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Part two of the rant
S4E20 · Gerrit Goes Hard in the Paint on Hurlbut and Solomon Spaulding Part 2
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Standard of Truth · Season 4 · Episode 20 · 1:09:24

Gerrit Goes Hard in the Paint on Hurlbut and Solomon Spaulding Part 2

Several of Solomon Spaulding's friends and family swore the Book of Mormon was his novel, but when the manuscript turned up, Oberlin's president found 'no name or incident common between the two.'

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The question ·

Where did the claim that Solomon Spaulding wrote the Book of Mormon come from, and does it hold up?

Richard

Gerrit explains how Philastus Hurlbut, twice excommunicated, gathered affidavits that Eber Howe printed in Mormonism Unvailed in 1834. He reads them one by one: Solomon Spaulding's brother John, John's wife Martha, Henry Lake, Aaron Wright, Oliver Smith and others swear the Book of Mormon's names and stories came from Spaulding's lost novel, Manuscript Found. Then the manuscript was found, and James Fairchild, the president of Oberlin College and not a Latter-day Saint, said it had no resemblance to the Book of Mormon at all. Richard then plays Gerrit's righteous rant from the premium show about Hurlbut, who was convicted of threatening Joseph's life. Gerrit warns that anti-Mormon material is a mile wide and an inch deep, and that it can make people feel like experts.

Who comes upPhilastus HurlbutSolomon SpauldingJohn SpauldingMartha SpauldingHenry LakeAaron WrightOliver SmithEber D. HoweJames FairchildJoseph SmithJoseph Smith Sr.Sidney Rigdon
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Part two of the rant

Richard explains they'll finish with a clip of Gerrit's premium rant on Hurlbut.

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Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. In this week's podcast, we are going to do part two of Gerrit Goes Hard in the Paint on Hurlbut and Solomon Spaulding. So we teased a bit of a rant that Gerrit did in a premium episode several weeks ago, that's about 26 minutes.
Gerrit Wouldn't it just be easier for me to rant again?
Richard We already did it.
Gerrit I see. So we'd never, the moment's gone.
Richard Well, so, I mean, I don't know, you recaptured an element of that last week, I felt, and I thought it was great. So I love it when, so I am not able to articulate some of the feelings that I have about many of these types of anti-Mormon arguments. And so when you do that, I feel like, yeah, I wish I could say it like that. And so I think a lot of people like it. We've gotten a lot of very positive response to that. And I feel like a lot of people feel attacked a lot. And so when you go hard in the paint, it makes people feel like, hey, you know what? Yeah, that's what I think. That's great. That's well articulated. And so we're going to skip the Phebe Draper Palmer mailbag and we're going to get straight into it. So we don't run out of time.
Gerrit You missed the Brown part of that.
Richard Oh my gosh.
Gerrit They're coming for you.
Richard The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown. It's the last one.
Gerrit If you don't say Brown, they're coming for you.
Richard They know. I'm so sorry to the family of the Phoebe and the Draper.
Gerrit We have a lot of people who listen to our podcast that are just very big into family history. And if you miss a middle name of one of their ancestors, they're coming for you.
Richard Well, here's the thing. She had a nice big family and there's a lot of ancestors.
Gerrit And they respect her.
Richard As they should. She's incredible.
Other So they're coming for you.
Richard Well, so anyway, no disrespect to the Phoebe, Draper, Palmer, Brown male bag, but we're going to jump straight in to Mormonism Unvailed.
Gerrit Well, so we started talking a little bit about it. And apparently the rant that we're going to cue up near the end is more a rant about Philastus Hurlbut. So let me just talk a little bit about this. Philastus Hurlbut is someone who is excommunicated from the church for committing adultery on his mission. He begs to get back into the church and Joseph, because Joseph has, he's filled with clemency, allows him to get back into the church and then he immediately commits adultery again. And this- Missionaries are want to do. What are you gonna do? And then he's gonna go around claiming that Joseph never should have brought him back into the church and that he clearly isn't a prophet because I was just lying to him when I was saying that I was sorry. And then he's gonna undergo a speaking circuit in which he's going to claim that he knows all of the inside workings of the Latter-day Saints because he was an elder in the church, which is a big deal if you're anything other than a Latter-day Saint.
Richard Well, if you recall, actually, several years ago, when there was an issue on the BYU basketball team, that there was a misunderstanding about many of those things relating to elders and this kind of stuff in terms of...
Gerrit So you're saying the news media did not slowly try to understand how it is that Latter-day Saint priesthood and hierarchy works?
Richard I'm saying it's possible.
Gerrit But not even probable.
Richard It's possible. I just remember that... So, oh, he's an elder in the church. All right, slow your roll.
Other So you mean he's 18.
Richard Yeah, right. So, but I mean that...
Gerrit An elder of the Latter-day Saints was arrested.
Richard I am saying that nothing has actually changed.
Other Yeah, it's exactly the same.
Gerrit So Hurlbut is going to petition to get back into the church. He's going to get back in and then immediately be excommunicated again. This time he's going to undertake a speaking circuit where he claims to have insider information and he attacks Joseph Smith. He's going to be paid by the other resident anti-Mormon, Eber Howe, to go back to Pennsylvania and New York and to collect as many negative affidavits as he possibly could. As the rant, we'll talk more about the character of Hurlbut. I'm going to leave it from there, but just talk about this whole idea of the Solomon Spaulding Manuscript and to demonstrate just how deceitful people can be with their lies. I know that you probably didn't tune in today saying, you know what, I'd like to read a little bit from an anti-Mormon book.
Other But you know what?
Gerrit It's coming for you.
Other Here it is.
Gerrit So a big portion of the book was the argument of where the origin of the Book of Mormon comes from, because this is still the great problem for antagonists of Joseph Smith. How is it that he had plates? When you have all these people who said he had plates, he clearly has something. And how is it that this ne'er-do-well, quote unquote illiterate farm boy produced this massive book? And so there have been people trying to give arguments about where the book originated from for a long time. Hurlbut is going to claim that in fact the book comes from a former minister who's now deceased, so it's very easy. If ever you're looking to blame something on someone, blame it on someone who's dead. It's the best move because they can't defend themselves, at least not now. Now maybe Uncle Lester in the next life will be like, I wasn't the one who put that there.
Gerrit Why did you tell everybody I did it?
Other Well, I figured that they wouldn't come at me if you just. I've been doing it for years. Yeah, yeah.
Gerrit Who's the deceased relative you blame things on?
Richard My grandfather, my great grandfather.
Other Your great grandfather?
Richard Yeah.
Gerrit What about the one who owned an acre in Montreal?
Richard My great, great grandfather.
Gerrit Yeah, you blame him for not expanding the family's land holdings. It is pretty, you know, he owned an entire acre in a land filled with almost free land.
Other He was able to eke out one acre.
Richard No, I feel immediately guilty. My great grandfathers, they were great.
Gerrit They were great guys.
Other You just blame yourself.
Richard I never blame myself, my goodness.
Gerrit Because you have kids.
Richard Well, yeah, I would never blame myself. I don't have the self-awareness or the-
Gerrit Yeah, but I've met Becky, and I'm pretty sure you ain't blaming her either.
Richard Oh my gosh, no, never.
Other That's just the fact that I just said that.
Gerrit We're gonna have to stop the podcast.
Richard Well, first of all, if I blamed her, no one would believe it. That's the biggest reason. That's the biggest problem. It's like, so Becky said that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, Becky said that.
Gerrit No, she didn't. No, you're right.
Richard So Becky did that? Yeah, yeah, Becky did that. No, she didn't. Okay, I did it.
Gerrit So it's not very, it's hard to-
Richard It's less effective for me.
Gerrit Less effective. Well, so, Eber Howe, who hates Latter-day Saints for lots of reasons, not least of which is that his wife becomes one, he produces the first anti-Mormon book that's written in 1834. And he uses these affidavits that Thalassos Hurlbut collects after he's excommunicated. He goes back and collects his affidavits. And among them is the argument that he knows where the real origin of the Book of Mormon comes from. And the claim is that the Book of Mormon actually comes from this preacher, Solomon Spaulding, who wrote it as what they will call as a romance, but a romance is a way of... It means the novel, essentially. It means a novel or a fictitious story. Today, we only mean that, we write that because we mean that it's something, it's like the notebook or something. No, that's not what it means. It means that it's a novel, it's a fictitious book.
Gerrit So part of the affidavits that Hurlbut collected were from what you would assume would be credible people talking about the origin of the Book of Mormon. So for instance, how about the brother of Solomon Spaulding? Okay, you think he would know what's going on, right? Brother of Solomon Spaulding?
Richard Oh yeah, yeah.
Gerrit Yeah, should we read what he has to say? In our continuing effort to bring anti-Mormonism to the people.
Richard Bill Spaulding, what's his name?
Gerrit It's John Spaulding.
Richard Oh, John, okay.
Gerrit But we'll guess on Bill though.
Richard I always go with Bill.
Gerrit Most of them are named William, but this guy's named John. Solomon Spaulding was born in Ashford, Connecticut in 1761, and in early life he contracted a taste for literary pursuits. After he left school, he entered Plainfield Academy where he made a great proficiency of study and excelled most of his classmates. He next commenced the study of law in Wyndham County, in which he made little progress, having in the meantime turned his attention to religious subjects. He soon entered Dartmouth College with the intention of qualifying himself for the ministry where he obtained a degree of AM and was afterwards regularly ordained. After preaching three or four years, he gave it up, removed to Cherry Valley, New York and commenced the mercantile business in company with his brother Josiah. In a few years, he failed in business and in the year 1809, he moved to Conneaut, Ohio. The year following, I removed to Ohio and I found him engaged in building a forge.
Gerrit I made him a visit in about three years and found that he had failed and considerably involved in debt. He told me they had been writing a book, which he introduced to what he intended to have printed, the avails of which he thought would enable him to pay off his debts. The book was entitled Manuscript Found, of which he read to me many passages. Okay, so John is not just saying, I know my brother wrote a book that was about whatever we're about to learn it's about, but he read it to me, that's how I know that this is where the Book of Mormon.
Richard Classic John, am I right?
Gerrit Well, John's gonna John, it's what he does. It was a historical romance, and again, in the 19th century, it means it's a historical fiction. It was a historical romance of the first settlers of America, ah! Endeavoring to show that the Americans, the ah isn't in the book, just so everyone knows, that was, that was-
Richard It'd be funny if he was saying that.
Other And thus we see how vain are the- Anyway.
Richard You can do your Mormon, because that's how he would write it.
Other Because he wrote it, not Mormon. My favorite part of the Book of Mormon is when Mormon can't resist providing editorial commentary.
Richard Oh yeah, thus we see.
Other Yeah, I love it. And thus we see how vain and foolish an argument, and so we see that these people turned away. I mean, he's just, Mormon can't help himself from saying, well, this is ridiculous.
Richard The guy's so frustrated.
Gerrit He's well aware of what it's like when people turn away from the Lord, because he's experiencing it. Anyway, back to our anti-Mormonism. It endeavored to show that the American Indians are descendants of the Jews or the Lost Tribes. It gave a detailed account of their journey from Jerusalem by the land of the sea till they arrived in America under the command of Nephi and Lehi. Well, I guess I've just proven that the Book of Mormon was invented by Solomon Spaulding because John.
Richard This is definitive.
Gerrit John says it even has Nephi and Lehi in it.
Richard He read it to him many, many, many, many times.
Gerrit He's read it so many times. They afterwards had quarrels and contentions and separated into two distinct nations, one of which denominated Nephites, the other Lamanites. Cruel and bloody wars ensued in which great multitudes were slain. They buried their dead in large heaps, which caused the mounds so common in this country. Their art, sciences and civilization were brought into view in order to account for all the curious antiquities found in various parts of North and South America. I have recently read the Book of Mormon and to my surprise, oh boy, that's probably the greatest lie.
Other What are you saying here?
Gerrit To my surprise, I find nearly the same historical matter, names, et cetera, as were in my brother's writings. I well remember that he wrote in an old style. He commenced every sentence with, and it came to pass. And now it came to pass. The same is in the Book of Mormon. And according to my best recollection and belief, it is the same as my brother Solomon wrote, with the exception of a religious matter. By what means it has fallen into the hands of Joseph Smith, I am unable to determine. John Spaulding. Well, that sounds pretty powerful.
Richard That's powerful.
Gerrit It's just made up, even the end it came to pass. I mean, he's read both. How could he not know that?
Richard He was shocked, surprised, stunned, amazed.
Gerrit Maybe we should read Martha Spaulding's affidavit.
Richard Martha is?
Gerrit The wife of John Spaulding. So John's wife. John, the brother, so this is the sister-in-law of Solomon Spaulding.
Richard So John, great source, his wife, better source.
Gerrit Well, I mean, if it's anything like me and Angie, me, source, Angie, better source.
Richard Yeah, me, source, Becky, better source.
Gerrit Yeah. You know what? We should just call our podcast, Our Wives Are a Better Source. That's what we should call it. I was personally acquainted with Solomon Spaulding about 20 years ago. I was at his house a short time before he left Conneaut. I don't know, am I saying that right? I have no idea.
Richard Oh yeah, you're nailing it.
Gerrit It looks like Connecticut with an E-A-U-T at the end.
Richard In French, they would just drop the last seven letters.
Gerrit Can you laugh? Someone who speaks French is now busily writing us an e-mail to let us know how wrong we are.
Richard We won't be able to read it. It's in French.
Other But although they're going to write in English to tell us, I served my mission in Quebec. You know what?
Richard Let's see how their English is.
Other Let's see how it goes. Okay, so we're going to decide...
Richard You know what? I dare you. I dare you to come at us with your poor English and your proper French.
Gerrit I feel like this is your rebellious French-Canadian side coming out.
Richard I'm obviously kidding. I love the French very deeply, and I feel a close kinship to them and to their Wonder Bar chocolate.
Gerrit And the fact that we don't have the ability to properly pronounce things, that's...
Richard Yeah, that's not my...
Gerrit The pronunciation of things is not our forte. We just want you to know that we're not good at it. Anyway, so he stayed there. He was then writing a historical novel founded upon the first settlers of America. He presented them as an enlightened and warlike people. He had for many years contended that the Aborigines of America were descendants of some of the lost tribes of Israel. And this idea he carried out in the book in question.
Richard Oh, Martha.
Gerrit The lapse of time which has intervened prevents my recollecting, but few of the leading incidents of his writings, but the names of Nephi and Lehi are fresh in my memory. They're fresh. And being the principal heroes of his tale, they were officers of the company which first came from Jerusalem. He gave a particular account of their journey by land and sea till they arrived in America, after which disputes arose among the chiefs, which caused them to separate into different lands, one of which was called Lamanites, the other called Nephites.
Richard Boy, this is really stacking up against Joseph.
Gerrit I'm just saying.
Richard Or Sidney or whoever wrote it.
Gerrit We all know that it was just everybody. At this point, someone's going to start making the claim that AI wrote it. Between these were recounted tremendous battles, which frequently covered the ground with the slain, and their being buried in large heaps was the cause of the numerous mounds in the county. It's almost like she's... That's almost word for word of what her husband just said.
Richard Well, they read the same thing, Gerrit. I mean...
Gerrit I have read the Book of Mormon, which has brought fresh to my recollection the writings of Solomon Spaulding. And I have no manner of doubt that the historical part of it is the same that I read and heard more than 20 years ago. The old, obsolete style and phrases of, and it came to pass, are the same.
Richard Oh, Martha. Oh, Christmas.
Gerrit Well, we now know. We now know where the Book of Mormon obviously comes from.
Richard You know what, though?
Gerrit Let's go beyond the Spaulding family to other credible witnesses.
Richard Well, I mean, they're pretty definitive and they're pretty...
Gerrit Well, let's see what Henry Lake has to say.
Richard Oh, yeah, okay. Who's Henry Lake?
Gerrit Well, we'll find out.
Richard Let's go on the journey together, Gary.
Gerrit Let's do it. Let's go into a time when we know who Henry Lake is. I left the state of New York late in the year 1810 and arrived at this place about the 1st of January following. Soon after my arrival, I formed a co-partnership with Solomon Spaulding.
Richard Interesting.
Gerrit Okay. Well, he's his business partner.
Richard His business partner.
Gerrit For the purpose of rebuilding a forge, which he had commenced a year or two before. He very frequently, okay, how could you be more definitive? Very frequently read from a manuscript which he was writing, read to me from a manuscript which he was writing, which he entitled Manuscript Found and which he represented as being found in this town. Okay. I spent many hours hearing him read said writings. Now, first of all, that you're a better business partner than I would be. I can only imagine. I just need you to help pay off this forge.
Other This is ridiculous.
Richard Well, but if it's the Book of Mormon, it's a pretty good book. So you're, you know what? You're not being fair to Henry Lake.
Other I'm not being fair to Henry Lake.
Gerrit I spent many hours hearing him read said writings and became well acquainted with its contents. He wished me to assist him in getting his production printed, alleging that a book of this kind would meet with a rapid sale. I designed doing so, but the forge was not meeting our anticipations. We failed in business when I declined having anything to do with the publication of the book. This book represented the American Indians as the descendants of lost tribes, gave an account of their leaving Jerusalem, their contentions and wars, which were many great. One time when he was reading to me the tragic account of Laban, I pointed out to him what I considered an inconsistency, which he promised to correct. But by referring to the Book of Mormon, I find to my surprise that it stands there just as he read it to me then. Now, how could you get more definitive than this? I totally remember. He brought up this guy, Laban, and he said something that like wasn't accurate about it.
Gerrit And I looked in the Book of Mormon, it's still there.
Richard Hold on. I'd like to start with, there's a couple of things, just really quick. And we'll get back to the anti-Mormon stuff really quick.
Gerrit Very soon.
Richard Very soon. First of all, Henry Lake was right. 200 million copies printed. So it would have done great numbers.
Gerrit Well, then how come Henry Lake pulled his support for it?
Richard Oh, that's what I'm saying. One of the greatest blunders.
Gerrit The great blunders of Henry Lake.
Other A land war in Asia and not going through with the pretty much...
Gerrit Never going against the Thessalian when death is on the line.
Richard So that's number one. Number two, I feel like them saying that they've read the Book of Mormon, but they're only referencing things that have happened in the first couple of chapters.
Gerrit Well, look, they're like all of our teenagers.
Richard That's what I'm saying.
Gerrit Have you read the Book of Mormon?
Other Yeah, I've read it. What part? I'm Nephi having been born of Googly Parrot.
Richard I got to like Laban and stuff. No one's mentioning Helaman hasn't been referenced.
Other I mean, once you've read the deception that is First Nephi, why do you need to go all the way through it?
Richard I'm just saying, I've read the entire Book of Mormon. I'd like to reference the first chapter.
Gerrit Yeah, we've talked about Lehi, Nephi, and now Laban.
Richard Yeah, we're at chapter three, four.
Gerrit Well, let's see what he has. What's the air about Laban, Charlie?
Richard Oh my gosh.
Gerrit Should we continue?
Richard Yeah, please.
Gerrit I think our listeners at home are saying, you know what? Let's continue. And by that, I mean searching for another podcast and listen to that instead. Some months ago, I borrowed the Golden Bible, put it in my pocket and carried it home, and I thought no more. But after about a week, my wife found the book in my coat. Oh, sounds like somebody was in trouble. As I hung it up and commenced reading it aloud as I lay up on the bed, she had not read 20 minutes until I was astonished to find the same passages in that that Spaulding had read to me more than 20 years before from his manuscript found. I mean, this is amazing evidence, isn't it?
Richard Yeah, it is.
Gerrit Could we get better than this?
Richard Astonished.
Gerrit Astonished.
Richard Surprised. Shocked.
Gerrit Since then, I have more fully examined the Golden Bible, and I have no hesitation in saying that the historical part of it is principally, if not wholly taken from Manuscript Found. That's the name of this Solomon Spaulding supposed book. I well recollect telling Mr. Spaulding that the so frequent use of the words, and it came to pass, and now it came to pass, rendered it ridiculous. So he remembers that it kept saying, and it came to pass, written in that solemn biblical style. Spaulding left here in 1812, and I furnished him the means to carry him to Pittsburgh. What a very kind friend you are. I won't help you publish your book, but I will pay to get you out of town, where he said he would get the book printed and pay me. Oh, he wanted some proceeds, but I never heard anything more from him or his writings until I saw the Book of Mormon.
Richard You know, I'm just realizing I shouldn't have said the 200 copies printed part because maybe the Lake family estate is going to come after the proceeds.
Other It's possible.
Gerrit They're like, you know what? Hey, we had everything to do with that. So look...
Richard So that's Solomon's brother, Solomon's sister-in-law.
Gerrit There's a lot more in here than we're going to be able to read. I'm just grabbing a few.
Richard And then his business partner.
Gerrit Yes. Yep. Should we grab another one? The people listening at home, you want to hear more of this, don't you?
Richard I continue to be astonished with these witnesses.
Gerrit Well, they're so good.
Richard And these are affidavits, Gerrit?
Gerrit Oh, yes. They're things that people said happened.
Richard They're signed affidavits?
Gerrit Well, we don't have... I mean, they probably are. We don't have the originals.
Richard But so Hurlbut said that they said this.
Gerrit Yes. I mean, and they probably did. I mean, look, he's being paid to collect affidavits. I don't know what he's giving them.
Richard So, okay, so Hurlbut's being paid to find people that have evidence that the Book of Mormon was from this, and these people are saying that it is.
Gerrit Yes.
Richard Probably.
Gerrit Yeah, they're being pretty definitive. Do you want to... Here's a couple more. Here's from someone by the name of Oliver Smith. Get a little bit of a Smith in there.
Richard Joseph's third cousin?
Gerrit When Solomon Spaulding first came to this place, he purchased attractive land and surveyed it out and commenced selling it. When engaged in this business, he boarded at my house for nearly six months. He lived with him for six months.
Richard Wait, is this maybe where he wrote some of this?
Gerrit Let's find out. All of his leisure hours were occupied in writing a historical novel.
Richard Oh my gosh. I haven't read this, but I just guessed.
Gerrit You know what? I'm about to find the Richard LeDuc affidavit in here. All of his leisure hours were occupied in writing a historical novel founded upon the first settlers of this country. He said he intended to trace their journey from Jerusalem by land and sea till their arrival in America, give an account of their arts, sciences, civilization, wars and contentions, and this way he would give a satisfactory account of all the old mounds so common in this country. During the time that he was at my house, I read, so again, he's not saying he heard, I read and heard 100 pages or more. Lehi and Nephi were represented by him as leading the characters from the first started to America.
Richard Alright, hold on. Just keep going.
Gerrit You're going to have to go to the 1830 Book of Mormon.
Richard I'm going to go to the 1830 Book of Mormon. And find 100 pages in and see if we can find anyone named other than Lehi and Nephi.
Gerrit Here's what I figured. They started off and then they flipped to the middle, and it was third Nephi.
Richard There's nothing but Nephi's in here.
Gerrit It's like John back then.
Other It's kind of like Daryl and this is my brother Daryl, and this is my other brother Daryl.
Gerrit Do you know that reference?
Richard I don't.
Gerrit That's from the Bob Newhart Show.
Richard I never watched the Bob Newhart Show.
Gerrit I want everyone to know.
Other How old do you think I am?
Richard Did you watch it on Nick at Night, or how did you watch it?
Gerrit It was on TV in Idaho because we had nothing on TV in Idaho.
Richard It's from the 70s.
Gerrit It was being replayed.
Other You're a year older than me. It was brand new in Idaho. It was the first time it had ever been broadcast in Idaho. Shelley, Idaho.
Gerrit Okay, during that time, Leigh-I-Nefi were represented by him as leading characters when they first started for America. Their main object was to escape the judgments which they supposed were coming upon the old world. But no religious matter was introduced as I now recollect. Just before he left this place, Spaulding sent for me to call on him, which I did. He then said that although he was in my debt, he intended to leave the country and hope that I would not prevent him. For, says he, you know, I've been writing the history of the first settlement of America, and I intend to go to Pittsburgh and there live a retired life till I've completed the work. And when it is printed, it will bring me a fine sum of money, which will enable me to return and pay off all my debts. The book, you know, will sell, as everyone is anxious to learn something on the subject. This was the last I heard of Spaulding or his book until the Book of Mormon came into the neighborhood. When I heard the historical part of it related, I at once said, this is the writings of old Solomon Spaulding.
Gerrit Soon after I obtained the book and on reading it, found much of it the same as Spaulding has written more than 20 years before.
Richard By the way, so page 100 is around 2 Nephi chapter 10.
Gerrit It's just all Nephi.
Richard It's all Nephi. It's funny that, is Isaiah brought up here? He just copied that, right?
Gerrit No, I mean, not here. There are people who will bring that up, but not-
Richard Not later. In this book?
Gerrit Not in this book. No, it's brought up by early on. It's the fact that there are portions of the Bible that are, quote, copied in.
Richard I would imagine that that would be a popular thing.
Gerrit That comes from Alexander Campbell, one of the early antagonists.
Richard Sure.
Gerrit He's not in any way upset that multiple of his ministers are leaving his faith and joining the church.
Richard Unrelated.
Gerrit Unrelated, totally unrelated, but yes. So, I mean, look, we read several of these. Maybe we'll do just one more and then move on. What do you think?
Richard That sounds great. Gerrit, have you ever heard of the term Gelman amnesia? You ever heard that?
Gerrit If I did, maybe I forgot. Maybe I haven't.
Richard It's possible. So it's actually a term that's coined by Michael Crichton, the author.
Gerrit Oh, yes.
Richard Okay, so he has a friend.
Gerrit Chaos theory.
Richard He has a friend who's a physicist, who's a very smart person. His name is Murray Gelman. And so what happens is that there was a newspaper article about something relating to something that his friend, Murray Gelman, would be very knowledgeable of as a physicist. And as he read the article, he's like, this is all garbage. Like, none of this is true. The people that are writing this, the journalist writing this has no idea. They don't know what their idea, what they're talking about. And yet the next day when he will read an article from that same newspaper about something else that he doesn't, that he's not an expert on or doesn't know anything about.
Gerrit He just takes it at face value.
Richard He takes it at face value. And so Michael Crichton coins this term as Gelman amnesia. And I think that this is one of the things that's the most frustrating with all of the anti, with, with, cause you're about to blow this whole thing up.
Gerrit No, no, I think we'll just let it stand.
Other And this is how we decided to go out and stand in a podcast. Spaulding Manuscript is the Book of Mormon.
Richard But this is, this is the point, right? Is that you are, are about to talk about the ridiculous nature of these claims. And then later in the book, something else that somebody says about Joseph Smith, someone will just buy and believe.
Gerrit Hook, line and sinker.
Richard Hook, line and sinker with Gilman Amnesia.
Gerrit People buy all these arguments, hook, line and sinker. These arguments are repeated over and over and over again. Missionaries in the 1860s, we have their journals where they're trying to preach and people dismiss them and say, well, we all know that your book just comes from Solomon Spaulding's manuscript.
Richard I heard that on my mission, on my mission in California, I heard that.
Gerrit Yeah, I heard it in Wisconsin, but mainly as people were driving by and shooting paintballs at us.
Richard That's right.
Gerrit Yeah.
Other They were to drive by shooting and by the way, it's a Solomon Spaulding.
Richard I got hit with a giant, like a seven or a seven eleven full big gulp chucked right up my tire. It was quite a shot.
Gerrit Did it knock you off your bike?
Richard It did knock me off my bike, but it was a red soda and it did the trick.
Other It sure did.
Gerrit So you were soaked in red soda. Oh, yeah.
Richard Just dripping from it. It was like a 64 ounce.
Gerrit I'll never forget how angry my companion was that he got shot by these paintballs. I mean, it's a good thing they drove away. I think he would have assaulted them. He was to people paintballing him as a missionary, as I am about to be to the Solomon Spaulding manuscript claims. Anyway, one last affidavit, and there are more. I'm just grabbing some. OK, this is a shorter one from Aaron Wright. OK, Aaron Wright. I first became acquainted with Solomon Spaulding in 1808 or 1809 when he commenced building a forge on the creek. When at his house one day, he showed and read to me a history that he was writing of lost tribes of Israel, purporting that they were the first settlers of America.
Richard So this is three or four years earlier than when he was boarding at the Smith home.
Gerrit This is a legacy of love.
Richard The non-Joseph Smith home.
Other The non-Joseph Smith, Oliver Smith.
Gerrit Purporting that they were the first settlers in America and the Indians were their descendants. Upon this subject, we had frequent conversations. He traced their journey from Jerusalem to America, as it is given in the Book of Mormon, accepting the religious matters. The historical part of the Book of Mormon, I know to be the same as I read and heard from the writings of Spaulding more than 20 years ago. The names, more especially, are the same without any alteration. That's a pretty bold claim. He told me his object was to account for all the fortifications to be found in this country and said that in time it would be fully believed by all except learned men and historians.
Richard Well, you know what? He just indicted you, buddy.
Other That's that. Well, I'm coming for you. I'm coming for you, Aaron Wright.
Gerrit I once anticipated reading his writings in print, but little expected to see them in a new Bible. Spaulding had many manuscripts which I expect to see when Smith translates his other plates.
Other Oh, this is where all of Smith's stuff is going to come from now, is all of the manuscripts of Solomon Spaulding.
Gerrit In conclusion, I will observe that the names of and most of the historical part of the Book of Mormon were as familiar to me before I read it as most modern history. If it is not Spaulding's writing, it is the same as he wrote, and if Smith was inspired, I think it was by the same spirit that Spaulding was, which he confessed to be the love of money.
Richard Well, there you go. Double dig.
Gerrit Yeah, going at it for two there. So look, all of these people are claiming they read the manuscript. They heard the manuscript read. They're super familiar with the manuscript. I know everything about the manuscript. You don't understand. I've read everything there is to know about the manuscript. Right? The problem is, of course, no one had the manuscript, but that was enough. See, when you're dealing with a hated minority group, you don't actually have to demonstrate the claims that you're making. You just have to have a claim. And it sounds plausible. I mean, my goodness, do you think that Solomon Spaulding's brother would lie about the fact that he read that? Is that what you're saying? Still, we don't have the manuscript, so we say, maybe. Most people didn't say maybe. They said, absolutely. Never mind the fact that this is published in a book designed to destroy this religion. Never mind the fact that all of these people are claiming that they read a manuscript that no one can actually verify.
Gerrit We'll take it. We'll make it the argument that your religion is fake and made up. Well, many years later, and again, let me stress the fact that over the course of years, years, it was argued that where the Book of Mormon came from was the Solomon Spaulding Manuscript to the point where other scholars, religious scholars as well as historians would say, you know, it's been long established that the Solomon Spaulding Manuscript, you know, comes from, comes from this, this, this, I'm sorry, that the Book of Mormon comes from the Solomon Spaulding Manuscript. You can find that in newspapers, you can find it in the Congressional Record. You can find this discussion that everything just comes from the Solomon Spaulding Manuscript. So it had a lot of legs. Well, in 1884, the president of Oberlin College, who is not a Latter-day Saint, through an effort they were making to try to collect the records of early abolitionists in Ohio, they examine some of the files that come out of the Painesville Telegraph Office, which is where Mormonism Unvailed was published.
Gerrit And they find Solomon Spaulding's Manuscript Found, which is, of course, word for word, as we heard so many people testify from the Book of Mormon. I know that in my later rant that Richard's going to point out, I bring up a little bit of this too. You'll have to just give me some grace, both for the rant and for the fact that it's repeated. This is what James Fairchild, the president of Oberlin College, had to say when he examined the manuscript found and compared it against the Book of Mormon. There seems to be no reason to doubt that this is the long lost story. Mr. Rice, myself and others compared it with the Book of Mormon. Okay, so what are we going to find? We're going to find all kinds of the names are all the same.
Richard Well, Lehi Nephi, we're going to hear that.
Gerrit It's all Lehi Nephi. We compared it with the Book of Mormon and could detect no resemblance between the two in general or in detail. So these people said, some of them said it was word for word the same. Many of them said that those names were all exactly the same. Let me continue with what Mr. Fairchild wrote. There seems to be no name or incident common between the two. Yeah, well, I mean, even if the words aren't the same, he just took all of the stories from his book. I know that. Well, according to James Fairchild, not a Latter-day Saint, there is no name or incident that's common to the two. Well, you know, they just kept writing like it came to pass all the time though. I mean, I just remember, I just kept, hey, hey, bro, you can't just keep writing and it came to pass.
Gerrit It's like going to totally turn people off.
Richard Several different people not related said the same thing.
Gerrit Also the same thing. The solemn style of the Book of Mormon, in imitation of the English scriptures, does not appear in the manuscripts. Yes, like every other line was, and it came to pass, trying to write like the Bible, except apparently, no. The only resemblance is in the fact that both profess to set forth the history of lost tribes. And then James Fairchild, because he is an educated man, comes to the conclusion that you have to come to. Some other explanation of the origin of the Book of Mormon must be found if any explanation is required. Now, that comes at the tail end of the 19th century, after people have for 60 years, well, 50 years at least, completely dismissed and ridiculed the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith and everyone who believed in it, because it was so obvious that the Book of Mormon actually just came from Solomon Spaulding's manuscript.
Gerrit And what do you find? Despite how close they were with Solomon Spaulding, despite the fact that they know the names of Nephi and Lehi, nothing, they said, was true. Not part of it, not portions of it. I don't know what caused them to fabricate their stories, but I know that we can definitively demonstrate that the words Nephi and Lehi weren't in that manuscript. Some people were actually so desperate to believe that this was the description of the Book of Mormon that they then actually began to argue, well, maybe he wrote another manuscript, like, I don't know, volume two of Manuscript Found, and that was exactly the same as the Book of Mormon. I mean, because people were desperate, just trying to find a way to sleep at night, that's what they're going to do. Anyway, so we're going to play a clip now that comes from our premium content. In it, I was responding to the fact that people might claim that because Father Smith had a vision that is similar to Lehi's vision of the Tree of Life, that in fact Joseph Smith must have just stolen that part from his father telling the dream and threw it into the Book of Mormon.
Gerrit Ah ha ha ha ha, now we see where it comes from. Richard, do we need to set up this clip any more than that?
Richard No, that's a great way to set it up. In fairness, I was trying to ask an innocent question and talk about...
Gerrit There are no innocent questions with me.
Richard I thought it was great. The passion was real and not manufactured. I thought, like I said, the reason that I love it, and the reason that Becky loves Righteous Indignation, Gerrit, is because it's how I feel and how I wish I would be able to articulate some of those things that I just don't have the knowledge of. And so I think the listeners will like it.
Gerrit Well, thank you so much. Hopefully you enjoy that clip. Thank you for suffering through with us. We will be back to answering more questions next week. What I wish I had an account of is what was it like for Joseph Smith Senior when he first read First Nephi? How incredible must that experience have been to him to read a prophet of 2,400 years earlier having a similar vision of a tree of life and of a great and spacious building?
Richard One of the things that's interesting about that, Gerrit, that is an interesting thought, right? He's like, hey, hey, hey, I had that. But I wonder, because that's interesting, right? And somebody who is antagonistic to the church would be like, oh, OK, well, so that's how Joseph came up with the idea because he just kind of took his dad's story. But that story also sounds like the story that Robert Mason tells to Wilford Woodruff in a similar way. There's tree, there's fruit, the fruit is white, he goes to take it and he can't. Completely unconnected with anything related to Joseph Smith or any of these things. And you've shared multiple experiences where Brigham Young has, like all these people disconnected have similar kind of things. Now, Joseph Smith Sr.'s vision of this is, I mean, that's pretty spot on, but other people have fairly similar.
Richard It's just fascinating how the Lord is preparing these people for coming forth. So when they see that, they're like, boy, that seems familiar to me.
Gerrit Well, and you know, yeah, the Synod can always say, oh yeah. I mean, obviously that's where Joseph Smith took that story. And then he just like copied it into the Book of Mormon, even though in the Book of Mormon, it was like far more detailed and had a lot more things to it and was far more, you know, more expertly written by this farm kid who can't write a letter. But other than that, I mean, that's obviously where he got it. Like, again, that's unisom anti-Mormonism. That's, that's whatever helps you sleep at night. But it doesn't actually tell you where the Book of Mormon comes from. Okay, let's just say for argument's sake, that Joseph Smith steals the idea of the vision of the Tree of Life from his father, which, by the way, wouldn't his father know that he was doing that when his father read that in the book? Wouldn't his dad be like, hey, son, you're like not even to give me writing credit on here.
Other What, what is this?
Gerrit A New York Times article?
Other Aren't you going to, aren't you going to at least give me some kind of credit?
Gerrit Instead is certain that Joseph Smith is a prophet. So, but, but let's just say that Joseph made it all up. Okay, what is that?
Other What does that cover?
Gerrit Like 10 pages of the Book of Mormon?
Other I'll give it to you.
Gerrit You got all those 10 pages, all those 10 pages. Joseph made up from his father's vision that I don't even know whether his father told him. That isn't exactly the same, but is somewhat similar. And so therefore, that's where those 10 pages came from. Now, where do the other 590 pages come from? Are there other people with similar visions? He's just copying them all down?
Richard He's just running from house to house, writing down all the visions that all these people have.
Gerrit And the funny part about that is, even though that's the claim, well, he's clearly just taking this from somewhere else, nobody is making that argument in 1830 when the Book of Mormon is published. Why aren't the residents of the Book of Palmyra saying, oh yeah, that Joe Smith guy kept coming to my house saying, hey, if you ever had any visions of Jesus and stuff, and then he was marking it down, and the next thing I know it was in the Book of Mormon. In fact, you have the exact opposite that happens. You have all of these residents of Palmyra, all of these supposed experts, when Eber Howe in 1834 is collecting his allegations against the Smiths, they put forward that, ah, here is where the text of the Book of Mormon comes from. It comes from not Joseph interviewing a bunch of people and taking their stories.
Gerrit It comes from Solomon Spaulding's novel that he wrote.
Other And Joseph, you know, scratches off Solomon Spaulding's name on the spine, puts his name there, and goes, look, it's the Book of Mormon, I'm a prophet.
Gerrit That's the argument that's being made in 1834. And it's the argument that's going to be made throughout the remainder of the 19th century, actually. You find people struggling with this all the time. I was reading an early missionary's journal the other day, and he is talking all about how everywhere he goes to preach, some minister shows up. This is in the 1860s. Some minister shows up and says, Oh, what about Solomon Spaulding?
Other We all know the Book of Mormon is just invented by Solomon Spaulding.
Gerrit That was the argument to dismiss the Book of Mormon right up until the original Solomon Spaulding manuscript was located. And instead of it being word for word, the Book of Mormon, a non-Mormon, the non-Latter-day Saint, president of Oberlin College, examines it and says that there, not only is it not word for word the same book, there is no name or incident common between the two. Not just, oh yeah, the protagonist of my novel is named, you know, is named B-Fi, not Nephi, it's B-Fi.
Other And, you know, B-Fi is obviously a strong guy.
Gerrit And no, there's nothing. There's nothing similar. And, you know, he makes the conclusion, some other explanation for the origin of the Book of Mormon must be found if any is to be had. So for years, people make the argument, not that Joseph Smith made up the text of the Book of Mormon from people that he talked to or from stories of his dad or from visions that his mom had. They make the argument that someone else wrote it and he just stole it and put his name on it. Only after the Solomon Spaulding manuscript turns out to be the greatest lie in 19th century American religious history. I mean, it probably is. It is something that has perpetrated the halls of Congress when they are talking about anti-Mormon legislation. Part of what they say is, well, you know the Book of Mormon is all just this made up crap that came from that Joseph Smith steal in the Solomon Spaulding novel.
Gerrit All these wonderfully supposedly intellectual people all bought the argument hook, line and sinker. And why did they buy it? Because they wanted to. The easiest thing in the world to do is to convince a bigoted person that their bigotry is right. That's the easiest thing to do. The easiest thing in the world to do is to convince someone that the position they already hold is right. Boy, they will love you as a friend. I'll tell you that. Someone starts telling you, I guarantee that LeBron James is a better basketball player than Michael Jordan. And you say something like, yeah, I mean, look how many more years he played and he has the scoring title. Oh, hey, that guy, he's eating it up. He is all over. Never mind the fact that in your mind, what you're really saying is you got to be kidding me, right?
Gerrit Like you've seen Michael Jordan play, right? Like, like it's great. LeBron's like great. But how many finals did Michael Jordan lose?
Other Okay, the answer is zero of them.
Gerrit So the only thing that stopped Michael Jordan from winning more finals was his dalliance with baseball. But that person, you know, instantly grabs camaraderie with you just because you agree with them and what they already believe. And you see this so starkly with the Solomon Spaulding manuscript claim. Everyone wants an easy explanation for why it is that now hundreds of thousands of otherwise seemingly intelligent Christians believe that Joe Smith Guy is a prophet. It doesn't work to simply just say they're all stupid. It doesn't work to simply just say, well, only idiots would believe that. Of course, they'll still say that. But too many intelligent people, I mean, too many disciples of Christ ministers, too many Methodist and Baptist ministers, too many people who are utterly devoted to the Bible embrace the gospel, the restored gospel of Jesus Christ and join the Church of Christ for that argument to really work.
Gerrit So you need a better argument. And what's better argument is there than, well, the reason why people are being so deceived is the person who wrote this original book, the Solomon Spaulding, he was a minister and he wrote a book that mimicked the language of the Bible and he used all kinds of stuff from the Bible. And of course, he knew the Bible because he was a minister. And that's why people think they're being convinced by the Book of Mormon. But really, it's just the Bible that this minister wrote into that. And people bought it. They bought it hook, line and sinker, and they just had no evidence. Did they have the Solomon Spaulding manuscript in front of them? Nope. What did they have? They had the testimony of a twice excommunicated, multiple times fornicator who said, oh yeah, you know what, in between my fornications while I was on my mission, I was just lounging about the town, probably looking for my next fornication, and happened to come upon the manuscript of Solomon Spaulding.
Gerrit And in between that fornication and the next fornication, I read it and saw that it was literally exactly the same as the Book of Mormon. But instead of leaving the church immediately, I continued to fornicate. Then, after I was finally called back because people were tired of me being the fornicating missionary that I was, I was excommunicated from the church, but then begged to get back into it, even though I'd already read the actual original source of the Book of Mormon. This is the dumbest argument I've literally ever heard in my life. That people put any stock in the idiocy of Dr. Philastus Hurlbut just shows that when people want to believe something, and in more particular, when people want to have a justification to hate something, they will take anything.
Gerrit And if you don't believe me, just pull up Facebook and read literally anything. The evidence that will be presented to you will be so incredibly bad for the arguments that they're trying to make. Why? Because it's driven by hatred a lot of the time. And arguments driven by hatred, they don't have to show their footnotes. They don't have to dot their eyes and cross their Ts, because the person who's listening, they aren't being an objective observer in the first place. They just want to be able to sleep at night feeling justified in their hatred. And that would be my response. I mean, that was kind of a long response to Richard's question about...
Richard In fairness, I was trying to set up that, you know, Robert Mason had a similar dream and he doesn't know Joseph Smith, but...
Gerrit I took it another way.
Richard You took it another way and I'll tell you what, I love the heck out of it. I think we should clip that and make that available on the free side because I love that so much.
Gerrit I feel like I'm a little too angry for the... The premium people know.
Richard Yeah, that was really good. I loved it. It is very, very, very frustrating. You know, one of the things... I didn't do you any favors with the question. In fairness, I was trying to talk about the more of the other thing, but I mentioned antagonists and then... It's my fault.
Gerrit I blame myself. I was triggered.
Richard You were triggered. The other thing is that before we started to... Before we started this episode, we were talking about future episodes and we talked about, in the future, doing one about the Congressional record of anti-Mormonism in Idaho. We still might do that, but that didn't help setting the table for this because you did get pretty worked up by that. Because the arguments that they're making are... They're just ridiculous. And to your point, they believe them because they want to believe them despite any actual evidence about anything ever.
Gerrit Right. And that is... The frustrating part is how many lives are destroyed by Philastus Hurlbut's lies. How many dozens of families... But how many dozens of families are broken apart because the one person won't even listen because, well, they found the Book of Mormon manuscript and it's like just some guy's novel.
Other Oh, really?
Gerrit Have you seen that? Well, no, but I mean like the fornicator, Philastus Hurlbut said he had it.
Other You think that's what they would say?
Richard They would provide...
Gerrit I have a hard time talking about Philastus Hurlbut without calling him the fornicator, Philastus Hurlbut.
Richard If you're playing a drinking game of fornicator for this episode, your three sheets to the wind.
Other So how many of the missionaries do you think are listening on the premium podcast that are playing an alcohol drinking game as they listen? What's the number?
Richard Well, how many are listening from Wisconsin?
Other I don't know. Yeah, well, you got to... You know, it's the only way you're going to get people to listen to you.
Richard Yeah, it was... What is it? You play basketball, we beat you, we teach you, but in Wisconsin, it's not basketball. It's shots.
Gerrit Yeah, yeah, it's like, if I can hold my liquor for another few shots of the Jägermeister, then you have to listen to the First Vision.
Other That's exactly what all of our first discussions were like.
Gerrit I do recall multiple times on my mission being offered alcohol. People offered us alcohol all the time. In part because you'd be out knocking on doors and it'd be super hot, and the guy would answer the door and be like, I don't want to listen to you, but you guys want a beer? You guys look super hot. I mean, yeah, I kind of do.
Other No, no, that's not what I said.
Gerrit But in my mind, I was thinking, I don't want to drink beer, but I am hot and thirsty enough.
Richard I've never been offered more alcohol in my life than at a BYU Texas game in Austin. My gosh, everyone was so friendly.
Gerrit Probably you were being offered the beer by the Texas fans all the while they were telling you that they know everything about your church.
Other That's the best part. It is fun when people are like, I know all about Mormons. Do you want a coffee?
Gerrit I don't know that you know as much about Mormons as you think you do. It's like coming up to a Lutheran and being like, hey, what do you say we go buy ourselves a sale of indulgences?
Other What do you think? Just buy an indulgence? Don't worry, I know all about Lutheranism.
Gerrit The reason why it's frustrating is, look, there are questions that we cannot answer. I got a text from a ward member today saying, I've got a brother-in-law, he's really struggling because he doesn't understand why Joseph Smith would have done this or that. He doesn't understand polygamy. There are questions for which you will not get a definitive answer in this life. Religion, the very fact that it is based upon the belief in God, precludes having objective evidence to demonstrate and verify that it is true. As I've said before many times on the other podcasts, you won't get to a point where you can prove scientifically that Jesus was resurrected. And even if you got to that point, you wouldn't be able to prove that he somehow took your sins upon him.
Gerrit That's not provable. So while we study history, while we look for sources, we always have to understand if we are looking for an explanation for literally everything, we will eventually come to a point where there isn't one, where we won't know until we get to the next life, whether it is how ceilings work or what the pre-mortal life was like or what spirits are like when they're disembodied, we just won't know. On the other hand, if people want to enter in to historical arguments to try to prove that the Book of Mormon isn't true, that the gospel is somehow false, that Joseph Smith made it all up, you better bring something better than twice excommunicated fornicator claiming that he has a manuscript of the Book of Mormon that he won't show anybody.
Gerrit And how crazy is it that someone believed that argument? Philastus Hurlbut is legitimately convicted. Convicted! This is not just Mormon saying like, oh yeah, you guys always slander people and say they're adulterers when they're not. Okay, well, you know, let's say he's not an adulterer. You know what he is according to a court in Chardon, Ohio? He threatened to murder Joseph Smith. He was convicted of, quote, threatening to wound, beat or kill Joseph Smith. Oh, but maybe the non-Latter-day Saint judge who passed that sentence on him was also lying. I know literally anyone who has anything to say that's not my argument, they're also all lying. Reality is he's the worst possible source of all possible terrible sources.
Gerrit And yet you still have people running around, thinking that they're smart, quoting him as if he's a great source. I often have people present to me very bad sources. Look, some of them from inside of our church, trying to make the point that they want to make, trying to prove that this is how Joseph translated the Book of Mormon or this is what we should really think about the Word of Wisdom and on and on and on. And what's really frustrating is you go to those sources and you see where the person is deliberately, not including a source that would be not very helpful to them. Hey, I noticed that you mentioned this prophet from 1860, this apostle, but you didn't mention President Nelson last week. Kind of seems like you may want to say what President Nelson is saying, right? I mean, so why aren't you saying it?
Gerrit And I've had that experience both inside of the church and outside of the church where you demonstrate to someone that the thing that they're taking as a fact is in fact riddled with errors, historically provable errors, and they don't miss a beat. Yeah, well, I mean, what about the Book of Abraham then? I mean, we just sat down to have a conversation where you said this X is the reason why you don't believe. And as soon as we discussed it to the point where you realized that you have no idea what you're talking about, instead of going, huh, I don't know what I'm talking about, you say, yeah, well, what about this?
Richard Gerrit, I will say that that is one of the things that has been the most fascinating as your occasional sidekick on these things, where we go and talk to folks, and they will come in, and they always lead with their strongest case, right? You know, why wait? So that they come for the heavy, or they come with the heavy, and they go for it. And very quickly, they realize that they don't know what they're talking about, and that the sources that they're referencing have actually to your, you know, one of the things that you say all the time is don't make an argument based on poor sources that support something that's faith promoting, because if you are doing that, then you're setting yourself up potentially to get wiped out. Well, so, you know, not every blogger or whatever does that, although my understanding is that the academic rigor on TikTok is pretty decent. Oh, through the roof.
Gerrit I mean, they're being peer reviewed. The only people who ever talk about anything on there are people who have PhDs in that field.
Richard Well, but so, but I've seen that again and again and again, that the reason that they're so upset is this thing, and then they just immediately. And so one of the things that's incredibly valuable in what you are describing there is that there are many people that listen to this podcast that have people that they love, that are friends and family. And see what happens when we have that discussion and they bring up that particular topic, how quickly then they just go to the next thing. It shows a level of just kind of dishonesty to what it is that you're actually talking about. Because that isn't the issue. It must not be because the next thing that wasn't an issue five minutes ago, now that one's the biggest one that ever was.
Gerrit Yeah. And then if you resolve that one, well, then it's the next one. I mean, part of that is that's the design of anti-Mormon material. It is a mile wide but an inch deep. There's a problem with everything. And if you don't have a problem with X, well, then you should have a problem with Y. And if you don't have a problem with Y, you should have a problem with Z. And what would normally happen in a normal everyday life is if you had a trusted friend who wanted you to invest in his five different business opportunities, and after you invested in the first one, he stole all of your money, beat you up and burned your house down, you probably wouldn't invest with him on the second one. In normal interactions with people, when someone proves themselves to be an absolute dishonest purveyor of information, you don't run right out over the next thing they say and jump all over it and say, yes, I'm going to follow that.
Gerrit But anti-Mormonism has this, part of the appeal of it is it makes people feel like that they are experts. It makes them feel like they know more than anyone else around them. And sometimes that pridefulness plays a role. I no longer have to go to church sitting there thinking, and I really do need to repent. Instead, I can hear Sister Johnson get up and bear her testimony of Joseph Smith. And in the back of my head, instead of saying, you know what, I need to change, in the back of my head say, well, sure. Sure, she claims she has a testimony of Joseph Smith, but she doesn't even probably know about Helen Kimball. Right. I mean, that allows you to not let the spirit work on you because you think you already have things figured out.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.

Quote board

Make a share card from any line

If ever you're looking to blame something on someone, blame it on someone who's dead. It's the best move because they can't defend themselves, at least not now.

GerritBanter

Well, first of all, if I blamed her, no one would believe it.

RichardBanter

You know what? We should just call our podcast, Our Wives Are a Better Source.

GerritBanter

Number two, I feel like them saying that they've read the Book of Mormon, but they're only referencing things that have happened in the first couple of chapters.

RichardBanter

So Michael Crichton coins this term as Gelman amnesia.

RichardInsight

See, when you're dealing with a hated minority group, you don't actually have to demonstrate the claims that you're making. You just have to have a claim.

GerritInsight

The easiest thing in the world to do is to convince a bigoted person that their bigotry is right.

GerritInsight

As I've said before many times on the other podcasts, you won't get to a point where you can prove scientifically that Jesus was resurrected.

GerritInsight

I mean, they're being peer reviewed. The only people who ever talk about anything on there are people who have PhDs in that field.

GerritBanter

It is a mile wide but an inch deep.

GerritInsight

More from this episode

Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.

Claim check

What critics say, and what the episode found
The Book of Mormon was copied from Solomon Spaulding's novel.
Joseph took Lehi's vision from his father's dream.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.

Take it to class

Ready to copy into a lesson or a text

For 50 years people dismissed the Book of Mormon as Solomon Spaulding's novel, until the manuscript was found and shared nothing with it.

Several sworn witnesses "remembered" Nephi, Lehi and "it came to pass" in a book that contained none of them. A confident claim isn't evidence.

Hurlbut, the source of it all, was twice excommunicated and convicted of threatening Joseph's life. Check the source before you believe the claim.

Some questions won't be answered in this life, but historical attacks still have to meet the rules of evidence.

Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.

Banter bin

The running jokes, for people who skip ahead
Gerrit goes hard in the paintPart two, ending with the premium-show rant about "the fornicator, Philastus Hurlbut" (0:47, 47:51, 57:46).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagRichard drops "Brown," and her many descendants are coming for him (1:15).
Blame a dead relativeRichard's great-great-grandfather who only managed one acre in Montreal; blaming Becky wouldn't work because no one would believe it (6:46).
Our Wives Are a Better SourceGerrit's proposed new podcast name (15:01).
AstonishedEvery affiant is astonished, surprised and shocked by what they find (22:38).
Mispronouncing every nameConneaut, and the French speakers who'll write in English (15:16).
IdahoBob Newhart reruns were brand new in Shelley, Idaho (26:48).
Richard and the missionariesPaintballs in Wisconsin and a 64-ounce red Big Gulp that knocked Richard off his bike in California (31:11).
Unisom anti-MormonismCopying Lehi's vision from his dad is whatever helps you sleep at night (44:14).
Teach you in WisconsinHold your liquor for a few more Jägermeister shots and they'll hear the First Vision (58:18).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

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Deep dives the episode points toward
Read the Spaulding manuscript side by side with the affidavits in Mormonism Unvailed (36:58).
Philastus Hurlbut's excommunications and his 1834 trial in Chardon, Ohio (1:01:58).
Gell-Mann amnesia and how it applies to online claims about church history (29:09).
Dreams of a tree of life among early converts, from Joseph Smith Sr. to Robert Mason (42:59).
How the Spaulding theory reached the halls of Congress during anti-polygamy debates (49:55).
SOT Litner · S4E20.