one side or very strongly on the other side, I have numerous, numerous examples in my own personal life and with the people that I speak to when I speak, on both sides claiming that when it comes to some social or political issue, that the brethren are just not as clued in as their particular person is. And the crazy part about that is, the whole reason why you started listening to this other podcast, theoretical listener of ours, was because you liked how it seemed to be building up your faith.

Gerrit And that's why when the break came, when the person said, actually the church is wrong about this, that's why it was so persuasive to you. Because you would actually come to see your following of that podcaster, that blogger, that writer, that athlete, whatever, call the role of the hero worship. Right? You've started to come to see your love of that person as part of your testimony. And that's why it becomes such a difficult issue. Now, in church history, I use the phrase great big elders. This is something that Joseph Smith is constantly battling with his entire life, all the way up to his death. Joseph is clearly not the greatest native born orator.

Gerrit He's clearly not the best writer. He is obviously not a shrewd and honed politician, having served in numerous legislators. What does that mean? It means all along the way in early church history, there's always someone joining the church who is a better speaker, who's a better biblical scholar, who's more educated, who's a better writer, who's a better politician. And they often rise to prominence in the church. And it's in that very rise to prominence that they then decide that Joseph isn't being led correctly enough. And what's their deciding factor on whether it's correct, whether or not it's what they think. And so Joseph, in the Council of 50 Minutes, he's talking to, so Council of 50 Minutes, the Council of 50 is this organization that was created in 1844, only a few months before Joseph's murder.

Gerrit And the whole point of it is to help prepare and lead the Church and anyone else who wants to come out of the country to wherever they end up settling to build the Kingdom of God on earth. And to that end, they have to create a Constitution. Their idea is we're going to leave the United States, we're going to go somewhere where no one else lives, and we're going to set up a government that would be the type of government we wish we had in the United States, where people are actually protected, where people actually are trying to do the will of God. And if they don't belong to our religion, they're treated just as well as if they did. Well, you think about, I've used this example before, but it was a couple of years ago, you think about this idea of trying to write the Constitution not for your local PTA chapter, but for the kingdom of God on earth.

Gerrit That's a pretty daunting task. Hey, I need you to write the Constitution of the nation that the Lord will assume the direction of when he comes on his Second Coming. And in fact, the poor men assigned to it, like WW. Phelps and John Taylor, they drag their feet with this committee assignment, like all committee assignments. They drag their feet because, you know, how in the world can we possibly write the Constitution that God wants? How could we even know that? And at one point, after being pressured, they keep coming back to their various meetings, and there's always like, and we'd like to hear a report on the drafting of the Constitution by Elder Taylor and John Taylor. We need a little more time. We've just got to check the specs on the end line.

Gerrit I've got a few things going on. Got some really great, you know, watching the water in the Mississippi later on that I've got going on, and I need to, you know, I mean, just they keep trying to put it off. And eventually, you know, they simply, John Taylor simply says, Joseph, Joseph, why don't you just receive the Constitution by revelation? Anything we do is going to not be good enough, and you're going to have to change it anyway. So let's just skip the middleman, of John Taylor failing to write the Constitution properly, and just go right to Joseph receiving a revelation. That's a very faithful position of John Taylor. I'm not belittling that at all. But Joseph's response is so telling. He's with this group, you know, 50 plus men that are all part of this, and they're all the most prominent people of the community and in the church, right?

Gerrit He says, it's necessary for the council to exhaust their wisdom, and except they do, they will never know, but they are as wise as God himself. And ambitious men will, like Lucifer, think that they are as wise as God, and will try to lift themselves up and put their foot on the necks of others. There has always been some man to put himself forward and to say, I am the great I. And Joseph's now reflecting on this from the beginning of the church. If you go back to some of our earliest podcasts, we talk about this, that no sooner is a church created than Oliver Cowdery and Hiram Page are claiming that Joseph's wrong and that he's got the authority.

Gerrit The Whitmers are claiming that Joseph's wrong. And in another occasion, Joseph speaks to the Relief Society a few years earlier, where he uses this term. This is from the minutes of the Relief Society. President Smith continued speaking of the difficulties that he had to surmount ever since the commencement of this work in consequence of aspiring men. Great big elders, as he called them, who had caused so much trouble, whom he had taught in private council, and then they would go forth into the world and proclaim the things that he, Joseph, had taught them as their own revelations. He said the same aspiring disposition will be in this society, and it must be guarded against, that every person should stand and act in the place appointed, and thus sanctify the society and get it pure.

Gerrit He said that he had been trampled underfoot by aspiring elders, for all were infected by that spirit. For instance, Parley Pratt, Orson Pratt, Orson Hyde, John Page had been aspiring. They could not be exalted, but rust run away as though the care and authority of the church were vested with them. And this is where you probably heard people say this. You heard people quote Joseph on this. This is where Joseph, after giving that, says that we have a subtle devil to deal with. And he could only curb him by being humble. Now, what? Parley Pratt, Orson Pratt, Orson Hyde all, you know, returned after their brief questioning of Joseph. Johnny Page is actually going to end up not. But what is Joseph saying?

Gerrit They've been aspiring. Richard and I often talk about the truest thing that Joseph Smith ever received. If you don't, if you're wondering whether or not Joseph's a prophet, there's a lot of things you could point to with Joseph's prophetic utterance. But boy, it is really hard to get beyond the truest thing that he ever said. And that is the statement about the nature of almost all men. We've learned by sad experience that it's the nature of almost all men. As soon as they get a little authority, and the best part is, as they suppose. Yeah, we've learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men. Now, let's stop and pause just there for a moment. That means that the people who don't exercise unrighteous dominion when they get a little authority, as they suppose, is the minority.

Gerrit It is the nature and disposition of almost all men. As soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.

Richard It is one of those things that is funny. We should never be surprised when somebody is a bad leader. We actually should only be surprised when they're not.

Gerrit Yeah, we should be stunned when someone doesn't immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion. And this is a problem as Joseph listed it. You know, he listed off some of the people, and each of those people had personal followings. What you find when people apostatize is often, when someone apostatizes, the people who were baptized by them say, Oh, well, I mean, if Martin Harris doesn't believe, then I don't believe either, right? And they go out of the church together. The reality is always there is someone willing up to claim that they actually have the insight, and here's where Joseph was wrong. If we go all the way back to where we were talking about, the early church with people sliding on the floor and sailing in the ship to the Lamanites preaching the gospel, you have this early on, and it leads us to really what our answer to this kind of issue should be.

Gerrit And that's Doctrine and Covenants, Section 43, where there's false things that are being claimed, but the Lord is going to give you a way that you can know. Hark and all ye elders of my church, and give ear to my words that I shall speak unto you. For behold, verily, verily I say unto you that you have received a commandment for a law unto my church, through him whom I have appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations from my hand. And this you shall know assuredly, that there is none other appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations until he be taken, if he abide in me. So, here the Lord is having to state very unequivocally, no one can receive revelation for the church except for the prophet, no one.

Gerrit Well, what about Bill? He's like super righteous. No, not Bill the adulterer. No, he can't. But he's like really cool on his blog. That's great. If he's not the prophet, he can't receive revelation for the church. Now, I'm not making up those rules. This isn't like we're playing a board game when we're kids, and I'm playing with my younger brother so that I can be like, oh yeah, if you land on that space, you have to give me all of your money. It's like one of the rules in the rule book. And because he can't read, because he's little, he's like, okay, and hands me the money. I'm like, oh yeah, yes. Geez, I don't know why I keep winning. I'm not making this up. This is a rule that's created by God. Why is it created? Because there were so many people claiming that they were receiving revelation for the church. And so the Lord says, hey, Doctrine and Covenants section 21 said that only Joseph is going to receive revelation for the church. Doctrine and Covenants section 28 reiterated only Joseph is going to receive revelation for the church.

Gerrit Here, D&C 43 reminding them, just so you're aware, when the person comes along and says, yeah, yeah, I know it's the prophet, but also me, that they can't be telling the truth. Because God, in our standard works, has said that is not how He's going to speak to us. There is none other appointed to receive commandments until He be taken. And then, you know, knowing that someone will be like, yeah, well, sure. I mean, they were, you know, totally a prophet right up until they taught about, you know, something else, until he taught about, you know, baptism for the dead. Then he became a false prophet. Well, the Lord plans for that eventuality. Verily, verily, I say unto you that none else shall be appointed unto this gift except it be through him. For if it be taken from him, he shall not have power except to appoint another in his stead.

Gerrit So anyone claiming to have prophetic utterance that was not appointed by the prophet to have that utterance is lying. Now, maybe they sincerely believe they have that, and they're just deceived. But for all intents and purposes, as far as any of our listeners are concerned, they are wrong. But what if they said they've seen an angel? They're wrong. But you don't understand, this person is closer to Jesus than anyone I've ever talked to. Well, if they're claiming that they have received authority to speak for the church, then they're wrong. That's how you know. Now, I realize most of our listeners, I mean, outside of probably some exceptions, right? Probably Officer R and Rachel's mom. I don't know. Most of our listeners, it's not a...

Gerrit This isn't really an issue, right? They're not sitting there thinking, yeah, don't worry, Gerrit. I'm not like trying to find someone else to receive revelation for the church. But oftentimes, it doesn't go to that level. Now look, we have a couple of major apostate movements in the church right now that are literally following this guideline, following the argument that Joseph was a prophet, absolutely a prophet, super a prophet, totally a prophet. And then after him, well, Brigham Young was a false prophet. And luckily, you know, even though, you know, God said that the prophet would appoint the person who would have this power, like Joseph giving the keys to all of the Quorum of the Twelve, don't worry, I skipped that step because, you know, God came to me and made me a prophet on my own. Or an angel came to me and made me a prophet on my own. Well, that claim is in direct contradiction to Doctrine of Section 43.

Gerrit The idea that someone has some kind of special spiritual experience that gives them authority to speak for God is something that the Lord specifically says. That even if President Nelson were to become a fallen prophet, the way that the Lord would pick someone else would be through him. Not, it would be the last thing he'd be able to do before he was removed from his position. It wouldn't be by sending an angel to someone living in an American fork, popping into the basement saying, oh man, I got to tell you all the stuff that President Nelson's wrong about. That isn't how it's going to come. And first of all, go ahead.

Richard So, Gerrit, one thing that, I know you've said this before, but I mean, this just bears repeating in that it seems like people might say, well, obviously, I'm not going to listen to a person who claims to have received revelation on a particular thing and whatever. But as you mentioned, there are many apostate groups where that actually is happening. There's a certain element of a frog in hot water, and then there's other elements where it's just jumping right in and saying that they've seen Jesus and received these things. But you mentioned it before, but it just bears repeating that it often isn't just that. It's a person that you like and respect for something else, and then the church comes out with a statement against that person, and then your response is to turn on the church. We see that a lot as well.

Gerrit And again, we see it on both sides of whatever divide you're looking at. I can give examples right now of both sides. Let me just finish that verse 5, and this kind of goes more to the point of, because yeah, maybe they're not following after some kind of snufferite apostate group, but you just really think your blogger is right and the church is wrong on this particular point of doctrine. Verse 5, This shall be a law unto you, that ye receive not the teachings of any that shall come before you as revelations or commandments.

Richard That's great.

Gerrit So, if whatever this person is saying is so incredibly great, and you feel like they've transformed your life, if you take what they say over what the prophets and apostles say, then yeah, their teachings have transformed your life. But that transformation is they took you from being someone who is desperate to follow the Church and the Kingdom of God to someone who now is criticizing the Church because they just don't know what you know. Verse 6, the Lord says, I give you this unto you that you may not be deceived, that you may know they're not of me. The Lord desperately wants us to know where to look for truth. The problem is there's all kinds of other ways that Satan tries to distract us from what truth is.

Gerrit And, you know, rarely, rarely does Satan begin his temptations. You know, if he's trying to get Bill to commit adultery, rarely does he have someone, you know, knock on Bill's door out of the blue and say, Hi, I'm, you know, a woman of ill repute, and I'm here to fornicate with you. That's not usually how things happen, right? Usually it is by degrees that we start to give our allegiance to something that isn't the kingdom of God. As I see our time creeping up on us here, I've got a lot more I want to say. I know that that's a surprise to everybody listening. Everybody listening is like, oh, really, you don't say that you want to keep talking. I fell asleep half hour ago and I was driving a car. But so I think we will go ahead and pause our discussion here and then pick it up again next week, because this really is something that I'm kind of passionate about.

Gerrit And I really want to give it more time.

Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.

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Transcript

Quote board

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christianity.com, on whether animals will be in heaven

D&C 77, section heading

D&C 77, verse summary for verses 1-4

Revelation 4:6

D&C 77:2

D&C 77:3

Joseph Smith, sermon of April 8, 1843

"Animals Have Spirits Too," Gospel Living, ChurchofJesusChrist.org

W. Christopher Waddell, "More Than a Hero," general conference

W. Christopher Waddell, "More Than a Hero," general conference (continued)

Council of Fifty minutes, 1844

Nauvoo Relief Society minutes, Joseph Smith's remarks

Nauvoo Relief Society minutes, Joseph Smith's remarks (continued)

D&C 121:39

D&C 43:1-3

D&C 21

D&C 28

D&C 43:4

D&C 43:5

D&C 43:6

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What was the subject line of Jennifer's email?

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From 1843 to 1989

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