SOT LitnerStandard of Truth listener companion
Of course we picked UConn
S4E15 · The Angel Gabriel and a Good Old-Fashioned Feet Dusting
0:00 / 1:05:15
14 chapters
← All episodes
Standard of Truth · Season 4 · Episode 15 · 1:05:15

The Angel Gabriel and a Good Old-Fashioned Feet Dusting

A stake near Lake Titicaca fasted for a way to get to the temple, and a week later Richard cold-called their bishop offering buses.

Press play above. The page follows along.
The question ·
Where do we learn that Gabriel was Noah when he was on earth?
Jacob (listener)

Gerrit surprises Richard by asking about his family's humanitarian trip to Peru. A stake near Lake Titicaca had fasted for a way to reach the temple, and the next week Richard called offering buses, so members spent long days doing ordinances for themselves and their ancestors. Officer R asks about the legend that Joseph cursed Cincinnati and that's why it struggles to get a temple. Gerrit calls that folklore, but tells how Joseph clashed with Campbellite leader Walter Scott there in 1831 and how D&C 60 told elders to shake dust off their feet. He adds that by 1839 Cincinnati papers were among the few defending the Saints. Jacob asks how we know Gabriel was Noah, and Gerrit points to Joseph's teaching on angels and priesthood keys, saving Raphael for next week.

Who comes upJoseph SmithBrigham YoungWalter ScottAlexander CampbellSidney RigdonWilliam BickertonNoahGabrielMichaelAdamRaphaelRussell M. Nelson
Now playing · 0:46

Of course we picked UConn

The hosts pretend they always had UConn winning the title.

Chapters

Tap a chapter to jump there

Transcript

181 moments · tap a time to play from there
Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. In this week's podcast, we're going to talk a little bit about Cincinnati. We're going to talk a little bit about Raphael, perhaps. We've got a lot of things as we get into the Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag, answering some questions, and then perhaps even getting to some of the topics from General Conference. It's a meaty show, Gerrit, we need to just get right into it.
Gerrit We have a lot, except there's something that we have to do first before that. And that is we have to lie about the fact that we picked UConn.
Richard We always had UConn, I had them in the interior talk.
Gerrit You can go back and listen to the other shows, and it's UConn first, it's UConn second, it's UConn third, it's all UConn.
Richard I said to myself, Bill Murray's son is an assistant coach. I love Ghostbusters, therefore UConn all the way.
Other Yeah.
Gerrit And I thought the same thing. I thought, you know, I mean, sure the guy on Purdue is 7'4, but I don't cheer for guys who aren't 7'6. If you're not-
Richard If his name is Taco.
Other Yeah.
Gerrit If you're not Taco Fall or Manute Bull or Bull Bull, I don't even want to talk to you. Yeah. I need more from my heroes. Actually, what I wanted to, this is unexpected. I'm catching Richard Unawares here. Yes. This is me surprising him the way he does with literally everything that he asks.
Other Like, hey, Gerrit, you want us to talk about puke me and stuff? He actually just had me go do a fireside exactly that same way. He's like, hey, what's going on next Sunday? I don't know. I don't really think I have anything. Hey, you want to come do a fireside? It was something like that, wasn't it?
Richard It was pretty much it. And we have the ward. It's a ward in our stake and actually there's going to be multiple wards. And we said we'd submit questions or people could submit questions. And 97% of them are about polygamy.
Gerrit And so I think if you have people, if you have people submit what questions, if you get 15 questions, 16 of them will be about polygamy, which seems weird.
Other You know, it's a whole other question that appears.
Gerrit But I like the fact that so I said, well, okay, I guess I'll do that.
Other The next thing I know, there's a flyer sent out that says, Hey, he's going to answer all of your church history questions, even the really hard ones. You guys should really come.
Richard I mean, it's literally what it said. It was sent out by the elders quorum president to all these wards. And yeah, I didn't, I didn't sign off on that, but I, you know, I know a couple of things about that elders quorum president.
Gerrit One, he has more faith in me than he should.
Other Two, he's not actually going to come to the fireside.
Richard No, no, no. Cameron, Cameron's going to come. He's a big fan.
Gerrit Okay. Well, so what I wanted to surprise Richard with is that some of you know, if you've listened to our previous podcast, that Richard and his, and his family just got back from a humanitarian trip that they took to Peru, that they self-financed and then got donations from really dozens of our listeners to go. They had a plan to go to Peru and not only take clothes and stuff to pour people there, they came up with a plan to find a place ridiculously far away from the temple and then try to take people to the temple. So it's a pretty miraculous story. Obviously, I can't take the long version, Richard, but why don't you tell people how this played out? Because it's pretty awesome.
Richard Well, so I will say, we didn't talk about it, I think on the podcast before. And I joke around a lot, but I'm likely to get verklemped here. It was the coolest thing I have ever been a part of. And it wasn't me, as anyone that knows me is well aware. It was not me. But we talked about it at the live event that we did the live recording in front of a studio audience. It was a lot of fun. And I talked about it and we received many, many, many donations to help people to get to the temple that have never been to the temple before. And we were able to get 118 people.
Gerrit Which required you to rent buses, correct?
Richard Yeah, we got multiple buses.
Gerrit I can only imagine that Peruvian buses are the height of bus leisure.
Richard Well, these, it was a red-eye bus there and a red-eye bus back. I gotta tell you, I mean, I don't know what percentage of talks were about the temple during general conference, but I feel like it was the same number of talks that you get questions about polygamy. There were 15 talks, 16 talks were about the temple. Yeah, it seemed beautiful. I will tell you, I mean, you did surprise me with this. Now I know how it feels. I don't enjoy it at all. I don't appreciate it.
Gerrit Try doing a live recording of your podcast against your will.
Richard No, no, no. Touché. Touché salesman. So there's a couple of things. I'll just really quick. First is a massive thank you to all of the insanely kind people that are listeners to the podcast that donated to that to help people who have never been to the temple or have not been to the temple in 30 years be able to go. It was incredible. That's number one. Number two, every one of those people that went to the temple, all of them are better than me by a gazillion times. They have more faith than me. They're kinder than me. They're more like Jesus than me. Every one of them was. And we had 35 youth that had never been to the temple that were able to come to the first time. And I was straight up drowning those kids. I did not, my Spanish is terrible and I didn't have the ability to tell them to just bend their knees and sit down.
Richard And they hadn't done baptisms since they were baptized themselves. And so they would go straight as a board and I would have to just shove them so.
Other Far down. And you couldn't just duolingo the words for bend your knees? You couldn't just say, hey, Carlos, how do I tell them to bend their knees?
Gerrit Carlos is from Peru and went kind of an interpreter.
Richard Yeah, he came, but he wasn't there in the baptistry.
Other Where was he? Wait, you did all this and got all the way to the temple and he just left? He's like, I've been here before.
Richard Look, there was a lot of logistics, man. Like we're trying to feed all these people. We're trying to coordinate all this stuff. It's crazy. These people-
Gerrit Explain how far away was it a ward or a stake that you were-
Richard It was well- So this was actually crazy. I don't know if I told you this, Gerrit. So this was nuts. So my friend Carlos, who's in our ward, he had done something like this several years ago. And my wife, who is like many of us, is much better than me, said, hey, we should do this. And I said, that'd be great. And so we reached out to multiple stake presidents and bishops down in Peru and no one believed us.
Gerrit So you cold called bishops and said, hey, we're some Americans. If you give us all of your information, I promise we're coming to take you to the temple. That was your plan?
Richard That's pretty much the sales pitch. Yeah, that was pretty much the pitch.
Other Was Carlos at least making the pitch or was it you?
Richard No, it was me. That was even worse. So anyway, my son is serving a mission in Lima, Peru. He comes across a bishop's phone number, random bishop that's near Lake Titicaca up in Puno and says, hey, dad, I came across this number. You should reach out to this bishop. So I WhatsApp messaged the bishop and I said, essentially the pitch that you just made, right?
Other Amen. We're a bunch of Americans and we want to come down and take a bunch of your people to the temple.
Richard Yeah. Yeah.
Other Yeah.
Richard He messages me back and he says, we just last week, we had been fasting as a steak to find out how we could come up with the money to get our steak down to the temple. We didn't know what to do. So we fasted. And then the next week, I get a call from this guy in Layton, Utah that says, hey, we want to take two buses of people to the temple. It was like the most miraculous thing in the world. And it was just one thing after another, after another like that, you know? And so we get down there and there's, you know, these people come in to the Arequipa Temple and they leave at like 10 o'clock in the evening. They get in close to about 7 o'clock in the morning. And they are at the temple for like 14, 15 hours.
Richard It was like the scene that you've painted before in Nauvoo, you know, when the saints are being driven and Brigham Young is...
Gerrit Yeah, Brigham sets a time. I mean, they have to get out because they believe an army is coming to kill them. And so Brigham is sleeping in the temple. He's doing endowments and it wasn't the shortened endowment.
Other Okay, he's doing the long form endowment.
Gerrit I mean, and then after that, you know, I mean, he's doing the long endowments. And so he's doing it all day. They're doing it. They're literally performing endowments to the point where they're about to collapse from exhaustion, sleeping for three or four hours a night, and then doing endowments again. And so finally, Brigham says, okay, we have got to go because they feel like if they don't leave before the ice breaks up on the Mississippi, they won't be able to get out. So he finally says, that's it. This is the last day. We can't do anything else. And he goes to walk away from the temple. And there are hundreds of Saints that are still lined up desperate to get their endowments. And he can't bring himself to leave it. He can't.
Gerrit He goes back and push the date and they go back and they just keep doing endowments. And it's a pretty powerful thing because it makes you wish that you had the same faith that the temple was so important to you that when you hear a mob is coming, you hear an army's coming, you hear if you don't get out now, you might not get out with anything. You might be killed, still just standing there outside the doors of the temple waiting to get in because there's something that matters more than my property and there's something that matters more than my life. And that's getting my temple covenants. So anyway, back to your story.
Richard From essentially, you know, 6.30, 7 o'clock until about 10 o'clock at night, just going through.
Gerrit So they went through for themselves and then they just kept going through for their ancestors.
Richard And again, and again, and again. And so the money that we was donated, that went to pay for the bus, it went to pay for the food, we may or may not have forgot about the garments.
Other And so we just got a whole bunch of people in down who don't have any garments.
Richard Well, it was so so they have a distribution center there.
Gerrit And it was essentially turned into the scene from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, which is which if you listen to the premium content, Charlie the Chocolate Factory is probably it is the most reference thing there is on the podcast. For those of you who are unaware, we have this the standard truth podcast is our free podcast and we cover church history topics and items. And we don't always surprise Richard like this. But we had people, you know, obviously there's a huge amount of cost involved in in hosting these and producing these. And we had people who, you know, offered to donate money to help keep the podcast on the air over the past four years. And rather than just do that, we thought, well, let's create some other content. We'll call it premium content, which is, I mean, that's the biggest lie. Pretty loose.
Other I mean, anything we create is premium.
Gerrit Like right now, the people listen, you're like, I don't feel like this is premium.
Other Well, there you go.
Gerrit But that way, if you feel like supporting the podcast, you can sign up for the premium for a while. And then that will help keep the podcast on the air. And so on our premium podcast, we were talking about the American Revolution, and somehow Augustus Gloop became Carl von Donop, the leader of the German Hessians. And, you know, that, I think that thinking about the, so the scene in the distribution center in the temple, they can't have a lot of garments there.
Richard But it was like, it was the scene when the guy that works at the candy store is singing, and there's all the kids everywhere. It was, it was, it was, it was all, it was awesome.
Other There was five garments out to everybody.
Richard Oh, no, it was, it was legitimately.
Gerrit So you had collected the money for that.
Other So you're just showing out all of your money by garments.
Richard I may or may not have hemorrhaged. So Becky, Becky was there. Carlos and I were trying to help them. They had never purchased garments before. And so they were buying them sizes way too big. We're trying to explain. Anyway, it was a beautiful comedy of us trying to help in the whole thing. It was, I will say this, we had many wonderful, incredible experiences. And the kindness and the love of the people that donated and then to the people that were there, it was literally the greatest thing I have ever been a part of. And it's not even close. And I will say that we've done some humanitarian stuff before. And we've gone to Peru before. And my sons did their Eagle Project there. And we took down clothes and food. And we left that very, very sad because it felt like we were throwing a pebble into the Grand Canyon.
Richard Because while we were doing something very nice, there was going to be tremendous need tomorrow. And we knew that. And you couldn't help but to feel that. But at the temple, it didn't feel like that at all. That's awesome. So anyway, for conference, to have those talks on the temple as we were coming home, it was just beautiful. It reminds me of the Savior talking as He's feeding, you know, the hosts of people, and you know, that they'll be hungry, but that He's the bread of life. And that was, it was a beautiful thing. And I wish that you would not have asked me about it, but it was very nice. The donations of the listeners was very, very good.
Gerrit How miraculous is it that you have this board and stake that are fasting to try to figure out how to get people eight hours away to the temple? And that's, you just happened to call that guy.
Richard I mean, my son, yeah, my son comes across a random bishop's number, sends it to me. I mean, the whole thing is ridiculous. It's, it's just the most ridiculous thing.
Gerrit It was almost as if God is in control.
Richard It's almost as though.
Other It's almost, almost as if he has a plan.
Gerrit So that's awesome. And I thought, I thought we needed to share that, but let's dive into the Phebe Draper mailbag.
Richard Yes. The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag. And here we go. So this comes to us from friend of the show, Officer R. Officer R. The curse of Cincinnati.
Gerrit This already sounds fascinating.
Richard Yes.
Gerrit I assume he means the Roman general, Cincinnati, who saved Rome and then retired to the countryside.
Richard I assume that he means the Cincinnati Reds not being able to repeat in 1991, winning the World Series in back to back years since 76. That's what I assume he means.
Other Is that a Pete Rose slight?
Gerrit What is that?
Richard Who may or may not have bet on baseball, even though he totally admitted betting on baseball. After the announcement of a temple to be built in Cincinnati last conference, I spoke to a good friend of mine who is from Cincinnati who related the curse of Cincinnati. By the way, Gerrit, have you been to Cincinnati?
Other Yes. I love Cincinnati.
Gerrit It's a beautiful town.
Richard Have you had the five-way chili at Cincinnati?
Gerrit I have not.
Richard They put spaghetti on it, they put cheese on it, they put meat sauce on it. The whole thing is a mess. They call it chili. It's not.
Gerrit What level of cardiac arrest is someone eating it going to?
Richard It comes with an angioplasty.
Gerrit Yeah, so they schedule you, you're like, and your appointment's tomorrow morning. Would you like a side of chips with that? Now your appointment's tonight.
Richard It's an abomination. It's pretty tasty, but it is an abomination. The legend as related was that after Cincinnati citizens rejected early missionaries, Joseph Smith told them to wash the dust of that wicked city off their feet as a testimony against them. And because of that, they have not been able to get a temple. They attempted to purchase land three different times for a temple, but it always ended up falling through at the last moment. That's why there are three temples within two hours of Cincinnati, but never one in Cincinnati. Is there any historical account of this? Or is this another Pittsburgh second ward? Oh, boy, that's funny.
Gerrit Nice call back.
Richard So on a previous episode, Jacob, who we have an email from that we're going to be reading. It's almost like we produce this show. It's all going to work together.
Gerrit There's no possible way. I mean, already people are like, what is this?
Other Why did I tune in?
Gerrit So Jacob, on a previous email, had heard that the Pittsburgh Second Ward was the oldest ward east of the Mississippi in the church.
Richard The Pittsburgh Second Ward.
Other Look, you could rename wards. Wards get new designations all the time.
Gerrit And so we responded to that by talking about where that might have come from. And another listener decided that that was a bit of dream crushing. And sent a meme that showed a small plastic airplane with a smiley face, a toy with a cartoon face, apparently carpet bombing the Pittsburgh Second Ward in my response to whether or not that was the case.
Other So Officer R wants me to carpet bomb another unsuspected group of Midwestern Latter-day Saints. I mean, I know that your work's taking you away from your family for a while there, Officer R, but I mean, you're striking out with a vengeance against those from Cincinnati.
Gerrit So look, when it comes to things like this, usually there's not a prominent thing that you can point to, and you can say, oh, this happened, especially when it comes to the, oh, the church tried to buy land three separate times and it always fell through. That's something that I wouldn't have the ability to know. First of all, that's 20th and 21st century stuff. Look, I'm 20th century right up until like 1985. Like right when Marty McFly takes off in the DeLorean, that's the end. Everything else is not history anymore, and so I lose it.
Other I just become some other political hack with a Facebook account at that point.
Gerrit So you'd need to talk to someone else about whether or not, and whether or not that would even be public information. Rumors like that fly all the time when it comes to the church attempting to purchase lands. I mean, my experience is that when the church decides they're going to put a temple somewhere, they do it. They don't just go, well, God told us to put a temple in Cincinnati, but well, chucks, the land fell through, and there's literally nowhere else we could look, so I guess we're done. Usually, that's not the case. But it might be. I mean, it may be they're like, you know, let's buy some land for a future temple, and that didn't work out. Of course, you know, now they're going to have one regardless. I wonder where that land is going to be. But let me say where this probably comes from. And I don't know. So someone listening might be like, oh, no, actually, in the, you know, in the early 20th century, there was some missionary who dusted his feet off, and that called it good.
Richard Well, so I would love it, actually, if it's on the Kentucky side, though, like the airport, you know, like it's like, hey, Cincinnati Temple in Kentucky.
Other So you want it to be a Kentucky temple.
Richard I desperately want it to be on the other side of the river, more than anything.
Gerrit Do you know how many listeners we just lost from Cincinnati?
Richard We're huge in Cincinnati.
Gerrit Well, I haven't even dream crushed yet, and you're already causing listeners to flee us.
Richard Look, who do they think they are to call it the Cincinnati Airport and it's in Kentucky?
Gerrit Who do you think you are? Do you think they wanted it that way?
Other They're like, well, we don't want the flight pattern over our houses. Let's put it over Kentucky.
Richard Yeah, we're too busy eating this chili with spaghetti noodles on it.
Other I'm going to have to try it.
Gerrit So in the early, early, early church, early, when the saints are first going down to preach in Jackson County, Joseph has a bit of a to do, a bit of a run in, in Cincinnati on his way down. So this is back in 1831. They've just received the revelation telling them to go to Jackson County. And on their way down, Joseph stops in Cincinnati because it's right there along the river. It's obviously the way that you would go. And he has a very contentious conversation with a disciples of Christ minister named Walter Scott. Not the same Walter Scott that was the poet, wrote about whales and stuff like that.
Gerrit This is the Reverend Walter Scott, who is a Campbellite. So let me read from Joseph Smith's history that portion. He says, on the 19th of June, in company with Sydney Rigdon, Martin Harris, Edward Partridge, WW. Phelps, Joseph Coe, Sydney Gilbert and his wife, I started from Kirtland, Ohio, for the land of Missouri, agreeable to the commandment before received. So they're commanded by Doctrine and Covenants, Section 57 to go to Missouri. So they're by, sorry, Doctrine and Covenants 56 to go to Missouri. And so they're going to go there. They're headed on down. And wherein it was promised that if we were faithful, the land of our inheritance, even the place for the city of the New Jerusalem should be revealed. We went by wagon, canal boats and stages to Cincinnati. So for those of you who don't know your Ohio geography, Kirtland is up by the lake.
Gerrit Kirtland is up. It's next to Cleveland. And Cincinnati is in the extreme southwestern. I'm doing hand signals as if this was a video medium. Richard, are the hand signals helpful for you?
Richard They're incredibly helpful. While I am relatively familiar with the Ohio geography, I've never been more just captivated by the way that you're doing the hand signals. You've skipped right by Columbus, pointing straight down to Cincinnati. It's been great.
Gerrit Well, that's because of Ohio State. I couldn't countenance Ohio State, and so I just skipped right past them to get down there. Well, so if you go to the extreme southwestern portion of Ohio, there is Cincinnati, and it's right there along the Ohio River. And of course, that continues further down eventually along Kentucky to Louisville and things like that, until you can get all the way to the Mississippi River. So the Ohio River is a very big, important waterway, and it's a natural thing when you're headed to Missouri to travel along those routes down to Cincinnati, where you're going to cross the river. Or, as is the case, many of them ride in boats and canoes along the Ohio River until they get to the Mississippi and then take the Mississippi up to St.
Gerrit Louis, if you can get a boat or walk up to St. Louis, and then walk across the state to where Kansas City is today. So this is the natural route they're taking on their way to go try to find Zion. So they don't even know where Zion is yet. They just know that they're supposed to go to somewhere out there, so they're going to go. Well, they begin their journey down there, and when Joseph gets to Cincinnati, he's going to have this, well, I guess I'll read it from him. I mean, he can explain his disagreeable conversation that he has with this Disciples of Christ minister. Now remember, Disciples of Christ are these people who, they are followers of Alexander Campbell. That's why they're called Campbellites. Alexander Campbell believed that there needed to be a restitution of the biblical church.
Gerrit They needed to get back to what Christ had originally stated, and they were strict Bible believers. If it wasn't in the Bible, it wasn't true. It had to be in the Bible, in the Bible, in the Bible, in the Bible. And so, there are early Latter-day Saints, many of them in Kirtland, who are followers of Alexander Campbell, people like Sydney Rigdon, who already believe that there's been a kind of apostasy, and you need to get back to the apostolic church that Jesus had, who hear the message of the restoration, and boy, it just clicks. So, from the earliest days of the Book of Mormon, the Disciples of Christ movement, it's sometimes called the Christian movement, that's what they call themselves, the Christian movement, they were at odds with Latter-day Saints, because the message that Latter-day Saints were bringing is, yes, there was an apostasy, just like you believe, and by the way, here's a prophet producing new scripture and revelations to explain how we get away from this apostasy.
Gerrit So, they are, they have very acrimonious relations early on. Joseph continues, We went by wagon canal in stages in Cincinnati, where I had an interview with Reverend Walter Scott, one of the fathers of the Campbellite or New Light Church. Before the close of our interview, he manifested one of the bitterest spirits against the doctrine of the New Testament, that these signs shall follow them that believe as recorded in the 16th chapter of the gospel according to St. Mark, that I had ever witnessed among men. We left Cincinnati in a steamer and landed at Louisville, Kentucky, where we were detained three days waiting for a steamer. And so he's going to talk about how they go on their way. Well, when they get down to, when they get to Missouri and then get across the state, they are shown where the location of the temple is to be. And then they need to decide what is it that they're going to do next.
Gerrit And so this is Doctrine and Covenants, Section 60, where these elders are asking, well, what do we do now? I mean, we came down here. Do we stay? Do we wait? But they wanted to go back home. I mean, it's harvest time. Let's get back home. We can get back home. Joseph Smith said that the elders inquired, what are we to do? And they received Doctrine and Covenants, Section 60 as a response, which is again going to reference this. It starts off, Behold, thus saith the Lord unto the elders of this church, who are to return speedily to the land from whence they came. Behold, it pleaseth me that you have come up hither. But with some I am not well pleased, for they will not open their mouths, but hide the talent which I have given unto them, because of the fear of men. Now, my guess is you may have had that quoted to you at some point on your mission, Richard.
Gerrit It's a good, let's scare the missionaries into making sure they preach Scripture, which is exactly what God is saying. There are people that are afraid of what man can do, and so they don't open their mouths and preach, and the Lord chastises them for that. Well, he goes on to say that they're supposed to head back, and he says, Take your journey speedily for the place which is called St. Louis, and from thence let my servants, Sidney Rigdon and Joseph and Oliver, take their journey for Cincinnati, and in this place, let them lift up their voice and declare my word with loud voices, without wrath or doubting, lifting up holy hands upon them, for I am able to make you holy and your sins are forgiven you, and let the residue, so everyone else, take their journey from St.
Gerrit Louis, two by two and preach the word, not in haste among the congregations of the wicked, until they return to the churches from whence they came, and all this is for the good of the churches, for this intent I have sent them. And then it goes on to give directions to other people. So Joseph, Oliver and Sidney are specifically told to go to Cincinnati with their journey and to preach there against the wicked. So Cincinnati is now factoring back into our story. Joseph had a rough time on the way down, and now the Lord is commanding them on the way back to go back to Cincinnati and preach again. So Doctrine and Coven 61, the next section, they're on their way back, and it's been a rough time. They nearly drown when their canoe nearly capsizes trying to go on the river, and this is the one that's very famous section that talks about the destroyer riding upon the waters.
Gerrit That's how most people have heard of Doctrine and Coven, section 61. But in it, they are again given counsel that they are to preach on the way. But this is what is said. And now concerning my servants, this is verse 23 in our current edition of Doctrine and Coven, section 61. And now concerning my servants, Sidney Rigdon, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, let them not come again upon the waters, save it be upon the canal, while journeying to their homes. Or in other words, they shall not come upon the waters to journey, save upon the canal. Meaning, no more river boating for you. You nearly died. A canal is a little bit safer way to go.
Other You want to get on the canal? Fine. That will work out great.
Gerrit But we're going to lay off the river for a while. And again, verily I say to my servants, as verse 30, my servant, Sidney Rigdon, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, shall not open their mouths in the congregations of the wicked until they arrive at Cincinnati. And in that place, they shall lift up their voices unto God and against that people, yea, unto him whose anger is kindled against their wickedness, a people who are well nigh ripen for destruction. And from thence let them journey for their congregations of their brethren, for their labors are now wanted more abundantly among them than among the congregations of the wicked. So this is very interesting. They are told, don't preach to any, don't go trying to missionary work, don't preach to the congregations of the wicked.
Gerrit Just get to Cincinnati. When you get to Cincinnati, then preach. And then when you're done preaching against the wicked in Cincinnati, you're not going to preach anymore to the wicked, but you're going to go to the different branches that you've already established and go preach to them to build up the members who are these new members that have just joined the church. I mean, there's a lot going on in there, right? But the Revelation tells them that this is what they're supposed to do, referencing the people there as being wicked. Now, they had already been told that when people don't receive them, that they are to cleanse the dust from their feet as a testimony against them. Now, that is not how Doctrine and Covenants, Section 61 references, you know, the way things ended in Ohio.
Gerrit And in fact, the city of Cincinnati, in my book, is going to make a little bit of a rebound, because in 1839, after the Saints are being murdered in Missouri, and they're being abused so terribly, well, Cincinnati is kind of this outpost on the way down there to Missouri, on the way to St. Louis. And the people in Cincinnati and the newspapers in Cincinnati are some of the few that are publishing things like, what is Missouri doing? Are they really just driving all these Mormons from their homes? Are they really just killing people? To the point where John P. Green, he's going to write a letter, June of 1839, he writes a letter to the Prophet, telling him about what's going on in Missouri, well, telling him what's going on in Cincinnati.
Gerrit And it seems like there's a little bit of a change. He says, it's with great satisfaction that I can address you at this time. Although I've been detained in this place much longer than I intended. He's writing from Cincinnati. I believe that the Lord has directed my way since I left Quincy. When I first came to Cincinnati, the doors seemed all closed for about a week before I could get a hearing. And at that time, but very few came out. For some said the Mormons deserved all that Missouri had done to them. And others believe what their priest said. But some came out and heard, as they said, the tale of woe for themselves. The Lord helping me to tell things in quite a systematic course. And the people with the doctors, lawyers, priests and drunkards all opened their ears and their mouth. And then their hearts were accessible. And when I had credulity, had no place in listening off several people, with others I spoke freely on the subject and declared that they believed all that I had stated in the letter.
Gerrit And then appropriate resolutions were adopted. This committee passed six resolutions that condemned the mob violence in Missouri. The committee promised to support the surviving sufferers financially and to help them regain their rights. The committee members argued that the story of the wrongs done to the Mormon people ought to be spread before the American people and the world. So that's at least what this one public meeting resolves. At the meeting, I was advised to publish my documents. A committee was appointed of citizens to examine the proof that was affixed upon the subject. This committee, after examining my papers, requested me to publish and accepted their invitation. And he goes on to say that he's done it. The sound of a Mormon representative in Cincinnati makes a great fuss here and also a far off.
Gerrit On the fifth day after I arrived in Cincinnati, my arrival was announced in the city of New York in one of the most noted papers in the Union with the strongest terms of disapprobation. Again, we can tell that part of what's going on here is this public relations battle about the Missourians have butchered the Saints, but then are claiming that either they haven't or that they did it in self-defense. Yes, we were murdering children, Hans Mill, in self-defense. We had to do it. There is a very pathetic invitation for the Mormon representative to soon appear on the Seaboard. Pathetic meaning a plaintiff, meaning they really want them to go to the East Coast so that citizens of the East Coast might have an opportunity to sympathize with them in their afflictions. At the same time, the Missouri Republican complains very bitterly that the editors of Cincinnati for their sympathies have expressed for the Mormons and accused them of that wicked and notorious crime that their leader Joe Smith pretended to hold converse with deity.
Gerrit So we see that the people are stirred up for some reason. But dear sirs, this course of things will have the desired effect. It awakens up the attention of the people to hear and to read and to know for themselves. And whenever these things are laid before them, every honest man must believe. For from the very nature of things, the former refuse of lies are swept away and the Missourians appear in their own garb of mobocracy. While the Mormons are stripped of that dark sable mantle of all manner of crime and wickedness, which has come from the pulpit and the press, and the credulity of the people allows them to believe the truth. And the church does appear in its own native plainness without partiality and without hypocrisy. It's a pretty powerful letter, huh? And so to me, it makes me say, look, I don't know what happened on the return journey in Cincinnati. Obviously, the whole town wasn't converted. But here, only a few years later, it is residents of Cincinnati that are giving Latter-day Saints a hearing and a defense that no Missourians are giving them.
Gerrit So when it comes to things like, oh, is there a curse on people? I mean, we talked about the Lilburn Bog's grave once, remember, on an earlier podcast. A lot of that ends up being folklore. A lot of it ends up being, well, I heard from someone who heard from someone. And it especially happens when you happen to live in the place that isn't getting the temple. I'm about to start inventing a folklore that Spanish Fork is cursed, and that's why we're not getting a temple. Which sounds pretty petty, as Richard tells his story. There's a 16-hour bus ride round trip, so you can't make it 20 minutes, Gerrit. No, I cannot. Not readily. It's too full. It's too hard for me to get in there.
Richard So that's very good. And that's why you're a dream crusher, but that's perfect. I do want to just point out, and now you said this about 20 minutes ago, you said Walter Scott, the guy that writes poems about whales. So that's Sir Walter Scott, the inventor and greatest practitioner of historical novels, wrote Ivanhoe, Rob Roy, The Lady in the Lake. He's that dude that wrote poems about whales.
Gerrit Look, have you ever read, I mean, he wrote a lot of things. He wrote a lot of things.
Other Ivanhoe is pretty epic.
Gerrit If you haven't read Ivanhoe, I recommend that.
Richard I've heard it. I haven't read it. I've heard it's great.
Gerrit You can watch a poorly done movie about it. Yes. It's poorly done.
Richard All right. So this next email in the Phebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag comes to us from Jacob.
Gerrit The same Jacob who asked about Pittsburgh.
Richard For Pittsburgh's second ward, yes. How do we know that Gabriel is Noah? So greetings, doctor and pre-doctor. This is brother, Dr. Brother Jacob. I wanted to let you know that I am not a Rigdonite or a Bickertonite.
Gerrit This is because we had speculated when he said, the congregation I belong to is the oldest congregation east of the Mississippi.
Other I was like, I mean, I guess it could be if you were part of Sidney Rigdon's bridge that he formed after that.
Gerrit And then of course, Sidney Rigdon's church excommunicates him and they follow William Bickerton. And so they become the Bickertonites.
Richard That's where that is a rough road for Sidney.
Gerrit It's tough to break away from a church and found your own church and then have the church that you found it excommunicate you.
Other Yeah, that's rough.
Richard It is. While I was in Pittsburgh, I was often asked if I, if it was hard to get used to electricity and gas-powered cars as a member of the Amish religion, I had to inform them that you inform them and you that I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I've heard the moniker of dream crusher before, but not until I experienced firsthand that I realized how truly crushing it feels to have someone mercilessly destroy your dreams. To paraphrase Joseph Smith, I have endured many episodes of the Standard of Truth and hope to be able to endure all episodes. One of my favorite series was on the Angel Moroni. I think that's a 57-parter. I found them insightful and informative. My question comes from Doctrine and Covenants, section 128, verse 21, where it lists the angels Michael, Gabriel and Raphael. Where do we learn that Gabriel was Noah when he was on earth?
Richard Also, do we know anything more about Raphael? Thanks for the time and effort you put into your podcast. It is enjoyable, especially when I have nothing else to do. That's a reference to my son who says the podcast is okay when you've got nothing else to do.
Gerrit If you're a missionary and you have nothing else to listen to, it's fine.
Richard As the missionary email requests keep pouring in.
Gerrit We did get several missionary email requests just the last couple of days.
Richard Yeah, just every day we get more missionary requests. It's actually pretty...
Gerrit We do feel like people are just creating false missionary emails at this point.
Richard Yeah, it's eldersoandso at gmail.com. Yeah, that sounds legit.
Other Why don't you have an LDS? Why don't you have a Church of Jesus Christ email address? Oh, in our mission, they don't do that. In our mission, they don't do that. What do you mean in your mission they don't do that? Yeah, yeah, it's a government thing. They won't let us do that. But they won't let you use AOL. I don't know.
Richard All right, so, Gerrit, Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, what do we know? How do we know it? How can you crush Jacob's dreams again?
Gerrit I don't want to crush Jacob. See, he made it so I didn't have to crush him. He just said, how do we know this?
Richard I know, he asked the question in a way that you don't have to, but if you wanted to...
Gerrit It just went anyway? It seems like that would be gratuitous at this point.
Richard It will be.
Gerrit So, I love On the Heels of General Conference. President Nelson's talk, he was very deliberate, and we talked about this in our bonus episode, in talking about why the church matters. And I shouted huzzah as I listened, because I feel like I do firesides all the time. I'm going to have to start saying no, my family doesn't know who I am, and then there's this podcast. And I often find people that are struggling with their faith, and they're focused on a lot of events. They're focused on, well, what about this in the past? Or they're focused on theologies, like we don't understand how ceiling works, or what about this or what about that?
Gerrit And what I find is that as they focus on those things, they often lose focus on the things that make the church great. I mean, for all the people who, hearing about how much money the church has, made their Twitter rant about how, why don't we just give all that money away and feed all of Africa for a day. And then write those arguments. Joseph Smith received what is radical theology. One of the reasons why you can't really classify Latter-day Saints as Protestants, first of all, we don't want to classify ourselves as Protestants, even though we desperately wish we were sometimes. We're always wishing we could just say the sinner's prayer and the next thing you know, we're in heaven. But Protestants, by definition, from Martin Luther, reject the efficacy of saving works.
Gerrit So Protestants are saying, salvation comes from faith alone. And of course, yes, you're going to get baptized because Jesus told you to get baptized. But the baptism doesn't save you. If anything, it's a sign that you must have been saved because you're doing what Jesus told you to do. But salvation is only by grace. It's not by any work. Similarly, you know, we'll have Holy Communion. We'll have the Lord's Supper, depending on what you call it. We call it the sacrament. But it's not an ordinance that has efficacy. It's something you do because the Lord told you to do it, but you don't do it because it actually is what wipes, you know, it cleanses you from sin. And so Joseph introduced in the restoration radical principle after radical principle from baptism is not essential to it's literally essential.
Gerrit There is no such thing as priesthood that is passed down hands on head that the power to act in God's name just comes from belief. Joseph instead is saying that authority is essential. Well, the Lord is telling Joseph that authority is essential and it has to be given. And so President Nelson in his talk on Sunday at conference, I loved how he highlighted that. If we didn't have keys, if we didn't have authority, we could be a great social organization that is charitable and helps out people and teaches good moral principles. And that's it. The keys are the essential part of the restoration. The knowledge is incredible. I mean, look, I love the knowledge from the restoration.
Gerrit And if anything, I'm guilty of privileging the knowledge we get from the restoration more often than I am thinking about the keys. I'm thinking about how great it is to know who I really am as a child of God, to know who God really is, to know that we are the same type of being that God is. The knowledge certainly sets you free, but the essential, the essential are the priesthood, keys, powers and the ordinances that come with that, because that's how you move from being saved from hellfire to becoming like your father in heaven. And so I assume that President Nelson's talk spurred Jacob to ask this question, because in Doctrine and Covenants Section 128, Joseph lists off many of the people who came and declared their keys, right?
Gerrit Joseph, there's a letter that he writes to the church. In all ages of the world, whenever the Lord has given a dispensation of the priesthood to any man by actual revelation, or any set of men, this power has been given. Hence whatsoever men did in authority in the name of the Lord, and did it truly and faithfully, and kept a proper and faithful record of the same, it became a law on earth and in heaven, and it could not be annulled, according to the decrees of Jehovah. Now the great and grand secret of the whole matter, the summum bonum of the whole subject that is lying before us, consists in obtaining the powers of the Holy Priesthood. For him to whom the keys are given, there is no difficulty in obtaining knowledge of facts in relation to the salvation of the children of men, both as well for the dead, as well for the living. He's going to go on to talk about baptism for the dead. But then as he begins to exult in this letter that he writes, what do we hear?
Gerrit A voice of gladness, a voice of mercy from heaven, a voice of truth out of the earth, glad tidings. What do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah. And he goes on to list the voice of Michael on the banks of the Susquehanna, detecting the devil when he appeared as an angel of light. The voice of Peter, James and John in the wilderness between Harmony in Susquehanna County and Colesville, Broome County on the Susquehanna River, declaring themselves as possessing the keys of the kingdom and the dispensation of the fullness of time. And again, the voice of God in the chamber of Old Father Whitmer in Fayette, Seneca County. And at sundry times and in diverse places, through all the travels and tribulations of this church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And the voice of Michael, the Archangel. And the voice of Gabriel and of Raphael. And of diverse angels from Michael or Adam down to the present time. All declaring their dispensation, their rights, their keys, their honors, their majesty and glory and the power of their priesthood.
Gerrit Giving line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little, giving us consolation by holding forth that which is to come, confirming our hope. So, here Joseph in this exultant letter that he writes to the saints. Well, he's in hiding himself actually. They're trying to extradite him again to Missouri on false charges even as late as 1842. He lists off these angels and that they all have their dispensation, their rights and keys, making it sound like they have come and they have given their rights and their keys. Now, the first part of the question is relatively easy to answer. To answer that, we're going to go to something that's sometimes called the Discourse on the Priesthood, Notes on the Priesthood. It's a discourse that Joseph gives sometime between the 26th of June and the 4th of August of 1839, in which he outlines a lot of aspects of the priesthood.
Gerrit So again, we're talking about keys. And so not surprising that here Joseph's going to give this explanation of these angels and their keys. Incidentally, I should say, there is anti-Mormon literature that specifically attacks the church on this point, on the point that Joseph Smith is claiming that Gabriel and Raphael gave him powers and authority. First, because angels don't have keys and power and authority to give. And second, Mormons, they don't call us Latter-day Saints, just so you know. Mormons erroneously believe that angels are resurrected beings that used to live on this earth. We have a whole episode on angels. You should go listen to it. Just because it's a radical doctrine that Latter-day Saints have that we believe that angels are resurrected beings that used to be people that lived on the earth.
Gerrit Christians don't believe that. They believe angels are creations of God that God creates out of nothing, just like he creates people out of nothing, but they aren't people at all. Even if they resemble people to carry out God's will, they are not mortals. They've never been mortal. They'll never be mortal. They weren't designed to be mortals. They are angels. They were never anything but angels, and they'll never be anything but angels. Well, in this sermon that Joseph gives, he explains the priesthood was first given to Adam. He obtained the First Presidency and held the keys of it from generation to generation. He obtained it in the creation before the world was formed. There's something you don't think about every day, that Adam has priesthood power given to him before the world is formed.
Gerrit There's something to think about because he's the archangel Michael, right? He had dominion given him over every living creature. He is Michael, the archangel spoken of in the scriptures. Then to Noah, who is Gabriel. He stands next in authority to Adam in the priesthood. So something that we don't talk an awful lot about is that Joseph here declares that Noah isn't just the head of a dispensation. He is next to Michael in authority among these leaders of dispensations. And we all know how big Michael or Adam is in our theology as far as being the head of the great priesthood meeting that will take place in Adam on Diamond. Then to Noah, who is Gabriel. He stands next in authority to Adam in the priesthood. He was called of God to this office and was the father of all living in his day.
Gerrit And to him was given the dominion. These men held keys first on earth and then in heaven. The priesthood is an everlasting principle and existed with God from eternity and will to eternity without beginning of days or end of years. The keys have been brought from heaven whenever the gospel is sent. When they are revealed from heaven is by Adam's authority. Daniel chapter 7 speaks of the ancient days. He means the oldest man, our father Adam, Michael. He will call his children together and with them and hold a council with them to prepare them for the coming of the son of man. Adam is the father of the human family and presides over the spirits of all men. And all that have had keys must stand before him in this great council. So he's giving a lot more about Adam here than he is about Noah and Gabriel.
Gerrit But this is how we know it, because it's a teaching that Joseph directly teaches. Now, as to Raphael, we're out of time. So if you want to hear about Raphael, you're going to have to listen next week and we can talk all about Richard's favorite Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle and my favorite Italian Renaissance painter.
Richard Well, I know that Leonardo leads and Donatello does machines. I know that Raphael is cool but crude and Michelangelo is a party dude. Those are the things that I know, and I can't wait to talk about them next week.
Gerrit Anyone listening to this podcast who knows the theme music that Richard was just quoting knows the level that we're at. I know we joke around a lot on here. We're serious and we joke around. We do both. But how great was it to listen to our prophet declare the importance of those keys? How awesome a thing it is to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We are so lucky because we're not any better than anyone else on earth. And yet we have this knowledge and we have this authority that's been given that allows us to work toward exaltation. Now everyone's going to get that chance. So it's not exclusive. Everyone's going to have the opportunity to be exalted. And that's one of the best parts about being a Latter-day Saint. As Elder Kieran said, God's building a highway to get as many people as he can to exaltation.
Gerrit So thank you so much for joining us. And we will hope to have you tune in to hear the exciting conclusion about Raphael and other Ninja Turtles next week.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.

Quote board

Make a share card from any line

If you're not Taco Fall or Manute Bull or Bull Bull, I don't even want to talk to you. Yeah. I need more from my heroes.

GerritBanter

And I was straight up drowning those kids.

RichardBanter

because there's something that matters more than my property and there's something that matters more than my life. And that's getting my temple covenants.

GerritInsight

And we left that very, very sad because it felt like we were throwing a pebble into the Grand Canyon.

RichardInsight

It comes with an angioplasty.

RichardBanter

Look, I'm 20th century right up until like 1985. Like right when Marty McFly takes off in the DeLorean, that's the end. Everything else is not history anymore, and so I lose it.

GerritBanter

We're always wishing we could just say the sinner's prayer and the next thing you know, we're in heaven.

GerritBanter

He's that dude that wrote poems about whales.

RichardBanter

The keys are the essential part of the restoration.

GerritInsight

We are so lucky because we're not any better than anyone else on earth. And yet we have this knowledge and we have this authority that's been given that allows us to work toward exaltation.

GerritInsight

More from this episode

Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.

Claim check

What critics say, and what the episode found
Joseph Smith cursed Cincinnati, and that's why it couldn't get a temple.
Angels are a separate creation and never lived on earth.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.

Take it to class

Ready to copy into a lesson or a text

A Peruvian stake fasted for a way to reach the temple, and a week later the answer called from Layton, Utah. It was almost as if God is in control.

Temple covenants mattered so much to the Nauvoo Saints that they kept lining up even as an army was said to be coming.

Joseph taught in 1839 that Gabriel is Noah, who stands next to Adam in priesthood authority.

Priesthood keys are what make the Church more than a good social club, and everyone will have the chance at exaltation.

Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.

Banter bin

The running jokes, for people who skip ahead
We always had UConnThey lie about having picked the champion all along, because Bill Murray's son is an assistant coach (1:13).
Everything is about polygamyOf 15 fireside questions, 16 are about polygamy (2:45).
Gerrit surprises RichardRevenge for every fireside Richard books him for; Richard doesn't enjoy it (4:01, 6:06).
Charlie and the Chocolate FactoryThe garment distribution center becomes the candy store scene; Augustus Gloop is now a Hessian commander in the premium show (14:22).
Officer RFriend of the show Officer R asks about the curse of Cincinnati, and Gerrit worries about him carpet bombing Midwestern Saints (18:46, 22:17).
Cincinnati chiliSpaghetti, cheese and meat sauce they call chili; it comes with an angioplasty (19:50).
Gerrit the dream crusherThe Pittsburgh Second Ward carpet-bombing meme, and Jacob says he now knows how crushing it feels (21:44, 47:04).
We're huge in...Richard wants the Cincinnati temple in Kentucky, near the airport, and they lose all their Cincinnati listeners (24:35).
Fake missionary emailsRequests from "eldersoandso at gmail" keep pouring in (48:31).
Teenage Mutant Ninja TurtlesRaphael is saved for next week, and Richard sings the theme (1:02:51).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

Your question could be next week’s episode
Questions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
General ConferenceGeneral Conference talks that cite a scripture read in this episode.

In General Conference

Talks from the latest General Conference that cite a scripture this episode reads or names on air
October 2026 General Conference · cites D&C 128:9–11Come to the Lord in His Holy HouseElder Gerrit W. GongElder Gong lays out three doctrinal foundations for temple worship: eternal families, moral agency, and the Holy Spirit of Promise, which makes honored covenants binding.

Summaries, themes and lessons for every talk are on What Did They Say?

Go deeperWhere to read more.

Go deeper

Deep dives the episode points toward
Walter Scott, Alexander Campbell, and why the Campbellites clashed with the restoration (29:07).
John P. Greene's 1839 trip to Cincinnati and the public campaign over the Missouri expulsion (39:45).
D&C 60 and 61: the return trip from Missouri, the destroyer on the waters, and why the canal was safer (34:27).
Joseph's 1839 discourse on the priesthood, and Adam-ondi-Ahman's great council (57:17).
The episode on angels as resurrected beings, for a fuller look at Michael and Gabriel (58:29).
SOT Litner · S4E15.