Manslaughter or Accident - A Baptism Tragedy

Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.

Gerrit Hi, welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.

Richard Hello, Gerrit. In this week's podcast, we're going to help Louise answer a question to a board game she played with her family.

Gerrit Probably a long time ago.

Richard Probably a long time ago.

Gerrit Do we still have the ability to help her win?

Richard Well, if she goes back and plays again, I think that she will. I think Standard of Truth podcast, where we help give you cheat answers to LDS games that you play on family night.

Gerrit I believe on a previous episode, we did give the cheat codes to both Contra and Super C.

Richard We did. But before we get to an answer to a question from the game Blast from the Past, fun for Latter-day Saint families.

Gerrit Well, it seems like when you have to put that third caveat on, it may not be as fun as people think it is.

Richard Yeah. No, we're telling you. No, it's fun. We're gonna read a couple of emails. The Phebe Draper mailbag. This one comes to us from Steven. Thank you for doing this podcast. I really appreciate it. Oh, I'm a listener in North Dakota. When you talked about how North Dakota, when you talked about North Dakota and how unpopulated it is, you guys made me laugh. It's true. Thanks again. Thank you, Steven.

Gerrit We appreciate it.

Richard Yeah.

Gerrit Between you and Jed, I mean, there's only two people who live in North Dakota, and now both of them are listeners. This is great.

Richard Yeah.

Gerrit Between you and Jed, I mean, there's only two people who live in North Dakota, and now both of them are listeners. This is great.

Richard That's right. This next one comes to us from Rick. Cost of premium content. I have a question. If I decide to subscribe to your premium content, does the $9.99 per month get access to all premium content podcasts, or would I have to pay $9.99 per month for each of the three premium podcasts you have?

Gerrit Well, we really should have thought about it that way.

Richard We should have.

Gerrit Yeah. I feel like we've missed an opportunity, and this is the only reason I have a business. Well, ABD. If he was PhD, we would have had that taken care of.

Richard Yes, that's true. If it's a separate price for each podcast, you're Servants of Satan.

Gerrit Wow, that turned quickly. I love your podcast. You could go to H. Very great.

Richard Just kidding. But if so, are there any samples to help me decide which podcast I would like to subscribe to? If not, you really are Servants of Satan. Joking again, sorta. Thanks in advance. I really love you guys and the work you're doing. Keep it up. So that is a good point, by the way. It is just one for all of the excellent premium content.

Gerrit If you sign up for the premium subscription, then each week when one of the three premium streams drops.

Richard On Monday. Well, except on Apple, we drop it Sunday night. It takes a minute.

Gerrit Things drop at different times.

Richard It's a whole thing.

Gerrit But a different premium one will drop each week, and you'll have access to it. You'll see it in your feed. If you have Apple, you'll see drop into your feed these premium ones that you just won't be able to access because it has a lock on it unless you hit the subscribe button on it.

Richard Right. So Spotify for Android users, Apple for Apple users.

Gerrit I feel like we're doing this before we eat and this is showing. Yeah.

Richard True. I'm hungry. So, but it is a good idea actually. I think we should do something where we give a little snippet of the premium. What we would prefer is that you pay for the year then you subscribe and you're like, oh, I have the buyer's remorse.

Gerrit We'd love it if you, if they're a 10 year plan where they could buy it for 10 years. And then sometime in next month, we stop producing them.

Richard Well, then we really truly would be servants of Satan.

Gerrit Yeah. I like how we started out good.

Richard As Rick says.

Gerrit There was nothing in between. God created multiple kingdoms in the afterlife for a reason. So you could go not directly to.

Richard But it is a good idea to get an idea of the, some of the stuff, the condemn to repeat it, which is kind of history in general, focused on early American history right now. Joseph Smith and the Restoration, that's kind of a chronological podcast that we started with Paul.

Gerrit Yeah. We were going to start with Abraham, but we decided we wanted to.

Richard So yeah, January was Paul, February was Great Heresies. We're literally not going to get to Joseph Smith till 2025.

Gerrit We talk about him in every episode.

Richard Yeah, we mentioned his name.

Gerrit We were like, hey, Joseph Smith existed.

Richard And then Holy Places from Our Past, AKA Crinkling Leaves. We're in Harmony right now, a little bit about that. Harmony is going to be a three, four, 17 quarter.

Gerrit There's a lot that happens in Harmony. I mean, there's a lot that happens in a lot of those New York sites. So we wouldn't do them justice if we were just like, making the crinkling leaves sound and then walking away.

Richard So that is that. Anyway, thank you so much, Rick, for the great question.

Gerrit And the answer is, if you sign up for one, you get them all, which we're sorry.

Richard And then we have another, this email comes to us from Matt. Hi Richard. So the subject is question for Richard only, which is the best way to get your email read on the podcast is because I'm a huge ego maniac. And while I contribute almost nothing to this podcast, pretending that I do by sending me emails is, it sustains me.

Gerrit It really is though. If you want to cut through, I mean, look, cause we get way, way, way more emails than we can read on the air.

Richard First of all, thank you very much.

Gerrit Mostly because of profanity, but also like there's just too many of them and there's not enough time. And so if you want to cut to the front of the line, you address it to Richard only.

Richard But look, first I'm going to read this email, but Matt, I'm not an idiot. I know exactly what you're doing, which is very funny by the way. It's well played.

Gerrit I feel like this is the adult version of what did your mom say?

Richard Well, so question for Richard only. Hi Richard, I love the podcast. My question for you only is, would you ask Dr. Dirkmaat to share his thoughts about the evolution of how we understand the priesthood generally, the organization and policies, and any major differences from the early restoration to today regarding application of priesthood principles? Thank you so much. Thanks so much to both of you for doing this podcast. It's the only thing that matters to me. Well, thank you very much, Matt.

Gerrit So we will probably dig deeper into that topic at a future podcast. Part of the problem is, a question like this is, how has our understanding of priesthood changed over the course of time? Well, like a lot. You know, I mean, so that would actually require multiple podcast bars, but let me just briefly answer that before we move on to our main topic. It is always the case that the most natural human thing, most natural thing, I mean, outside of, you know, you wanna eat food and drink water and breathe air, is to assume that the way things are is the way they've always been. Now, I'm gonna guess that most of our listeners, or Litners, or Litners, outside of the few that are, you know, being forced to listen to us as their mom drives and they're the baby in the car seat, right, from our great listener in New York.

Gerrit Most of them are, you know, the three-hour church was an integral part of your entire life. You need to realize that already, already my daughter, who's only nine, she doesn't really remember three-hour church. And she kind of remembers that we used to go longer. Right. But not really.

Richard Right.

Gerrit So when she's an adult, she won't remember it at all. So think about how, think about how much three-hour church was to you, what a big part of your life that was, how many times you, you know, looked forward to stake conference because it was only two hours. I want everyone listening to think about that, that there was a time in their life that they looked forward to stake conference because it was only two hours. Right? Yeah. I mean, well, you're in a bishop breakdown, so you always look forward to whatever you don't have to do. But, so I won't have to like read any callings or anything, okay. So, that's the hardest thing when you're covering things like this that are very personal, very, you know, liturgical. There are things that we do in our worship every day, you know, phrases we use, language we use. It's easy to always assume that the way we do things now is the way we've always done them.

Gerrit And yet, we know throughout our life that all kinds of things have changed with the way we understand all kinds of aspects of the Church, from the temple ceremony to the threefold mission of the Church. Remember, we used to have our little breakout sessions in elders quorum, you know, for the threefold mission of the Church. I think it's important to understand, and we touched on this a little bit when we talked about Peter, James and John last, a few podcasts ago. We will develop terminologies for things that they didn't initially have. And then through further revelation, they will receive understanding of the different levels of those. I mean, we already talked about this, but a perfect example is there's no bishops when the Church is founded. So literally, the highest office of the Aaronic Priesthood doesn't exist when the Church is organized. So when we say, does our understanding change over time?

Gerrit Well, yeah. The highest office of the Aaronic Priesthood isn't a part of the Church's foundation. It comes by revelation shortly thereafter, but they didn't have it before. And it really is the case in almost any of these. I mean, you know, it's so interesting to see the evolution of things like, say, the high priests. Again, I'm going to guess that all of our listeners that are cognizant of the difference between, you know, circles and rectangles, remember when there was a high priest group and when there was an elders' group. That's such a recent change. But for all of our lives, and all of our parents' lives, and all of our grandparents' lives, the high priest group was a completely separate organization from the elders quorum, obviously both working in the stake for the priesthood.

Richard There is, as you bring up high priest group, there's one of my favorite stories from President Faust who tells a story about his high priest group and his ward. He was attending a state conference, he'd open it up for questions, and someone asked him when the Second Coming of Jesus would be. And President Faust said, I don't know, but if you'd like to join me in my high priest group, there's three or four men in there that could probably tell you when it would be.

Gerrit Well, now I love President Faust. President Faust was my favorite. I mean, just one of the people who really helped me gain a testimony, honestly, is a young man listening to President Faust. So if you haven't listened to any President Faust lately, go dig up some old conference talks and listen. But today, he would probably say, just turn on your TikTok or your YouTube. And you've got all kinds of people who are more than willing to tell you. Angels in heaven don't know, but you know who's a little bit better than the angels? Me. The height of arrogance that I just happen to know when it's going to happen. And then they try to get out of like, well, I didn't say I knew the day and hour. I just knew the month. But the angels still don't, right? You're still one up of the angels on that? Anyway, I think that back to the high priest group point, when the church was initially organized, when the high priesthood, that office of high priest is first revealed in June of 1831, they don't even seem to see it as a separate office.

Gerrit And we can tell this from some of the minutes of the early church meetings. And the minutes of the meetings, they would list deacons, teachers, priests. And remember back then, it was adult men who were the teachers, right? You know, so and so might only be a teacher in the church, and he's 50 years old, and he's always a teacher. That democratization of everyone getting the priesthood offices, all of them, and then everyone being ordained an elder, is something that happens later. So one of the biggest changes that you'll see, especially as you go through the history of the church, is we go from having a priesthood that essentially all male members are getting some type of priesthood office, to one in which all of the male members are essentially progressing through priesthood offices to at least become an elder, to the Melchizedek Priesthood.

Gerrit Anyway, in these first meetings, the way it was listed on the meeting books was, elders and then elders with the high priesthood. Now many of us use the term high priesthood to mean the Melchizedek Priesthood. We use it synonymously today to mean Melchizedek Priesthood. Well, they clearly don't. When they are saying it, they mean the office of high priest that was revealed at that June 1831 conference. And you'll notice that they weren't a separate quorum. It's elders meeting with elders with the high priesthood. So really, in some ways, President Nelson's kind of moved us back to where we were at the early founding of the church. You can see just with that example how much change there is. Now change sometimes really bothers people. You know, the Internet is all a Twitter about the recent changes that have been made in the temple ceremonies.

Gerrit Very, you know, very kind of people to decide that our sacred ceremonies are their prerogative to share with everyone. Really appreciate that. Really shows a high-class individual, by the way. But second of all, it's like the one aspect of Protestantism that keeps infecting Mormonism, like a disease that we just can't shed, is this Protestant belief that there cannot be any change to truth. Now, why does that exist? It exists because Protestants believe that all truth about God comes from the Bible. All truth. Well, the Bible isn't changing, is it? So that means interpretations might change, your intelligence level might change, your studying of the Bible might change. But since all truth is in the Bible, there can't be a further revelation of truth because we already have all truth.

Gerrit And Latter-day Saints, we very often get into that mode. I mean, how often does someone say something like, well, if the temple ceremony is different today than it was in Joseph Smith's time, then that just proves Joseph Smith's a false prophet. What? I mean, what is this rat? Where are you setting up this terms of the way that you have made this decision? So you belong to a church that believes in continuing revelation, correct? Yes. And you belong to a church that specifically teaches that God speaks to people according to their own light and knowledge. Yes. Well, that light and knowledge changes over the course of time as God gives further revelation, correct? Yes. The needs we have changes over time as circumstances change, as cultures change, as the church becomes a worldwide church. That need changes, doesn't it? Yes. So why in the world would the way God gives us instruction on covenants also not change?

Gerrit Again, I understand if you're a five-point Calvinist-Presbyterian, why you have a real problem with that. We aren't that. The best part about being a Latter-day Saint is we believe in continuing revelation. And so this fear that somehow a change to the way we perform some of our rituals or the way we utilize priesthood or the way those offices are spelled out, it's this irrational fear born out of a cultural ideology that surrounds us all. And that cultural ideology, and it's cultural meaning you don't ever think about it. You don't have to have arguments about it. It's something that's kind of indelibly imprinted in your American psyche. And that is things about God can't ever change. Things about God can't ever change. Because we're all descendants, well, our country is a descendants of a bunch of Puritans that landed on Plymouth Rock who all believe that.

Gerrit Now, of course, I'm Dutch, but we were even more Calvinist, right? We were like ridiculous Calvinists. The Dutch Reform Church was the only one of these Puritan churches that had as a, sorry, Calvinist churches that had as a article of faith a belief in double predestination. Others maintain double predestination as a kind of, well, I mean, so to speak to that, right? Predestination is the only way that you're going to be saved is that God gives you the gift of faith because God knows everything. God already knows who he's going to give the gift of faith to in order to save them, right? So that makes sense. If God knows everything, then God knows at the moment he creates you whether or not he's going to give you the gift of faith. Now, that is a positive view of predestination, right? So God gives you the gift of faith, and therefore you are saved. But it's not hard to get to the corollary of that, right?

Gerrit If God chooses who he's going to save, and God's well aware if he doesn't intervene, you're going to a barbecue that is eternal in nature, and with the worst guest list available, well, then God is also at the very least by not choosing you, choosing you to go to hell. This active choice of who God is going to condemn is something that even hardcore Calvinists, even people like RC. Sproul in American Calvinist theology who are very conservative Calvinists will say, well, we don't believe that. We don't believe that God is actively choosing who's going to hell. It's just that we're all so depraved, we're all going to hell, and then God chooses to save some of us, which he shouldn't. I don't really think that was the answer to your question.

Richard Yeah, I think so, essentially, yes, thank you for your question.

Gerrit Matt, sorry about that.

Richard Thank you for asking me to ask Gerrit to answer your question.

Gerrit And I think the reason why the answer was so bad is if I'm going to be answering a question that's really to Richard, I mean, there's so many layers.

Richard That's true. Well, thank you, regardless. Thank you for the kind email. It was very funny, and thank you for all the emails. We read them all, we apologize. We don't have a chance to get to all of them as we record. One other thing, shameless promotion, the tour, the Standard of Truth tour that is going to be June 4th through the 11th. Oh, geez. June 5th through the 11th.

Gerrit Richard isn't quite sure when we're going.

Richard It's going to be in August?

Gerrit If Richard is on this tour with us. We have had several people make inquiries about that, and we do have still some openings. We were filled up, but we had a large group need to cancel for some family reasons. And so we actually do have some spaces available if you're interested.

Richard Yes. So I'm going out on the 4th. That's the reason.

Gerrit Well, frankly, at this point, if Richard is on the bus, everyone's got a bonus, because last time he's like, it's on June 2nd, it's July 35th. I mean, he's making up dates. We've already paid for all this stuff. So we know when we're going, but Richard is still like, what is that, August?

Richard June 5th through June 11th, we're playing the hits, going to starting in Boston, doing some American history stuff, and then through Sharon and Harmony, Fayette, Palmyra.

Gerrit And all those details are on the website under the tours tab. So we'd love to have you join us, and we're already excited for those who are going to be with us. I'm just excited. I mean, how awesome is it that Rachel's mom is going with us?

Richard Yeah, we're going to make a shirt. It's going to say, I'm Rachel's mom.

Gerrit Yeah, and then should we just make a bunch of other shirts and say, I'm with Rachel's mom?

Richard I think that's what they're paying for. That's what they want. So last question that we have here comes to us from Louise. And they were playing a game, Blast from the Past. And they received a question that they wanted some validation for in the game.

Gerrit So I'm assuming she got the question wrong. She's like, so this is all just... I answered this and they said that that answer didn't count.

Richard Well, if it's anything like a LeDuc family game night, it gets pretty aggressive.

Gerrit Yeah, very quickly.

Richard So this is November 23rd, 1843. I know when that date is. I don't know when the tour is, but I do know this date.

Gerrit Yeah, that's good.

Richard On this day, Mrs. Cartwright drowned during her baptism. Weeks earlier, she was so furious at her husband's baptism, she said, I hope to God, if ever I am such a fool, that I'll be drowned in the attempt.

Gerrit Yeah, that's good.

Richard On this day, Mrs. Cartwright drowned during her baptism. Weeks earlier, she was so furious at her husband's baptism, she said, I hope to God, if ever I am such a fool, that I'll be drowned in the attempt.

Gerrit Ouch.

Richard Did that occur? Did that happen? That's a great line, by the way. Absolutely tremendous. Well done, Mrs. Cartwright.

Gerrit I'm drowned in the attempt. That sounds terrible.

Richard That sounds funny. Terrible. By funny, it'd be terrible.

Gerrit It is a really tragic event, and honestly, this seems like it would be a very rare occurrence, but it's actually not terribly rare. I mean, today, if someone is drowning in their baptism in a meeting house, someone's doing that deliberately. I don't know. I mean, I guess maybe grandpa's baptizing you when he passes out or has a stroke while he's doing it and just falls on your body.

Richard Yeah, I haven't heard of any drownings in church baptisms recently.

Gerrit Right. But there are no meeting houses with fonts, and so the only place that you can really do this is in standing bodies of water. Well, very few people live right next to the ocean, plus the ocean's not exactly fun to go out in with the waves crashing and everything. So most of the time, they try to find small streams or rivers where you can kind of get off to the side and do it. But as a Latter-day saint is well aware, you need more than like four inches of water to perform an immersion baptism. I mean, the more water that's in that font, the way easier it is to do, right? It's easier to get everybody under. I mean, I'm sure that there are people listening to us that have tried to attempt baptisms either in a font or in a stream or in a lake where they were not nearly deep enough. And you have to like basically bang the person's head on the ground underneath in order to get them baptized.

Richard We actually had this situation happen in Peru. We were down in Peru with a neighbor of ours from Peru, and our kids were doing baptisms, and my son, he's a monster of a kid, he's 6'5, and he was being baptized by a friend of ours' son who was much, much smaller, and the Peruvian font was not like the bountiful temple font.

Gerrit Right, so the Peruvian font could not handle a gentleman of his carriage.

Richard Yes, he's not in heft, but in Willard Richards' general, you know.

Gerrit How many guns does your son have hidden inside his waistcoat? That's my question.

Richard He's a 6'5 kid, and so he was trying to be baptized in the Lima Peru temple font, and he had to try and squeeze him into a ball, and just go down, and he's literally pushing down on him to get him under the water. It was very, it was wonderful.

Gerrit Yeah, it was a beautiful experience.

Richard I enjoyed it. It was very funny.

Gerrit Very nice. Well, so the way that you would do this for most people is they would go to one of the larger bodies of water. And remember, people don't have cars here, so anything that's really far away is a considerable difficulty to get to. And so rivers are often the place where people are baptized because rivers, most towns in both England and in America follow the rivers or the coastline because the biggest issue in early America, aside from the fact that no one has deodorant, we'll get past that one, but the biggest issue is how do I get my crops to market? And the only means of getting, I mean, think about it. You've got 40 acres of wheat. How many of those bushels do you think you can fit on the back of your wagon if you own a wagon? You can't even get one acre's worth of wheat on a single wagon.

Gerrit So how are you going to get the other 40 acres to market, right? The rivers and the ocean and lakes at times, especially around the Great Lakes, are the means of conveyance for large amounts of things. And so towns in England and in, as English colonists settle in the Americas, they tend very much to be on the coastline where it's easy access to a port. And then as you go interior, you'll notice that most of those towns end up on a river. I mean, think about just the interior of the United States today. How many major cities in the interior of the United States are either on the Missouri River, the Mississippi River, or the Ohio River? It's like much of like the AFC North, right? It's right along the river, right? Right along there.

Gerrit But that means that these rivers are usually fairly close to where people live, and that's why a lot of absences take place. The problem with a river is rivers are very, very changeable. I mean, ask any of our listeners who live next to the Mississippi River the difference between the Mississippi River in flood stage and the difference between the Mississippi River in drought. And one is a catastrophic threat to your house and home, and the other is a catastrophic threat to livelihoods because the water is so low. And that meant that early missionaries often had to battle the elements, breaking up ice sometimes to get in there, but also the currents. And oftentimes, the missionaries themselves, they're not from the place where they're trying to baptize people.

Gerrit I'm from Detroit. I don't know anything about leads and the water bodies around here. You're trusting the people there to say, oh yeah, go out here, and it's not that bad. And I would say that almost anyone who's ever gotten into a river, in fact, really anyone who's ever gotten into a river, I'm not advocating anyone get into a river. We do have fonts now. But if you ever do get into a river, I think one of the most surprising things to people is even when the water looks completely placid, if you get into that river, you will feel the pull of the current. That even though that rivers are always moving with greater force than it appears that they are when you're standing on the banks.

Richard Even creeks or where we're from, cricks.

Gerrit Yeah, yeah, cricks. We used to go have our father and son camp out every year at Fall Creek Campground.

Richard Ours was at Silver Creek Plunge.

Gerrit Yeah. If you're from Idaho, you apparently believe that the word creek is spelled C-R-I, and I'm not even going to say C-K, probably just C-R-I-K as far as I know. Spell creek, yeah. Could you spell creek for me? Could you use that in a sentence? C-R-I-K, yeah, I mean, that's anyway. It was a great place. We had tons of fun. So that's what's happened here. And the story, the reason why, you know, the people creating this game were able to pull it out, the reason why it's an easily accessible story is it comes from the history of the church. It's included in the history of the church and published when that's published, coming from that time period. So let me share the story from the history of the church so you can know where they pulled that card from. And then what I did is I went and I gathered up several of the English newspaper accounts of this event, because this actually was a pretty scandalous event in England.

Gerrit And I'm going to share that with you. I mean, probably you'll be asleep by then.

Richard Yep, our wives are.

Gerrit Angie's asleep for sure.

Richard Yep, Becky is as well.

Gerrit Yep. She kind of moved when I said that.

Richard She's asleep.

Gerrit Kind of moved. Okay, so this is from History of the Church. Jonathan Pugmire Sr. and Thomas Cartwright, discharged by Judge Whitehead at Chester, England. The judge would not allow the cost of the prosecution or witnesses to be paid by the Crown. It was very evident that the Church of England ministers were at the bottom of the machinations and were sorely discomfited at the results. I insert the statement of the unfortunate occurrence given by Jonathan Pugmire Jr. Okay, so this account is coming from the son of the man who was part of this indictment. So Jonathan Pugmire Sr. and Thomas Cartwright were actually arrested in conjunction with this baptismal drowning. And we're going to learn all about that, or we'll already be done.

Richard Great question, Louise. This is a lot of fun.

Gerrit Yeah, I mean, Richard sees my eyes light up.

Richard I've never seen anyone so excited about... Baptismal drownings.

Gerrit Baptismal drownings are really, you know, it's Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. It's townships.

Richard It's rice tariffs, and it's baptismal drowning.

Gerrit Baptismal drownings, they're my second go-to. They're my second go-to. Anyway, this is the account. Thomas Cartwright was baptized November 6, 1843, unknown to his wife, by Elder Jonathan Pugmire, Senior. So remember, this account is coming from Jonathan Pugmire, Jr. So his son is telling the story of what happened with his dad. So that's gonna color... I mean, essentially, this is dad writing a missionary home, a letter home to his family, telling them what happened, and then his son relating that event to someone else. And he went to Pugmire's house that same evening and inquired to know where Tom, her husband, was. Mrs. Pugmire answered that she did not know. After this, Mrs. Cartwright went out and met them returning from the waters of baptism and shouted, well, she uses an expletive here. Am I? Darn you.

Gerrit But not darn. I'll dip ye, and expressing her determination to have revenge on the Pugmire family, she used a great deal of very bad language, some of which I had to edit here. Some of the neighbors, not belonging to the church, advised her not to speak too much against Latter-day saints as she might yet become convinced of the truth of their doctrines and be baptized herself. She replied, I hope to God if I'm ever such a fool that I'll be drowned in the attempt. A short time afterward, in consequence of her husband talking to her about the truths of the gospel, she consented to go to Pugmire's house and to hear for herself. After attending a few times, she told her husband that she had a dream and what she saw, it was a fearful thing to fall in the hands of a living God and requested to be baptized. Mrs. Pugmire talked with her, reminding her of her harsh expression. She confessed, I am very sorry, and as my conduct is known to all in this neighborhood, I do not wish to have my baptism public, but I want to have it done privately.

Gerrit And I wish no female to accompany me to the water but you. So only Mrs. Pugmire is going to go. On the night of her baptism, November 23, 1843, she was conducted to the water by her husband and Elder Pugmire, witnessed by Mrs. Pugmire and James Moore. Now notice one of the reasons why this is kind of a cool story. Who's the witness to this baptism? Mrs. Pugmire, right? Previous to this time, Elder Pugmire had baptized eight or ten persons in the same place. It's very interesting, eight or ten, not eight or nine or nine or ten. You know, give or take two souls.

Richard Well, so they're kind of doing that the same way that I know when the tour is, essentially.

Gerrit Yeah, if the Pugmires were leading this tour, it would be, look, it's June 10th, 9th, 45th. Who cares? You're coming, you're going to go to Boston. It's going to be awesome. Going to see where the Sox play. Just come. Anyway, on arriving to the water, they found that the creek had overflowed its banks, and in consequence of a heavy rain which had fallen that day, Elder Pugmire examined the banks and concluded that he could attend to the ordinance without going into the regular bed of the creek. So they're seeing, you know, it's so flooded that there's actually part of the area that isn't usually under water that's now there. And oh, I don't even need to go into the middle of it. There's so much water. It was afterwards discovered that the water had undermined the bank, and it gave way under their feet. So they're trying to go out there and it's collapsing on them the whole time. Meantime, Thomas Cartwright leapt into the creek and seized a hold of his wife's petticoat. But the water carried... Oh, sorry, sorry.

Gerrit I skipped and read the wrong paragraph. On arriving in the water, they found that it undermined it, right? This was done, but on raising Mrs. Cartwright, so they baptize her, on raising her as they were walking out, they both went under the water. So apparently they slipped in the mud and in the water trying to get out after. So she's baptized. The water's kind of rushing pretty quick. They both slip and fall into the mud and the muck in the water. It was afterwards determined that the water had undermined the bank and it gave way under their feet. Meantime, Thomas Cartwright leapt into the creek and seized hold of his wife's petticoat. So he's trying to save his wife. He grabs her petticoat, but the water carried her off and left the garment in his hand. And so she gets caught in the current. He's pulling the clothes, and the clothes actually tear off of her, and she gets carried down the water. That's terrifying. Yeah, I mean, I hate the fact that even, you know, we joke around a little bit because this is, I mean, what a horrific event, right?

Gerrit James Moore got hold of Elder Pugmire. So now Pugmire's going down the water too. James Moore got hold of Elder Pugmire by the hair on his head. So he's going down the stream to him. They grab his hair. Now, what if Elder Pugmire had been bald? Yeah, that's it all. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

Richard And at this time, by the way, how many people are competent swimmers in the...

Gerrit So almost nobody, so look, the YMCA doesn't exist. Just so everyone's aware, swimming lessons don't really exist. Public pools don't exist. So look, depending on where you're from, especially if you are engaged in the fishing industry or if you're someone who works on the sea, you likely have some modicum of understanding how to dog paddle.

Richard I mean, a river, you could be a very competent swimmer and it doesn't matter.

Gerrit Exactly. But the general level of people's ability to swim is so much less in the 19th century. Even today, even today, there is a gigantic gap between people who are from first world countries and people who are from third world countries and their ability to swim. Why? Well, because swimming costs money. You have to pay for lessons, and not everyone has an extra $500 laying around like, hey, we could buy bread this week or Bill could learn how to swim. So it really is kind of a real gap, even in today's world, between the middle and upper classes and the lower classes in the United States. If you are a member of the lower class, it is far more likely, even today, that you don't really know how to swim, because of that. Even with all the programs that now exist to try to help people to do it. So yeah, most people are not competent swimmers, and in a flooded river, however competent you think you are, first of all, this is an English river, okay?

Gerrit The water temperature on this is not going to be like a Bahamian island. This is going to be frigid, and you're hitting that water, and it's rushing.

Richard Just by quick search of drowning deaths by population, you have Africa and Asia hugely overwhelmed with it. You have North America, Mexico, US. Canada, very, very low. Europe, very, very low. Northern Africa, very low. Australia, very low. Southern South America, very low. But the rest of the world is, it's still a major problem.

Gerrit Yeah, I mean, in places where you have high poverty rates, you're going to have, and well, and access to water. I mean, it's not a lot of drowning in the Sahara Desert itself, but it really is, it's a huge tragedy. It's been a tragedy in human existence, you know, from time that we've had recorded history. And here it's this special tragedy where it's this, someone who's desperately trying to join the kingdom of God on earth, and because of an accident, you know, she dies, and he almost dies, the missionary, as well as her husband, who tries to jump in to save her. Well, so he grabbed the hair of his head, and they dragged him out. Moore ran to the village to give an alarm, so he went to go try to get people to help. Oh no, she's been carried away. On his return, he found that Cartwright, about 100 yards from where he leapt in. So Cartwright jumped in to try to get his wife, remember, and he tried to pull her back on her clothes, and her clothes ripped off, and she went further down, and he's now even 100 yards down the creek himself with his head above water, but holding on to a stump of a tree.

Gerrit So he's desperately hanging on to a tree with the water going by him, and at least according to this account, he said that he could not have remained in that situation even one minute longer. George Nolan swam the stream and then got him out, but his wife was not found until the following day when she was found about 200 yards from where the accident occurred, standing upon her feet with her head above water because the stream had fallen about two feet. So you have this raging water that night. Her body comes to settle in some of that mud with her feet first, and then as the water comes down, her head eventually appears over the water. So it must have been a frightening, horrific discovery. I feel like now we are doing investigation discovery at this point. I feel like I need to be like, but nobody knew what happened. That kind of, yeah, anyway. So the reason why this becomes kind of a big deal is on Pugmire reaching home, a Church of England minister had him arrested and dragged from his family that same evening and kept in custody of a constable until a coroner's inquest was held on the body of the deceased.

Gerrit After she was buried, Cartwright was arrested. So his wife dies. They arrest him. They were both sent to Chester jail to wait their trial before the judge. They were in confinement six weeks and three days before their trial came on. The judge, Whitehead, remarked to the jury that baptism was an ordinance of our religion and that it was a mere accident that had occurred. He advised the jurymen to be very careful of how they examined the case before them and that it was an ordinance instituted by God at the moment that the Lord spoke by the voice of thunder, which shook the courthouse. So now there's this miraculous thing that he's saying happened that the judge says, listen, this is not an intentional drowning because you're going to see as I read these newspaper articles, what these men are charged with will make you go, oh, so maybe the court systems were a bit corrupt. I mean, it's obviously just an accident, right?

Gerrit It's obvious that this is an accident. It's obvious that this guy's desperately trying to save his wife who's now drowned from this flooded waterway. And by the way, if you read a 19th century newspaper, there are drownings in them in almost, I don't want to say in almost all of them, but if you read one that gives account of deaths, drownings are incredibly common. They're incredibly common, again, because water is so unpredictable. People aren't strong swimmers, and yet they have to ship their goods on the water. They have to cross these streams. Many of them have to go to the water to draw water, to have water in their houses. So they have lots of interactions with untamed waterways, but not very much experience actually swimming. And so there's just a lot. I mean, there's drowning deaths even today. I'm not saying there's not, but... Let me finish off what's in the history of the church.

Gerrit That miracle is that the judge says, you know, baptism is part of their religion, and there's a strike of thunder that happens right at that time, you know, and everyone's like, oh, you know. He advised the prisoners to be very careful in the future and to select a proper place for the performance of that rite. They were then set free. During their imprisonment, Pugmeier had a vision in which he was informed that they would be liberated, and he told Cartwright to be of good cheer, for they certainly would be acquitted. Of course, Cartwright has lost his wife, so I don't know how good of a cheer he's going to be. So this is interesting for a lot of reasons. One, it's this example of, you know, how treacherous baptism could be. As I said, there's actually another case of another man drowning in an attempt to baptize in England just a few weeks earlier than this. This man is not in, he doesn't face the same court system. But let me, you know, pull up one of our earliest accounts in a newspaper of this event happening.

Gerrit So these are some of these English newspapers that are not terribly friendly disposed towards the Latter-day Saints. I mean, you have to understand, England has a, they have a state church. I mean, they have a state church even today, although they have religious freedom. I'm not saying they don't. But back then, there was still a heavy persecution that took place if you happen to be what was called a non-conformist, meaning someone who was not part of the Church of England, which was the state church. People like Methodists and Quakers were regularly persecuted, legally so, because of their non-conformist views, meaning they were not conforming to the proper dictates of the Church of England. They weren't regular members of the Church of England. Of course, Methodism is going to start inside of the Church of England, but then essentially become a separate branch.

Gerrit So here is one of the first. This is not the first, but it's one of the first, and it gives you an idea of how this was first reported in an English newspaper. Under the title, Fatal Superstition is the title. And this is a newspaper article from the 11th of December, 1843. So this would have been just a week and a half or so after the horrible accident, maybe two weeks after the horrible accident. Of course, word travels a little slowly, but a gross and fatal instance of superstition has occurred in the Cheshire, in Cheshire. Among the laborers of the Grand Junction Railway at Crewe, there are several Mormonites, one of whom, Pugmire, induced his wife by his opportunities to be baptized into the order. So notice already the story is wrong, right? Already the story is incorrect because it's claiming that Pugmire was convincing his wife to get baptized when in fact Pugmire is the person performing the baptism and it's Cartwright's wife who's being baptized.

Gerrit But you'll see. The officiating priest was one Cartwright, a blacksmith. The time was Thursday night, the 23rd of November. It was dark and stormy. The river was swollen with rains and the stream was rapid. Although about to be confined with a fourth child, and that's actually one of the great tragedies here, is that Mrs. Cartwright is actually pregnant. And so it's the loss of her and the child. The woman was stripped almost naked. Now notice how they do that, right? The point is to make this somehow licentious, right? Clearly she's wearing clothing in the baptism. But by using the term stripped almost naked, what does it sound like? It makes it sound like there's some kind of sexual deviance that's going on there. This is a standard anti-Mormon trope. You will actually find it in most anti-Mormon arguments about what happens within Mormonism, to try to find a way to sexualize the Mormon deviance in that regard.

Gerrit She was stripped almost naked and led into the water. The priest happened to lose his hold of her arm and she was carried away in the stream and drowned. The husband went home and told his neighbors what had happened, saying, it was the will of God that she should be drowned, and adding that it was the weakness of her faith that caused it, but he was now satisfied that she was in glory. A coroner's jury returned a verdict of manslaughter against Pugmire and Cartwright, and they had been committed to Chester Castle for trial. So that's one of these early articles explaining what happened. They have the people involved, confused and wrong, and they appear to have some kind of interview with Pugmire and Cartwright, for which we have no source on that, but that they brag, well, obviously God's will that she died. You can tell this is very, I mean, Latter-day Saints are hated in England at the time.

Gerrit The early apostles going to England are going to, they're going to end up converting thousands of people. And it is a, it's something that's in the English newspapers quite a bit because you have thousands of Mormons that are then immigrating from England to the United States. And they provide a very unique element of our, of Latter-day Saint history. In fact, if you look, this is something that's, I think I got a little too excited about that.

Richard No, no, no, no, go on.

Gerrit Because I started to get excited. And then I looked over at Richard and, you know how sometimes you can tell that the person is there but not paying any attention to you? This is how it is most of the time when I'm talking.

Richard But that's, that was, Tell us about, tell us about the, the cobblers that came over and how excited you are about it.

Gerrit The reason why, if you look at a map of immigration by ethnicity in the United States, you know, so how do people, how do people trace their ancestry? That's what I mean. So like, if you look at the ancestry of, of where people trace their, their, their heritage, there's only one state in the United States that is overwhelmingly English, and it's Utah. Like, for instance, vast parts of the Midwest and East are German, from the German migrations, some from Scandinavia, a little bit there, a lot from the Irish, right? So there's a lot of ways that people trace their, their ancestry, but it's this English migrations, this influx of English converts who then get to Nauvoo right before we're chased out of the country, that bring this very English character and heritage to the Latter-day Saints that come to Utah.

Gerrit Now, of course, look, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young are both descended from English colonists as well, but you have this further influx of English conversion, which is a story for a whole other time, and I've obviously spent too much time on it. The glazing over of Richard's eyes continues, and we descend further into podcast doldrums. Here is another newspaper article that is referencing this horrible event, and you can see again how this is being portrayed in the media. In fact, before I do that, let me share with you. I pulled up this other article that talks about someone else who died in a similar way at roughly the same time. So this is coming from January 10th of 1844.

Gerrit And under the title, again, this is a London newspaper. It's called the London Non-Conformist. So you can imagine what type of religious affiliation this newspaper has. If it's a non-conformist newspaper, it means it's essentially anti-Church of England, other religion things. So you think it might be a little bit more positive towards the Latter-day Saints, right? Well, remember that they might not be conforming to the Church of England, but they also think that we're a bunch of heretics. It's like your Protestant friends who are more than willing to join with you to say that there was an apostasy and the Catholic Church has gone off its rocker. But then we'll turn around and let you know what part of hell you're going to be in. At any rate, this one's titled The Mormonites. I always think it's funny that that's how we are. We are often referred to as theites, right? Another person drowned. So this is on the heels of this first drowning. A man named Robert Turner, age 35, and by trade a cutler, having recently embraced the religion of the Mormonites or the Latter-day Saints after preaching at Handsworth Woodhouse on Sunday, the 19th announced that he would attend to the following morning and baptize anyone who believed in the religious principles he professed.

Gerrit In the river Rother near Rotherham. Early next morning, several persons accordingly met him at a place called Fairy Meadow. After praying and singing and being admonished by another preacher from Sheffield, of the necessity of being born of water and of the spirit, or they could not enter into the kingdom of heaven, several of their disciples stripped and Turner plunged into the river, which was deep and swollen by the rains, followed by a collier whom he baptized and who got out safe. Another man then went in, and after being plunged overhead and nearly drowned, also escaped. Notice how they are, you know, referee. It's as if he's baptizing them like he's trying to drown them, but he escaped, thankfully. But Turner, on letting him go, stepped into the deep water and was carried away by the current, and he sank to rise no more. A daily search was made.

Gerrit It was not until Sunday week that the body was found, standing upright with the head out of the water about 25 yards away from the spot where he was drowned. So it's very similar. Again, feet stick in the mud and the rest of the body raises to the top. At the inquest, the jury returned a verdict. So again, there is an arrest that's made of these people for this. The jury returned a verdict of accidental death and the coroner joining them in strongly condemning the rash and inconsiderate conduct of the parties. I did have a chance to glance over multiple other drownings in the newspaper. None of them were anyone being charged with manslaughter. It's only when it's Mormons attempting to baptize people that it's now a manslaughter charge. And so there's that. But anyway, let's go back to our current case at hand with the Pugmires, and let's start here with this.

Gerrit This later newspaper article is going to give a pretty good explanation of everything that happened with the trial. This newspaper gives a pretty full account of this under the title, The Law, Chester Tuesday, January 2nd, the Mormonites. Again, notice how this is this pejorative that is applied to them over and over and over. And they know that they're called Latter-day Saints because they even say, or sometimes called Latter-day Saints. But I know this is going to come as a shock to people of today's world that antagonists are not always as, you know, they don't really show the deference to someone's wishes of what they want to be called that you might think they would. It's a very surprising thing. Normally, I know that everyone else listening interacts with people who only interact with people who aren't of our faith, who are very kind and generous in the way they refer to us. But I digress.

Gerrit Back to the article. Mr. Justice Whiteman, precisely at 9 o'clock, took his seat upon the bench. The court was crowded upon this occasion from the very peculiar nature of the offense with which the prisoners were charged, it having been indicated the previous evening that the trial would proceed with early this morning. So first of all, this is a public spectacle. And notice, it's a lot more people than would normally be there. Because it's Mormons and it's Mormons on trial for manslaughter through their baptismal rights. This is especially a big deal because in England, while you can be baptized into the Church of England by immersion, almost all baptism is being done with infants, the same way that had been done in Catholicism. And so it's done by sprinkling and pouring. It's not being done by immersion. So it makes what the Latter-day saints are doing seem even more different.

Richard That said, though, a sprinkling drowning would be next level.

Gerrit Do we have much record of that? I can imagine, although I did see that YouTube clip of that priest who dropped the baby when he was trying to dump the baby into the little font.

Richard But the baby's fine.

Gerrit I don't have a long-term... I don't know if there's some CTE going on. He dropped the baby pretty hard, but the mom did grab it. That has to be at least... If you've ever stood in a circle doing a baby blessing, there is a little bit... Some people are pretty aggressive rockers in those circles. I don't know if you've ever noticed. I've been in there before, and someone's like... It's as if they're trying to do pull-ups with the baby, and I'm always like, guys, we don't want to launch the baby here. I know that it's fussing a little bit, but just do the prayer.

Richard We just had a baby blessing last week. I attended our niece and nephew, and my wife's family is enormous. Instead of a circle, it was more of an oval. There were 25-something men, and no one was near the baby.

Gerrit I thought you were saying 15 women.

Richard I felt the S. It was the whole thing.

Gerrit Well, they wouldn't be near the baby. So let me go back to reading this. The customer preliminary is finished. Jonathan Pogmore. What's very interesting, in multiple accounts, instead of Pugmire, they must have entered his name in incorrectly into the docket because they spell it P-O-G-M-O-R-E. So they spell it Jonathan Pogmore. And it's not just this article. There's another account and another newspaper that also lists Jonathan Pogmore, which probably makes it easier to see the country.

Richard Yeah, seriously, classic Pogmore.

Gerrit Yeah, who else? Anyway, Jonathan Pogmore, a blacksmith, an officiating minister of the Mormonites, commonly called Latter-day Saints. So again, they know who we are. And Thomas Cartwright, blacksmith also, were placed at the bar charged with the offense of killing and slaying one Sarah Cartwright at Monks Coppenhall in the vicinity of Crewe. The prisoners were decently attired and presented the ordinary appearance of reputable mechanics. So just so you all know, we thought they'd be monsters, but they looked like other people, because they're Mormons. The attorney general for the county, a Palatinate, with whom was Mr. Townsend, then opened the case. The prisoners at the bar were indicted for having feloniously killed and slayed one Sarah Cartwright. But whether from premeditation or negligence, it was for the jury to decide. From the character and tendency of the evidence, the prisoners were adherents to a peculiar sect of religionists called Latter-day Saints, who appeared anxious to carry out the tenets of which they themselves were the professors.

Gerrit One of their tenets was baptism by immersion. And to affect this, after repeated importunities by the prisoner Cartwright, the husband of the deceased, she was induced to accompany them both to the place where her death occurred. On her arrival there, Jonathan Pogmore, who was the officiating priest on that occasion, immersed the deceased several times. So now you have this idea that he's just baptizing her and baptizing her. Kind of seems like he's trying to drown her, actually. You know what? Maybe her foot popped up. I don't know what the...

Richard One of the things that was interesting about this when we were talking about this before is in the game, it said that just a couple of weeks previous, she said essentially that she would rather be drowned than to join the church. And so maybe, is this part of why this is being prosecuted?

Gerrit Well, so we don't have any indication from the actual trial. So this is a record of what's being said by the attorneys at the trial, and no one brings this up at all. The most you get to is that, oh, he really, her husband really said, you gotta do this. But frankly, for those married men out there, if we're going to. Jail for trying to say, oh, come on, please let me watch the football game. I mean, how many people are going to jail? I mean, heck, Richard and I wouldn't be able to keep our betting lines. How would we keep that?

Richard That's a good point. This is going to be after the Super Bowl, Philadelphia minus one and a half. Hit that hard. I think they're going to cover.

Gerrit We already said we are only going to bet.

Richard Take the under on the national anthem. I was wrong about that last week, so I apologize. Even though this is going to be coming out next week, after the Super Bowl. Well, we're recording it before the Super Bowl is being played. So this is going to come out on the Thursday after the Super Bowl.

Gerrit I want to find a parlay of the number of fireworks that will be exploded at half time.

Richard Now that's a degenerate level of game.

Gerrit Well, I guarantee there's somewhere out there who will give it to me.

Richard You know what? Let me look.

Gerrit I'll get our research team on it. At any rate, you can tell that the way this is being presented is they're immersing her multiple times. Now, this is, of course, fairly negative because this is the prosecution here. The deceased struggled violently, right? So this idea is that he's essentially, it sounds like the way it's being presented is that she's being baptized against her will, right? Rather than, I guess I don't even know how you could tell the difference between someone drowning and someone not wanting to be baptized, right? And it was a question for the jury whether it was by careless and negligent act that her death was occurred, whether in fact ordinary caution had been used, it being dusk, so as to constitute a very improper and negligent act. So the very fact that you're baptizing them in the dark, well, then that shows negligence and therefore manslaughter. James Moore, remember James Moore, who helped by grabbing hair in our previous discussion.

Richard You know what? Let me look.

Gerrit I'll get our research team on it. At any rate, you can tell that the way this is being presented is they're immersing her multiple times. Now, this is, of course, fairly negative because this is the prosecution here. The deceased struggled violently, right? So this idea is that he's essentially, it sounds like the way it's being presented is that she's being baptized against her will, right? Rather than, I guess I don't even know how you could tell the difference between someone drowning and someone not wanting to be baptized, right? And it was a question for the jury whether it was by careless and negligent act that her death was occurred, whether in fact ordinary caution had been used, it being dusk, so as to constitute a very improper and negligent act. So the very fact that you're baptizing them in the dark, well, then that shows negligence and therefore manslaughter. James Moore, remember James Moore, who helped by grabbing hair in our previous discussion.

Gerrit James Moore was called to prove some material fact, but he did not answer. Several other witnesses were then someone but not appearing. The learned judge said he could not help remarking upon the scandalous negligence of the witnesses. And if the case was not immediately proceeded with, he should most decidedly entreat the recognizance. A witness in the case having appeared, the trial was proceeded with. So at first, there aren't really any witnesses. Now, of course, remember the witnesses of this event are all the people who are at the baptism, so they're all Latter-day saints. And clearly, what the paper is trying to allege is that, well, of course, these Mormons aren't going to testify that what this Mormon did was wrong. It's actually a very common anti-Mormon thing. And you'll see that all the way into the Utah period. I mean, in Utah, Latter-day saints are going to get barred from serving on juries. Now think about that for a moment. Ninety-plus percent of the population of Utah territory is Latter-day saint.

Gerrit But you will not be tried by a jury of your peers because it will be that other five percent that, well, not everybody, but for the most part, if you happen to be living in Utah in 1880 and you aren't a Latter-day saint, you may not be super friendly with the Latter-day saints because you probably were one or you're in competition with one or you are angry at this overbearing religious nature of the territory, whatever it is. You might be. There were certainly some gentile settlers who were on very good terms with Brigham Young and other Latter-day saints, but there were certainly some that were not, if we were to put it that way. A witness having appeared, the trial was proceeded with. Michael Kinty said that he measured the depth of the brook. The prisoner Pogmore took him to it. He said that this was the place where the woman was baptized. When the water was low, it was only a small brook, only about four yards wide, and in depth not more than a foot or a foot and a half. There was a flood at the time, and when he saw it the day after the death of the deceased, it was six feet in depth, but the flood having in great measure subsided, he should conjecture that at the time of the baptism, it could not have been less than nine feet.

Gerrit So nine feet of water there. George Basely deposed that he lived at Crewe, the brook in which the deceased was baptized was three quarters of a mile from Crewe. The brook was then running in strong currents. The body was found by some hedging about two or three yards from the brook. He helped to take the body out, which was that of a full grown woman. There was nothing on the body, but a singlet which reached down to the waist. And then in parentheses, there's this, it says sensation. That means that the people listening to the trial went, oh, right? Because, oh my, oh my stars. You know, she wasn't wearing anything at all, except for this baptismal gown. Yes, it's almost as if she was being baptized. But remember, part of her clothing, whatever she was wearing over was torn off as he was trying to save her. Notice that is a little bit different. We were told that she was found sticking up out of the mud in the water. And this sounds like instead, the flood waters, her body ended up in some hedges next to the water.

Gerrit And so that is a little bit different. You're already getting very different accounts of what's going on. Cross-examined by Mr. Temple. So they're going to cross-examine this witness. When he cross-examined Mr. Baisley, he had not been a traveler. He did not know the River Jordan or any other water mentioned in Scripture. The spot where the deceased met her death was very beautiful and likely to dispose the mind to serious and proper feelings. So essentially, it sounds like the lawyer was like, you know, where do you think other baptisms took place? And is this that much different than any other baptism? The continued, sorry, one more, witness that they get here. Lucy Massey examined. She was a dressmaker and knew the deceased well. She was about 30 years of age, saw her on the 30th of November, the day of her deceased at half past one o'clock for about 10 minutes. It was the day of the evening on which she was drowned. But no, and she said, my husband's forcing me to get baptized.

Gerrit I can hear her screams as they drag her off. Nothing that would prove the point that they want to make. The continued absence of material witnesses, having excited the attention of the learned judge, he observed that never in the course of his judicial experience had he witnessed such palpable negligence in keeping the evidence together. It's kind of a criticism of the prosecution. He should therefore, having expressed his marked displeasure against those who had conducted the case, direct that the recognizance should be entreated and that the expenses of the witnesses disallowed, except those who had attended to give evidence. The jury, under the direction of the learned judge, in the absence of evidence, acquitted, and they have this in italics, acquitted the prisoners. It has been currently rumored. So now notice the paper itself is getting into, I should, I never stated this. This newspaper is called the Church Intelligencer.

Richard Hmm, interesting. Fair shake here.

Gerrit Well, it's not the Latter-day Saint Church Intelligencer.

Richard This isn't the Nauvoo Expositor?

Gerrit This is a Church of England newspaper. So this Anglican newspaper surprisingly has real issues with non-conformists and Latter-day Saints. And so as we get to this part where it's been rumored, well, my guess is what we're about to read that's been rumored will be things that throw the Latter-day Saints in a negative light. Well, let's find out, shall we? It has been currently rumored since the acquittal that the witnesses for the prosecution are strongly tainted with the peculiarities of the Mormonite sect and had purposely absented themselves in order to defeat the ends of justice. The information, although based upon a rumor, we don't want to be charged for libel, the information, though based on a rumor, has some confirming circumstances considering the prevalence of these opinions in the place in which the witnesses reside and the fact that a strict and rigid warning had been given them of necessity of a punctual appearance this morning from the probability of the case being very early before the court.

Gerrit There was another arraignment and the coroner's inquest, which the learned attorney general intimated to the court would be preceded with hereafter. Mr. Edgerton, on behalf of the prisoners, said, page here, that from the absence of evidence in the former case and the acquittal then, it was a plea of atrophoie acquitte, and no other indictment could be sustained. Essentially, I think they're arguing kind of a double jeopardy here. The learned judge agreed with the remarks of the counsel for the prisoners and directed the acquittal. The prisoners were discharged. The attorney general afterwards proceeded with the case of Pogmore and Cartwright, the Mormonites, upon the coroner's inquest, when the learned judge interfered, directing an acquittal, observing to the prisoners that no evidence had been offered against them, and they were therefore acquitted. At the same time, said the learned judge, it is my duty to remark, although with your particular tenets, I have nothing to do.

Gerrit You have been most culpable in not having examined the brook in which you proposed to observe the baptismal ceremony. The pain which you, Thomas Cartwright, I hope have experienced from the dreadful consequences which have ensued, will be a warning to you hereafter. Clearly, what you need to do is chastise a man who watched his wife and unborn baby drown. Luckily, the judge was there to remind him that it was a problem. His lordship then ordered the recognizance to be entreated and the expenses of the absentees to be disallowed. So, this case, at least it's being portrayed here, doesn't ever in any way mention her claiming that she'd have to be drowned before she was baptized. Now, that would be, again, a logical thought that, well, if she said she would have to be drowned first, well, what do you know? What happened? This is one of those cases where the Pugmire or Pogmore or whatever we want to call him, that the son who writes the letter that then gets included in the history of the church, I think he might have been doing a little bit of embellishment there.

Gerrit Maybe not, maybe he had heard that she had said something like that. But this is one of those things that you actually find multiple times in church history where sometimes when something terrible happens, instead of chalking it up to terrible circumstance, instead of saying we live in this horrible ruined world, the people involved attempt to find a way that it's actually the person who suffered. It's their fault. And you don't have to go very deep on that to think, well, okay, so even if she had said that, what, is she like a prophetess now? That even though she changed her mind and decided she wanted to get baptized, that God's like, nope, I'm taking your first offer. I mean, is that fair to her unborn child? Is that what we're thinking? I mean, is it fair to Thomas Cartwright that because his wife earlier doubted and then believed, which is by the way, literally every single person who has ever been baptized into the church at first goes, I don't know about that.

Gerrit And then goes, sign me up. Everyone, Brigham Young, right, included. That he should have to suffer because of that. I mean, I don't know where Pugmire Jr. was getting his information. You assume it's from his parents. But the reality is this is a horrible tragedy. Back to the game, I don't know that she said she'd rather be drowned than be baptized. I think if she had made that a public sentiment, we probably would have found it in these anti-Mormon articles that were published in these religious newspapers that clearly hate the Mormonites. So she expressed it. She certainly didn't express it publicly. And notice that according to that account, the reason why she was being baptized at night is she didn't want anyone else to know because she'd been so public about how opposed she was.

Gerrit Well, that doesn't seem to carry. So let me get this straight. She was so public about the fact that she absolutely refused to be baptized, but the prosecution couldn't find anyone who was willing to say that she didn't want to be baptized. Well, the whole town in Crewe is not Latter-day Saint. In fact, they are thoroughly detested in Crewe like they are everywhere else. So why couldn't they find someone who said that she said it? I mean, it doesn't mean it didn't happen, but as we often say on this podcast, is it probable? No. Is it possible? Maybe. But really, far more likely, what this is is a horrific tragedy, and people are trying to cope with it in different ways. How is it that God could have allowed this woman to drown at the same time that he was baptizing? And I think that when people die in the service of God or doing things for God, those are the types of questions that everyone asks.

Gerrit So I hope that this story was a fun one, maybe a little bit off the beaten path. I think that Becky already bought the game, so we'll have more questions from this game.

Richard She absolutely did. Hopefully that answers your question, Louise.

Gerrit If it doesn't, well, at this point, you probably already lost. So thank you very much.

Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.

Manslaughter or Accident - A Baptism Tragedy

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Steven, listener email from North Dakota (Phebe Draper Mailbag)

Rick, listener email on the cost of premium content

Matt, listener email ("Question for Richard only")

James E. Faust, story about his high priests group (talk not named on air)

Early church meeting minutes listing "elders with the high priesthood"

Blast from the Past board game card, November 23, 1843

History of the Church, discharge of Pugmire and Cartwright at Chester

Jonathan Pugmire Jr.'s statement, in History of the Church

Jonathan Pugmire Jr.'s statement, on the arrest and trial

"Fatal Superstition," English newspaper, December 11, 1843

"The Mormonites," London Nonconformist, January 10, 1844

Church Intelligencer, "The Law, Chester, Tuesday, January 2nd, the Mormonites"

Trial testimony of Michael Kinty, George Basely and Lucy Massey (as reported in the Church Intelligencer)

The judge's closing remarks at Chester (as reported in the Church Intelligencer)

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Manslaughter or Accident - A Baptism Tragedy

Cheat codes for family night

Steven, listener email from North Dakota (Phebe Draper Mailbag)

Rick, listener email on the cost of premium content

Matt, listener email ("Question for Richard only")

James E. Faust, story about his high priests group (talk not named on air)

Early church meeting minutes listing "elders with the high priesthood"

Blast from the Past board game card, November 23, 1843

History of the Church, discharge of Pugmire and Cartwright at Chester

Jonathan Pugmire Jr.'s statement, in History of the Church

Jonathan Pugmire Jr.'s statement, on the arrest and trial

"Fatal Superstition," English newspaper, December 11, 1843

"The Mormonites," London Nonconformist, January 10, 1844

Church Intelligencer, "The Law, Chester, Tuesday, January 2nd, the Mormonites"

Trial testimony of Michael Kinty, George Basely and Lucy Massey (as reported in the Church Intelligencer)

The judge's closing remarks at Chester (as reported in the Church Intelligencer)

How much does Rick's email say premium content costs per month?

From 1831 to 1880

Money said on air

Putting numbers to words

What this episode talks about more than usual

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