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S3E52 · Moroni Addendum
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Standard of Truth · Season 3 · Episode 52 · 1:22:21

Moroni Addendum

The story that Moroni dedicated the Manti Temple site traces to Warren Snow's account that Brigham Young showed him the very spot, yet it's missing from every talk at the temple's dedication.

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The question ·

Did Moroni really dedicate the Manti Temple site, and is he the guardian angel of the United States?

Gerrit

The season ends after Christmas with more missionary requests, and Jeff, who joined the church in Wisconsin, sends Gerrit into a mission story about a family who walked into sacrament meeting during Praise to the Man and If You Could Hie to Kolob. Then comes the long-promised Moroni addendum, where Gerrit traces the Manti Temple story to an 1888 Millennial Star letter to George Teasdale and Warren Snow's account that Brigham Young showed him where Moroni dedicated the site. It isn't in any dedication talk or Brigham's writings, but that doesn't prove it false. Gerrit then reads Orson Hyde's 1854 Fourth of July sermon calling Moroni the angel who guided Washington and Columbus, and shows it goes on to say the nation lost that protection by persecuting the Saints. Gerrit closes season three with his testimony.

Who comes upMoroniBrigham YoungWarren SnowGeorge TeasdaleOrson F. WhitneyHeber C. KimballOrson HydeGeorge WashingtonChristopher ColumbusJohn TaylorWilford WoodruffRussell M. Nelson
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Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. We hope that the listeners have had a lovely Christmas, had a lovely boxing day, that they got everything.
Gerrit Is this dropping after Christmas?
Richard It is.
Gerrit Because if this were to drop before Christmas...
Richard Well, in 2022, we hope...
Gerrit We hope you had a good Christmas last year.
Richard That you went to Sam's Club, and you bought every Christmas decoration at discount for next year, unless we're the only people that do that. So we hope that it was lovely, you had time with Kith and Kin. And so we would like to just jump straight into the Phebe Draper mailbag.
Gerrit That sounds amazing.
Richard And then Moroni part six.
Gerrit Why don't you first tell our listeners what you're wearing?
Richard I am wearing Hanukkah pajama pants that were given to me as a gift from the Dirkmaat family. They're very nice.
Gerrit He was very kind to put them on.
Richard I'm wearing them now, they're lovely.
Gerrit Our wives are in the background, you won't hear them, but they'll be silently criticizing us.
Richard You might hear them. They could only contain it for so long. We received many, many, many, many emails. And again, thank you so much for all of the wonderful kind.
Gerrit We're gonna have to, well, we don't have any money, but we're gonna have to hire someone to go through our emails. I'm not sure what the going rate is on someone doing it for free.
Richard So we received one email that was so funny and so long that it would be, just reading the email would be a two-parter, but it was so great.
Gerrit They had every inside joke that the podcast ever had. They even broke their email up into multiple parts.
Intro They had bonus content.
Gerrit Yeah, and plus they were a listener from Georgia. I mean, but we're not gonna be able to read that email today because we'd be to season 38. We're gonna have to, we're gonna circle back. We're gonna edit it. We're gonna circle back.
Richard You know who you are, and it was very, very well done.
Gerrit And it's actually a pretty good question that we can't quite cover quite yet, but I mean, we could, but we have another topic we're on.
Richard So this email comes to us in the Phebe Draper mailbag from Jeff. Would you allow the former bishop of five serving missionaries to submit their email address for paid content? I hate to play the Wisconsin card, but I did join the church while attending college in the great state of Wisconsin.
Gerrit So first of all, that makes him a unicorn.
Richard Or a liar.
Gerrit No, so here's the thing. Had anyone else emailed us and said, I joined the church in Wisconsin, we would automatically say, well, this person's clearly trying to get our address to send us anthrax. This is obviously somebody who's a liar. There's no possible way that this person joined the church in Wisconsin. I know I've been there. But in this actual particular instance, very particular instance, this guy I know is a member in Wisconsin because he was the ward mission leader when I was in Kenosha, Wisconsin. So he was an active member. He came to church. He paid tithing.
Richard That's why he was a bishop.
Gerrit No, he's in Utah now.
Richard Oh, he's in Utah.
Gerrit He's not in Wisconsin anymore.
Richard Yeah.
Gerrit So you wanna know the other crazy connection, crazy connection. So I, he was far and away the best ward mission leader in Wisconsin. I mean, now, I don't mean to say anything negative, Jeff, but there were a lot of really bad ones. But I mean, you were great. You were great. And he taught gospel principles class excellence, you know, whenever you bring an investigator. The scariest thing for any of our missionaries listening, you already know.
Richard Well, so actually, I've given some thought to this. People love lists. I thought for a while we should, now, we can't just do it off the top of our head. A lot of preparation goes into this, but top five lists, top 10 lists. I really think we should get into lists. And just you saying this, I mean, I don't know that I have a top five, but in terms of the number one, of the fears of a missionary, would you say number one is what?
Gerrit Well, so, oh boy. I mean, getting sent to Wisconsin. I don't know.
Richard So to have an investigator come to church, number one fear is?
Gerrit Frankly, to have an investigator come to church at all.
Richard No, that's such, when I, in the Sun City ward, in the Menifee Stake, I, oh man, all commerce. That was the best one.
Gerrit The problem was that, so you're worried that they're gonna be there on Fast and Testimony Day.
Richard That's the one. That's exactly what I was thinking.
Gerrit The one time that this had to go.
Richard Who's mentioning co-op first?
Gerrit Well, so honestly, it wasn't in the Kenosha ward, so Jeff won't know about this. But when I was in another part of Wisconsin, we had a family that, I mean, I rarely had any golden contacts on my mission. Don't worry, these people didn't get baptized. And, well, I mean, I think that people might be like, oh, it was successful. No, it wasn't, it wasn't. Just, let me just cut to the end of the story. It wasn't successful. But we knocked on this door of this family.
Richard Planting seeds out there.
Gerrit I mean, yeah, yeah. I'm-
Richard You're Johnny Appleseed.
Gerrit Johnny Appleseed all over Wisconsin. Well, so we knocked on this door and this guy answered the door, nicest guy in the world. And he and his wife, you know, they let us in, you know, which never ever ever happened in Wisconsin. They didn't let us in. We talked to them kind of on the doorstep, but they didn't, you know, tell us to get out and call the cops. So I mean, I thought that was something. So we've taught them half of a first discussion. We did the Joseph Smith principle. We talked about the Book of Mormon, handed them the Book of Mormon, invited them to come to church, okay? They know nothing about our religion. And lo and behold, they showed up at church that Sunday, the next Sunday, right after we'd been there. So we've taught them nothing. And frankly, I'm sure since I was the one teaching, it wasn't even very good to begin with, right? So they know the Joseph Smith story. They know the Book of Mormon, and we gave them a copy of the Book of Mormon, and they show up at church.
Gerrit So we have all kinds of things running through our minds, right? Like, oh my goodness, of course we go sit by and we try to introduce them to some other members. We're trying to scramble here. And of course, the opening hymn in the sacrament meeting was Praise to the Man, which is one of my favorite songs.
Richard But out of context could be confusing.
Gerrit Right, when everyone you know says those Mormons worship Joseph Smith.
Richard No, we don't.
Gerrit No, we do not. What hymn are you singing? Praise to Joseph Smith. I mean, and so, yeah.
Richard Well, do you remember the closing hymn?
Gerrit You know what, it gets better, okay? So, the closing hymn. You think I'm making this up.
Richard So, can I make a guess?
Gerrit Okay, go ahead.
Richard Okay, so, Oh My Father or If You Could Hide A Cold Walk.
Gerrit It was If You Could Hide A Cold Walk.
Richard Oh, of course it was. Which also is the hymn I Love As Well.
Gerrit It's honestly my favorite hymn. If I had to pick a hymn, you can't even get good recordings of it because no one records it because it's too long and too weird. I love it. If anyone's a musician and wants to record a nice, if you could-
Richard Top five favorite hymns.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard No, so mine, by the way, Press Forward Saints, number one, and then Oh My Father, number two.
Gerrit Well, so doctrinally, right? I mean, look, we believe all those things, but they're, it's a little bit of meat before milk when you've just walked in the door. So Sacrament Meeting finishes, and his wife turns to me and she's like, I have a lot of questions. And I'm like, I know you do. We'll get a chance to talk about it. She's like, co-op? What is this? Is what she said. She said, co-op, what is this?
Richard I feel that's the appropriate response.
Gerrit Okay, so I said, you know what? We'll just go at, in that ward, we had Relief Society and Priesthood was second hour and then, sorry, and then the Sunday School was the third hour. I don't really know.
Richard Well, they're rotating around.
Gerrit I guess so, but anyway, so we get her bundled off to Relief Society. I'm like, let's just go to Relief Society and after that, because we would be with them in gospel principles for the third hour.
Richard So, no, Relief Society would be a safe landing spot for us.
Gerrit That's what I thought. The door closes, and this is back when people would still do opening. I mean, look, this is like the 90s, right? So, the late, late, late 90s. I'm not that old, but still.
Richard And the way before time, and the long, long ago.
Gerrit For those of you who have children who don't know that there were things called cordless phones that weren't cell phones, that. Going to the Relief Society, back then, they would do like an opening exercises. I know there are probably some wards that still do it, but they would actually sing a hymn, and they'd have a prayer, you know what I mean?
Richard Yeah, yeah, I remember.
Gerrit So, the door closes, I sit her next to this nice lady, they're talking, it seems fine, okay, I think the initial, what is co-op has worn off. The initial, these guys worship Joseph Smith has worn off. And my companion and I are like, okay, so we start walking back, we're just gonna go sit in elders quorum with this other guy, because elders quorum was a little more sketchy than the Religious Society. Always. Yeah. We knew who was teaching, so we're like, we gotta get back there quick. And as we're walking away, we hear them singing the opening hymn, Oh My Father. All the trifecta, the holy trinity of songs you can't have with a brand new investigator. They did all three. It sounds like I'm making this up. As soon as we got back together for Gospel Principles, she said, so a mother, like a female god? And I was like, yes.
Richard You're not going to believe this, but that's all some people are going to want to talk about 30 years from now.
Gerrit They were great people. They eventually stopped meeting with us. But the point being, missionaries have a lot of different experiences on their mission. And that's why we're giving the premium content to missionaries along with the free content. So hopefully it can help them answer some of the questions they have. And that's part of why Richard was reading this, and I shouldn't have gone off on that tangent. I'm sorry, Rex's elders.
Richard Well, because we're trying to do it within the rules, and certain missions have certain rules of things they can and can't access. My sons have told me both in Spain and Peru that they can access it this way, and so maybe other missionaries can as well. We've had lots and lots. So the reason I bring this one up, although there's this connection with Jeff here, is that he just gives a list of a bunch of missionaries.
Gerrit It was pretty awesome.
Richard Yeah, it was awesome. And so I will say, really appreciated it. It was much easier than adding one or two, adding, you know, five, ten, thirty.
Gerrit Oh, I did forget to say the connection with Jeff. Oh, yeah, yeah. So in a crazy coincidence, right, on the other side, Jeff and his wife, they moved to Utah, and they he ends up being a high school teacher of my wife when she was a senior in high school. So we he knew both of us, even though Angie and I didn't know each other. And then, of course, Angie and I got married. But yeah, I think if you're listening, you know that at this point. So anyway, thank you, Jeff, for the email. Appreciate it.
Richard All right. So this next email comes to us from Cat and Jared. I don't have the subject. I cut the subject line off here. It seems like there's a joke here. So what I'm going to have to do is read another email that we're going to read. Gerrit will filibuster. I'll find the subject and come back to this one.
Gerrit Most of this podcast is us just infuriating people as they're waiting for us to get to the contest.
Richard So this email comes from, from Mandy. I got an illegal message from my missionary in Brazil on a recent non-P day that just said, my companion is sick as a dog. We can't go out and I'm so bored. Can you send me some podcasts to listen to? I knew just the cure. Can you please send him the link to the premium content? If it isn't a cure for boredom, it will at least lull him to sleep, which is, that's very funny.
Gerrit Missionaries need good rest.
Richard As my son Rigdon says, when you have nothing else to do, it's okay. In all seriousness, he has enjoyed your podcast and I have sent him, that I sent him and actually agrees with me that you're both pretty funny. Well, now that's why we're reading this.
Gerrit Yeah, no wonder.
Richard And you've sparked some interesting conversations between us on P-Day, which I love. I know after the mission, he won't want to spend hours at a time talking to his mom on the phone, so I'm soaking it all up while I can. Thanks for the hours you spend to create meaningful, interesting and testimony strengthening content. Thursdays are my favorite day of the week. Thanks to you two. Hope you both have an amazing Christmas season. And so, Mandy, one of the... So first of all, it's a very sweet email, and we sent him all the stuff, but one of the things that has been cool too is I've also had these great conversations with sons that six months earlier, ain't no way...
Gerrit His son Rigdon has actually emailed the podcast multiple times. We haven't read any of his emails on AVIAT.
Richard They're pretty funny.
Gerrit We're not going to answer any of his questions, but he has emailed a few times.
Richard They're all about polygamy.
Gerrit Season 38. You just got to hold out, extend.
Richard So there were a lot of grammar and spelling errors in the first email he sent, and I said, hey, dude...
Gerrit Did you regress?
Richard Yeah, and he said, I'm typing with a Spanish keyboard.
Gerrit What do you want from me?
Richard I'm doing the best I can.
Gerrit Now, I did find the missing subject heading to the email you were going to read. I notice now why you cut it off, because the email opens, hello, Professor Richard LeDuc, but the subject heading is, I love Gerrit Dirkmaat. He's funny.
Richard Interesting.
Gerrit So it's interesting that I find it... I mean, that's kind of a coincidence. Oh, I don't have the subject. I'm sure it was something.
Richard That is a coincidence.
Gerrit Next thing you know, we're playing Oh My Father in the background. Okay.
Richard Well, that is... Well, all right. The subject of this email was a direct quote from our 20-year-old missionary serving in Manila, Philippines.
Gerrit See, that's why you needed the subject.
Richard That's right. And that's how he answered when we told him that you were giving him access to the podcast on Google Drive and asked if we could reach out for him. He listened to Standard of Truth podcast before his mission and obviously loves it, so we think he would enjoy the premium content. Well, you know, we do. Oh, well, how about that? We are subscribers, and if he could use podcast apps, we'd buy him a subscription too. Which is, again, the reason why we said it on Google is because they're limited in access.
Gerrit Yeah, we hope that they can access a drive even if they're not allowed to access.
Richard And we hope that it's okay that they are, by the way.
Gerrit Well, we know that at least in one case it wasn't, and the missionary who was designated to go through and delete it instead listened to all of it and then asked for more.
Richard We do recommend the podcast, everyone, we can. We have sincerely appreciated all the work that goes into doing this podcast. The banter and humor between the two of you is hilarious. Gerrit has such an extensive knowledge that is truly remarkable. And you always seem to ask the questions that we want to ask, it's uncanny. With your powers combined, Power Twins activate, form of the podcast.
Gerrit Form of Standard of Truth.
Richard The podcast has helped us put challenging historical stories into perspective and has given us the tools to do the same with other questions we may come across. It has been invaluable. I will say to that particular point though, that's one of the things that I know Gerrit really hopes for is that we haven't hit every subject, obviously. But at least-
Gerrit And we can't. We can't, it's not possible to hit every subject.
Richard But that at least that you see how a historian approaches it and then can have a more critical eye toward some of these things. So that when we don't hit a particular topic, you're at least saying, ah, I don't know about that.
Gerrit Yeah, that when someone's like, yeah, I've got like perfect evidence that Brigham Young was part of like a conspiracy with other families in the world to rule the world that you can be like, well, maybe. What's your source on that?
Richard We have, so then they sent to this elder. We sent the access to it. And so we have another son, Lex, also part of the two missionaries out at the same time.
Gerrit Wow, you guys are in a guild.
Richard We have another son who is on a mission in Brazil. He has, now they give the actual name of the mission. I would slaughter it, so Brazil it is. He has never listened before, but he's a greenie and hungry for knowledge. So I feel like it will be a good time to introduce him as well. Thank you for all you do. Thank Gerrit as well for us. Cat and Jared.
Gerrit Yeah, thank you, Cat and Jared. You guys are awesome. What a great email and thank you for being willing to send two kids out on a mission at the same time. That's how the kingdom gets built. Well, let's get into, I know we've got people screaming at the.
Richard Yep, let's do to Rex, Rex's Elves Corn President 18 minutes in.
Gerrit Yeah, well, I mean, we needed a little bit of a Wisconsin soliloquy, I think. So we said a few weeks ago, we were gonna do a Moroni addendum.
Richard And then you lost it.
Gerrit And then apparently I had some kind of a, I don't know what happened.
Richard Yeah, some sort of a fever.
Gerrit It was a fever dream. Yeah, and I started, I just got angry and.
Richard It was good. So we, the most popular episode that we've done is the Moroni episodes.
Gerrit I think I'm pretty angry in those too.
Richard Those, we're nearing two million listens, by the way. It's very exciting. And it's actually ridiculous.
Gerrit Yeah, because really there should be about two and a half million less listens.
Richard But there should be negative.
Gerrit People should have the counter going backwards.
Richard Yeah, like Ferris Bueller's Day Off. Anyway, that's the most popular by a lot. But we have received a lot of very, very favorable response to that Joseph Smith testimony where we were going to talk about Moroni and then never, never did.
Gerrit So, yeah, I mean, and I appreciate that. People were very kind. Again, we read all of your emails. We literally can't read them all unless we did like multiple podcasts that were just us reading emails, which is what it feels like this one is.
Richard It does. But so that one was very popular. It was popular because people felt, there's a couple of things about it that were great. The defense of Joseph and the testimony that you gave was great. And my wife is not the only one that likes Angry Gerrit. There are several people who really like Angry Gerrit. But we teased for now two weeks.
Gerrit For months at this point.
Richard Moroni Addendum, Moroni Part 6.
Gerrit Well, part of what spurs Moroni Addendum is a couple of things. Friend of the show, Josh, sent a text saying that, asking about the keys that Moroni has. And that's one of the things that we don't normally think of, right? That Moroni holds keys. Kind of the same way that we don't normally think of the fact that the very fact that Moroni is a resurrected being appearing to Joseph is in and of itself completely radical Christian doctrine, right? Christians don't believe that angels are people, they believe angels are creatures. Right, which we dropped that podcast again just a few weeks ago. If you're wondering. But the other aspect is that Moroni actually has keys himself. And those keys are discussed by Joseph a couple of times, but they're especially outlined in Doctrine and Covenants, section 27, where it says that Moroni has the keys of the stick of Ephraim.
Gerrit And it's an interesting way to describe that, that Moroni has these keys. I mean, I think he asked the question of whether or not there are other keys that he has. The prophet was given all of the keys that are committed to men on earth at this time. Now, of course, there's other keys, like the key to resurrection that Jesus holds and we don't have yet. And that, you know, that's, that awaits for the rest of the resurrection. But we also had a question quite a long time ago from someone asking about something that they had heard about Moroni. And that is, did Moroni dedicate the site for the Manti Temple? And I had planned to talk about this in our, I mean, what was our Moroni? Like nine parts already?
Richard It was, it was five. It was five parts.
Gerrit Did we really do five parts on it?
Richard Yeah, we've never done a multi-parter and then we did five on Moroni.
Gerrit You know what? Moroni is worth it.
Richard Yeah, it was great.
Gerrit How long was he wandering around with plates?
Richard About as long as we talked about it.
Gerrit Yeah, it was very similar. Furthermore, Moroni, not a premium content subscriber, but I think very good at keeping the plates safe. This question, I've gotten actually a couple of times because it is such a big part of the lore surrounding the Manti Temple. So I thought I would kind of talk about it and trace that back. And then we have another question about Moroni that stemmed from those podcasts that I thought I'd get to as well. But let's talk about that first one first. So this story you've probably heard, if you're from Manti, you haven't just heard about it, like you haven't embroidered on a doily somewhere, but you may have heard it at some point. And the reason why you may have heard it is it has been repeated a couple of times. This is great actually. The improvement era that this story was published in, in 1968, what are the odds?
Gerrit Just so happens to be the exact same improvement era that a certain story that I know Richard is going to have near and dear to his heart is also published. One from your mission, one from someone finding a Book of Mormon.
Richard Vincenzo di Francesca?
Gerrit Vincenzo di Francesca!
Intro Oh my gosh, burn the book!
Gerrit Repent of your stoneness!
Richard How rare a possession, oh, tremendous!
Gerrit So I'm reading this improvement era, doing the research for the show, right? Because I know it seems like we don't do any, but anytime you get into the 20th century, I'm like, I don't even know what this is. I know American history way better in the 20th century because I taught it. And it's the same issue. It's a different article in there, but it's Vincenzo di Francesca, 1968, improvement era.
Richard Many a slow, boring P-Day where we would go to the church library and watch how rare a possession.
Gerrit And I was forever out of the sex. When he gets excommunicated. I love the fact that he's preaching from the Book of Mormon.
Richard So I was in Switzerland this year, and we went to the temple there, and I was trying to tell Becky all about it. I'm like, this is where a movie you've never seen. This is it. This is the spot.
Gerrit It was the greatest story ever, especially if you were a missionary in Wisconsin, because it was like, maybe one of the Book of Mormons that we give out that no one reads, that someone tries to throw away, someone will eventually find with the cover ripped off and become converted, and then figure out who they are, and then they'll join the church. That was the hope we held on to.
Richard Yeah, like Johnny Witzel, he wrote him a letter saying, hey, we'll get to you.
Gerrit Yeah, yeah, we'll, like, I don't know, like 20, 30 years, we can just baptize. You know, what are you gonna do? Maybe you should learn to travel. Anyway, so that story's told in there, but of course we wanna kind of trace it back. So where would it get, that's where it's gonna get a long discussion. And that improvement era is quoting a very popular book from the early 20th century. The early 20th century has a book written by one of Richard's favorite people, Orson F. Whitney. Orson F. Whitney's one of Richard's favorite apostles. Do you like how I know who Richard's favorite apostles are?
Richard Yeah, oh yeah. No, is it the October or April 1929 conference? That was fire.
Gerrit Yeah, that is an amazing one. And one of the first ones broadcast on radio. Anyway. But that's 20th century, don't hold me to it. So, in his book on Heber C. Kimball. So Heber C. Kimball, it's the life of Heber C. Kimball. He writes a biography of Heber C. Kimball, who's just an essential original apostle and best friends with Brigham Young. And so he really, as an apostle, has one of the most outsized influence on the church of anyone who doesn't become the president of the church. And so Orson F. Whitney quotes this story about Moroni in his book. That book is super popular in the early 20th century. And so that's how it gets into the Latter-day Saint lexicon. So then the question becomes, and then of course the improvement era just quotes his book, because the person writing the improvement era article was like, oh man, there was a great story of the book I read back in the day.
Gerrit So then the question is, well, where does that come from? Well, he's quoting from a early church publication from the time period, from the millennial star. So the millennial star is going to cover the, it's gonna cover the dedication of the Manti Temple. And as part of that dedication is going to talk about, it's gonna provide some details as to the things that happened. So this is from the 1888, August 13th, 1888, millennial star. It's written in a letter format from a letter that's written to George Teasdale, July 2nd, 1888. So right after the dedication. Dear brother, no doubt you've heard from the brethren of your quorum of the good times experienced in the dedication of this temple and the enjoyable times of the 21st, 22nd and 23rd of May at the services held here.
Gerrit And then he goes on to say, here's a whole bunch of things that happened as far as how much labor was done. He goes on to say, I know this fact is interesting to you, feeling as you do, the great benefit that is derived from this labor and the results that proceed there from. But since my labor is here, I have been writing up the dedicatory services and in addition thereto have gathered some very interesting items pertaining to this holy mountain of the Lord that I feel to give some of them to you. In an early day when President Young and party were making the location of a settlement here, President Heber C. Kimball, and you can see the reason why this made it into Orson F. Whitney's book, because it references Heber C. Kimball, prophesying. President Heber C. Kimball prophesied that the day would come when a temple would be built on this hill. Some disbelieved and doubted the possibility of even making a settlement here. Brother Kimball said, Well, it will be so, and more than that. The rock will be quarried from that hill to build it with, and some of the stone from that quarry will be taken to help complete the Salt Lake Temple.
Gerrit On July 29, 1878, two large stones, weighing respectively 5,600 and 5,020 pounds, were taken from the Manti Stone Quarry, hauled by team to York to the railroad terminus, and shipped to Salt Lake City to be used for the tablets in the east and west ends of the Salt Lake City Temple. So he feels that prophecy is being fulfilled. You no doubt have seen them yourself, and no brother Heber's prophecy has been literally fulfilled. He then is going to talk more about where the location of the temple is. Remember, we're in 1888. He's looking back now on when they decided on where the temple would be built. At a conference held in Ephraim, San Pete County, June 25, 1875, nearly all the speakers expressed their feelings to have a temple built in San Pete County, and gave their views as to what point and where to build it. And to show the union that existed, Elder Daniel H. Wells said, Manti, George Q.
Gerrit Cannon, Brigham Young Jr. John Taylor, Orson Hyde, Erastus Snow, Franklin D. Richards, Lorenzo Snow, and Abraham Musser said, Manti Stone Quarry. I have given the names and order in which they spoke. At 4 p.m. that day, President Young said, the temple should be built on Manti Stone Quarry. So the plan to build it on that stone quarry. Now here is the key part. This is what you've waited through, those of you. So many addenda, so many parts of Moroni. Early on the morning of April 25th, 1877, President Brigham Young, so notice he's talking about a June 1875 conference, we're fast forwarding now here a couple years, April 25th, 1877. Early on the morning of April 25th, 1877, President Young asked Brother Warren S. Snow to go with him to the Temple Hill. Brother Snow says, We too were alone.
Gerrit President Young took me to the spot where the temple was to stand. We went to the southeast corner, and President Young said, Here is the spot where the Prophet Moroni stood and dedicated this piece of land for a temple site. And that is the reason why the location is made here. And we can't move it from this spot. And if you and I are the only persons that come here at high noon today, we will dedicate this ground. So this is the source of it. And then of course from this, it gets republished in multiple other different venues. Now, let me give you the other side of this. And for everyone in Manti, I'm sorry. Some historians and certainly some armchair historians have wondered about this because it is such this prophetic thing.
Gerrit And I think some people have wondered about it because that Moroni is in Manti dedicating the site for the temple has been used by some people trying to make other arguments about where the Book of Mormon took place to demonstrate Moroni being in what would later become the United States and therefore maybe all of the Book of Mormon took place in the United States, or people on the other side of the ledger have said, well, clearly Moroni wandered everywhere. He wandered all the way from Central America up to the Hill Cumorah, and on his way, he stopped and he dedicated the Manti Temple Ground. You'll notice, however, how very little details this story gives us. We don't even actually know whether Moroni did this as a resurrected beat. We don't really know. I mean, we assume that they mean when he is, when he's in mortality. But the reason why some people have been skeptical is there's no other source that references this.
Gerrit In all of the dedication services, John Taylor makes a pretty extensive sermon about it and doesn't reference this. It appears to not be something that is spoken about or at least well known among all of the apostles who are in attendance. It's no part of the dedication service. Wilford Woodruff, who has no shyness about telling you when people from the other side appear, his whole journal is, an angel appeared to me yesterday. Oh wait, here's another one. Let's see if they know each other. He's constantly seeing beyond the veil. He doesn't make any mention of it. And so that's the reason why there's been some skepticism. I think what's fueling the skepticism is that people are attempting to use the story to make a different argument. I think that's probably what drives it. And then, of course, what fuels the skepticism of a story is by his own statement, by Warren Snow's own statement, he's the only one with Brigham Young.
Gerrit Brigham Young himself never says this. None of his writings say this. None of his journals say this. None of his letters say this. Does that mean it didn't happen? Absolutely not. That wouldn't prove anything. Joseph Smith doesn't write in his journal about Satan appearing to him like unto an angel of light and having Michael appear to detect him. We only find that out from a letter he writes to the church in 1842. And that letter has no details in it. We just know that it happened. Of course, among residents of Manti and especially people in the Snow family, they hold this story to be near and dear. Look, Warren Snow is not just some Johnny-come-lately in the church. He's one of the major leaders of southern Utah. He's a bishop, leader of the church there. I mean, he's a key member of the church all of his life. And we have quite a few writings from him, letters from him, things like that.
Gerrit And so, of course, his family members will say, look, this is something that was passed on through family tradition, and it's not the kind of thing that grandpa would have made up. He didn't make up, you know, Brigham Young telling him things. But that's kind of where the controversy, I think, surrounds it. I mean, I don't like that it's a huge controversy. But you will occasionally find anti-Mormons say things like, you know how ridiculous it is that Mormons say that Angel Moroni dedicated the Manti Temple?
Richard Like, that's the most ridiculous thing?
Gerrit It is pretty funny. Like, if you're ever on an anti-Mormon subreddit, which I strongly encourage you not to be, although my brother Dallin seems to be frequenting them on Twitter. The arguments that they think are the best arguments are just crazy. It's an unbelievable thing. And I think we kind of talked about that last time when I got angry.
Richard Well, no, it's... So, look, believe or not believe, you're already so far down the rabbit hole to say that it's ridiculous, that the angel Moroni dedicated this for a temple. You're passing a lot of exits to get to that part.
Gerrit Yeah, you're essentially on the Pan-American Highway, and you've made it to Tierra del Fuego.
Richard But for you to be saying... I would be a member of the church, I'd join right now, but I just can't believe...
Gerrit I can't believe you guys tell that story that Moroni dedicated the temple spot.
Richard Yeah, it's like, come on, get out of here.
Gerrit I think it actually is a good example, though, of how when people attempt to take miraculous experiences of the past to try to make other arguments, usually what ends up happening is you actually lessen the impact of the miraculous statement. You don't prove your political point. I mean, frankly, if you're trying to prove your political or even your religious point that's beyond the point that the church is trying to teach by using something from the past, you're not going to convince the people that are on the other side. And what you are going to do is now cheapen that miraculous statement. And so not only do you not convince, you actually now make it less powerful. And I think that might be what's happened here. When I hear people talking about this experience, they talk about it with derision, because well, of course, that didn't happen. Now look, when you're talking about a conversation between Brigham Young and a local leader of the church that is not recorded anywhere else and Brigham Young is dead, well, you have no other option but to rely on what that person said.
Gerrit As a historian, you certainly can't rely on it in a way that is ironclad. You can't simply have someone 100 years, well, 10 years after George Washington is dead, who says, oh yeah, George Washington also told me he thought that they should put free candy bars in the Constitution. That's what he told me, but I mean, you guys believe that, right? You simply can't take as 100% certain something that doesn't have corroborating evidence. At the same time, especially when you're dealing with the miraculous and when you're dealing with testimonies, you can't reject something simply because you don't have an ability to corroborate it, right? How would I corroborate some of the miracles of Jesus? Well, I mean, it's in a couple of the different gospels. Yeah, but the gospel writers are quoting one another. I mean, that wouldn't be taken as multiple independent attestation.
Gerrit And even if it was, it wouldn't prove that those events happened. So I think this is one of those things that the way you would describe it is, one of the local leaders in Manti, who was there during this entire time from the dedication to the time that the temple was completed, dedication to the ground, the time that the temple was completed, testified and publicly repeated multiple times that Brigham Young had said that to him. And that is a true statement. It's a true statement to say Warren Snow said Brigham Young said this about Moroni. If you're asking, well, can we definitively prove that? Well, first of all, Moroni coming would be a miracle. So no, you can't definitively prove whether or not an angel appeared. Well, can we definitively prove whether or not Brigham Young said that? No, you can't because it's not in any contemporary record from Brigham Young.
Gerrit But the fact that it's not in a contemporary record also doesn't prove that it's false. So I think that that's an important thing to go on here. Now, clearly this letter to George Teasdale is including a lot of reminiscent accounts, but it's not like a reminiscence of 40, 50, 60 years. It's 1888, and they're remembering a conversation from 1877. That suggests to me that some kind of conversation took place. Now, as we've already pointed out in this podcast and other episodes, sometimes people hear things a little bit differently than what the way they were actually said, and we've given examples of that. I mean, think about Joseph Smith drowning in the planks, when the planks were sought apart, right?
Richard Those mischievous children.
Gerrit Oh, those children. Why do they do it? At the same time, I wouldn't completely discard it either. I would simply say there is an account of a local church leader who we know regularly corresponds with Brigham Young. We have those letters, who we know was a local church leader when Brigham Young came down to the spot, and who says Brigham Young told him that's why they had the prophecy to put it on the Manti Stone Quarry. So no way to be definitive on that, but look, that's a pretty cool story. That's what I think.
Richard Yeah, I think it's awesome.
Gerrit Now, one other thing that, of course, people raise, someone asked whether or not Moroni was with George Washington at Valley Forge.
Richard With him when he was kneeling to pray?
Gerrit Right, with the painting that we have, kneeling in Valley Forge, was Moroni with him.
Richard So you've talked about that painting a lot, by the way. Are you saying that George Washington never prayed at Valley Forge? That's what you're saying.
Gerrit That's what you're saying here now. No, what I'm saying is, we don't have any accounts of George Washington going off and praying by himself at Valley Forge. Could he have? Absolutely.
Richard I bet he did quite a bit of praying at Valley Forge.
Gerrit Well, Washington's not a super religious guy.
Richard Valley Forge is going to make you one. I'm not coming off my point.
Gerrit George Washington believes in God for sure, but he does have more deistic tendencies the same way that Thomas Jefferson did. So it's not a matter of, do I believe in God? It's more a matter of, I'm not so sure that Church of England God is the God I'm praying to anymore. Which is not a hard thing to come across when you're fighting the English. It's a lot easier to be like, I'm not sure they were right about religion, just like they weren't right about freedom. They seem to have been wrong about a lot of things. Anyway, so let's talk about this other story. Where does this come from? You might have heard that, that George Washington had an experience with Moroni, that Moroni was there with him. And I think that in order to do it justice, I'm going to probably need to read a considerable amount of this sermon.
Gerrit So for those of you who are preparing to drive a long distance, I'm going to need you to pull over. We're not liable for this. Where does this come from? Well, it comes from Orson Hyde's talk that he gives on the celebration of the Fourth of July. Now, Orson Hyde is, again, prominent leader of the church. This is 1854. So this is very early, and this is something you can find in the Journal of Discourse. So this is where this comes from. Now, again, the reason why you're probably thinking about this story now is that there have been people, again, trying to make other arguments, arguments that are different than what Orson Hyde is making. There have been people who have used very small portions of his talk in order to prove a point they were trying to make.
Gerrit That's the reason why I think it's important we read it. So usually when I hear this, when I hear about it, I hear about it in, for lack of a better term, a nationalistic sort of way, right? That God foreordained the creation of the United States and went so far to undertake those efforts that Moroni was there with George Washington on the battlefield, right? I mean, is that how you probably heard of it?
Richard Yeah, so as part of the issue then, I mean, we have plenty, we've talked about this several times, usually on the 4th of July podcast, when you're trashing the country.
Gerrit That is not true. Go back and listen.
Richard Yeah, please do.
Gerrit Over and over and over.
Richard So you have a circumstance where Joseph and many of the early prophets and apostles talk about this being a country that was blessed by the hand of God, but how there's almost a fallen nature to this. I think it was the Civil War one specifically.
Gerrit We talked about it with the Civil War. We also talked about it with the Council of 50, I think, to a certain degree.
Richard So these are very patriotic members of the Church and very frustrated with how the federal government is treated. But there's quite a few prophetic things that are said about the creation of the United States.
Gerrit Even in the Doctrine and Covenants, right? That have redeemed this nation by the shedding of blood, by the men that God raised up for the Constitution of the United States. I mean, like, that God is involved in the founding of the United States in pushing that forward to come to pass. I mean, that's made very clear by Joseph Smith. The problem is when those things are being stated, they are being stated with also an air of, and look where you're at now. Like, this would be like saying, hey, you were a number one draft pick, and now you can't even get on the bench in the Canadian Football League. I apologize to all of our Canadian listeners.
Richard And so, well, they know. Oh, what about Doug Flutie? So you have a circumstance here where people are maybe reaching for things to try and extend on that point.
Gerrit Yeah, so I think what happens is to, for Latter-day Saints in the 20th century, patriotic feelings towards the United States government became a part of their religion almost. We had multiple talks on it. It was part of what you would learn as a boy scout, what you'd learn about this duty and honor to the country. And it was easy because at the time of the Cold War, the greatest threat to the church was also the greatest threat to the United States, and that was international communism, which was godless, which not only denied the existence of God, but prevented people from worshiping, kept all of our missionaries out. So anywhere that became communist, that was the end of our missionary efforts, right? And so all throughout the Cold War, the United States government is in many ways seen as the pharaoh that's raised up by God to do the Lord's will in order to prevent the spread of communism and to allow missionary work to continue to go forward.
Gerrit I remember, this sounds like I'm making up a story here. And you know what? No one can vet me on this. That's what I'm talking about. So you guys write into the podcast, talk about how I'm lying. In the 1980s, okay, I had just watched the movie War Games. Do you remember the movie War Games?
Richard Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you bet.
Gerrit Okay. If you have, is that Matthew Broder?
Richard Yeah, yeah.
Gerrit Well, in a much more sedate role.
Richard He's always fair as, in every movie he's in, to me, he's always fair as...
Gerrit Yeah, I kind of feel the same way with, you know, with Hans Solo, you know, I mean, it just doesn't matter where you're... I know you're not, but you are. You're Hans Solo to me, always. Harrison Ford? Yeah, Harrison Ford. I mean, well, I guess he's at or in Indiana Jones. It could only be one or the other.
Richard But in Hans, but in, he's Hans Solo in Indiana Jones, but then he's Indiana Jones in other movies?
Gerrit I feel like he's Indiana Jones in Star Wars. I feel like he has a similar, they cast the personality pretty similarly.
Richard It's like Robert Downey Jr. in every movie. He's just Iron Man in every movie.
Gerrit Well, ever since Jurassic Park, Jeff Goldblum is a scientist and mathematician. Did you know that? Like, I saw movies before Jurassic Park where Jeff Goldblum was not cast as a scientist. After Jurassic Park, his entire career was chaos theory. I mean, that's what it was. So he became a mathematician. Anyway, so back to the point. So what happens, it was, let me, I guess I'll tell the story. My, I watched this movie, and I'm a young kid. You know, I'm in my early teens. And it's kind of a scary show, right? Like, what if everyone launches nukes and we all die? And so I'm talking to my dad, and I'm like, dad, like, so like, the Soviet Union's like never, ever, ever going to go away, is it?
Gerrit And my dad says, well, you know, we have to believe that the gospel is going to be taken to everywhere in the world. So somehow, somehow the Soviet Union is going to, God's going to eventually cause it to collapse or they're going to change, but somehow the gospel is going to be taken everywhere.
Richard What would have been funny is if you would have said, well, if your mom would have voted for Nixon, this all would have been over.
Gerrit You know what? Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's like, well, Nixon won anyway, even though my mom voted against it.
Richard Well, but, you know, every vote counts.
Gerrit Well, only the ones that you are, you know, trying to prevent from happening at the Watergate Hotel. Anyway, so I think most of our listeners, anyone who's my age or older, much of your young life and maybe even some of your adult life and older life, there was a huge patriotic fervor that the United States was, really was, you know, this land that God had created in a way defensive of the Church. The Church could only exist in its ability to preach the Gospel in a land that had religious freedom. And sure, we all still knew that everyone said that we were going to burn in hell and that we were cold and that everyone hated us, but we still saw what we had as being, you know, we were Americans and Mormons, and in fact, being a good American was part of being a good Mormon, right?
Gerrit So what happened then is we started to project that unity of religion and patriotism backwards onto the past, right? Because being a patriotic great American and loving the country is essential to my belief system today, I assume that it must be essential to Wilfred Woodrow's belief system in 1880s, right? Because being a member means being a fervently patriotic American. The problem is there was, I mean, essentially six decades of the church's existence where the federal government was not only not helpful towards the church, not only passively standing by and watching as we were persecuted and people were murdered, it was actually contributing to the persecution. So we go back and we read Wilford Woodruff's journal and we expect to read, I love this country and everything about this country.
Gerrit This country is the greatest country on this world. That's what we expect to read. And what we read instead is Wilford Woodruff saying, this country is condemned by God and his judgments are going to come on it because they have murdered the prophets, etc. So that's why you always have to take with a grain of salt anything that you read from prophets and apostles in the 1850s, 60s, 70s, 80s. And I mean a grain of salt on both sides. You can't simply lift, cherry pick a small portion of what they said and then use it to make a current political argument. Because you're taking the words out of context. Let me set the table for you, because we'll never get, will we ever get to 1854 Utah?
Richard Oh my gosh. In the premium?
Gerrit In anything. No. Just no. Not even season 38? Just never?
Richard No, no, no. I mean, LeDucs don't live that long. We usually have a heart attack around early 70s.
Gerrit You think we can get Becky to fill in after you kick her bucket?
Richard Yeah, for sure.
Gerrit But she would just be antagonizing me the whole time, telling me to like, hey, I read this anti thing, and then we'd all devolve from there. So in 1854, Utah is in this period of negative, but not wholly negative relations with the federal government. Remember, they're leaving the country thinking that a federal army is coming to kill them. They send troops to go fight in the Mormon battalion, and if you haven't listened to our Mormon battalion episodes, you can listen to those.
Richard It's a four-parter, by the way.
Gerrit Which was nearly as good of Moroni. We send troops to go fight only to find out later, Brigham Young finds out that the pretenses under which they were called was all lies. You have the president of the United States, Zachary Taylor, who specifically tells Latter-day Saint representatives that he will make sure that they are never a state or a territory in Utah as long as he's alive.
Richard How's that working out for you?
Gerrit Well, Zachary Taylor died right after that. But the reality is, if you are a Latter-day Saint living in the 1850s, in the 1860s, and then on all the way up to the 1890s and 1900s, the federal government is not just passively not helping the Latter-day Saints. They're not just standing by as people are murdered in Missouri, which is what happened with Joseph in the 1830s. They're not just standing by like they did in Nauvoo in the 1840s. Like, their apathy is a pretty big deal. But by the 1850s, they're actively speaking against the church at a federal level. It's 1854 that you're going to start having people propose that the federal government purchase copies of the Book of Mormon in order to distribute them all over the country in order to convince people what a delusion Mormonism is.
Gerrit Which, unfortunately, they didn't pass that bill, but wouldn't it have been amazing if the federal government's like...
Richard Brigham Young's like, Oh, no.
Gerrit Exactly. Brigham Young's like, Please don't do that. Whatever would... So they don't do it. You have the rise of the political party or the Republican Party, whose origination is anti-Mormon. It's certainly opposed to the expansion of slavery, but it's primarily opposed to the expansion of slavery because slavery is seen as a sin in the eyes of God. And what else is a sin in the eyes of God? Latter-day Saint theology. And so the same thing that makes a Republican in the 1850s hate slavery is actually the same thing that makes a Republican in the 1850s hate Mormons. Once you've decided that something's a sin in the eyes of God, well then, then you're going to militate against it. And so there's already been several problematic things that have happened in the first couple years of the establishment of Utah territory. And one of the things that happened was you had these officials that came to the territory.
Gerrit They're often called the runaway officials who will be horrified that those saints are practicing polygamy. They're horrified that these people, what the original complaint is, they attend a 24th of July celebration, a Pioneer Day celebration. And at that celebration, all of the speakers talked about how they were betrayed by the federal government, how many of their family members have been killed or died on the way, and how grateful they were to be out in Utah and away from those sinful, murdering Gentiles. Well, these officials are like, this anti-American rhetoric. So they respond negatively, and they actually leave their posts, and it becomes a whole thing. It would be several podcasts. It's a whole thing. There's a little bit of a to-do. That's a whole nine other podcasts. But the point being, if you were a Latter-day Saint in the 1850s, you had an incredibly conflicted relationship with the United States.
Gerrit If you're a Latter-day Saint in the early 1850s, there's a really good chance that you were part of being driven out of Missouri and part of being driven out of Nauvoo, that you watched as the federal government did nothing as people were murdered, women were assaulted, land was stolen, houses were burned down, and you watched the federal government not only do nothing, but if anything, side with the people who killed you. That is not going to make you feel really happy, warm and fuzzy inside about the federal government. At the same time, you have these revelations that talk about how the Constitution is inspired by God, that the framers of the Constitution, that they were brought up by God, that the Lord redeemed this land by the shedding of blood. And so you actually have this, you have this conflicted aspect of your religious personality. You know that the nation was founded by God, but you're also pretty certain that He's not running it right now, because you've experienced it, because you buried three of your kids in Iowa on the way to Mexico, and it just so happened that after you got to Mexico, that part of Mexico became part of the United States.
Gerrit You tried to get out of the country, and the country caught you as fast as you were running from it. And no sooner did they get back into the country that, guess what they did, started persecuting Latter-day Saints. So you're going to have this kind of conflicted view. Not understanding where Latter-day Saints were in the 1850s and 1860s will make you misread what they're saying at that time. When the Civil War breaks out, again, we talked about this in our Civil War podcast, but when the Civil War breaks out, I know that what we all want to believe is that Latter-day Saints were like, all right, we'll marshal every single one of us and we'll go march to the Union side. The Union side. The Union side run almost exclusively by the Republican Party that is trying to pass multiple laws to make your religion illegal. Yes, let's go fight for them. It would be a great time fighting, and hopefully when they win, they won't make our religion illegal, even though they keep saying, we've got to hurry and make their religion illegal.
Gerrit I mean, it's a pretty conflicted thing. The reality is many Latter-day Saints, most Latter-day Saints, they see the coming of the Civil War as the judgments of God upon the country, because Joseph and Hyrum had been murdered, because Latter-day Saints had been driven from the country, they see it as that. So, with that caveat, this is what Orson Hyde is saying on the celebration of the 4th of July. Respected friends and fellow citizens, I am called upon by wishes and voice of many persons to be one of your speakers on this ever-memorable day. While I congratulate myself upon the honor which you have done me by this selection, I sincerely regret that I am not more amply qualified to answer your expectations. Orson is being very, I think he's very self-deprecating there. We would like him on the podcast.
Richard We'll see if we can get him.
Gerrit You know, boy, I don't know. I don't know if even we could land him as a speaker. I'll skip forward just a little bit where he says, We are met, fellow citizens, to celebrate one of the most important events that ever embellished the pages of political history, an event which every American heart is proud to boast in whatever land or country he perchance may roam. I mean the bold, manly, and daring act of our fathers in the Declaration of Independence and Sovereignty of these United States. It's also important to remember, nearly all of these leaders of the Church are American-born, right? Before there was a Church, they grew up with all the same patriotic fervor towards the United States that anyone had. It only became tainted as they watched people getting murdered and they were driven out of the country. An act worthy to be engraven in letters of light, of living light upon the tablets of our memory and to be transmitted to our children with the sacred charge they teach to their children and their children's children, till the stars and stripes float over every land and are mirrored on the crest of every passing billow.
Gerrit Seems to be a suggestion that the United States would expand to fill the whole world. They had not only the moral courage to sign the Declaration of Our Nation's Independence, but hearts of iron and nerves of steel to defend it by force of arms. Against the fearful odds arrayed against them, the well-disciplined armies and the mercenary allies of the foolish and tyrannical George III, King of Britain. We are actually covering the Revolutionary War on the Condemned to Repeat It podcast on the Premium side. So if you want to learn more about the foolish, tyrannical George III, now's the time. And there's probably a lot of missionaries that are like, this doesn't seem to build my testimony at all. All I want to do is go fight for the Revolution. The progressive spirit of the times on the one hand, and the chains and cruelty and oppression on the other, inspired the apostles of American freedom to raise the standard of liberty and unfurl its banner to the world as a warning to oppressors. And as the star of hope to the oppressed, the very name of America causes a thrill of patriotic devotion to her best interest to quiver in the heart of every citizen of Utah with a zeal and a pride for the welfare of our country that does honor to the memory of those departed heroes whose ashes are mingled in our soil, made rich and dear to us by their own blood.
Gerrit Now that, he's got some beautiful prose there, right? Remember Lexington and Bunker Hill, and lastly Yorktown. With all the intermediate scenes as narrated by the history of the American Revolution. Remember the immortal Washington, chosen to lead our infant armies through the perils and hardships of an unequal contest to the climax of victory and the pinnacle of fame. His name, embalmed in the never dying sympathies of his grateful countrymen, will be heralded in the melody of song while the earth bears a plant or the ocean rolls a wave. While Columbia's sons and daughters regret and mourn Higgs' exit hence, in accents like the following, cold is the heart where valor reigned, mute is the tongue that joy inspired, still is the arm that conquest gained, and dim the eye that glory fired. They will comfort themselves and quiet the pangs of their bereaved hearts by chanting like this, too mean for him a world like this, he's landed on the happy shore where all the brave partake of bliss and heroes meet to part no more.
Gerrit You can tell so far, this is a pretty rousing patriotic speech. This is all about the greatness of the American Revolution and people like Washington. But that's why you have to read all of the sermon. In those early and perilous times, our men were few and our resources limited. Poverty was among the most potent enemies we had to encounter, yet our arms were successful. And it may not be amiss to ask here by whose power victory so often perched on our banner. It was by the agency of that same angel of God that appeared unto Joseph Smith and revealed to him the history of the early inhabitants of this country, whose mounds, bones and remains of town, cities and fortifications speak from the dust in the ears of the living with the voice of undeniable truth.
Gerrit This same angel presides over the destinies of America and feels a lively interest in all our doings. He was in the camp of Washington, and by an invisible hand, led our fathers to conquest and victory, and all this to open and prepare the way for the Church and Kingdom of God to be established on the Western Hemisphere, for the redemption of Israel, and for the salvation of the world. So there's, if you may be heard, people saying, you know, Moroni is the, you know, the guardian angel of America. This is coming from Orson Hyde's sermon here, where he does say he was in the camp of Washington, and by an invisible hand, let our fathers on. You certainly don't have a statement that he appeared to Washington and said, hey, have you thought about crossing the Delaware, you know, in order to get there?
Gerrit And you notice he's in the camp of Washington. Doesn't say, at Valley Forge.
Richard It's a beautiful sentiment, though. The idea that George Washington has to be there to be successful so that there can be a freedom of religion that allows for Joseph to bring forth the Book of Mormon. So, I mean, it's a beautiful sentiment.
Gerrit It is. This same angel, so similar, was with Columbus and gave him deep impressions by dreams and visions respecting this new world. So the way Orson Hyde is explaining is that the angel Moroni isn't just someone who has the keys of the stick of Ephraim, and he's not just entrusted with guarding the plates, but apparently he has been given the task of trying to bring to pass everything that needs to come to pass for the restoration to exist. Trampled by poverty and an unpopular cause, yet his persevering and unyielding heart would not allow an obstacle in his way too great for him to overcome. And the angel of God helped him, was with him on the stormy deep, calmed the troubled elements and guided his frail vessel to the desired haven. Under the guardianship of this same angel, or Prince of America, has the United States grown, increased and flourished, like the sturdy oak by the rivers of water.
Gerrit To what point have the American arms been directed since our declaration of national independence and proven unsuccessful? Not one. The peculiar respect that High Heaven has for this country on account of the promises made to the fathers, and on account of it being a land where the mustard seed of truth was planted and destined to grow in the last days, accounts for all of this good fortune to our beloved America. So look, Hyde's making very clearly the argument. The United States was redeemed, defeated Britain the way it did, and has become so powerful the way it has in order for the Gospel to unfold. But that's not the end of his sermon. The next line. So he says, this peculiar respect that High Heaven has for the country on account of the promises made, accounts for all this good fortune of our beloved America. But since the prophets have been slain, the saints persecuted, despoiled of their goods, banished from their homes, and no earthly arm to interpose for their rescue, what will be the future destiny of this highly favored country?
Gerrit Should I tell the truth as it clearly passes before my mind's eye? My friends might censure me, and I might be regarded as an enemy to my own country if I should not tell the truth. But withhold it to please men or avoid giving offense to any, I might be regarded by the powers celestial as an enemy of God. What shall I do under these circumstances? Shall I be guilty of the crime of hesitating for a moment? No, neither time nor place to hesitate now. Were I called upon to give evidence before a court of justice in a case to which my own father was a party litigant, the foolish might regard me as opposed to my father if conscience, justice and truth directed me to testify against his interests. But the wise would regard me as possessing that integrity that kindred ties could not swerve nor decoy from the truths and facts in the case. My testimony in relation to the country that gave me birth, that gave birth to my father and my father's father, is given upon the same principle and it's prompted by a similar motive.
Gerrit So sure and certain as the great water courses wend their way to the ocean and there find their level, so sure as the passing thundercloud hovers around yonder twin peaks of the Wasatch Mountains and upon the gray and barren rocks pours the fury of the storm, just so sure and certain will the guardian angel of these United States fly to a remote distance from their borders and the anger of the Almighty wax hot against them in causing them to drink from the cup of bitterness and division and the very dreg stirred up by the hands of foreign powers in a manner more cruel and fierce than the enemies of the saints in the days of their greatest distress and anguish. And all this because they laid not to heart the martyrdom of the saints and the prophets, avenged not their blood by punishing their murderers, neither succored nor aided the saints after they were despoiled of their goods and homes.
Gerrit Would to God that we could forget this part of our experience in the land of our fathers. But we cannot forget it. It's incorporated in our being. We shall carry it to our graves, and in the resurrection, it will rise with us. Had the United States been as faithful a guardian to the Latter Day Saints as the angel of God had been to them, she never would know disillusion, nor be humbled and dishonored by the decrees of any foreign powers. I ask no earthly being to endorse this my testimony or to adopt it as his own sentiment. A little time will prove whether Orson Hyde alone has declared it, or whether the heavenly powers will back up this testimony in the face of all the world. When justice is satisfied, and the blood of the martyrs atone for, the guardian angel of America will return to his station, resume his charge, and restore the constitution of our country to the respect and veneration of the people, for it was given by the inspiration of our God.
Gerrit So you'll notice that while if you just take a certain part of it, saying that the angel Moroni is the guardian angel of the United States, it sounds a certain way. When you read what else he has to say, and that is, and he stopped doing it. Now, someone can certainly debate whether or not the United States has properly atoned for the murder of the Latter Day Saints. Certainly no one's ever brought to justice for those murders. Their land's never given back to them. Maybe someone could argue, well, the suffering during the Civil War brought it, but I'll tell you what, after the Civil War, the United States passes ever increasing anti-Mormon laws against the Saints. There's a reason why Wilford Woodruff in 1888 believes the judgments of God are going to come upon the United States then, because they've gone so far away from the principles of truth.
Gerrit So, I mean, this sermon goes on, but he starts talking more about things that they're doing in the territory and things like that. But that's where that other aspect of Moroni comes from, him being a guardian angel. But I think you would have to say, though, the same person who said he is the guardian angel of the United States or of America is also the same person who said he stopped being it, he stopped being it, and he's not going to be it again until the saints are essentially in some way remunerated for their losses. And you'd have to have an argument about whether or not that ever happened, right? Interestingly, just earlier this week, well, I guess when this podcast drops will have been earlier several weeks ago, there was a debate that was had online because in the Iowa State House, there was a satanic display that was put up.
Gerrit Now, the Church of Satan, which is hilarious to say those words, loves to do this. They love to try to force municipalities to put up satanic ritual things because of anything religious around the holidays. And so this Iowa State House has this satanic idol that's there. Well, and a very irate and upset Christian, former lawmaker, took matters into his own hands and, you know, like Hezekiah, he smashed the idols and it became a whole national story. Now, why does that have anything to do with this? Well, in criticizing this event, one conservative who, you know, isn't a fan of Satan, but was like, look, that's not how we deal with things in America. We don't just go destroy it. They posted a poll asking, do you think it would be okay for people to just go and attack a Mormon temple?
Gerrit They didn't use the term Latter Day Saint because...
Richard Oh, you think they'd be respectful?
Gerrit Well, I mean, the stunning results of that poll were that many, many, many people in America today...
Richard I think it was 40%...
Gerrit . believe that it would be totally justifiable to desecrate a Latter Day Saint temple or meeting house because it's the wrong worship of God, just like... which I was very put out by the fact that, like, let me get this straight.
Richard So just like the Satan...
Gerrit So in order to try to prove your point about how it's not wrong, the example you gave was, well, what's like almost close to Satan worship, but not really? I know, Mormonism. So it was a little annoying. But the reality is Latter Day Saints still face an enormous amount of hatred in the United States. And so I'll leave it up to the individual listener to determine. Maybe the United States has paid that debt that Orson Hyde put forth. But if we're going to use Orson Hyde's quote to explain the great destinies of America, then we also need to use the rest of Orson Hyde's quote. Because he's also saying that he sees and vision that the angel has withdrawn himself because of the prophets being slain and the saints being persecuted, people being slaughtered. I know this went a little bit long this time, but you know what? I didn't want to do Moroni Addendum Part 2.
Richard We're going into the end of... This is the end of Season 3, going into Season 4.
Gerrit And this is how we wanted to end it?
Richard Well, it would be weird to just start a new season with Part 2 of the previous season.
Gerrit No, but not even Part 2, Part 2 Addendum. We're now doing carrots inside of carrots, inside of carrots, inside of a line.
Richard Normally, it's about 45 minutes to 60 minutes, and this one's about an hour 20. But I thought this was interesting, and I'm glad you did.
Gerrit Normally, Richard's trying to tackle me. If we get anywhere near 40 minutes, that's it. That's all we need. Stop talking. I'm in the middle of a testimony. And I really believe Richard's like, that's it. Cut it. I do want to thank everyone for listening. I know that not every topic appeals to everybody, and our humor appeals to nobody, and that sometimes we're boring, and sometimes we're too... we're having too much fun, and other times we're too serious. And frankly, we get criticisms on every single side of the fence, so it's impossible to react solely to the criticisms. But, as Richard pointed out earlier in the podcast, part of the point of this is to help people build their faith in the Gospel. By going through some of these historical events, answering some of these questions, the sincere hope is that you can, in your life, not only find it interesting, but hopefully feel the Holy Spirit speak to your heart and tell you, in a greater degree than it already has, that Joseph Smith really and truly was a prophet of God.
Gerrit I have a testimony that this is God's true Church. President Nelson is a prophet of God, and I am grateful to the prophet Joseph Smith because of him I know who Jesus is. I know who my Father in heaven is. I know what my purpose on this earth is, and I know what to expect in the next life. And that precious truth is beyond any possible price. It changes literally everything. And so I'm grateful that you've joined us with this. I hope you'll still come back, even for Moroni Addendum Part 10. And I just want to thank you so much for being a part of this with us.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.

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There's no possible way that this person joined the church in Wisconsin. I know I've been there.

GerritBanter

All the trifecta, the holy trinity of songs you can't have with a brand new investigator. They did all three.

GerritBanter

Yeah, because really there should be about two and a half million less listens.

GerritBanter

You know what? Moroni is worth it.

GerritBanter

Does that mean it didn't happen? Absolutely not. That wouldn't prove anything.

GerritInsight

You're passing a lot of exits to get to that part.

RichardBanter

But the fact that it's not in a contemporary record also doesn't prove that it's false.

GerritInsight

I mean, LeDucs don't live that long. We usually have a heart attack around early 70s.

RichardBanter

President Nelson is a prophet of God, and I am grateful to the prophet Joseph Smith because of him I know who Jesus is.

GerritInsight

More from this episode

Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.

Claim check

What critics say, and what the episode found
Moroni dedicating the Manti Temple site is a well-documented event.
Orson Hyde taught that Moroni is America's permanent guardian angel.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.

Take it to class

Ready to copy into a lesson or a text

D&C 27 says Moroni holds the keys of the stick of Ephraim; he's more than the angel on the steeple.

The Manti Temple story rests on one man's report of a private conversation with Brigham Young; it can't be proven, but a missing record doesn't prove a story false either.

When you quote a pioneer sermon, read all of it; Orson Hyde's angel-of-America speech turns into a warning about how the nation treated the Saints.

Gerrit's closing testimony: because of Joseph Smith, we know who Jesus is, who our Father in Heaven is, and what to expect in the next life.

Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.

Banter bin

The running jokes, for people who skip ahead
The Moroni seriesMoroni Addendum, also called Moroni Part 6, at last; a listener family wants addenda to outnumber the parts, and Gerrit invites listeners back for Moroni Addendum Part 10 (1:20, 20:27, 22:30, 1:21:04).
The only true missionJeff joined the Church in Wisconsin, which makes him a unicorn or a liar; he was Gerrit's ward mission leader in Kenosha and later Angie's high school teacher (3:09, 3:14, 12:02).
Co-op? What is this?Investigators arrive on a Sunday with Praise to the Man, If You Could Hie to Kolob and O My Father (6:59, 8:17, 9:56).
Top five listsRichard wants lists; his top hymns are Press Forward Saints and O My Father (4:27, 8:10, 8:12).
Angry GerritBecky isn't the only fan; the last episode was a fever dream (18:56, 19:04, 20:03).
Rex's elders quorum presidentChecking in 18 minutes before the topic starts (11:04, 18:43).
How Rare a Possession"Burn the book! Repent of your stoneness!" and Vincenzo di Francesca in the same 1968 Improvement Era (24:05, 24:09, 24:40).
Season 38Rigdon's emails are all about polygamy, and he types on a Spanish keyboard (14:39, 14:41, 14:51).
Passing a lot of exitsMocking the Manti story is like driving the Pan-American Highway to Tierra del Fuego (36:57, 37:16).
TypecastingMatthew Broderick is always Ferris, Harrison Ford is Indiana Jones in Star Wars, and Jeff Goldblum became a mathematician (49:30, 50:03, 50:19).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

Your question could be next week’s episode
Questions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
Go deeperWhere to read more.

Go deeper

Deep dives the episode points toward
Read D&C 27 and list every angelic minister and the keys each one holds (20:30).
The Millennial Star account of the 1888 Manti Temple dedication and Heber C. Kimball's prophecy about the quarry (27:26).
Orson Hyde's full July 4, 1854 address in the Journal of Discourses, and Latter-day Saint views of the nation in the 1850s (44:32).
The runaway officials of 1851 and early Utah territory's conflicted relationship with the federal government (57:17).
SOT Litner · S3E52.