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S3E50 · Testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith
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Standard of Truth · Season 3 · Episode 50 · 58:16

Testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith

This was supposed to be Moroni Addendum Part One, but Gerrit never got to Moroni; instead he bore the testimony he'd given in elders quorum, sparked by President Ballard's final conference address.

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The question ·

Why does Joseph Smith matter so much, and what do you give up if you give up on him?

Gerrit

Richard promises a Moroni addendum, but it never comes. Derek asks about the Treaty of Lutatius, and Gerrit explains the First Punic War and admits he thinks about the Roman Empire every day. Derek also shares that family members left the church over videos and posts, which leads Gerrit to a personal story about President Ballard giving his wife a blessing when she had cancer, even while exhausted. Gerrit says everything Latter-day Saints believe about Jesus, God and the afterlife comes through Joseph, and few critics have read even one volume of the Joseph Smith Papers. He closes with Pascal's Wager, Elder Uchtdorf's "doubt your doubts," and a reminder that some questions will only be answered by the Spirit or after this life.

Who comes upJoseph SmithM. Russell BallardDieter F. UchtdorfBlaise PascalFawn BrodieHamilcar BarcaGaius Lutatius CatulusSolomon Spaulding
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More Moroni, maybe

Richard promises a Moroni addendum and plugs Fawn Brodie Roulette.

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Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. In this week's podcast, there's still so much more about Moroni that we haven't gotten to.
Gerrit Well, the people cry out.
Richard The people cry out, we want more Moroni.
Gerrit We were flooded with, hey, how come you only did five parts on Moroni? What about X? X, I mean.
Richard Yeah, so we're going to give you Moroni Addendum Part One, where Gerrit has many more things.
Gerrit Moroni Addendum Part One. So you're assuming there's gonna be more than one addendum?
Richard Addenda, yes.
Gerrit So we're gonna have a plural addenda to this.
Richard That's correct. I assume, I assume as much. Well, and you know what? Who better than Moroni? Honestly, we haven't done anything larger than a four-parter, and that was on your dissertation topic, for heaven's sakes.
Gerrit And so we just, you know what? Moroni, 10 parts.
Richard Yeah, he deserves it.
Gerrit You know what? Let's just start calling this the Moroni podcast.
Richard Yeah, we're huge fans. But before we do, we're gonna turn to the Phebe Draper mailbag, an email we received from Derek, subject, The Treaty of Lutatius?
Gerrit Yes. I mean, well, if you were, as a Westerner, that's how we would say it, right?
Richard Okay.
Gerrit I mean, cause, I mean.
Richard So how would I say it if I wasn't a Westerner?
Gerrit Well, I mean, I'm assuming that Latin, they would say like Lutatius, right?
Richard Ah, yes, yes. I apologize.
Gerrit I don't speak Latin either. So someone who does speak Latin can call us up without our number. You know what? Call us live.
Richard Call us live. 1-888-MORONI.
Gerrit We'll put your call on air right now.
Richard You got to name the phrase that pays.
Gerrit And on with the countdown.
Richard So, Dear King Richard, I named the email with the Above Treaty to see if the good doctor is familiar with it and can tell the good listeners which conflict it ended.
Gerrit Now I have to, I need Richard to be my witness here. Yeah.
Richard Now we learned in the previous episode that witnesses don't matter. In fact, witnesses prove the opposite of the thing.
Gerrit Yeah, that if there are witnesses, that proves everything's a lie and that the person is just unsure of themselves.
Richard I will say, one of the things that I'm really trying to get off the ground is Fawn Brody Roulette, where we just go to a random page of her book and read that page and laugh at how ridiculous that page is.
Gerrit Yeah, we just, we did this a couple of times and both times we did it, it worked out that way.
Richard It was absolutely, it's more absurd than the previous.
Gerrit So, I mean, the ridiculous stuff is completely hyperbolic statements for which there's no historical source backing it up. And it's especially this and the things that are the most pejorative, things that make someone's actions nefarious, right? So for instance, we were reading one where she's talking about Sydney Rigdon and wanting Sydney Rigdon to sound like he was, you know, basically a pit bull trying to rip someone's leg off. She characterized how his eyes were blazing, even though no source says that. But by saying that, suddenly he becomes a sweaty tooth madman.
Richard And then goes on to quote also things where there's absolutely no corroboration.
Gerrit Where, yeah. Well, here's a really terrible source, but it says what I want it to say, amazing.
Richard Yes. One of the things hopefully that the listeners realize is that the things that happen from these arguments, and I'm going to get in here into this email a little bit as Gerrit is stalling to not look up. He isn't looking it up.
Gerrit I'm not looking it up. Now that's why I need my witness that I'm not looking up this treaty.
Richard Yes. But that we mock these things and the fact that they take people away from the church, that's certainly not funny. That's actually incredibly tragic. But the reason that we do it as a way to mock these things and to make fun of these things to show the listeners how actually ridiculous these things are so that hopefully when you hear something that you at least give it at least a three count and a pause.
Gerrit If you've been with us for a while, you listen to the one that we did on the late war. And I think that was the one that was the most...
Richard You got very upset.
Gerrit I feel like you were upset too.
Richard It was, it's ridiculous.
Gerrit I feel like we were angry together. I mean, I realize there are questions from church history that are legitimately troubling to people. I also realized that a lot of the times when people have questions, those questions are placed there by someone else who has said, Hey, bet you didn't know about X. You should have a problem with it. And, and a very good hearted person ends up wondering, wow, I mean, is it real? Is that, did that really happen? I mean, he said that it happened. And that can cause, that can cause doubt. So look, we all have questions. There are all kinds of questions that I can't answer that. What do you think we get? Like 400 emails a week. We, we answered one of them. We're like, there's like one of these I could answer. What about the others? I don't even know. Just tell them it's season 38. I don't have an answer for that.
Richard You know, I mean, except for this treaty, he will get to it.
Gerrit Right. Yeah. We better pause and go back to that. Let's go to the email and then I'll, I'll finish my. Okay.
Richard Well, well, so what is the treaty?
Gerrit Uh, is the treaty that ends the first... I know there was a TikTok craze about, uh...
Richard About this treaty?
Gerrit Well, about the Roman Empire and how often do men think of the Roman Empire.
Richard Middle-aged men. Yeah. Right.
Gerrit The reality is when you're me, it's always... Like, I, I don't know that there's been a day of my life. I haven't thought of the Roman Empire. I mean, I, I don't know how to, I don't, I don't know how to just say that without sounding like... Oh no.
Richard You sound exactly like what that is.
Gerrit I don't know a day of my life that I haven't thought about the Roman Empire. Oh my gosh. I mean, ever since I've learned... Look, when I was 13 years old, 13, my brother and I purchased a gigantic Avalon Hill game that was bigger than a queen size bed. I know that it was bigger than a queen size bed because we couldn't put it on a bed in order to play it and there wasn't a table wide enough. We had to get a piece of plywood to put the game on so that we could then put it on the bed so that it wouldn't be stepped on and destroyed by everyone walking into the room. It was called Siege of Jerusalem. Nice.
Richard Really nice.
Gerrit Bad timing? It was a military history game that reenacted Titus's siege of Jerusalem.
Richard Interesting. What's your youngest son's name? How about that?
Gerrit My son, Titus.
Richard Interesting.
Gerrit Named for the book in the New Testament.
Richard Sure.
Gerrit Not a Jerusalem killer, murderer.
Richard Sure.
Gerrit But yeah, so this game, I mean, and so it's made of hexes. Anyone who's familiar with the old style war games, this Avalon Hill game, I mean, it's gigantic and it has hundreds of pieces representing the various Roman legions. So each little piece is like a part of this Roman legion, you know, and has a certain attack power and a certain defense power. And you had the zealots that were the main body of the Jews defending Jerusalem. And the game, of course, takes months to play and it's super complicated. That's when I was 13. My brother and I, Dallin and I, would play games like this where, you know, it's the Romans versus the Jews with the Jewish rebellion trying to capture Jerusalem. And if you took too long to capture Jerusalem, the Parthian Empire would intervene on the side of the Jews against the Romans. And just, I mean, it sounds like a lot of fun. But the point of that, the point of that is, yeah, I know the treaty because the treaty is a Roman Empire.
Gerrit So, Gaius Lutatius is the Roman general. I mean, frankly, he's famous for being an admiral because he wins the, like the most decisive battle of the first Punic War. The Roman word for Phoenician is, is, is, is Punis. So it's Punic is how you get that, that terminology. So it's the war of the Romans against the Carthaginians. So you've probably heard of Carthage. You certainly have if you're a Latter-day Saint, but you've probably heard of the Empire of Carthage, which was the major Mediterranean Empire that fought multiple wars with the Republic of Rome, as the Republic of Rome was on the ascendancy. And they bitterly battled over, especially Sicily in the first, the first Punic War, because Rome, of course, was, you know, conquering the rest of the boot of Italy, and Carthage owned all of North Africa, and Sicily's kind of like right in between.
Gerrit And the dad of, of the great Carthaginian general, Hannibal, you've probably heard of Hannibal, right? He's the one who goes over the Alps with the elephants and whatnot. His dad has an even cooler name than Hannibal. I mean, his dad's name is Hamilcar Barca.
Richard That's a pretty cool name.
Gerrit You know what I mean? You're bringing it with that name. Titus should have been named Hamilcar Barca. I should go back and edit that, but Richard keeps saying that whenever I make a mistake, we don't edit it out. Or we do edit it out.
Richard We do edit it out.
Gerrit But when Richard makes a mistake, We leave it in. We put it on a loop.
Richard Yeah, we do.
Gerrit So it's just like Richard, it's like he's one of those old style vines.
Richard He does have a cooler name, but he didn't sack Jerusalem, so we don't want to name our kids after him.
Gerrit That's not... I named him for the New Testament. Anyway, so Gaius Lutatius, he wins this huge naval victory, and it essentially isolates the Hamilcar Barca's forces in Sicily and forces the Carthaginians to sue for peace. And it's a super heavy handed piece, and really kind of sows the seeds of the next war, which is the Second Punic War, where you will have Hannibal versus the legions of Rome. So yes, that treaty did catch my eye. I have Richard's witness. I'm not reading anything here.
Richard All we have is just a bunch of anti-Mormon stuff.
Gerrit Yeah, we do have a bunch of anti-Mormon stuff on the screen. I'm pretty sure Fawn Brody can't help us with this though. You know what though? She would probably say she could.
Richard Yeah, yeah, she'd make something up about it. Yeah, so that's impressive actually, quite.
Gerrit Well, what is the rest of the email that we're saying?
Richard Let's see. Good listeners, which conflict have ended. There you go. Anyways, I first must apologize for my attempts in previous emails in trying to oust you, me, Richard, from your position as co-host through, though the mailbag portion can be a bit rough at times as I've already stumbled several times in reading this email. That was his plan.
Gerrit That's why he made it a very difficult treaty.
Richard It's true. It's the most cringey part for my wife, for sure, who knows that I am a poor reader and that I do this every time.
Gerrit And an even worse husband.
Richard I don't know. I'm a pretty poor reader.
Gerrit It depends on how bad of a husband you are.
Richard I understand that I would do no better. I too also like to try to beat traffic. So now this is a man after my own heart. I too like to beat traffic. When I attend a BYU game, usually I don't stay much past the beginning of the fourth quarter. My kids wonder, why do we get to the stadium so early, almost two hours before kickoff, only to leave while there is still nearly a full quarter left. I just tell them, when you get older, you will understand. Well, Derek, it's a great point. And by the way, the big Baylor overtime victory that we had against Baylor last year, I believe it was.
Gerrit I like how we have to relive our victories from previous seasons.
Richard Yes, well, I mean, it was a big, I think they were a top 10 team at the time. It was a big win. I went to that game and was pulling into my driveway in Layton, Utah, as they were winning the game in overtime.
Gerrit You did not stay for the game.
Richard But I beat traffic.
Gerrit I disagree with Richard on this.
Richard I wanted to thank you two for all you do with this podcast. The information that is given to us listeners recently, I have learned that members of my family, my extended family, who have served missions and made covenants have left the church. Turns out they had come across some videos or random Instagram posts from some antis and without really investigating the issue for themselves and trying to find real sources, they allowed these things to eat away at their testimonies till they were gone. Yesterday, Thanksgiving, I was talking to my brother about some of his questions and about church and its history. In my response to him, I referred to him this podcast and told him to listen to it. People with all sort of faith-based crises would do well tuning in to this material. I also told him that the humor in the podcast alone is enough to keep listening. I hope he listens.
Gerrit But hopefully not to this episode. It'll be like, this wasn't funny at all.
Richard It's not good at all. Gerrit spent 15 minutes on the...
Gerrit Okay, so maybe I shouldn't have described the war game. What do you want from me? Do you want real me, visceral me?
Richard Listen, because I know that he can receive some answers that he is searching for, especially regarding the history of our church. I wish that I had been able to refer the podcast to those who had left the church before they had made that decision. But I mentioned the podcast any chance I get, even when I'm teaching during elders quorum, though I don't know if I have been successful in driving your numbers up at all.
Gerrit A quick check at our numbers says, no. I mean, honestly, we actually have... We actually do have lots of people who listen. We joke around a lot because that's just what we do.
Richard Self-deprecating humor, but that is very nice of you to say. I will say, in my ward... So in Gerrit's ward, people know that Gerrit is very smart and that Gerrit works for the church and that Gerrit knows everything about Joseph Smith and was the gospel talker and teacher in his ward for a good number of years. And so many people from his ward listen to the podcast and talk about it, and it's great, and he gets lots of comments. And no one in my ward knows anything about anything. That is very, very funny.
Gerrit No one listens to the podcast at all?
Richard Well, no one listens to the podcast, certainly, but no one assumes that I would have anything to do with it because it's like, I know you.
Gerrit I know Richard. Richard was a friend of mine.
Richard And Richard is no Gerrit Dirkmaat.
Gerrit He is not doing a podcast.
Richard I'm thankful for this podcast and what you two are doing. I am looking forward to the day that the introduction names two doctors. Boy, you and me both, by the way. I hope to have an opportunity to go on one of the tours at some point. What a great opportunity to mention. We've got a tour. We do have a tour. Palmyra and Kirtland. We still have some availability left. And next year for the Nauvoo Missouri one, that one sold out very quickly. Because I can only imagine how ridiculous it might get at times while enjoying both church and American history. Thanks again, and best wishes to you both.
Gerrit That's a very kind...
Richard It's a very good... So we interrupted a really great point that you were making as it relates to kind of the ridiculous, the way that we treat these things. But these things are very serious as they pull people away, as Derek describes.
Gerrit I hope no one takes our sometimes flippancy and joking around as we don't see these things as serious. I mean, of course they are. That's part of the reason why the podcast exists. It exists to try to help build faith and testimony in the restored gospel of Jesus Christ and to try to provide some answers to some of the historical questions that are natural or that people are confronted with because of things like some of the bad information our sister missionaries got in the last couple episodes. There's no way to solve all of the problems. In my elders quorum, speaking of elders quorum, I usually don't talk a whole lot in church. I feel very uncomfortable in the sense that I don't want people to think that I'm just, you know, let me tell you how it is. So I usually don't say anything.
Gerrit And occasionally people will call me. My ward has expanded like crazy. Like my ward's probably twice the size it was from a year ago. That's how quickly people are moving in. It's so full. Every Sunday you go to my ward, it looks like someone just announced that Elder Rasband is visiting. Like there are no seats. People are standing in the hallway. All the chairs are filled in the chapel. It's just every week. And so I'm sure they're going to split it soon. But because of that, I don't really know very many people now anymore because it's almost a majority of people in the elders quorum are brand new people that I haven't met. Angie's had some health problems, so it's not like I've been able to be my normal gregarious friendly self. And so our teacher last Sunday was actually my neighbor was teaching. And he was using as his text Elder Ballard's, his last conference address, and that address became all the more poignant.
Gerrit I think a lot of us said, Richard and I even said to each other after Elder Ballard's address, we said, boy, that sure sounded like he was saying goodbye, didn't it? And point of fact, he did end up saying goodbye. And that testimony is so sweet and powerful and something that was born over a lifetime. I don't want anyone to think that I have some kind of special association with the apostles. I don't.
Richard I can verify.
Gerrit Yeah, I would guess that none of them, I mean, if there was a robbery and there was a lineup, they wouldn't be able to pick me out of it. I, of course, have interacted with them at times with work on the Joseph Smith Papers and some other things that I've done. But, you know, I'm not going to sit here and tell you, well, I knew everyone personally. I will say, though, I did post on my Facebook after he passed away that it was a pretty poignant thing for us because... So I work with the, what used to be called the Mormon Historic Sites Foundation. It's now called the Ensign Peak Foundation. A little bit of a name change a few years ago.
Richard Interesting. I wonder why.
Gerrit It was just, you know, random.
Richard Random.
Gerrit Yeah, I've been that name for a long time. And then all of a sudden we're like, you know what, let's change it to something else. As part of that, I'm the editor of a journal that's published about Latter-day Saint history. It was called Mormon Historical Studies. Now, at the exact same time, its name got changed to Latter-day Saint Historical Studies. It's an interesting coincidence. And this group works with trying to restore historic places in the church, trying to acquire those things, trying to bring knowledge to them, trying to help the church and the church's effort to acquire those things. And so it's been a great organization, the Ensign Peak Foundation. And I heartily suggest go to their website, Ensign Peak Foundation. Subscribe to the journal. That would be awesome if we had some of our listeners that started subscribing to Latter-day Saint Historical Studies.
Gerrit But that experience with that organization has placed me in position to be in some places that I otherwise wouldn't be. And one of them was we went out a year and a half ago to Massachusetts for the dedication of the Smith family monument that was built in Topsfield, Massachusetts to honor that this was the site that essentially four generations and then a fifth generation of Smiths were at least born and lived before Father Smith is not going to be there. But Joseph Smith's grandfather, great grandfather, on down the line all the way back to the original indentured servant that comes across in 1670. And President Ballard wanted to be the one to perform that dedication because he was a direct descendant of Hyrum Smith.
Gerrit And so we made all the plans to go out there and it was right at the same time that we had learned that my wife had cancer. And when Elder Ballard learned about that, President Ballard, when he learned about that, he offered to give my wife a blessing. And it was an incredibly precious and powerful thing there after the dedication services. And of course it was hot and people were out in the sun. And there was a big thing that had happened the night before. And now this is the day after. And you have to believe with his schedule, he's incredibly exhausted. And yet he took time away from the festivities to go to this little, basically it was like a little kitchen room next to the place where we were having this little luncheon afterwards.
Gerrit And it was just him and me and my wife. And he gave her a very special blessing. And that was a powerful experience. And one that I was grateful to have. I'd always respected President Ballard. He was one of the champions of the Joseph Smith Papers, one of the champions of the Gospel Topics Essays and helping people understand their history so that they could be inoculated against these nefarious actors that are trying to hurt our testimonies. But the spirit as he gave that testimony was incredibly powerful. And it's something that I won't forget, something I'm forever grateful for. And I mentioned on Facebook that what happened after that was almost just as powerful and as touching. I mean, he was exhausted.
Gerrit You could tell that this multi-day thing was just, it's a lot for someone in their 90s to just, oh, I'll work a 15-hour day. And so I hear him have a conversation with his private secretary who tells him, basically, because he steps out while Angie and I are a puddle basically in the middle of the room. And he's having this conversation with his secretary about what's on the day, the rest of the day for the agenda. And his secretary tries to convince him, says, well, there is this youth meeting we could get to if we leave now. But it's been a long day. Maybe there's this Missionary Zone Conference too. There are some things, some possible things. But it's been really long. You could probably just take a rest. And President Ballard asked him, so what meetings could we get to if we just go? And he told him again. And he said, well, let's go to the meetings and we'll just rest some other time.
Gerrit That's what he said. But he didn't know that I could hear that. They were just out in the hall. And it was just a really powerful example to me of what servants of God these apostles, these modern day apostles of God are. And I'm incredibly grateful that the acting president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles considered me and my family and my little situation to be important enough to give us that blessing. We got to meet his daughter on that trip and her husband and they were just phenomenal people. I mean, and as soon as I had heard that he passed, we were really sad for that because we knew how beloved he was in his family.
Richard So a little bit of a tangent because you were talking about, you got irritated in your elders quorum because you usually never talk.
Gerrit Yeah, and then I don't know what happened.
Richard No, so what happened is that the topic, the subject for that lesson was his talk about Joseph Smith.
Gerrit Yeah, and so then I ended up, I digressed greatly. I'm sure someone will email the podcast and say, please stop going on...
Richard Well, no, so that's a beautiful story, but the larger point you were making is that you got so frustrated with the...
Gerrit Well, so because of the topic and because I had this personal experience with President Ballard and because of the topic of Joseph Smith, I don't usually talk. But my neighbor, who has had conversations with me in the past, he also played in a dodgeball tournament with me in Spanish Fork City a few weeks ago. So he's quite multifaceted. He brought up the topic of people having questions about Joseph Smith and doubting whether or not he was a prophet. And one of my elders quorum presidency members, a counselor in the presidency, explained that he felt like more and more and more people were trying to find ways to denigrate the prophet, Joseph Smith, and to say that he wasn't really a prophet, or that, well, he was right about some things, but he was wrong about some others.
Gerrit And he expressed, and he said, I don't know if that makes sense, or if anyone wants to help clarify that. And he made perfect sense to me. And at that point, I guess I just, I don't know, I ended up talking because Brady had called on me once before, and so then I... And I just expressed something that I think is important for everyone to understand. At least it's important for me, and it's why I am passionate about it. Every single thing that we believe, we believe because Joseph Smith was a prophet. And that's full stop, end of story, that's the end discussion of it. There are well over, there are billions, well over a billion Christians in this world who all believe that Jesus is the Christ. They all have their days begin and end believing and worshiping that Jesus is their Savior.
Gerrit And that is a wonderful, great and glorious thing. There's nothing wrong with that at all. But why Joseph Smith matters is because everything that we believe about Jesus is because we believe that that same Jesus spoke to Joseph Smith. That he talked to Joseph Smith, that he gave Joseph Smith the power to translate the Book of Mormon, that he gave Joseph Smith the ability to receive these revelations that are so incredibly, incredibly powerful, transformative of all Christian thought, 2,000 years of Christian thought, and Joseph Smith the farm boy is receiving revelation that opens up the clouds of darkness, of apostasy, and helps us understand who we are, why we're here, that we had a pre-mortal life, that we are going to have a glorious post-mortal life, that the gospel in fact isn't just reserved for the few and the special, but that every single person on this earth is going to have an opportunity to be exalted and that even those that don't are going to have an opportunity to be exalted, and that even those that don't Some names that don't are going to a place of heaven.
Gerrit What we believe about God, we believe it because of Joseph Smith. And when people want to denigrate that, when they want to say, well, yeah, but what about this about Joseph? What are we trying to say? Anyone who wants to tell you that, well, they've just studied a lot, and they're just not sure Joseph Smith's a prophet. As I said in my elders quorum, what did they study? I have met with literally hundreds of people who are struggling in their faith to talk to them about church history issues. Some of them incredibly sincere, some of them not sincere at all. I've literally met with people who are like, I'm going to go meet with that church history guy to prove how much more I know about things than he does, which is really weird, honestly. Just take your win and go. And I said, I've met with literally hundreds of people.
Gerrit Do you know how many of them, how many of these people who are kind of caustically saying, well, I've done a lot of studying. I've studied a lot on this. Do you know how many of them have read a single volume of the 20 volumes of the Joseph Smith Papers?
Richard I would guess zero.
Gerrit Not one of them, not one of them. Oh sure, they might have read a bit or a piece of it. We live in a time, in a day and age, in which the church has provided enormous resources for us. The church has spent millions, tens of millions of dollars trying to make Joseph Smith's life as transparent as possible, publishing every single document that Joseph ever had, ever produced, every sermon he ever gave, and then providing historical context and annotation. Tens of millions. All of it's online. All of it's there for us. And we have people who will say, well, I've studied a lot about Joseph Smith, and they haven't read one of the 20 volumes. The reality is they haven't even read part of one of the 20 volumes.
Gerrit And the reason why that matters is if you really study, if you really dig in, if you really want to know, some of these questions, they fade a little bit. For instance, if you really think that Joseph Smith just copied some parts of the Book of Mormon from Solomon Spaulding's manuscript or from the late war, you really think that maybe he just, you know what? He probably just produced it on his own. I mean, yeah, I mean, there's no way the Book of Mormon is historical, so I think Joseph Smith just like wrote it. Go read anything else Joseph Smith ever wrote. Go read a letter that he writes in 1830 to his brother Hiram, in which he spells his brother's name wrong. But then tell me all about how he wrote Alma chapter 5. Right?
Gerrit Go read another letter where he's writing to the church in 1833, and he spells the word church wrong. He's literally founded a church. He's founded a church and can't spell the word church. And then go read Doctrine and Covenants, section 93. And then try to invent a way that it came from somewhere other than God. And why we would want to invent that way when the beautiful truths that are shed by the Prophet Joseph Smith in those revelations in the Book of Mormon. We, when, look, I don't expect everyone to believe. But there is a vast great difference between saying, I don't believe this and I believe X instead. And making an argument that there's some kind of logical, historical proof that Joseph Smith is not a prophet.
Gerrit No, you may not believe. That's fine. You don't have to believe. Most people won't believe. Most people didn't believe Jesus either. Most people won't believe. That's okay. But once you begin to make the argument that you have historical proof that Joseph isn't a prophet, well then, we get to play by historical rules. And you don't just get to make things up or have bad arguments that aren't sourced. You don't get to say you've studied a lot and by that you mean I watched four TikToks and six reels on Facebook. I didn't just listen to whoever had what I wanted to hear. I actually studied it. And scholars who do actual study, they don't just read a quote. They read everything surrounding that day, that event, that month, so that when they do get to the quote, it actually makes sense to them.
Gerrit Of course, I didn't say people have to do that. My point was if you decide that some of these arguments against the prophet being the prophet are so persuasive, then as we've said before on this podcast, you need to recognize the things that you are going to give up. That you logically have to give up. That if Joseph Smith stops being a prophet, you no longer have a father, son and Holy Ghost that are separate independent beings. That comes because of the prophet Joseph Smith. You no longer have a pre-mortal life. You no longer have the ability, regardless of where you are born and who your parents are and what your education is, you no longer have an equal chance at eternity and salvation. If Joseph Smith is not a prophet, you don't even have an answer for why God created this world.
Gerrit I get it. There are lots of people who will say things like, oh, yep, no, he did it for God, did it for his glory. The first decision God made was that he would glorify himself. And he did it by building this world. And you know what? They're half right. But this is my work and my glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. What the Christian world misses because they miss Joseph Smith is that yeah, God did create the world for his glory. But his glory is in exalting all of his children. That's his glory. All of that we lose if Joseph's not a prophet. We don't have to have arguments about who's sealed to who. And I just don't know how I feel about the fact that my grandmother sealed the three different people because the moment, the moment Joseph stops being a prophet, there's no ceilings. There's no eternal families. There's no marriage in heaven.
Gerrit The only reason we believe that is because Joseph Smith received a revelation on it. And of course, subsequent prophets have received revelation to bolster it. This is the reason why I don't comment in church. And I feel passionate about a few things. My elders quorum president called and left a voice message for me afterwards. He was like, hey. He was very, very kind. At any rate, that wasn't what we were expecting to talk about. But the email made me think about that. And I would just plead with everybody listening. I understand what it is like to have your legs knocked out from under you when it comes to doctrine and understanding and to question and to wonder. And the adversary whispers to you and says, well, if you don't know the answer to X, then nothing else is true.
Gerrit That's not true. Christianity is and always has been an act of faith. And no matter how much you know, you have to choose to believe. And so just take the difficult questions that you have and take a step back for a moment and list off all the glorious truths you know because Joseph's a prophet. And then ask yourself, are you willing to give all of that away because I'm not sure I understand how the Book of Mormon was translated. I'm going to give all of that away because some apostate claimed that Joseph Smith said this. I don't have any proof that he said it. I don't know that he said it, but it sure would make me upset if Joseph did say that. Probably make us a lot more upset to not know that we couldn't have eternal marriages or that our Father in heaven created a plan whereby every single one of his children could be saved from hellfire.
Gerrit I'm not giving that up. I'm not giving it up because of the questions I can't answer. Because if I gave it up, the questions I would then have dwarf how heavy were the plates when Joseph ran with them. Because I wouldn't know anything about God. And I wouldn't know anything about myself. And there would be no purpose to this life. So that's what I would say in response to the email.
Richard Yeah, I think that answers the question.
Gerrit I apologize to everyone listening.
Richard No, so this is actually great. Ain't no way we're getting to Moroni. That will be addendum 2. Addendum, addendum. Yeah, but I will say though, this has happened in my family, this has happened in your family, this has happened with my friends, this has happened with your friends. And it always has been something that has been just very difficult to do. And to the point you make, and have made, while we make light of certain arguments, that's just a technique to just, to point to the ridiculousness of what is happening here. But it is incredibly serious what goes on and incredibly tragic for Derek's friends and family and the things that he's discussing here. But I think that it's a good reminder all of the things that we know, all of the things that we love. And I think that sometimes people are perhaps ignorant to, I know, speaking of myself, I was incredibly ignorant to thinking that other people just, well of course they believe these similar things about God and Jesus and all these other things.
Richard And that if I can just go to another church and still have this a la carte Mormonism of the things that I like while then going to a place where I don't have to deal with a difficult topic in history.
Gerrit Yeah, and I, yeah, we don't want to come across like people with questions are somehow, literally everyone has questions. Anyone who tells you that they've never had any question about the church, it's doctrine and history is either someone who's never thought at all or they're just not being honest.
Richard Well, I mean, I mean, when you talk about the gut punch, sometimes when you see something that you've never seen before or hear something you've never heard before, and you're like, wow, if that's, wow, that's something, I've had that happen to me several times. I think most people have something like that happen. You can't just, you're born and then you know everything that's ever happened.
Gerrit Right. Well, I mean, except some antis seem to, yeah. I was just born and I just knew this. I mean, yeah, so it's natural and it's natural to have questions, but I mean, that's why Elder Uchtdorf's talk was just so beautiful, to doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith. And the reason why that makes sense is what do you want? Do you want to have faith? If you want to have faith, then you have to seek out things that build faith. You know, possibly podcasts that aren't this one. I mean, it's a crazy thing to believe that you could not try to seek out faith, and yet at the same time, it would just grow, you know, spontaneously. If you surround yourself with negative attacks on the church, they will start to sound more and more logical.
Gerrit If you surround yourself with anti-Mormon subreddits that criticize and question every single aspect of church history in the most disdainful manner, well, guess what? You're going to start to feel cynical towards things from church history. You should never try to get answers about faith from people who don't have any. How in the world could they give you answers about having faith? Now, if someone says, well, yeah, but like, I also don't want to be deceived. I mean, what if none of this is true? Okay, well, how are you going to definitively prove that it's not true? What's your plan on that? How will you definitively prove that it's false? Just like I can't definitively prove to you through logic that the church is true and that Joseph Smith's a prophet, how could you definitively prove to me that he wasn't a prophet aside from the planks that he laid on the bottom of the pond?
Gerrit Other than that, what are the ways that you could prove it? And the reality is that religious truth claims are things that people have to accept or reject on an individual basis. I always go back to Pascal's Wager, right? Let's say right now you're struggling with church and church history aspects. Maybe you're struggling with something local in your ward. Maybe your elders quorum president is a nice guy, but he let some clown church history person rant for five minutes and you don't ever want to go back. Maybe you've had a disagreement with someone in the ward. Or maybe it's a deeper level. Maybe you didn't know that Joseph Smith had ever practiced polygamy. And when you found out, you kind of felt betrayed because you didn't know. Maybe you didn't know that early members of the church drank and smoked, even after the Word of Wisdom.
Gerrit And that was kind of a gut punch. Whatever it is that you're struggling with, that you're dealing with, the reality is the only way you're going to come to a definitive answer will be after this life or from the Holy Spirit. Those are the two ways to know something, right? You either can die and then you'll find out real quick whether or not there's an afterlife, or the Holy Spirit can testify it to you. Now, Pascal's wager was that if you're trying to decide whether or not there's a God, well then you should always bet or wager, and we love wagering on the show. You should always wager.
Richard Well, we like to refer everyone. President Hinckley's 2005 conference address on Gatling.
Gerrit We like to have whatever life.
Richard Entertainment purposes only, mostly to irritate my wife.
Gerrit Yeah, and she's mad right now.
Richard And to make Ken go lightly laugh.
Gerrit He deserves it. Anyway, the wager is you always bet on the existence of God. Well, look, God either exists or he doesn't. If God exists and you live your life like God exists, well, then, praise be, you're going to heaven, right? And you can apply that to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Let's say you have some doubts. Let's say you live your life like the Church is true, and you try to put forth faith, and you serve your fellow man, and you raise your family with the Gospel teachings, but there's always this little doubt in the back of your mind, it just doesn't make sense, the Book of Abraham to me or something like that. Well, you live your whole life believing it, following it, teaching it, testifying of it. When you die, if those things are all true, then you'll be grateful that that's how you lived your life.
Gerrit If they aren't true, if there is no God, well, then you won't exist. So you actually won't have the ability to regret, not only believing, you won't have the ability to regret anything. If there's no God, when you die and the lights go out, you won't be able to say, oh, I wish I had attended a four-square gospel church. I mean, that's you as you're falling to death. It's you falling into the coffin, essentially. And every major study, every single study that is done on religion and faith demonstrates that people who have ardent religious faith, of any kind, not ours, any kind, are happier, have less psychological problems, have longer lifespans.
Gerrit Just you can go down the roll of any of those things. Religion is a positive influence in individuals' lives. So even the argument of, well, yeah, but I mean, what if I'm believing all this stuff and it's not true? Well, what would the end result of that be? That your kids would be, they would take that blessing that religion gives people, even if there was no God. So yeah, I mean, look, everybody is going to have questions they can't answer. I have questions I cannot answer. You think it's frustrating for you? Imagine me, it's literally my job, and I can't answer them. That's why the only true way to know is through the Holy Spirit. That's the only way repeatedly, continually to have the Holy Spirit testify to you, this is true.
Gerrit And you are not going to get that watching an anti-Mormon TikTok. Frankly, you're going to be presented with a lot of really bad information, sourced really poorly by someone who's very vindictively attacking someone else's belief. There's a word for that. It's called bigotry. We don't do that. We talk about what other people believe. But if you're dedicating a TikTok to trying to mock someone's religious beliefs, frankly, that's kind of sick. It's weird. It's not a healthy thing. Anyway, I don't have the best way of articulating things, especially if I get my dander up. And for me, President Ballard's conference talk was personal, and it was touching, and it was powerful, and it was true.
Gerrit And it was a lifetime of lived experience living the gospel, desperately trying to serve every single person around him. The gospel of Jesus Christ does not make people bad people. It makes them good people. It makes them care about something, anything other than themselves. So, if you're not going to be a Latter-day Saint, at least be a Christian. If you're not going to be a Christian, at least believe in God. Because the belief in God is what helps us treat each other with dignity and respect and love. I'm grateful for Joseph Smith because he's the reason why I believe in Jesus. I've said it before on the podcast.
Gerrit I have a testimony that Jesus was resurrected because I know Joseph Smith saw and talked to Jesus. And I don't know that lightly. I know it because I've spent all of this time studying and reading and doing all those different things. But even beyond that, I know it because the Holy Spirit continually testifies to me of that. So this is a great gospel. The problems that we have, the questions that are unanswered, will all eventually be answered. And every tear will eventually be wiped away. Every injustice will be made right by the Savior. At some point after this life, everyone is going to be happy. And the horrors of this mortal existence are going to fade away into the ether as we spend our time in the presence of our Lord and Savior and of our Father in heaven.
Gerrit So I hope you can take your doubts in perspective. Don't ever let them conquer the truths that you do have, because those truths are beautiful and they are sweet. And you know, if you have family members who leave the church, give them time. At some point, they may come feeling after some of those answers again. I've seen multiple times in my life, people who are adamant they would never step foot in a church again, re-baptized and fully active members of the church. So, it's painful, it's difficult. I feel for you, Derek. I mean, that's, it's hard. And at the same time, we know what this next life is going to be like. And it is going to be great and it is going to be glorious, even for those who don't decide to come back in this life. That's how great Jesus is. Jesus is so great.
Gerrit Our Father is so great that everyone's going to have some level of happiness. And that, that's a reason to believe that Joseph Smith had that vision. Just the desperation that everyone can be happy should drive us to want to believe. So next time when we get on the podcast, we'll try to answer maybe, I don't know, any other question. Richard will be barred from bringing up things that are triggers for me. And I will stop going to elders quorum. I think what we've learned is there's several things here. There's a couple of takeaways. But I really do appreciate everyone's support. It sounds weird to say it because I'm talking on the other end of a computer and a microphone. But I actually feel other people's love and testimonies when we do this. And it honestly makes all the difference in the world. So thank you so much. Thank you for staying the course.
Gerrit Thank you for persevering even when things are horrible. And look forward to the hope of a brighter day. And we will try to do a better job next week.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.

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You know what? Let's just start calling this the Moroni podcast.

GerritBanter

Now we learned in the previous episode that witnesses don't matter. In fact, witnesses prove the opposite of the thing.

RichardBanter

I don't know a day of my life that I haven't thought about the Roman Empire.

GerritBanter

You did not stay for the game.

GerritBanter

Every single thing that we believe, we believe because Joseph Smith was a prophet.

GerritInsight

He's literally founded a church. He's founded a church and can't spell the word church.

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You should never try to get answers about faith from people who don't have any.

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The gospel of Jesus Christ does not make people bad people. It makes them good people.

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I have a testimony that Jesus was resurrected because I know Joseph Smith saw and talked to Jesus.

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More from this episode

Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.

Claim check

What critics say, and what the episode found
People who leave over Joseph Smith have usually studied his life deeply.
You can drop Joseph Smith and keep the rest of what you believe about God.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.

Take it to class

Ready to copy into a lesson or a text

Every distinctive thing Latter-day Saints believe about God, Jesus, families and the afterlife comes because Joseph Smith was a prophet.

Before giving up your faith over a question, list the truths you'd be giving up with it, and ask whether the question outweighs them.

Seek faith from people who have it; Elder Uchtdorf's counsel is to doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith.

Some questions will only be answered by the Holy Spirit or after this life, and loved ones who leave may come back; give them time.

Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.

Banter bin

The running jokes, for people who skip ahead
The Moroni seriesMoroni Addendum Part One, with "addenda" promised and "the Moroni podcast" proposed, but Moroni never comes up; it moves to Addendum 2 (1:08, 1:20, 1:40, 42:35).
Call us live1-888-MORONI, the phrase that pays, and on with the countdown (2:20, 2:25).
Fawn Brodie RouletteRead a random page and laugh at how unsupported it is (2:59, 3:24).
The Roman Empire, every dayA queen-size Siege of Jerusalem board game, and Titus is named for the New Testament book (7:04, 8:20).
Hamilcar BarcaHannibal's dad has an even cooler name; Titus should have been Hamilcar Barca (10:45, 11:12).
We edit Gerrit, not RichardRichard's mistakes go on a loop, like an old Vine (11:12, 11:31).
Beat the trafficDerek leaves BYU games before the fourth quarter; Richard was pulling into his Layton driveway when BYU beat Baylor in overtime (13:22, 14:07).
Nobody in Richard's ward knowsGerrit's ward listens; Richard's ward assumes he couldn't have anything to do with it (16:14, 16:54).
The name change was randomMormon Historic Sites Foundation becomes Ensign Peak Foundation, by coincidence (21:38, 21:41).
For entertainment purposes onlyPresident Hinckley's 2005 talk, mostly to irritate Richard's wife (48:50, 48:56).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

Your question could be next week’s episode
Questions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
General ConferenceGeneral Conference talks that cite a scripture read in this episode.

In General Conference

Talks from the latest General Conference that cite a scripture this episode reads or names on air
October 2026 General Conference · cites D&C 93I Am a Child of GodElder Hutch U. FaleElder Fale teaches that every person is a beloved child of heavenly parents, illustrating God's unearned love by showing his children their baby pictures: they did nothing to earn their parents' love and can do nothing to lose it.October 2026 General Conference · cites Alma 5Take Upon Us His NameElder James G. O. FantoneElder Fantone recalls signing his own name on his daughter's school form, then fixing it by simply adding her first name, and contrasts that quick fix with what it means to take upon us the name of Christ.October 2026 General Conference · cites Alma 5The Gospel of Jesus Christ Is for AllPresident Dallin H. OaksPresident Oaks testifies that this is Christ's Church and that the way through every struggle, including doubt, is to draw closer to Jesus Christ through daily prayer and scripture study, with patience for others and for ourselves.

Summaries, themes and lessons for every talk are on What Did They Say?

Go deeperWhere to read more.

Go deeper

Deep dives the episode points toward
Read one full volume of the Joseph Smith Papers, or start with Joseph's own letters, then read D&C 93 (33:02, 35:27).
President Ballard's final conference address on Joseph Smith and the Smith family monument in Topsfield, Massachusetts (20:07, 22:42).
Elder Uchtdorf's "doubt your doubts" talk and Pascal's Wager (44:45, 46:54).
The First Punic War, Hamilcar Barca, and the treaty that set up Hannibal's war (9:35).
SOT Litner · S3E50.