Moroni Part 5

Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.

Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, just so close to being doctor. Well, I mean, not according to his committee, Professor Richard LeDuc.

Richard Hello, Gerrit. I did submit the dissertation proposal for approval. I only have probably a series of 38 edits back and forth before pressing on, so I got a congratulations from a co-worker this week that said, congratulations, that's wonderful. And I was like, thank you so much, that's so nice of you. And then I listed out all the steps that are left. And then he said, I'm so sorry for your loss.

Gerrit Right, so it is one of the things that people who haven't gone to graduate school don't realize that it's, you know, it's kind of like the song from Les Mis Robes. There's a grief that can't be spoken. There's a pain goes on and on. It's not so much empty chairs and empty tables, but I mean, it's a cloud that hangs over you.

Richard It's the opening scene, is the way I've seen it. Look down.

Gerrit It's very similar. It is what they do when you first get to graduate school. The main goal is for them to say, you're dumb and you shouldn't be here. I mean, essentially, yeah. You get your first paper back and you're like, I need to call my mom. You're in college, you're in graduate school. I still need to call her.

Richard You're 42.

Gerrit I need to call my mom.

Richard So we start off with the Phebe Draper mailbag. We will be getting to-

Gerrit We should go back and edit that, but we won't.

Richard We won't, because I made the mistake. If Gerrit did it, we'd edit it.

Gerrit If I make a mistake, I come off as just a rose.

Richard I am slurring speech like I've had too many.

Gerrit Three sheets to the wind.

Richard So to the Phebe Draper mailbag, one of the things that is, one of my favorite things that is happening here in these last couple of months is we have opened up the proverbial floodgates to missionaries serving, where we will send them link to the Google Drive that houses all of the premium episodes as well as the other episodes as well. And so we have received, we've been deluged with. Deluged, I put the wrong pronunciation on the wrong thing.

Gerrit You put the emphasis on the wrong syllable.

Richard Deluged by missionary parents sending us their missionary emails. And so we have sent a lot of these out to missionaries and hope that they enjoy them.

Gerrit We figure that's our best business model to try to recoup some of the losses of pay. Yeah. We figure who has more disposable income than missionaries. And so if we could just hook them on giving it to them free for the entire time they're on their mission.

Richard Well, I'll tell you who else does.

Gerrit When they get home.

Richard Well, for my son in Peru who's now been robbed twice, they think that he does.

Gerrit You know what? He has a lot of disposable income. They're gonna help him dispose of it.

Richard Yes. The stories are actually pretty funny. I shouldn't be laughing at them like I am, but the way he tells it, it's pretty funny.

Gerrit Rigdon's always had a great, he's a great storyteller.

Richard He is, he is. So this first email actually comes to us from Erin. She says, please send premium content to her missionary. I was laughing out loud on my way to take my hostage to preschool today. I heard him start laughing too. You guys are great. Sincerely, the best missionary in Brazil's mom, PS, I myself signed up and I never subscribe to anything ever. And she gave the name of her.

Gerrit We got her to cross the Rubicon.

Richard Yes, yes.

Gerrit Now that you've signed up, it's gonna be like when you first signed up for Netflix. You know, like when they first were like, oh yeah, you have to pay a monthly fee for that. They're like, I'm not gonna pay monthly. Okay, maybe I will. And then it was like Amazon Prime and Paramount Plus. And now your entire budget is just streaming services.

Richard Yes. We hope you forget that you signed up and that you're a member for a long, long time, long after we stopped producing premium content.

Gerrit Oh, we've already stopped producing the content. I mean.

Richard Yeah, Gerrit does firesides. I bring a recorder and record them and then just put them on with poor quality.

Gerrit I did a fireside for, well, not a fireside, I did a presentation for the local Mapleton Sons of the Utah Pioneers chapter this last week. No, it was good. Yeah, it was great. It was great times, but none of them knew that, well, I'm pretty sure most of them didn't know that podcasting existed.

Richard By sons of pioneers, you mean they were literally, literally the sons of people that came here.

Gerrit No, I feel like they make exceptions. I feel like they let some of the people in who did cross the planes. Yeah, the actual first, you know.

Richard That's good. Yes. That reminds me of my favorite joke that I tell that is a, it's a bit of a dad joke, but since my family is converts, my wife likes to talk about her family history and that they crossed on the planes, and my family crossed on a plane, a Pan Am flight from Quebec to-

Gerrit You know what? Pan Am doesn't exist anymore.

Richard I know.

Gerrit That's history right there.

Richard I know.

Gerrit That's history right there.

Richard There it is. So, this next one comes to us. So, we have read a couple emails from people. We have friends of the show, a couple come to mind, Officer R, Damien, others, where they send multiple things in. They're very funny. We love them. They're great. But sometimes we read multiple emails from a person. This person emailed in and then we read their email and here we go.

Gerrit They responded to our reading of it.

Richard Because she has two missionaries.

Gerrit Right. So again, it's just going back to the well of, can I get free content for my missionaries?

Richard The answer is always yes, by the way.

Gerrit These are made up email addresses. She doesn't have any kids.

Richard She got her own server, missionary.org.

Gerrit She's like, yeah, it's at churchofjesuschristmissionary.org backslash China.

Richard Subject, a small little caveat. I knew you guys read all your emails in your spare time off air, but I was completely taken back today. Seriously, I was not expecting mine to be read on the podcast. Well, here we're reading it again.

Gerrit We're giving you a twofer. We're just going to check and see. What we assume, Alicia, is that after we read one email, that's it, you'll never, ever, ever listen again. So it's a test.

Richard It is a test. Well, plus we're talking about what humanitarians we are, giving things that already exist for free to missionaries.

Gerrit By this water act alone, I feel like this is a sweet water river. I mean, yes, we could be out helping people at soup kitchens, but you know what's even better? If they had a chance at some premium content.

Richard Let's see, especially with tens of other messages you had to choose from, any of which would have been exceedingly better than mine. You know what? She makes a good point there. No, I think yours was better than most. You should have seen my reaction when Richard started reading. First of all, you should see Becky's reaction when I start reading. I'm a very poor reader. I've gone blind. I can't see.

Gerrit For those of you who envision Richard as a kind of strapping man, I know that what you're thinking as you listen is that he looks essentially like Gaston. We just went and watched my son playing Gaston in the Maple Mountain High School musical. You know what? You might run into me there. I mean, he went from, I've never seen him in glasses, to now he has some that he puts at the end of his nose, as if he was a librarian trying to tell you to be quiet over by the stacks.

Richard Yeah, they've got the pointy rims to them. It's a full marm. Yeah, it's the sweet release of the grave.

Gerrit He likes to blame his faux illiteracy on his eyesight, but I think Becky just blames it on his inability to read.

Richard Sure, it's the Idaho education. Let's see. So as Richard started reading, I don't think my face could have been any redder. Had I known you were going to read mine over the air, I would have put more effort in.

Gerrit You know what? We would have put more effort into the podcast had we known you were listening.

Richard In doing some editing, rather than just voice texting that message into my phone. Furthermore, after listening to Moroni part four, I think I'm going to have to adjust my statement on how similar I imagine Gerrit and Joseph Smith's personalities to be. Don't get me wrong. I still believe that he and Gerrit are kindred spirits in every Anne of Green Gables kind of way. But since the conclusion of Moroni part four dizzyingly admits that your four-part series will now have at least one more episode, I must add a caveat to everything I said in my previous letter. If Joseph Smith were living in 2023, I still honestly imagine him having the personality strikingly similar to Gerrit's, except I think he would not go off on tangents quite as much.

Gerrit Well, that's for certain.

Richard And find a way to condense the podcast episodes into fewer series. Now, if Sidney Rigdon had a podcast, it would just go on and on.

Gerrit So now you're comparing me to Sidney Rigdon?

Richard I am.

Gerrit I'm pretty sure I'm the guardian of the church. This entire podcast has been a way to reel people into my apostate scheme.

Richard Find a way to condense the podcast episodes into fewer series. That being said, Joseph definitely would love College football. I think he would.

Gerrit He likes sports.

Richard I think he would. I still think he would take Oklahoma over BYU.

Gerrit What is it, 24 and a half?

Richard I think it's 24. It started at 20, moved up to 20. I heard from a friend, I guess, I don't want these things.

Gerrit The smart money is on whatever they put.

Richard Whatever the light is, take Oklahoma.

Gerrit Richard and I are going to that Oklahoma BYU game tomorrow. The question I asked Richard is, how quickly will it be 21 to nothing? Within the first three minutes?

Richard The first four minutes? It all depends if BYU receives or kicks.

Gerrit I think it makes no difference, given the fact that we give a pick six on our first play, two games in a row.

Richard As I get older, the only thing I ever want to do is beat traffic. That's all I've ever wanted to do.

Gerrit It is fun to go with Richard to a game, because you get in there, you find your seats, you're like, oh man, what a lovely day. Well, we better get going. They haven't even kicked off yet. I know. But if we leave now, we'll beat the traffic.

Richard The buddies of mine that I travel do the BYU road trip with. They're my real friends. First score of the game, no matter when it is, whatever it is.

Gerrit Wrap it up.

Richard Wrap it up. Let's go. Let's hit this beach traffic. He would love college football. Plus he'd be politically knowledgeable and active just like Gerrit. But we know from history, Joseph's enemies would be far more numerous than Gerrit's. Gerrit is growing his enemies list.

Gerrit I have lots of people who hate me, but yeah, no one's pulled me out of my bed and beaten me in the middle of the road yet.

Richard They have not. I know that it's hard to believe because of all the hate mail that's said to Standard of Truth, but I'm pretty sure.

Gerrit We do receive some hate mail.

Richard It is actually my favorite thing. It is ridiculous how much I enjoy the mail that tells us that we're terrible. It is actually my favorite.

Gerrit But first of all, we know.

Richard Yeah, we're well aware. It's like, I tell us every day.

Gerrit When you walk up to someone who, you know, when you walk up to an ugly person and you tell them that they're ugly, what do you think they're like, Oh man.

Richard No, I've never seen a mirror.

Gerrit Yeah, thanks.

Richard Let's see. Sorry. So many tangents I lose.

Gerrit I like how Alicia has adopted our purpose.

Richard Ba ba ba, something, something, ba ba ba. Okay. Also, to my knowledge, unlike Joseph, Gerrit has not run for office. However, anything could happen this next election year. And I mean anything. Well, that's pretty true.

Gerrit There's some things that won't happen, and that's one of them.

Richard So I'm searching for a good, honest, moral, God-fearing, trustworthy presidential candidate to back. Well, all those are eliminators for Gerrit.

Gerrit Well, first of all, they're eliminators for everyone. Good, honest, and scene. I mean, that's moral and scene. I mean, so good luck with that.

Richard And after listening to the condemned to repeated episodes, it's clear Gerrit fits this mold, plus has an understanding and a real love for the proper roles of government. And with that, I'd easily put a bid for him as our next presidential candidate.

Gerrit Wow, that is the first time anyone's endorsed me for president. And you know what? The power's gone directly to my head. As soon as I got a little authority, as I supposed, I immediately...

Richard He's rounding up snake handlers and Presbyterians.

Gerrit That's right. I don't believe in religious freedom anymore.

Richard Anyway, this letter is way too long. I need to sum it up. Thanks for the great show and no thanks for embarrassing me. Alicia, we would never do that.

Gerrit Luckily, you just got embarrassed again.

Richard PS. Tell Angie and Becky, I love their taste in movies. PS. Our family's favorite living scripture quote is also Laman and Lemuel. I think it's getting lighter.

Gerrit I'm getting stronger.

Richard Yeah, that's good. And our second most favorite quote is in the series, Mash him in bits, NADAB. Now, in the Good Samaritan. Now, we had the one free one.

Gerrit Yeah, I never saw that one.

Richard No, I haven't seen it either.

Gerrit But growing up in Idaho, it seemed like the living scriptures were like a billion dollars. I mean, I remember when they were first coming out, and I don't exactly remember how old I was, but I remember thinking that you had to decide whether or not you were going to college or whether you got the living scriptures. Now, maybe they're much more inexpensive.

Richard Well, for my parents, it was like, well, he's not going to college. We'll get this one free one.

Gerrit So did your dad sign up telling them that he was going to buy the whole set?

Richard So they had things at the fair, like exhibits or booze or whatever, and you'd go and be like, well, you can try this one, and if you like it, you can give me, oh yeah, we'll try this one. We'll give you a call, yeah, sure.

Gerrit So your dad just lied to living scriptures?

Richard Well, I wasn't there for it. I'm sure. But I know that we had it. I know that's the only thing we were allowed to watch. And I know that my sister and I watched it over and over and over again. It's great. Let's see. PPS, there are, these are my Missionary Kids emails. I don't think that my daughter is allowed to listen to you guys, but it doesn't hurt to send her the link.

Gerrit We have helped Missionaries break the rules before, Alicia.

Richard I'm wrong. So this is actually why we do the Google Drive for Missionaries, is because they're.

Gerrit Not allowed to click on Google Drives.

Richard Some Missionaries are allowed to do that.

Gerrit And then others we've learned just illegally listen to it.

Richard Yeah, I mean.

Gerrit Even when it's their job to go through and delete it.

Richard And nothing stopped my son from listening to you guys before his mission, so I'm pretty sure nothing will stop him now.

Gerrit He's after our own heart.

Richard He's just started his first week in the field, and he'd love the link to your content. That's awesome. So one of the things that's great, we try to, I tell my kids, the MTC ain't your mission. And once you get out in the field, it's just...

Gerrit Which is tough, because if you end up being that MTC district leader, then you want it to be your mission.

Richard Oh, yeah. You don't ever want to leave.

Gerrit Alicia, congratulations on having both of those kids out at the same time. What a sacrifice you're making as a mother, and I mean, not only are they making that, I mean, no one here in this room has any idea what it's like to have two missionaries out at once.

Richard Well, financially, I am aware. I will say, I will say it is, this is a relatively recent thing, and it is kind of the sweetest thing ever, to get these emails from listeners who have kids out on missions and to be able, we hope that they like it, we hope that they listen, we hope that specifically with Joseph Smith and the Restoration episodes, gain a greater understanding of the apostasy, the restoration, the things, the beliefs that we respect and love about our Christian brothers and sisters, but a greater context to coming into Joseph Smith that we're excited to get into in season seven of that.

Gerrit At some point.

Richard Yeah, we're about to spend about a month and a half, oh no, no, a month and a half of episodes, like six, seven episodes on Calvin.

Gerrit Well, I mean, we've already spent a considerable amount of time on Calvin. I believe Josh told us that he was already done with Calvin. I was like, Josh, I haven't even recorded it, and Calvin is like, yeah, that's how done I am.

Richard A friend of the show, Josh, yeah, he's done. Well, Josh, we've got four more coming.

Gerrit Josh is probably going to stop listening to... I feel like we're giving people depression when we talk about Calvinism.

Richard His theology is logically very strong.

Gerrit Look, it's logically sound, it's also terrible. So, yeah.

Richard And speaking of terrible, Moroni part five.

Gerrit You know what, let's talk about this. I mean, we ended off talking about... You know, Joseph's repeated failures to get the plates. And I know we could have ended it there. I know that most of you wanted me to end it. I know Richard wanted me to end it, especially because we said, hey, this is the last episode.

Richard We never do multi-parters and here we go, part five.

Gerrit But I do think that there are some aspects of Moroni's tutelage of Joseph that I want to talk about, plus some later commentary and discussion about Moroni. And so I want to spend a little more time, because Joseph doesn't even have the plates yet, right? So again, he can't get them in 1823. He can't get them in 1824. He can't get them in 1825. He can't get them in 1826. Every year he's going back, and every year the angel is appearing to him. So I can only imagine that every year there is a sense of disappointment that Joseph has prepared the entire year to be worthy to get these plates, and every year he's not. Then in 1827, something pretty momentous happens, and that is that Joseph Smith gets married. I don't know, because Joseph never tells us, you wouldn't expect him to, but I don't know what the impact is on Joseph Smith to marry Emma in his preparation to get the plates and to become the prophet of the restoration.

Gerrit But I will say, look, I realize that correlation is not causation. I realize that. But let me put it this way. In 1823, Joseph Smith can't get the plates. In 1824, Joseph Smith can't get the plates. In 1825, Joseph Smith can't get the plates. In 1826, Joseph Smith can't get the plates. In 1827, Joseph Smith marries Emma and he gets the plates. Now, you know what? Could be a happy coincidence. But honestly, I think that we don't realize what a grounding aspect she has to his life because she embraces his role. I mean, she goes against her family, embracing that Joseph has been called as a prophet and a seer even before he has obtained these plates. And so in 1827, Joseph gets married, and because they eloped, he asked for Isaac Hale's blessing, and he did not get it.

Gerrit In fact, he was flatly refused. And so they run off to get married, and after that, they moved to Palmyra because Emma's pretty sure her dad's not exactly going to welcome them with open arms. While they're there, there's an event involving Moroni that Lucy tells us in her book that Joseph has gone somewhere, and he's supposed to be back by a certain time. And the day goes on, and there's no Joseph. Now, it's during this same time period that Lucy tells us that someone actually took a shot at Joseph. Someone shot, you know, tried to shoot at him randomly. And so they are already pretty concerned for his safety and for his well-being. And so as the hours go by, and there's still no Joseph, people are starting to get very concerned.

Gerrit They're starting to get worried. Lucy is wondering, what is going on with my boy? Finally, Joseph comes in the door, and he looks disheveled. He looks like he's had a rough day. He looks like, you know, Richard putting his readers on, essentially. He looks like what Richard and I are going to look like four minutes into the BYU game tomorrow.

Richard When we've left to beat traffic.

Gerrit We're already going to be home. You know what? We should just give them money for the tickets and not go.

Richard The best way to beat traffic, both ways.

Gerrit That's the only way to beat it, both ways. Anyway, Joseph looks rough, and he comes in, and of course, you know, Lucy and Father Smith are like, you know, son, what happened to you? We were worried, you know? And Joseph says, I have just taken the severest chastisement that I have ever had in my life. Well, Father Smith, he gets his dander up, so to speak. So what he thinks happens, as Joseph said, I've just taken the severest chastisement, he thinks that some of the local ruffians have grabbed a hold of Joseph and screamed at him and yelled at him. And even though Joseph is now a married adult, right, Father Smith is going to go defend his son. And so he's like, you tell me who spoke to my son this way and I'm going to go down. So Father Smith, he's ready to go. He is ready to go find that person and take them to task. And Joseph has to say, stop, Father, stop.

Gerrit It was the angel of the Lord. So sometime in 1827, Joseph's walking by, he says, as I passed by the Hill Cumorah, where the plates are, the angel met me and said that I had not been engaged enough in the work of the Lord, that the time had come for that record to be brought forth and that I must be up and doing and set myself about the things which God had commanded me to do. But Father, Joseph said, give yourself no uneasiness concerning this, concerning the reprimand that I have received. For I now know the course that I am to pursue, so all will be well. Now, wouldn't you love to be a fly on the wall for this? We don't know what Moroni said to Joseph in this appearance. But Joseph at least described it as the most severe chastisement that I've ever had in my life.

Gerrit Now, all the other times that Moroni has appeared to Joseph, Moroni has come off pretty soft, honestly, right? I mean, he's told Joseph, well, Joseph, because you were trying to steal the plates, you can't get them. But then, he keeps telling, God's forgiven you of your sins, God's forgiven you of your sins, you're still blessed by God. Apparently, this time, Moroni had had enough. I'd like to picture Moroni the same way that I think of my own parenting, right? Where, you know, I'm going to let that slide because I love him and he probably shouldn't do it, but I'm not going to say anything. And then he does it again. I'm not going to say anything. And then again, and then by the time you get to the fourth, oh, wait, can you just stop? And I actually haven't said anything to him yet, right? But I blow up the fourth time as if I've told him a hundred times because in my head I've said, he better stop doing that. He better stop doing that. He doesn't do that. He better not do that again. You know what? I'm a good dad. And then you blow up like Mount Vesuvius.

Gerrit So I think that Moroni is like, okay, I have tried the Gerrit approach. I have been kind. I've appeared to you over and over and over again. When are you going to change? I don't know what Moroni said to him, but the way that Joseph described it is I've taken the severest chastisement that I've ever had in my life. But somewhere in that chastisement, Joseph found the answer of how he was going to focus his life in order to be able to get the place. So that's why I wish we knew what Moroni said. I mean, this is one of the appearances of Moroni that we don't really talk about. I mean, we do... Everybody knows he appears the three times in one night in Joseph's room. We talk a little bit less about the fact that he appeared the next day. And then we hardly talk at all about the fact that when he can't get the plates, the angel appears to him and says, hey, you can't get them because you were trying to make money off of them.

Gerrit Here's yet another appearance. And again, the role that the angel takes is to instruct and chastise Joseph to try to help make him the man that the Lord knows Joseph can be if Joseph can just get outside of himself.

Richard So this one is... this is the one where he seems to get it then.

Gerrit At least that's how Lucy describes it, that Joseph says to his father, don't worry about this. I now know the course that I'm to pursue, so all be well. Well, the proof is in the pudding. I mean, that Joseph finally is able to go get the plates. He takes Emma with him, which is another signal of just, I think, how crucial Emma is in this whole process of changing Joseph. He goes and he's finally able to obtain the plates, but he's so worried that people have followed him to where he was going to get the plates that he doesn't take them very far. He hides them in the old stump of a log and covers them up with leaves and makes a plan to go back again when he doesn't think people are watching. And even then, he's attacked three times bringing the plates home. I mean, you think about that, I know we've told that story before, but maybe I'll just read that again.

Gerrit This is from Lucy's book as well. After Joseph gets the plates and he's trying to bring them home, this is what she explains, that after proceeding a short distance, he thought he'd be more safe to leave the road and to go through the woods. Traveling some distance after he left the road, so now he's just out in the middle of the woods. People can't follow me if I'm not on the road. He came to a large windfall, and as he was jumping over a log, a man sprang up from behind and gave him a heavy blow with a gun. Joseph turned around and knocked him down, and then ran at the top of his speed. About half a mile further, he was attacked again in the same manner as before. He knocked this man down in like manner as he had the former, and ran on again. And before he reached home, he was assaulted a third time. In striking this last one, he dislocated his thumb, which he did not notice until he had come inside of the house when he threw himself down in the corner of the fence in order to recover his breath.

Gerrit As soon as he was able to, he arose, he came into the house and he was all together speechless from fright and from the fatigue of running. How quickly Joseph is going to go from being someone who could not keep the evil thought out of his mind that he could make money off the plates to someone who was physically defending the plates. You can see the reason why Joseph had to be a changed person before he actually obtained them. Because the moment he got them, he was immediately physically attacked. And like I've said before on this podcast, I've always thought we're missing an opportunity in primary. The reenactment of this story would have every primary kid involved. You've got kids jumping up from behind logs and attempting to punch Joseph as he's running.

Richard That'd be a great primary program.

Gerrit And then you have the Joseph child punch that kid.

Richard On the stand.

Gerrit Oh, and knocking them down. And eventually one of them has to punch them so hard that they break their thumb. It's funny, I saw an anti-Mormon meme the other day because that's where my life has devolved. And it was someone mocking this story. The church honestly wants us to believe that somehow Joseph Smith ran a mile with 50 pounds in his arms. And I'm like, I hope there aren't any Navy SEALs reading this meme, who have like 120 pounds that they're carrying as they run for far more than a mile. But you're right, no one would ever have the ability, especially if they were blessed by God, to do something like that. I mean, God's never done anything before. I mean, he's never parted 11 billion gallons of water for people to walk through. I mean, just, those kinds of arguments are silly, stupid arguments.

Richard You're gonna have to have, likely the older, I've been giving this a decent amount of thought, you're gonna have to have the older primary kid that breaks his hand, the younger kid's not gonna be able to do it, their hands are, their bones are too soft.

Gerrit I see, right, so we need an actual broken hand is what you're saying.

Richard Well, absolutely.

Gerrit Okay, yeah, I think there's a reason why we won't serve in primary presidencies.

Richard Or primary at all.

Gerrit Yeah, they won't even let us be a teacher.

Richard Well, with comments like, well, you need an older kid so he can break his hand because younger kids, they won't break it. I mean, he'll hurt it, he'll sprain it, but it won't break.

Gerrit I think that just demonstrates that we understand the physiology of, you know, CTR-9 children or whatever it is. So Joseph, he goes from not being pure enough to obtain the plates to almost immediately having people trying to hurt him, kill him. I mean, they have guns. I mean, I don't know what their plan is to have to physically defend the plates. You know, we've talked about this before. It is such a contradictory thing that you have people for the rest of Joseph Smith's life that will claim that he never, ever, ever, ever had plates and he just made that all up. And yet, the moment Joseph has plates, people are assaulting him. They're stopping him in the road and searching his wagon to see if they can find him. They're breaking into his home. They're getting a necromancer and bringing him to Joseph's house to try to find where the plates are buried.

Gerrit That's not the actions of people who are certain Joseph is just a liar and that he lies about everything. If you know that Joseph Smith's a liar, you don't try to break into his house and commit a home invasion to find the plates that you know he's lying about because he's a liar.

Richard But the claims of him being a liar, these are claims that are much later when they didn't find the plates. I mean, these people aren't calling him a liar at the time.

Gerrit Well, sure, but what people will say, these reminiscent accounts, people will be like, oh yeah, everyone knew the Smiths were liars. Everyone knew they just told stories and they lied about everything.

Richard Well, yeah, because they never found the plates.

Gerrit They don't really say that. They aren't so direct as to say, well, we know that they don't have plates. Because I tried to murder him and steal the plates. You know what's interesting? They don't say that. What? Yeah, it's very interesting that when they're giving their affidavits, they don't say, hey, I tried to commit multiple felonies in an effort to get these plates. They just, they don't. It's a very, it's one of those odd things of history is that rarely do people say, I committed these felonies.

Richard So when Philastus Hurlbut, after he attended journalism school and was really pressing them on their affidavits, he didn't get to the heart of it.

Gerrit Well, I feel like had he really pushed, have he said, you know what, I'm going to cross-examine you a little bit. You know, the reality is those later claims that the Smiths are dishonest, that all they did was tell stories, all coming from that first anti-Mormon book, Mormonism Unveiled, they are all later claims. And, you know, Brigham Young will talk about this multiple times in Utah that there weren't, people were not generally speaking about Joseph Smith at all as a liar until he got the plates. Once he got the plates, it was like a light switch went on for the antagonists of the way that they began to persecute him. That persecution just, you know, doubled and tripled. Now, there's some more Moroni stuff I want to get to, and there's a lot of it. And so I'm hoping, okay, I'll shut up. We're going to have to like never read an email again.

Richard Well, that'll make Rex's elders quorum president.

Gerrit It'll make him very happy. And this is a different Rex than the Rex that's married to Miriam.

Richard Yes, that's correct.

Gerrit Yeah, different Rex.

Richard It'll make all Rex's elders quorum presidents very happy. And their elders quorum presidents will be very happy.

Gerrit Yes, I assume every elders quorum president and every Rex.

Richard I love that you said we've got a lot of stuff. I don't know that we'll have time to get to it. And then we spent a minute talking about Rex's elders quorum president.

Gerrit I feel like that's what Rex wanted from us.

Richard I know it is.

Gerrit Yeah. The reason why I say that we're not done with this is that Moroni's tutelage with Joseph doesn't end just because Joseph finally has the place. Joseph is going to, you know, we can't go through all those events now. That's for the premium content. But he's going to begin this arduous translation with Martin Harris, with Emma Smith, and they're going to start to get all, you know, they're going to make a pretty good headway throughout 1828. And then Joseph is going to realize that he's incurred the displeasure of God again at the hands of Moroni. This is another part of the 116 pages story that we rarely think about. I mean, usually we're just so focused on Martin Harris getting the pages and losing them, which, look, that's a pretty big deal, that's a pretty big story, that we forget that Moroni is actually involved in this as well.

Gerrit Because we all know the story that Martin Harris, you know, asked, can I take the pages? Joseph asked God, and God says no. So then Joseph asks again. God says no. Finally, Joseph presses a third time, and the Lord says fine, but you have to covenant to only show it to these certain people. Well, what we often think, or at least I won't indict you, what I thought before I studied this in depth, I always assumed that because they lost the pages, that Joseph lost his ability to translate for a while, that he lost the plates, and he lost the Urim and Thummim, the seer stones, because they lost the pages. They broke the covenant. That's actually not how he loses the plates. He loses the plates because he asked the third time. Long before those pages are lost and before Joseph is aware of what happens, the angel takes the plates and the seer stones from him because he had wearied the Lord and asking him for the third time.

Gerrit So once again, here is Moroni. But Moroni isn't there to say, hey Joseph, your sins are all forgiven you. Now Moroni is there to say, Joseph, you've lost the plates. This is before they've lost the 116 pages. You've lost the plates because you disobeyed the Lord. The Lord said no, he can't take them. And then you asked again. And then you asked again. Remember the reason why Joseph couldn't get the plates in the first place. Because I did not have an eye single to the glory of God. That's what he said. Well, why does he want Martin Harris to be able to take the pages?

Richard He wants Martin Harris to take the pages because Martin Harris is going to be the financier for the printing of the Book of Mormon, and he's the only person that's not with the last name that isn't Smith that even remotely believes anything he's saying.

Gerrit Everyone has rejected everything that Joseph said, and the angel has told Joseph that Joseph is going to be the means of publishing this book to the world. We've used this number before on the podcast, but I mean, it is a stark thing to think about. The cost of printing the Book of Mormon, the $3,000, is essentially 12 or 13 times the annual salary of a wage laborer like Joseph in the United States in 1828. So it's essentially impossible. Or to put it another way.

Richard Four thousand bushels of wheat.

Gerrit We're going to do everything in bushels of wheat now. How many bushels of wheat is that? When are you taking your price of that wheat? Is that 1828? That's what I'm saying.

Richard Is it 85 cents? Is that 271?

Gerrit Well, so Joseph Smith, his farm that he eventually buys from his father-in-law, who does not give him a good deal on it, he buys a farm that has a house on it, and it's almost 14 acres, right next to the river, for $200. And he doesn't, when I say he bought it, I mean he bought it on credit, and then he has to make payments, and then he isn't able to make payments. So the cost of printing the Book of Mormon is 15 times Joseph Smith's entire net worth if he did own his house, which he didn't. Talk about something being impossible. When Martin Harris is so upset because of the opposition of his family that it seems like Joseph might lose him in the work, like he may not be a part of this anymore.

Gerrit Joseph, you know, again, it was a righteous desire. It's a righteous desire to want your family to not be in poverty. It's not a righteous desire to want your family to not be in poverty by somehow stealing the plates to not have them in poverty. And once again here, is it a righteous desire that you can placate Martin Harris so that you can have a means of paying for the Book of Mormon?

Richard I mean, if I put myself in Joseph's spot here, what he's asking, what Martin Harris is asking is reasonable. It's a reasonable ask.

Gerrit Yeah. I can't show them the plates. You can't show the plates to anyone, but you never said anything about what we've translated. I mean, they're trying to find a loophole, right? Like when you're trying to find a way to take an extra vacation day at work, like, no, wait a minute. They said if it falls on the second Thursday.

Richard There isn't malicious intent, but it's the not trusting, it's not trusting in God.

Gerrit So he was not able to get the plates for the four years, always because he had these earthly, secular, material concerns that were trumping the icing on the glory of God. And look, again, those are totally natural concerns. I know that we all say things like, well, if the prophet told me to leave my house and move to Missouri, I'd do it. You know what, given the last couple of years watching how people that I know who really believe that they have really strong testimonies, watching them criticize and not follow the prophet, I don't think so. I think if President Nelson were to say, you know what, it's time to leave your house and move to Missouri, there would be a whole lot of people that would say, well, I mean, he's not a real estate agent.

Richard Interest rates are 8.3, markets down.

Gerrit I just feel like we're not going to be able to get our money back on this. You know what, I'm going to wait. He's a heart doctor. It's not like he's a real estate agent. And you think I'm kidding, but if you've read any of your social media, you know that I'm not, right? Because people found ways, like it says in Helaman, to reject the prophets and seek all manner of ways to destroy him. And you will say that he's a false prophet and that he's of the devil because he testified that your deeds are evil. So the reality is for Joseph, he had this years-long odyssey to put the kingdom of God first. But man, that world is strong. And again, you can see how the temptations work. It is not the temptation anymore to just steal the plates. It's the temptation to try to figure out how you're going to pay for the printing of the Book of Mormon without relying on God, right?

Gerrit As if God, and when he is chastised, it's one of the things that God says to him, I have the ability to do my own work, right? Remember, it is not the work of God that is frustrated, but the work of man. God is not going to just not be able to figure out how to get the Book of Mormon published. So one of the things that Joseph has to learn is that, you know, like Laman and Lemuel, even when it doesn't seem like there's any possible way that this could be done, that's when you actually have to have faith. When you need faith most is when there doesn't seem to be any possible way to succeed. But God said that it's going to happen, and so you do it. And Joseph wasn't there yet. Again, it's a righteous desire to want to find a way to print that Book of Mormon because it's what the angel told him he had to do.

Gerrit That's a righteous desire. But the Lord said, no, don't give him the pages. And the world is what caused Joseph to ask again. Look, if I was Martin, I don't have anybody. I don't have any money. I don't have any friends. I don't have anyone who believes me. There's no possible way that I can get this done without Martin. You don't understand God. I have to have Martin. And so I think he loses the plates for that very reason before the 116 pages are gone. Now, that places Joseph in a pretty rough spot. When he then finds out that the 116 pages are gone, what Joseph says is that he's lost his soul. What he says to Martin Harris is, have you broken your oath and brought down condemnation upon my head as well as on your own?

Gerrit And then Joseph goes back. The way Lucy describes it is, groans and sobs filled the entire house. Now, you and I, we all know the end of this story. We know, I mean, well, I mean, maybe there is a casual Presbyterian listening right now, like, wait a minute, does he ever get the plates back? I mean, maybe, right? But we all know the end of the story and know the nature of our Father in Heaven because of Joseph Smith. Joseph doesn't know it yet. Sure, he's had these miraculous experiences, but he hasn't received the revelations yet that help explain his relationship to God. He lives in a world where when God passes condemnation upon you, it's forever, right?

Gerrit God doesn't make mistakes. So when God condemns you, it's not like, oh, I condemn you. You know what? Not anymore. So Joseph goes back to Harmony, and I think he goes back totally believing that I've lost everything. I've already lost the plates. I already offended God so much that the angel came and took them. And now I've lost the pages. I am eight years into this odyssey, and I am literally back to where I was when I was first in that grove of trees. I have nothing to show for it, only it's actually worse than when I first went in for the First Vision, because now I'm under the condemnation of God. It's not just that I'm a sinner, I'm under the condemnation of God.

Gerrit We made an oath with God that we would protect the pages and that we wouldn't show them to anyone else, and Martin Harris not only showed them to other people, he lost them. Everything's gone. Imagine coming back to Harmony to tell that to your wife, who spent months as your scribe translating those pages, who has just lost their first baby and nearly died in that delivery. I can't imagine a lower point for Joseph's life. I know things are rough in Liberty, but here Joseph doesn't know the Lord the same way that he'll know him after he receives more revelation on him.

Richard You've mentioned before that the idea of, you know, the predestination of things, that a person is poor because they don't have God's favor. I don't know that we have anything on this, but I've got to imagine the additional weight of the death of their child weighs heavy on the fact that he's a condemned man.

Gerrit I always think the same thing. I mean, think about this. An angel came and said, you haven't been keeping the commandments the right way. Give me the plates back. Look, Joseph received a lot of rebukes. He hasn't ever had the plates taken from him before. And right after that, they lose their first child. Look, I don't know, because neither one of them talk about it. But I have to believe that somewhere in their minds, they were thinking, this is our fault. This is our fault because we're sinners. Remember, the world that they grew up in was a world in which if you offended God, that was it. If you weren't someone who was saved, that is it. To quote from Jonathan Edwards again, God abhors you.

Gerrit God hates you. Why does he hate you? Because you're a sinner. He has dreadfully provoked. His wrath towards you burns like fire. And then because you're a sinner, what's hell going to be like? It would be dreadful to suffer the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God for one moment. But you must suffer it for all eternity. There will be no end to this exquisite horrible misery. When you look forward, you shall see a long forever, a boundless duration before you which will swallow up your thoughts and amaze your soul. And you will absolutely despair of ever having any deliverance, any end, any mitigation, any rest at all. You will know certainly that you must wear out long ages, millions and millions of ages in wrestling with this almighty merciless vengeance. And then, when you have done so, when so many ages have actually been spent by you in this manner, you will know that that's all but a point to what remains.

Gerrit So that your punishment will indeed be infinite. Protestants aren't screwing around when it comes to descriptions of hell. This is the only understanding of hell that Joseph Smith would have had at this point. So as he goes back to harmony, having lost everything, believing he's under the condemnation of God, this is the hell that would have been in his mind. And once again, enter Moroni. He gets back to his house down there, and as he describes it, immediately after my return home to harmony, I was walking out a little distance when behold the former heavenly messenger appeared and handed to me the Urim and Thummim again, for it had been taken from me in consequence of my having wearied the Lord in asking for the privilege of letting Martin Harris take the writings which he lost, and I inquired of the Lord through them and obtained the following revelation.

Gerrit That revelation is Doctrine and Covenants, Section 3, which chastises Joseph and tells him, you shouldn't have feared man more than God, but then goes on to say, remember, God is merciful. Repent and you are still called to the work. So the angel Moroni is the person who reappears to Joseph to deliver to him this message that all is not lost. I mean, how beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of them that preach. In this case, this angel, Moroni, he has worked hard with Joseph for the better part of a decade at this point, trying to pull him along, to get him to where he needs to be. Now, it's not the end of Moroni in Latter-day Saint theology and experiences.

Gerrit Of course, we all know that it's Moroni that's going to appear again to the Three Witnesses. And that's again a double appearance because he appears to two of the witnesses and then they got to go off and find Martin Harris. He's like, you know, I'm not worthy to see the angel. And then he does. And so the angel is going to appear to him. We know through other sources that the angel Moroni is going to actually appear to other people and they'll have a similar experience. Lyman Johnson, who's one of the apostles, he will desire to have the same experience that the Three Witnesses had, namely the angel coming and showing him the plates. And that will happen. So Moroni is going to appear with that as well. Joseph is going to talk about Moroni a lot in his writings and his teachings. In 1838, there's an Elders Journal article that Joseph is the editor of the Elders Journal.

Gerrit And he goes through a series of questions that people have for the Mormonites basically. The fourth question is, how and where did you obtain the Book of Mormon? Joseph's answer. Moroni, the person who deposited the plates from once the Book of Mormon was translated in a hill in Manchester, Ontario County. Being dead and raised again therefrom, appeared unto me and told me where they were and gave me directions how to obtain them. And I obtained them and the Urim and Thummim with them, by which means I translated the plates and thus came the Book of Mormon. Interestingly here, Joseph is saying something that would have been completely rejected by other Christians. Again, we have a whole episode on this, right?

Gerrit Every time a bell rings, an angel doesn't get their wings. We're coming up on the Christmas season.

Richard We are, yeah.

Gerrit Would you really just replay that as a bonus?

Richard Oh, I'm planning on it.

Gerrit Richard's looking to take a long vacation over. We had someone ask us, do you guys ever just like take weeks off and not put anything out? The thought hadn't really occurred to us at that point.

Richard That's a great idea.

Gerrit Frankly, I feel like we're so desperately hanging on by a thread, by the spider. The gossiper's thread. The gossiper's thread that the sword of Damocles hangs over, hangs over our podcast that we figure if we go even two days without putting new content out, everyone's like, I already didn't want to listen.

Richard Yeah, next year we're going to a daily podcast.

Gerrit They spent 13 minutes talking about whether or not BYU is going to lose in the first, and we didn't spend that long, but we will have people tell us that.

Richard That's true. We did spend that much time talking about how calcified a hand needs to be in order to get it to break for a primary child.

Gerrit Yeah, I feel like that was a far more useful, I mean, that's stuff you want to take home.

Richard Well, we're trying to give tips to the primary presidencies out there.

Gerrit Yeah, I mean, look, I'm just putting it out there. If you have a primary program where you reenact Joseph running with the plates, it'll be the best, everyone will love it.

Richard Yeah, send us the time and we'll show up and what? That'll be tremendous.

Gerrit It doesn't matter where it is. Mexico City, we're there. So Joseph, you notice how he highlights this, that it's Moroni that teaches him. Joseph, of course, in 1838, beginning in 1838, it's not going to be published until later, is going to start writing the history of the church where Joseph Smith history in the Pearl Great Prize comes from, where again, what does he highlight? He highlights that role of Moroni. Interestingly, we actually have one of the apostles in Joseph Smith's time who will talk about the fact that Moroni holds keys. Now Joseph will obliquely reference this in his, in his letter to the church, which will later be canonized as Doctrine and Covenants, section 128. But David W. Patton, who is the most senior apostle after Thomas Marsh's apostasy, he is going to say this about Moroni. He's going to say, Now, my readers, when you can see in some degree the grace that's given to this man of God to usward, that we, by the great mercy of God, should receive from under his hand the gospel of Jesus Christ, and having the promise of partaking the fruit of the vine on the earth with him.

Gerrit He's quoting here from Doctrine and Covenants, section 27, which makes this reference to Moroni being a part of this great millennial day. So David W. Patton is quoting a revelation here. Should receive under his hand the gospel of Jesus Christ, having the promise of partaking the fruit of the vine on earth with him, and with the holy prophets and the patriarchs, our fathers. For these holy men are angels now. Again, we kind of teased it. You should go back to our angels' episode.

Richard I'll link it.

Gerrit We're going to drop it as a bonus.

Richard I'll link it.

Gerrit We're going to drop it as a bonus.

Richard I'll link it to this as well.

Gerrit One of the most unique aspects of Latter-day Saint theology that you've never thought about is that Christians do not believe that angels are people. They believe angels are creations. That angels are a type of being that was created, just like man was created out of nothing, because nothing existed in the beginning. God created man out of nothing. God created angels out of nothing. He created them as special types of beings that were different from humans. Here, all over this theology, Joseph is teaching, angels are actually people who lived on this earth and have been resurrected. That is radical theology. Here, David W. Patton is quoting the same thing. For these holy men are angels now, and these are they who make the fullness of times complete with us, and they who sin against this authority given to him, the before mentioned man of God, Joseph Smith, sins not against him only, but against Moroni, who holds the keys of the stick of Ephraim, and also with Elias, who holds the keys of bringing to pass the restitution of all things or the restoration of all things, and also John the son of Zacharias, which Zacharias, Elias, visited and gave promises that his son should have a son and that his name should be John, and that he should be filled with the spirit of Elias, which John I have sent unto you, my servants, Joseph Smith Jr.

Gerrit and Oliver Cowdery, to ordain you to this first priesthood even as Aaron, and also Elijah, who holds the keys of committing the power to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children and the hearts of the children of the fathers, that the whole earth may not be smitten with a curse. He's going to go on and say, and also with Joseph and Jacob and Isaac and Abraham and your fathers, by whom the promises remain, and also Michael or Adam, the father of all, the prince of all, the ancient of days, and also Peter, James and John. So he's really just quoting Doctrine and Covenants, section 27 here. But the point is that these angelic ministerants, these resurrected beings, these holy men from the past that have been resurrected and now angelically minister and that they provided authority and keys to the Prophet Joseph is a central part of Latter-day Saint theology. Joseph, of course, is going to, you know, once you say that angels are resurrected beings, you get another unique aspect of Latter-day Saint theology, and that is, well, who were these angels then?

Gerrit We have Michael the Archangel, which every Christian knows who Michael the Archangel is, but only Latter-day Saints believe that Michael the Archangel is Adam. In fact, that would be a hateful concept to a Christian, because Christians hate Adam. They believe Adam destroyed the world. So no, he's not the great Archangel Michael, who is a great and holy being graded by God. Gabriel is mentioned. But here, Joseph, this is Joseph speaking in sometime in the summer. We don't know the exact date of 1839. This is Woolard Richards recording this. It says, The angel flying through the midst of heaven, Moroni, delivered the Book of Mormon. Joseph is going to link the angel Moroni to the quote from Revelation that Christians know very well.

Gerrit But Revelation chapter 8, verse 13, Behold, I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, and he had the everlasting gospel to preach. Joseph says that that angel is the same angel Moroni. The reason why Moroni ends up atop many of our temples is because Joseph says the angel Moroni is the one who had that ability to give that gospel to the world. And he struggles with Joseph, mentors Joseph, chastises Joseph, brings forgiveness from God to Joseph. He's also going to be the one who's the caretaker of those plates. Joseph will eventually give the plates back to that same angel who will then take them somewhere, save take them back to God. When we understand the story of Joseph and the Odyssey with Moroni, I think it should help give all of us not only some insight into the past, but hopefully gives us some insight into our presence.

Gerrit There is no doubt at least one person listening to this who feels like in their life they have made so many mistakes that every time they attempt to try to repent and change and that they fail again, that there's just no hope for them anymore. Remember that the prophet of the restoration failed and failed and failed and failed and failed with an angel tutoring him, with a resurrected being standing above him there in the air, with a greater witness than any of us could ever have, Joseph still failed. And it took years, years for Joseph to become the man that he became.

Gerrit Now look, even in his failures, Joseph was, I don't mean to badmouth him in the sense that, oh, Joseph was such a wicked sinner. Look, there's a reason why God called Joseph to do it, because I don't think anyone else could have. And even with that special calling, even with that special insight, even with angelic ministrants, Joseph was affected by the temptations of the world. And the Odyssey of Moroni, the Odyssey of Moroni's tutelage of Joseph is watching Joseph go from being a teenager who's concerned about his own sins, who's concerned about the poverty of his family, who's affected by what people say and the whims of the world to becoming someone who puts God first in his life every day, all day, all the time.

Gerrit So if you aren't happy where you're at in your progress in the gospel, you know what? Maybe you're in your 1824. Maybe you're in your 1825. Maybe twice the angels had to say, yeah, you're still not even close to getting worthy to taking these plates. But just because you don't have those gold plates now does not mean that you will not achieve them in the future. Just because you have failed tragically and sinfully in your life now, that's not the end of your story. The end of your story is that you always have the ability to repent, to return again, and as oft as my people will repent, I will forgive them, the Lord says. So don't give up. Don't give up. Learn the perseverance that the prophet had and keep pushing through it. There will come a time in all of eternity when you will be so grateful that you didn't give up the first or the second or the third or the fourth or the fifth time you failed, but you continue to progress to try to become a better person every day.

Gerrit I know that the Gospel of Jesus Christ has the ability to change people and to make them better. I've witnessed it, I've watched it, and I've felt it in my own life. So that's the whole reason why we even do this podcast. So I hope everyone got something out of that that they feel like they can take away. I still have more I want to say about Moroni, but now I'm just going to do it as like a sidebar.

Richard You're going to sprinkle it in.

Gerrit Well, I'm just going to like, you know, we'll be like, well, let's talk about the Kirtland Safety Society. And I'll be like, you know, Moroni, and I'll just basically what we do every week. Perfect. Thank you so much for joining us.

Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.

Chapters

Transcript

Quote board

Source shelf

Lucy Mack Smith, history, on Joseph's 1827 chastisement

Lucy Mack Smith, history, on Joseph bringing the plates home

Mormonism Unveiled (1834)

Brigham Young, on how persecution began once Joseph had the plates (Utah discourses, not named on air)

Helaman 13:26

D&C 3:3

Lucy Mack Smith, history, on the loss of the 116 pages

Jonathan Edwards, "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" (1741)

Joseph Smith's history (1838-1839), on Moroni returning the Urim and Thummim

D&C 3

Isaiah 52:7

Elders' Journal, 1838, Joseph Smith's answers to common questions

David W. Patten on Moroni's keys (Patton on air)

D&C 27:5-12

Joseph Smith, summer 1839 discourse recorded by Willard Richards

Revelation 14:6

Mosiah 26:30

Episode quiz

What did Richard's co-worker say after hearing all the dissertation steps left?

Fun with Numbers

Then and now

From 1823 to 1839

Money said on air

Putting numbers to words

What this episode talks about more than usual

Names said most

Signature words

More from this episode

Claim check

Take it to class

Banter bin

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

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