We're going to do season four Moroni part 37, which by the way is exactly what it would be if we did a plural marriage podcast.
Standard of Truth · Season 3 · Episode 46 · 59:16
Moroni Part 4
Joseph's own account admits that when he first reached the plates in 1823, he tried to take them for their value and could not, after an angel had warned him about exactly that four times.
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The question ·
Why couldn't Joseph get the plates on his first visit to the hill?
Gerrit
It took four takes to start the episode, and Richard reports on a stop in Kirtland at the School of the Prophets and the ashery. Alicia says Gerrit reminds her of how she pictures Joseph Smith, and Wendy asks how to share premium with her soon-to-be missionary daughter. Then Gerrit returns to the hill, using Oliver Cowdery's account and Joseph's history to show Joseph arguing with himself about the gold's value, failing to take the plates, and being told he hadn't kept the commandments. Gerrit contrasts Satan's physical attack at the First Vision with this quieter temptation, wrapped in a good desire to help his family. He closes on Joseph's honesty about his failings and on the family's grief when Alvin died.
Who comes upJoseph SmithMoroniOliver CowderyAlvin SmithLucy Mack SmithJosiah StowellJoseph Knight Sr.LamanLemuel
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Richard reveals it took four tries to start the episode.
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354 moments · tap a time to play from thereIntro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.
Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. That was our fourth take of trying to do this.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. That was our fourth take of trying to do this.
Gerrit I don't know that... I'm not sure that Richard's entirely educated on the reason why you do takes. It's to not tell the audience that it took four takes for me to say the word standard of truth without saying the word standard or without my wife speaking in the background. How are you doing, Angie?
Gerrit I don't know that... I'm not sure that Richard's entirely educated on the reason why you do takes. It's to not tell the audience that it took four takes for me to say the word standard of truth without saying the word standard or without my wife speaking in the background. How are you doing, Angie?
Richard She's great. She's doing just wonderful. We're glad to be here. This is part four of Moroni.
Richard She's great. She's doing just wonderful. We're glad to be here. This is part four of Moroni.
Gerrit Well, I feel like you kind of challenged me.
Gerrit Well, I feel like you kind of challenged me.
Richard I did.
Gerrit You came at me pretty hard.
Richard I did.
Gerrit You came at me pretty hard.
Richard I said, after the end of a part two, I said, we never do multi-parters.
Richard I said, after the end of a part two, I said, we never do multi-parters.
Gerrit And I feel like it's hurting our brand.
Gerrit And I feel like it's hurting our brand.
Richard And now we're doing four parts. Gerrit promised last week that we'd finish this week.
Richard And now we're doing four parts. Gerrit promised last week that we'd finish this week.
Gerrit There's not even a chance we're finishing this week. I mean, there's a chance.
Gerrit There's not even a chance we're finishing this week. I mean, there's a chance.
Richard Well, so this is one of the things that is great. So Gerrit probably spends seven to ten hours in research per episode, plus or minus, preparing some of the things that we have to be able to talk about. And so as Gerrit is doing additional research, he's finding more things that are interesting that we can be able to talk about. And the next thing we know, season four, all Moroni parts.
Richard Well, so this is one of the things that is great. So Gerrit probably spends seven to ten hours in research per episode, plus or minus, preparing some of the things that we have to be able to talk about. And so as Gerrit is doing additional research, he's finding more things that are interesting that we can be able to talk about. And the next thing we know, season four, all Moroni parts.
Gerrit We're going to do season four Moroni part 37, which by the way is exactly what it would be if we did a plural marriage podcast. It would be like, and this week on the Standard of Truth slash plural marriage podcast, I make it sound like we're some kind of bad daytime television, but you know what?
Gerrit We're going to do season four Moroni part 37, which by the way is exactly what it would be if we did a plural marriage podcast. It would be like, and this week on the Standard of Truth slash plural marriage podcast, I make it sound like we're some kind of bad daytime television, but you know what?
Richard We are.
Richard We are.
Gerrit Bad daytime television. At any rate, the reality is there's just a lot that goes into it. I mean, and look, Richard spends tons of time editing this as well, trying to get it. I mean, you do prep. Well, he doesn't do as much prep, but he does a ton of post production, okay? All kinds of post production.
Gerrit Bad daytime television. At any rate, the reality is there's just a lot that goes into it. I mean, and look, Richard spends tons of time editing this as well, trying to get it. I mean, you do prep. Well, he doesn't do as much prep, but he does a ton of post production, okay? All kinds of post production.
Richard I show up, hey, what are we talking about today?
Richard I show up, hey, what are we talking about today?
Gerrit And then I'm like, well, I thought that we would talk about X, and you know.
Gerrit And then I'm like, well, I thought that we would talk about X, and you know.
Richard And I'm like, nope, garbage.
Richard And I'm like, nope, garbage.
Gerrit And then he comes up with a better idea.
Gerrit And then he comes up with a better idea.
Richard People want polygamy. So we wanted to start with the Phebe Draper mailbag. We have a couple of emails. And then we'll get into Moroni part four. This first email comes to us from Alicia. The subject is happy birthday. Oh, Dr. Dirkmaat. I heard it was your birthday a couple of days ago. So this is coming out middle of November.
Richard People want polygamy. So we wanted to start with the Phebe Draper mailbag. We have a couple of emails. And then we'll get into Moroni part four. This first email comes to us from Alicia. The subject is happy birthday. Oh, Dr. Dirkmaat. I heard it was your birthday a couple of days ago. So this is coming out middle of November.
Gerrit That's about right. I mean, luckily, I mean, we again, we have to apologize. We receive many emails. And we are well beyond the capacity to respond to all of them. I don't know if everyone knows. We don't have what you would call a team. Richard will occasionally make reference to our crack research staff. And that's Richard on his MacBook researching it. That's what he means by the crack research staff. And so, you know, and we both, you know, are trying to provide for our families. And surprisingly, free content, free podcasting is not, it's not the number one way to provide for your family. I'll tell you that. It's because there's a lot of costs that are associated with it. So we just don't have the ability to answer all of them. We literally do read all of them. And maybe when we read them, we should just send like a really quick, like, got it.
Gerrit That's about right. I mean, luckily, I mean, we again, we have to apologize. We receive many emails. And we are well beyond the capacity to respond to all of them. I don't know if everyone knows. We don't have what you would call a team. Richard will occasionally make reference to our crack research staff. And that's Richard on his MacBook researching it. That's what he means by the crack research staff. And so, you know, and we both, you know, are trying to provide for our families. And surprisingly, free content, free podcasting is not, it's not the number one way to provide for your family. I'll tell you that. It's because there's a lot of costs that are associated with it. So we just don't have the ability to answer all of them. We literally do read all of them. And maybe when we read them, we should just send like a really quick, like, got it.
Richard Thanks.
Richard Thanks.
Gerrit Yeah, but then it would seem like we're being jerks about it, but we do read them all. We're really grateful for all of them.
Gerrit Yeah, but then it would seem like we're being jerks about it, but we do read them all. We're really grateful for all of them.
Richard We have seen a significant increase ever since I started giving away premium content to all missionary emails. We're getting a lot of...
Richard We have seen a significant increase ever since I started giving away premium content to all missionary emails. We're getting a lot of...
Gerrit We're getting a lot of fake made up emails. We're getting like a lot of like philastishurlbutt at ldschurch.org. It seems...
Gerrit We're getting a lot of fake made up emails. We're getting like a lot of like philastishurlbutt at ldschurch.org. It seems...
Richard It's a lot of effort to create a server that...
Richard It's a lot of effort to create a server that...
Gerrit I mean, yeah. philastishurlbutt slash Eber Howe at churchofjesuschrist.org. I don't know. I don't know if that's a missionary.
Gerrit I mean, yeah. philastishurlbutt slash Eber Howe at churchofjesuschrist.org. I don't know. I don't know if that's a missionary.
Richard You know, speaking of Eber Howe, I was actually, I was in Kirtland this last week. I went to the BYU drumming against West Virginia. BYU wasn't doing the drumming.
Richard You know, speaking of Eber Howe, I was actually, I was in Kirtland this last week. I went to the BYU drumming against West Virginia. BYU wasn't doing the drumming.
Gerrit They were being drummed. I don't want to play back the tape, but you could probably go back and put the tape in. I believe I said that... I mean, if we were doing this analog, there would be tape. That's where we get... For those of you young people that are listening, like Everett, if you're listening, which you probably aren't, because you only listen whenever your dad makes you listen. Last week, we talked about the West Virginia game, or last week or two weeks ago. Who knows? Yeah, at this point, it's all a blur, which is exactly what it was, West Virginia scoring against BYU. It was all a blur. But I had said, I love BYU, but they're about to get boat raced. And Richard was like, you know what? No, I think we're getting... He said, the offense is coming together, they're finding their footing, and then he thought they would cover, which they did not.
Gerrit They were being drummed. I don't want to play back the tape, but you could probably go back and put the tape in. I believe I said that... I mean, if we were doing this analog, there would be tape. That's where we get... For those of you young people that are listening, like Everett, if you're listening, which you probably aren't, because you only listen whenever your dad makes you listen. Last week, we talked about the West Virginia game, or last week or two weeks ago. Who knows? Yeah, at this point, it's all a blur, which is exactly what it was, West Virginia scoring against BYU. It was all a blur. But I had said, I love BYU, but they're about to get boat raced. And Richard was like, you know what? No, I think we're getting... He said, the offense is coming together, they're finding their footing, and then he thought they would cover, which they did not.
Richard They did not, unless you had them at 30.5.
Richard They did not, unless you had them at 30.5.
Gerrit You know what? Maybe you paid down points until you could get them at 30.
Gerrit You know what? Maybe you paid down points until you could get them at 30.
Richard That's a lot of points you're buying now.
Richard That's a lot of points you're buying now.
Gerrit Yeah, at that point, you're putting in a $20 bet, and you're getting back 30 cents.
Gerrit Yeah, at that point, you're putting in a $20 bet, and you're getting back 30 cents.
Richard That's correct. So it was not an ideal game. The fans in West Virginia were lovely. It was a fun time, and we had a great time. But while we were there, we drove up to Cleveland, went to Kirtland, and we met some senior missionaries there, brother and sister Lichty, and we told them we were coming in June. With the tour, and they were very, very excited. A friend that I went with, or several of them told them that I have a podcast where we do this history stuff, and they were asking me all kinds of questions. And as many of you might know, I don't know anything about church history.
Richard That's correct. So it was not an ideal game. The fans in West Virginia were lovely. It was a fun time, and we had a great time. But while we were there, we drove up to Cleveland, went to Kirtland, and we met some senior missionaries there, brother and sister Lichty, and we told them we were coming in June. With the tour, and they were very, very excited. A friend that I went with, or several of them told them that I have a podcast where we do this history stuff, and they were asking me all kinds of questions. And as many of you might know, I don't know anything about church history.
Gerrit Is that what you told Elder and Sister Lichting?
Gerrit Is that what you told Elder and Sister Lichting?
Richard I did. Well, because they kept asking me questions.
Richard I did. Well, because they kept asking me questions.
Gerrit Do you know what kind of spackle they put on the Kirtland Temple?
Gerrit Do you know what kind of spackle they put on the Kirtland Temple?
Richard Well, so we had a limited amount of time. And so it was, all right, do we do the Kirtland Temple? Do we do the new house, Joseph Smith home that is part there, that Gerrit hasn't been to yet. You are an enemy. Or School of the Prophets. I was like, ah, boy, but they're all great. We went to School of the Prophets.
Richard Well, so we had a limited amount of time. And so it was, all right, do we do the Kirtland Temple? Do we do the new house, Joseph Smith home that is part there, that Gerrit hasn't been to yet. You are an enemy. Or School of the Prophets. I was like, ah, boy, but they're all great. We went to School of the Prophets.
Gerrit It's amazing.
Gerrit It's amazing.
Richard It was great, right?
Richard It was great, right?
Gerrit It's one of the places you can go in America where not only do you know that Joseph Smith was on those very four boards, but the Savior appears to them on those very four boards. So it's one of the most special holy places that we have.
Gerrit It's one of the places you can go in America where not only do you know that Joseph Smith was on those very four boards, but the Savior appears to them on those very four boards. So it's one of the most special holy places that we have.
Richard That and the Ashery. The Ashery I love because boy, do they really crank that bad boy out. They turn about $200 per barrel of produce. So the Ashery, then School of the Prophets, in terms of my favorite parts of the...
Richard That and the Ashery. The Ashery I love because boy, do they really crank that bad boy out. They turn about $200 per barrel of produce. So the Ashery, then School of the Prophets, in terms of my favorite parts of the...
Gerrit So where God and Jesus appear is... I love it. I mean, but it's not as financially viable as the Ashery.
Gerrit So where God and Jesus appear is... I love it. I mean, but it's not as financially viable as the Ashery.
Richard What the Ashery is able to produce in terms of revenue for the saints is significant. I mean, it's wonderful. For all the poor saints that are moving in, they're able to bring their ash in, get a couple of shekels, and then good old Null Ks, they're able to turn that into straight cash homing.
Richard What the Ashery is able to produce in terms of revenue for the saints is significant. I mean, it's wonderful. For all the poor saints that are moving in, they're able to bring their ash in, get a couple of shekels, and then good old Null Ks, they're able to turn that into straight cash homing.
Gerrit You think they're using Old Testament currency?
Gerrit You think they're using Old Testament currency?
Richard Yes. Anyway, I love the Ashery. I do love it. But School of the Prophets is incredible. You're sitting in that room, they read a couple of accounts, and it's incredibly special. We would love to... Our Nauvoo, Missouri tour is... I mean, it's like a Delta flight at this point. It's oversold.
Richard Yes. Anyway, I love the Ashery. I do love it. But School of the Prophets is incredible. You're sitting in that room, they read a couple of accounts, and it's incredibly special. We would love to... Our Nauvoo, Missouri tour is... I mean, it's like a Delta flight at this point. It's oversold.
Gerrit Yeah, well, it's like every frontier flight that's ever been. Maybe, I don't know.
Gerrit Yeah, well, it's like every frontier flight that's ever been. Maybe, I don't know.
Richard We want... We need 10 people to cancel. No, so that one's full.
Richard We want... We need 10 people to cancel. No, so that one's full.
Gerrit We don't offer anybody anything. You know what? We're oversold, and you're not on the tour anymore?
Gerrit We don't offer anybody anything. You know what? We're oversold, and you're not on the tour anymore?
Intro That's not true.
Intro That's not true.
Richard So that one is actually a little oversold. It's going to be a lot of fun. We're going to be packed. It's going to be a blast. And then... But we still have availability for the Palmyra, the Gettysburg slash for Rocky possible Baltimore Orioles game slash, I think he's coming in early to hit some baseball games.
Richard So that one is actually a little oversold. It's going to be a lot of fun. We're going to be packed. It's going to be a blast. And then... But we still have availability for the Palmyra, the Gettysburg slash for Rocky possible Baltimore Orioles game slash, I think he's coming in early to hit some baseball games.
Gerrit He's going to be excited.
Gerrit He's going to be excited.
Richard And then we go to Kirtland and we go to Palmyra. We play at playing the hits. So that'll be great. So we would love for you to join us for that. That'll be the first week of June. First full week of June is the Palmyra one. And then Missouri, Nauvoo, you can't sign up. You can't come.
Richard And then we go to Kirtland and we go to Palmyra. We play at playing the hits. So that'll be great. So we would love for you to join us for that. That'll be the first week of June. First full week of June is the Palmyra one. And then Missouri, Nauvoo, you can't sign up. You can't come.
Gerrit But next year, the next year.
Gerrit But next year, the next year.
Richard Next year, next year.
Richard Next year, next year.
Gerrit Yeah, you can always, we'll keep going. Well, maybe.
Gerrit Yeah, you can always, we'll keep going. Well, maybe.
Richard I would love, I would love a multipartner on the Ashery if we could. Holy places from our past.
Richard I would love, I would love a multipartner on the Ashery if we could. Holy places from our past.
Gerrit Unfortunately, this is the last episode of the Standard of Truth podcast.
Gerrit Unfortunately, this is the last episode of the Standard of Truth podcast.
Richard Dr. Dirkmaat, I heard it was your birthday a couple of days ago. That being the case, I just wanted to take a moment and send a positive email with the flood of all the hate mail you get and wish you a happy birthday. Thank you so much for you and Richard. I love your program so much, I promise. It's not hero worship though, thank you.
Richard Dr. Dirkmaat, I heard it was your birthday a couple of days ago. That being the case, I just wanted to take a moment and send a positive email with the flood of all the hate mail you get and wish you a happy birthday. Thank you so much for you and Richard. I love your program so much, I promise. It's not hero worship though, thank you.
Gerrit Oh, very good. Very nicely done, Alicia.
Gerrit Oh, very good. Very nicely done, Alicia.
Richard However amusing you might find, what I'm going to say next, you must believe I'm completely sincere. Buckle up. Oh boy, so she's about to say something very nice.
Richard However amusing you might find, what I'm going to say next, you must believe I'm completely sincere. Buckle up. Oh boy, so she's about to say something very nice.
Gerrit Or not. Yeah, you never really know.
Gerrit Or not. Yeah, you never really know.
Richard Either way, buckle up. Your personality, the way you joke, the way you interact with others, most especially your testimony and your faith, is how I picture the Prophet Joseph Smith. Granted, I've never met the Prophet Joseph in person. I'm only going off the small little accounts of history that I know. I've only lived on this earth for 45 years. I don't know very much, and I haven't met very many people, so I don't have a lot to compare. But in life, we often like to personify people from the past with people of the present. So that is so that we can imagine them in person a little better. It is strange for me to say that you remind me so much of him when I've never met him in person. You must be kindred spirits. Either way, happy birthday. Best wishes.
Richard Either way, buckle up. Your personality, the way you joke, the way you interact with others, most especially your testimony and your faith, is how I picture the Prophet Joseph Smith. Granted, I've never met the Prophet Joseph in person. I'm only going off the small little accounts of history that I know. I've only lived on this earth for 45 years. I don't know very much, and I haven't met very many people, so I don't have a lot to compare. But in life, we often like to personify people from the past with people of the present. So that is so that we can imagine them in person a little better. It is strange for me to say that you remind me so much of him when I've never met him in person. You must be kindred spirits. Either way, happy birthday. Best wishes.
Gerrit If you want to know the greatest compliment you could ever pay me, it is to say that I in any way remind anyone, in any way, even slightly, of Joseph Smith.
Gerrit If you want to know the greatest compliment you could ever pay me, it is to say that I in any way remind anyone, in any way, even slightly, of Joseph Smith.
Richard I love the Anne of Green Gables deep cut here on kindred spirits as well. That's well done.
Richard I love the Anne of Green Gables deep cut here on kindred spirits as well. That's well done.
Gerrit You know, and that's one that I'm sure Angie caught.
Gerrit You know, and that's one that I'm sure Angie caught.
Richard I'm sure. I'm sure.
Richard I'm sure. I'm sure.
Gerrit And Becky. Becky probably caught kindred spirit.
Gerrit And Becky. Becky probably caught kindred spirit.
Richard I've been to Prince Edward Island with Becky, took her on a...
Richard I've been to Prince Edward Island with Becky, took her on a...
Gerrit Did you have a cow that pulled you through the mud?
Gerrit Did you have a cow that pulled you through the mud?
Richard No, but we went to all the places, and I am not familiar with... I mean, I'm familiar with that the book exists, but I didn't read it as a child.
Richard No, but we went to all the places, and I am not familiar with... I mean, I'm familiar with that the book exists, but I didn't read it as a child.
Gerrit Did you watch the movie every single Sunday for most of your young adult life?
Gerrit Did you watch the movie every single Sunday for most of your young adult life?
Richard I did not.
Richard I did not.
Gerrit Well, then you're not Angie.
Gerrit Well, then you're not Angie.
Richard We were able to watch, I think I mentioned this before, the living scriptures. We got the free first one.
Richard We were able to watch, I think I mentioned this before, the living scriptures. We got the free first one.
Gerrit Yes. So you just kept watching them...
Gerrit Yes. So you just kept watching them...
Richard Defying the brass plates.
Richard Defying the brass plates.
Gerrit Yeah, so you kept getting the really high pitched Lemuel talking about, it's getting lighter, I'm getting stronger. Because all the stuff was falling out of the back?
Gerrit Yeah, so you kept getting the really high pitched Lemuel talking about, it's getting lighter, I'm getting stronger. Because all the stuff was falling out of the back?
Richard 100%. My sister and I, we can do that entire thing from...
Richard 100%. My sister and I, we can do that entire thing from...
Gerrit I think we should have Sarah on at some point.
Gerrit I think we should have Sarah on at some point.
Richard We should.
Richard We should.
Gerrit And have her, we've had my brother on, let's have your sister on.
Gerrit And have her, we've had my brother on, let's have your sister on.
Richard We should, we should have her on, and all we'll do is reenact Defying the Brass Plates living scripture.
Richard We should, we should have her on, and all we'll do is reenact Defying the Brass Plates living scripture.
Gerrit I especially want her to reenact the killing of Laban with you being Laban. Well, so you can get drunk.
Gerrit I especially want her to reenact the killing of Laban with you being Laban. Well, so you can get drunk.
Richard Well, so as my mother is a convert, and she's a Jewish convert, and Sabbath day of adherence is something that's very important. And so she was a Shiite Mormon where we would had very strict Sabbath day observance on terms of television and things. And so that's the movie we were allowed to watch. So we watched it on a loop. Speaking of tape, it was a VHS.
Richard Well, so as my mother is a convert, and she's a Jewish convert, and Sabbath day of adherence is something that's very important. And so she was a Shiite Mormon where we would had very strict Sabbath day observance on terms of television and things. And so that's the movie we were allowed to watch. So we watched it on a loop. Speaking of tape, it was a VHS.
Gerrit Yeah, I thought it was on Betamax.
Gerrit Yeah, I thought it was on Betamax.
Richard This email comes to us from Wendy. Hi Richard and Gerrit. Thanks for all you do. The humor as well as the history and sharing of knowledge. I've listened to you guys since Gerrit sat with Hank and John in their Doctrine and Covenants year. Follow him. I love delving into history. I'm not an expert. I don't have a PhD, but love seeing church history and its historical context. I subscribe to your premium content as soon as it was a bit long. Oh, thank you so much. Thank you so much.
Richard This email comes to us from Wendy. Hi Richard and Gerrit. Thanks for all you do. The humor as well as the history and sharing of knowledge. I've listened to you guys since Gerrit sat with Hank and John in their Doctrine and Covenants year. Follow him. I love delving into history. I'm not an expert. I don't have a PhD, but love seeing church history and its historical context. I subscribe to your premium content as soon as it was a bit long. Oh, thank you so much. Thank you so much.
Gerrit You are helping put this on the air.
Gerrit You are helping put this on the air.
Richard So you have at least one subscriber in Australia. But if you're paying with Australian dollars though.
Richard So you have at least one subscriber in Australia. But if you're paying with Australian dollars though.
Gerrit Yeah, what is the convention right now? I mean, it feels like it's taking a hit, the Australian dollar has.
Gerrit Yeah, what is the convention right now? I mean, it feels like it's taking a hit, the Australian dollar has.
Richard My daughter is getting ready to put in her mission papers. I keep telling her to listen as you give such good grounding in so much of early church history and especially Joseph Smith and his journey. However, I listen to you in Apple Podcasts, and she has Spotify. Is there any way for me to cheat you out of your second subscription and get her Spotify to recognize my subscription? She found an anti-YouTuber the other day.
Richard My daughter is getting ready to put in her mission papers. I keep telling her to listen as you give such good grounding in so much of early church history and especially Joseph Smith and his journey. However, I listen to you in Apple Podcasts, and she has Spotify. Is there any way for me to cheat you out of your second subscription and get her Spotify to recognize my subscription? She found an anti-YouTuber the other day.
Gerrit Those are pretty hard to find. You have to comb the internet. You've got to search long and hard.
Gerrit Those are pretty hard to find. You have to comb the internet. You've got to search long and hard.
Richard I assume it's like the scene from Spaceballs where they're combing the desert. We had a discussion on sources, so you have taught me well, but that gave me added incentive to get her listening to you. Maybe I need to drive her around in my car listening or get her arrested in Idaho.
Richard I assume it's like the scene from Spaceballs where they're combing the desert. We had a discussion on sources, so you have taught me well, but that gave me added incentive to get her listening to you. Maybe I need to drive her around in my car listening or get her arrested in Idaho.
Gerrit We know an officer who could help out. He could have her in the back of that squad car. In fact, we just had lunch with him. And greatest guy ever. We're going to keep the name out. We don't want anyone to know. Officer R.
Gerrit We know an officer who could help out. He could have her in the back of that squad car. In fact, we just had lunch with him. And greatest guy ever. We're going to keep the name out. We don't want anyone to know. Officer R.
Richard He's a member of the tribe.
Richard He's a member of the tribe.
Gerrit He also, like Richard's mother, was a Jewish convert to... Incredible conversion story. Incredible guy, incredible. We got to meet his son. They were going to the BYU game because obviously they didn't watch the game last week. But you know what? I want to get there in person.
Gerrit He also, like Richard's mother, was a Jewish convert to... Incredible conversion story. Incredible guy, incredible. We got to meet his son. They were going to the BYU game because obviously they didn't watch the game last week. But you know what? I want to get there in person.
Richard It was a blast actually. It actually is one of those things where... So he's going to be coming on the tour and it's one of those things where the tour we did last year was so much fun. Because there's people that are relatively like-minded, they like to laugh, have a good time.
Richard It was a blast actually. It actually is one of those things where... So he's going to be coming on the tour and it's one of those things where the tour we did last year was so much fun. Because there's people that are relatively like-minded, they like to laugh, have a good time.
Gerrit People who take the gospel very seriously, but don't take themselves seriously. We need to put that on a t-shirt.
Gerrit People who take the gospel very seriously, but don't take themselves seriously. We need to put that on a t-shirt.
Richard We should. Well, I will say, Wendy, one day I hope Tangent leads to early church history in Australia as well. Thanks again for sharing your time and talents. On first generation Dutch transplant too, I love the Dutch connection. Sorry Richard, no French. Wendy, you're dead to me. Wendy, you know what?
Richard We should. Well, I will say, Wendy, one day I hope Tangent leads to early church history in Australia as well. Thanks again for sharing your time and talents. On first generation Dutch transplant too, I love the Dutch connection. Sorry Richard, no French. Wendy, you're dead to me. Wendy, you know what?
Gerrit Now you're a real kindred spirit, to borrow the phrase. Because there you are. I'm the first of my dad's side of the family born in the United States. My dad was born in the Netherlands, so I'm a first generation American, essentially. Born in America. Now on my mom's side, she's been here since.
Gerrit Now you're a real kindred spirit, to borrow the phrase. Because there you are. I'm the first of my dad's side of the family born in the United States. My dad was born in the Netherlands, so I'm a first generation American, essentially. Born in America. Now on my mom's side, she's been here since.
Richard Miles Standish.
Gerrit Yeah, seriously. She was at the first Thanksgiving. No, not even her. Not even her grandmother. No, her personally. Yeah, she was like, do you guys want candied yams or what?
Richard Miles Standish.
Gerrit Yeah, seriously. She was at the first Thanksgiving. No, not even her. Not even her grandmother. No, her personally. Yeah, she was like, do you guys want candied yams or what?
Richard So I will say, Wendy, you can send us your daughter's missionary email, and we will send you the link to the Google Drive so that you can have access to them while you're a missionary or while you're preparing for your mission.
Richard So I will say, Wendy, you can send us your daughter's missionary email, and we will send you the link to the Google Drive so that you can have access to them while you're a missionary or while you're preparing for your mission.
Gerrit They call us, give it away, Gerrit. We're just giving it away. And you know what? Look, the whole reason why we do the podcast is to try to help strengthen faith and to try to help people who have questions about church history and things like that. And so for us, the whole point of this is to find ways to help people. And so, of course, we're happy to help out. If you're willing to commit to serve God on a mission, we're willing to help out in any way we can.
Gerrit They call us, give it away, Gerrit. We're just giving it away. And you know what? Look, the whole reason why we do the podcast is to try to help strengthen faith and to try to help people who have questions about church history and things like that. And so for us, the whole point of this is to find ways to help people. And so, of course, we're happy to help out. If you're willing to commit to serve God on a mission, we're willing to help out in any way we can.
Richard And I will say the most popular, obviously, the condemned to repeat it, that can be interesting for those that like history. But the Joseph Smith and the Restoration, specifically the apostasy leading into the Reformation are the most popular episodes for missionaries, which is why we like to give those away for free. As well as we have our missionary extravaganza episode that is for free. That also, hey, here's a couple of, you know, Doctrine and Covenants 76, 93, a couple other key teachings, Trinity.
Richard And I will say the most popular, obviously, the condemned to repeat it, that can be interesting for those that like history. But the Joseph Smith and the Restoration, specifically the apostasy leading into the Reformation are the most popular episodes for missionaries, which is why we like to give those away for free. As well as we have our missionary extravaganza episode that is for free. That also, hey, here's a couple of, you know, Doctrine and Covenants 76, 93, a couple other key teachings, Trinity.
Gerrit We spent a lot of time on some Protestant theology because in the premium content, because we want people to understand that what it is that's driving the questions that Joseph has and what's going on in the religious world at the time of Joseph Smith. So really appreciate the email. Thank you so much for listening. It does feel good to be able to say, you know, we have a listener halfway around the world. Yeah. You know? And we've been to that, the Sea Life Sydney.
Gerrit We spent a lot of time on some Protestant theology because in the premium content, because we want people to understand that what it is that's driving the questions that Joseph has and what's going on in the religious world at the time of Joseph Smith. So really appreciate the email. Thank you so much for listening. It does feel good to be able to say, you know, we have a listener halfway around the world. Yeah. You know? And we've been to that, the Sea Life Sydney.
Richard Yeah, that's right.
Richard Yeah, that's right.
Gerrit We have been to Sea Life Sydney. We have been there and we've, well, we didn't get to hold a koala, unfortunately, but we did get to, we got up close and personal with one.
Gerrit We have been to Sea Life Sydney. We have been there and we've, well, we didn't get to hold a koala, unfortunately, but we did get to, we got up close and personal with one.
Richard We did. And as we mentioned, so any missionary, right, they can send us the missionary email, we'll give you access to all that premium content. And I will say it was interesting. I tried to get my sons before they left on their mission to listen to the podcast. My oldest son, the one that is in Spain, he enjoyed it, listened to it. My second oldest son did not, could not possibly have cared less about it, but went on his mission and cares about it about the same as he did before.
Richard We did. And as we mentioned, so any missionary, right, they can send us the missionary email, we'll give you access to all that premium content. And I will say it was interesting. I tried to get my sons before they left on their mission to listen to the podcast. My oldest son, the one that is in Spain, he enjoyed it, listened to it. My second oldest son did not, could not possibly have cared less about it, but went on his mission and cares about it about the same as he did before.
Gerrit Well, in fairness to his son, his second son, he also knows me. So, I mean, if there's any, I mean, there are probably few, you know, 19-year-olds who know me as well, 18-year-olds know me as well as Rigdon does.
Gerrit Well, in fairness to his son, his second son, he also knows me. So, I mean, if there's any, I mean, there are probably few, you know, 19-year-olds who know me as well, 18-year-olds know me as well as Rigdon does.
Richard It's true. It is true. And I will say, Rigdon, who has now been robbed a handful of times, he was the most disappointed. It was actually a funny thing that he said to Becky when we were able to talk to him. Duolingo did not prepare me for the words that they would use when I was being robbed.
Richard It's true. It is true. And I will say, Rigdon, who has now been robbed a handful of times, he was the most disappointed. It was actually a funny thing that he said to Becky when we were able to talk to him. Duolingo did not prepare me for the words that they would use when I was being robbed.
Gerrit You know what? There should be like a, I'm going to a bad area Duolingo. It's like the words you're going to need to know are your money or your life. Yes, I want the shoes too.
Gerrit You know what? There should be like a, I'm going to a bad area Duolingo. It's like the words you're going to need to know are your money or your life. Yes, I want the shoes too.
Richard Actually, one of the funnier stories when we were meeting with Officer R, when he was talking about when he was robbed in Mexico City, he was robbed so many times in Mexico City that by the end of his mission, he's like, look, I need $2 for bus fare to get back. Give me at least $2 back. This is ridiculous. So he would be negotiating with the robber, and the robber was like, fine, fine. Here's your $2.
Richard Actually, one of the funnier stories when we were meeting with Officer R, when he was talking about when he was robbed in Mexico City, he was robbed so many times in Mexico City that by the end of his mission, he's like, look, I need $2 for bus fare to get back. Give me at least $2 back. This is ridiculous. So he would be negotiating with the robber, and the robber was like, fine, fine. Here's your $2.
Gerrit A robber with a heart of gold. Basically Robin Hood at that point, right? Robbing from the poor and giving a little bit back to that person so they can get home.
Gerrit A robber with a heart of gold. Basically Robin Hood at that point, right? Robbing from the poor and giving a little bit back to that person so they can get home.
Richard That's right.
Richard That's right.
Gerrit And that's what we like to promote. Speaking of people who try to steal things, let's talk about Joseph Smith. We left off talking about his walk. We read that quote from Oliver Cowdery that he's walking up to where he knows the plates are. Again, because he had a vision, okay? When the angel appeared, the angel showed him in vision exactly where the plates were. So as Joseph talks about it, I knew the place. I knew it as he's walking up there. He doesn't need to have a compass. But as we also read that quote from Oliver Cowdery, as he's walking up there, Joseph is, he's fighting an argument in his mind about the fact that he is going somewhere where he's been told there are gold plates buried in the hill.
Gerrit And that's what we like to promote. Speaking of people who try to steal things, let's talk about Joseph Smith. We left off talking about his walk. We read that quote from Oliver Cowdery that he's walking up to where he knows the plates are. Again, because he had a vision, okay? When the angel appeared, the angel showed him in vision exactly where the plates were. So as Joseph talks about it, I knew the place. I knew it as he's walking up there. He doesn't need to have a compass. But as we also read that quote from Oliver Cowdery, as he's walking up there, Joseph is, he's fighting an argument in his mind about the fact that he is going somewhere where he's been told there are gold plates buried in the hill.
Gerrit And frankly, the fact that they're valuable, the fact that it's at least real gold, or it's at least something that's valuable, is confirmed by the angel himself. Because that third time that the angel appears, the angel tells him that Satan would try to tempt him. I wish I had an angel that would come and appear to me every time I'm about to be tempted, and the angel would say, Hey, Gerrit, Satan's about to tempt you to honk at this person who just cut you off. I mean, it was a pretty bad cutoff, so I mean, I understand we didn't have cars back when I was immortal. You know what, maybe lay off. Think about if you had an angel warning you about every one of your about to be temptations of Satan. I mean, you'd think that'd be helpful, although I probably still would have honked the horn. So Joseph gets to that, he gets to that spotty. He opens it up and he sees this gold.
Gerrit And frankly, the fact that they're valuable, the fact that it's at least real gold, or it's at least something that's valuable, is confirmed by the angel himself. Because that third time that the angel appears, the angel tells him that Satan would try to tempt him. I wish I had an angel that would come and appear to me every time I'm about to be tempted, and the angel would say, Hey, Gerrit, Satan's about to tempt you to honk at this person who just cut you off. I mean, it was a pretty bad cutoff, so I mean, I understand we didn't have cars back when I was immortal. You know what, maybe lay off. Think about if you had an angel warning you about every one of your about to be temptations of Satan. I mean, you'd think that'd be helpful, although I probably still would have honked the horn. So Joseph gets to that, he gets to that spotty. He opens it up and he sees this gold.
Gerrit And as Oliver Cowdery explained, while he was walking up there, he was having this kind of argument with himself about how valuable this gold was, how much he could change his family's lives if he just took the gold, if he just maybe took part of it. And I think that's an aspect of Joseph getting the plates and his time that he spends with Moroni that we don't think about too much. The reason why we know that Joseph is tempted to take the plates for money is because Joseph Smith tells us that he was tempted to take the plates for money. So it's a pretty good source. I mean, since he's the only one who's there, I mean, it would be funny if Angel Moroni was giving a side interview, like I was there for that. He's trying to take the plates. But here Joseph is following this vision that he had. He's following the angelic instructions that he's received now four times in this small window.
Gerrit And as Oliver Cowdery explained, while he was walking up there, he was having this kind of argument with himself about how valuable this gold was, how much he could change his family's lives if he just took the gold, if he just maybe took part of it. And I think that's an aspect of Joseph getting the plates and his time that he spends with Moroni that we don't think about too much. The reason why we know that Joseph is tempted to take the plates for money is because Joseph Smith tells us that he was tempted to take the plates for money. So it's a pretty good source. I mean, since he's the only one who's there, I mean, it would be funny if Angel Moroni was giving a side interview, like I was there for that. He's trying to take the plates. But here Joseph is following this vision that he had. He's following the angelic instructions that he's received now four times in this small window.
Gerrit And yet the power of the adversary in tempting him was so much that when Joseph finally did get up there, the temptation has actually overwhelmed him. The angel has said that you have to have an eye single to the glory of God. And Joseph clearly does not have an eye single to the glory of God. As he says in Joseph Smith history, which you all have, I made an attempt to take them out, but was forbidden by the messenger and was again informed the time for bringing them forth had not yet arrived. When he's talking about it in his earlier account, it's a little bit more visceral and he provides a little bit more details. This is from his 1832 history that he writes, where he spends a little bit more time on his attempt to get the plates. He is going to explain exactly how this is a multi-part thing.
Gerrit And yet the power of the adversary in tempting him was so much that when Joseph finally did get up there, the temptation has actually overwhelmed him. The angel has said that you have to have an eye single to the glory of God. And Joseph clearly does not have an eye single to the glory of God. As he says in Joseph Smith history, which you all have, I made an attempt to take them out, but was forbidden by the messenger and was again informed the time for bringing them forth had not yet arrived. When he's talking about it in his earlier account, it's a little bit more visceral and he provides a little bit more details. This is from his 1832 history that he writes, where he spends a little bit more time on his attempt to get the plates. He is going to explain exactly how this is a multi-part thing.
Gerrit He goes there, finds where the plates are, tries to get them, and he's not able to get them right away. And in fact, he's going to make multiple attempts to get them. He says, I immediately went to the place and found where the plates was deposited as the angel of the Lord had commanded me, and straightway made three attempts to get them. And then being exceedingly frightened, I supposed it had been a dream of vision. But when I had considered I knew that it was not, therefore I cried unto the Lord in the agony of my soul, why can I not obtain them? So Joseph here is explaining that he opens the box. I mean, he's able to pry open the stone lid to this box, looks down in and he sees that they're gold, and he goes to take them, and he can't.
Gerrit He goes there, finds where the plates are, tries to get them, and he's not able to get them right away. And in fact, he's going to make multiple attempts to get them. He says, I immediately went to the place and found where the plates was deposited as the angel of the Lord had commanded me, and straightway made three attempts to get them. And then being exceedingly frightened, I supposed it had been a dream of vision. But when I had considered I knew that it was not, therefore I cried unto the Lord in the agony of my soul, why can I not obtain them? So Joseph here is explaining that he opens the box. I mean, he's able to pry open the stone lid to this box, looks down in and he sees that they're gold, and he goes to take them, and he can't.
Gerrit And in fact makes multiple attempts to take them. He's prevented, and you'll notice he even starts to doubt everything. I became exceedingly frightened. I supposed it had been a dream of vision. But when I considered I knew that it was not, I cried unto the Lord. So at this point, because he can see these plates, but he can't physically take them, he's actually starting to doubt everything. I mean, did I even really see an angel? And then as he has that thought to himself, no, obviously the angel came this morning. So yeah, I've seen an angel. I've seen an angel four times. And so he's going to make this fervent prayer. I cry out to the Lord. And behold, the angel appeared unto me again and said, You have not kept the commandments of the Lord, which I gave unto you. Therefore, you cannot now obtain them, for the time is not yet fulfilled.
Gerrit And in fact makes multiple attempts to take them. He's prevented, and you'll notice he even starts to doubt everything. I became exceedingly frightened. I supposed it had been a dream of vision. But when I considered I knew that it was not, I cried unto the Lord. So at this point, because he can see these plates, but he can't physically take them, he's actually starting to doubt everything. I mean, did I even really see an angel? And then as he has that thought to himself, no, obviously the angel came this morning. So yeah, I've seen an angel. I've seen an angel four times. And so he's going to make this fervent prayer. I cry out to the Lord. And behold, the angel appeared unto me again and said, You have not kept the commandments of the Lord, which I gave unto you. Therefore, you cannot now obtain them, for the time is not yet fulfilled.
Gerrit Therefore, that was left unto temptation. And this is a very interesting thing that we don't get from what you have in Joseph Smith history in your scriptures. From this earliest account of Joseph talking about it, the angel is teaching Joseph something here. That we miss, that he says, that you were left, that thou was left unto temptation, that thou mightest be made acquainted with the power of the adversary. Therefore, repent and call on the Lord, thou shalt be forgiven. And in his own due time, thou shalt obtain them. So Joseph, first of all, says he's not able to get him because he hasn't kept the commandments, and that because he hadn't kept the commandments, the Lord deliberately allowed Satan to tempt him in part so that Joseph could fully understand just how powerful that the power of the adversary was.
Gerrit Therefore, that was left unto temptation. And this is a very interesting thing that we don't get from what you have in Joseph Smith history in your scriptures. From this earliest account of Joseph talking about it, the angel is teaching Joseph something here. That we miss, that he says, that you were left, that thou was left unto temptation, that thou mightest be made acquainted with the power of the adversary. Therefore, repent and call on the Lord, thou shalt be forgiven. And in his own due time, thou shalt obtain them. So Joseph, first of all, says he's not able to get him because he hasn't kept the commandments, and that because he hadn't kept the commandments, the Lord deliberately allowed Satan to tempt him in part so that Joseph could fully understand just how powerful that the power of the adversary was.
Gerrit Just so he could, I mean, not that Joseph doesn't remember what happened when he first tried to pray several years ago when he had the First Vision, but here this is the power of Satan's temptation. Rather than this physical attempt to overpower Joseph right before he calls upon the Lord, this is the power of the adversary to redirect Joseph's thoughts away from what an angel has proclaimed to him toward the thing that's always on his mind every single day. How can I help my family get out of poverty? It's a pretty easy temptation. Satan knew right where to go. For Joseph, the thing he thought about every day all day long, how can I help my family get out of their financial problems? And so Satan worked on him so that when he opened that box and he saw those plates, the first thought was, we're rich.
Gerrit Just so he could, I mean, not that Joseph doesn't remember what happened when he first tried to pray several years ago when he had the First Vision, but here this is the power of Satan's temptation. Rather than this physical attempt to overpower Joseph right before he calls upon the Lord, this is the power of the adversary to redirect Joseph's thoughts away from what an angel has proclaimed to him toward the thing that's always on his mind every single day. How can I help my family get out of poverty? It's a pretty easy temptation. Satan knew right where to go. For Joseph, the thing he thought about every day all day long, how can I help my family get out of their financial problems? And so Satan worked on him so that when he opened that box and he saw those plates, the first thought was, we're rich.
Gerrit Now Joseph could have just said, I didn't keep the commandments. And we'd be like, well, what does he mean that he didn't keep the commandments? Joseph's then very clear, he follows it up, saying very clearly after he says, the angel tells him to repent and call upon the Lord, and thou shalt be forgiven. And then in his own due time, thou shalt obtain them. For now I had been tempted of the adversary and sought the plates to obtain riches and kept not the commandment that I should have an eye single to the glory of God. Therefore I was chastened and I was chastened and I was chastened and I was chastened and I was chastened and I was chastened and I was chastened and sought diligently to obtain the plates. He's going to go on to talk more about the things that happened after that. But we'll stop his narrative there for a second. Imagine the disappointment that you would feel personally as you have the reality that there is this ancient record from God is directly in front of you.
Gerrit Now Joseph could have just said, I didn't keep the commandments. And we'd be like, well, what does he mean that he didn't keep the commandments? Joseph's then very clear, he follows it up, saying very clearly after he says, the angel tells him to repent and call upon the Lord, and thou shalt be forgiven. And then in his own due time, thou shalt obtain them. For now I had been tempted of the adversary and sought the plates to obtain riches and kept not the commandment that I should have an eye single to the glory of God. Therefore I was chastened and I was chastened and I was chastened and I was chastened and I was chastened and I was chastened and I was chastened and sought diligently to obtain the plates. He's going to go on to talk more about the things that happened after that. But we'll stop his narrative there for a second. Imagine the disappointment that you would feel personally as you have the reality that there is this ancient record from God is directly in front of you.
Gerrit You have now had this angel appear to you five times in the course of, I mean, at the very most 24 hours, but probably 12 or 15 hours. Five times an angel from the unseen world has appeared to you, given you directions, given you instruction. And this last time it's the angel letting you know, Hey Joseph, you couldn't get the plates because we all know what was on your mind. You were thinking of trying to get rich off of the plates. Even after I warned you, you can't want the plates for yourself. But in that same chastisement is going to educate him. The Lord allowed Satan to tempt you just so you could be acquainted with the power of the adversary and his ability to tempt.
Gerrit You have now had this angel appear to you five times in the course of, I mean, at the very most 24 hours, but probably 12 or 15 hours. Five times an angel from the unseen world has appeared to you, given you directions, given you instruction. And this last time it's the angel letting you know, Hey Joseph, you couldn't get the plates because we all know what was on your mind. You were thinking of trying to get rich off of the plates. Even after I warned you, you can't want the plates for yourself. But in that same chastisement is going to educate him. The Lord allowed Satan to tempt you just so you could be acquainted with the power of the adversary and his ability to tempt.
Gerrit So this explanation that Joseph gives, using both of these sources together really helps get us an idea of where Joseph is at personally in September of 1823.
Gerrit So this explanation that Joseph gives, using both of these sources together really helps get us an idea of where Joseph is at personally in September of 1823.
Richard It is interesting that we all face a pretty reasonable amount of temptation in our lives from time to time, but the amount of temptation and the amount of how much Joseph would need to be acquainted with that was interesting that he has this manifestation from Jesus and from Heavenly Father before. But as Moroni is helping Joseph, helping to prepare him to become a prophet now, it's interesting that that's one of the first things that happen. That's fascinating.
Richard It is interesting that we all face a pretty reasonable amount of temptation in our lives from time to time, but the amount of temptation and the amount of how much Joseph would need to be acquainted with that was interesting that he has this manifestation from Jesus and from Heavenly Father before. But as Moroni is helping Joseph, helping to prepare him to become a prophet now, it's interesting that that's one of the first things that happen. That's fascinating.
Gerrit It is interesting. I mean, we talk about Moroni educating Joseph. We already said there's some things that he taught Joseph that we don't know, right? I mean, Joseph tells us, he quoted many scriptures to me that I can't tell you right now. Well, that's not as helpful for our follow him study, the come follow me study in the mornings. But there are some things that Joseph's very clear that the Lord taught him. And one of the things in this period of great disappointment that he learns is just how powerful the adversary is.
Gerrit It is interesting. I mean, we talk about Moroni educating Joseph. We already said there's some things that he taught Joseph that we don't know, right? I mean, Joseph tells us, he quoted many scriptures to me that I can't tell you right now. Well, that's not as helpful for our follow him study, the come follow me study in the mornings. But there are some things that Joseph's very clear that the Lord taught him. And one of the things in this period of great disappointment that he learns is just how powerful the adversary is.
Richard So, but it's interesting though, because he had an experience with the adversary during the First Vision, but that was obviously very different than these thoughts of wealth and financial riches that he's having here.
Richard So, but it's interesting though, because he had an experience with the adversary during the First Vision, but that was obviously very different than these thoughts of wealth and financial riches that he's having here.
Gerrit It's a different type of power that the adversary has. The first one is, frankly, it almost seems like, and I don't know, as someone who's never seen Jesus, I can't really tell you all the ways that that affects you. But the first experience when he has the First Vision, Satan seems to be appearing to either take over his body or to physically restrain him. Remember, his tongue cleaved to the roof of his mouth. He can hear the footsteps of someone in that brush, and he jumps up and looks around, and to the point where Joseph says, I thought I was going to be destroyed, and he makes this very clear point. This is not some imaginary force. This is real, right? Some actual being from the unseen world. And I've said before on this podcast that one of the things that is going to become increasingly unique to Latter-day Saint theology is something that you don't think about a whole heck of a lot, or maybe you do.
Gerrit It's a different type of power that the adversary has. The first one is, frankly, it almost seems like, and I don't know, as someone who's never seen Jesus, I can't really tell you all the ways that that affects you. But the first experience when he has the First Vision, Satan seems to be appearing to either take over his body or to physically restrain him. Remember, his tongue cleaved to the roof of his mouth. He can hear the footsteps of someone in that brush, and he jumps up and looks around, and to the point where Joseph says, I thought I was going to be destroyed, and he makes this very clear point. This is not some imaginary force. This is real, right? Some actual being from the unseen world. And I've said before on this podcast that one of the things that is going to become increasingly unique to Latter-day Saint theology is something that you don't think about a whole heck of a lot, or maybe you do.
Gerrit You know what? You're probably thinking about it all the time. You're like, don't tell me what I think about. You're probably thinking about stealing plates. If only I had the opportunity. This entire podcast is just me saying, give me a chance to steal plates to pay for this podcast. But the reality is that we believe that Satan is a real being. And I know that all of us have Christian friends, and they certainly believe that Satan exists. But I'm telling you, you can look at the Pew study of religions. You can look at religious polling over the past 20 years. It's not just that people are losing faith in God, generally. Even people who believe in God are losing their belief that Satan exists. So one of the increasingly unique aspects of Latter-day Saint theology is we don't think that Satan is just this idea or something that we collectively call evil or, you know, the devil made me do it as a way of giving an excuse when we ate the last piece of birthday cake when we knew our son wanted it, but, hey, it's my birthday, so I'm going to eat the last piece of birth.
Gerrit You know what? You're probably thinking about it all the time. You're like, don't tell me what I think about. You're probably thinking about stealing plates. If only I had the opportunity. This entire podcast is just me saying, give me a chance to steal plates to pay for this podcast. But the reality is that we believe that Satan is a real being. And I know that all of us have Christian friends, and they certainly believe that Satan exists. But I'm telling you, you can look at the Pew study of religions. You can look at religious polling over the past 20 years. It's not just that people are losing faith in God, generally. Even people who believe in God are losing their belief that Satan exists. So one of the increasingly unique aspects of Latter-day Saint theology is we don't think that Satan is just this idea or something that we collectively call evil or, you know, the devil made me do it as a way of giving an excuse when we ate the last piece of birthday cake when we knew our son wanted it, but, hey, it's my birthday, so I'm going to eat the last piece of birth.
Gerrit This seems a little autobiographical. Yes. But in fact, it was the other way around. He ate my piece of birthday cake. Alicia, if only we'd gotten your email earlier. That idea that there really is a powerful being in the unseen world that is trying to destroy your soul. Think about how hard things are, right? Life is difficult. It seems like temptations come at us almost continually. Have you ever thought about why that is? There's not only Lucifer, but however many untold billions of the spirits that followed him who are desperately trying to destroy your soul. And they do it through tempting us to sin. So while in this first experience, Joseph got to experience the physical reality that Satan has power and that he can try at least to take over your body, which is what Joseph has.
Gerrit This seems a little autobiographical. Yes. But in fact, it was the other way around. He ate my piece of birthday cake. Alicia, if only we'd gotten your email earlier. That idea that there really is a powerful being in the unseen world that is trying to destroy your soul. Think about how hard things are, right? Life is difficult. It seems like temptations come at us almost continually. Have you ever thought about why that is? There's not only Lucifer, but however many untold billions of the spirits that followed him who are desperately trying to destroy your soul. And they do it through tempting us to sin. So while in this first experience, Joseph got to experience the physical reality that Satan has power and that he can try at least to take over your body, which is what Joseph has.
Gerrit He's losing some physical control. The second time is far more subtle. The second time is not physical. In fact, the second time is when Satan does his best work with Joseph. Because when we're tempted, it is rarely that we are tempted with some kind of incredibly avant-garde thing. I don't know if anyone listening to us has ever been possessed. Frankly, I'm not sure what those emails would look like if I got them. But I'm pretty certain that everybody listening has faced incredible temptation in their life, almost overpowering temptation, right? And this is what Joseph is... And Satan goes right, goes right to where Joseph is the weakest. Satan tempts us in ways that make it seem like doing the wrong thing is somehow right.
Gerrit He's losing some physical control. The second time is far more subtle. The second time is not physical. In fact, the second time is when Satan does his best work with Joseph. Because when we're tempted, it is rarely that we are tempted with some kind of incredibly avant-garde thing. I don't know if anyone listening to us has ever been possessed. Frankly, I'm not sure what those emails would look like if I got them. But I'm pretty certain that everybody listening has faced incredible temptation in their life, almost overpowering temptation, right? And this is what Joseph is... And Satan goes right, goes right to where Joseph is the weakest. Satan tempts us in ways that make it seem like doing the wrong thing is somehow right.
Gerrit It's a right thing to want to help my family, isn't it? That's right. It's a righteous thing. My poor mother, Lucy Mack, my poor father has struggled so much. It is a right thing to want to help them. But the way that he's going to be tempted to help them is to be tempted to help them through taking these plates. So I think it's actually incredibly instructive to all of us. If you want to know how it is the adversary is going to try to get inside of your whole armor of God, it's going to be by telling you half truths and lies. Rarely is he going to have someone knock on your door and say, Hey, I'm Satan. I'm Satan. Want to go commit adultery, Bill? I mean, Bill would say yes.
Gerrit It's a right thing to want to help my family, isn't it? That's right. It's a righteous thing. My poor mother, Lucy Mack, my poor father has struggled so much. It is a right thing to want to help them. But the way that he's going to be tempted to help them is to be tempted to help them through taking these plates. So I think it's actually incredibly instructive to all of us. If you want to know how it is the adversary is going to try to get inside of your whole armor of God, it's going to be by telling you half truths and lies. Rarely is he going to have someone knock on your door and say, Hey, I'm Satan. I'm Satan. Want to go commit adultery, Bill? I mean, Bill would say yes.
Richard Bill's going to sign up for that nine times out of ten. And the only time he isn't is because he's seen his stomach.
Richard Bill's going to sign up for that nine times out of ten. And the only time he isn't is because he's seen his stomach.
Gerrit Yeah, his ring doorbell wasn't working. I don't know if you can see Satan on a ring doorbell.
Gerrit Yeah, his ring doorbell wasn't working. I don't know if you can see Satan on a ring doorbell.
Richard Well, ring is very effective. It's a sponsor of the podcast.
Richard Well, ring is very effective. It's a sponsor of the podcast.
Gerrit I wish. We have zero sponsors of the podcast. Why do you think we're giving premium content away to missionaries?
Gerrit I wish. We have zero sponsors of the podcast. Why do you think we're giving premium content away to missionaries?
Richard Ring doorbell, jersey mics.
Richard Ring doorbell, jersey mics.
Gerrit Yeah. Well, you know, but all kidding aside, Joseph is being taught something very important here. How powerful is Satan's ability to tempt us when an angel can appear to you four times in the space of half of a day and at least two of those times say, Hey, Joseph, Satan is going to try to tempt you to steal the plates. And the angel leaves and Joseph's like, I'm going to get my hand on some of these plates. I think it's actually a very instructive thing about the power of the adversary. The adversary knows us from the pre-existence. You went through a veil. He didn't, right? He is well aware of where our weaknesses are. And I think that's the reason why Joseph will say later in life when he's speaking to the Relief Society sisters, he'll tell them that, you know, I have a very subtle devil to deal with, and I can only curb him by being humble.
Gerrit Yeah. Well, you know, but all kidding aside, Joseph is being taught something very important here. How powerful is Satan's ability to tempt us when an angel can appear to you four times in the space of half of a day and at least two of those times say, Hey, Joseph, Satan is going to try to tempt you to steal the plates. And the angel leaves and Joseph's like, I'm going to get my hand on some of these plates. I think it's actually a very instructive thing about the power of the adversary. The adversary knows us from the pre-existence. You went through a veil. He didn't, right? He is well aware of where our weaknesses are. And I think that's the reason why Joseph will say later in life when he's speaking to the Relief Society sisters, he'll tell them that, you know, I have a very subtle devil to deal with, and I can only curb him by being humble.
Gerrit What a great teaching, right? Because I know we like to think, you know what, I'm so righteous. I mean, I don't know how many of our listeners are thinking, I'm so righteous, they'd be listening to a different podcast. But we do like to kind of say, you know what, I'm doing pretty good. And you know what, you probably are. You're probably all living celestial lives. When I talk about repentance, it's probably something minor. It's probably, oh, I wish I would have visited a fourth person in my ward this Sunday instead of only three. What kind of a horrible person am I? You know, you're all wonderful and good people. But the reality is, Satan, like he did with Peter, desires, you know, your soul. And the way that the adversary tempts us is through those vulnerabilities that we have because of mortality. If Joseph was a billionaire, my guess is Satan wouldn't have gotten very far saying, hey, Joseph, you should steal those plates that the angel just told you were from God.
Gerrit What a great teaching, right? Because I know we like to think, you know what, I'm so righteous. I mean, I don't know how many of our listeners are thinking, I'm so righteous, they'd be listening to a different podcast. But we do like to kind of say, you know what, I'm doing pretty good. And you know what, you probably are. You're probably all living celestial lives. When I talk about repentance, it's probably something minor. It's probably, oh, I wish I would have visited a fourth person in my ward this Sunday instead of only three. What kind of a horrible person am I? You know, you're all wonderful and good people. But the reality is, Satan, like he did with Peter, desires, you know, your soul. And the way that the adversary tempts us is through those vulnerabilities that we have because of mortality. If Joseph was a billionaire, my guess is Satan wouldn't have gotten very far saying, hey, Joseph, you should steal those plates that the angel just told you were from God.
Gerrit Because Joseph would be like, why would I want just another gold brick? I've got an entire fireplace of gold bricks. I don't need this one. And plus it's got someone wrote all over it, and they graffitied it. You know, I noticed Joseph starts to gain a little bit of a British uppity accent as he becomes rich.
Gerrit Because Joseph would be like, why would I want just another gold brick? I've got an entire fireplace of gold bricks. I don't need this one. And plus it's got someone wrote all over it, and they graffitied it. You know, I noticed Joseph starts to gain a little bit of a British uppity accent as he becomes rich.
Richard He's an aristocrat.
Richard He's an aristocrat.
Gerrit Yeah, right. I don't know, Wendy, what the Australian equivalent is to someone becoming wealthy.
Gerrit Yeah, right. I don't know, Wendy, what the Australian equivalent is to someone becoming wealthy.
Richard Someone that doesn't have a life sentence.
Richard Someone that doesn't have a life sentence.
Gerrit So as long as you don't have a life sentence, wow, that's a little rough. Oh yeah, Angie is chiming in for the background, letting us know that someone is not Bogan, right? Is that?
Gerrit So as long as you don't have a life sentence, wow, that's a little rough. Oh yeah, Angie is chiming in for the background, letting us know that someone is not Bogan, right? Is that?
Richard That's correct. That's everyone from West Virginia that was very nice.
Richard That's correct. That's everyone from West Virginia that was very nice.
Gerrit Anyway, the way that the adversary tempts us is based upon our life circumstances. And I think that's one of the universal aspects of humanity, is that Satan will tempt us. Now maybe when you're wealthy, he's not tempting you with trying to steal gold plates, but he might be tempting you with something else. And what Joseph learned over and over again is how often the adversary tempts us with the idea of fame and worldly renown. As Joseph said, there are so many great big elders, as we talked about on the Hero Worship episodes. So I think it's a very crucial thing to stop and take stock for a minute of what a shattering disappointment this is. What would you be thinking about yourself if an angel has appeared to you four times telling you God has a special work for you to do, and you 100% failed at that work?
Gerrit Anyway, the way that the adversary tempts us is based upon our life circumstances. And I think that's one of the universal aspects of humanity, is that Satan will tempt us. Now maybe when you're wealthy, he's not tempting you with trying to steal gold plates, but he might be tempting you with something else. And what Joseph learned over and over again is how often the adversary tempts us with the idea of fame and worldly renown. As Joseph said, there are so many great big elders, as we talked about on the Hero Worship episodes. So I think it's a very crucial thing to stop and take stock for a minute of what a shattering disappointment this is. What would you be thinking about yourself if an angel has appeared to you four times telling you God has a special work for you to do, and you 100% failed at that work?
Richard I thought that was interesting too, by the way. I remember as a kid reading first Nephi, because that's all that I ever read as a kid. And then stop reading, because you've got time to say it. And by kid, I mean until I was 44. But I've always read that with a joke in my mind of thinking, well, of course he's saying this, he's the one writing it. It really says something here that Joseph Smith is admitting to all of these things. Because it's one thing to see all of these things and then immediately to have those feelings. It's another thing to admit it.
Richard I thought that was interesting too, by the way. I remember as a kid reading first Nephi, because that's all that I ever read as a kid. And then stop reading, because you've got time to say it. And by kid, I mean until I was 44. But I've always read that with a joke in my mind of thinking, well, of course he's saying this, he's the one writing it. It really says something here that Joseph Smith is admitting to all of these things. Because it's one thing to see all of these things and then immediately to have those feelings. It's another thing to admit it.
Gerrit To tell people. I mean, Joseph is telling us the reason why he was supposed to get the plates in 1823. You know, not spoiler alert. He doesn't get them till 1827. And so think of how crushing this disappointment must have been. I don't know. I mean, you know, the angel told him, call upon the Lord and the Lord will forgive you. And we must only assume that that's the case. Now, remember, the angel had only about 12 hours earlier said, your sins are forgiven you. Joseph made it almost 12 hours before offending God so much that an angel again had to say, oh boy.
Gerrit To tell people. I mean, Joseph is telling us the reason why he was supposed to get the plates in 1823. You know, not spoiler alert. He doesn't get them till 1827. And so think of how crushing this disappointment must have been. I don't know. I mean, you know, the angel told him, call upon the Lord and the Lord will forgive you. And we must only assume that that's the case. Now, remember, the angel had only about 12 hours earlier said, your sins are forgiven you. Joseph made it almost 12 hours before offending God so much that an angel again had to say, oh boy.
Richard Well, I hit my sister at the luncheon after my baptism. So I lasted about 45 minutes.
Richard Well, I hit my sister at the luncheon after my baptism. So I lasted about 45 minutes.
Gerrit I remember thinking that when I was a little kid. I remember going under the water. And when I was under the water having the thought, when I come up, I'm going to be perfectly clean. Yeah. But then, you know, like you after you come up out of the water, like you're like, is that cousin Ed? I don't even like him. Why'd he come to my baptism? You know, and then I don't have a cousin. I'm just throwing that out there to try to Try to make me feel better about hitting my sister at the luncheon. Well, I tried to distract. I mean, Sarah, if you're listening, I know you're not, but No, she's not. She's not. It is funny that the people who listen to us least are the people who are closest to us.
Gerrit I remember thinking that when I was a little kid. I remember going under the water. And when I was under the water having the thought, when I come up, I'm going to be perfectly clean. Yeah. But then, you know, like you after you come up out of the water, like you're like, is that cousin Ed? I don't even like him. Why'd he come to my baptism? You know, and then I don't have a cousin. I'm just throwing that out there to try to Try to make me feel better about hitting my sister at the luncheon. Well, I tried to distract. I mean, Sarah, if you're listening, I know you're not, but No, she's not. She's not. It is funny that the people who listen to us least are the people who are closest to us.
Richard Well, I mean, they get this for free all the time. They don't enjoy that either.
Richard Well, I mean, they get this for free all the time. They don't enjoy that either.
Gerrit Yeah. When they say you get it for free. It's like you get chicken pox for free. Here's, here's measles for free. Um, so Joseph goes back to his house. We don't know much about what happens next. Now we can piece together bits and pieces of his life through other sources over the course of the next several years. But here's what we do know. Every year, he's supposed to go back to that same spot and go back to get to see if he's yet worthy to get the plates. And every single year he goes, and every single year, Angel appears and Joseph with a year to prepare. A year! He's got... Okay, think about the goals that you've set, right? He's walking down from the hill. Okay, 365 days to stop trying to steal the gold plates.
Gerrit Yeah. When they say you get it for free. It's like you get chicken pox for free. Here's, here's measles for free. Um, so Joseph goes back to his house. We don't know much about what happens next. Now we can piece together bits and pieces of his life through other sources over the course of the next several years. But here's what we do know. Every year, he's supposed to go back to that same spot and go back to get to see if he's yet worthy to get the plates. And every single year he goes, and every single year, Angel appears and Joseph with a year to prepare. A year! He's got... Okay, think about the goals that you've set, right? He's walking down from the hill. Okay, 365 days to stop trying to steal the gold plates.
Gerrit Right? And what does he have, like a Christmas countdown calendar?
Gerrit Right? And what does he have, like a Christmas countdown calendar?
Richard He's got a paper chaise.
Richard He's got a paper chaise.
Gerrit He's pulling paper chaise. It's like an advent calendar. He opens it up like, don't steal the gold plates today.
Gerrit He's pulling paper chaise. It's like an advent calendar. He opens it up like, don't steal the gold plates today.
Richard Yeah, 217 days to not want to steal the gold plates.
Richard Yeah, 217 days to not want to steal the gold plates.
Gerrit If his family had the ability to afford mirrors, I'm sure he could put a post-it belt. Or paper. Or paper. He can't afford paper. He could put a post-it on his mirror that says, hey Joseph, don't try to steal the gold plates from God today. But whatever it took to fully purge himself, he's not there yet. In 1824, a year later, he goes back. He's still not able to get the plates. Now, the angel is going to give him instruction. The angel is going to say to him, you know, multiple different things. But as Joseph described it here, he says, he told me that I should come back to precisely the same place in one year from that time and that he would there meet me and that I should continue to do so until the time should come for obtaining the plates. Accordingly, as I had been commanded, I went at the end of each year and each time I found the same messenger there and received instruction and intelligence from him at each of our interviews, respecting what the Lord was going to do and how and in what manner his kingdom was to be conducted in the last days.
Gerrit If his family had the ability to afford mirrors, I'm sure he could put a post-it belt. Or paper. Or paper. He can't afford paper. He could put a post-it on his mirror that says, hey Joseph, don't try to steal the gold plates from God today. But whatever it took to fully purge himself, he's not there yet. In 1824, a year later, he goes back. He's still not able to get the plates. Now, the angel is going to give him instruction. The angel is going to say to him, you know, multiple different things. But as Joseph described it here, he says, he told me that I should come back to precisely the same place in one year from that time and that he would there meet me and that I should continue to do so until the time should come for obtaining the plates. Accordingly, as I had been commanded, I went at the end of each year and each time I found the same messenger there and received instruction and intelligence from him at each of our interviews, respecting what the Lord was going to do and how and in what manner his kingdom was to be conducted in the last days.
Gerrit So again, I really want you to try to put yourself in Joseph Smith's shoes here. The very fact that he shows up and can't get the plates is in and of itself a demonstration that Joseph is not totally worthy. And even though he's not totally worthy, does the angel say, well, I gave you two tries at this. I've appeared to you like 10 times at this point. How many angels do you have to see, laymen? You don't know that. You don't know about Lemuel yet, I guess.
Gerrit So again, I really want you to try to put yourself in Joseph Smith's shoes here. The very fact that he shows up and can't get the plates is in and of itself a demonstration that Joseph is not totally worthy. And even though he's not totally worthy, does the angel say, well, I gave you two tries at this. I've appeared to you like 10 times at this point. How many angels do you have to see, laymen? You don't know that. You don't know about Lemuel yet, I guess.
Richard Well, you would if you would have been more righteous.
Richard Well, you would if you would have been more righteous.
Gerrit You should have already known about Laymen and Lemuel. I'm going to quote from them even though you don't know who they are because you haven't read the book yet. But even in that disappointment that, you know what, Joseph, your heart's still not ready for this, the angel continues to teach him, Moroni continues to teach him about how the kingdom of God is going to be restored. Now, we don't know exactly what he teaches him, but we do know that every year he goes back, every year he's unable to get them. And, you know, Richard, you brought up a really good point. This is actually a really big part of Joseph Smith's history, of the history that Joseph wrote to the world. I mean, if you go back to why is the 1838, the history of the church, why is it written, owing to the many reports which have been put in circulation by evil disposed and designing persons in relation to the rise and progress of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, all of which have been designed by the authors thereof to militate against its character as a church and its progress in the world, I have been induced to write this history, to disabuse the public mind and put all inquirers after truth in possession of the facts as they have transpired in relation both to myself and the church so far as I have such facts in my possession.
Gerrit You should have already known about Laymen and Lemuel. I'm going to quote from them even though you don't know who they are because you haven't read the book yet. But even in that disappointment that, you know what, Joseph, your heart's still not ready for this, the angel continues to teach him, Moroni continues to teach him about how the kingdom of God is going to be restored. Now, we don't know exactly what he teaches him, but we do know that every year he goes back, every year he's unable to get them. And, you know, Richard, you brought up a really good point. This is actually a really big part of Joseph Smith's history, of the history that Joseph wrote to the world. I mean, if you go back to why is the 1838, the history of the church, why is it written, owing to the many reports which have been put in circulation by evil disposed and designing persons in relation to the rise and progress of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, all of which have been designed by the authors thereof to militate against its character as a church and its progress in the world, I have been induced to write this history, to disabuse the public mind and put all inquirers after truth in possession of the facts as they have transpired in relation both to myself and the church so far as I have such facts in my possession.
Gerrit This history was not written in Joseph's journal. This is not like the 1832 history that's just written down and they never complete it. We don't know, maybe they intended to publish it, but they didn't. This was specifically written to counter all of the attacks that were being made on the church and on Joseph Smith's character. Back to Richard's point, that's a pretty weird thing to spend so much time talking about what a failure you were at trying to get the plates, if it wasn't really true. If the whole point is to just build yourself up by this false story that you've created out of whole cloth, why are you spending so much time talking about how terrible you are at it? That's not a very good look, that he has to keep coming back and back and back because he can't get the plates.
Gerrit This history was not written in Joseph's journal. This is not like the 1832 history that's just written down and they never complete it. We don't know, maybe they intended to publish it, but they didn't. This was specifically written to counter all of the attacks that were being made on the church and on Joseph Smith's character. Back to Richard's point, that's a pretty weird thing to spend so much time talking about what a failure you were at trying to get the plates, if it wasn't really true. If the whole point is to just build yourself up by this false story that you've created out of whole cloth, why are you spending so much time talking about how terrible you are at it? That's not a very good look, that he has to keep coming back and back and back because he can't get the plates.
Gerrit I think it does demonstrate the sincerity and the honesty of Joseph's account. There's no real reason for him, when he's trying to disabuse people of evil designed and designing persons, to say, yeah, well, I was sinning.
Gerrit I think it does demonstrate the sincerity and the honesty of Joseph's account. There's no real reason for him, when he's trying to disabuse people of evil designed and designing persons, to say, yeah, well, I was sinning.
Richard A lot of people have been saying, I'm a pretty good guy. I want to disabuse you of that.
Richard A lot of people have been saying, I'm a pretty good guy. I want to disabuse you of that.
Gerrit Let me go back to the far, the one part of what they're saying is that I was a sinner. Joseph's very honest about his sins. At one point he's going to say, I've never said that I was perfect, but there is no error in the revelations I've received. Right, so there's a difference between him not being a perfect person, but him perfectly communicating what it is that God wants him to communicate.
Gerrit Let me go back to the far, the one part of what they're saying is that I was a sinner. Joseph's very honest about his sins. At one point he's going to say, I've never said that I was perfect, but there is no error in the revelations I've received. Right, so there's a difference between him not being a perfect person, but him perfectly communicating what it is that God wants him to communicate.
Richard I will say one other thing that is beautiful about this. This is one of the things that I can certainly liken to myself here, that again and again and again I fall short and I fail and I fall short and I fail. And the idea of this temptation from Satan over and over, that when he doesn't receive it, I'm sure he feels pretty beaten down by how terrible are you, you'll never receive it. And that to continue to go back, to continue to go back until ultimately at the end receives it. I think that's a beautiful symbolism for us and all of the things we go through in this one.
Richard I will say one other thing that is beautiful about this. This is one of the things that I can certainly liken to myself here, that again and again and again I fall short and I fail and I fall short and I fail. And the idea of this temptation from Satan over and over, that when he doesn't receive it, I'm sure he feels pretty beaten down by how terrible are you, you'll never receive it. And that to continue to go back, to continue to go back until ultimately at the end receives it. I think that's a beautiful symbolism for us and all of the things we go through in this one.
Gerrit Yeah, I mean the reality that this really is a good microcosm of all of our mortal lives. I mean, unfortunately, until after this life, we don't ever get to the point where Satan stops tempting us. We don't ever get to the point where we get to put our flag in the ground at the top of temptation Everest and say, this is it, I've achieved, I'm perfected, I'm never going to be tempted again. Salvation and the progress towards exaltation is this daily struggle where we're just trying to make ourselves a little bit better than we were the day before. And of course, we aren't on many of those days. How many days will we be begging God to forgive us because we didn't act the way that we should have? Because we didn't have our thoughts pure on an eye single to the glory of God. Joseph Smith's early life and his odyssey to obtain the plates under Moroni's direction.
Gerrit Yeah, I mean the reality that this really is a good microcosm of all of our mortal lives. I mean, unfortunately, until after this life, we don't ever get to the point where Satan stops tempting us. We don't ever get to the point where we get to put our flag in the ground at the top of temptation Everest and say, this is it, I've achieved, I'm perfected, I'm never going to be tempted again. Salvation and the progress towards exaltation is this daily struggle where we're just trying to make ourselves a little bit better than we were the day before. And of course, we aren't on many of those days. How many days will we be begging God to forgive us because we didn't act the way that we should have? Because we didn't have our thoughts pure on an eye single to the glory of God. Joseph Smith's early life and his odyssey to obtain the plates under Moroni's direction.
Gerrit Again, Joseph has an angel appearing to him. Hey Joseph, maybe next time stop trying to steal the plates. I don't know what Moroni is saying. But by the third or fourth year, this is not the end of Joseph Smith's tutelage by Moroni. And as he goes back, year after year, his family is still poverty stricken. So I don't know what the temptation is, but my guess is it's still the same kind of temptation. This is, it's in the intervening years that some other things are going to happen, like Alvin will die shortly after Joseph's first failed attempt to get those plates. Well, Alvin's death is incredibly tragic. I mean, Joseph loves him. And the way, if you haven't read Lucy Mack's depiction of Alvin's death in her book, you know, get a box of Kleenex and then go read it because it's just awful. He knows he's dying and he starts saying goodbye to everybody and to the little kids.
Gerrit Again, Joseph has an angel appearing to him. Hey Joseph, maybe next time stop trying to steal the plates. I don't know what Moroni is saying. But by the third or fourth year, this is not the end of Joseph Smith's tutelage by Moroni. And as he goes back, year after year, his family is still poverty stricken. So I don't know what the temptation is, but my guess is it's still the same kind of temptation. This is, it's in the intervening years that some other things are going to happen, like Alvin will die shortly after Joseph's first failed attempt to get those plates. Well, Alvin's death is incredibly tragic. I mean, Joseph loves him. And the way, if you haven't read Lucy Mack's depiction of Alvin's death in her book, you know, get a box of Kleenex and then go read it because it's just awful. He knows he's dying and he starts saying goodbye to everybody and to the little kids.
Gerrit And it is just, you know, it is heart rending to read. Not only is it this huge emotional, just knife to the heart of the Smith family, Alvin is their primary source of income. Alvin is the oldest boy. Alvin is the one who is able to produce the most work, and he is the one who gets hired out for the most money because he is the most experienced, the oldest son. And so not only do you lose, you know, your oldest son, the one who is the mentor of Joseph and Hyrum and others, you lose a whole part of the way that you were barely hanging on. Part of the reason why you were hanging on was Alvin was contributing with his labor, and now Alvin is gone. It's during this same time that Joseph Smith is eventually, in 1825, going to be hired by Josiah Stoll to go down to Pennsylvania, in the New York, Pennsylvania area, to search for an old abandoned silver mine that Josiah Stoll believes is somewhere there in Pennsylvania.
Gerrit And it is just, you know, it is heart rending to read. Not only is it this huge emotional, just knife to the heart of the Smith family, Alvin is their primary source of income. Alvin is the oldest boy. Alvin is the one who is able to produce the most work, and he is the one who gets hired out for the most money because he is the most experienced, the oldest son. And so not only do you lose, you know, your oldest son, the one who is the mentor of Joseph and Hyrum and others, you lose a whole part of the way that you were barely hanging on. Part of the reason why you were hanging on was Alvin was contributing with his labor, and now Alvin is gone. It's during this same time that Joseph Smith is eventually, in 1825, going to be hired by Josiah Stoll to go down to Pennsylvania, in the New York, Pennsylvania area, to search for an old abandoned silver mine that Josiah Stoll believes is somewhere there in Pennsylvania.
Gerrit Now, there are many problems with this. First, the Spanish were never in Pennsylvania. It becomes very difficult to have a Spanish silver mine anywhere where the Spanish never lived. I've always found that that's one of the, it is one of the drawbacks of saying, you know what, let's go find a Spanish silver mine. You'll probably need to go somewhere where the Spanish ever lived ever. Pennsylvania, not one of those places. And so Joseph is going to be hired out as a day laborer for this, and he's going to work like he's a day laborer back home. And as he tells it, you know, it was never very profitable. And he eventually, you know, prevails upon Josiah Stoll to give it up. But it's pretty clear, according to Joseph Knight, senior, that over that winter that Joseph's staying down there, Joseph thought he'd have much more steady work because that's what Josiah Stoll promised. And he appears to have over promised how much work he had.
Gerrit Now, there are many problems with this. First, the Spanish were never in Pennsylvania. It becomes very difficult to have a Spanish silver mine anywhere where the Spanish never lived. I've always found that that's one of the, it is one of the drawbacks of saying, you know what, let's go find a Spanish silver mine. You'll probably need to go somewhere where the Spanish ever lived ever. Pennsylvania, not one of those places. And so Joseph is going to be hired out as a day laborer for this, and he's going to work like he's a day laborer back home. And as he tells it, you know, it was never very profitable. And he eventually, you know, prevails upon Josiah Stoll to give it up. But it's pretty clear, according to Joseph Knight, senior, that over that winter that Joseph's staying down there, Joseph thought he'd have much more steady work because that's what Josiah Stoll promised. And he appears to have over promised how much work he had.
Gerrit So Joseph Knight tries to pick up the slack, tries to start hiring Joseph out to do side jobs for him, just to try to keep Joseph afloat. And really, when we say Joseph afloat, we mean the Smith family because all of that money is going back to try to help the Smiths. So Joseph's down there hiring out his labor even. And why does he take the job? He takes it because it pays more than the jobs he was getting in Palmyra. Again, the economy has never fully recovered from the Panic of 1819. And so Joseph, even four, five, six years later, is still dealing with lower wages, lower return on your wheat, and the family is still continuing to struggle, in part because when they incurred their debts, they bought all of those things, their land, their house, all of that at the height of the market before the downturn.
Gerrit So Joseph Knight tries to pick up the slack, tries to start hiring Joseph out to do side jobs for him, just to try to keep Joseph afloat. And really, when we say Joseph afloat, we mean the Smith family because all of that money is going back to try to help the Smiths. So Joseph's down there hiring out his labor even. And why does he take the job? He takes it because it pays more than the jobs he was getting in Palmyra. Again, the economy has never fully recovered from the Panic of 1819. And so Joseph, even four, five, six years later, is still dealing with lower wages, lower return on your wheat, and the family is still continuing to struggle, in part because when they incurred their debts, they bought all of those things, their land, their house, all of that at the height of the market before the downturn.
Gerrit I know I said this was going to be our last episode on Moroni, but Richard kind of telegraphed, he knew where we... It's like almost you were a seer there for a second.
Gerrit I know I said this was going to be our last episode on Moroni, but Richard kind of telegraphed, he knew where we... It's like almost you were a seer there for a second.
Richard Almost, almost as though. And also you said before, there's no way I'm going to finish this today. It's almost as though those two things, me being a seer.
Richard Almost, almost as though. And also you said before, there's no way I'm going to finish this today. It's almost as though those two things, me being a seer.
Gerrit Richard saw the future after I said, I'm worried I'm not going to be able to finish if we end up talking about this too much. So we are going to talk about it next week. Hopefully it's not too boring for you, but there's some really cool other aspects because Moroni's interaction with Joseph doesn't stop when Joseph finally gets the plates. It doesn't. In fact, Moroni's tutelage is going to stay with Joseph for a long time after this. And there's at least a couple of experiences that I feel like we need to talk about that we're going to talk about. I apologize to people who don't want to hear about it anymore, but we're going to talk about it next week. Thank you so much for listening.
Gerrit Richard saw the future after I said, I'm worried I'm not going to be able to finish if we end up talking about this too much. So we are going to talk about it next week. Hopefully it's not too boring for you, but there's some really cool other aspects because Moroni's interaction with Joseph doesn't stop when Joseph finally gets the plates. It doesn't. In fact, Moroni's tutelage is going to stay with Joseph for a long time after this. And there's at least a couple of experiences that I feel like we need to talk about that we're going to talk about. I apologize to people who don't want to hear about it anymore, but we're going to talk about it next week. Thank you so much for listening.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.
Quote board
Make a share card from any lineSo where God and Jesus appear is... I love it. I mean, but it's not as financially viable as the Ashery.
If you want to know the greatest compliment you could ever pay me, it is to say that I in any way remind anyone, in any way, even slightly, of Joseph Smith.
People who take the gospel very seriously, but don't take themselves seriously. We need to put that on a t-shirt.
Duolingo did not prepare me for the words that they would use when I was being robbed.
Satan tempts us in ways that make it seem like doing the wrong thing is somehow right.
He is well aware of where our weaknesses are.
Well, I hit my sister at the luncheon after my baptism. So I lasted about 45 minutes.
Salvation and the progress towards exaltation is this daily struggle where we're just trying to make ourselves a little bit better than we were the day before.
Source shelf
14 sources cited on air · verses link to the scriptures, Joseph Smith’s documents to the Joseph Smith Papersletter
Oliver Cowdery, letter to the Church newspaper (discussed in Part 3)
Gerrit recalls Oliver's account of Joseph arguing with himself about the gold on the walk up the hill.
scripture
Joseph Smith—History 1:53
I made an attempt to take them out, but was forbidden by the messenger and was again informed the time for bringing them forth had not yet arrived.
The brief Pearl of Great Price version of the failed first attempt.
journal
Joseph Smith, 1832 history, on the first attempt to get the plates
straightway made three attempts to get them. And then being exceedingly frightened, I supposed it had been a dream of vision.
Joseph tried three times and began to doubt the vision before praying.
journal
Joseph Smith, 1832 history, the angel's rebuke
You have not kept the commandments of the Lord, which I gave unto you. Therefore, you cannot now obtain them, for the time is not yet fulfilled.
Moroni tells Joseph why he can't take the plates.
journal
Joseph Smith, 1832 history, why he was left to temptation
that thou mightest be made acquainted with the power of the adversary. Therefore, repent and call on the Lord, thou shalt be forgiven.
A lesson missing from the Pearl of Great Price account: the temptation was allowed so Joseph would know the adversary's power.
journal
Joseph Smith, 1832 history, his confession
For now I had been tempted of the adversary and sought the plates to obtain riches and kept not the commandment that I should have an eye single to the glory of God.
Joseph names his sin plainly: seeking the plates for riches.
scripture
Joseph Smith—History 1:15-16
The physical attack at the First Vision, contrasted with the subtler temptation at the hill (identified, not cited on air).
article
Pew religion studies and religious polling over the past 20 years
Even people who believe in God increasingly don't believe Satan exists.
record
Nauvoo Relief Society minutes, Joseph Smith's remarks
I have a very subtle devil to deal with, and I can only curb him by being humble.
Joseph's counsel on how he dealt with the adversary.
scripture
Joseph Smith—History 1:53-54
he told me that I should come back to precisely the same place in one year from that time and that he would there meet me
Joseph was to return each year, and received instruction at each interview.
scripture
Joseph Smith—History 1:1
I have been induced to write this history, to disabuse the public mind and put all inquirers after truth in possession of the facts
Why the 1838 history was written: to answer attacks, which makes its admissions of failure striking.
sermon
Joseph Smith, on never claiming to be perfect (source not named on air)
I've never said that I was perfect, but there is no error in the revelations I've received.
Joseph distinguishes his personal imperfection from the revelations he received.
book
Lucy Mack Smith, history, on Alvin's death
Gerrit recommends a box of Kleenex.
record
Joseph Knight Sr., recollection of Joseph's work for Josiah Stowell (Stoll on air) in 1825
Stowell over-promised the work, so Joseph Knight hired Joseph for side jobs to help the Smiths.
Episode quiz
Pass to stamp your passportQuestion 1 of 8Score 0
Which Kirtland site did Richard choose to visit with limited time?
Fun with Numbers
This episode, counted from its transcript59:16long
20.7 minbefore the topic starts
14sources read or named
4scripture passages
7different years mentioned
5dollar amounts said
From 1819 to 1838
Every year mentioned in the episode. Tap one to jump to it.
Money said on air
Percentages said on air
Putting numbers to words
All 9,382 words of the automatic transcript, counted against a word list for each theme. It shows how much a theme comes up, not what was said about it. See the lists
What this episode talks about more than usual
- Money22 mentions, 3.2 times the show’s usual rate
- Missionary work19 mentions, 1.6 times the show’s usual rate
Names said most
Joseph counts any Joseph.
Joseph 94Satan 28Moroni 15Jesus Christ 3Oliver Cowdery 3Sidney Rigdon 2
Signature words
Said often here and in few other episodes.
adversary 15temptation 15tempt 12tempted 9tempting 5questions 4
More from this episode
Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.
Claim check
What critics say, and what the episode foundJoseph Smith walked up the hill and simply picked up the plates on his first try.
Joseph invented his story to make himself look good.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.
Take it to class
Ready to copy into a lesson or a textJoseph's 1832 history admits he tried three times to take the plates for their value and failed, after an angel had warned him about exactly that.
Moroni told Joseph he had been left to temptation so he would learn the power of the adversary, a lesson the Pearl of Great Price version leaves out.
Satan usually tempts us through good desires, like Joseph's wish to rescue his poor family, rather than through anything that looks evil at first.
Joseph kept going back every year for four years; it's a picture of all of us falling short and trying again.
Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.
Banter bin
The running jokes, for people who skip aheadThe Moroni seriesPart 4 of a series promised to end last week; Gerrit says there's not even a chance, and Richard sees it coming like a seer (1:13, 1:37, 57:45).
Season four, Moroni Part 37Also the length of the plural marriage series, and "people want polygamy" (2:04, 2:51).
The crack research staffGerrit reveals it's just Richard on his MacBook (3:14).
Philastus Hurlbutt at ldschurch.orgFake missionary emails pouring in since premium went free to missionaries (4:26, 4:39).
Good teams win, great teams coverBYU gets drummed at West Virginia and doesn't cover unless you had them at 30.5 (4:59, 5:52).
The Kirtland asheryRichard's favorite site for its revenue, $200 a barrel; he wants a multi-parter on it (7:32, 7:56, 9:31).
Officer RWendy considers getting her daughter arrested in Idaho; Officer R, a Jewish convert, was robbed so often in Mexico City he negotiated bus fare back (14:52, 15:08, 20:07).
Defying the Brass Plates on a loopRichard and his sister Sarah can recite the Living Scriptures video; Gerrit wants a reenactment with Richard as Laban (11:54, 12:24, 12:29).
Countdown to not stealing the platesAn advent calendar and paper chains for Joseph's year of preparation (46:21, 46:27).
Joseph the billionaireA rich Joseph wouldn't want another graffitied gold brick, and he picks up a British accent (41:10, 41:26).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag
Your question could be next week’s episodeQuestions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
Go deeperWhere to read more.
Go deeper
Deep dives the episode points towardRead Joseph Smith's 1832 history next to Joseph Smith—History 1:53-54 and compare what each says about the first attempt (24:57).
Lucy Mack Smith's account of Alvin's death and what it meant for the family (53:18).
Joseph's 1825 work for Josiah Stowell in Pennsylvania and Joseph Knight Sr.'s recollections (55:40).
Why belief in a literal Satan is declining even among believers, and what Latter-day Saint teaching adds (34:10).
SOT Litner · S3E46.