Makes it sound like we're a drug dealer. We had a contact and we sent some methamphetamine.
Standard of Truth · Season 3 · Episode 48 · 1:00:03
Walking on Water Part 1
The original 1834 newspaper story about a Mormon preacher drowning while faking a walk on water admitted it still needed to be "authenticated by the western papers," and the preacher never even had a name.
Press play above. The page follows along.
The question ·
Did this happen? Who was involved? What do other sources look like for this event?
Sister Rawlings (listener)
Richard reports that close to 50 missionaries have asked for premium access, and tells how his son in Peru was robbed by the same man who had already stolen his phone. Then Sister Rawlings, serving along the Susquehanna, shares a prank call: a man said a Mormon once faked walking on water with hidden boards. Gerrit traces the story to an 1834 Saturday Evening Post piece, reprinted as far as Georgia. The source is an unnamed gentleman telling an editor about an unnamed preacher in a shallow pond who supposedly drowned when skeptics sawed his hidden planks. Gerrit explains why hated groups get believed, tells a mission story about a hostile preacher in Wisconsin, and sets up how the Saints responded.
Who comes upJoseph SmithBrigham Young
Now playing · 0:38
In person
Richard forgets his usual greeting, thrown off by Gerrit's kind introduction.
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590 moments · tap a time to play from thereIntro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.
Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend in person, in the flesh, the nearly doctor, Richard LeDuc.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend in person, in the flesh, the nearly doctor, Richard LeDuc.
Richard Oh, hi. Hello, Gerrit.
Richard Oh, hi. Hello, Gerrit.
Gerrit Don't sound excited.
Gerrit Don't sound excited.
Richard No, I mean, I was caught off guard. I couldn't remember the thing that I always say every time.
Richard No, I mean, I was caught off guard. I couldn't remember the thing that I always say every time.
Gerrit I'm pretty sure it's hello, Gerrit.
Gerrit I'm pretty sure it's hello, Gerrit.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. I couldn't remember it. I was just so appreciative of that kind introduction. It's nice to be here for Moroni Part 32.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. I couldn't remember it. I was just so appreciative of that kind introduction. It's nice to be here for Moroni Part 32.
Gerrit Well, this is kind of a... This is a potpourri.
Gerrit Well, this is kind of a... This is a potpourri.
Richard Oh, is it?
Richard Oh, is it?
Gerrit Well, we're going to see what happens.
Gerrit Well, we're going to see what happens.
Richard Well, we're going to get into the Phebe Draper mailbag here. This might be the Gerrit Unhinged episode.
Richard Well, we're going to get into the Phebe Draper mailbag here. This might be the Gerrit Unhinged episode.
Gerrit No, no, no. We don't want to get Becky's hopes up because I'm trying to keep it at the level.
Gerrit No, no, no. We don't want to get Becky's hopes up because I'm trying to keep it at the level.
Richard My wife's favorite thing is irritated and upset Gerrit. There are a couple of occasional triggers, most relating to Joseph Smith, that get him going. And we received an email that-
Richard My wife's favorite thing is irritated and upset Gerrit. There are a couple of occasional triggers, most relating to Joseph Smith, that get him going. And we received an email that-
Gerrit From a missionary.
Gerrit From a missionary.
Richard From a missionary, who we provided with access to all of the-
Richard From a missionary, who we provided with access to all of the-
Gerrit Makes it sound like we're a drug dealer. We had a contact and we sent some methamphetamine.
Gerrit Makes it sound like we're a drug dealer. We had a contact and we sent some methamphetamine.
Richard So we gave her the access to the premium content, as we do with all missionaries. We have actually been inundated over the past two weeks and it has been a real treat. I think over the past couple of weeks, we've sent something close to 50 missionaries premium content. And again, all we ask is that you provide us with the missionary email and where they're serving.
Richard So we gave her the access to the premium content, as we do with all missionaries. We have actually been inundated over the past two weeks and it has been a real treat. I think over the past couple of weeks, we've sent something close to 50 missionaries premium content. And again, all we ask is that you provide us with the missionary email and where they're serving.
Gerrit They're baptized at least 100 people.
Gerrit They're baptized at least 100 people.
Richard That's all we're asking. That's all we've ever asked.
Richard That's all we're asking. That's all we've ever asked.
Gerrit Especially if you're in Japan.
Gerrit Especially if you're in Japan.
Richard That's right. That's why I've taken the content away from my son in Spain, because it ain't happening.
Richard That's right. That's why I've taken the content away from my son in Spain, because it ain't happening.
Gerrit He needs to work harder.
Gerrit He needs to work harder.
Richard My son in Peru's killing it. I don't know what's wrong with my son in Spain. Lack of work ethic.
Richard My son in Peru's killing it. I don't know what's wrong with my son in Spain. Lack of work ethic.
Gerrit Your son in Spain has always had a strong work ethic, and they sent him to Spain.
Gerrit Your son in Spain has always had a strong work ethic, and they sent him to Spain.
Richard Well, you know, it's been a good experience as we brag up the younger son who is killing it and the other one that is finding himself.
Richard Well, you know, it's been a good experience as we brag up the younger son who is killing it and the other one that is finding himself.
Gerrit I feel like at some point, Andrew's going to say to you, you know, you've never even let me have so much as a kid to celebrate with my friends. And then with this, your younger son, who went to Peru on a mission, when he comes, oh, it's rejoicing, isn't it?
Gerrit I feel like at some point, Andrew's going to say to you, you know, you've never even let me have so much as a kid to celebrate with my friends. And then with this, your younger son, who went to Peru on a mission, when he comes, oh, it's rejoicing, isn't it?
Richard Oh, yes. Well, the son in Spain has been robbed once, but just someone's swiped his bag. The son in Peru has been robbed at Knife and at Gun Point. And actually, the Gun Point is a mildly funny story. He was robbed by the same person, actually, twice. They're in, just outside of Lima.
Richard Oh, yes. Well, the son in Spain has been robbed once, but just someone's swiped his bag. The son in Peru has been robbed at Knife and at Gun Point. And actually, the Gun Point is a mildly funny story. He was robbed by the same person, actually, twice. They're in, just outside of Lima.
Gerrit I think he needs to take a different route to wherever he's going. Well, so this is the thing.
Gerrit I think he needs to take a different route to wherever he's going. Well, so this is the thing.
Richard Rigdon's like, we know the guy. Everyone knows the guy. The police know the guy. And everyone's fine with him just robbing us.
Richard Rigdon's like, we know the guy. Everyone knows the guy. The police know the guy. And everyone's fine with him just robbing us.
Gerrit Well, you are gringos.
Gerrit Well, you are gringos.
Richard Anyway, he got robbed at Knife. And I believe I've mentioned this previously, but when he was robbed by Knife, he just said he had a knife. And I was like, you didn't make him show you the knife? I mean, I could say I have a knife and not have a knife. And he said, well, dad, you know, my Spanish isn't quite good enough. I didn't realize we were being robbed until it was-
Richard Anyway, he got robbed at Knife. And I believe I've mentioned this previously, but when he was robbed by Knife, he just said he had a knife. And I was like, you didn't make him show you the knife? I mean, I could say I have a knife and not have a knife. And he said, well, dad, you know, my Spanish isn't quite good enough. I didn't realize we were being robbed until it was-
Gerrit Right, you thought he was asking, where are your slippers?
Gerrit Right, you thought he was asking, where are your slippers?
Richard Well, Duolingo doesn't, he said Duolingo doesn't have a you're being robbed chapter, which is pretty funny.
Richard Well, Duolingo doesn't, he said Duolingo doesn't have a you're being robbed chapter, which is pretty funny.
Gerrit You know what, Duolingo, you do need a you're being robbed chapter. That's the most important chapter if you're traveling.
Gerrit You know what, Duolingo, you do need a you're being robbed chapter. That's the most important chapter if you're traveling.
Richard Well, sure. Anyway, so, but then when he was robbed at gunpoint, again, I don't know why I think this is as funny as I do. My wife does not think it's nearly as funny, but he was being robbed. And this time he showed him the gun and he said, Did Rigdon say, Nope, show it to me.
Richard Well, sure. Anyway, so, but then when he was robbed at gunpoint, again, I don't know why I think this is as funny as I do. My wife does not think it's nearly as funny, but he was being robbed. And this time he showed him the gun and he said, Did Rigdon say, Nope, show it to me.
Gerrit My dad said to not give any criminals anybody unless I could see the weapon. So like, where is it?
Gerrit My dad said to not give any criminals anybody unless I could see the weapon. So like, where is it?
Richard So he didn't prove it worked.
Richard So he didn't prove it worked.
Gerrit Oh, okay, well.
Gerrit Oh, okay, well.
Richard So anyway.
Richard So anyway.
Gerrit Shoot something. If that gun doesn't go off, I won't, it's kind of a doubting Thomas situation, but with a gun.
Gerrit Shoot something. If that gun doesn't go off, I won't, it's kind of a doubting Thomas situation, but with a gun.
Richard Until you shoot this apple off my head, I won't believe. Anyway, so he shows him the gun. And again, I don't know why. You can hear me smiling as I'm telling this story about my son being robbed at gunpoint. I think there's something seriously wrong with me, but you know, he'll be fine. It'll build his character. So when he shows him the gun, he says, give me your phone and your money. And my son says, we don't have a phone. You stole it from us.
Richard Until you shoot this apple off my head, I won't believe. Anyway, so he shows him the gun. And again, I don't know why. You can hear me smiling as I'm telling this story about my son being robbed at gunpoint. I think there's something seriously wrong with me, but you know, he'll be fine. It'll build his character. So when he shows him the gun, he says, give me your phone and your money. And my son says, we don't have a phone. You stole it from us.
Gerrit Two weeks ago. So how long does it take to get a new phone? What's he been doing for two weeks?
Gerrit Two weeks ago. So how long does it take to get a new phone? What's he been doing for two weeks?
Richard They've been writing, he's been complaining. He's had to write everything on paper and he's had to get a notepad and write all the things down.
Richard They've been writing, he's been complaining. He's had to write everything on paper and he's had to get a notepad and write all the things down.
Gerrit Oh, what a horrible, horrible life.
Gerrit Oh, what a horrible, horrible life.
Richard I know. Well, the being robbed, I think, is a legitimate concern.
Richard I know. Well, the being robbed, I think, is a legitimate concern.
Gerrit I gotta tell you, kids today, am I right? They don't know how, first, okay.
Gerrit I gotta tell you, kids today, am I right? They don't know how, first, okay.
Richard They don't know how to be robbed.
Richard They don't know how to be robbed.
Gerrit I feel bad that he got robbed kind of. But second of all, kids don't know how to write or read cursive. No. So we have a good friend of ours who was running for city council in Spanish Fork and friend of the show.
Gerrit I feel bad that he got robbed kind of. But second of all, kids don't know how to write or read cursive. No. So we have a good friend of ours who was running for city council in Spanish Fork and friend of the show.
Richard I think you mentioned this in the premium. Yeah.
Richard I think you mentioned this in the premium. Yeah.
Gerrit And he had my, well, my son registered to vote for the first time, just turned 18, you know. And so he could vote for his friend in the ward. And he couldn't sign his name. I mean, at all. Like if I were to put a picture of his signature up on our website, we would become a comedy site immediately. The only problem is, then you would all be able to copy it because it's so ridiculously horrible. And then, you know, someone will still own it.
Gerrit And he had my, well, my son registered to vote for the first time, just turned 18, you know. And so he could vote for his friend in the ward. And he couldn't sign his name. I mean, at all. Like if I were to put a picture of his signature up on our website, we would become a comedy site immediately. The only problem is, then you would all be able to copy it because it's so ridiculously horrible. And then, you know, someone will still own it.
Richard I think in the Condemned or Repeat It, Declaration of Independence part two, you I think described it like a caveman would grab a pen and just hold it like a club and just like block letters.
Richard I think in the Condemned or Repeat It, Declaration of Independence part two, you I think described it like a caveman would grab a pen and just hold it like a club and just like block letters.
Gerrit That's essentially what they're doing right now.
Gerrit That's essentially what they're doing right now.
Richard Well, anyway, so when he's getting robbed and he tells him, I don't have a phone, you stole it from us two weeks ago, the robber laughed and like kind of like taps him on the shoulder. Oh yeah, that's right. All right, just your money then. So they gave him his money.
Richard Well, anyway, so when he's getting robbed and he tells him, I don't have a phone, you stole it from us two weeks ago, the robber laughed and like kind of like taps him on the shoulder. Oh yeah, that's right. All right, just your money then. So they gave him his money.
Gerrit Have they tried calling his phone?
Gerrit Have they tried calling his phone?
Richard No. No, no.
Richard No. No, no.
Gerrit Because maybe they could call him and say, hey, we have some more money to give you. What road are you on right now?
Gerrit Because maybe they could call him and say, hey, we have some more money to give you. What road are you on right now?
Richard And again, part of the reason that that's funny is because, you know, he's fine and he's still with us and he's in a different area now where there's far less robbings happening. So good for Rigdon. Well, on to the Phebe Draper mailbag.
Richard And again, part of the reason that that's funny is because, you know, he's fine and he's still with us and he's in a different area now where there's far less robbings happening. So good for Rigdon. Well, on to the Phebe Draper mailbag.
Gerrit We have a lot of mail. We are avalanche in mail. So we apologize for those people that we won't respond to or read on the air, but we will read all of them. We read all of them, but we are avalanche.
Gerrit We have a lot of mail. We are avalanche in mail. So we apologize for those people that we won't respond to or read on the air, but we will read all of them. We read all of them, but we are avalanche.
Richard Yes.
Richard Yes.
Gerrit Keep sending mail.
Gerrit Keep sending mail.
Richard So there are a couple of ways to get your email read. This is the most effective. I don't know if I believe it or not, but this certainly is the most effective.
Richard So there are a couple of ways to get your email read. This is the most effective. I don't know if I believe it or not, but this certainly is the most effective.
Gerrit We're gonna find out. We're gonna hold her to it.
Gerrit We're gonna find out. We're gonna hold her to it.
Richard So the subject is, I will subscribe if you read my email. And Tylee, that goes straight to my heart. Tug's on the old heart straight. Gerrit, my husband and I.
Richard So the subject is, I will subscribe if you read my email. And Tylee, that goes straight to my heart. Tug's on the old heart straight. Gerrit, my husband and I.
Gerrit Are we gonna need Tylee to like send us a screenshot of her having subscribed? Tylee, if we don't get a screenshot of you having subscribed to the premium content, we revoke reading the email.
Gerrit Are we gonna need Tylee to like send us a screenshot of her having subscribed? Tylee, if we don't get a screenshot of you having subscribed to the premium content, we revoke reading the email.
Richard I know that Gerrit has hard feelings toward the state of Missouri, but he, similar to Thomas, yeah, show me.
Richard I know that Gerrit has hard feelings toward the state of Missouri, but he, similar to Thomas, yeah, show me.
Gerrit He gots to show me.
Gerrit He gots to show me.
Richard My husband and I met you at the Joseph Smith Papers Conference, and we were fangirling. We were disappointed we didn't get to meet Richard. Well, you know what they say, Tylee, never meet your heroes. I want to know from either of you if you've learned anything new recently about Joseph Smith and what it was. Hopefully, it makes it on the podcast. Thank you for the insightful, funny and faith promoting commentary. We love listening to you guys.
Richard My husband and I met you at the Joseph Smith Papers Conference, and we were fangirling. We were disappointed we didn't get to meet Richard. Well, you know what they say, Tylee, never meet your heroes. I want to know from either of you if you've learned anything new recently about Joseph Smith and what it was. Hopefully, it makes it on the podcast. Thank you for the insightful, funny and faith promoting commentary. We love listening to you guys.
Gerrit Very kind email. Thank you very much for the email. And you don't have to subscribe if you don't want to, but you did say that you would.
Gerrit Very kind email. Thank you very much for the email. And you don't have to subscribe if you don't want to, but you did say that you would.
Richard Yeah, no, you don't have to. I mean, we know where liars are thrust to.
Richard Yeah, no, you don't have to. I mean, we know where liars are thrust to.
Gerrit Yeah, I mean, it's not like they're just carefully placed down in hell.
Gerrit Yeah, I mean, it's not like they're just carefully placed down in hell.
Richard They're thrust.
Richard They're thrust.
Gerrit Yeah, it's like a shot put event with Archangel Michael. Just, yeah.
Gerrit Yeah, it's like a shot put event with Archangel Michael. Just, yeah.
Richard So Gerrit, what new things have you learned of Joseph Lannes?
Richard So Gerrit, what new things have you learned of Joseph Lannes?
Gerrit Well, a lot of things, but I mean, I think-
Gerrit Well, a lot of things, but I mean, I think-
Richard You're still learning new things all the time?
Richard You're still learning new things all the time?
Gerrit I'm learning new things all the time. But I think maybe we'll answer that by doing another email here.
Gerrit I'm learning new things all the time. But I think maybe we'll answer that by doing another email here.
Richard This is from Sister Rawlings. Dear Dr. Dirkmaat and soon to be, if not already, Dr. LeDuc. Well, never, Sister Rawlings, but I appreciate your support. I'm currently serving a mission in Pennsylvania, and several of my areas are bordered, or have bordered the Susquehanna River. In the area I'm serving now, I get to drive over it every day. I've been serving for a little over a year, and I'm loving it. This podcast was influential in my preparation to be a missionary. And has continued to help me in my service.
Richard This is from Sister Rawlings. Dear Dr. Dirkmaat and soon to be, if not already, Dr. LeDuc. Well, never, Sister Rawlings, but I appreciate your support. I'm currently serving a mission in Pennsylvania, and several of my areas are bordered, or have bordered the Susquehanna River. In the area I'm serving now, I get to drive over it every day. I've been serving for a little over a year, and I'm loving it. This podcast was influential in my preparation to be a missionary. And has continued to help me in my service.
Gerrit So she's allowed to listen to it, or at least.
Gerrit So she's allowed to listen to it, or at least.
Richard Did.
Gerrit She is listening to it, I guess, or.
Richard Did.
Gerrit She is listening to it, I guess, or.
Richard I believe I said, I'm gonna get our crack research staff to make sure that we've sent her the access to the premium. I don't know that she asked for it.
Richard I believe I said, I'm gonna get our crack research staff to make sure that we've sent her the access to the premium. I don't know that she asked for it.
Gerrit When Richard says crack research staff, it means he's going to be typing on his laptop next to me while I answer the question.
Gerrit When Richard says crack research staff, it means he's going to be typing on his laptop next to me while I answer the question.
Richard It strengthened my testimony of the living profit and helped me gain a greater appreciation for the profits that came before him. On P-Day, I overheard my companion talking about me to her family and she told them that I know my church history. That is pretty great. I owe a lot of that knowledge to things I've learned from listening to your podcast. I'm able to testify more confidently of things that are true and it's helped me avoid the trap of being Gettysburg Park Ranger. Wow.
Richard It strengthened my testimony of the living profit and helped me gain a greater appreciation for the profits that came before him. On P-Day, I overheard my companion talking about me to her family and she told them that I know my church history. That is pretty great. I owe a lot of that knowledge to things I've learned from listening to your podcast. I'm able to testify more confidently of things that are true and it's helped me avoid the trap of being Gettysburg Park Ranger. Wow.
Gerrit That is literally the greatest use of a term that we've had.
Gerrit That is literally the greatest use of a term that we've had.
Richard So I will say-
Richard So I will say-
Gerrit Gettysburg Park Rangers.
Gerrit Gettysburg Park Rangers.
Richard So she does get to her question here in just a sec, but I will say, in discussion with my twice-robbed son, Rigdon, he was talking at Thanksgiving about, you know, we got to talk to him for just a brief couple of minutes, and he said how he started listening to the podcast.
Richard So she does get to her question here in just a sec, but I will say, in discussion with my twice-robbed son, Rigdon, he was talking at Thanksgiving about, you know, we got to talk to him for just a brief couple of minutes, and he said how he started listening to the podcast.
Gerrit Whoa.
Gerrit Whoa.
Richard I know. And I tried to get him to listen to the podcast prior, and it's just like, hey, missionary extravaganza episode. Here's about 27 episodes. It really helps to frame some of the core beliefs of what it is that we believe, what other people believe, and to give a greater context. And he's like, okay, yeah, I'll give it a shot. On the drive down to Lake Powell with some friends, he listened to it for, he said, 15 minutes before he was so bored, he had to shut it off.
Richard I know. And I tried to get him to listen to the podcast prior, and it's just like, hey, missionary extravaganza episode. Here's about 27 episodes. It really helps to frame some of the core beliefs of what it is that we believe, what other people believe, and to give a greater context. And he's like, okay, yeah, I'll give it a shot. On the drive down to Lake Powell with some friends, he listened to it for, he said, 15 minutes before he was so bored, he had to shut it off.
Gerrit Yeah. We don't compete well with Lake Powell or friends. Or anything.
Gerrit Yeah. We don't compete well with Lake Powell or friends. Or anything.
Richard Well, so this is to his point.
Richard Well, so this is to his point.
Gerrit If you're in a doctor's office and you've been waiting for two or three hours, by the fourth hour, you can get 15 minutes.
Gerrit If you're in a doctor's office and you've been waiting for two or three hours, by the fourth hour, you can get 15 minutes.
Richard By doctor's office, he means chemically induced coma.
Richard By doctor's office, he means chemically induced coma.
Gerrit Yeah. If it's playing on a loop as the, your family's trying to wake you up and demonstrate brain function.
Gerrit Yeah. If it's playing on a loop as the, your family's trying to wake you up and demonstrate brain function.
Richard Activity, yeah. There's no waves. You know what? We kill it with no brain wave folks.
Richard Activity, yeah. There's no waves. You know what? We kill it with no brain wave folks.
Gerrit It's one of our key demos, is people who are not conscious.
Gerrit It's one of our key demos, is people who are not conscious.
Richard Mortuaries, coma wards, we kill it, unintended. So anyway, so he says, I tried and just, just so, so boring. And he said, but you know what? I started listening to it again. And he's got a companion that, new companion, they haven't quite developed the close friendship that sometimes occurs with companionships.
Richard Mortuaries, coma wards, we kill it, unintended. So anyway, so he says, I tried and just, just so, so boring. And he said, but you know what? I started listening to it again. And he's got a companion that, new companion, they haven't quite developed the close friendship that sometimes occurs with companionships.
Gerrit With being robbed.
Gerrit With being robbed.
Richard Yeah. And so he, you know, he's got a lot more downtime, you know, where he, you know, has nothing to do maybe in the morning or evening as he's going to bed. And he said, you know, when, when the alternative is nothing, it's not bad.
Richard Yeah. And so he, you know, he's got a lot more downtime, you know, where he, you know, has nothing to do maybe in the morning or evening as he's going to bed. And he said, you know, when, when the alternative is nothing, it's not bad.
Gerrit I think that we should probably have that put on a T-shirt.
Gerrit I think that we should probably have that put on a T-shirt.
Richard When the, Standard of Truth podcast, when the alternative is nothing, it's not bad. He didn't say it was good. He said, not bad.
Richard When the, Standard of Truth podcast, when the alternative is nothing, it's not bad. He didn't say it was good. He said, not bad.
Gerrit He's always been very, very effusive with his praise. He's always, he's always been the child you had that was always telling you what a great job you were doing.
Gerrit He's always been very, very effusive with his praise. He's always, he's always been the child you had that was always telling you what a great job you were doing.
Richard Oh yeah, yeah, constantly. I laughed, I laughed for a good five minutes when he said that. Now to my question from Sister Rawlings here. A few weeks ago, my companion and I got off a call from a random number. We answered, and the man asked us if we could tell him how to get to heaven. We were ready for the biggest miracle ever. After explaining briefly faith, repentance, baptism in the Holy Ghost, and enduring to the end, he said, this is Mormon, right? I don't agree with your church. He then proceeds to tell us a story about how someone in our church faked walking on water by placing boards under the surface. And as a result, everyone in our church is dishonest and then hung up. We had a lot of questions after he hung up, but was wondering if you know the answer to any of them. I asked my family and they found a few things indicating it was Joseph Smith, but the sources were sketchy at best. Did this happen? Who was involved? What do other sources look like for this event?
Richard Oh yeah, yeah, constantly. I laughed, I laughed for a good five minutes when he said that. Now to my question from Sister Rawlings here. A few weeks ago, my companion and I got off a call from a random number. We answered, and the man asked us if we could tell him how to get to heaven. We were ready for the biggest miracle ever. After explaining briefly faith, repentance, baptism in the Holy Ghost, and enduring to the end, he said, this is Mormon, right? I don't agree with your church. He then proceeds to tell us a story about how someone in our church faked walking on water by placing boards under the surface. And as a result, everyone in our church is dishonest and then hung up. We had a lot of questions after he hung up, but was wondering if you know the answer to any of them. I asked my family and they found a few things indicating it was Joseph Smith, but the sources were sketchy at best. Did this happen? Who was involved? What do other sources look like for this event?
Richard I've been a member of the church all 20 years of my life and have never heard anything like this story. Where would this random guy have heard it? Thanks for your podcast and your humor. I'm grateful to be able to listen and laugh at the same time sincerely. So, oh, she says, by the way, PS, I just used glossolalia in a sentence. Bonus points?
Richard I've been a member of the church all 20 years of my life and have never heard anything like this story. Where would this random guy have heard it? Thanks for your podcast and your humor. I'm grateful to be able to listen and laugh at the same time sincerely. So, oh, she says, by the way, PS, I just used glossolalia in a sentence. Bonus points?
Gerrit Glossolalia. She used it as a sentence with who? With an investigator? Look, if you come to church on Sunday, I can promise glossolalia.
Gerrit Glossolalia. She used it as a sentence with who? With an investigator? Look, if you come to church on Sunday, I can promise glossolalia.
Richard Or that there won't be. Well, maybe.
Richard Or that there won't be. Well, maybe.
Gerrit Well, we're trying to get them to the church. We did do a glossolalia episode.
Gerrit Well, we're trying to get them to the church. We did do a glossolalia episode.
Richard We did.
Gerrit So I think that's what she's referencing. She also indicated that she's the daughter of one of our other listeners. Yeah, that's right. So I'm sure Brian is also aware that we're reading that email. So yeah, glossolalia. Wow, that's way to throw that out.
Richard We did.
Gerrit So I think that's what she's referencing. She also indicated that she's the daughter of one of our other listeners. Yeah, that's right. So I'm sure Brian is also aware that we're reading that email. So yeah, glossolalia. Wow, that's way to throw that out.
Richard How would that be pronounced in Baltimore, Gerrit?
Richard How would that be pronounced in Baltimore, Gerrit?
Gerrit Well, so some people, I certainly don't want to indict everyone in Baltimore. They have a trouble sometimes with a good pronunciation of an L. So sometimes people from Baltimore, they kind of swallow the L. So you actually say the L. You say L, not L. But you could have a chance to, if you come on our tour.
Gerrit Well, so some people, I certainly don't want to indict everyone in Baltimore. They have a trouble sometimes with a good pronunciation of an L. So sometimes people from Baltimore, they kind of swallow the L. So you actually say the L. You say L, not L. But you could have a chance to, if you come on our tour.
Richard We're starting in Baltimore.
Richard We're starting in Baltimore.
Gerrit We start in Baltimore. We go to Fort McHenry and there, that's where our Constitution was written. I apologize to literally everyone from Baltimore. No members of the church are living in Baltimore. If you do ever meet someone who's really from Baltimore, you're going to have to buy the L the same way you'd buy a vowel from Vanu White. I mean, there's no L. Ls are all in the back of their throat and gone. Richard tried to get an oil change there once.
Gerrit We start in Baltimore. We go to Fort McHenry and there, that's where our Constitution was written. I apologize to literally everyone from Baltimore. No members of the church are living in Baltimore. If you do ever meet someone who's really from Baltimore, you're going to have to buy the L the same way you'd buy a vowel from Vanu White. I mean, there's no L. Ls are all in the back of their throat and gone. Richard tried to get an oil change there once.
Richard Well, so I used to do a lot of work in the DC area, and it was in the automotive aftermarket. We'd go and work with different distributors, and we'd be just in the heart of Baltimore. And I am staring at their lips trying to understand what is happening. And I am like, I am not.
Richard Well, so I used to do a lot of work in the DC area, and it was in the automotive aftermarket. We'd go and work with different distributors, and we'd be just in the heart of Baltimore. And I am staring at their lips trying to understand what is happening. And I am like, I am not.
Gerrit I assume we have at least some listeners from Virginia that will like... Yeah, they'll be like, they're more than willing to call up and be like, yeah, I can't understand them either, but in a very hoity-toity voice.
Gerrit I assume we have at least some listeners from Virginia that will like... Yeah, they'll be like, they're more than willing to call up and be like, yeah, I can't understand them either, but in a very hoity-toity voice.
Richard Lovely, wonderful people all.
Richard Lovely, wonderful people all.
Gerrit Okay, so I'm going to try to not get mad as I answer the question.
Gerrit Okay, so I'm going to try to not get mad as I answer the question.
Richard So you're saying Joseph Smith didn't think Walking on Water.
Richard So you're saying Joseph Smith didn't think Walking on Water.
Gerrit So I love the fact that you had your family look it up and they were like, yeah, I think the sources are sketchy at best. This is an understatement to say sketchy at best. So where does this originate? This originates from, well, first of all, this claim that religious persons were trying to feign walking on water in order to get converts is actually a fairly common trope that's used by people attacking those religious traditions. Because what are you trying to say? You're trying to say that anyone who's following them is just a dupe or a liar, right? I mean, first of all, I mean, it's hard for me to not be mad that some clown looked up who the local Latter-day Saint missionaries were in Pennsylvania and then called them up pretending to be interested so that he could then say, oh yeah, what about this?
Gerrit So I love the fact that you had your family look it up and they were like, yeah, I think the sources are sketchy at best. This is an understatement to say sketchy at best. So where does this originate? This originates from, well, first of all, this claim that religious persons were trying to feign walking on water in order to get converts is actually a fairly common trope that's used by people attacking those religious traditions. Because what are you trying to say? You're trying to say that anyone who's following them is just a dupe or a liar, right? I mean, first of all, I mean, it's hard for me to not be mad that some clown looked up who the local Latter-day Saint missionaries were in Pennsylvania and then called them up pretending to be interested so that he could then say, oh yeah, what about this?
Gerrit And then hang up the receiver before there was a chance to respond.
Gerrit And then hang up the receiver before there was a chance to respond.
Richard I'm assuming he ended the call with Baba Booey.
Richard I'm assuming he ended the call with Baba Booey.
Gerrit Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure it was something like that. I mean, I mean, if you served a mission, you would sometimes get this kind of like drive-by yelling of Pete things from cars. I recall in Wisconsin, one time we didn't just have people yell at us that we were going to hell. We were walking and someone drove by with paintball guns and proceeded to shoot, primarily my companion. He missed most of me. I dove out of the way as I saw the late model Cadillac coming around the corner with a barrel laying. I said, watch out, and he got pelted with a bunch of pink paintballs.
Gerrit Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure it was something like that. I mean, I mean, if you served a mission, you would sometimes get this kind of like drive-by yelling of Pete things from cars. I recall in Wisconsin, one time we didn't just have people yell at us that we were going to hell. We were walking and someone drove by with paintball guns and proceeded to shoot, primarily my companion. He missed most of me. I dove out of the way as I saw the late model Cadillac coming around the corner with a barrel laying. I said, watch out, and he got pelted with a bunch of pink paintballs.
Richard That's not bad. I got hit with a giant big gulp.
Richard That's not bad. I got hit with a giant big gulp.
Gerrit Oh, was it full?
Richard It was pretty full.
Gerrit Oh, was it full?
Richard It was pretty full.
Gerrit Was it a sticky soda or was it a diet? Because that's how you know whether it's with its ingest or whether they beat it.
Gerrit Was it a sticky soda or was it a diet? Because that's how you know whether it's with its ingest or whether they beat it.
Richard Can I tell you what? It wasn't like a red soda. It was like a Sprite.
Richard Can I tell you what? It wasn't like a red soda. It was like a Sprite.
Gerrit Oh, someone is hitting you with a Sprite. They're basically saying, you know what I love?
Gerrit Oh, someone is hitting you with a Sprite. They're basically saying, you know what I love?
Richard Refreshing.
Richard Refreshing.
Gerrit It was a hot day. It kind of reminds me of when Brigham Young is trying to convince the Latter-day Saints. I mean, look, the Saints have been driven and driven and driven and driven and driven. So when they get driven from Nauvoo, they set up several way stations on the way through Iowa to help the people that are trying to collect and gather. And one of them is Mount Pisgah and the other is Garden Grove. Well, the people who are assigned to kind of manage and run Garden Grove, well, they plant crops. They start, I mean, they're industrious. So they start building cabins and they start building a little town there. And they're planting crops. And eventually Brigham Young kind of has to, you know, send the letter to those people saying, hey, I know you've made Garden Grove kind of a nice place. But it's time to get to the valley. You know what I mean? And it's actually kind of hard for people to leave because they're out in the middle of nowhere.
Gerrit It was a hot day. It kind of reminds me of when Brigham Young is trying to convince the Latter-day Saints. I mean, look, the Saints have been driven and driven and driven and driven and driven. So when they get driven from Nauvoo, they set up several way stations on the way through Iowa to help the people that are trying to collect and gather. And one of them is Mount Pisgah and the other is Garden Grove. Well, the people who are assigned to kind of manage and run Garden Grove, well, they plant crops. They start, I mean, they're industrious. So they start building cabins and they start building a little town there. And they're planting crops. And eventually Brigham Young kind of has to, you know, send the letter to those people saying, hey, I know you've made Garden Grove kind of a nice place. But it's time to get to the valley. You know what I mean? And it's actually kind of hard for people to leave because they're out in the middle of nowhere.
Gerrit I said Iowa. I already said the words Iowa and it's 1846, 47. I mean, you know, yeah, essentially I could throw a dart anywhere in Iowa. And if I'm probably it's the same level of ruralness anyway. And Brigham knows is kind of a hard thing in this letter that he's saying, you know, I know you've moved, I know you're safe there and you feel fine, but you need to gather with the rest of the saints. And then in a very tongue in cheek way says, you know, you can try to sell your properties. You could always cross the border into Missouri and offer it to them. They would probably buy all your properties just to be rid of the Mormons that are nearby. I thought it was pretty funny.
Gerrit I said Iowa. I already said the words Iowa and it's 1846, 47. I mean, you know, yeah, essentially I could throw a dart anywhere in Iowa. And if I'm probably it's the same level of ruralness anyway. And Brigham knows is kind of a hard thing in this letter that he's saying, you know, I know you've moved, I know you're safe there and you feel fine, but you need to gather with the rest of the saints. And then in a very tongue in cheek way says, you know, you can try to sell your properties. You could always cross the border into Missouri and offer it to them. They would probably buy all your properties just to be rid of the Mormons that are nearby. I thought it was pretty funny.
Richard Pretty funny.
Gerrit I'm trying to lighten the mood a little bit. And so yeah, you know what, someone who's throwing a sprite at you. I feel like that's the same thing as love.
Richard Pretty funny.
Gerrit I'm trying to lighten the mood a little bit. And so yeah, you know what, someone who's throwing a sprite at you. I feel like that's the same thing as love.
Richard Oh, no, it was literally, it was like 107. It was a hot day.
Richard Oh, no, it was literally, it was like 107. It was a hot day.
Gerrit Well, so we got hit by paintballs. My companion was so mad. I wasn't happy. He was raging, like raging, like I'm like, well, let's go home and get changed out there. And he was so angry, he couldn't stand it, he was so mad. And I think he'd had kind of a rough mission up to that point, because I did say we were in Wisconsin.
Gerrit Well, so we got hit by paintballs. My companion was so mad. I wasn't happy. He was raging, like raging, like I'm like, well, let's go home and get changed out there. And he was so angry, he couldn't stand it, he was so mad. And I think he'd had kind of a rough mission up to that point, because I did say we were in Wisconsin.
Richard That's the giveaway.
Richard That's the giveaway.
Gerrit So I think maybe he was just like, you know what, I'm done. And it was a little bit rough. But this is more like a drive-by anti-Mormoning, like our extreme anti-Mormon that we've talked about who's doing a tricky flip as he does a 180, 360, maybe a new one, a 720, Joseph Smith faked Walking on Water. So the first thing, as I said, that you want to get out is that this is actually a relatively common refrain. Actually, you know what? Well, you don't want to talk about first. At some point, I'm going to talk about it. See, I'm already being derailed. Yep. I'm being derailed. We're going to need to call Becky. Becky, you need to come help me out here. This is your argument that you took the time. You took the time to look up what the names of the sister missionaries, where they were. Look it up. Find it online. Okay. Sister missionaries.
Gerrit So I think maybe he was just like, you know what, I'm done. And it was a little bit rough. But this is more like a drive-by anti-Mormoning, like our extreme anti-Mormon that we've talked about who's doing a tricky flip as he does a 180, 360, maybe a new one, a 720, Joseph Smith faked Walking on Water. So the first thing, as I said, that you want to get out is that this is actually a relatively common refrain. Actually, you know what? Well, you don't want to talk about first. At some point, I'm going to talk about it. See, I'm already being derailed. Yep. I'm being derailed. We're going to need to call Becky. Becky, you need to come help me out here. This is your argument that you took the time. You took the time to look up what the names of the sister missionaries, where they were. Look it up. Find it online. Okay. Sister missionaries.
Gerrit You took the time to call them. You took the time to go through the song and the dance of pretending like you were interested so that you could drop a gigantic truth bomb on them, and that's what you came up with? This is the dumbest thing I think I've heard in a long time.
Gerrit You took the time to call them. You took the time to go through the song and the dance of pretending like you were interested so that you could drop a gigantic truth bomb on them, and that's what you came up with? This is the dumbest thing I think I've heard in a long time.
Richard So, you're mostly offended that there's 30 better anti-arguments?
Richard So, you're mostly offended that there's 30 better anti-arguments?
Gerrit There's lots of... I don't think any of them are good, but I mean...
Gerrit There's lots of... I don't think any of them are good, but I mean...
Richard Better.
Richard Better.
Gerrit At least come at me with some John C. Bennett. I mean...
Gerrit At least come at me with some John C. Bennett. I mean...
Richard Something.
Richard Something.
Gerrit Dig a little, get an Eber Howe.
Gerrit Dig a little, get an Eber Howe.
Richard Kinderhook plates. They're better.
Richard Kinderhook plates. They're better.
Gerrit Why don't you at least try? Why don't you at least say some... I mean, this argument is so bad that it's like the, how in the world would Joseph have been able to run if he was carrying 50 pounds of plates? And literally every Navy seal on earth is like, I'm pretty sure you can do it. I've heard tell that people have the ability to run with 50 pounds. These are dumb arguments. They're dumb arguments because first of all, they deny the power of God, but second of all, they are sourced horrendously, and they are all of the, it just stands to reason variety. Even in her email, she said, well, if the members of the church were lying about Joseph Smith walking on water, then that means all members of the church are liars. You couldn't find one person trained in logic or rhetoric that would say that that makes that a true statement. That's, that's one of the dumbest, well, therefore thus, I've ever heard in my life.
Gerrit Why don't you at least try? Why don't you at least say some... I mean, this argument is so bad that it's like the, how in the world would Joseph have been able to run if he was carrying 50 pounds of plates? And literally every Navy seal on earth is like, I'm pretty sure you can do it. I've heard tell that people have the ability to run with 50 pounds. These are dumb arguments. They're dumb arguments because first of all, they deny the power of God, but second of all, they are sourced horrendously, and they are all of the, it just stands to reason variety. Even in her email, she said, well, if the members of the church were lying about Joseph Smith walking on water, then that means all members of the church are liars. You couldn't find one person trained in logic or rhetoric that would say that that makes that a true statement. That's, that's one of the dumbest, well, therefore thus, I've ever heard in my life.
Richard So you think this, this person probably was a, was a professor at Penn then you think?
Richard So you think this, this person probably was a, was a professor at Penn then you think?
Gerrit You know what? I don't know where he was a professor at. My guess he was a professor at YouTube University, where he listened to someone mock this, and then, you know, without doing any research on it on his own, went and threw it up there. But I don't know where to start with where I should say this comes from. Should I start with where he probably heard it, or should I start with where it originally comes from?
Gerrit You know what? I don't know where he was a professor at. My guess he was a professor at YouTube University, where he listened to someone mock this, and then, you know, without doing any research on it on his own, went and threw it up there. But I don't know where to start with where I should say this comes from. Should I start with where he probably heard it, or should I start with where it originally comes from?
Richard Let's start with the original.
Richard Let's start with the original.
Gerrit Okay, let's go back to the original sources.
Gerrit Okay, let's go back to the original sources.
Richard That's right.
Gerrit Let's get into our time machine. Diddle-dee-doo, diddle-dee-doo. And like I said, this, this accusation is made to multiple different religious people over the course of time. It's a, it's a fairly standard trope that they are claiming that they performed a miracle, but of course they didn't perform one. In fact, that trope of claiming to perform a miracle, but of course they didn't perform one goes all the way back to Jesus, the New Testament. It goes all the way back to the New Testament where, you know, you give God the praise for we know this man, Jesus is a sinner, right? I mean that you couldn't possibly have been blind, you know, whether he'd be a sinner or no, I know not this I know, whereas I was blind, now I see that the arguments from the beginning where it had to be some other type of thing. And when Jesus's body is no longer in the tomb, the New Testament tells us immediately you have people saying, well, his followers came and they stole the body.
Richard That's right.
Gerrit Let's get into our time machine. Diddle-dee-doo, diddle-dee-doo. And like I said, this, this accusation is made to multiple different religious people over the course of time. It's a, it's a fairly standard trope that they are claiming that they performed a miracle, but of course they didn't perform one. In fact, that trope of claiming to perform a miracle, but of course they didn't perform one goes all the way back to Jesus, the New Testament. It goes all the way back to the New Testament where, you know, you give God the praise for we know this man, Jesus is a sinner, right? I mean that you couldn't possibly have been blind, you know, whether he'd be a sinner or no, I know not this I know, whereas I was blind, now I see that the arguments from the beginning where it had to be some other type of thing. And when Jesus's body is no longer in the tomb, the New Testament tells us immediately you have people saying, well, his followers came and they stole the body.
Gerrit That's what happened. All an attempt to discredit the other aspects of that religion. So the Saturday Evening Post in, we don't know exactly the date on it. I'd have to find the actual newspaper and it's not digitized, but either in the last couple days of March or in the first couple days of April, published this article from New York in 1834. So early April, probably 1834. It was then grabbed and reprinted everywhere. It probably was reprinted as far south as Baltimore. Actually, I know it was printed all the way down in Milledgeville, Georgia, which I'm not even sure where Milledgeville, Georgia is. Do we have any listeners in Milledgeville?
Gerrit That's what happened. All an attempt to discredit the other aspects of that religion. So the Saturday Evening Post in, we don't know exactly the date on it. I'd have to find the actual newspaper and it's not digitized, but either in the last couple days of March or in the first couple days of April, published this article from New York in 1834. So early April, probably 1834. It was then grabbed and reprinted everywhere. It probably was reprinted as far south as Baltimore. Actually, I know it was printed all the way down in Milledgeville, Georgia, which I'm not even sure where Milledgeville, Georgia is. Do we have any listeners in Milledgeville?
Richard If we do, go dogs.
Richard If we do, go dogs.
Gerrit Do you think that they're Georgia fans? What if they're Georgia Tech fans?
Gerrit Do you think that they're Georgia fans? What if they're Georgia Tech fans?
Richard They're not.
Richard They're not.
Gerrit So, no one in Georgia, what if they're Georgia Southern fans? Georgia State fans? So, do you think everyone just pretends to be a Georgia Bulldogs fan when they're about to go to the national championship?
Gerrit So, no one in Georgia, what if they're Georgia Southern fans? Georgia State fans? So, do you think everyone just pretends to be a Georgia Bulldogs fan when they're about to go to the national championship?
Richard I mean, they're potentially about to win their third national championship in a row. They're going to, I mean, allegedly, for entertainment purposes, four and a half point favorites over Alabama this weekend.
Richard I mean, they're potentially about to win their third national championship in a row. They're going to, I mean, allegedly, for entertainment purposes, four and a half point favorites over Alabama this weekend.
Gerrit That seems like a small favorite though.
Gerrit That seems like a small favorite though.
Richard I mean, Alabama, I mean.
Richard I mean, Alabama, I mean.
Gerrit Alabama's Alabama, but Georgia's supposedly incredible. This is the same Alabama team that literally won against the Auburn team that lost by 21 points at home to New Mexico State. Now anyone who follows college football knows that there's a couple things that no SEC team is ever allowed to do.
Gerrit Alabama's Alabama, but Georgia's supposedly incredible. This is the same Alabama team that literally won against the Auburn team that lost by 21 points at home to New Mexico State. Now anyone who follows college football knows that there's a couple things that no SEC team is ever allowed to do.
Richard Including Vanderbilt.
Richard Including Vanderbilt.
Gerrit One is not pay their players. Two is you can't ever lose at home to...
Gerrit One is not pay their players. Two is you can't ever lose at home to...
Richard Not even New Mexico.
Richard Not even New Mexico.
Gerrit New Mexico State.
Gerrit New Mexico State.
Richard Right. Well, I mean, New Mexico State's having a decent...
Richard Right. Well, I mean, New Mexico State's having a decent...
Gerrit Two years ago, New Mexico State won one game.
Gerrit Two years ago, New Mexico State won one game.
Richard Sunbelt championship, I think.
Richard Sunbelt championship, I think.
Gerrit I think they are. Yeah. I mean, look, that's great. Auburn lost, getting boat raced at home to New Mexico State.
Gerrit I think they are. Yeah. I mean, look, that's great. Auburn lost, getting boat raced at home to New Mexico State.
Richard Fourth and 31. That was the most incredible. I was screaming in my teeth.
Richard Fourth and 31. That was the most incredible. I was screaming in my teeth.
Gerrit And why in the world... You know what? Hey, here's their best receiver. Let's not guard him. Let's guard... We've got four guys on the tight end who's at the 10-yard line. Like, we're guarding a guy on the 10-yard line. Okay, they have to score a touchdown on this play. The game's over if they don't. Let's guard the guy on the 10-yard line. Let's just... Everybody go there. I don't know who called that, but it worked out for Alabama.
Gerrit And why in the world... You know what? Hey, here's their best receiver. Let's not guard him. Let's guard... We've got four guys on the tight end who's at the 10-yard line. Like, we're guarding a guy on the 10-yard line. Okay, they have to score a touchdown on this play. The game's over if they don't. Let's guard the guy on the 10-yard line. Let's just... Everybody go there. I don't know who called that, but it worked out for Alabama.
Richard Long story short, go dogs.
Richard Long story short, go dogs.
Gerrit Yeah, long story short. Anyway, this is reprinted all over the place. And you actually see this is how many rumors about Latter-day Saint history get started and how they get circulated. Once you get a false story into the print media... This is going to sound crazy to someone living in the 21st century. But most newspapers did very little of their own research. Most news outlets simply immediately reprinted or republished something that they heard anywhere else. Their level of source checking was, I heard someone who said this at a different paper and were printing it.
Gerrit Yeah, long story short. Anyway, this is reprinted all over the place. And you actually see this is how many rumors about Latter-day Saint history get started and how they get circulated. Once you get a false story into the print media... This is going to sound crazy to someone living in the 21st century. But most newspapers did very little of their own research. Most news outlets simply immediately reprinted or republished something that they heard anywhere else. Their level of source checking was, I heard someone who said this at a different paper and were printing it.
Richard Yeah, very different from today.
Richard Yeah, very different from today.
Gerrit Yeah, today people vet every source. Today there's no partisanship. Today, I mean, there is no greater source of honesty than the news media. And so this is how the event is titled. Tragical event, Tragical with an AL at the end there, Tragical, which in Baltimore would have been a Tragical event. The following Tragical story of a Mormon preacher. Now notice the original story does not actually say that it's Joseph Smith. The original story says, a Tragical story of a Mormon preacher is given by the editor of the Independent Messenger, which is another newspaper, which becomes defunct very quickly. Okay, so we're already, look how far removed we are already, okay? The following story is given by the editor of another newspaper on the authority of a gentleman from the western part of the state of New York.
Gerrit Yeah, today people vet every source. Today there's no partisanship. Today, I mean, there is no greater source of honesty than the news media. And so this is how the event is titled. Tragical event, Tragical with an AL at the end there, Tragical, which in Baltimore would have been a Tragical event. The following Tragical story of a Mormon preacher. Now notice the original story does not actually say that it's Joseph Smith. The original story says, a Tragical story of a Mormon preacher is given by the editor of the Independent Messenger, which is another newspaper, which becomes defunct very quickly. Okay, so we're already, look how far removed we are already, okay? The following story is given by the editor of another newspaper on the authority of a gentleman from the western part of the state of New York.
Gerrit So before we even begin to read the story.
Gerrit So before we even begin to read the story.
Richard A guy tells an editor that they've copied it.
Richard A guy tells an editor that they've copied it.
Gerrit A guy tells an editor who then writes it, and this editor copies what that person has. That's our most original source. The source itself, I mean, and for the 19th century, this is pretty crazy. The source itself says, we shall expect to see it authenticated by the western papers if it be true.
Gerrit A guy tells an editor who then writes it, and this editor copies what that person has. That's our most original source. The source itself, I mean, and for the 19th century, this is pretty crazy. The source itself says, we shall expect to see it authenticated by the western papers if it be true.
Richard So they're even, they're even couching...
Richard So they're even, they're even couching...
Gerrit So in the original publication, the editor, who is no fan of Mormons and hates Mormons and writes all kinds of negative things about Mormons...
Gerrit So in the original publication, the editor, who is no fan of Mormons and hates Mormons and writes all kinds of negative things about Mormons...
Richard You just assume?
Richard You just assume?
Gerrit No, that's not what I mean. Post, post all kinds of negative things about Mormons. What? Okay. First of all, every newspaper posts negative things about Mormons.
Gerrit No, that's not what I mean. Post, post all kinds of negative things about Mormons. What? Okay. First of all, every newspaper posts negative things about Mormons.
Richard I don't know you, but yes.
Richard I don't know you, but yes.
Gerrit Yeah, it's kind of like, it's not hard to find a negative post about hated groups, even today, right? And so, back then, Latter-day Saints are thoroughly hated. And so, newspapers know that an article someone will read is anything to do with Mormons. Because Mormons are weird, and Mormons are apostate, and Mormons are this, and Mormons are that. So, it doesn't even actually matter what it says. And so, a responsible news outlet would say, okay, that's a crazy story. How about we go find out if that's true? Because if it's true—well, let me read the rest, so you'll know why it's true. But just so you know, sister, the original source of the story itself says, we don't know if this is true. It'll have to be authenticated by other Western newspapers, Western New York newspapers, which it was not.
Gerrit Yeah, it's kind of like, it's not hard to find a negative post about hated groups, even today, right? And so, back then, Latter-day Saints are thoroughly hated. And so, newspapers know that an article someone will read is anything to do with Mormons. Because Mormons are weird, and Mormons are apostate, and Mormons are this, and Mormons are that. So, it doesn't even actually matter what it says. And so, a responsible news outlet would say, okay, that's a crazy story. How about we go find out if that's true? Because if it's true—well, let me read the rest, so you'll know why it's true. But just so you know, sister, the original source of the story itself says, we don't know if this is true. It'll have to be authenticated by other Western newspapers, Western New York newspapers, which it was not.
Richard We expect it to be authenticated.
Richard We expect it to be authenticated.
Gerrit Yeah, yeah.
Gerrit Yeah, yeah.
Richard Is what they said.
Richard Is what they said.
Gerrit Yeah. In a town where the delusion had made numerous converts—this is how you know someone is writing without bias, right? They couldn't just say, in a town where multiple people had converted to Mormonism. Instead, they say, in a town where the delusion had made numerous converts. I think when you refer to a religion as a delusion, that's not the most unbiased way to talk about it. There are other ways that could be, you know, more slightly even keeled. The disciples were summoned to assemble in a wild place, meaning somewhere out in the in the in the forest, circumjacent to a pond on the water of which a gifted elder announced that he should walk and preach. Okay, so these Mormons have just given out, you need to come out. I'm going to go walk on this pond. I'm going to go walk on the water. The believers notified their doubting friends and great things were anticipated.
Gerrit Yeah. In a town where the delusion had made numerous converts—this is how you know someone is writing without bias, right? They couldn't just say, in a town where multiple people had converted to Mormonism. Instead, they say, in a town where the delusion had made numerous converts. I think when you refer to a religion as a delusion, that's not the most unbiased way to talk about it. There are other ways that could be, you know, more slightly even keeled. The disciples were summoned to assemble in a wild place, meaning somewhere out in the in the in the forest, circumjacent to a pond on the water of which a gifted elder announced that he should walk and preach. Okay, so these Mormons have just given out, you need to come out. I'm going to go walk on this pond. I'm going to go walk on the water. The believers notified their doubting friends and great things were anticipated.
Gerrit But it seems there were a few wicked Lamanites who secretly set themselves to make mischief.
Gerrit But it seems there were a few wicked Lamanites who secretly set themselves to make mischief.
Richard That's kind of funny actually.
Richard That's kind of funny actually.
Gerrit Yeah, it shows that they're using the Book of Mormon pejoratively to attack Mormons.
Gerrit Yeah, it shows that they're using the Book of Mormon pejoratively to attack Mormons.
Richard Yeah, that's why I meant by funny.
Richard Yeah, that's why I meant by funny.
Gerrit You know, Latter-day Saints have such a low threshold, and I'm not really referring to Richard here, but I kind of am. Like, we are so used to being hated by everyone, that if anyone even shows us regard at all, they don't even like us, but they show us any form of respect, they suddenly become the most popular person in all Mormondom. Hey, yeah, they were interviewing so-and-so, you know, the actor, and he said, oh, I don't mind the Mormons in Utah. I thought it was fine. And suddenly he's like the most famous actor in Utah. Like, our threshold is, if you don't hate us as much as everyone else hates us, we love you. Yeah, yeah, I think that's pretty fair. The believers were notified to invite their doubting friends. There were a few wicked Lamanites who secretly set themselves to make mischief. Choosing this opportunity just before the appointed day of miracles, they ascertain by means of a raft that the pond had to be traversed was extremely shallow, a thin sheet of water covering a common swamp mire.
Gerrit You know, Latter-day Saints have such a low threshold, and I'm not really referring to Richard here, but I kind of am. Like, we are so used to being hated by everyone, that if anyone even shows us regard at all, they don't even like us, but they show us any form of respect, they suddenly become the most popular person in all Mormondom. Hey, yeah, they were interviewing so-and-so, you know, the actor, and he said, oh, I don't mind the Mormons in Utah. I thought it was fine. And suddenly he's like the most famous actor in Utah. Like, our threshold is, if you don't hate us as much as everyone else hates us, we love you. Yeah, yeah, I think that's pretty fair. The believers were notified to invite their doubting friends. There were a few wicked Lamanites who secretly set themselves to make mischief. Choosing this opportunity just before the appointed day of miracles, they ascertain by means of a raft that the pond had to be traversed was extremely shallow, a thin sheet of water covering a common swamp mire.
Gerrit So they go out to the pond like, yeah, I'm going to go out and walk on Billings Pond or whatever the name of the pond is. So they go out to examine the pond. Well, first of all, there's hardly any water in the pond. It's basically mud with a little bit of water over the top of it. A thin sheet of water covering common swamp mire. This mire was found to be of a consistency nearly strong enough, except within a small central place to sustain the weight of a man. They soon discovered a line of plank laid in perpendicular direction completely across the pond sunk about four inches under the surface of the water. These were fastened down and locked together and so daubed with mud as to be quite imperceptible to the neighbouring detectives.
Gerrit So they go out to the pond like, yeah, I'm going to go out and walk on Billings Pond or whatever the name of the pond is. So they go out to examine the pond. Well, first of all, there's hardly any water in the pond. It's basically mud with a little bit of water over the top of it. A thin sheet of water covering common swamp mire. This mire was found to be of a consistency nearly strong enough, except within a small central place to sustain the weight of a man. They soon discovered a line of plank laid in perpendicular direction completely across the pond sunk about four inches under the surface of the water. These were fastened down and locked together and so daubed with mud as to be quite imperceptible to the neighbouring detectives.
Gerrit They resolved on preventing the miracle by sawing the concealed bridge in pieces just where it crossed the deepest and most dangerous part of the pond. I don't know what the deepest and most dangerous part of the four inch water pond is, but I know if you don't know how to swim, it's the five inch water. They saw it apart and this was done and left seemingly as they found it. So now you got so far, this is the description, that this Mormon preacher went out and found a pond that looked like it had a lot of water in it, but in point of fact was only four or five inches deep, and was just so muddy that you couldn't see the bottom, but it looked like it was a deep pond, and then spent what is unquestionably days and days and days and days putting board planks all across the bottom of where he planned to walk, and then somehow found a way to attach those boards together and also to the bottom of the ground.
Gerrit They resolved on preventing the miracle by sawing the concealed bridge in pieces just where it crossed the deepest and most dangerous part of the pond. I don't know what the deepest and most dangerous part of the four inch water pond is, but I know if you don't know how to swim, it's the five inch water. They saw it apart and this was done and left seemingly as they found it. So now you got so far, this is the description, that this Mormon preacher went out and found a pond that looked like it had a lot of water in it, but in point of fact was only four or five inches deep, and was just so muddy that you couldn't see the bottom, but it looked like it was a deep pond, and then spent what is unquestionably days and days and days and days putting board planks all across the bottom of where he planned to walk, and then somehow found a way to attach those boards together and also to the bottom of the ground.
Gerrit I'm not saying that that's not possible, but I am saying, wow.
Gerrit I'm not saying that that's not possible, but I am saying, wow.
Richard Well, to defend the dangerous nature of this, according to the University of Rochester, a child can drown in as little as one inch of water. So five inches of water.
Richard Well, to defend the dangerous nature of this, according to the University of Rochester, a child can drown in as little as one inch of water. So five inches of water.
Gerrit So you're suggesting that he's putting the planks out there to help kids cross the pond?
Gerrit So you're suggesting that he's putting the planks out there to help kids cross the pond?
Richard Well, I'm just saying, I mean, you're coming at this with pretty aggressive.
Richard Well, I'm just saying, I mean, you're coming at this with pretty aggressive.
Gerrit I am.
Richard I'm saying there are some points that five inches is more dangerous than you think.
Gerrit I am.
Richard I'm saying there are some points that five inches is more dangerous than you think.
Gerrit Except he's not trying to cross it safely. He's trying to lie to everyone to prove he can walk on water. He stands by the University of Rochester, which is in Western New York. You know what I mean? Okay. The expected day arrived. The congregation placed themselves as if in an amphitheater on the surrounding slopes, and the preacher appeared at the edge of the water. Suddenly he raised his senatorian voice, and as he paced his invisible bridge with a step apparently unearthly, taught and warned the people. So they claim that this Mormon preacher then began to demonstrate that he was walking on water as he was preaching to the people, but of course walking on his fake bridge that was actually across the mud of the bot. You know what? I want like a Mormon myth busters where we go try to see if this could even occur.
Gerrit Except he's not trying to cross it safely. He's trying to lie to everyone to prove he can walk on water. He stands by the University of Rochester, which is in Western New York. You know what I mean? Okay. The expected day arrived. The congregation placed themselves as if in an amphitheater on the surrounding slopes, and the preacher appeared at the edge of the water. Suddenly he raised his senatorian voice, and as he paced his invisible bridge with a step apparently unearthly, taught and warned the people. So they claim that this Mormon preacher then began to demonstrate that he was walking on water as he was preaching to the people, but of course walking on his fake bridge that was actually across the mud of the bot. You know what? I want like a Mormon myth busters where we go try to see if this could even occur.
Gerrit We need a donor. We need somebody.
Gerrit We need a donor. We need somebody.
Richard Someone to donate some planks of wood.
Richard Someone to donate some planks of wood.
Gerrit No, no, we need someone to donate the money to fly us somewhere where we could find a pond.
Gerrit No, no, we need someone to donate the money to fly us somewhere where we could find a pond.
Richard Western New York.
Richard Western New York.
Gerrit Yeah, to find a pond that's similar and then try to attach boards to the bottom.
Gerrit Yeah, to find a pond that's similar and then try to attach boards to the bottom.
Richard We can't find a pond around here. We can't. We have to go to New York.
Richard We can't find a pond around here. We can't. We have to go to New York.
Gerrit No, well, look, I'm not trying to steal a vacation out of someone. Why would I go to New York? You know what? You know the best place to do this? Fiji is the place.
Gerrit No, well, look, I'm not trying to steal a vacation out of someone. Why would I go to New York? You know what? You know the best place to do this? Fiji is the place.
Richard Yeah, you can't swing a dead cat with a four-inch pond in Fiji.
Richard Yeah, you can't swing a dead cat with a four-inch pond in Fiji.
Gerrit You need a pond as a certain level anyway. It's just so preposterous.
Gerrit You need a pond as a certain level anyway. It's just so preposterous.
Richard Well, so, I mean, part of the reason that this is as believable as it is to readers is because they already believe that Mormonism is so preposterous anyway.
Richard Well, so, I mean, part of the reason that this is as believable as it is to readers is because they already believe that Mormonism is so preposterous anyway.
Gerrit Which is exactly the confirmation bias that affects all kinds of hated minority groups, whether they are religions, whatever. If people already are predisposed to hate that group, then, yeah, it's super easy to convince them. And if you don't believe me, just do this thought experiment in your mind right now. I don't know what your politics are, okay, you know, even though many of you send them to me in emails. I don't know what your politics are, but I want you to think about this. If whoever you are against in the upcoming American presidential election, whoever that person is that you don't want to win, I don't know who that is, I'm not projecting anything, so whoever that is, you know, whatever constitutional law party candidate you've got in your back pocket, whatever, okay. Let's say a news story breaks about this leader of the opposing party that you don't like, talking about something that they've done.
Gerrit Which is exactly the confirmation bias that affects all kinds of hated minority groups, whether they are religions, whatever. If people already are predisposed to hate that group, then, yeah, it's super easy to convince them. And if you don't believe me, just do this thought experiment in your mind right now. I don't know what your politics are, okay, you know, even though many of you send them to me in emails. I don't know what your politics are, but I want you to think about this. If whoever you are against in the upcoming American presidential election, whoever that person is that you don't want to win, I don't know who that is, I'm not projecting anything, so whoever that is, you know, whatever constitutional law party candidate you've got in your back pocket, whatever, okay. Let's say a news story breaks about this leader of the opposing party that you don't like, talking about something that they've done.
Gerrit How hard is it for you to believe that they've done that nefarious thing? Now, maybe, maybe you wait and, you know, you're a little more circumspect and so you spend a little bit of time trying to research to see it. But your initial reaction, if someone were to tell you the leader of the opposing party did something nefarious, criminal, wrong, evil, would be, yeah, yeah, of course, of course they do. That's what they do. That's the kind of stuff they always do. Right? Now, exact same scenario, only the negative detrimental report is about the person that you want to win. Well, how is your reaction different? Suddenly it goes from, yeah, of course, of course, it's totally true. I don't know the source, but I'm sure it's true, to, well, I mean, do we even know he said that? Suddenly our source matters when it's someone we're trying to defend. And in Latter-day Saints cases, no one's trying to defend them.
Gerrit How hard is it for you to believe that they've done that nefarious thing? Now, maybe, maybe you wait and, you know, you're a little more circumspect and so you spend a little bit of time trying to research to see it. But your initial reaction, if someone were to tell you the leader of the opposing party did something nefarious, criminal, wrong, evil, would be, yeah, yeah, of course, of course they do. That's what they do. That's the kind of stuff they always do. Right? Now, exact same scenario, only the negative detrimental report is about the person that you want to win. Well, how is your reaction different? Suddenly it goes from, yeah, of course, of course, it's totally true. I don't know the source, but I'm sure it's true, to, well, I mean, do we even know he said that? Suddenly our source matters when it's someone we're trying to defend. And in Latter-day Saints cases, no one's trying to defend them.
Gerrit So the sources never matter. Now there are occasions where the outrages against Latter-day Saints will be so great that people will say, hey, hey, like I hate Mormons too, but you can't just like murder them and stuff. I mean, so you'll occasionally get that. But even then, more commonly, what you will get is, yeah, it's so sad that so many were killed in Missouri, but I mean, they kind of deserved it. It's too bad that their leaders led them into that.
Gerrit So the sources never matter. Now there are occasions where the outrages against Latter-day Saints will be so great that people will say, hey, hey, like I hate Mormons too, but you can't just like murder them and stuff. I mean, so you'll occasionally get that. But even then, more commonly, what you will get is, yeah, it's so sad that so many were killed in Missouri, but I mean, they kind of deserved it. It's too bad that their leaders led them into that.
Richard It's the example you gave at the conference that you attended where the guy's like, but polygamy though, right?
Richard It's the example you gave at the conference that you attended where the guy's like, but polygamy though, right?
Gerrit Yeah, it's all about polygamy, right? Well, I mean, no, no, no, they were being murdered long before that. But polygamy? Yeah, polygamy. I mean, so the reality is that, yeah, this is poorly sourced. But the other reason why it's believable is when you attack a despised group and you provide detail in a narrative like this, well, hey, this is a fun story. This is a story I can tell at the pub. Hey, you remember that Mormon preacher in New York? He was trying to walk on water, but this guy's getting increasingly drunk as he tells this story. Of course, he's trying to walk on water, you know, as he's, you know, this fills that kind of need of otherizing someone else by denigrating them, right? You're deliberately making it seem like anyone who believes in Mormonism must be an absolute idiot, right? Only stupid people who are who are, you know, tricked by a fake walking on water could possibly believe it.
Gerrit Yeah, it's all about polygamy, right? Well, I mean, no, no, no, they were being murdered long before that. But polygamy? Yeah, polygamy. I mean, so the reality is that, yeah, this is poorly sourced. But the other reason why it's believable is when you attack a despised group and you provide detail in a narrative like this, well, hey, this is a fun story. This is a story I can tell at the pub. Hey, you remember that Mormon preacher in New York? He was trying to walk on water, but this guy's getting increasingly drunk as he tells this story. Of course, he's trying to walk on water, you know, as he's, you know, this fills that kind of need of otherizing someone else by denigrating them, right? You're deliberately making it seem like anyone who believes in Mormonism must be an absolute idiot, right? Only stupid people who are who are, you know, tricked by a fake walking on water could possibly believe it.
Gerrit That is a way of delegitimizing their belief, right? Oh, the only reason you believe is, is that you you haven't done X. I remember when I was on my mission, I've told the story before on the podcast, but you know what? We have a lot of turnover in our listeners and no one really listens anyway.
Gerrit That is a way of delegitimizing their belief, right? Oh, the only reason you believe is, is that you you haven't done X. I remember when I was on my mission, I've told the story before on the podcast, but you know what? We have a lot of turnover in our listeners and no one really listens anyway.
Richard And it's for Rigdon now. That's fine.
Richard And it's for Rigdon now. That's fine.
Gerrit Yeah. Hey, Rigdon, this is for you. This is for you. I remember when we were on our mission in Wisconsin, there was a preacher who made it a habit of trying to attack Latter-day Saint missionaries. And it was to the point where my companion who'd been in the area when I got there knew this guy's car, because as he was driving past us one day on the street, he slammed on his brakes, and my command is like, oh no, oh no, oh no, and I'm like, what is this like? I mean, it was like a Geo Metro. So it's not like I thought like, oh no, we've clearly offended someone in the gang community. No, I mean, it was, I didn't know what was going on. And up hops out this pastor. Well, this pastor regularly attacked Latter-day Saint missionaries. And the way he attacked them was the same. I mean, it's all the same kind of anti-Mormon stuff. But the primary point of attack that he would make is that Latter-day Saint missionaries don't know their Bible.
Gerrit Yeah. Hey, Rigdon, this is for you. This is for you. I remember when we were on our mission in Wisconsin, there was a preacher who made it a habit of trying to attack Latter-day Saint missionaries. And it was to the point where my companion who'd been in the area when I got there knew this guy's car, because as he was driving past us one day on the street, he slammed on his brakes, and my command is like, oh no, oh no, oh no, and I'm like, what is this like? I mean, it was like a Geo Metro. So it's not like I thought like, oh no, we've clearly offended someone in the gang community. No, I mean, it was, I didn't know what was going on. And up hops out this pastor. Well, this pastor regularly attacked Latter-day Saint missionaries. And the way he attacked them was the same. I mean, it's all the same kind of anti-Mormon stuff. But the primary point of attack that he would make is that Latter-day Saint missionaries don't know their Bible.
Gerrit And the only reason why you believe in Mormonism, the only reason why you belong to this cult is you've never really read the Bible. You haven't read the Bible. And that's why you've been able to be deceived by these Mormons. Well, he hops out of the car and immediately, and my companion already had multiple run-ins. This guy apparently, any time he ever saw Latter-day Saint missionaries would do this. He'd stop his car middle of the street and go out and attack them to let them know that they were all going to burn in hell, which he did let me know I was going to burn in hell.
Gerrit And the only reason why you believe in Mormonism, the only reason why you belong to this cult is you've never really read the Bible. You haven't read the Bible. And that's why you've been able to be deceived by these Mormons. Well, he hops out of the car and immediately, and my companion already had multiple run-ins. This guy apparently, any time he ever saw Latter-day Saint missionaries would do this. He'd stop his car middle of the street and go out and attack them to let them know that they were all going to burn in hell, which he did let me know I was going to burn in hell.
Richard Well, I mean-
Richard Well, I mean-
Gerrit He said he felt bad that I was going to hell though. He did. He said, you know what? I feel bad. I feel bad that you're out here doing this when you're just going to burn in hell. That's what he said. I was like, well, you know what?
Gerrit He said he felt bad that I was going to hell though. He did. He said, you know what? I feel bad. I feel bad that you're out here doing this when you're just going to burn in hell. That's what he said. I was like, well, you know what?
Richard That's nice.
Richard That's nice.
Gerrit I appreciate that.
Gerrit I appreciate that.
Richard Yeah, tip of the cap.
Richard Yeah, tip of the cap.
Gerrit I hate to break it to you. In Mormonism, we don't think anyone's going to hell. Not even you, which is really where I'm at a disadvantage here, right? I don't have the ability to push back and say, I'll see you there. Well, I guess I won't because we won't see anyone there. Anyway, this occurred a couple of times where, you know, and it was always the same refrain. You guys haven't read the Bible. You haven't read the Bible. One day, we're teaching some people and we start to track the street around them. We knock on a door. The guy answers the door and he's like, he's like, oh, oh, yeah, we'd be really interested. So already all kinds of alarm bells are going off in my head. I served a mission in Wisconsin. The only people really interested was nobody, okay? So anyone who when the door opened and someone was really excited to see you, that was fake. You knew it. And they said, yeah, well, we're just finishing dinner right now, but we'd love to have you come back in about 20 minutes or so. And I like, look, the table's completely bare.
Gerrit I hate to break it to you. In Mormonism, we don't think anyone's going to hell. Not even you, which is really where I'm at a disadvantage here, right? I don't have the ability to push back and say, I'll see you there. Well, I guess I won't because we won't see anyone there. Anyway, this occurred a couple of times where, you know, and it was always the same refrain. You guys haven't read the Bible. You haven't read the Bible. One day, we're teaching some people and we start to track the street around them. We knock on a door. The guy answers the door and he's like, he's like, oh, oh, yeah, we'd be really interested. So already all kinds of alarm bells are going off in my head. I served a mission in Wisconsin. The only people really interested was nobody, okay? So anyone who when the door opened and someone was really excited to see you, that was fake. You knew it. And they said, yeah, well, we're just finishing dinner right now, but we'd love to have you come back in about 20 minutes or so. And I like, look, the table's completely bare.
Gerrit No one's sitting there eating like the I can see inside like, oh, you're just finishing, just finishing dinner, huh? Well, so we go and we knock on the rest of the doors in a futile attempt to get anyone to listen to us. And we get head back over to the house, heading back over 20 minutes about right as we had head back over, whose car do we see pulling into the driveway? Brother Dave, the pastor who was always attacking us. And so come to find out that we'd knocked on like one of his best friend's houses. And so we just call this pastor over. And so we go, I mean, I'm not going to be a coward, right? So we go knock on the door. Now I didn't know, I mean, okay, maybe I did know. I hope my mission president isn't listening to this.
Gerrit No one's sitting there eating like the I can see inside like, oh, you're just finishing, just finishing dinner, huh? Well, so we go and we knock on the rest of the doors in a futile attempt to get anyone to listen to us. And we get head back over to the house, heading back over 20 minutes about right as we had head back over, whose car do we see pulling into the driveway? Brother Dave, the pastor who was always attacking us. And so come to find out that we'd knocked on like one of his best friend's houses. And so we just call this pastor over. And so we go, I mean, I'm not going to be a coward, right? So we go knock on the door. Now I didn't know, I mean, okay, maybe I did know. I hope my mission president isn't listening to this.
Richard He's not.
Richard He's not.
Gerrit Yeah, okay, yeah. It's safe, it is a safe thing, is that when I say is someone listening to this and the answer is always nobody, makes it easier.
Gerrit Yeah, okay, yeah. It's safe, it is a safe thing, is that when I say is someone listening to this and the answer is always nobody, makes it easier.
Richard Sister Rollins is listening to this.
Richard Sister Rollins is listening to this.
Gerrit Well, she stopped listening weeks ago because we didn't get to her email till now.
Gerrit Well, she stopped listening weeks ago because we didn't get to her email till now.
Richard That's true.
Richard That's true.
Gerrit Yeah. Anyway, so we go inside and we start trying to teach, like we said, so we start trying to teach our first discussion. And we get about to the Joseph Smith story and Brother Dave just immediately interjects himself and starts going on and on. And he starts this.
Gerrit Yeah. Anyway, so we go inside and we start trying to teach, like we said, so we start trying to teach our first discussion. And we get about to the Joseph Smith story and Brother Dave just immediately interjects himself and starts going on and on. And he starts this.
Richard He waited that long?
Richard He waited that long?
Gerrit He did. It was interesting. It was interesting. I think-
Gerrit He did. It was interesting. It was interesting. I think-
Richard So you made it through most people believing it's premium.
Richard So you made it through most people believing it's premium.
Gerrit I feel like he thought that he would be able to maintain his composure longer, just like me answering this question on the email. I thought that it wouldn't take me this long because I didn't get mad. This episode's for Becky because she likes it when I'm angry. Anyway, he interrupted and started citing things. And he said, look, your religion's false. It's obviously false. The Bible says that it's false. There are all these scriptures in the Bible that demonstrate that what you believe is false. And he then began to try to quote a passage from Isaiah and he couldn't remember.
Gerrit I feel like he thought that he would be able to maintain his composure longer, just like me answering this question on the email. I thought that it wouldn't take me this long because I didn't get mad. This episode's for Becky because she likes it when I'm angry. Anyway, he interrupted and started citing things. And he said, look, your religion's false. It's obviously false. The Bible says that it's false. There are all these scriptures in the Bible that demonstrate that what you believe is false. And he then began to try to quote a passage from Isaiah and he couldn't remember.
Richard Oh boy. So he's stepping into Mormon country on that. Isaiah's.
Richard Oh boy. So he's stepping into Mormon country on that. Isaiah's.
Gerrit He goes to quote this passage from Isaiah. And the Bible was a common anti-Mormon thing, right? That there are no other gods, right? And he said, that's why in Isaiah it says, and he stumbled a little bit. I mean, look, everybody stumbled. I stumble all the time. But he had already made this gigantic big deal over and over and over. And this is the third time we met with him, where we didn't meet with him. He showed up when we were trying to teach people, that the only reason we believe is that none of us have read the Bible. You read one verse here, one verse there, if you really read the Bible. And so as he's stammering there, trying to remember the verse of the anti-Mormon, you know, critique that he's trying to lob at me, I said, well, the verse you're looking for, is in chapter blank, blank, and told him what it is. And I said, but I guess we need to read the Bible more, right? Now that wasn't right.
Gerrit He goes to quote this passage from Isaiah. And the Bible was a common anti-Mormon thing, right? That there are no other gods, right? And he said, that's why in Isaiah it says, and he stumbled a little bit. I mean, look, everybody stumbled. I stumble all the time. But he had already made this gigantic big deal over and over and over. And this is the third time we met with him, where we didn't meet with him. He showed up when we were trying to teach people, that the only reason we believe is that none of us have read the Bible. You read one verse here, one verse there, if you really read the Bible. And so as he's stammering there, trying to remember the verse of the anti-Mormon, you know, critique that he's trying to lob at me, I said, well, the verse you're looking for, is in chapter blank, blank, and told him what it is. And I said, but I guess we need to read the Bible more, right? Now that wasn't right.
Richard No, that was not right.
Richard No, that was not right.
Gerrit That was not right. But I was mad then. I'd say, I have a problem. I have a problem.
Gerrit That was not right. But I was mad then. I'd say, I have a problem. I have a problem.
Richard What was his response to that?
Richard What was his response to that?
Gerrit He was silent for a minute. And he like turned to it to me, cause I get-
Gerrit He was silent for a minute. And he like turned to it to me, cause I get-
Richard Yeah, cause you're a liar.
Richard Yeah, cause you're a liar.
Gerrit He's like, yeah, yeah, that is it. I mean, well, I mean, so he stammered a little more, and he's like, well, how can you know that and still believe? And I was like, I've read the Bible. I've read the Bible multiple times. I believe because of the Holy Spirit. No, we went on a whole nother thing. But the point is, his whole argument was to delegitimize my faith. Only stupid people, only uneducated people, only tricked people, only people who have something to gain, only people who are skimming tithing receipts off the top, only people who are X, only people who are Y could possibly believe. Instead of allowing the legitimacy that we allow other people in their religious beliefs, that they really, really, really believe. Even if it's weird, they really believe it. And instead of trying to make it seem like they're stupid or they're idiots, or they just aren't educated the way I'm educated, maybe we just let people tell their own story.
Gerrit He's like, yeah, yeah, that is it. I mean, well, I mean, so he stammered a little more, and he's like, well, how can you know that and still believe? And I was like, I've read the Bible. I've read the Bible multiple times. I believe because of the Holy Spirit. No, we went on a whole nother thing. But the point is, his whole argument was to delegitimize my faith. Only stupid people, only uneducated people, only tricked people, only people who have something to gain, only people who are skimming tithing receipts off the top, only people who are X, only people who are Y could possibly believe. Instead of allowing the legitimacy that we allow other people in their religious beliefs, that they really, really, really believe. Even if it's weird, they really believe it. And instead of trying to make it seem like they're stupid or they're idiots, or they just aren't educated the way I'm educated, maybe we just let people tell their own story.
Gerrit I digress a great deal, however. So back to the Mormon preacher who's walking back and forth on his planks that no one can see, which first of all is preposterous. I want you to think about this. If the water's two or three inches deep, and it's so dark and muddy that you can't see the boards, but someone's clearly walking on boards, that would be ridiculously obvious from the shoreline. That's why we need to do a MythBusters on it. But alas, so back to him walking back and forth. All ears were open, every eye strained from its sockets with astonishment as he's walking on the water. But alas, just as the miracle worker seemed to have wrought a conviction of his divine power to the wandering hearts of the multitude, lo, he stepped on one of the detached pieces of plank and sailed sideways and instantly plunged, floundering and sinking into the deep water mire, mingling shrieks and screams and shouts of the specta...
Gerrit I digress a great deal, however. So back to the Mormon preacher who's walking back and forth on his planks that no one can see, which first of all is preposterous. I want you to think about this. If the water's two or three inches deep, and it's so dark and muddy that you can't see the boards, but someone's clearly walking on boards, that would be ridiculously obvious from the shoreline. That's why we need to do a MythBusters on it. But alas, so back to him walking back and forth. All ears were open, every eye strained from its sockets with astonishment as he's walking on the water. But alas, just as the miracle worker seemed to have wrought a conviction of his divine power to the wandering hearts of the multitude, lo, he stepped on one of the detached pieces of plank and sailed sideways and instantly plunged, floundering and sinking into the deep water mire, mingling shrieks and screams and shouts of the specta...
Gerrit Sorry, mingling shrieks and screams and shouts of the spectators, all in a rush of commotion were appalling. The scene was indescribable, but don't worry, this editor is going to describe it for us. Even those who had spoiled the miracle were filled with horror when they actually saw the unfortunate imposter disappear. They had not dreamed that their trick would cost him more than the fright, discomfort and disgrace of being submersed and afterwards struggling to the shore, all along taking it for granted that his plank would enable him to swim. However, it might treacherously fail him to walk. But the tail closes with the close of his life and the consequent close of Mormonism in that vicinity.
Gerrit Sorry, mingling shrieks and screams and shouts of the spectators, all in a rush of commotion were appalling. The scene was indescribable, but don't worry, this editor is going to describe it for us. Even those who had spoiled the miracle were filled with horror when they actually saw the unfortunate imposter disappear. They had not dreamed that their trick would cost him more than the fright, discomfort and disgrace of being submersed and afterwards struggling to the shore, all along taking it for granted that his plank would enable him to swim. However, it might treacherously fail him to walk. But the tail closes with the close of his life and the consequent close of Mormonism in that vicinity.
Richard He died.
Richard He died.
Gerrit He died.
Gerrit He died.
Richard Oh no.
Gerrit That's why it's a tragical incident.
Richard Oh no.
Gerrit That's why it's a tragical incident.
Richard Joseph died.
Richard Joseph died.
Gerrit Well, this preacher does.
Gerrit Well, this preacher does.
Richard Oh, I see.
Richard Oh, I see.
Gerrit But then eventually it becomes Joseph, which is weird, right? Because he was murdered by a bunch of anti-Mormons. This is a garbage.
Gerrit But then eventually it becomes Joseph, which is weird, right? Because he was murdered by a bunch of anti-Mormons. This is a garbage.
Richard This is 1844? This is June 1844?
Richard This is 1844? This is June 1844?
Gerrit No, this is 1834. But Joseph, in a miracle, is able to manifest himself for the next 10 years.
Gerrit No, this is 1834. But Joseph, in a miracle, is able to manifest himself for the next 10 years.
Richard Can I tell you what? I would actually, that's almost more impressive than the walking on the water.
Richard Can I tell you what? I would actually, that's almost more impressive than the walking on the water.
Gerrit If he was dead, but still alive? Anyway, he sank, and long before the confounded assembly, where in any condition to afford him relief, he perished, a victim to his own imposture.
Gerrit If he was dead, but still alive? Anyway, he sank, and long before the confounded assembly, where in any condition to afford him relief, he perished, a victim to his own imposture.
Richard It's well written.
Richard It's well written.
Gerrit Oh, it's clearly, it's written by an editor. It's beautiful, right? It has all the kinds of things you want in it, right? This, you know, this story. Here's the problem. This is the original source. The original source says, oh yeah, this story will be confirmed. As I've said before on this podcast.
Gerrit Oh, it's clearly, it's written by an editor. It's beautiful, right? It has all the kinds of things you want in it, right? This, you know, this story. Here's the problem. This is the original source. The original source says, oh yeah, this story will be confirmed. As I've said before on this podcast.
Richard Well, so it's original source because we don't have the editor of that other paper, or we don't know who the gentleman is.
Richard Well, so it's original source because we don't have the editor of that other paper, or we don't know who the gentleman is.
Gerrit Who's the gentleman from Western New York. I mean, this is essentially the same as me walking into a local newspaper today saying, I watched Richard try to walk on water and he fell down and died. And then that person going to the Salt Lake Tribune and saying, hey, we've got this great story, you know.
Gerrit Who's the gentleman from Western New York. I mean, this is essentially the same as me walking into a local newspaper today saying, I watched Richard try to walk on water and he fell down and died. And then that person going to the Salt Lake Tribune and saying, hey, we've got this great story, you know.
Richard Richard's dead.
Richard Richard's dead.
Gerrit Yeah, well, so that's the best part about this, right? This is, it really is a jumping of the shark. When you try to claim death, it really just is. You should always claim he was embarrassed, but he's an, notice there's no name of this preacher, right? He's so well known that the entire community is there to see him, but the informant who knew all about this story doesn't know who it is, right? That's a pretty big red flag. Yeah, we don't have a name, but just everybody knows him. Everyone knows him. Larry, the drunk, everyone knows him.
Gerrit Yeah, well, so that's the best part about this, right? This is, it really is a jumping of the shark. When you try to claim death, it really just is. You should always claim he was embarrassed, but he's an, notice there's no name of this preacher, right? He's so well known that the entire community is there to see him, but the informant who knew all about this story doesn't know who it is, right? That's a pretty big red flag. Yeah, we don't have a name, but just everybody knows him. Everyone knows him. Larry, the drunk, everyone knows him.
Richard Knew him.
Richard Knew him.
Gerrit Bill, the adulterer.
Gerrit Bill, the adulterer.
Richard They knew him.
Richard They knew him.
Gerrit Well, yes. Because he's no longer with us.
Gerrit Well, yes. Because he's no longer with us.
Richard He's dead.
Richard He's dead.
Gerrit Now, it's kind of like, like I said, I've said on the podcast before. One of the easiest things in the world to determine is whether or not someone is dead. It's actually pretty simple, right? I realize there's cases where someone goes missing and then you don't know whether or not, you don't know what happened to them. But if there's a Mormon preacher in a town and he's been there for a while and a bunch of people have been converted by him and he drowns in a mire pond because he was trying to walk on water, he's going to have a name. People are going to know that he's dead. It's pretty simple to figure out whether or not someone is dead in that circumstance. And of course, we don't have a name because we don't have a body, because we don't have a death, because the story's made up. Now, this story, as I said, is reprinted all over the place. From the deep south to the papers in the west, it's in Indiana within days, it's down in Milledgeville, it's in Virginia, it's in the Catholic paper, the Boston Jesuit.
Gerrit Now, it's kind of like, like I said, I've said on the podcast before. One of the easiest things in the world to determine is whether or not someone is dead. It's actually pretty simple, right? I realize there's cases where someone goes missing and then you don't know whether or not, you don't know what happened to them. But if there's a Mormon preacher in a town and he's been there for a while and a bunch of people have been converted by him and he drowns in a mire pond because he was trying to walk on water, he's going to have a name. People are going to know that he's dead. It's pretty simple to figure out whether or not someone is dead in that circumstance. And of course, we don't have a name because we don't have a body, because we don't have a death, because the story's made up. Now, this story, as I said, is reprinted all over the place. From the deep south to the papers in the west, it's in Indiana within days, it's down in Milledgeville, it's in Virginia, it's in the Catholic paper, the Boston Jesuit.
Gerrit That's kind of a giveaway that it's a Catholic paper, right?
Gerrit That's kind of a giveaway that it's a Catholic paper, right?
Richard I get all my betting lines from the Boston Jesuit. The Boston Jesuit.
Richard I get all my betting lines from the Boston Jesuit. The Boston Jesuit.
Gerrit Where were they on the New Hampshire game then?
Gerrit Where were they on the New Hampshire game then?
Richard Yeah, it's true.
Richard Yeah, it's true.
Gerrit I told you they were looking past, they're going to Kansas. It's true. If you're at UConn, didn't quite cover.
Gerrit I told you they were looking past, they're going to Kansas. It's true. If you're at UConn, didn't quite cover.
Richard Yeah, they only beat by 20. By 20.
Richard Yeah, they only beat by 20. By 20.
Gerrit And they were supposed to win by 31. You know what?
Gerrit And they were supposed to win by 31. You know what?
Richard 30 and a half.
Gerrit Well, I mean, it's hard to get a half point in basketball.
Richard 30 and a half.
Gerrit Well, I mean, it's hard to get a half point in basketball.
Richard Well, that's why I don't wanna push.
Richard Well, that's why I don't wanna push.
Gerrit Well, so the Boston Jesuit, of course, a Catholic newspaper reports it as well. It's repeated everywhere, although not everywhere with the same caveat of we don't have any, we don't know whether or not this is confirmed.
Gerrit Well, so the Boston Jesuit, of course, a Catholic newspaper reports it as well. It's repeated everywhere, although not everywhere with the same caveat of we don't have any, we don't know whether or not this is confirmed.
Richard Well, so they drop all of that.
Richard Well, so they drop all of that.
Gerrit Well, why would you put into your paper, we don't know whether or not this happened?
Gerrit Well, why would you put into your paper, we don't know whether or not this happened?
Richard Well, because they printed it, so it must be good enough.
Richard Well, because they printed it, so it must be good enough.
Gerrit Well, so let's go to the fact that this actually gets widespread enough treatment that the Latter-day Saints themselves decide that they need to respond to it.
Gerrit Well, so let's go to the fact that this actually gets widespread enough treatment that the Latter-day Saints themselves decide that they need to respond to it.
Richard When does Joseph's name get attached to it? That's later in life? Oh, I'm jumping ahead.
Richard When does Joseph's name get attached to it? That's later in life? Oh, I'm jumping ahead.
Gerrit You know what? This may be a two-parter.
Gerrit You know what? This may be a two-parter.
Richard I can see, so not knowing any of this information before, we talked about the pre-show meeting where I said, all right, so you're gonna find out.
Richard I can see, so not knowing any of this information before, we talked about the pre-show meeting where I said, all right, so you're gonna find out.
Gerrit Yeah.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard And I can now see why you're as irritated as you are, as this is the most ridiculous thing.
Richard And I can now see why you're as irritated as you are, as this is the most ridiculous thing.
Gerrit And someone in the 21st century is using it as though it's a good argument. Isn't that a special kind of crazy? You know what I mean? That this person is calling up these sister missionaries and saying, hey, look at what a great argument I have. And in fact, this had made such inroads, it had been spread so far within the few weeks that it circulated like wildfire, that in fact, the church's newspaper, the Evening and Morning Star, is going to respond to this. And we will talk about that in our next episode. So if you want the exciting conclusion to plank walking, drowning in a Meyer guy preacher, but possibly Joseph Smith, but not really, but possibly, but that's the worst source ever story. Join us next week, where we'll talk about that and then some other questions that we received from our listeners.
Gerrit And someone in the 21st century is using it as though it's a good argument. Isn't that a special kind of crazy? You know what I mean? That this person is calling up these sister missionaries and saying, hey, look at what a great argument I have. And in fact, this had made such inroads, it had been spread so far within the few weeks that it circulated like wildfire, that in fact, the church's newspaper, the Evening and Morning Star, is going to respond to this. And we will talk about that in our next episode. So if you want the exciting conclusion to plank walking, drowning in a Meyer guy preacher, but possibly Joseph Smith, but not really, but possibly, but that's the worst source ever story. Join us next week, where we'll talk about that and then some other questions that we received from our listeners.
Gerrit Thank you so much for joining us.
Gerrit Thank you so much for joining us.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.
Quote board
Make a share card from any lineWell, Duolingo doesn't, he said Duolingo doesn't have a you're being robbed chapter, which is pretty funny.
Yeah, it's like a shot put event with Archangel Michael.
It's one of our key demos, is people who are not conscious.
When the, Standard of Truth podcast, when the alternative is nothing, it's not bad.
These are dumb arguments. They're dumb arguments because first of all, they deny the power of God, but second of all, they are sourced horrendously, and they are all of the, it just stands to reason variety.
Suddenly our source matters when it's someone we're trying to defend.
I believe because of the Holy Spirit.
One of the easiest things in the world to determine is whether or not someone is dead.
Source shelf
12 sources cited on air · verses link to the scriptures, Joseph Smith’s documents to the Joseph Smith Papersletter
Brigham Young to the Saints at Garden Grove, Iowa, 1846-47
Brigham, tongue in cheek, suggests selling their property to Missourians glad to be rid of the Mormons.
scripture
John 9:24-25
whereas I was blind, now I see
The man born blind; Gerrit says efforts to explain away miracles go back to the New Testament (identified, not cited on air).
scripture
Matthew 28:13
well, his followers came and they stole the body.
The claim that Jesus's disciples stole his body (identified, not cited on air).
newspaper
Saturday Evening Post, "Tragical Event," New York, late March or early April 1834
The original printing of the walking-on-water story, quickly reprinted from Indiana to Milledgeville, Georgia.
newspaper
Saturday Evening Post, "Tragical Event" (1834), sourcing
a Tragical story of a Mormon preacher is given by the editor of the Independent Messenger
The Post credits the editor of the Independent Messenger, who credits an unnamed gentleman from western New York.
newspaper
Saturday Evening Post, "Tragical Event" (1834), the caveat
we shall expect to see it authenticated by the western papers if it be true.
Even the original admits the story is unconfirmed; it never was.
newspaper
Saturday Evening Post, "Tragical Event" (1834), the setup
In a town where the delusion had made numerous converts
The language of "the delusion" and "wicked Lamanites" shows the writer's bias.
newspaper
Saturday Evening Post, "Tragical Event" (1834), the planks
They soon discovered a line of plank laid in perpendicular direction completely across the pond sunk about four inches under the surface of the water.
Skeptics find planks four inches under a shallow, muddy pond and saw them apart.
article
University of Rochester, on drowning risk
a child can drown in as little as one inch of water.
Richard's crack research: a child can drown in as little as one inch of water.
newspaper
Saturday Evening Post, "Tragical Event" (1834), the ending
he stepped on one of the detached pieces of plank and sailed sideways and instantly plunged
The unnamed preacher steps on a cut plank and drowns, with no name, no body and no confirmation.
newspaper
Boston Jesuit (1834 reprint)
A Catholic paper among the many that reprinted the story, not always with the original caveat.
newspaper
The Evening and the Morning Star (Church newspaper)
The story spread so widely that the Church paper responded, which Part 2 covers.
Episode quiz
Pass to stamp your passportQuestion 1 of 8Score 0
About how many missionaries had asked for premium access in the past couple of weeks?
Fun with Numbers
This episode, counted from its transcript1:00:03long
17.6 minbefore the topic starts
12sources read or named
2scripture passages
3different years mentioned
0dollar amounts said
From 1834 to 1846
Every year mentioned in the episode. Tap one to jump to it.
Putting numbers to words
All 9,887 words of the automatic transcript, counted against a word list for each theme. It shows how much a theme comes up, not what was said about it. See the lists
What this episode talks about more than usual
- Missionary work30 mentions, 2.3 times the show’s usual rate
- Death and the afterlife21 mentions, 1.4 times the show’s usual rate
Names said most
Joseph counts any Joseph.
Joseph 16Sidney Rigdon 6Jesus Christ 3Brigham Young 3
Signature words
Said often here and in few other episodes.
pond 20plank 8mire 5knife 7reprinted 5inches 5
More from this episode
Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.
Claim check
What critics say, and what the episode foundJoseph Smith tried to fake walking on water using boards hidden under the surface and was exposed.
If something was printed in many newspapers, it must have been checked.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.
Take it to class
Ready to copy into a lesson or a textThe walking-on-water tale traces back to an unnamed gentleman telling an editor about an unnamed preacher, and the first printing admitted it still needed to be confirmed.
Accusing a religious leader of faking a miracle is an old trope; even Jesus's enemies claimed his disciples stole his body.
We tend to demand sources only when a story hurts someone we like, so check the sources even when a story confirms what you already believe.
Arguments that say only uneducated or tricked people could believe are ways to delegitimize faith; we can let people tell their own story.
Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.
Banter bin
The running jokes, for people who skip aheadThe Moroni seriesRichard welcomes everyone to "Moroni Part 32"; Gerrit says it's a potpourri (1:01, 1:11).
Angry GerritBecky's favorite episodes are Gerrit Unhinged, and this one is for her (1:15, 1:26, 22:16, 48:34).
Robbed twice by the same guyRigdon asks to see the gun, has no phone because the same man stole it, and Duolingo lacks a "you're being robbed" chapter (3:07, 4:17, 6:52).
When the alternative is nothingRigdon's review of the podcast: "not bad," now T-shirt material (13:06, 13:23).
Our key demosMortuaries, coma wards and people who are not conscious (12:13, 12:38).
Gettysburg Park RangerSister Rawlings avoids becoming one, the greatest use of the term yet (10:36, 11:10).
Baltimore's missing LThe tour starts at Fort McHenry, where you have to buy an L like a vowel from Vanna White (15:45, 16:19).
The crack research staffRichard on his laptop; later, the University of Rochester on drowning in one inch of water (10:30, 37:48).
Mormon MythBustersA donor is needed to test the plank trick; Fiji is the ideal location (38:09, 39:29).
Go dogsMilledgeville, Georgia, the Auburn loss to New Mexico State, and betting lines from the Boston Jesuit (27:22, 28:40, 56:59).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag
Your question could be next week’s episodeQuestions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
Go deeperWhere to read more.
Go deeper
Deep dives the episode points towardHow 19th-century newspapers reprinted stories from each other, and how rumors about early Saints spread (29:06).
The Evening and the Morning Star's response to the walking-on-water story, picked up in Part 2 (58:27).
The Saints' way stations at Garden Grove and Mount Pisgah in Iowa, 1846 (19:53).
Why confirmation bias makes hated groups easy targets, and how to check sources about people you dislike (39:59).
SOT Litner · S3E48.