He keeps waiting for the paycheck to clear. There's no paycheck.
Standard of Truth · Season 4 · Episode 18 · 1:09:56
Lesser Known Heroes from Church History - Eliza Dana Gibbs Part 2
When Eliza Gibbs's daughter Medora died in childbirth in 1883, Eliza wrote to Wilford Woodruff asking why her daughter never came back to visit her, and he answered with a long, tender letter.
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The question ·
What happened to Eliza Dana Gibbs after she reached Nauvoo too late to meet Joseph Smith?
Gerrit
Andrea writes in about Gerrit's 'Calvin of camping' joke, which leads to his family's camper slamming into a tree, and Brian shares that his son was called to Gerrit's old Wisconsin mission. Then Gerrit continues Eliza Gibbs's story. She reaches Nauvoo in its darkest days and is left behind by the exodus because they are too poor to go. Mobs in Iowa hold Saints under icy river water, and her husband is jailed in a freezing log jail until a territorial judge sets them free. In 1857 they finally cross the plains with a Danish company, but the niece she raised as a daughter, Eliza Anne, later dies in childbirth, and years later so does her daughter Medora. Gerrit reads Wilford Woodruff's gentle reply to Eliza's grieving questions about the spirit world and ends with her lasting faith and a word to Stephanie.
Who comes upEliza Dana GibbsWilliam GibbsEliza AnneMedora GibbsWilford WoodruffPhoebe WoodruffBrigham YoungJohn TaylorJoseph Smith
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Auditions, week to week
Richard is thanked for coming back, and Phebe Draper Palmer Brown is saved for the millennium.
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530 moments · tap a time to play from thereIntro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.
Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. It's nice to be with you here today. Thanks for having me back.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. It's nice to be with you here today. Thanks for having me back.
Gerrit I mean, are we like doing auditions?
Gerrit I mean, are we like doing auditions?
Richard We are week to week. It really is week to week.
Richard We are week to week. It really is week to week.
Gerrit The biggest issue, it's not because whether or not I'm going to fire him. He keeps waiting for the paycheck to clear. There's no paycheck.
Gerrit The biggest issue, it's not because whether or not I'm going to fire him. He keeps waiting for the paycheck to clear. There's no paycheck.
Richard Yeah, firing suggests. So, Gerrit, we did a part one of Unsung Heroes from Church History. And so we're going to get back into that here. But we do have a couple of short emails from the Phebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag. We haven't done an episode on Phebe Draper Palmer Brown by the way.
Richard Yeah, firing suggests. So, Gerrit, we did a part one of Unsung Heroes from Church History. And so we're going to get back into that here. But we do have a couple of short emails from the Phebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag. We haven't done an episode on Phebe Draper Palmer Brown by the way.
Gerrit No, no, we're saving her. She's for the millennium. We talked a little bit about her and her Mormon battalion self.
Gerrit No, no, we're saving her. She's for the millennium. We talked a little bit about her and her Mormon battalion self.
Richard She is.
Richard She is.
Gerrit She is.
Richard She's incredible.
Gerrit She is.
Richard She's incredible.
Gerrit She is like essentially the, you know, the Indiana Jones of early Latter-day Saint history. And in a lot of ways, she's almost like she's like a Latter-day Saint Forrest Gump.
Gerrit She is like essentially the, you know, the Indiana Jones of early Latter-day Saint history. And in a lot of ways, she's almost like she's like a Latter-day Saint Forrest Gump.
Richard Like she was everywhere.
Richard Like she was everywhere.
Gerrit Yes, or everything you're like, oh, what about the Mormon? I was on that. You were a woman and you're on it. Yeah, I went the whole way too. I wasn't like all these other people that just like stopped off halfway or got tired. Oh, my feet hurt. I'm walking through Arizona. I don't want to go. Now she went the whole way.
Gerrit Yes, or everything you're like, oh, what about the Mormon? I was on that. You were a woman and you're on it. Yeah, I went the whole way too. I wasn't like all these other people that just like stopped off halfway or got tired. Oh, my feet hurt. I'm walking through Arizona. I don't want to go. Now she went the whole way.
Richard Came back, was a postmaster in Draper.
Richard Came back, was a postmaster in Draper.
Gerrit I mean, I know how she got the job named Draper. Interesting.
Gerrit I mean, I know how she got the job named Draper. Interesting.
Richard So this first email comes from Andrea or Andrea or I apologize.
Richard So this first email comes from Andrea or Andrea or I apologize.
Gerrit Yeah. We don't know how to pronounce. We don't even know. We don't know how to pronounce our own names, let alone anyone who emails in, you know, like, Oh, you actually have to put the accent on the N. It's on Andrea.
Gerrit Yeah. We don't know how to pronounce. We don't even know. We don't know how to pronounce our own names, let alone anyone who emails in, you know, like, Oh, you actually have to put the accent on the N. It's on Andrea.
Richard So part of the reason that we're sensitive to that with the last name LeDuc and Dirkmaat, our names are never pronounced correctly. And so we're, we're especially sensitive. I ran into a Dutch member of the church at the Leighton temple open house last year.
Richard So part of the reason that we're sensitive to that with the last name LeDuc and Dirkmaat, our names are never pronounced correctly. And so we're, we're especially sensitive. I ran into a Dutch member of the church at the Leighton temple open house last year.
Gerrit There's Dutch members of the church.
Gerrit There's Dutch members of the church.
Richard She ran into a mission companion of hers actually. It was interesting. I said, Oh, my best friend is Dutch. And I said, his name is Gerrit Dirkmaat. And she said, Oh, that's the most Dutch name I've ever heard.
Richard She ran into a mission companion of hers actually. It was interesting. I said, Oh, my best friend is Dutch. And I said, his name is Gerrit Dirkmaat. And she said, Oh, that's the most Dutch name I've ever heard.
Gerrit Oh, there you go. That's right.
Gerrit Oh, there you go. That's right.
Richard There you go. All right. So this comes to us from Andrea or Andrea. Hello. This is from an old podcast, but I loved that you called yourself the Calvin of camping, because as you were discussing the Calvinist doctrine, I thought this is the most depressing doctrine I've ever heard of. And then you talked about camping, which is a sore spot. My husband hates camping. I was thinking life.
Richard There you go. All right. So this comes to us from Andrea or Andrea. Hello. This is from an old podcast, but I loved that you called yourself the Calvin of camping, because as you were discussing the Calvinist doctrine, I thought this is the most depressing doctrine I've ever heard of. And then you talked about camping, which is a sore spot. My husband hates camping. I was thinking life.
Gerrit You're married to a good man.
Gerrit You're married to a good man.
Richard I was thinking life as a Calvinist would be depressing as life without camping. It was funny and meaningful to me and lightened my heart to hear the great dislike of camping is such a real thing. So, well, it's very nice.
Richard I was thinking life as a Calvinist would be depressing as life without camping. It was funny and meaningful to me and lightened my heart to hear the great dislike of camping is such a real thing. So, well, it's very nice.
Gerrit What a kind email to send in. Look, obviously a lot of what I do is a little bit facetious.
Gerrit What a kind email to send in. Look, obviously a lot of what I do is a little bit facetious.
Richard But you do.
Richard But you do.
Gerrit Oh, look, it's not because I haven't tried it. People are like, well, you let me take you up into how you went to this, and you'll change your mind. And I'm like, no. I mean, like-
Gerrit Oh, look, it's not because I haven't tried it. People are like, well, you let me take you up into how you went to this, and you'll change your mind. And I'm like, no. I mean, like-
Richard You're from rural Idaho.
Richard You're from rural Idaho.
Gerrit I grew up in rural Idaho. Like, we had campouts every month as a kid growing up. We literally, we camped out nine, ten times a year. I mean, and then my dad, I guess trying to relive his refugee status from World War II, he also liked camping. My dad, I mean, at one point in his life when he was a teenager, was living in a root cellar with no electricity in Kanab, in Kanab, Utah. And I don't know if maybe he just, he got a, he developed a taste for it, but he would like to try to go camping. And I will always remember the time, I shouldn't even tell this story, but you know, he's gone now, but he's probably listening.
Gerrit I grew up in rural Idaho. Like, we had campouts every month as a kid growing up. We literally, we camped out nine, ten times a year. I mean, and then my dad, I guess trying to relive his refugee status from World War II, he also liked camping. My dad, I mean, at one point in his life when he was a teenager, was living in a root cellar with no electricity in Kanab, in Kanab, Utah. And I don't know if maybe he just, he got a, he developed a taste for it, but he would like to try to go camping. And I will always remember the time, I shouldn't even tell this story, but you know, he's gone now, but he's probably listening.
Richard He and your mother are two of our top listeners.
Richard He and your mother are two of our top listeners.
Gerrit So my mom, still alive. Just if anyone's tuning in like, oh no, his mom passed away too. No, Renee's still alive. Or at least at the time of this recording.
Gerrit So my mom, still alive. Just if anyone's tuning in like, oh no, his mom passed away too. No, Renee's still alive. Or at least at the time of this recording.
Richard It's possible he's also astonished, like Elder Kieran's mother-in-law.
Richard It's possible he's also astonished, like Elder Kieran's mother-in-law.
Gerrit Yeah, totally astonished. We were at a campground in Chalice, Idaho. Do you know where Chalice, Idaho is?
Gerrit Yeah, totally astonished. We were at a campground in Chalice, Idaho. Do you know where Chalice, Idaho is?
Richard Yeah, I do.
Richard Yeah, I do.
Gerrit Beautiful hot springs, right up there. It is rugged terrain.
Gerrit Beautiful hot springs, right up there. It is rugged terrain.
Richard A friend of mine married someone from Chalice, Idaho, and when he told me that she was from Chalice, I said, wait, she's from there or she goes camping there? I didn't think anyone actually lived there.
Richard A friend of mine married someone from Chalice, Idaho, and when he told me that she was from Chalice, I said, wait, she's from there or she goes camping there? I didn't think anyone actually lived there.
Gerrit It's very nice. Anyway, so he was pulling it. My dad was backing. He would throw a camper on a camper shell on his old F-150 trucks that he would have, the 1970s one. And that's how we did most of our family vacations, was in this camper shell. And all the kids would just ride in there. You know, the one that goes over the top, like the bigger ones.
Gerrit It's very nice. Anyway, so he was pulling it. My dad was backing. He would throw a camper on a camper shell on his old F-150 trucks that he would have, the 1970s one. And that's how we did most of our family vacations, was in this camper shell. And all the kids would just ride in there. You know, the one that goes over the top, like the bigger ones.
Richard And you're just in the back. Does it have some bedding or anything?
Richard And you're just in the back. Does it have some bedding or anything?
Gerrit Yeah, up on the top. So we always would kind of fight to have the mattress that was up above the cab of the truck.
Gerrit Yeah, up on the top. So we always would kind of fight to have the mattress that was up above the cab of the truck.
Richard Oh, yeah, yeah, one of those.
Richard Oh, yeah, yeah, one of those.
Gerrit So you could sit up there and you could see where you were going.
Gerrit So you could sit up there and you could see where you were going.
Richard Wearing your seatbelts, obviously.
Richard Wearing your seatbelts, obviously.
Gerrit And then because you had the extended cab, you could always go into the truck.
Gerrit And then because you had the extended cab, you could always go into the truck.
Richard Yeah, right.
Gerrit But there was like the cushioning in between, and you'd open up, hey, dad, are we going to stop somewhere? You know, shut up, I told you to... I mean, I don't know. Probably that is what happened. Like, shut down, I told you to... You know, whatever. Anyway, my dad was backing into a camping... Sorry, a parking spot for the camper, and he totally slammed into a tree. And I mean, he didn't just glance off a tree and like, oh, looks like we scraped a tree. Anyone who's ever owned a trailer or a camper or a fifth wheel or anything has had branches of trees hit the side of it.
Richard Yeah, right.
Gerrit But there was like the cushioning in between, and you'd open up, hey, dad, are we going to stop somewhere? You know, shut up, I told you to... I mean, I don't know. Probably that is what happened. Like, shut down, I told you to... You know, whatever. Anyway, my dad was backing into a camping... Sorry, a parking spot for the camper, and he totally slammed into a tree. And I mean, he didn't just glance off a tree and like, oh, looks like we scraped a tree. Anyone who's ever owned a trailer or a camper or a fifth wheel or anything has had branches of trees hit the side of it.
Richard So I rented an RV. I took the family on a trip down to Southern California, Arizona, back up. And one of the things we did in Southern California is we went to many of the spots where The Office was filmed. And we went to poor Richard's pub.
Richard So I rented an RV. I took the family on a trip down to Southern California, Arizona, back up. And one of the things we did in Southern California is we went to many of the spots where The Office was filmed. And we went to poor Richard's pub.
Gerrit As opposed to Scranton. Which is what I was told it was.
Gerrit As opposed to Scranton. Which is what I was told it was.
Richard Well, so some of the things were done in Scranton.
Richard Well, so some of the things were done in Scranton.
Gerrit I feel like I've been lied to my entire life. Speaking of which, our tour is actually going through Scranton.
Gerrit I feel like I've been lied to my entire life. Speaking of which, our tour is actually going through Scranton.
Richard It actually is. So my family, we've been to Scranton as well. Sorry, I digress. So we're a fan of the show, and so we went to the Scranton locations. And then we went to the Los Angeles locations. And we were going to Poor Richard's Pub, and I drove directly into a tree that went right through the fiberglass on the side.
Richard It actually is. So my family, we've been to Scranton as well. Sorry, I digress. So we're a fan of the show, and so we went to the Scranton locations. And then we went to the Los Angeles locations. And we were going to Poor Richard's Pub, and I drove directly into a tree that went right through the fiberglass on the side.
Gerrit It cut into it.
Gerrit It cut into it.
Richard Oh, it drove right through. Yeah, absolutely.
Richard Oh, it drove right through. Yeah, absolutely.
Gerrit So you and my dad are kindred spirits.
Gerrit So you and my dad are kindred spirits.
Richard $3,000 in damage.
Richard $3,000 in damage.
Gerrit Yeah. My dad didn't have the budget to fix it, so he's backing into the spot.
Gerrit Yeah. My dad didn't have the budget to fix it, so he's backing into the spot.
Richard I didn't budget, hey, I'm going to crash into this tree.
Richard I didn't budget, hey, I'm going to crash into this tree.
Gerrit Well, so we were still in the camper.
Gerrit Well, so we were still in the camper.
Richard So was my family.
Richard So was my family.
Gerrit Right, so we're in the camper as it's backing out. I'm playing, I believe, He-Man with Dallin. We had Masters of the Universe, you know, toys. And all of a sudden a tree comes into the camper because he went into this tree. So you were asking about Calvin's tale. Anyway, Andrea, I mean, obviously, I look, I still occasionally when my wife forced me, forced me to go camping, I do. But a lot of that is obviously very, very tongue in cheek, but just a way of trying to get people to think about it. And hopefully, you know, you still, you know, whenever you're trying to figure out Calvinism and Arminianism, you think if you're bacon burning in the fire because God desires it, Calvinism.
Gerrit Right, so we're in the camper as it's backing out. I'm playing, I believe, He-Man with Dallin. We had Masters of the Universe, you know, toys. And all of a sudden a tree comes into the camper because he went into this tree. So you were asking about Calvin's tale. Anyway, Andrea, I mean, obviously, I look, I still occasionally when my wife forced me, forced me to go camping, I do. But a lot of that is obviously very, very tongue in cheek, but just a way of trying to get people to think about it. And hopefully, you know, you still, you know, whenever you're trying to figure out Calvinism and Arminianism, you think if you're bacon burning in the fire because God desires it, Calvinism.
Richard I had a conversation actually with somebody today actually about hell, and it comes up.
Richard I had a conversation actually with somebody today actually about hell, and it comes up.
Gerrit At work?
Richard At work.
Gerrit At work?
Richard At work.
Gerrit At work, you're like, hey, we've got to get those numbers. Let me talk to you about Calvinist hell.
Gerrit At work, you're like, hey, we've got to get those numbers. Let me talk to you about Calvinist hell.
Richard It was actually with a prospective client.
Richard It was actually with a prospective client.
Gerrit Oh, it's even better.
Gerrit Oh, it's even better.
Richard Would you like our services?
Richard Would you like our services?
Gerrit Now, even if you don't like our services. What are you thinking?
Gerrit Now, even if you don't like our services. What are you thinking?
Richard How does this come up? Well, I actually don't know how it came up, but he had talked about how he had at one time dated a Jehovah Witness, and he believed that their version of hell was the best hell.
Richard How does this come up? Well, I actually don't know how it came up, but he had talked about how he had at one time dated a Jehovah Witness, and he believed that their version of hell was the best hell.
Gerrit It literally is.
Richard And I said, sir, I would argue.
Gerrit It literally is.
Richard And I said, sir, I would argue.
Gerrit I'll raise you one.
Gerrit I'll raise you one.
Richard Yeah, I said, Latter-day Saint hell is the best of the hells, and it's not even close.
Richard Yeah, I said, Latter-day Saint hell is the best of the hells, and it's not even close.
Gerrit Because it's not hell.
Gerrit Because it's not hell.
Richard That's what I said. Because he's like, he's like, he's like, I like the idea, because he's, he's a, you know, he's atheist. He's like, I like the idea of, you know, someone as bad as Hitler and me just not existing anymore. Like that, that's hell.
Richard That's what I said. Because he's like, he's like, he's like, I like the idea, because he's, he's a, you know, he's atheist. He's like, I like the idea of, you know, someone as bad as Hitler and me just not existing anymore. Like that, that's hell.
Gerrit So your perspective business associate compared himself to Hitler.
Gerrit So your perspective business associate compared himself to Hitler.
Richard Well, he thought that as an atheist, he wouldn't go to a worse place than the worst person, I think was his point, or possibly he was a Nazi.
Richard Well, he thought that as an atheist, he wouldn't go to a worse place than the worst person, I think was his point, or possibly he was a Nazi.
Gerrit I think before you close the deal on this, you're going to want to know whether or not he's a Nazi. I feel like, did you tell him you were Jewish?
Gerrit I think before you close the deal on this, you're going to want to know whether or not he's a Nazi. I feel like, did you tell him you were Jewish?
Richard I did wish him a happy Passover at the end.
Richard I did wish him a happy Passover at the end.
Gerrit Okay, that's why he went there.
Gerrit Okay, that's why he went there.
Richard I don't think so. I did actually, I did close the meeting with a happy Passover. But anyway, so, but one thing that he said that I thought was actually interesting is he asked his girlfriend what heaven is, like what's the point of this, right? And she said, well, I mean, I'll live forever. I'll be able to explore the oceans and be able to explore the earth. And he said, okay, so a billion years exploring the ocean, then what? A billion years exploring the earth, then what? And it's funny, I've never actually heard of heaven put in that kind of a context before. And it was a fascinating actually discussion to think about of Christian heaven. I mean, for us, it's like, well, okay.
Richard I don't think so. I did actually, I did close the meeting with a happy Passover. But anyway, so, but one thing that he said that I thought was actually interesting is he asked his girlfriend what heaven is, like what's the point of this, right? And she said, well, I mean, I'll live forever. I'll be able to explore the oceans and be able to explore the earth. And he said, okay, so a billion years exploring the ocean, then what? A billion years exploring the earth, then what? And it's funny, I've never actually heard of heaven put in that kind of a context before. And it was a fascinating actually discussion to think about of Christian heaven. I mean, for us, it's like, well, okay.
Gerrit Now the work's just getting started.
Gerrit Now the work's just getting started.
Richard Yeah, now we got, what are we doing? A billion years, oh, geez.
Richard Yeah, now we got, what are we doing? A billion years, oh, geez.
Gerrit This was just the pretest.
Gerrit This was just the pretest.
Richard Yeah, if the entire purpose is the work and the glory is to bring, you know, to pass. Anyway, I thought it was an interesting way of Christian heaven that he's like, that sounds, all right, so after two billion years, now what?
Richard Yeah, if the entire purpose is the work and the glory is to bring, you know, to pass. Anyway, I thought it was an interesting way of Christian heaven that he's like, that sounds, all right, so after two billion years, now what?
Gerrit Did you try to teach him the King Follett sermon?
Gerrit Did you try to teach him the King Follett sermon?
Richard I jumped right into it.
Richard I jumped right into it.
Gerrit So like every person on my mission?
Gerrit So like every person on my mission?
Richard A little bit. So it was tough because I was like, well, you know, actually, so I said, this is not necessarily the right place or time, but we've already talked about hell. So, you know, we jumped into it a little bit. It was a fascinating thing. I've never gotten that perspective.
Richard A little bit. So it was tough because I was like, well, you know, actually, so I said, this is not necessarily the right place or time, but we've already talked about hell. So, you know, we jumped into it a little bit. It was a fascinating thing. I've never gotten that perspective.
Gerrit What did he say when you told him about exaltation?
Gerrit What did he say when you told him about exaltation?
Richard It was a fascinating thing that he'd never thought of before. Right? The idea of, well, no, the purpose of God is to bring us to this and the purpose of us is to bring, it's just this thing that, so eternities of this thing. And I had never, because when you hear a Christian describe heaven, well, it's just the most glorious thing.
Richard It was a fascinating thing that he'd never thought of before. Right? The idea of, well, no, the purpose of God is to bring us to this and the purpose of us is to bring, it's just this thing that, so eternities of this thing. And I had never, because when you hear a Christian describe heaven, well, it's just the most glorious thing.
Gerrit You're just in the presence of Jesus. You're praising Jesus. You're throwing crowns at His feet. At His feet, right. You're in absolute bliss and happiness with the Lord.
Gerrit You're just in the presence of Jesus. You're praising Jesus. You're throwing crowns at His feet. At His feet, right. You're in absolute bliss and happiness with the Lord.
Richard So I've never heard someone say, okay, but then what? And honestly, I thought it was actually a pretty decent question. It really was, right? A very thoughtful, you know, not bad for an atheist.
Richard So I've never heard someone say, okay, but then what? And honestly, I thought it was actually a pretty decent question. It really was, right? A very thoughtful, you know, not bad for an atheist.
Gerrit Well, I mean, I'm sure he's, I'm sure he's kept that in his back pocket to cross lances with these Christians, whatever.
Gerrit Well, I mean, I'm sure he's, I'm sure he's kept that in his back pocket to cross lances with these Christians, whatever.
Richard I'm sure he has, but I had never heard it before, and I thought it was interesting.
Richard I'm sure he has, but I had never heard it before, and I thought it was interesting.
Gerrit Well, thank you for that thought provoking commentary. Please don't make your husband feel too bad about his hatred of camping. For all you know, a tree came through the camper when he was a kid, and he's still dealing with the pain.
Gerrit Well, thank you for that thought provoking commentary. Please don't make your husband feel too bad about his hatred of camping. For all you know, a tree came through the camper when he was a kid, and he's still dealing with the pain.
Richard This next email comes to us from Brian. Dear Brother Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc, I have been a fan and listener since I first heard Dirkmaat on the Follow Him podcast. I love your podcast. It's been very informative and helpful to address sticky issues. I haven't about Angel Raphael as an example. It comes up.
Richard This next email comes to us from Brian. Dear Brother Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc, I have been a fan and listener since I first heard Dirkmaat on the Follow Him podcast. I love your podcast. It's been very informative and helpful to address sticky issues. I haven't about Angel Raphael as an example. It comes up.
Gerrit I can't swing a dead cat without a problem. You were trying to get a business contact. I was just trying to pick up some hot dogs at the store. Raphael came up? It's always like, man, I wish we just knew who Raphael was. Like, wait a minute. Luckily, have you read Tobit?
Gerrit I can't swing a dead cat without a problem. You were trying to get a business contact. I was just trying to pick up some hot dogs at the store. Raphael came up? It's always like, man, I wish we just knew who Raphael was. Like, wait a minute. Luckily, have you read Tobit?
Richard It's been informative, helpful. I haven't emailed you before, but Gerrit talks about Wisconsin Mission all the time. My son received his call tonight to Milwaukee. He is so excited. I have nothing to ask, but just wanted to thank you for your efforts and the way you address church history. I appreciate the Idaho humor as well as we moved to Rigby a few years ago.
Richard It's been informative, helpful. I haven't emailed you before, but Gerrit talks about Wisconsin Mission all the time. My son received his call tonight to Milwaukee. He is so excited. I have nothing to ask, but just wanted to thank you for your efforts and the way you address church history. I appreciate the Idaho humor as well as we moved to Rigby a few years ago.
Gerrit I bet they know where Chalice is.
Gerrit I bet they know where Chalice is.
Richard Of course. We love the Lord, his church and his prophet.
Richard Of course. We love the Lord, his church and his prophet.
Gerrit Oh, that's awesome. Thank you so much. And you know what? I don't know your son's name, Brian, but tell him, look, it's going to be a difficult mission, but they have like 20 more members there now than they did 20 years ago. Oh, wow. I mean, that's...
Gerrit Oh, that's awesome. Thank you so much. And you know what? I don't know your son's name, Brian, but tell him, look, it's going to be a difficult mission, but they have like 20 more members there now than they did 20 years ago. Oh, wow. I mean, that's...
Richard They announced the temple?
Gerrit No, no. People moved in. People moved in. But here's the thing. You know, people go on missions. Some go to places where they baptize every other day. Some go to places where no one listens to them at all. Some go places where they, you know... Everyone is willing to hear, but no one's willing to commit. No one keeps their commitments. Some people go places where no one listens at all. But if ever anyone does, they do keep their commitments. And, you know, wherever you end up serving the Lord, the most important thing is that you go with a desperate desire to love the people that you're around and to try to help them understand who they really are, why they're here in this world, this veil of tears, and to help remind them of what they have forgotten because of the veil.
Richard They announced the temple?
Gerrit No, no. People moved in. People moved in. But here's the thing. You know, people go on missions. Some go to places where they baptize every other day. Some go to places where no one listens to them at all. Some go places where they, you know... Everyone is willing to hear, but no one's willing to commit. No one keeps their commitments. Some people go places where no one listens at all. But if ever anyone does, they do keep their commitments. And, you know, wherever you end up serving the Lord, the most important thing is that you go with a desperate desire to love the people that you're around and to try to help them understand who they really are, why they're here in this world, this veil of tears, and to help remind them of what they have forgotten because of the veil.
Gerrit That we are children of heavenly parents who love us. We're here so that we can become like them. Yeah, I had a lot of negative experiences in Wisconsin, but I also witnessed miracles. I also experienced things that transformed who I was, and I could safely say that had I not gone to Wisconsin on my mission, I do not believe I would have ever become a religious historian. I always loved history, but it was my mission in Wisconsin that pushed me towards the direction of not just generic history, but what about the history of the kingdom of God on earth? And so tell your son to go find those same investigators that probably are still living in the same houses, who didn't show up for their baptism date, and tell them I sent them, and let's see if we can get those people in the water.
Gerrit That we are children of heavenly parents who love us. We're here so that we can become like them. Yeah, I had a lot of negative experiences in Wisconsin, but I also witnessed miracles. I also experienced things that transformed who I was, and I could safely say that had I not gone to Wisconsin on my mission, I do not believe I would have ever become a religious historian. I always loved history, but it was my mission in Wisconsin that pushed me towards the direction of not just generic history, but what about the history of the kingdom of God on earth? And so tell your son to go find those same investigators that probably are still living in the same houses, who didn't show up for their baptism date, and tell them I sent them, and let's see if we can get those people in the water.
Gerrit But in all honesty, tell them thank you for being willing to serve, and he'll love those people. He'll love them. He'll have a hard time at times. He'll have some great times at others. I don't recommend the cow tongue, but other than that.
Gerrit But in all honesty, tell them thank you for being willing to serve, and he'll love those people. He'll love them. He'll have a hard time at times. He'll have some great times at others. I don't recommend the cow tongue, but other than that.
Richard And have him send us his email, and we'll give him access to the premium stuff. And he's like, no, no, no, I'm good. No, no, no.
Richard And have him send us his email, and we'll give him access to the premium stuff. And he's like, no, no, no, I'm good. No, no, no.
Gerrit No, no, you're sending it. You're taking it. He's like, I honestly don't really want to listen. Look, no one wants to listen until they're in the dungeon of Waukesha, Wisconsin. And then.
Gerrit No, no, you're sending it. You're taking it. He's like, I honestly don't really want to listen. Look, no one wants to listen until they're in the dungeon of Waukesha, Wisconsin. And then.
Richard Jordan Love, being a Utah state quarterback, is only going to help things. Now, Jordan Love himself is not a, he's not a ladder in the same, but he's from Utah.
Richard Jordan Love, being a Utah state quarterback, is only going to help things. Now, Jordan Love himself is not a, he's not a ladder in the same, but he's from Utah.
Gerrit But people heard the state Utah.
Gerrit But people heard the state Utah.
Richard That's what I'm saying.
Richard That's what I'm saying.
Gerrit It is funny when I told people in Wisconsin that I was from Idaho, it didn't matter how slowly and carefully I said that, the response was still-
Gerrit It is funny when I told people in Wisconsin that I was from Idaho, it didn't matter how slowly and carefully I said that, the response was still-
Richard Des Moines?
Richard Des Moines?
Gerrit Iowa. Yep.
Gerrit Iowa. Yep.
Richard I got the same in California.
Richard I got the same in California.
Gerrit It was crazy. I was like, I was like, oh, where are you from? Oh, I'm from Idaho. Oh, by Des Moines?
Gerrit It was crazy. I was like, I was like, oh, where are you from? Oh, I'm from Idaho. Oh, by Des Moines?
Richard By there?
Gerrit I mean, yeah, roughly 1500 miles away from there. But yeah, I mean, it's in the ballpark. I mean, if you're talking to someone who's a tourist from another country and they ask where you're from, you're like, Los Angeles. Like, oh, you live in LA? Yeah, because the only two places you know are LA and New York.
Richard By there?
Gerrit I mean, yeah, roughly 1500 miles away from there. But yeah, I mean, it's in the ballpark. I mean, if you're talking to someone who's a tourist from another country and they ask where you're from, you're like, Los Angeles. Like, oh, you live in LA? Yeah, because the only two places you know are LA and New York.
Richard Vegas. I've started doing Vegas. People know Vegas.
Richard Vegas. I've started doing Vegas. People know Vegas.
Gerrit Yeah, you're like, I'm just a hop skip and a six hour drive outside of Vegas.
Gerrit Yeah, you're like, I'm just a hop skip and a six hour drive outside of Vegas.
Richard Idaho in California was tough because we're almost bordering California. So for them to not know that Idaho is a state is staggering.
Richard Idaho in California was tough because we're almost bordering California. So for them to not know that Idaho is a state is staggering.
Gerrit Where Wisconsin was more...
Gerrit Where Wisconsin was more...
Richard It's further away.
Richard It's further away.
Gerrit Although if you live in Idaho now, here's going to be the number one crazy thing that you will notice when you go out there. There's no irrigation systems.
Gerrit Although if you live in Idaho now, here's going to be the number one crazy thing that you will notice when you go out there. There's no irrigation systems.
Richard Yeah, it's stunning.
Richard Yeah, it's stunning.
Gerrit Like at all. And when I was there, there was even a drought, and everyone was very worried about the drought. There's standing water literally everywhere you look. It's a mosquitoes paradise. I mean, there are lakes everywhere. There's water everywhere. Farmers are like, I don't know what we're going to do. Corn is going to burn out. You're like, just get a pump, man. We could do this by hand.
Gerrit Like at all. And when I was there, there was even a drought, and everyone was very worried about the drought. There's standing water literally everywhere you look. It's a mosquitoes paradise. I mean, there are lakes everywhere. There's water everywhere. Farmers are like, I don't know what we're going to do. Corn is going to burn out. You're like, just get a pump, man. We could do this by hand.
Richard I remember the first time I flew out to Missouri. I was flying out, sitting next to a teacher whose husband was a farmer. And we're flying over these fields. And I was a young man. And I said, where is your irrigation? And she said, irrigation? We don't use irrigation. And I said, well, how do you water your crops? And she said, it rains. And I'm like, it rains? What are you talking about?
Richard I remember the first time I flew out to Missouri. I was flying out, sitting next to a teacher whose husband was a farmer. And we're flying over these fields. And I was a young man. And I said, where is your irrigation? And she said, irrigation? We don't use irrigation. And I said, well, how do you water your crops? And she said, it rains. And I'm like, it rains? What are you talking about?
Gerrit Growing up in Idaho, I didn't realize how little it rained compared to everywhere else on earth. And I mean like the Sahara desert. And so yeah, that is one thing. So he's going to go from a place. Now, here's the nice thing. If your son likes sports, overnight, he's going to become like 20% better at them. Because he's going from Idaho to sea level. It's like 60 feet above sea level. And you go play your pickup games at the Y, and suddenly, like, boy, this guy can run all day. Yeah, because his lungs are like, I've never had oxygen before. This is the greatest thing of my life. Anyway, thanks so much, Myron, and tell your son thank you for being willing to serve.
Gerrit Growing up in Idaho, I didn't realize how little it rained compared to everywhere else on earth. And I mean like the Sahara desert. And so yeah, that is one thing. So he's going to go from a place. Now, here's the nice thing. If your son likes sports, overnight, he's going to become like 20% better at them. Because he's going from Idaho to sea level. It's like 60 feet above sea level. And you go play your pickup games at the Y, and suddenly, like, boy, this guy can run all day. Yeah, because his lungs are like, I've never had oxygen before. This is the greatest thing of my life. Anyway, thanks so much, Myron, and tell your son thank you for being willing to serve.
Richard Well, so now we are on to...
Richard Well, so now we are on to...
Gerrit The second half.
Gerrit The second half.
Richard The second half of Eliza Dana-Gibbs.
Richard The second half of Eliza Dana-Gibbs.
Gerrit Yeah, so to recap, if you haven't listened to the last episode, I recommend that you go do it, because we introduced Eliza Gibbs and her awesome conversion story, miraculous conversion story. And some of the difficulties that she had in standing up for what was right, even though there was so much opposition from her family, we talked about, we ended off talking about how she came to Nauvoo and they get there right after Joseph is murdered. So she never actually gets to meet Joseph. Well, and then there's the tragedy of the fact that while she gets very sick and almost dies, her sister who joined the church with her does die, as well as her sister's baby, but her sister has a young daughter named Eliza, and named after named after Eliza herself. And Eliza is going to raise Eliza, and basically as her own child.
Gerrit Yeah, so to recap, if you haven't listened to the last episode, I recommend that you go do it, because we introduced Eliza Gibbs and her awesome conversion story, miraculous conversion story. And some of the difficulties that she had in standing up for what was right, even though there was so much opposition from her family, we talked about, we ended off talking about how she came to Nauvoo and they get there right after Joseph is murdered. So she never actually gets to meet Joseph. Well, and then there's the tragedy of the fact that while she gets very sick and almost dies, her sister who joined the church with her does die, as well as her sister's baby, but her sister has a young daughter named Eliza, and named after named after Eliza herself. And Eliza is going to raise Eliza, and basically as her own child.
Gerrit And so they are getting to Nauvoo, not for the heady days of of let's, you know, get the first wall up on that temple. And here's the doctrine of baptism for the dead. They're arriving in Nauvoo for the heady days of let's burn down all your crops and threaten to kill everyone. And so almost immediately after they get there, they then have to transition into preparing to leave. And it's a very difficult, a difficult thing because getting to Nauvoo, they already had almost nothing. Well, now the job that her husband had, his trade was that he was a carpenter who built houses. Talk about all time bad timing. It's like someone who's trying to sell mortgages when the interest rate spikes and the housing market goes through the roof.
Gerrit And so they are getting to Nauvoo, not for the heady days of of let's, you know, get the first wall up on that temple. And here's the doctrine of baptism for the dead. They're arriving in Nauvoo for the heady days of let's burn down all your crops and threaten to kill everyone. And so almost immediately after they get there, they then have to transition into preparing to leave. And it's a very difficult, a difficult thing because getting to Nauvoo, they already had almost nothing. Well, now the job that her husband had, his trade was that he was a carpenter who built houses. Talk about all time bad timing. It's like someone who's trying to sell mortgages when the interest rate spikes and the housing market goes through the roof.
Gerrit It's like, hey, anyone want to refinance? Refinance at 9%? What are you talking about? I know it's not that high, but we're going to have multiple mortgage brokers email the podcast and say, it's not 9%. I know, I know, it's not 9%.
Gerrit It's like, hey, anyone want to refinance? Refinance at 9%? What are you talking about? I know it's not that high, but we're going to have multiple mortgage brokers email the podcast and say, it's not 9%. I know, I know, it's not 9%.
Richard It depends.
Richard It depends.
Gerrit What, my credit's low? I like how you assume that any mortgage lender listening assumes my credit rating is south of 600. That's what I like. Well, you're a teacher, right? It is true. And not just a teacher, I teach religion. I'm a history teacher that teaches religion. Everybody knows those guys are well off. Everybody's like, oh yeah, yeah, he's getting a nice fat paycheck. So anyway, her husband is a carpenter. Well, everyone's preparing to leave. He's a carpenter especially who builds houses, right? So everyone's getting ready to leave Nauvoo, not build houses. I don't know if he ended up getting some work through other means, but he was working on the temple. So he put some of his carpentry skills to work on the completion of the temple. Of course, by this time, they're really trying to complete the stuff inside of the temple. And all the while, this persecution is going on. She's going to give birth to a child.
Gerrit What, my credit's low? I like how you assume that any mortgage lender listening assumes my credit rating is south of 600. That's what I like. Well, you're a teacher, right? It is true. And not just a teacher, I teach religion. I'm a history teacher that teaches religion. Everybody knows those guys are well off. Everybody's like, oh yeah, yeah, he's getting a nice fat paycheck. So anyway, her husband is a carpenter. Well, everyone's preparing to leave. He's a carpenter especially who builds houses, right? So everyone's getting ready to leave Nauvoo, not build houses. I don't know if he ended up getting some work through other means, but he was working on the temple. So he put some of his carpentry skills to work on the completion of the temple. Of course, by this time, they're really trying to complete the stuff inside of the temple. And all the while, this persecution is going on. She's going to give birth to a child.
Gerrit Remember, she has a child that she's adopted basically, her sister's child. This is what she writes in her autobiography. Those were days long to be remembered, as indeed were all the days in Nauvoo, filled up with the bitter trials and deep sorrow and mourning. But the Lord strengthened us to struggle through, as he did many others. So it kind of gives you an idea of what it was like. Imagine joining the church, desperate to meet the Prophet Joseph Smith, leaving your family, having them all throw you aside, desperately trying to get to Nauvoo, only to get there after Joseph's dead, and you've got rampant mobs, just desperately trying to kill people and to drive the saints from the county. She writes, In the fall, the mob commenced to drive the saints from their settlements in the country, burning their houses, their grain, and shooting down their cattle and stock of all kinds.
Gerrit Remember, she has a child that she's adopted basically, her sister's child. This is what she writes in her autobiography. Those were days long to be remembered, as indeed were all the days in Nauvoo, filled up with the bitter trials and deep sorrow and mourning. But the Lord strengthened us to struggle through, as he did many others. So it kind of gives you an idea of what it was like. Imagine joining the church, desperate to meet the Prophet Joseph Smith, leaving your family, having them all throw you aside, desperately trying to get to Nauvoo, only to get there after Joseph's dead, and you've got rampant mobs, just desperately trying to kill people and to drive the saints from the county. She writes, In the fall, the mob commenced to drive the saints from their settlements in the country, burning their houses, their grain, and shooting down their cattle and stock of all kinds.
Gerrit So these saints, she writes, they fled to Nauvoo for a refuge, until every house was filled overflowing. So in all the outlying areas of Nauvoo, places like Yell Rome and Lima, you have the Latter-day Saints who are living in these areas being driven out by these lawless, murderous mobs, burning down their houses. Eventually, they're going to start killing people. And so this is the experience that they have. The house we lived in, they don't live in their own house. The house we lived in was owned by a man who lived in the country and wanted the house. There was not a house or room worthy to name to be rented for any price. And we had to take shelter in a place that was little more than a shelter. It was a clapboarded on outside, but not plastered on the inside. So it's just literally clapboards. No insulation, no, I mean, if you've ever been to Nauvoo in the wintertime, it's not exactly like, it's not Queen Creek, Arizona in the wintertime, just so everyone's aware.
Gerrit So these saints, she writes, they fled to Nauvoo for a refuge, until every house was filled overflowing. So in all the outlying areas of Nauvoo, places like Yell Rome and Lima, you have the Latter-day Saints who are living in these areas being driven out by these lawless, murderous mobs, burning down their houses. Eventually, they're going to start killing people. And so this is the experience that they have. The house we lived in, they don't live in their own house. The house we lived in was owned by a man who lived in the country and wanted the house. There was not a house or room worthy to name to be rented for any price. And we had to take shelter in a place that was little more than a shelter. It was a clapboarded on outside, but not plastered on the inside. So it's just literally clapboards. No insulation, no, I mean, if you've ever been to Nauvoo in the wintertime, it's not exactly like, it's not Queen Creek, Arizona in the wintertime, just so everyone's aware.
Gerrit It is an hard climate. Let me say that. Have you ever been there in the winter, Richard?
Gerrit It is an hard climate. Let me say that. Have you ever been there in the winter, Richard?
Richard I have, actually.
Richard I have, actually.
Gerrit Yeah. What did it feel like?
Gerrit Yeah. What did it feel like?
Richard It was very, very cold. The wind whipped off the old River Aroo, and you were very cold.
Richard It was very, very cold. The wind whipped off the old River Aroo, and you were very cold.
Gerrit There's several places in the journals that you read where it's so cold in the wintertime that you go to pour out the water from the wash basin to wash your face in the morning, but it's frozen. So if the water in your pitcher to wash your face is frozen solid inside your house, how cold is your house? Yeah.
Gerrit There's several places in the journals that you read where it's so cold in the wintertime that you go to pour out the water from the wash basin to wash your face in the morning, but it's frozen. So if the water in your pitcher to wash your face is frozen solid inside your house, how cold is your house? Yeah.
Richard I mean, you grew up in eastern Idaho.
Richard I mean, you grew up in eastern Idaho.
Gerrit Right.
Richard You're familiar with the cold, but it's next level with the humidity.
Gerrit Right.
Richard You're familiar with the cold, but it's next level with the humidity.
Gerrit Yeah, because it's super humid, and yeah, it's very much like Wisconsin in that regard. Super humid, and so the cold just really cuts through you. So as winter comes on, this is a much more difficult thing, and so she's explaining what meager circumstances they lived in. Her mother, remember the mother who eventually tried to prove that the church was false but then proved it true by reading the Bible, has come with them. She says, mother was quite aged, and she had to sit in the big armchair wrapped in a bed quilt and hold Josiah close to the fire, that's her son, to keep him from freezing. Okay, so it's so cold in the winter, you literally have to sit next to the fire in order to keep any kind of warmth going on. So she writes about how bad it is, and then she says, still, our situation was better than those poor wanderers on the bleak prairies who left their comfortable homes in the tempestuous and stormy month of February, this is February 1846, and crossed the Mississippi on the ice to seek new homes amid the rocky deserts with no shelters save tents and wagon covers.
Gerrit Yeah, because it's super humid, and yeah, it's very much like Wisconsin in that regard. Super humid, and so the cold just really cuts through you. So as winter comes on, this is a much more difficult thing, and so she's explaining what meager circumstances they lived in. Her mother, remember the mother who eventually tried to prove that the church was false but then proved it true by reading the Bible, has come with them. She says, mother was quite aged, and she had to sit in the big armchair wrapped in a bed quilt and hold Josiah close to the fire, that's her son, to keep him from freezing. Okay, so it's so cold in the winter, you literally have to sit next to the fire in order to keep any kind of warmth going on. So she writes about how bad it is, and then she says, still, our situation was better than those poor wanderers on the bleak prairies who left their comfortable homes in the tempestuous and stormy month of February, this is February 1846, and crossed the Mississippi on the ice to seek new homes amid the rocky deserts with no shelters save tents and wagon covers.
Gerrit So they don't leave with the initial companies that are leaving. They don't have the ability to. They are among these people that are poor. And it's going to be multiple years of work just to try to save up enough money to be able to afford this really arduous and expensive trek across the country. So she's going to give a little bit of the things that happen as they're trying to do this. But she's also going to talk about some of the false accusations that are made by antagonists, especially once the main body of saints leave. And they want all of the saints out. I've quoted to this audience before the statements of the Warsaw Sentinel, which was, and Warsaw Sentinel is the same paper, that stated very clearly, we want every Mormon out.
Gerrit So they don't leave with the initial companies that are leaving. They don't have the ability to. They are among these people that are poor. And it's going to be multiple years of work just to try to save up enough money to be able to afford this really arduous and expensive trek across the country. So she's going to give a little bit of the things that happen as they're trying to do this. But she's also going to talk about some of the false accusations that are made by antagonists, especially once the main body of saints leave. And they want all of the saints out. I've quoted to this audience before the statements of the Warsaw Sentinel, which was, and Warsaw Sentinel is the same paper, that stated very clearly, we want every Mormon out.
Gerrit We don't want them saying, oh no, I don't believe anymore, and I'm going to say, they say, we want every saint, mongrel or whole blood, removed. In fact, yeah, that's the phraseology they use. And if it acts like it's saint, or talks like a saint, or thinks like a saint, and had they left, you know, so some are saying, oh no, we've left, we're not members. The paper writes, had they left at the height of all of this Mormon villainy, then we'd believe them. And the quote goes on to say, but in deathbed repentance, we have no faith. Yeah, I mean, it is truly, in the truest sense of the word, ethnic cleansing. It is, I want to remove you, even if you say you're not a Mormon anymore. Nope. Because the fact that you were ever affiliated with them means you're one of them.
Gerrit We don't want them saying, oh no, I don't believe anymore, and I'm going to say, they say, we want every saint, mongrel or whole blood, removed. In fact, yeah, that's the phraseology they use. And if it acts like it's saint, or talks like a saint, or thinks like a saint, and had they left, you know, so some are saying, oh no, we've left, we're not members. The paper writes, had they left at the height of all of this Mormon villainy, then we'd believe them. And the quote goes on to say, but in deathbed repentance, we have no faith. Yeah, I mean, it is truly, in the truest sense of the word, ethnic cleansing. It is, I want to remove you, even if you say you're not a Mormon anymore. Nope. Because the fact that you were ever affiliated with them means you're one of them.
Richard I mean, did those people go on to write the Idaho Constitution?
Richard I mean, did those people go on to write the Idaho Constitution?
Gerrit My guess is yes. Cause Idaho gets more populated by people moving less primarily from Illinois and other places in the North. So yeah.
Gerrit My guess is yes. Cause Idaho gets more populated by people moving less primarily from Illinois and other places in the North. So yeah.
Richard Wow, that's incredible. We have talked about a future episode where we actually dive in cause you sent me down a rabbit hole from the Richard's now an expert in Idaho constitutional law. Well, it was the thing that was stunning to me. The thing that was stunning to me was the conversations that were being held by members of Congress in Washington, DC about the, about the Mormons in Idaho being no better than essentially Aztecs who ripped the beating heart of people out of their chests and threw bodies down the steps. That's incredible. We can do so many parts on just, just the minutes.
Richard Wow, that's incredible. We have talked about a future episode where we actually dive in cause you sent me down a rabbit hole from the Richard's now an expert in Idaho constitutional law. Well, it was the thing that was stunning to me. The thing that was stunning to me was the conversations that were being held by members of Congress in Washington, DC about the, about the Mormons in Idaho being no better than essentially Aztecs who ripped the beating heart of people out of their chests and threw bodies down the steps. That's incredible. We can do so many parts on just, just the minutes.
Gerrit Just what they say.
Richard Just on the congressional record.
Gerrit Just what they say.
Richard Just on the congressional record.
Gerrit Yep. Yep. These evil blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, so to give you an idea of how menacing the mobs are after they leave, in the setting of winter, the mobocracy, which had gradually been increasing after the settling of the Mormons in that part of the country. Oh, so sorry. I guess I should say that they moved to the other side of the river. So they crossed the river, they leave Nauvoo itself, and we journeyed to Bonaparte, about 25 miles from Nauvoo, on the opposite side of the river.
Gerrit Yep. Yep. These evil blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, so to give you an idea of how menacing the mobs are after they leave, in the setting of winter, the mobocracy, which had gradually been increasing after the settling of the Mormons in that part of the country. Oh, so sorry. I guess I should say that they moved to the other side of the river. So they crossed the river, they leave Nauvoo itself, and we journeyed to Bonaparte, about 25 miles from Nauvoo, on the opposite side of the river.
Richard Named after Napoleon, who fought a war after the revolution.
Richard Named after Napoleon, who fought a war after the revolution.
Gerrit You know what? Most people won't know this though, because they weren't listening to the premium.
Gerrit You know what? Most people won't know this though, because they weren't listening to the premium.
Richard I'm an idiot. I'm making fun of myself.
Richard I'm an idiot. I'm making fun of myself.
Gerrit I know, but they won't know the joke, because on the premium, we had a conversation about-
Gerrit I know, but they won't know the joke, because on the premium, we had a conversation about-
Richard The Napoleonic Wars and about when that happened. And I think they happened in like 1606.
Richard The Napoleonic Wars and about when that happened. And I think they happened in like 1606.
Gerrit They happened before.
Gerrit They happened before.
Richard Yeah, they happened well before. I missed a couple of chapters in high school.
Richard Yeah, they happened well before. I missed a couple of chapters in high school.
Gerrit Did I reference the fact that we're from Idaho?
Gerrit Did I reference the fact that we're from Idaho?
Richard The Louisiana Purchase. I'm familiar with that. I mean, Lewis and Clark was the entire fourth grade.
Richard The Louisiana Purchase. I'm familiar with that. I mean, Lewis and Clark was the entire fourth grade.
Gerrit Oh yeah. Most of Idaho history is Lewis and Clark.
Gerrit Oh yeah. Most of Idaho history is Lewis and Clark.
Richard Oh, that's all it is.
Gerrit We would build a shrine to Lewis and Clark.
Richard Oh, that's all it is.
Gerrit We would build a shrine to Lewis and Clark.
Richard And Sacagawea.
Richard And Sacagawea.
Gerrit Oh yeah, Sacagawea, Lewis and Clark. That's it. I mean, is there anything else we even talked about?
Gerrit Oh yeah, Sacagawea, Lewis and Clark. That's it. I mean, is there anything else we even talked about?
Richard How did I? I just, I just, I just, just so much shame on my family.
Richard How did I? I just, I just, I just, just so much shame on my family.
Gerrit Do you remember the song? Did you have to learn the song?
Gerrit Do you remember the song? Did you have to learn the song?
Richard What's?
Richard What's?
Gerrit The stage song.
Gerrit The stage song.
Richard And here we have Idaho.
Richard And here we have Idaho.
Gerrit And here we have Idaho.
Gerrit And here we have Idaho.
Richard Wading her way to fame.
Richard Wading her way to fame.
Gerrit Wading her way to fame. Silver and gold. Right?
Gerrit Wading her way to fame. Silver and gold. Right?
Richard Yeah, it's classic.
Richard Yeah, it's classic.
Gerrit And romance lies in her name.
Gerrit And romance lies in her name.
Richard Yeah, that's good. Takes me back.
Richard Yeah, that's good. Takes me back.
Gerrit Does anyone else know their state anthem? I'm always jealous of my daughter because she goes to a university. A university.
Gerrit Does anyone else know their state anthem? I'm always jealous of my daughter because she goes to a university. A university.
Richard Your daughter.
Richard Your daughter.
Gerrit She goes.
Gerrit She goes.
Richard How old is your daughter?
Richard How old is your daughter?
Gerrit You know what? She'll never go to a university.
Gerrit You know what? She'll never go to a university.
Richard She's wicked smart.
Richard She's wicked smart.
Gerrit She goes.
Gerrit She goes.
Richard She's nine, ten.
Richard She's nine, ten.
Gerrit She goes to a great school, not a university. I don't know what's wrong. I'm having a hard time today. When we were about to start the podcast, I asked Richard, how do I start the podcast? And he looked at me as if I was kidding. But in that moment, I wasn't kidding. I was like, I don't remember what we say.
Gerrit She goes to a great school, not a university. I don't know what's wrong. I'm having a hard time today. When we were about to start the podcast, I asked Richard, how do I start the podcast? And he looked at me as if I was kidding. But in that moment, I wasn't kidding. I was like, I don't remember what we say.
Richard We've done 243 of these.
Richard We've done 243 of these.
Gerrit Well, it just shows how badly we've done them. Anyway, my daughter and her grade school, they have a school song they sing every week. This year of Bonita Bears. Oh, okay.
Gerrit Well, it just shows how badly we've done them. Anyway, my daughter and her grade school, they have a school song they sing every week. This year of Bonita Bears. Oh, okay.
Richard So the Sandspring Elementary, the best school in the land.
Richard So the Sandspring Elementary, the best school in the land.
Gerrit They did have a better song. Sandspring Elementary.
Gerrit They did have a better song. Sandspring Elementary.
Richard Oklahoma's got a great state song.
Richard Oklahoma's got a great state song.
Gerrit Oh, sure.
Gerrit Oh, sure.
Richard Sure. I mean, when it's written by Rogers and Hammerstein.
Richard Sure. I mean, when it's written by Rogers and Hammerstein.
Gerrit See, and that's what Idaho lacked. Part of the problem of being as bigoted as their Constitution was is you don't get the same Rogers and Hammerstein treatment. That's what I think. Right?
Gerrit See, and that's what Idaho lacked. Part of the problem of being as bigoted as their Constitution was is you don't get the same Rogers and Hammerstein treatment. That's what I think. Right?
Richard Yes. If you keep our people out.
Richard Yes. If you keep our people out.
Gerrit Anyway, so she's explaining just how horrible this is right here. In the winter mobocracy, which have been gradually been increasing after the settling of the Mormons in that part of the country. So they move over to Iowa. So they get out of Nauvoo where most of the violence is. They're 25 miles away. Well, guess what, though? Anywhere you go as a Mormon refugee, you can't have too many of you collect before people start saying, Hey, there's a bunch of Mormons moving into our neighborhood. And Mormons are so thoroughly hated in the United States at that time that there are very few open arms for these refugees being driven out of their homes. In Farmington, a place five miles from Bonaparte, they would take a man if they knew he was a Mormon and they would hang him up on a tree or anything that would answer their purposes in the street in open daylight. They would hang him until he was nearly dead before taking him down.
Gerrit Anyway, so she's explaining just how horrible this is right here. In the winter mobocracy, which have been gradually been increasing after the settling of the Mormons in that part of the country. So they move over to Iowa. So they get out of Nauvoo where most of the violence is. They're 25 miles away. Well, guess what, though? Anywhere you go as a Mormon refugee, you can't have too many of you collect before people start saying, Hey, there's a bunch of Mormons moving into our neighborhood. And Mormons are so thoroughly hated in the United States at that time that there are very few open arms for these refugees being driven out of their homes. In Farmington, a place five miles from Bonaparte, they would take a man if they knew he was a Mormon and they would hang him up on a tree or anything that would answer their purposes in the street in open daylight. They would hang him until he was nearly dead before taking him down.
Gerrit She goes on to say that there was someone who did die in consequence of this kind of violence. They would cut holes in the ice in the river and they would hold people in the water until they were nearly dead. These outrages were perpetrated without preferring any charge. But these outrages, although frequent in occurrence, did not satisfy their diabolical thirst for malice and unprovoked spite. The spirit which raged with violence and savage cruelty in Illinois and in Missouri was exhibited in Farmington in the vindictive spirit in which they sought to harass and persecute the saints. They commenced to arrest them on the pretense of theft without a shadow of proof, unless of course someone was bribed to perjure themself, which was common. The justice of the peace in Farmington told the people that he would commit every Mormon they would bring before him, and he kept his word sacredly, not one escaped commitment, meaning going to jail.
Gerrit She goes on to say that there was someone who did die in consequence of this kind of violence. They would cut holes in the ice in the river and they would hold people in the water until they were nearly dead. These outrages were perpetrated without preferring any charge. But these outrages, although frequent in occurrence, did not satisfy their diabolical thirst for malice and unprovoked spite. The spirit which raged with violence and savage cruelty in Illinois and in Missouri was exhibited in Farmington in the vindictive spirit in which they sought to harass and persecute the saints. They commenced to arrest them on the pretense of theft without a shadow of proof, unless of course someone was bribed to perjure themself, which was common. The justice of the peace in Farmington told the people that he would commit every Mormon they would bring before him, and he kept his word sacredly, not one escaped commitment, meaning going to jail.
Gerrit Some gave bail to await the sitting of the grand jury, and those who did not were sent to Keosauqua. There's no way I'm saying that right.
Gerrit Some gave bail to await the sitting of the grand jury, and those who did not were sent to Keosauqua. There's no way I'm saying that right.
Richard Andrea? Andrea?
Richard Andrea? Andrea?
Gerrit Keosauqua?
Gerrit Keosauqua?
Richard And we're mispronouncing all the words. I think that's it.
Richard And we're mispronouncing all the words. I think that's it.
Gerrit I don't think so.
Gerrit I don't think so.
Richard We're slaughtering names.
Richard We're slaughtering names.
Gerrit So look, if you happen to be a member of the church in rural Eastern Iowa and you're listening to this podcast...
Gerrit So look, if you happen to be a member of the church in rural Eastern Iowa and you're listening to this podcast...
Richard Well, there's a ward in Keokuk, right?
Richard Well, there's a ward in Keokuk, right?
Gerrit This is 25 miles away from there.
Gerrit This is 25 miles away from there.
Richard So yeah, in the same ward.
Richard So yeah, in the same ward.
Gerrit So in the same stake?
Gerrit So in the same stake?
Richard Hold on, I'm looking up. I'm going to get our crack research staff on the ward boundaries of Keokuk.
Richard Hold on, I'm looking up. I'm going to get our crack research staff on the ward boundaries of Keokuk.
Gerrit Anyway, a log building with large cracks between the logs, they were sent there to this jail in Keosauqua. Again, I apologize to everyone in Iowa. There's no way I'm saying that right.
Gerrit Anyway, a log building with large cracks between the logs, they were sent there to this jail in Keosauqua. Again, I apologize to everyone in Iowa. There's no way I'm saying that right.
Richard I'm trying to look how to even spell Keosauqua.
Richard I'm trying to look how to even spell Keosauqua.
Gerrit Yeah.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard Oh, there it is. Okay.
Richard Oh, there it is. Okay.
Gerrit Yeah, right there.
Gerrit Yeah, right there.
Richard That's exactly how I thought it was.
Richard That's exactly how I thought it was.
Gerrit Well, I assume. They were sent there the first of January in a very severe winter, and there's essentially large gaps in the logs that is this jail. So you're just suffering in the middle of this Iowa winter. They were also put in irons in that cold place and no chance for a fire. My husband William was one of those unfortunates whom these malicious demons had selected on whom to vent their hellish rage. Notwithstanding that he had been steady all the time at the mill and he hadn't lost a day, he was arrested on the first day of January and he was held in confinement eight weeks. I visited him twice in the four part of his confinement, but then I was taken sick and brought to the verge of the grave. Nature gave way under the severe trial. The strain on my naturally nervous system was unendurable and I sank beneath its direful influence, but my end was not yet. So remember, she's already been miraculously healed by Orson Pratt when she first got to Nauvoo.
Gerrit Well, I assume. They were sent there the first of January in a very severe winter, and there's essentially large gaps in the logs that is this jail. So you're just suffering in the middle of this Iowa winter. They were also put in irons in that cold place and no chance for a fire. My husband William was one of those unfortunates whom these malicious demons had selected on whom to vent their hellish rage. Notwithstanding that he had been steady all the time at the mill and he hadn't lost a day, he was arrested on the first day of January and he was held in confinement eight weeks. I visited him twice in the four part of his confinement, but then I was taken sick and brought to the verge of the grave. Nature gave way under the severe trial. The strain on my naturally nervous system was unendurable and I sank beneath its direful influence, but my end was not yet. So remember, she's already been miraculously healed by Orson Pratt when she first got to Nauvoo.
Gerrit And this trial is going to end because of someone, she doesn't name who it is, that there's a habeas corpus that's issued to take them to Iowa City where we could get a fair trial before the chief judge of the territory who was a very impartial and just man. They told me that they had investigated the case and that there was nothing against my husband to hold him. They were all set at liberty in Iowa City and the justice of the peace from Farmington received a severe lecture from the judge. That's very nice. So you were falsely imprisoning, beating, nearly drowning, strangling people because of their religion, but I gave them a good talking to. You know, I told them just how disappointed I was.
Gerrit And this trial is going to end because of someone, she doesn't name who it is, that there's a habeas corpus that's issued to take them to Iowa City where we could get a fair trial before the chief judge of the territory who was a very impartial and just man. They told me that they had investigated the case and that there was nothing against my husband to hold him. They were all set at liberty in Iowa City and the justice of the peace from Farmington received a severe lecture from the judge. That's very nice. So you were falsely imprisoning, beating, nearly drowning, strangling people because of their religion, but I gave them a good talking to. You know, I told them just how disappointed I was.
Richard It's the Iowa City, Iowa Stake, the Fairfield Ward.
Richard It's the Iowa City, Iowa Stake, the Fairfield Ward.
Gerrit The Iowa City. That's how many miles away?
Gerrit The Iowa City. That's how many miles away?
Richard It's a bit of a... It's a decent... I'm going to get our correct research done.
Richard It's a bit of a... It's a decent... I'm going to get our correct research done.
Gerrit Okay, yeah. Richard's going to let us know just how far you have to go in Iowa.
Gerrit Okay, yeah. Richard's going to let us know just how far you have to go in Iowa.
Richard Keosauqua to Fairfield is a bit of a haul, by the way, by itself.
Richard Keosauqua to Fairfield is a bit of a haul, by the way, by itself.
Gerrit Right. So she had to pack a watch.
Gerrit Right. So she had to pack a watch.
Richard St. Southeast, they have to travel a little bit.
Richard St. Southeast, they have to travel a little bit.
Gerrit If you happen to be a member of the church in that stake, we'll send you a hat. In honor of the territorial chief judge saying, hey, don't do that anymore. That illegal attacking of people.
Gerrit If you happen to be a member of the church in that stake, we'll send you a hat. In honor of the territorial chief judge saying, hey, don't do that anymore. That illegal attacking of people.
Richard We'll send you a hat.
Richard We'll send you a hat.
Gerrit Richard just pushed his chair all the way across the room, so you're not really able to hear him.
Gerrit Richard just pushed his chair all the way across the room, so you're not really able to hear him.
Richard Oh my gosh.
Richard Oh my gosh.
Gerrit So, they get sick, and that is a rough thing, but they really want to make it out to where the rest of the saints are. They want to get out to Mount Pisgah and the other places in Iowa, where the saints have their way stations as they're on their way. But her son Josiah gets very sick, and she sees in this yet another miracle. She writes, When in Nauvoo, William and I had had our patriarchal blessings under the hand of patriarch John Smith. So that's Joseph Smith's uncle. George A. Smith's dad is John Smith. In my blessing, he told me that I should have power to preserve the lives of my children until they are old. And I had implicit faith in that promise, and I verily believe that it was through that promise that I saved my son from the fell destroyer. For I claimed him at the hands of the Lord through that promise, and to God, by all the glory, he spared him, and he raised him up to manhood to obey the gospel in its fullness, even the celestial law of marriage, for which he may have to pay the penalty of imprisonment.
Gerrit So, they get sick, and that is a rough thing, but they really want to make it out to where the rest of the saints are. They want to get out to Mount Pisgah and the other places in Iowa, where the saints have their way stations as they're on their way. But her son Josiah gets very sick, and she sees in this yet another miracle. She writes, When in Nauvoo, William and I had had our patriarchal blessings under the hand of patriarch John Smith. So that's Joseph Smith's uncle. George A. Smith's dad is John Smith. In my blessing, he told me that I should have power to preserve the lives of my children until they are old. And I had implicit faith in that promise, and I verily believe that it was through that promise that I saved my son from the fell destroyer. For I claimed him at the hands of the Lord through that promise, and to God, by all the glory, he spared him, and he raised him up to manhood to obey the gospel in its fullness, even the celestial law of marriage, for which he may have to pay the penalty of imprisonment.
Gerrit If so, the will of God be done. She's talking about the fact that her son actually practices polygamy in Utah. Spoiler alert, they eventually make it to Utah. Great. I just ruined it for everybody. And I said the word polygamy. Now, she's going to have another child, but they are still just desperately trying to make ends meet. And it's two steps forward and about seven steps back for them as they keep trying to do this. She's going to have a lot of difficulties and trials. I'm not going to read all of them. But eventually her dear mother, who had accompanied her on all of this, she's going to pass away. So one of the reasons why they weren't able to leave is she was so sick. She grew gradually weaker and weaker. In 1854, her mother dies.
Gerrit If so, the will of God be done. She's talking about the fact that her son actually practices polygamy in Utah. Spoiler alert, they eventually make it to Utah. Great. I just ruined it for everybody. And I said the word polygamy. Now, she's going to have another child, but they are still just desperately trying to make ends meet. And it's two steps forward and about seven steps back for them as they keep trying to do this. She's going to have a lot of difficulties and trials. I'm not going to read all of them. But eventually her dear mother, who had accompanied her on all of this, she's going to pass away. So one of the reasons why they weren't able to leave is she was so sick. She grew gradually weaker and weaker. In 1854, her mother dies.
Gerrit Sorry, 1854. Sorry, 1851, her mother dies in 1854. So now the Saints have been out in Salt Lake now for almost seven years at this point. She gives birth to another daughter. They name her Medora Victoria. I don't know if I'm saying Medora right.
Gerrit Sorry, 1854. Sorry, 1851, her mother dies in 1854. So now the Saints have been out in Salt Lake now for almost seven years at this point. She gives birth to another daughter. They name her Medora Victoria. I don't know if I'm saying Medora right.
Richard It's on theme with the show.
Richard It's on theme with the show.
Gerrit Yeah, every name that we've ever read, we don't know how to pronounce.
Gerrit Yeah, every name that we've ever read, we don't know how to pronounce.
Richard That looks right.
Richard That looks right.
Gerrit Maybe. I mean, Medora kind of looks like it. So here they are still struggling and striving, and they finally have gotten enough money together that they are going to try to make it out in 1857. Her brother, who's a missionary in England, he writes to them and says, Hey, I'm going to be on my way back in 1857. I want to meet you in Iowa City, and we'll cross the plains together to go to Salt Lake. Well, they end up missing her brother. And she writes, We were left to travel alone or join a Danish company who could not speak a word of English. The captain of the company, however, was not Danish, and he was very anxious for us to go with him. I'm sure. Because he doesn't speak English. It was odd. We've always talked about that, how your parochialism stops the further away you get from your home.
Gerrit Maybe. I mean, Medora kind of looks like it. So here they are still struggling and striving, and they finally have gotten enough money together that they are going to try to make it out in 1857. Her brother, who's a missionary in England, he writes to them and says, Hey, I'm going to be on my way back in 1857. I want to meet you in Iowa City, and we'll cross the plains together to go to Salt Lake. Well, they end up missing her brother. And she writes, We were left to travel alone or join a Danish company who could not speak a word of English. The captain of the company, however, was not Danish, and he was very anxious for us to go with him. I'm sure. Because he doesn't speak English. It was odd. We've always talked about that, how your parochialism stops the further away you get from your home.
Gerrit So in your own town, the rival high school that's literally in the same town, I hate those guys. Can't believe that. I'm sure Richard has all kinds of stories from...
Gerrit So in your own town, the rival high school that's literally in the same town, I hate those guys. Can't believe that. I'm sure Richard has all kinds of stories from...
Richard So I covered an international territory. I traveled quite a bit for work. You leave Utah or leave Idaho. You're in New York. You meet someone from Utah or Idaho. It doesn't matter what high school you went to. All of a sudden, it's like, oh my gosh.
Richard So I covered an international territory. I traveled quite a bit for work. You leave Utah or leave Idaho. You're in New York. You meet someone from Utah or Idaho. It doesn't matter what high school you went to. All of a sudden, it's like, oh my gosh.
Gerrit Even though it's like the rival that you can't stand.
Gerrit Even though it's like the rival that you can't stand.
Richard Oh my gosh. Nampa High, come here. Oh my goodness. Then you leave there and you go to Europe, and you're in England and you meet anyone from the States. And then you go to France and you meet anyone that speaks English.
Richard Oh my gosh. Nampa High, come here. Oh my goodness. Then you leave there and you go to Europe, and you're in England and you meet anyone from the States. And then you go to France and you meet anyone that speaks English.
Gerrit Yeah, exactly. Anyone. Anyone is like, you're from Britain. That's my people. I love you. I wish we had gone with George III. Thank you for knowing English. So they're eventually going to make it, but they go out with this company and they are literally just ahead of the army that's being sent to Utah during the Utah War. That's 1857. So they're hearing all of these reports of the army that's coming behind them, but they end up getting there before the troops. But they're making that whole journey, that whole walk in fear because they know the army is coming. When we got to nearly Black Fork, President Young sent some fresh teams as ours were getting foot sore, which made it slow traveling. And it was feared that the troops would overtake us before we got to Salt Lake City. So they get there before the troops do. And as soon as they get there, they rent a house, they get ready, and then Brigham Young orders everyone to leave Salt Lake and to move south because they're worried that the city is going to be occupied.
Gerrit Yeah, exactly. Anyone. Anyone is like, you're from Britain. That's my people. I love you. I wish we had gone with George III. Thank you for knowing English. So they're eventually going to make it, but they go out with this company and they are literally just ahead of the army that's being sent to Utah during the Utah War. That's 1857. So they're hearing all of these reports of the army that's coming behind them, but they end up getting there before the troops. But they're making that whole journey, that whole walk in fear because they know the army is coming. When we got to nearly Black Fork, President Young sent some fresh teams as ours were getting foot sore, which made it slow traveling. And it was feared that the troops would overtake us before we got to Salt Lake City. So they get there before the troops do. And as soon as they get there, they rent a house, they get ready, and then Brigham Young orders everyone to leave Salt Lake and to move south because they're worried that the city is going to be occupied.
Gerrit So you get a little bit of this pioneer story of this unsung but yet very faithful Latter Day Saint. Now, they're going to move out of Salt Lake, and it's a pretty bittersweet move for her. She likes living where they're living, but her niece, who really acts like her daughter, I mean, she's raised her from the time she was a teeny little girl, and she's so close to Eliza Anne. Well, she marries a guy, and they move. They're going to move down to Fillmore, okay? Fillmore, not very close to Salt Lake, but at the time, the territorial capital, they're trying to make a go of it. And she talks about how she doesn't want to move at all. Like, I tried my best to comfort myself with the reflection that I would be with Eliza Anne again.
Gerrit So you get a little bit of this pioneer story of this unsung but yet very faithful Latter Day Saint. Now, they're going to move out of Salt Lake, and it's a pretty bittersweet move for her. She likes living where they're living, but her niece, who really acts like her daughter, I mean, she's raised her from the time she was a teeny little girl, and she's so close to Eliza Anne. Well, she marries a guy, and they move. They're going to move down to Fillmore, okay? Fillmore, not very close to Salt Lake, but at the time, the territorial capital, they're trying to make a go of it. And she talks about how she doesn't want to move at all. Like, I tried my best to comfort myself with the reflection that I would be with Eliza Anne again.
Gerrit Okay, so she loves this niece slash daughter of hers so much that even though this is a tough move for her, she's going to move down there and she's going to be with her daughter slash niece. And we sold our place for a mere trifle compared with its real value and invested our interest in Fillmore. This was the last day of the year 1863, December 25th. We remained, sorry, the last of the year, December 25th. We remained with Mr. Trescott, that's Eliza Ann's husband, and wife for about two weeks and then we rented two rooms in William King's house. In February 1864, Eliza Ann gave birth to a daughter and then died a few hours afterwards, thus leaving me desolate and forlorn and nearly heartbroken in a strange land, a place that was repugnant to me from the first and much more so always after the death of Eliza Ann.
Gerrit Okay, so she loves this niece slash daughter of hers so much that even though this is a tough move for her, she's going to move down there and she's going to be with her daughter slash niece. And we sold our place for a mere trifle compared with its real value and invested our interest in Fillmore. This was the last day of the year 1863, December 25th. We remained, sorry, the last of the year, December 25th. We remained with Mr. Trescott, that's Eliza Ann's husband, and wife for about two weeks and then we rented two rooms in William King's house. In February 1864, Eliza Ann gave birth to a daughter and then died a few hours afterwards, thus leaving me desolate and forlorn and nearly heartbroken in a strange land, a place that was repugnant to me from the first and much more so always after the death of Eliza Ann.
Gerrit So here's this, essentially her first child, because she adopted her before she even had her own child, and as all too often happened in the 19th century, childbirth is incredibly dangerous for women, and Eliza Ann dies in childbirth. And it's obviously devastating, and we don't know much about that devastation. I wish I had more sources to call from to talk about some of the aspects of her life, but I will tell you, shortly before that tragedy happened, one of the things that we have from Eliza Gibbs is a letter that she writes to Brigham Young in 1862. So this is right before the terrible difficulties. She writes it, and what it is, is a giant poem that she's written in honor of Brigham Young.
Gerrit So here's this, essentially her first child, because she adopted her before she even had her own child, and as all too often happened in the 19th century, childbirth is incredibly dangerous for women, and Eliza Ann dies in childbirth. And it's obviously devastating, and we don't know much about that devastation. I wish I had more sources to call from to talk about some of the aspects of her life, but I will tell you, shortly before that tragedy happened, one of the things that we have from Eliza Gibbs is a letter that she writes to Brigham Young in 1862. So this is right before the terrible difficulties. She writes it, and what it is, is a giant poem that she's written in honor of Brigham Young.
Gerrit I mean, I'm not going to read the whole thing, because it's like a Beowulf type. It's an epic. Yeah, this is, you know, Shakespeare's got nothing on her, but it's Our Chieftain is what she calls it, to the tune of Mountain Dell. So you're to sing it, right? Where is the man beneath the sun that can be found who hath achieved such victories with blessings? I'm reading this from the original, and it is very poor copy, so I really should have done some prep work and transcribed this, but that would require us to spend more time, and obviously we don't. Maybe we should have spent less time talking about a tree limb coming through a camper. I now regret everything I've ever done in my life. As to whom the great king of kings, the mighty Elohim, hath called his kingdom to set up and rear it to his name, the world may boast of Bonaparte and Alexander too, and hosts of others who like them have filled the world with woe and blood and fire and ruin marked their cruel, heartless course and thus brought down upon their heads the widow's direful curse.
Gerrit I mean, I'm not going to read the whole thing, because it's like a Beowulf type. It's an epic. Yeah, this is, you know, Shakespeare's got nothing on her, but it's Our Chieftain is what she calls it, to the tune of Mountain Dell. So you're to sing it, right? Where is the man beneath the sun that can be found who hath achieved such victories with blessings? I'm reading this from the original, and it is very poor copy, so I really should have done some prep work and transcribed this, but that would require us to spend more time, and obviously we don't. Maybe we should have spent less time talking about a tree limb coming through a camper. I now regret everything I've ever done in my life. As to whom the great king of kings, the mighty Elohim, hath called his kingdom to set up and rear it to his name, the world may boast of Bonaparte and Alexander too, and hosts of others who like them have filled the world with woe and blood and fire and ruin marked their cruel, heartless course and thus brought down upon their heads the widow's direful curse.
Gerrit So she's talking about how, you know, Brigham Young is going to be someone different. Again, it goes on for a while, but I'll give you the closing part of it so you can get a little bit more of an idea of who Eliza Anne is. Again, she's sending this in 1862, March of 1862, which is the middle of the Civil War, the American Civil War. She's sending it to Brigham Young and in honor of him. So here is the way that she ends off this epic poem. Then will, as Daniel did predict, the little stone roll forth, cut from the mountain without hands, and soon twill fill the earth. All hail our mighty chieftain, hail the mouthpiece of our God. His word is law, yet mild and wise, tis not enforced with blood.
Gerrit So she's talking about how, you know, Brigham Young is going to be someone different. Again, it goes on for a while, but I'll give you the closing part of it so you can get a little bit more of an idea of who Eliza Anne is. Again, she's sending this in 1862, March of 1862, which is the middle of the Civil War, the American Civil War. She's sending it to Brigham Young and in honor of him. So here is the way that she ends off this epic poem. Then will, as Daniel did predict, the little stone roll forth, cut from the mountain without hands, and soon twill fill the earth. All hail our mighty chieftain, hail the mouthpiece of our God. His word is law, yet mild and wise, tis not enforced with blood.
Gerrit So, you know, brother Young, she then writes a little note at the end of it. The above lines are the production of some of my ideas thrown together amid the cares and perplexity of my household duties. I have not much time for study or reflection, therefore you will please overlook their imperfection. I thought I would send them to you, and if they meet your approbation and you consider them worthy of a place in the news, they are at your disposal. With due respect, I remain Eliza Gibbs. So that's a letter that she sends there to Brigham Young. Now, part of the reason why Eliza came to mind is some of the greatest correspondence that we have isn't between her and Brigham Young. In fact, and unfortunately, it's a one-sided correspondence that we have from another prophet who is responding to her after yet another tragedy occurred in her life.
Gerrit So, you know, brother Young, she then writes a little note at the end of it. The above lines are the production of some of my ideas thrown together amid the cares and perplexity of my household duties. I have not much time for study or reflection, therefore you will please overlook their imperfection. I thought I would send them to you, and if they meet your approbation and you consider them worthy of a place in the news, they are at your disposal. With due respect, I remain Eliza Gibbs. So that's a letter that she sends there to Brigham Young. Now, part of the reason why Eliza came to mind is some of the greatest correspondence that we have isn't between her and Brigham Young. In fact, and unfortunately, it's a one-sided correspondence that we have from another prophet who is responding to her after yet another tragedy occurred in her life.
Gerrit The death of Eliza Anne was obviously incredibly difficult for her. Well, years later, she is going to suffer yet another horrible, horrible experience where her daughter, Medora, is going to marry. She actually marries the same man that her daughter, Imogene, is also married to. So this happens a lot that sisters will marry the same man in the practice of plural marriage. And so Medora is going to get married, and she's going to be having a child. Well, not only does Medora die, the child dies as well. And both her husband and Eliza, both, you know, Medora's husband and Eliza, both write letters to Wilford Woodruff, who at the time is the president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.
Gerrit The death of Eliza Anne was obviously incredibly difficult for her. Well, years later, she is going to suffer yet another horrible, horrible experience where her daughter, Medora, is going to marry. She actually marries the same man that her daughter, Imogene, is also married to. So this happens a lot that sisters will marry the same man in the practice of plural marriage. And so Medora is going to get married, and she's going to be having a child. Well, not only does Medora die, the child dies as well. And both her husband and Eliza, both, you know, Medora's husband and Eliza, both write letters to Wilford Woodruff, who at the time is the president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.
Gerrit This is in the 1880s. So, you know, John Taylor is the prophet, but Wilford Woodruff is the president of the Quorum of the Twelve. And also, I think they're familiar with him because they had spent time in St. George as well, right? So in any case, she writes to to Wilford Woodruff. We don't know exactly what she says. This is in 1883. So 1883, things are going off the rails a lot for the Latter Day Saints. In 1882, they've passed the update, essentially, to the Moral Anti-Bigamy Act that had already made polygamy illegal. Well, then they passed the Edmonds Act that puts all kinds of teeth into that law. And there are federal agents swarming the territory, trying to arrest men and women for unlawful cohabitation. So it's a tough time. And during that time, Wilford Woodruff tours several of the places, branches of the church primarily in Colorado and other places.
Gerrit This is in the 1880s. So, you know, John Taylor is the prophet, but Wilford Woodruff is the president of the Quorum of the Twelve. And also, I think they're familiar with him because they had spent time in St. George as well, right? So in any case, she writes to to Wilford Woodruff. We don't know exactly what she says. This is in 1883. So 1883, things are going off the rails a lot for the Latter Day Saints. In 1882, they've passed the update, essentially, to the Moral Anti-Bigamy Act that had already made polygamy illegal. Well, then they passed the Edmonds Act that puts all kinds of teeth into that law. And there are federal agents swarming the territory, trying to arrest men and women for unlawful cohabitation. So it's a tough time. And during that time, Wilford Woodruff tours several of the places, branches of the church primarily in Colorado and other places.
Gerrit And when he gets home, he finds these letters waiting for him. Again, we don't know exactly what was sent. But I think I'll start with the shorter letter that was sent by James Melville, who was Medora's husband. And you have to try to discern what did he write about the death of his wife and his mother-in-law, Eliza. By what he says. This is Wilford Woodruff's response to him. Elder James Melville, Dear brother, I wish to say that I'm away from home attending conferences a good share of my time. I've been on a mission to Emory County, Denver, and Manassas, Colorado, having traveled some 2,000 miles in two weeks. And on my return to the office, I found quite a file of letters awaiting me from different parts of the territory. Among the number was one from you and one of eight pages from your mother-in-law concerning the death of your wife and child.
Gerrit And when he gets home, he finds these letters waiting for him. Again, we don't know exactly what was sent. But I think I'll start with the shorter letter that was sent by James Melville, who was Medora's husband. And you have to try to discern what did he write about the death of his wife and his mother-in-law, Eliza. By what he says. This is Wilford Woodruff's response to him. Elder James Melville, Dear brother, I wish to say that I'm away from home attending conferences a good share of my time. I've been on a mission to Emory County, Denver, and Manassas, Colorado, having traveled some 2,000 miles in two weeks. And on my return to the office, I found quite a file of letters awaiting me from different parts of the territory. Among the number was one from you and one of eight pages from your mother-in-law concerning the death of your wife and child.
Gerrit And Sister Gibbs asked a great many questions which she wished me to answer, and also my wife, Phoebe Woodruff. So far as she is concerned, she is not in very good health, Phoebe is not, and not in a situation to answer by writing, and I have not time to enter into all the particulars of her questions. But I will write to her and answer what I can. Concerning your letter and questions, I will say that it is all right with the mother and the child. You did not tell me whether the child was alive when taken from the mother and blessed and named. I should not consider it proper to bless and name a dead child. So apparently, he describes what happens, and it's not clear to President Woodruff whether or not it was a stillborn child or whether the child died shortly after. And so he must have said, Brother Melville must have said, we bless the child right away.
Gerrit And Sister Gibbs asked a great many questions which she wished me to answer, and also my wife, Phoebe Woodruff. So far as she is concerned, she is not in very good health, Phoebe is not, and not in a situation to answer by writing, and I have not time to enter into all the particulars of her questions. But I will write to her and answer what I can. Concerning your letter and questions, I will say that it is all right with the mother and the child. You did not tell me whether the child was alive when taken from the mother and blessed and named. I should not consider it proper to bless and name a dead child. So apparently, he describes what happens, and it's not clear to President Woodruff whether or not it was a stillborn child or whether the child died shortly after. And so he must have said, Brother Melville must have said, we bless the child right away.
Gerrit And so, Wilford Woodruff is responding, I should not consider it proper to bless and name a dead child. Now, that might sound a little harsh, but of course he's trying to declare doctrine for the church. But then he goes on to say, not that there is any particular sin in it. But when a child or other person is dead, we should not consider it proper to administer to them unless we were impressed with faith and power to bring it to life. I will write to your mother-in-law, which I wish you to deliver to her. Your brother in the Gospel, Wilford Woodruff. This is a touching letter to me just in the first part that Wilford Woodruff is going to, he literally comes back to, I'm sure, hundreds of letters. But this is the one he's going to spend his time responding to. Well, he writes to Eliza Gibbs. Sister Eliza Gibbs, your letter of June 17th is before me as his brother Melville's.
Gerrit And so, Wilford Woodruff is responding, I should not consider it proper to bless and name a dead child. Now, that might sound a little harsh, but of course he's trying to declare doctrine for the church. But then he goes on to say, not that there is any particular sin in it. But when a child or other person is dead, we should not consider it proper to administer to them unless we were impressed with faith and power to bring it to life. I will write to your mother-in-law, which I wish you to deliver to her. Your brother in the Gospel, Wilford Woodruff. This is a touching letter to me just in the first part that Wilford Woodruff is going to, he literally comes back to, I'm sure, hundreds of letters. But this is the one he's going to spend his time responding to. Well, he writes to Eliza Gibbs. Sister Eliza Gibbs, your letter of June 17th is before me as his brother Melville's.
Gerrit And I've stated to him my situation, away from home a great deal of the time and attending conferences and having heavy correspondence and being full of business so that I cannot do justice in answering so many critical questions as you ask in your letter. But I will answer the best I can. I shall have to answer for Mrs. Woodruff as she is not in a situation to write letters much at present, not being in very good health. And now you can start to feel just the abject sorrow of Eliza as she's writing this letter. Again, I wish I had her letter to read to you, but I don't have it. This is what Wilford Woodruff writes back to her. You say that you have a great desire to communicate with your daughter since her death and have prayed for it long and loud, and the request is not granted. And you feel sorely tried because it is not and are almost ready to turn infidel because the Lord does not grant your request.
Gerrit And I've stated to him my situation, away from home a great deal of the time and attending conferences and having heavy correspondence and being full of business so that I cannot do justice in answering so many critical questions as you ask in your letter. But I will answer the best I can. I shall have to answer for Mrs. Woodruff as she is not in a situation to write letters much at present, not being in very good health. And now you can start to feel just the abject sorrow of Eliza as she's writing this letter. Again, I wish I had her letter to read to you, but I don't have it. This is what Wilford Woodruff writes back to her. You say that you have a great desire to communicate with your daughter since her death and have prayed for it long and loud, and the request is not granted. And you feel sorely tried because it is not and are almost ready to turn infidel because the Lord does not grant your request.
Gerrit That phraseology, turn infidel, if you remember, you got to go back an episode, but that's exactly the phraseology she used when she couldn't reconcile the idea of a just and loving God and a hell that almost everyone goes to, she said it almost made her turn infidel. It almost made her stop believing in God. And you are almost ready to turn infidel because the Lord does not grant your request. I wish to say to you, Sister Gibbs, that you are asking something of the Lord that it is not wisdom in him to bestow. As soon as the Spirit leaves the body and goes back to the Father who gave it, there are laws governing that Spirit so that it cannot return to its friends on earth. And if it was granted to spirits, it might cost them a great deal of sorrow. I have known persons to make covenants together, to return after death, to visit a husband, a wife or parents.
Gerrit That phraseology, turn infidel, if you remember, you got to go back an episode, but that's exactly the phraseology she used when she couldn't reconcile the idea of a just and loving God and a hell that almost everyone goes to, she said it almost made her turn infidel. It almost made her stop believing in God. And you are almost ready to turn infidel because the Lord does not grant your request. I wish to say to you, Sister Gibbs, that you are asking something of the Lord that it is not wisdom in him to bestow. As soon as the Spirit leaves the body and goes back to the Father who gave it, there are laws governing that Spirit so that it cannot return to its friends on earth. And if it was granted to spirits, it might cost them a great deal of sorrow. I have known persons to make covenants together, to return after death, to visit a husband, a wife or parents.
Gerrit But after death, they never came back to fulfill their pledge. For they found a law to forbid it. To answer all such questions, I will say that the Lord never sends an angel to the earth to visit anybody unless he has a message to be delivered or a work to be performed, that cannot be attended to otherwise. And it is the same with departed spirits. They never return to communicate with the living on earth only by permission to deliver a message, but not to gratify the desire of a husband or wife or parents or children. And in that light, you should look upon it, and not because you have done wrong or because the Lord does not hear your prayer.
Gerrit But after death, they never came back to fulfill their pledge. For they found a law to forbid it. To answer all such questions, I will say that the Lord never sends an angel to the earth to visit anybody unless he has a message to be delivered or a work to be performed, that cannot be attended to otherwise. And it is the same with departed spirits. They never return to communicate with the living on earth only by permission to deliver a message, but not to gratify the desire of a husband or wife or parents or children. And in that light, you should look upon it, and not because you have done wrong or because the Lord does not hear your prayer.
Gerrit Obviously, part of what she wrote was, I guess I've just been so much a sinner that my daughter's not coming back to speak to me the way I wanted her to. And so Wilford Woodruff advises her, it's not because you're a sinner. It's not because God isn't there not hearing your prayer. It's because there are laws that exist for spirits in the afterlife. He goes on to share something from Orson Pratt, again, one of the leaders of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Orson Pratt told me once that he had prayed for months for the Lord to send him an angel, but the Lord did not do it. For he had no message to send him. For he had already learned all that was necessary for him to know through the messages given to Joseph Smith by the angels who visited him. I do not think that it is wisdom for you to ask the Lord anymore to send your daughter to you.
Gerrit Obviously, part of what she wrote was, I guess I've just been so much a sinner that my daughter's not coming back to speak to me the way I wanted her to. And so Wilford Woodruff advises her, it's not because you're a sinner. It's not because God isn't there not hearing your prayer. It's because there are laws that exist for spirits in the afterlife. He goes on to share something from Orson Pratt, again, one of the leaders of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Orson Pratt told me once that he had prayed for months for the Lord to send him an angel, but the Lord did not do it. For he had no message to send him. For he had already learned all that was necessary for him to know through the messages given to Joseph Smith by the angels who visited him. I do not think that it is wisdom for you to ask the Lord anymore to send your daughter to you.
Gerrit For if it had been wisdom, God would have granted that request long ago. With regard to the laws that govern spirits when they leave their tabernacles and go into the spirit world, they are not revealed to us, but to a very limited extent. Now, I think part of the reason why she had a question about Phoebe Woodruff is Phoebe Woodruff had nearly died once before and had what some might call a near-death experience. And so I think that's why she was so desperate to what happened with Phoebe when she was... So she's obviously heard this story probably from Phoebe, because President Woodruff certainly acts like they are on familiar terms, I would say. Concerning your questions to Mrs. Woodruff, I may not be able to answer all, but I will say, when the spirit left the body, it did not leave the room. She looked upon her body and upon those in the room.
Gerrit For if it had been wisdom, God would have granted that request long ago. With regard to the laws that govern spirits when they leave their tabernacles and go into the spirit world, they are not revealed to us, but to a very limited extent. Now, I think part of the reason why she had a question about Phoebe Woodruff is Phoebe Woodruff had nearly died once before and had what some might call a near-death experience. And so I think that's why she was so desperate to what happened with Phoebe when she was... So she's obviously heard this story probably from Phoebe, because President Woodruff certainly acts like they are on familiar terms, I would say. Concerning your questions to Mrs. Woodruff, I may not be able to answer all, but I will say, when the spirit left the body, it did not leave the room. She looked upon her body and upon those in the room.
Gerrit The two persons who brought in her coffin were like other persons. They did not see any other persons besides and felt that it would have been a relief to have continued in the spirit world, but chose to return for her husband's and her child's sake. So she's talking about apparently Phoebe Woodruff had this near-death experience and had made this choice to return. The spirit has a spiritual tabernacle, the same size as the body. Your grandchild will be with her mother. And she will have the care of it until the resurrection. She has obeyed the celestial law and she will inherit a celestial kingdom. No person who keeps the celestial law and dies goes to the spirit world and has any desire to come back to this wicked world. And you ought to be reconciled to her departure to a better state.
Gerrit The two persons who brought in her coffin were like other persons. They did not see any other persons besides and felt that it would have been a relief to have continued in the spirit world, but chose to return for her husband's and her child's sake. So she's talking about apparently Phoebe Woodruff had this near-death experience and had made this choice to return. The spirit has a spiritual tabernacle, the same size as the body. Your grandchild will be with her mother. And she will have the care of it until the resurrection. She has obeyed the celestial law and she will inherit a celestial kingdom. No person who keeps the celestial law and dies goes to the spirit world and has any desire to come back to this wicked world. And you ought to be reconciled to her departure to a better state.
Gerrit She is a great deal better off than those of us who remain. I got no particulars of her death, only that she died in child bed. Both male and female have a work to perform in the spirit world, the same as in this life, according to the sphere they occupy. If there is anything left undone for your daughter, it should be done in the temple. It is your duty and the duty of all saints to go into a temple when they have the opportunity and do the work for their dead. No man knows when Christ will come. It is not revealed the day or hour. I do not know whether Joseph or Hyrum will receive their bodies before Christ comes or not. So apparently one of her questions is, will Joseph and Hyrum be resurrected before the Second Coming? Wilford Woodruff, I don't know. He closes off, Your brother in the Gospel, Wilford Woodruff. There are so many beautiful parts to this letter and teaching us doctrine about the spirit world that, you know, we don't know very much about it.
Gerrit She is a great deal better off than those of us who remain. I got no particulars of her death, only that she died in child bed. Both male and female have a work to perform in the spirit world, the same as in this life, according to the sphere they occupy. If there is anything left undone for your daughter, it should be done in the temple. It is your duty and the duty of all saints to go into a temple when they have the opportunity and do the work for their dead. No man knows when Christ will come. It is not revealed the day or hour. I do not know whether Joseph or Hyrum will receive their bodies before Christ comes or not. So apparently one of her questions is, will Joseph and Hyrum be resurrected before the Second Coming? Wilford Woodruff, I don't know. He closes off, Your brother in the Gospel, Wilford Woodruff. There are so many beautiful parts to this letter and teaching us doctrine about the spirit world that, you know, we don't know very much about it.
Gerrit We have all kinds of thoughts in our heads about what it will be like and how it will be and what will happen. But the Lord in His wisdom has seen fit to not reveal very much about it. I don't know how Eliza Gibbs received this, but I do know that she remained a faithful member of the church. When she died in Deseret, which is where she lived, the small community of Deseret, this was the news article that accompanied it. Mrs. Eliza Gibbs died yesterday after an illness of only a few hours. She was 86 years of age. She came to Utah with Johnson's Army and has been a diligent worker in the church from that time until her death. She leaves a host of relatives and friends to mourn her loss. Part of the reason why you study these amazing women and men from the past is you see them persevere through the horrors and the trials of this mortal life.
Gerrit We have all kinds of thoughts in our heads about what it will be like and how it will be and what will happen. But the Lord in His wisdom has seen fit to not reveal very much about it. I don't know how Eliza Gibbs received this, but I do know that she remained a faithful member of the church. When she died in Deseret, which is where she lived, the small community of Deseret, this was the news article that accompanied it. Mrs. Eliza Gibbs died yesterday after an illness of only a few hours. She was 86 years of age. She came to Utah with Johnson's Army and has been a diligent worker in the church from that time until her death. She leaves a host of relatives and friends to mourn her loss. Part of the reason why you study these amazing women and men from the past is you see them persevere through the horrors and the trials of this mortal life.
Gerrit And hopefully we gain just a little bit, just a small piece of courage to push through our own trials. Stephanie, you shared a difficult trial. And my belief is that eventually all of your suffering and all of your losses will be made up to you. I studied someone like Eliza Gibbs, who has every reason in the world to give up on this faith and to say God must not be there. And she doesn't. She continues to serve and work and not with fanfare and not because everyone knows who she is and not because people are giving talks and general conference about her, but just because it's right and she believes. I believe that we will see our loved ones again after this life, and so I'm grateful for President Woodruff's sharing of this.
Gerrit And hopefully we gain just a little bit, just a small piece of courage to push through our own trials. Stephanie, you shared a difficult trial. And my belief is that eventually all of your suffering and all of your losses will be made up to you. I studied someone like Eliza Gibbs, who has every reason in the world to give up on this faith and to say God must not be there. And she doesn't. She continues to serve and work and not with fanfare and not because everyone knows who she is and not because people are giving talks and general conference about her, but just because it's right and she believes. I believe that we will see our loved ones again after this life, and so I'm grateful for President Woodruff's sharing of this.
Gerrit I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and that is the starting point of knowing that Jesus died for us and that everything will eventually be made right. So thank you so much for joining us.
Gerrit I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and that is the starting point of knowing that Jesus died for us and that everything will eventually be made right. So thank you so much for joining us.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth Podcast, hosted by historian, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth Podcast, hosted by historian, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.
Quote board
Make a share card from any lineShe is like essentially the, you know, the Indiana Jones of early Latter-day Saint history.
Yeah, I said, Latter-day Saint hell is the best of the hells, and it's not even close.
This was just the pretest.
wherever you end up serving the Lord, the most important thing is that you go with a desperate desire to love the people that you're around
Look, no one wants to listen until they're in the dungeon of Waukesha, Wisconsin.
Farmers are like, I don't know what we're going to do. Corn is going to burn out. You're like, just get a pump, man.
So you were falsely imprisoning, beating, nearly drowning, strangling people because of their religion, but I gave them a good talking to.
She continues to serve and work and not with fanfare and not because everyone knows who she is and not because people are giving talks and general conference about her, but just because it's right and she believes.
I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and that is the starting point of knowing that Jesus died for us and that everything will eventually be made right.
Source shelf
16 sources cited on air · verses link to the scriptures, Joseph Smith’s documents to the Joseph Smith Paperssermon
Joseph Smith, King Follett discourse (1844)
Gerrit asks if Richard taught it to his atheist prospect who wondered what you'd do after a billion years in heaven.
book
Eliza Dana Gibbs, autobiography, on Nauvoo after the martyrdom
Those were days long to be remembered, as indeed were all the days in Nauvoo, filled up with the bitter trials and deep sorrow and mourning.
Days of bitter trials, sorrow and mourning, with mobs burning out the outlying settlements.
book
Eliza Dana Gibbs, autobiography, on the clapboard house
There was not a house or room worthy to name to be rented for any price.
Her aged mother sat by the fire wrapped in a quilt to keep baby Josiah from freezing.
book
Eliza Dana Gibbs, autobiography, on those crossing the ice in February 1846
crossed the Mississippi on the ice to seek new homes amid the rocky deserts with no shelters save tents and wagon covers.
Too poor to leave with the first companies, she still counts herself better off than those on the prairies.
newspaper
Warsaw Signal, 1846
but in deathbed repentance, we have no faith.
Demanded every Mormon be removed, "mongrel or whole blood," with no faith in deathbed repentance (name transcribed as "Warsaw Sentinel").
record
Congressional Record, debates on Idaho statehood
Richard's rabbit hole: members of Congress compared Idaho's Mormons to Aztecs.
book
Eliza Dana Gibbs, autobiography, on mob violence in Farmington, Iowa
They would cut holes in the ice in the river and they would hold people in the water until they were nearly dead.
Saints hanged until nearly dead and held under icy water, then jailed without proof.
book
Eliza Dana Gibbs, autobiography, on William's imprisonment and release
They were all set at liberty in Iowa City and the justice of the peace from Farmington received a severe lecture from the judge.
Held eight weeks in irons in a freezing log jail, until a habeas corpus brought them before the territorial chief judge in Iowa City.
record
Patriarchal blessing of Eliza Gibbs by John Smith, Nauvoo
he told me that I should have power to preserve the lives of my children until they are old.
Promised she could preserve her children's lives, which she claimed when Josiah fell ill.
book
Eliza Dana Gibbs, autobiography, on the death of Eliza Anne, 1864
In February 1864, Eliza Ann gave birth to a daughter and then died a few hours afterwards
Her niece and adopted daughter dies hours after giving birth in Fillmore. Read on air as "the last day of the year 1863, December 25th."
letter
Eliza Gibbs to Brigham Young, March 1862, poem "Our Chieftain"
All hail our mighty chieftain, hail the mouthpiece of our God.
An epic poem in Brigham's honor, to the tune of "Mountain Dell," offered for the Deseret News.
record
Edmunds Act (1882)
Federal agents swarm the territory over unlawful cohabitation as Wilford Woodruff answers Eliza's letter.
letter
Wilford Woodruff to James Melville, 1883
I should not consider it proper to bless and name a dead child.
Woodruff answers Medora's husband after a 2,000-mile trip, on blessing a child who died.
letter
Wilford Woodruff to Eliza Gibbs, 1883
I wish to say to you, Sister Gibbs, that you are asking something of the Lord that it is not wisdom in him to bestow.
A tender answer to her eight pages of grieving questions about why Medora never visits her.
letter
Wilford Woodruff to Eliza Gibbs, 1883, on Phoebe Woodruff's near-death experience
when the spirit left the body, it did not leave the room.
Phoebe saw her body and the room, and chose to return for her husband and child.
newspaper
Obituary of Eliza Gibbs, Deseret, Utah
Mrs. Eliza Gibbs died yesterday after an illness of only a few hours. She was 86 years of age.
She died at 86 after a few hours' illness, a diligent worker in the church.
Episode quiz
Pass to stamp your passportQuestion 1 of 8Score 0
What hit the family camper when Gerrit was a kid in Challis, Idaho?
Fun with Numbers
This episode, counted from its transcript1:09:56long
20.7 minbefore the topic starts
16sources read or named
0scripture passages
10different years mentioned
1dollar amounts said
From 1606 to 1883
Every year mentioned in the episode. Tap one to jump to it.
Money said on air
Percentages said on air
Putting numbers to words
All 10,571 words of the automatic transcript, counted against a word list for each theme. It shows how much a theme comes up, not what was said about it. See the lists
What this episode talks about more than usual
- Family and marriage66 mentions, 3.3 times the show’s usual rate
- Death and the afterlife49 mentions, 3.1 times the show’s usual rate
- Government and law14 mentions, 1.6 times the show’s usual rate
Names said most
Joseph counts any Joseph.
Wilford Woodruff 15Joseph 9Brigham Young 7Jesus Christ 5Hyrum Smith 2
Signature words
Said often here and in few other episodes.
Gibbs 11camper 10camping 11infidel 4blah 5backing 4
More from this episode
Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.
Claim check
What critics say, and what the episode foundIf my departed loved one doesn't visit me, God isn't hearing my prayers or I've done something wrong.
Once the Saints left Illinois, the persecution ended.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.
Take it to class
Ready to copy into a lesson or a textEliza Gibbs reached Nauvoo too late to meet Joseph, endured mobs, poverty and a husband jailed in a freezing Iowa log jail, and still kept going.
She lost both the niece she raised and her daughter Medora in childbirth, and she still served faithfully until she died at 86.
Wilford Woodruff told her that spirits return only to deliver a message, that Medora had obeyed the celestial law, and that she was better off than those who remain.
The Lord has revealed little about the spirit world, but we will see our loved ones again, and everything will be made right.
Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.
Banter bin
The running jokes, for people who skip aheadAuditions, week to weekRichard is still waiting for the paycheck to clear (0:51).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagShe's saved for the millennium: the Indiana Jones and Forrest Gump of early church history, postmaster in Draper (1:07).
Gerrit hates campingThe "Calvin of camping" email leads to his dad backing the camper into a tree in Challis; Richard did $3,000 of damage to an RV at The Office sites (3:02, 6:20).
The best of the hellsRichard talks Calvinist hell with a prospective client, then wishes him a happy Passover (9:15).
WisconsinBrian's son goes to Milwaukee: 20 more members than 20 years ago, no irrigation, a lot of oxygen, and the cow tongue (14:43).
IdahoEveryone thinks it's by Des Moines, and the state song "Here We Have Idaho" gets sung (17:50, 33:01).
Richard and history datesBonaparte, Iowa, named after Napoleon, who fought a war after the Revolution; Richard missed a few chapters (32:00).
The crack research staffRichard looks up the stake for Keosauqua and sends a hat (37:34, 39:58).
Mispronouncing every nameAndrea or Andrea, Keosauqua, Medora: it's on theme (2:17, 37:06, 43:34).
The astonished mother-in-lawGerrit's mom Renee is still alive, and maybe as astonished as Elder Kearon's mother-in-law (5:01).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag
Your question could be next week’s episodeQuestions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
Go deeperWhere to read more.
Go deeper
Deep dives the episode points towardThe Warsaw Signal's campaign to drive out every Latter-day Saint in 1845 and 1846 (29:37).
The Congressional Record debates on Idaho statehood and the test oath (30:45).
Persecution of the Saints in Lee County and Van Buren County, Iowa, after the exodus (34:49).
Wilford Woodruff's full 1883 letters to Eliza Gibbs and James Melville (56:14).
Phoebe Woodruff's near-death experience as told by Wilford Woodruff (1:03:43).
SOT Litner · S4E18.