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We lied about the witnesses
S4E14 · Statements from the Three Witnesses (primarily Martin Harris)
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Standard of Truth · Season 4 · Episode 14 · 1:07:59

Statements from the Three Witnesses (primarily Martin Harris)

When the first missionaries reached present-day Kansas, they told a skeptical Indian agent that an angel had shown plates to one of their men and two others, and he wrote it down in a government letter.

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The question ·
Can you share your top five episodes that would be good for me to listen to again and share with them as it applies to growing their faith and walking back to the church?
Jeff (listener)

After March Madness picks, Jeff asks for episodes to share with a young couple who have gone inactive over 'truth claims.' Gerrit says the most important thing is understanding the plan of salvation, starting with the premortal life, and that doubt is normal for everyone. Then he reads the Three Witnesses' statement and the earliest outside accounts of their testimony: a Christian newspaper that called the 'gold Bible' blasphemous, Eber Howe mocking Martin Harris in a Kirtland-area hotel bar, and an Indian agent's letter reporting what the missionaries told him in present-day Kansas. Gerrit walks through Martin Harris's later interviews, where he says he held the plates on his knee, and Oliver's testimony on his return to the church. He ends with Martin's account of how Joseph got the plates and how Martin came to believe.

Who comes upMartin HarrisOliver CowderyDavid WhitmerJoseph SmithRichard W. CumminsWilliam ClarkEber D. HoweLucy HarrisPreserved HarrisSidney RigdonSolomon SpauldingJonathan Edwards
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We lied about the witnesses

Richard thanks listeners for sitting through four parts before anyone witnessed anything.

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Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. We'd like to thank our long-suffering listeners who have been with us through Witnesses of the Book of Mormon, parts one through four. Part five was our last episode, where we got to them witnessing something.
Gerrit Yeah, didn't we also have multiples that we just kind of threw in, that we kept lying to everyone and saying that we were going to talk about Witnesses and they didn't?
Richard Well, lying intended, it suggests that we intended...
Gerrit Well, I never had any intention of talking about the Witnesses.
Richard Well, yes, we did lie there. That is lying, and we did that.
Gerrit I notice we haven't given any picks on... We never gave any picks on March Madness.
Richard No, we haven't. Well, so March Madness hasn't started yet. This should be coming out. This episode should be coming out right before our live studio audience audience.
Gerrit What better time for you to tell us who you think is going to win the championship right now? So you're going from, we can't make it past the first round, to we're going to win it all.
Richard That's my thinking, especially since they, relatively recently, lost to a garbage Ohio State team that was unranked.
Gerrit And that fired their coach mid-season, and that they had basically student interns sending plays in for the remainder of the season.
Richard It's win one for the Gipper kind of a game. And all the records go out the record book, when Purdue and Ohio State get together.
Gerrit Oh, I know people who are both Ohio State graduates and Purdue graduates. There is some animosity there.
Richard Of course there is. Indiana versus Ohio, a battle to the death. So my guess is that it's going to be, Purdue is my pick. I think BYU gets to the Sweet 16 this year.
Gerrit The fact, whoa, the Sweet 16?
Richard That's what I think, yeah, they're going to make it. Well, I can't, you know, I'm not Kreskin, I can't. I have very strong feelings that that's going to happen. This is our year, Gerrit.
Gerrit Now, there is a chance if BYU stops losing to garbage wall of the teams like Oklahoma State.
Richard Oklahoma State is the go-pokes, they've got their number.
Gerrit If they stop losing to terrible teams, there's a chance that at least one team from the state of Utah plays in that opening round game in Salt Lake, right? Because the first round was in Salt Lake, and so either Utah State or BYU or Utah, one of them might get a draw that lets them play in there, right?
Richard So I think we don't know what Weber State is going to do in the tournament?
Gerrit Right. I think we do know what UVU is going to do in the tournament, given the fact that they are somewhere near the bottom echelon of their division now.
Richard So going back to Purdue, so this happened a couple of years ago. Virginia was the first team to lose to a 16-beating one. The next year, they came back and won the championship.
Gerrit So that's a trick I see.
Richard So I'm basing that on that.
Gerrit What about the fact that UConn's were beating teams by 50 points?
Richard Yeah, I believe they beat Marquette relatively recently by like almost 30 points. Marquette was ranked fourth.
Gerrit It was actually one of the largest blowouts of a top five team in a top one to five matchup in the history of UConn.
Richard I think they're fine.
Gerrit You know, they'll maybe get their stuff together.
Richard Yeah, I think they're going to make a run. I'm also predicting UConn.
Gerrit But just the Sweet 16.
Richard Well, at least the Sweet 16.
Gerrit What about Houston?
Richard I haven't been following them.
Gerrit I don't know enough. Wendy would be very disappointed.
Richard I actually, so I don't start watching college basketball until the conference championships. I'm watching football all the way up until then, and then, you know, the NBA All-Star game, and I start paying attention. So, it's essentially Connecticut and them boys. So, one of those things, Stephen A. Smith, it's a classic move. He doesn't know anything about any of these teams, but they'll get him on because he's on everything on ESPN. And so, he'll be like, Alright, so what do you think? They got senior guard.
Gerrit We should probably see if he'll come on the program.
Richard I will have our people reach out to his people.
Gerrit Will our crack staff reach out?
Richard I will reach out.
Gerrit We're still waiting to hear back from Amy Reid, fresh off of Super Bowl win. We are. I feel like that would change the dynamic of the podcast a little bit.
Richard I'm going to reach out to Amy Reid as well, again.
Gerrit I mean, see if you can get Travis Kelsey to. He's not as much allowed as they say, but let's just see.
Richard I will see. Yeah. So, we are, we're going to be having our big event. The Sweet 16. In fact, I think if things go well for the BYU, they might be playing in the Conference Championship game.
Gerrit The Big 12 Conference Championship.
Richard On the night of our.
Gerrit Well, you notice we still felt no fear about that. It was like Kansas versus Kansas. If everything works out well, BYU could be playing in the Big 12 Championship, and we were like, yeah, schedule for that day.
Richard So, in Kansas to play Houston.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard Maybe it would be Iowa State. That Iowa State win is getting better and better.
Gerrit It does. It makes us look great until we lose to Oklahoma State. And then it doesn't matter. No one cares. They're so bad.
Richard I'm really excited. I'm excited for the Cowboys to make a run in the NIT this year. I think second round NIT.
Gerrit They're not going to the NIT.
Richard I have a feeling this year. This is our year. To beat DePaul.
Gerrit First of all, DePaul is one of the worst teams they've ever had.
Richard I know.
Gerrit You're not looking at the NIT. You're looking at like the CIT basketball team. You're looking at like, I don't know, like the Zolders Corp.
Richard We have one relatively short email and then write it to the statements of the witnesses.
Gerrit At least some of them.
Richard Some of the statements from some of the witnesses.
Gerrit We're going to at least talk about, perhaps talking about some of the statements.
Richard I said, well, we're going to get to the Eight Witnesses. And Gerrit said, we might not get to all three of the Three Witnesses.
Gerrit And by might, I mean, we will.
Richard We will not. This email comes to us from Jeff. Give me your top five. I'm going to be working with a very young couple in my ward who have gone inactive. Without boring you with the details, I truly feel that they want to believe, but have been swayed by anti-materials that relate to quote unquote truth claims. Can you share your top five episodes that would be good for me to listen to again and share with them as it applies to growing their faith and walking back to the church? Jeff. Gerrit, what do you think?
Gerrit First of all, Jeff's own testimony is a miracle, because he's a Wisconsin conler.
Richard Yes, he does say, aka a real Wisconsin conler.
Gerrit I mean, so some missionaries somewhere, it was their sweet water river that they converted someone there and carried him across. I wish I could, with definitiveness, say, oh yeah, these are the ones you should listen to. And frankly, I feel like depending on what their concerns are, you may want to tailor it, or what you listen to based upon what their concerns are. Our original podcast episode spent a lot of time on sources and how we know what we know. But I think it's a good thing to highlight just how unique some of the doctrines we have are that no other Christian believes. Now, if you happen to be an evangelical Christian listening to this, I don't know why, just because you are fresh out of other things to do to prove your faithfulness, Calvin is God, but you would say, you're probably listening and saying, yeah, that's exactly right.
Gerrit You guys believe all kinds of stuff that other Christians don't believe. But as Rick, Richard, as Rick?
Richard You know what? Rick's top five, we don't want to Rick's top five this way.
Gerrit We haven't had Ricky Dukes. As Richard and I talk to people about, you know, testimony questions and issues, one of the things that becomes pretty apparent a lot of the time is that people are really upset about something that happened in the past or some doctor that was taught or some practice in the past, but they don't fully comprehend that other doctrines that are taught, that we have, are unique to Latter-day Saints theology. Even as much as something like, you existed before you were born. That doesn't sound like radical, you know, theology. In fact, you would find that a whole bunch of people who leave our church will still say things like, oh, I'm going back to God, right?
Gerrit Well, there's no going back at all. You were never there in the first place. The pre-mortal life is the crux of understanding the planet salvation. And from it, all other aspects of radical Latter-day Saints theology emanate, including the idea that someone could become like God. For me, focusing on who we are and what our purpose on this earth is. Why did God, I mean, the great question for all Christians, for all believers in any God, why did God create this world? Why is this world so terrible? Those are questions that anyone who is thinking seriously about God has to come up with an answer. If God is all good, and God is all powerful, and God knows everything, and God created everything, then why is it terrible?
Gerrit There has to be an answer. And so, I don't really know. I think our Doctrine and Covenants section 93 episodes, I think that was a multi-parter. I think that one is helpful because it talks about the nature of who we are. What do you think, Richard?
Richard So, there is the Doctrine and Covenants 93, the nature of God. Those are also multi-parter. I think that, to your point, there is a lot of babies that are strewn in the streets that are being thrown out with the bath water as it relates to the doctrine that we have. you have a difficult time with a particular issue, but we sometimes lose focus on a couple of core key things that are the most beautiful points of doctrine. And because II mean, I bring up the topic when I went to a BYU Baylor game, and I had a shirt that your wife helped me to tie. And it was Roger Williams shaking hands with Brigham Young inviting... saying, welcome to the Big 12.
Gerrit Yeah, which was nice.
Richard Bit of a tip of the cap to the Baptist at Baylor. And not one person at the University of Baylor knew who Roger Williams was. And they're like, why is that person shaking hands with... They knew who Brigham Young was though, by the way.
Gerrit Well, it's hard to be partners.
Richard And so I was like, oh, this is the mound of the Baptist Church. Oh yeah? So because those things don't matter to them, right? All of a sudden, where there's many episodes actually where you talk about why history matters to us and why it's an important thing, but boy, there are such beautiful doctrines, such beautiful truths taught through the restored gospel that you abandon because of having a difficult time understanding when Miranda Hyde's husband went on a mission.
Gerrit And you allow that to work in you to say, well, then maybe none of this is true, you know? And the reality is, you know, we don't have answers for everything. We don't know the mind and will of God. At the same time, there are teachings that are unique to Latter-day Saint Theology among Christian churches that you would hope this couple or anyone who's looking for answers would not want to casually get rid of. For instance, the idea that every single person who has ever lived on this earth will have an equal opportunity at exaltation. And not just exaltation, that every single person who has ever lived on this earth will eventually, outside of, to quote President Oaks, with exceptions too few to mention, outside of the sons of tradition, every single person who has ever lived on this earth will eventually go to a kingdom of glory.
Gerrit A kingdom of happiness, a kingdom of bliss, a kingdom of peace. Latter-day Saints have a theology that is so all-encompassing, so demonstrable of God's love. I know other Christians say the words God loves us. I get it. And they love God. They are fervent in their beliefs. But tell them that every single person who has ever lived on earth is going to go to heaven. And they aren't going to accept that. They will say, no, that's not the case. And so the reality is, focusing on universal salvation, the latter day saints believe because of the Prophet Joseph Smith, focusing on the idea of both eternal marriage and eternal families, which we believe in because of Joseph Smith, and focusing on a true understanding of the purpose of life and why suffering exists that we understand because of revelations given through the Prophet Joseph Smith.
Richard It's a tough thing. When people leave the church, they take for granted the things that they believe. So, Jeff, one of the things I could recommend for your friends is to have them sign up for the premium episodes of the podcast.
Gerrit It took a real turn.
Richard But the thing is that we've spent a lot of time in Calvinism for the past... I don't know. We've been doing it for a little over a year. It feels like we've been talking about Calvinism for like 90 years.
Gerrit Yeah, it's always coming up. Yeah.
Richard So anyway, but the idea is that we aren't poking fun at John Calvin. We're saying, given the understanding that he has that is contained in the Bible, he made some pretty smart, logical, theological...
Gerrit He took everything to its logical conclusion. It's not, yeah, in fact, it is the only logical way to make the conclusion about salvation if you want to say that salvation is absolutely by grace, that God created everything out of nothing, and that those who don't accept Jesus are going to burn in hell forever. If you accept those things to be true, which most Christians actually do, almost all Christians, any other argument stops to be logical and it starts to become emotional. Because if God is all-powerful, the best part about being all-powerful is that you can do whatever you want. So if you can do whatever you want, then there's not actually a sentence you can speak that says, oh, God would have saved more people, but because when you're all-powerful, God does whatever God wants to do.
Gerrit And so Calvin and people like Jonathan Edwards had to reconcile, sure, I know this for a few say that God loves us, but I see that love manifested in the fact that he saves any of us, because he should, because we're all sinners. But that's not exactly what a Latter-day Saint thinks when they think about God's love for us.
Richard But I think that's part of the problem though, Gary, is that I think that what happens is that the Latter-day Saint takes for granted the things that they now know and believe about God and thinks that they can take those things and then just move them to a place without any potential historical concerns and plop down in another church where they talk about Jesus and still hold to those beliefs. But you can't, because that church believes the complete opposite of all of those.
Gerrit Yeah, because that church you go to is great, it's wonderful, but go have a conversation with the pastor and say, go ask him, where's Gerrit Dirkmaat going?
Richard Well, I can tell you that.
Gerrit Where's Gerrit Dirkmaat going when he dies?
Richard When President Oaks says, a list too small to mention, he doesn't include Gerrit.
Gerrit The reality is, any pastor who's being honest will at best say, well, we don't really know what happens to people who don't have faith in Jesus. Maybe there's some way that they are given grace. And it's pretty hesitant when they say it. And yet, if you walk back what they just said to you and you repeat it back to them, so let me get this straight. You just said, the moment you die, you either go to heaven or hell immediately. The only way you go to heaven is if you have faith in Jesus. So if you don't have faith in Jesus, the right Jesus, not Mormon Jesus, no, they'll let you know, not that Jesus, then where would I go when I die? And the answer would be hell. It would be hell over and over and over and over again. Because I don't believe in the right Jesus or if we're talking about someone who's a Muslim or someone who's a Confucianist from China, I mean, the reality is most Christian theologies are far, far, far more exclusionary than Latter-day Saint theology is.
Gerrit We focus on exaltation being exclusionary. And so people who struggle with things like, oh, I can't believe that there was a time, you know, or I can't believe that, you know, my mom can't come to the temple ceremony of our wedding because she's not a member of the church. How terribly exclusionary that is. I can understand why that causes all kinds of stress and difficulty. I'm not minimizing that at all. I've experienced it in my own family. It's a very difficult thing when not everyone can go to the temple scene. You know what's more exclusionary than not being able to go to a temple ceiling? Burning in hell for billions and billions and trillions of years. With never an end. Sure, on the day that you can't get into the temple ceremony, it's going to rub you a little wrong.
Gerrit Burning in hell for eternity is likely to rub you slightly more rawly. Right? And I know that I'm being a little bit glib about that, but it is the reality in the difference of doctrine. Latter-day Saints should trump it from the rooftop, Doctrine and Coven, Section 76. We should be so proud, so grateful, of the fact that God gave Joseph Smith this vision, so that we don't have to believe in a God that created billions upon billions upon billions of people out of nothing, so that they would burn in hell. We don't have to believe that. Until you stop thinking that Joseph Smith's a prophet, and then guess what? Suddenly you have to believe it again.
Richard So, most of this year, we have talked about, in some way or another, the Book of Mormon, the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, the witnesses of the Book of Mormon.
Gerrit We're trying to be on the break.
Richard A little bit, a little bit. Well, we receive emails from people saying that they're trying to cut out things like us so they can focus on following me lessons.
Gerrit We recently, Jeff, had an email, I think we read on a previous episode, last week, in which someone said that they're trying to cut us out of their lives because we're too addictive.
Richard That's right. That's what I took out.
Gerrit That we are essentially like sugar and people just have to listen, which is why you should come to the live in person event.
Richard Which would act like a brand muffin. So, I mean, I am oftentimes accused of being too simple by my dissertation chair, by Gerrit, by friends, family. But we've spent a lot of time talking about the Book of Mormon, the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, the witnesses of the Book of Mormon. That to me, I mentioned this in a previous episode, we had a family night discussion about an issue on Sabbath day observance and when that should be. And we talked about how, well, this in Corinthian says this, and this over here says this, but Seventh Day of Venice interpreted this way, other Christians interpreted this way. But we know when the Sabbath is because the Lord revealed it to Joseph Smith in the Doctrine and Covenants. Now, why does that matter? Well, I know that Joseph Smith is a prophet because I know the Book of Mormon is the Word of God.
Richard And there is no way else that the Book of Mormon could have come forth except by the gift and power of God. And therefore, again, very simple in my mind, but that's, it's called the keystone of our religion for that very simple reason, because all of these other things, these beautiful doctrines that we love and that make sense, they all come from that basic thought.
Gerrit And that really is. I mean, we talked to someone on a previous episode, we answered, we didn't talk to them. I mean, I'm pretty sure that they listened for like, the first 15 seconds of our response to their question, and they were like, let's see what, let's see what Kudlow and Creamer are pulling, and then they moved to something else. But they were expressing some of their difficulties in faith crises. Look, anyone who has ever lived, who is a believer, who isn't Jesus, has had a, if you want to call it a faith crisis, you can call it whatever you want. Anyone who has gone through life has had at least a time or a moment or a year or ten years or whatever it is where they didn't have all of the answers about God and they were uncertain and they started to doubt and they felt themselves unstate.
Gerrit So if you're listening to this right now and you're thinking, I don't know if I'm certain about the gospel, welcome to literally everyone who's ever lived. That is normal. The question is what do we do with the doubts that we have? Do we lean into listening to excommunicated members pontificate about how smart they are now that they've left the church? Because you know what? Studying what antagonists of the church have to say about the church couldn't ever possibly help you understand whether or not you have faith in the church. How could it? They don't. So you're trying to derive from an antagonist something that you can't actually derive. Now, if the goal is to know whether or not Joseph Smith is a prophet, the only way you could possibly know that is through the Holy Spirit.
Gerrit And how do you know that? Do you know it because you read what someone has to say about what they think about Joseph Smith and plural marriage or something like that? No. How you would know it is by going back to something that we know comes directly from Joseph Smith. The Book of Mormon. The revelations that Joseph Smith received in the Doctrine and Covenants. Do those come from God? Does the Holy Spirit speak to you and tell you that they are from God? Because if they do, then when we come to these other questions of I'm not so sure about the Kerwin Safety Society, we can just simply say, I don't know why God allowed that terrible tragedy to take place, but I know that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon, because the Holy Spirit told me that. And that's what I think we want to get to a place where we're not constantly reevaluating whether or not we believe, and we're not tossed about by every wind of doctrine.
Gerrit We focus ourselves on the Lord Jesus Christ, and not just generic, Trinitarian body parts or passions Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ, who appears to Joseph Smith again and again and again, and gives him revelations that help us understand who Jesus even is. We know who Jesus is because Joseph Smith saw and talked to him and received scripture and revelations declaring the nature of Jesus. Our Christian friends also love Jesus, and that's why we love them. We will take anybody who loves Jesus. But it's nice to know why we're here. It's nice to know that this isn't some kind of cosmic accident. This is the plan, and it was always the plan.
Gerrit The plan wasn't just to have Adam and Eve and the rest of us running around the Garden of Eden, eating spontaneously-produced grapes and living without mosquitoes. The plan was to come to a terrible world. So that we could progress to become like God.
Richard So, Gerrit, I think that's a great answer. I did want to point out that Kudlow and Kramer ended in 2005, which means that I have a son that has been serving in Peru on a mission for 8 months, and that show ended before he was born. And that was the reference.
Gerrit First of all, in my defense, I'm a little by the time on my business acumen. You make a reference and they're gone.
Richard Well, anyway, it's a great reference. That's 2005 when you were a day trader. Is that what was happening?
Gerrit I got a PhD in history. What makes you think that any part of me had any financial acumen ever?
Richard Well, I'm just glad you didn't reference the Lair report or something like that. That's a pretty good...
Gerrit I used to watch... I used to watch that.
Intro Oh, sure.
Gerrit See, I was... I was... No. Obviously, everyone listening knows that I was.
Richard It's a great answer though. I'm going to send over a list of some different things and give access to the Joe Smith and the Restoration premium episodes to Jeff. Because I think that that really does help to really showcase some of the differences and gain an understanding of where we come. And by the time you get this, we might be to Joseph Smith in that... The statements of the witnesses.
Gerrit Well, so when we're talking about the experience of the witnesses, we were reading Joseph Smith's account of that. And the witnesses then are going to produce this statement. In fact, it's the next thing Joseph Smith says in his account that they produced this statement. As we talked about in an earlier episode, the witness statements now were originally found at the back, at the end of the Book of Mormon, rather than the front. And I know that everyone knows it, but I want to read it just in case you don't have your Book of Mormon handy in front of you. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice have declared it unto us.
Gerrit Wherefore, we know of assurity that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates, and they have been shown unto us by the power of God and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes that we beheld and saw the plates and the engravings thereon, and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it. Wherefore, to be obedient under the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things, and we know that we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garment to the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens.
Gerrit And the honor be to the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen. Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, Martin Harris. Everyone knows that statement. You've read it many, many times, and obviously it's been testified of many times. But there are multiple parts of this, that these men saw the plates, Joseph Smith really did have plates, that those plates were shown to them by God, by the power of God. An angel came and showed them the plates. And the voice of God said, the translation that you've all been working on, that Martin and Oliver have been scribing for, that David Whitmer has been pressing for, that translation is true. The Book of Mormon has God testifying that the words and translation are true. Now, with the Three Witness experiences, these men will immediately go out and start bearing their testimonies to other people about what it is that they saw from that angel.
Gerrit We have one very early account in a newspaper. Now, it's a Christian newspaper that is attacking... I know this is going to come as a surprise, but there's an early Christian newspaper that's attacking people who believe in quote the gold Bible as blasphemous.
Richard You don't say.
Gerrit You wouldn't see that today. But back then, there was one of the earliest... Is there 1829?
Richard Nice.
Gerrit Yeah, where they claim they had a conversation with Oliver and Martin again. I can't prove that they did, but they said, It was on a clear, open, beautiful day, far from any inhabitants in a remote field. At the time we saw the record of which it has been spoken, brought and laid before us by an angel arrayed in glorious light. He descended, I suppose, out of the midst of heaven. Now, if this is human juggling, judge me. When Martin Harris first arrived in the Kirtland area, following the Latter-day Saints movement from New York to Kirtland, Eber Howe was more than willing to make condescending, attacking statements about Latter-day Saints. And this is what he said about Martin Harris. Now, of course, he said he was trying to mock Martin Harris, but it demonstrates what Martin Harris was doing with his witness that he had.
Gerrit Martin Harris, another chief of the Mormon imposters, arrived here last Saturday from the Bible Quarry of New York. He immediately planted himself in the bar room of the hotel where he commenced reading and explaining the Mormon hoax. Now, of course, Martin Harris wasn't saying, let me tell you about the Mormon hoax. This is Eber Howe's commentary on what Martin Harris was doing. He told all about the gold plates, angels, spirits, and Joe Smith, and he had seen and handled them all by the power of God. So with Martin Harris, you have people very early on saying that, in fact, Martin Harris has seen them. You also have something very early on related to Oliver Cowdery. In 1830, we've talked about this before, but in 1830, Oliver Cowdery and Parley Pratt and Simon Peterson and Peter Woodward Jr.
Gerrit They're sent on a mission to go preach to the American Indians. And they get out to what is present day Kansas, and they begin preaching. Well, the local Indian agent tries to stop them from preaching because they don't have a permit to preach to the Indians. One of the fascinating pieces of early Latter-day Saint history is that this agent, Richard Cummins, sends a letter to his superior, the person who's over all of the Indian affairs there along the Mississippi. That superior, the Indian agent, is William Clark, General William Clark, of literally Lewis and Clark fame. The same Lewis and Clark, who made the trek to the sea, is now 25, 26 years later, serving this federal position as the Indian agent over essentially all of the Western Indians on the other side of the Mississippi.
Gerrit So Cummins writes Clark a letter. It is not a flattering letter about these weirdo Latter-day Saints who just showed up and are trying to preach about things. He tells Clark that they act very strange, but they say they are sent by God and they must preach. Now here's the really cool part. What apparently they're saying to Cummins. He relates to Clark, they say they have a new revelation with them as their guide in teaching the Indians, which they say was shown to one of their sect in a miraculous way, and that an angel from heaven appeared to one of their men and two others of their sect. I refuse to let them stay or go among the Indians unless they first have taken permission from you or some other officer of the general government, and then he threatens to throw them in jail. But already part of what Oliver Cowdery is telling Richard Cummins is you don't understand.
Gerrit I saw an angel. An angel came down and showed me gold plates. And he's relating that to other people who are not believers. Now, it doesn't have the desired effect, and they don't ever receive a permit. I know it's hard to believe, but in a day of early anti-Mormonism, they're told they're not allowed to preach because they don't have a permit, and then they apply for a permit and are told you can't have a permit because of what you're going to preach. So they literally don't have a way to do it legally. Presbyterians can do it. Congregationalists can do it. Everyone else can do it. We're not going to have Mormonites out there preaching. You can't get a problem. So, early on, you see these early references to these witness experiences. We also have some later reminiscing accounts when David Whitmer and Martin Harris especially are asked about their experience with being one of the Three Witnesses later in life.
Gerrit These are also pretty fascinating experiences, because one of the things that happens with the witness is you start to have people say, Oh yeah, like I totally had a private conversation with Martin Harris, and he like told me he never saw it. What do you have Martin Harris saying publicly? You have him saying publicly that he saw it. You have his name attached to a witness statement. You have him reiterating himself over and over again that he saw it. But you occasionally get these random people who say, Oh yeah, yeah, I talked to David Whitmer, and he like told me he never saw the real place. You don't ever have David Whitmer saying that. So you occasionally have people make entirely antagonistic arguments saying things like, Oh yeah, you know the Three Witnesses, they all denied their testimony. What they mean by that is that someone somewhere that wasn't them claimed at some point that they had a conversation with them, that we have no record of said conversation, in which they were told something less than what was in the witness statements in the Book of Mormon.
Gerrit So, in 1853, there is a man who interviews Martin Harris. Now, Martin Harris is not back living in Utah at this point. He is not living as a member of the church. He's joined multiple different breakaway groups at this point in his life. So, this interview is one between someone who is a faithful member of the church and someone who isn't, but it gets published in the Millennial Star. This man, his name is Dill. He meets with Martin Harris, and he begins to ask him questions. He says. What do you think of the Book of Martin? Is it a divine record? The interviewer says that Martin Harris responded with the greatest cheerfulness.
Gerrit I'm not entirely sure what that means, but I hope that means he would like our podcast.
Richard It is not.
Gerrit So, no one else knows.
Richard Well, I'll be even pretty fair to Martin Harris.
Gerrit I have tried to defend the man.
Richard Yeah, you know what?
Gerrit You know what, Martin Harris, we're here for you. And also, stop taking the 116 pages. Stop taking the 116 pages.
Richard And just do what you said you were going to do and pay for the printing of the Book of Mormon after you saw the angel, especially.
Gerrit Well, we were all set. Anyway, Mr. Harris replied and said, I was the right-hand man of Joseph Smith, and I know that he was a prophet of God. I know that the Book of Mormon is true. I know that the plate's been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice declared it unto us. Therefore, I know of a surety that the work is true. Mr. Harris continued, for did I not at one time hold the plates on my knee an hour and a half whilst in conversation with Joseph when we went to bury them in the woods, that the enemy might not obtain them? Now, I honestly don't know. It's possible that the enemy tried to obtain them is actually his wife, because she's the one who's looking out in the woods to find them.
Richard The Wicked Witch of the Restoration, according to Whitney.
Gerrit I don't know whether or not that's true, but whenever I've read the source, the first thought that pops into my mind is if you're burying them out in the woods so that people can't find them, I know of one person in particular who was desperately looking in the woods to try to find them.
Richard Lucy and her son-in-law.
Gerrit Yeah, well, he's just trying to find the characters so that he can get married. It wasn't son-in-law yet.
Richard That's right, that's right. The son-in-law to be.
Gerrit Yeah, he's got to, he's got to demonstrate his connection, his worthiness, right? So he also, so he's making this conversation here that it's not just that he saw the plates from the angel. He also physically has them sitting on his knee while he's talking to Joseph. So he says, did I not have that, you know, that experience? Yes, I did. And as many of the plates as Joseph Smith translated, I handled with my hands plate after plate. So this is an expansion of what you generally think of when you think of the Three Witnesses. We generally will say the Three Witnesses have a, they have a powerful, miraculous spiritual experience because it's an angel who comes down and the angel shows them the plates and will often contrast that, I mean, I will often contrast that with what the Eight Witnesses experience is. And the Eight Witnesses are, that's another experience that sometime in August we'll get to.
Gerrit But when I say August, I mean October. And when I say October, I mean 2027. That's probably the, is that the schedule we're on?
Richard That's currently the way we have it mapped out. We have a whiteboard here, it's all good though.
Gerrit Yeah, it's like a beautiful mind in here. We have, you know, we have pins and everything with threads running everywhere. I know it's hard to believe that we don't have the best logistical planning capabilities, but you have to just believe us when we say that.
Richard Not related to the tour. Oh, the tour. Yeah, that thing runs like a top.
Gerrit That's mainly because of Becky and Angie. Our wives are the ones who have everything down to a perfect timing. Meanwhile, Richard and I are like, are we in Scranton tonight? I mean, you know, that's how we are. But he is saying that not only does he have this physical experience of having the plates on his knee, that somehow he's also leafing through the plates. Now, I don't know with whether or not he is looking at them outside of the sheet. But at any rate, he says, he described their dimensions. He pointed with one of his fingers of his left hand to the back of his right hand and said, I should think they were so long, about eight inches and about so thick, about four inches, and that each plate was thicker than the thickest tin. So you get this description, at least, in this interview. He's going to go on and talk about the entire experience of going to Charles Anthon and having him see the plates and things like that.
Gerrit I'm sorry, see the characters from the plates and say, oh, I can't read a sealed book and that story I think everyone's familiar with. But Martin Harris is going to give this testimony. Now, Oliver Cowdery, of course, dies much earlier, but he is also going to return to the church, and his return to the church is going to give a powerful testimony of the gold plates and the translation. This is what Oliver Cowdery has to say when he meets with the saints. This is in 1848, October 21st, 1848. He comes back to where the saints are gathering just outside of Council Bluffs. The vanguard of the church has already made it to Salt Lake, but there's thousands of saints that are gathering there, and there he's going to be re-baptized by Orson Hyde into the church. Friends and brethren, my name is Oliver, is Cowdery, Oliver Cowdery.
Gerrit In the early history of this church, I stood identified with her and won in her councils. True it is that the gifts and causes of God are without repentance. Not because I was better than the rest of mankind, what was I called, but to fulfill the purposes of God, he called me to the high and holy common. That Book is true. Sidney Rigdon did not write it. Mr. Spaulding did not write it.
Gerrit I wrote it myself as it fell from the lips of the Prophet. It contained the everlasting Gospel and came forth to the children and men in fulfillment of the revelations of John where he says he saw an angel come with the everlasting Gospel to preach to every nation, kindred, tongue and people. It contains principles of salvation and if you, my hearers, will walk by its light and obey its precepts, you will be saved with an everlasting salvation in the Kingdom of God on high. So, I think it's pretty safe to say that Oliver Calvary still very much believes that the Gold Plates are real and that the translation of the Book of Mormon is the Word of God. Even with his acrimonious apostasy and his difficult way back, Cowdery never stops testifying that the gold plates are from God, that Joseph has them, and that Joseph translated them by the gift and power of God.
Gerrit In fact, he's going to make special mention here as well, just like Martin Harris did. He didn't just see them, he also handled them. So even though we generally think of, well, Eight Witnesses touched them, but Three Witnesses saw the angel. At least two of these other Eight Witnesses also touched them. The other Three Witnesses, two of the other Three Witnesses also touched them in these accounts that they hear.
Richard So here he talks about also handling the interpreters. What about other things that were part of that, that did they touch them?
Gerrit Well, we don't have all of these explanations and not all of them provide all of the things that they see. When they talk about them, they're not always trying to make an exhaustive list of everything they saw, touched and did. So I don't know, because they don't give an account of, you know, I unshoot the sword of Laban and I thought, you know what? I'd smite someone's head off with this. Come at my family, bro. I mean, I don't know.
Richard I mean, I assume that they did that scene with Michael Serra from Arrested Development when he's playing the Star Wars music and he's in the garage with the lightsaber around. I assume that that's what they thought they would have done. I assume that that's what Martin Harris would do. And, you know, with just him and Joseph the Angel.
Gerrit Right, because there's only two of them there.
Richard Well, it takes him a while to dig the hole to bury the plates again. He's just, would you stop playing this?
Gerrit Yeah, put the sword of Laban down and it's not for you to play with. I mean, in all seriousness, though, I mean, they are going to talk about the fact that there's multiple, there's multiple things that they witness. It's not just the plates. And it's not just the plates. It's also an angel. It's not the place of an angel. It's also these other things that are going on. And they will give some greater or lesser descriptions. In fact, Martin Harris is going to give another interview, probably, you know, it's six or seven years after the first interview that we read. This one's not to a Latter-day Saint, though. This is to someone who is not a Latter-day Saint, who's just trying to learn more about what Latter-day Saints, what these crazy Mormons believe, right? So, the caveat I will put to that is, the person taking this interview is not trying to put Latter-day Saints in a positive light, because no one in 1859 is trying to put Latter-day Saints in a positive light.
Gerrit They are trying to mock them and make fun of them, and everyone hates them. And he gives this whole account of how Joseph Smith got the plates. So, he says, Joseph did not dig... This is the middle. The interview doesn't start here. Although it would be a very weird way to start the interview. Hi, Martin Harris, how are you? My name is Joel Tiffany. Joseph did not dig for the plates? That would be hilarious, right? But this is one of the points as they get into this. Joseph did not dig for the plates. They were placed in this way. Four stones were set up and covered with a flat stone, oval on the upper side and flat on the bottom. Beneath this was a little platform upon which the plates were laid. And the two stones set in a bow of silver by means of which the plates were translated, were found underneath the plates. These plates were seven inches wide by eight inches in length and were the thickness of plates of tin.
Gerrit You notice Martin Harris uses that analogy multiple times about how the thickness is like plates of tin. He did it in his previous interview, he's doing it again. That also demonstrates a little bit of consistency. He uses that as an analogy. I don't know how many people are like, oh yeah, I've got plates of tin in my backyard. I know exactly what you're talking about. When piled one upon another, they were all together about four inches thick, and they were put together on the back by three silver rings, so that they would open like a book. The two stones set in a bow of silver were about two inches in diameter, perfectly round, and about five eighths of an inch thick at the center, but not so thick at the edges where they came into the bow. They were joined by a round bar of silver, about three eighths of an inch in diameter, and about four inches long, which, with the two stones, would make eight inches. The stones were white, like polished marble, with a few gray streaks. I never dared look at them by placing them in the hat, because Moses said that no man can see God and live, and we could see anything we wished by looking at them.
Gerrit And I could not keep the desire to see God out of my mind. So, I didn't look at them, because all I wanted to do is to see God, and Moses said, no one can look at God and live. So, I'm pretty sure if I were to look at them, I'd die.
Richard It is interesting, though. You compare... So, Joseph has years of instruction from the Angel Moroni, leading up to him being able to receive them. I've got to imagine that for Martin Harris, he doesn't have to hear that experience.
Gerrit He doesn't have any of it.
Richard That's what I'm saying.
Gerrit He has Joseph telling him a few things on the side, essentially. So, yeah, and they're not angelic things, right? It's one thing to have an angel say to you, hey, Joseph, don't steal these plates. And then Joseph's like, I've got to steal these plates. I mean, as soon as the angel's gone, I'm like, who's going to find a way to steal these? I mean, so even Joseph is struggling when he's being given these injunctions by an angel. So what is it like when it's not him?
Richard That's what I'm saying. The temptation and the thoughts for Martin Harris have to be incredible.
Gerrit These plates were usually kept in a cherry box made for that purpose in the possession of Joseph and myself. Now, he's not right about that, because actually there are others who did see them. But at least that's what Martin Harris thinks, and that's the testimony. Of course, there's going to be the Eight Witnesses as well, but I think he's making this reference to while they're translating. That's probably a reference to Doctrine Come to Section 5, that Joseph wanted to show Martin Harris the plates, but the Lord said, no, he needs to have faith in these things before he sees them. At one time, before the Lord showed them unto me, Joseph said I should see them, and I asked him why he would break the commandments of the Lord.
Gerrit He said, you have done so much, and I am afraid that you will not believe unless you see them. I replied, Joseph, I know all about them. The Lord has shown me ten times more about it than you know. Here we inquired of Mr. Harris, how did the Lord show you these things? And he replied, I am forbidden to say anything how the Lord showed them to me, except that by the power of God I have seen them. Mr. Harris continued, I have did the plates many times, and should think that they weighed forty or fifty pounds. When Joseph had obtained the plates, he communicated the fact to his father and mother, the plates remained concealed in the treetop until he got the chest made. Which was all black and blue. So we hear the Lucy Smith story of Joseph running home with the plates.
Gerrit It's from Martin Harris in his interview, you learn that Joseph apparently is beat up pretty badly by this attack. He actually is all bruised up. Joseph knocked the man down and then ran for home and was much out of breath. When he arrived at home, he handed the plates in the window and they were received from him by his mother. They were then hidden under the hearth in his father's house. Now that particular incident where he hands the plates through the window, that's exactly how Josiah Stoll is going to say that he actually seized the plates. Because as they hand the plates through the window, he's there and the covering over them becomes a little bit dislodged in the transaction and he sees the edge of the plates.
Richard It's interesting though, he says that he hefted them many times. So there are likely many people that may have hefted them many times.
Gerrit And here's what you don't know. When they say I hefted them, do they mean I picked them up without any covering on them at all and leafed through them and kind of tossed them in the air and did some juggling antics with them? Or did I lift them under the cover, which is what you assume, right, that they're always covered? Or did I lift them while they were in the box? Because Martin Harris is also going to say, one of the things that I knew was that when I lifted the box without seeing them, when I lift the box, I can hear metal in them. And I know that Joseph's family can't even afford the cheapest type of metal to weigh that much, to have that much metal.
Richard They had to get a loan by the wood to build the box.
Gerrit Joseph bought his house from his father-in-law and couldn't make any of the payments without Oliver Cowdery and Joseph Knight making the payments for him on the house that he bought. It's good to have good friends. Speaking of which, that's why it's great to sign up for Premium. So, he's going to give a little bit more about the places where they hid these things, but he also talks about how he had multiple accounts about discussions with Joseph about the plains. The first time I heard of the matters, he was talking about the gold plains, my brother preserved Harris. That's his name. Preserved Harris. Smucker's Harris. Yeah, I mean, you get a lot of these Calvinistic names that come from the fact that, you know, you're hoping that God chose to preserve you, and that's why you get that name.
Gerrit Preserved Harris, who had been in the village of Palmyra, asked me if I'd heard about Joseph Jr. having a golden Bible. My thoughts were about the money-dickers that probably dug them up in an old brass kettle or something of the kind, and I thought, no more of it. This was about the 1st of October, 1827. The next day after I talked with my brother, I went to the village, and there I was asked what I thought of the gold Bible. I replied, the scripture says that he that answer the matter before he heareth it is foolishness unto him. I do not wish to make myself a fool I don't know anything about. Then said I, what is it about Joe's gold Bible? They then went on to say that they put whiskey into an old man's cider, got him half drunk, and he told them all about it. I think they're saying Joseph Smith's father. This is the claim from the money dealers. They then repeated his account, which I found afterwards to agree substantially with the account written by Joseph. So, you know, if you put a little whiskey into cider, you can find out a lot of things.
Gerrit I currently put whiskey in their Richard's cider, trying to find out other things from him. It's a lot easier to just ask Becky. They then said, I then said I to them, how do you know that he has not got such place? They replied, damn him! Angels appeared at men and this enlightened age damned him! He ought to be tarred and feathered and telling such a damn lie. Then I said, suppose he has told a lie. As Tom Jefferson said, it did not matter to him whether a man believed in one god or twenty. It didn't rob his pocket or break his shins. What is it to us if he told a lie? He has to answer for it if he has lied. If you should tar and feather all liars, you would soon be out of funds to purchase the materials. Martin Harris is saying that when this is first being brought up to him by people in Palmyra who are angry about it, who are calling it a blasphemy, his response, at least what he's saying in this interview is, guys, everyone lies about everything.
Gerrit So you think we need to go assault this kid and targ feather him when literally everyone around is lying about everything? It's kind of weird. Okay, so he's a liar. Everybody, there's no shortage of people that are lying about everything. As he goes on in his account, he is going to express this, what I had said before, which I think is a fascinating thing about what's going on in his mindset. Again, he's reminiscing back before he ever saw the plates, before he ever had this experience. When I was at Mr. Smith's, I hefted the plates. Again, it seems to be what he's saying is in the box. And I knew from the heft that they were lead or gold. I could tell. And I knew that Joseph had not credit enough to buy so much lead, which means there's no way he's buying that much gold, right?
Gerrit And I left Mr. Smith's about 11 o'clock and I went home. And I covenanted that if it was his work, and he would show me so, I would put forth my best ability to bring it before the world. He then showed me that this was his work, and that it was designed to bring in the fullness of his gospel to the Gentiles to fulfill his word, that the first shall be last, and the last shall be first. He showed this to me by the still small voice spoken in the soul. Then I was satisfied that it was the Lord's work, and I was under a covenant to bring it forth. The excitement in the village upon the subject became such that some threatened to mob Joseph, to tar feather him. They said that he should never leave until they showed him the place. So, interestingly, Martin Harris actually suggests that he's the one that says, hey, I know you ran off with his daughter, but maybe you should check in with Isaac Hale down in Harmony, because the people here are ready to become violent.
Gerrit So we're going to talk more about some of the other witness statements of these events in our next episode. Thank you so much for joining us.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.

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Well, I never had any intention of talking about the Witnesses.

GerritBanter

The pre-mortal life is the crux of understanding the planet salvation.

GerritInsight

When President Oaks says, a list too small to mention, he doesn't include Gerrit.

RichardBanter

You know what's more exclusionary than not being able to go to a temple ceiling? Burning in hell for billions and billions and trillions of years.

GerritInsight

So if you're listening to this right now and you're thinking, I don't know if I'm certain about the gospel, welcome to literally everyone who's ever lived. That is normal.

GerritInsight

We know who Jesus is because Joseph Smith saw and talked to him and received scripture and revelations declaring the nature of Jesus.

GerritInsight

I got a PhD in history. What makes you think that any part of me had any financial acumen ever?

GerritBanter

You know what, Martin Harris, we're here for you. And also, stop taking the 116 pages.

GerritBanter

Well, it takes him a while to dig the hole to bury the plates again. He's just, would you stop playing this?

RichardBanter

Joseph bought his house from his father-in-law and couldn't make any of the payments without Oliver Cowdery and Joseph Knight making the payments for him on the house that he bought. It's good to have good friends.

GerritInsight

More from this episode

Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.

Claim check

What critics say, and what the episode found
The Three Witnesses all denied their testimony.
The Three Witnesses only saw the plates in a vision, while the Eight handled them.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.

Take it to class

Ready to copy into a lesson or a text

Doubt is normal for everyone. What matters is where we take it: to antagonists who have no faith, or to the Book of Mormon and the Holy Spirit.

Restored doctrines like the pre-mortal life and a kingdom of glory for nearly everyone show a God far more generous than the hell of traditional Christianity.

Even outsiders recorded the witnesses' testimony early: a skeptical newspaper, Eber Howe, and an Indian agent writing to William Clark.

Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, though they left for a time, kept testifying for the rest of their lives that they saw and handled the plates.

Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.

Banter bin

The running jokes, for people who skip ahead
Witnesses of the Book of Mormon seriesPart five finally had them witness something, and Gerrit admits he never intended to talk about the witnesses; the Eight Witnesses are coming in August, meaning October, meaning 2027 (0:43, 46:58).
Richard and the sports bettingMarch Madness picks: Purdue to win it all, BYU to the Sweet 16, and Oklahoma State in the NIT, maybe the elders quorum league (1:17).
Oklahoma StateBYU keeps losing to garbage teams like the Cowboys (2:47, 6:09).
Guests we'll never getRichard will have his people reach out to Stephen A. Smith, Andy Reid and Travis Kelce (5:08).
Roger Williams at the Baylor gameRichard's shirt of Roger Williams welcoming Brigham Young to the Big 12; nobody at Baylor knew their founder (12:00).
Kudlow and KramerGerrit's reference to a show that ended before Richard's missionary son was born (24:49, 29:40).
Lucy Harris, the Wicked Witch of the RestorationMaybe "the enemy" looking for the plates in the woods was Martin's wife (44:22).
The tour runs like a topBecause of Becky and Angie; Richard and Gerrit just ask if they're in Scranton tonight (47:26).
Sword of Laban lightsaberMartin swinging the sword like Michael Cera in Arrested Development while Joseph digs the hole (53:01).
Smucker's HarrisMartin's brother Preserved gets a jam joke (1:01:43).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

Your question could be next week’s episode
Questions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
General ConferenceGeneral Conference talks that cite a scripture read in this episode.

In General Conference

Talks from the latest General Conference that cite a scripture this episode reads or names on air
October 2026 General Conference · cites D&C 76Come to the Lord in His Holy HouseElder Gerrit W. GongElder Gong lays out three doctrinal foundations for temple worship: eternal families, moral agency, and the Holy Spirit of Promise, which makes honored covenants binding.October 2026 General Conference · cites D&C 93I Am a Child of GodElder Hutch U. FaleElder Fale teaches that every person is a beloved child of heavenly parents, illustrating God's unearned love by showing his children their baby pictures: they did nothing to earn their parents' love and can do nothing to lose it.

Summaries, themes and lessons for every talk are on What Did They Say?

Go deeperWhere to read more.

Go deeper

Deep dives the episode points toward
The D&C 93 and nature of God episodes recommended for friends who are struggling (11:42).
Richard Cummins's 1831 letter to William Clark and the Lamanite mission's run-in with federal permits (38:02).
Martin Harris's 1853 Dille interview and 1859 Joel Tiffany interview side by side, especially his consistent "plates of tin" description (55:41).
Oliver Cowdery's 1848 return and rebaptism at Council Bluffs (48:44).
Joseph's house in Harmony, bought from Isaac Hale and paid for with help from Oliver Cowdery and Joseph Knight (1:01:43).
SOT Litner · S4E14.