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Live in Palmyra
S4E23 · Anti Mormon Legislation
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Standard of Truth · Season 4 · Episode 23 · 1:08:36

Anti Mormon Legislation

An 1860 Republican plan in Congress promised to 'give the public lands to the people,' 'settle the slavery question,' and 'extinguish Mormonism.'

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The question ·

Taylor would like some more elaboration around the laws that were passed or attempted to pass around eradicating the early members of the church slash pioneers.

Taylor (listener)

Recorded live in Palmyra halfway through the summer tour, Richard fires quick-hit questions from tour-goers. Gerrit explains why Joseph Smith picked Sidney Rigdon as his 1844 running mate even though they had grown apart, how often early Saints held sacrament meetings, and his 'Mount Rushmore' of restored doctrines, starting with the premortal life. Asked about the stone box at Cumorah, Gerrit points to David Whitmer and other accounts. Then Taylor asks about laws aimed at wiping out the Saints. Gerrit traces how the new Republican Party paired polygamy with slavery, reads a Maine congressman's 1860 plan to 'extinguish Mormonism' through the Homestead Bill, and notes why Utah Saints didn't celebrate Lincoln's election.

Who comes upJoseph SmithSidney RigdonJohn C. BennettAlmon W. BabbittDavid WhitmerEdward StevensonStephen FosterAbraham LincolnDallin H. Oaks
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Live in Palmyra

The hosts record in front of tour-goers, some there only because of their spouses.

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Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my erstwhile companion, now ABD, Professor Richard LeDuc.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. Thanks for having me back.
Gerrit Well, because you're APD, I decided, it was really touch and go. If they turned down your proposal, It really was. We were shopping for somebody else. We were going to create the Philastus Hurlbut Scholarship.
Richard Well, Gerrit, we're joined here on the Standard of Truth Tour. We're in Palmyra, as we speak, in the great best western Palmyra in.
Gerrit That's probably advertising they don't want.
Richard Yeah. So we're here in Palmyra as part of the tour. We're about halfway through the tour. We've seen a lot of awesome sites and we're joined by even more wonderful people. And so we're doing the live recording. This is going to drop much, much later because we're actually recording it on Thursday evening.
Gerrit And we've already received multiple inquiries from people, angry and demanding that their content that they get for free comes to them earlier. It is a very interesting thing that people pay nothing for it, and yet are really angry about it. But anyway, I think maybe everyone who listens is a teenager because that's how my teenagers respond. Oh, your car with your gas and probably your insurance? Are you coming back to your house? A lot of your stuff around here, isn't there? Anyway.
Richard So, Gerrit, we received many great questions from the Litners and participants here in the tour. Let me just stop you for a minute.
Gerrit Oh, okay. Yeah. It's important to know that on all of these tours, there's always a few people on them who've never ever listened to the podcast because they love their spouse. And so, their spouse is like, we've got to go on this podcast and... We'll cut it out.
Richard We'll fix it in post. No, we're going to fix it in post. We want to make you look good. We're not making you look good.
Gerrit We want to go on this tour. I want to go on this tour. And their spouse, because their spouse loves them, but hates the podcast or doesn't care about the podcast or would rather watch Paint Dry or listen to not Johnny Horton songs, apparently.
Richard I will tell you, so we can go for hate. Apathy is what we try and steer away from. Passion either way brings in...
Gerrit So you want people to hate listen to us?
Richard Well, as long as they're listening.
Gerrit Well, drive the numbers either way. So I apologize to the people who are on the tour essentially against their will. You promised your spouse this trip for her birthday and you're three or four days in going, I deserve something a lot better on mine. This is rough. So hopefully everyone is okay with it.
Richard Yeah, no, thank you. Yep. Okay. All right. We'll get into the questions then. Yep. After that. It's a good promotion for the tour, Gerrit.
Gerrit Yeah. Come on the Standard of Truth Tour. Your spouse will probably hate it.
Richard The only real revenue generating thing in this whole...
Gerrit And it doesn't even do that. All right.
Richard All right.
Gerrit Someday we're going to have a business model that's not barely break even.
Richard Who was Joseph Smith going to have as his vice presidential running mate? These are quick hits.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard Quick hits.
Gerrit What if you asked me that and I was like, I don't even...
Richard I'm actually hoping that's what happens.
Gerrit We don't normally prep a lot. I mean, when I've got to pull up the sources, it does take me some time because I want to be able to read the original sources and stuff. I didn't see these questions literally at all. So Richard kind of read some of them to me, but then my son was playing a basketball game and I was kind of watching it. And then we started talking to the fine folks on the tour, and one thing led to another, and we were arguing about Johnny Horton songs. And so I haven't done enough prep work on this, but this.
Richard Yeah, yada, yada, yada, lobster bisque.
Gerrit Lobster bisque. So it's actually an interesting choice for his running mate. It's clear that Joseph Smith wants to try to make his presidential campaign national. And so with the Council of 50, he is going to assign certain people to go on proselyting slash electioneering missions. So yeah, I mean, that's how. So think about how good your mission would be if instead of sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ, you were talking to people about a presidential candidate they didn't like.
Richard How would that go? So would they start telling about the restored gospel? They're not interested. I see you're not interested. Would you be interested in President Smith?
Gerrit I imagine that it's someone selling stuff out of their coat, and there's one side that watches, and then the other side is bracelets. That's what I imagine. But yeah, so they would go and they'd have meetings. So they'd go and have electioneering meetings all over the place. And people would come to the meeting and they would. They would preach the gospel for part of it, and then they would also say, by the way, Joseph Smith's running for president, and they would share some of Joseph Smith's presidential platform. And so because of this, they wanted to kind of have. They were sending people to places that they were from, right? So, oh, here's this elder's from Tennessee. I'm going to send him to Tennessee to go try to electioneer and preach the gospel. And with Joseph's selection for a vice president is Sidney Rigdon. Now, it's actually kind of odd because by the time he selects Sidney Rigdon, Sidney Rigdon is somewhat, he's certainly not the Sidney Rigdon of yesteryear.
Gerrit He's not the Sidney Rigdon of salt sermon fame that is just so, so devotedly defending Joseph Smith. And this is because in 1842, there is a conflict between Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon surrounding plural marriage, surrounding the accusations that were made through John C. Bennett. Someone will talk about it at some point in season 30, probably 39 even. I've said 30, I want to move it to 39. Season 39, we'll talk about plural marriage, but John C. Bennett is probably the only person, you know, worse than Philastus Hurl, but I mean, he's certainly worse because he's more effective.
Richard Yeah, he was in the First Presidency.
Gerrit Well, yeah, there's that. But I mean, who's counting? But I won't go into the entire conflict, but at least the allegation is made by John C. Bennett that Joseph Smith made a plural marriage proposal to Sidney Rigdon's daughter, Nancy Rigdon. Now, Nancy Rigdon will deny that, and Sidney Rigdon will deny that publicly, and Joseph will deny that, and there's lots of denials that go around, but there still seems to be this kind of growing rift there. And in fact, there's a motion to drop Sidney Rigdon from the First Presidency not too long actually before that episode, and it comes close to passing just because there's this feeling of this kind of disaffection that's going on. And so it is a little bit of a surprise that they pick Sidney Rigdon. Now, if you need someone to be a political orator, you're either going to go with Sidney Rigdon or Almon Babbitt, because those are the two people that are going to just, they're going to preach in a very political fashion.
Gerrit They can get up and speak for hours. And Sidney Rigdon also checks another box, and that is he is from the state of Pennsylvania. And so the idea behind it is that Rigdon is going to be able to kind of marshal some support, and he does. He goes to Pennsylvania, and he's actually on these electioneering missions when Joseph Smith is murdered. And so it is Sidney Rigdon that he intends to have his vice president, and actually it's an open question for historians today of exactly why. Why would Joseph name as his running mate someone who is clearly somewhat disaffected from and through the documents appears to be disaffected from, but then name him as his running mate? And it actually lends a little bit of credence to the Rigdonite claim when Rigdon comes back and says, Oh, I should be the next follower because if Joseph had been president and been killed, I would have been president.
Gerrit So clearly Joseph wanted me to follow in his.
Richard Had Sidney done any polling? Did he know where they were looking in terms of the polls?
Gerrit So surprisingly, Gallup hadn't started yet. It was actually very difficult to determine. They would do these kind of like straw polls. Like the way they would do them is you'd get on like a steamship. And so everyone, you know, you're on a steamship. It's like the only place you're more isolated and cut off from society than on this tour. And you have no, what are you going to do? You know, you can't, it's like you're going to jump off the boat. You might, I guess. And it happens a lot. You'll see it published in newspapers that they'll, they'll pull everyone on the boat. Like, oh, who's your presidential preference? When we pulled everyone on the, on the Maid of Iowa, it was 12 for Van Buren and I mean it, and it's like, it's like a pull out of like seven people that are on this boat. Sometimes as many as a hundred people on the boat. But you'll see that. But they have no, they have no actual polling abilities. They're really just kind of going off of feel, you know, asking your neighbors who are you going to vote for, that kind of thing.
Richard That was good.
Gerrit Is that adequate?
Richard That is adequate.
Gerrit Is that sufficient?
Richard So just a reminder, these are quick hits.
Gerrit You know, the podcast doesn't have to be an hour long. The podcast could end right now and permanently. This will be our final episode of the Standard of Truth Podcast. Richard has finally jumped the shark. All right.
Richard How frequently did church members gather for a sacrament meeting, 1830s till, you know, essentially the end of the Nauvoo period?
Gerrit So this is actually one of those questions that's a little bit ambiguous. It seems like it'd be straightforward, but because we don't have like a daily log of what everyone does, what is clear is that in the early church, they are holding sacrament services. And that's very weird for the rest of the Christian world, because they see the term sacrament as meaning a holy ordinance that is done. And there's lots of them, right? So, you know, marriage is a sacrament. And, you know, last rites is a sacrament, right? For Catholics. Protestants eliminate most sacraments, but the one that they almost universally retain is the sacrament of the Lord's Supper. And so that's why we even call it the sacrament. It's called the sacrament of the Lord's Supper. And we've just dropped off the Lord's Supper, I guess, you know, and so y'all always be careful when you're talking to people from other churches, and you say, oh, we're going to sacrament.
Gerrit That will literally mean nothing to them. Because if you say we're going to our meeting where we take the Lord's Supper, it will mean they'll know exactly what you're talking about. If you say I'm going to sacrament meeting, it is you might as well be trying to tell our Canadian friends Fahrenheit temperatures. You might as well. I'm telling Dave, I'm like, man, it's going to be like 85 degrees. He's like, 85? No, no, 85 Fahrenheit. Oh, oh, oh, oh. Yeah. You know, it was scary for a minute. So the reality is they don't hold. Let me back up, but we won't cut this out just to demonstrate.
Richard We won't cut this out. I'll cut this out.
Gerrit You'll fix this. Yeah. You've never fixed anything. Most Protestant churches do not take the sacrament of the Lord's Supper every week. There are some that do. So don't be like, well, wait a minute, my friends. I know there are some that do, but it is not generalized. Usually, you have special meetings where the Lord's Supper is administered, maybe monthly, maybe bimonthly, or sometimes even only once a year. Because it's not an essential aspect of salvation, the only thing that matters for salvation is faith. Different churches can have a lot of leeway on that. In our early days, it appears that we take the sacrament of the Lord's Supper fairly sporadically, but if anything, more regularly. There are multiple meetings that are held on a Thursday, and they break bread and bless wine and pass it around.
Gerrit And so, not just a Sunday meeting where you're going to have the sacrament, but in fact, they'll have it... In some ways, it almost seems like whenever they get together, they're like, well, we're here, let's bless some wine. And it seems like it's a pretty good method for attracting members. And it starts to become something that is expected that you're going to do this, I think, more after Doctrine and Covenants, Section 59. So Section 59 is where they get to Zion. And when they get to Zion, it is not Zion. They get to Kansas City, and like those of us on the tour who are continuing to Kansas City, you will very quickly learn this isn't really the city of Enoch. And for them, it was even worse because there was no barbecue. But they get there, and it's the very fringes of American civilization. And so because of that, they are, these are rough people.
Gerrit These are people who are criminals, who have moved from the state that they are criminals to the furthest reaches of American power there in Kansas City. And there's not a lot of religion there. In fact, you know, one person says that you could only tell that it was the Sabbath day because the saloons and gambling houses were even more filled on Sunday than were on the other days, right? Or basically anywhere in America today, if we were talking about a Sunday. But it's in that context that they received Doctrine and Covenants Section 59, which is super familiar. Everybody knows it. You've heard it quoted every time anyone's ever had to give a talk in sacrament meeting on keeping the Sabbath day holy. This is the scripture they quoted. It's Doctrine and Covenants Section 59, verse 9, and that thou mayest more fully keep thyself unspotted from the world. Thou shalt go to the house of prayer and offer up thy sacraments upon my holy day.
Gerrit And so after that, there's this kind of revelatory injunction that you are going to have the holy sacrament on Sunday. Now, they're of course still going to have it all throughout other times. You're going to be decades in before you have a very set thing that we really only take the sacrament on Sunday. And even then, Brigham Young is going to be like, I'll show you one better. We'll just do it whenever. I mean, so it will eventually become a codified, codified, codified white. Well, I don't have the ability to say that word.
Richard No, it's very hot. It's 85 degrees.
Gerrit It's 85. It's 85. Celsius. I'm just near boiling. But so was that a short enough answer? It wasn't, was it?
Richard No, you got to get them quicker, but that was better. And I appreciated it. Now, I'm on a lot of Nazarene chat rooms, and our crack research staff looked this up in Communion of the Church of Nazarene chat room.
Gerrit Did you just ask Rocky?
Richard Well, he lives in Idaho, over on the western side.
Gerrit On the Nazarene side?
Richard Tons of Nazarenes. Most of my friends growing up were, and they're super Methodists, right?
Gerrit I don't know if they would like that appellation.
Richard My friend does.
Gerrit But the way that we try...
Richard I mean, Gina would like a word.
Gerrit The way that it's easy to think about them is, they're like Methodists who are already people who really believe you need to live a righteous life. They're already pietistic. They're like people who think Methodists don't live a righteous enough life. And that's what a Nazarene is. They're super Methodists, yeah.
Richard So, I mean, they have it, many of them, once a month. Some wish that they had it once a month. It kind of moves all over the place.
Gerrit You'll find that. And if you get into like a non-denominational church setting, where there isn't even a kind of traditional rule or a governing body, it'll be even more sporadic. So, it's something that we very much take for granted. Every Sunday we go to church, we expect that we're going to take the sacrament of the Lord's Supper, unless it just so happens to be, you know, like state conference, right? That's the only time we don't do it. Which is, you know, back in the day, they still did it during church conferences. They still did it, so.
Richard Yeah, so Nazarenes don't dance, or they're generally not, aren't supposed to dance.
Gerrit Latter-day Saints don't dance well.
Richard We have that in common.
Gerrit I would guess that Nazarenes having a religious injunction against dancing, dance slightly better than we do attempting to dance.
Richard My friend, the way that she would describe it is that she said, we're like Methodists, but in the movie Footloose. That's what she described it. I thought that was very funny. I thought that was very funny. Yeah, it was very good.
Gerrit I appreciate their faith.
Richard Yeah, they were great. All right. All right, Gerrit. The Mount Rushmore of Restored Gospel Doctrines or Teachings.
Gerrit Oh yeah, you want a quick hit on that?
Richard Quick hit. Quick hit. Top four. Go.
Gerrit I'm not willing to categorize them in order.
Richard Okay, you don't? Yeah. No, we're not saying who's Teddy.
Gerrit So we're talking Mount Rushmore of what is different from other Protestants.
Richard Yes, specifically the light and truth restored in the Restored Gospel.
Gerrit Okay, so the first of those, I think the starting place is...
Richard Not to rank them. The first one you're going to say.
Gerrit No, the first I'm going to say in an attempt to speak without being interrupted. Is that the most essential part of our doctrine that we don't recognize affects all of our other doctrines. I mean, maybe we do, but I think I find that a lot of times people don't, is we incredibly undervalue our understanding of the premortal life. First of all, that we had a premortal life, because no one else believes that at all, at all. That is the only way that you existed before you were born, as far as every other Christian believes, is that God knew that God would create you. This is the reason why it's pretty poor when we're on our mission, and we're trying to teach someone about the pre-existence, and we try to take them to Jeremiah. We're like, no, no, and Jeremiah says, before I formed thee in thy mother's womb, I knew thee.
Gerrit That's great. I mean, I see why we try to read it as a pre-mortal life scripture, but it's the least effective scripture to ever quote to a Protestant ever, because their response would be, yeah, God who knows everything, of course knows Jeremiah before he creates him, because God knows everything. That's not to them proof of a pre-mortal life. And so because of portions of the Book of Moses, because of the Book of Abraham, because of Doctrine and Covenants, Section 93, because of other sermons that Joseph Smith gives as well, what we have is an understanding that we had a life, not just an idea that God would create us, but that we lived and existed with our Heavenly Father before we came to earth.
Gerrit And that actually affects the answer to every other single question. Well, why do we need to do X or why does Y happen or why does Z? It's almost impossible to answer any question about theology for us without in some way going back to the fact that we all chose to come here. It is a game changer that we don't realize is a game changer. It's like somehow every college scout allowing Weber State to get Damian Millard. He got zero division one offers. Zero. Except Weber State. People are like, well, how did Weber State land him? Because they answered the phone. And that's it. And he's like, you know, amazing, amazing, amazing player. So how did everyone else miss it? And for us, I feel like we underplay it because the great question of life, the great question that every religion tries to answer, every religion, is why does any of this exist?
Gerrit Why am I here? Why is this world so terrible? Why is there suffering everywhere I look? Why, if there is a God, doesn't God just somehow make it better? Every person who believes in a higher power asks that question in some way, at some time in their life. And for us, we have a very different answer than everyone else does. For other people, the answer is, well, because Adam likes fruit. You know, he ate the apple and fell, and now we're all fallen sinners, and it's all our fault. Which is a great answer right up until you realize that God created Adam knowing that Adam was going to fall, and so therefore God created Adam knowing he was going to make this world terrible. So why did God create Adam knowing he was going to make this world terrible? Well, mysteries of God, glory of God, to bring God glory.
Gerrit And we don't have that answer because we understand through the restoration who we really are. I mean, so maybe part two of that, I don't know if I want to make it a second ahead.
Richard I'm sure this is Abraham Lincoln.
Gerrit Maybe this is just the crazy horse monument.
Richard The crazy horse, the outside looking in, is two hour church.
Gerrit But for us, it really boils down to knowing who we actually are. Because we don't believe that we were created by God at the moment of conception or at birth. We believe that we're actual children of heavenly parents, and so that changes everything. So why are you in this world that is so terrible? Because you chose to come to a world like this. I have an answer that no other Christian would accept, nor would they say is true.
Richard And why did I choose to come to a world like this?
Gerrit Why would I choose to come to a world? Because I was presented with plans, and I learned that the only way that I could become like my Heavenly Father was to come to a world filled with suffering and trial. Oh, there's happiness, there's laughter, too much of it in this podcast. There's great moments of triumph, but there's also horrible, horrible injustices. And apparently, coming to a mortal world like this and suffering through those trials is the only way we could become like our Heavenly Father. And knowing that, having watched how horrible it was, we all said, that looks awful. But if that's the only way that I can become like my Heavenly Father, then that's what I'm going to do. So we are here, we know we're here, we understand why we're here, because we made a choice to be here.
Gerrit You may not remember you made that choice. No one else out of this room, no one else anywhere in the world might remember they made that choice. But they are all followers of Christ. They all said, I will follow Jesus. They just don't remember that they said they'd follow Jesus. And that's the reason why our next Mount Rushmore had Jefferson.
Richard Thomas Jefferson, Chair. Not to rank them again. All great in their own way.
Gerrit Hold these truths, be self-evident, whatnot. But the next truth is that we believe in a different type of salvation. First of all, we don't believe in eternal burning and hellfire hell. As President Oaks made very clear two conferences ago, with exceptions too few to mention, all of our Heavenly Father's children are going to a kingdom of glory. That doesn't mean that we're not going to regret sins and suffer for sins, but that's not what other Christians believe. They believe if you aren't right with God, you go directly to hell, you do not pass go, you don't collect $200, and you cook and writhe in agony forever. We don't believe that. And we don't believe that because we believe, again, going back to a pre-existence, we don't believe it because we all chose to follow Jesus to come here.
Gerrit And that's what our first estate is. So because we chose to follow Jesus in the first place, all of us will eventually go to heaven. Some level of heaven. The lowest of which Joseph describes as being bliss. Bliss. I've said it many times on the podcast, but you know what? You're a one-trick pony. You say it all the time.
Richard Well, there's a lot of people here that haven't heard it.
Gerrit Yeah, because they're all the spouses. They're hating every moment of the tour.
Richard They're like, the final tip is in about an hour. Let's get this thing rolling.
Gerrit I saw the Celtics rolling at four and a half.
Richard Four and a half, you gotta hit that. They were six and a half earlier.
Gerrit Well, yeah.
Richard Again, like the reference. President Hinckley's 2005 talk on gambling.
Gerrit We're not actually gambling, although I did see a casino on the way here. But the reality of it is that there's four Latter-day Saints were often accused of believing everyone who's not a Mormon is going to hell. It's literally the opposite. We literally believe everyone's going to heaven. Everyone. Now, again, you are going to suffer for sins that you don't repent of until the resurrection. So I'm not saying it's a cakewalk, but at the time of the resurrection, everyone, everyone's going to heaven. The question is what level of heaven? And that's where exaltation comes into play. Because the church doesn't really exist to bring us salvation. We use the term salvation a lot, and that's fine. If we want to say that, fine. But the real work in the glory of God is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.
Gerrit Salvation from hellfire, you're going to eventually get anyway. Might be painful, but because of the atonement of Jesus Christ, you're eventually going to get to that lowest order of the celestial kingdom that you're looking for. But the real goal of the life that we have, the real purpose of making covenants and persevering through the horrible, horrible difficulties, is to be exalted and become like God. And the idea that we can become like God is simultaneously the most blasphemous thing any Christian has ever said, and also the greatest explanation for our purpose on this earth that anyone has ever said. Is that enough?
Richard That's great. We got one more.
Gerrit That's Teddy Roosevelt.
Richard Becoming like...
Gerrit No, no, no. You want... Isn't Teddy Roosevelt like a little bit less?
Richard Yeah, so what's the...
Gerrit What's the little bit less one now?
Richard They're all equal.
Gerrit Obviously, part of this... I mean, you would have to say our understanding of eternal families, right? So the idea of ceilings, the idea that marriage even exists... I mean, the idea that marriage exists at all in the next life is completely Latter-day Saint theology. And if you read anti-Mormon Christian sites, it will be one of the first places they go to talk about what terrible sinners we are and what place in hell we're going to burn in, which then you can laugh and be like, oh, we don't believe in it, ha ha. Sending me to the hell that doesn't exist, which is exactly what Joseph Smith said. I don't believe in the hell that don't exist. So, there you go. But, you know, apparently, as Joseph is taught, in order to become like God, the way that it happens is through a man and a woman's sealed union. That exaltation is something that is a collective thing.
Gerrit You know, salvation comes from Jesus, but to become like our Heavenly Father and our Heavenly Mother, apparently, it's through these sealed relationships. And that immediately causes all kinds of other questions. What about this person who wasn't ever sealed? And what about this person who didn't get a chance to get married? And what about a five-year-old that dies? And we immediately spin off into every exception that exists. And that's why the prophets are very clear to say, no one's going to be denied that opportunity. Everyone who is otherwise worthy of being exalted is going to have the opportunity to be exalted. And we all believe this. We just don't believe it. It's funny that we all know it. And yet, when it comes push comes to shove, we act like we don't know it. You know, we, the vast majority of every single person who has ever, I mean, majority, 99.99999% of everyone who's ever lived on Earth is only going to get their ceiling by proxy.
Gerrit Almost no one will be sealed in this life. You might be among the lucky few who will have a certitude of your spousal relationship in this life. And so we're already aware that all of these decisions about marriage and sealing, almost all of them are outside. They're after this life. So my advice on those topics, because they are touchy and they are delicate, is don't allow the exceptions, the questions about, well, what about this person? What about that person? Don't allow the questions for which we don't have good answers. Don't allow those questions to undermine what it is you actually know. Because the moment Joseph Smith stops being a prophet, it doesn't matter who's married to who. Literally no other Christian, no other person, believes that marriage exists in the next life.
Gerrit So if you're going to lose your faith over the fact that you don't know how your brother who never got married is going to actually be happy getting married in the next life, don't lose your faith over it. Because the moment you do, he's not married in the next life. It doesn't matter. No one believes in marriage in the next life, but us. And I realize that creates all kinds of sticky questions. I know this very personally. There are loved ones in my life that I love very deeply who will not be married in this life. And it's not fair. And it's not easy. And it's not right. And there's nothing that you can say that makes it okay. Except that God has promised, if they are faithful in the next life, He will make it right.
Gerrit That's the great promise that Joseph Smith talks about with the resurrection. All of your losses will be made up to you. All of them. All of the unfairness. All of the things that you suffered that you shouldn't have had to suffer, Jesus will make right. And sometimes, you know, I don't, I don't know how he's going to do that. How is he going to give back to me the experiences that I've lost in my life because of the trials that I've gone through? I don't know. But I believe in the atonement of Jesus Christ. I believe that our all-powerful God has the power to somehow make up for the inequities of this life. And so I'm not willing to give that up simply because I don't know how everything's going to work out.
Richard That's great. All right. We were at the Hill Cumorah today. So this is a Hill Cumorah-y question. So we know that's what the kids are saying. So we know the plates...
Gerrit This is a Riz question.
Richard I'm hip to the kids. When you say that, the way that that hits my ear is offensive.
Gerrit I just want to point out we're headed to Ohio. If they think we're going to get away without hearing an Ohio comment in the... You know what's coming. You know what's coming.
Richard So we know that plates were stored in a stone box, or at least stones arranged together to contain plates when buried. Are there any accounts of anyone finding the empty stone box? Surely individuals have tried to find the box, maybe even the antis in their zeal to prove there never had been a stone box, hence never plates. Perhaps the box was destroyed by Angel or even Joseph, as it was no longer pertinent to anything.
Gerrit So the question is about the box that the plates were in, correct? Correct. So we actually have multiple accounts from one of the Three Witnesses who talks about seeing the box that the plates were in, and that's David Whitmer. David Whitmer is going to give a lot of interviews in his life. I mean, he's a well-interviewed guy. He's essentially like a rock star of early Mormonism. He's given a lot of interviews. He lives a long life, a lot longer than the other witnesses. And so he will actually, in a couple of them, specifically talk about the fact that he's seen the box. Now, we don't have any contemporary record of that. We don't have him writing a letter to Oliver saying, hey, I just saw the box the plates were in. But David talks about it a lot, long after he's disaffected with our church. And so let me share one of them that he says, I saw the place where the plates were found and a great many others did also.
Gerrit And it awakened an excitement at the time. So he's actually saying other people saw it. It was a stone box. And the stones looked to me as if they were cemented together. That was on the side of the hill a little down from the top, where you all were today. And so he's going to say that he actually goes back to the Hill Cumorah multiple times. So in another interview, he says that he's been there three times been there. And that he's seen, quote, casket that contained the tablets and the seer stone. Eventually the casket, he's calling this the box, the casket apparently, had been washed down to the foot of the hill, but it was to be seen when he last visited that historic place. So at least David Whitmer is saying like, well, there was like a big old rainstorm and there was like a landslide and it washed the stone box out of the top of the side of the hill and it was like just down there at the bottom. And people were like, oh, look, that'll work for a hearthstone or something.
Gerrit I don't know. That's what he says. So David is going to say that multiple times. But there is another source, again, very, very, very late, where Edward Stevenson is a Seventy in the church who goes and collects multiple historical things. He's one of the people that interviews Martin Harris and is very instrumental in bringing Martin Harris back to the church when Martin Harris returns to Utah. He will go and interview someone and he gives an account from an old Palmyra resident that he also saw the box as well. This is what he says. He pointed out the spot of ground where the stone box was placed near the summit and on the west side of the point of the hill.
Gerrit He likewise stated that soon after the rumor so widely spread regarding Joe Smith, I don't know that it was said with that kind of accent, but it is Joe because he's put it in quotes. Joe Smith finding a gold Bible. I'm not sure what that was. Soon after a rumor so widely spread regarding Joe Smith finding the gold Bible that there was great excitement throughout the whole country and that it was about this time that the Rochester Company located and searched for hidden treasure. So he's going to talk about the fact that apparently lots of people are looking around, especially because they can see where that box is. These are all much later statements. So, I mean, they do need to be taken with a grain of salt, but there are people, especially David Whitmer being among them, saying that he has seen three separate times the box that the plates were in.
Richard That's cool. That's a good question. All right, so this now we have about, you know, 15 minutes or so. I think that this question...
Gerrit The people paid for two hours.
Richard I think some people paid for less than one.
Gerrit I'm pretty sure the spouses we mentioned paid for about an hour and a half ago.
Richard So I think this last one, this could be the last one and go the rest of the time here. And this comes from friend of the show, Taylor. Okay, this is the brother of the lady who emailed you when she was in labor. We saw a picture of her.
Gerrit Who lives in the annals of podcast history.
Richard It was tremendous.
Gerrit I mean, she sent us an email while she was in labor, and we have it on fairly good authority from her mother that that was done surreptitiously. Like, no one knew that she was writing the email to us.
Richard Yeah.
Gerrit Is that? So what you're telling us is that you weren't there for the delivery. Yeah, you didn't know because I was in the casino putting some money on the Celtics.
Richard Well, but you got four and a half, Gerrit.
Gerrit Sherry's got to hit that four and a half.
Richard Yeah, I'm just kidding. I'm very sorry, Sherry, and to your entire family. Taylor, friend of the show, Taylor, would like some more elaboration around the laws that were passed or attempted to pass around eradicating. So when I was Taylor's age, I did not know what the word eradicating was, let alone use it in a sentence.
Gerrit I guarantee you weren't listening to Johnny Horton.
Richard Attempted to pass around, eradicating the early members of the church slash pioneers. I think it's referring to when they were in Utah and the whole Civil War thing. All right, that's funny. I'm sorry.
Gerrit The whole Civil War thing. You know, that little temper tantrum you call the Civil War. We went to Gettysburg two days ago.
Richard Yeah.
Gerrit Like, okay, I get it. There was like some people were mad about some stuff. I'm so tired of taking tests on it in school.
Richard That's so great. So when they were kicked out of Missouri and Illinois as well. And, of course, also polygamy. You threw that at the end. Yeah, you threw that at the end.
Gerrit How does this question make it through the censors?
Richard It's a great question, Taylor.
Gerrit A great, great show as always. So that's a pretty deep question. And because it has polygamy attached to it, I want to save it for season 38.
Richard 39.
Gerrit 39 now.
Richard We're moving it back.
Gerrit Season 40.
Richard We'll cut off the last sentence.
Gerrit Well, no. I mean, the problem is I can't really answer the question without kind of answering the other one a little bit. So we'll talk a little bit, just a bit.
Richard How about that? Way to go, Taylor. Way to sneak it in.
Gerrit It's part of it.
Richard It's part of it. It's part of it.
Gerrit It's part of it. So with the Saints moving to Utah, they move at a time of great political turmoil in the United States, which is, for those of you who don't think the Civil War is just a thing, it's kind of a big deal, right? As the nation is lurching toward this cataclysm, they don't know it's going to be cataclysm. Are you okay?
Richard It's so funny. I have to believe he did it on purpose because a comedy writer could not have written it better than Taylor wrote it.
Gerrit Clearly, it's funnier than anything we've said. But the Saints happen to have the misfortune of moving out to Utah at the same time that the political parties in America are going through this kind of lurching change. Prior to the Saints leaving the United States, there were two political parties, the Democratic Party and the Whig Party, the worst-named party in history, right? The Hair Club for Men Party, the Bosley Party. I mean, it's just a terribly... That's great.
Richard It's a hair system.
Gerrit Yeah. The Bosley... Did no one else here know that?
Richard No. Yeah, of course.
Gerrit You said that with a little too knowing it. We'll talk to you later. We'll talk to you later as a politician he needs to have good-looking hair.
Richard His hair looks amazing.
Gerrit Needs to have good-looking hair. That's anonymous still. No one knows who we're talking to. Yeah.
Richard Paul's hair looks great. Paul's a very common name.
Gerrit Yeah. Yeah. An apostle was named Paul.
Richard That's right.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard Paul will cut it out. It won't be in the episode. We'll cut it out. Minute 4708. We'll cut it out. Don't worry about it.
Gerrit We won't cut it out. We're not going to cut it out. So the reality is that the Whig Party was a national party, but it had most of its strength in the New England states and the Midwestern states. And part of its strength was it was the party of evangelical Christianity, which to everybody listening, when I say someone who's an uber Christian, you think Texas, you think Alabama, you're thinking the South. But for the 19th century, the evangelical Christian area, again, this is something everyone already knows. They just don't know that they know it, and that is where's the burned over district? It's not in Alabama. It's New York. In the 1820s and 1830s and 1840s, the most religious part of the nation was New England and the Midwestern states, and actually the southern states were the least religious places. That changes over time. It shifts south and west over the course of time, but in the time period we're talking about, still the most evangelical Christian places are these northern states.
Gerrit And so because the Whigs have most of their power there, there is a lot of Christian rhetoric in their party. I'm not saying that every Whig was a die-hard Christian. I am saying that there was a lot of Christian rhetoric in their party. And of course both parties have Christian rhetoric. The United States is a Christian nation at the time, but the Democrats, for instance, were much less willing to back laws that limited Catholics and Jews' right to vote, for instance. The Democrats were much less enamored by this idea of altering the Constitution to make it more overtly Christian. So let's say it that way. But the Whig Party, because those people were religious, there were many people in that party who wanted a religious end to slavery. They wanted to see slavery end because slavery was a sin in the eyes of God, and if it's a sin in the eyes of God, then we want it out.
Gerrit But it's not very good at that. It actually fails at that. And in 1854, after the passage of the Kansas-Nebraska Act, which I hope will be as household name as the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, some point, that act extended slavery into the Kansas and Nebraska territories, which was most of the Louisiana Purchase Area. That had been the hard line in the sand for anti-slavery people, that slavery would not expand to those places, and the Whig Party failed to prevent slavery from expanding to those places. And so because of that, the Whig Party just collapses. It's a cataclysmic collapse, where you have this major party that had a president of the United States four years earlier, doesn't even exist in that fifth year. It completely shatters. Many of them go and become Democrats, but in the ashes of that, a new party arises called the Republican Party.
Gerrit The Republican Party is not shy about its anti-slavery stance. Instead of being a collection of politicians who also don't want to see slavery expand, the Republican Party's entire purpose was to prevent the expansion of slavery to the territories, and it was overtly evangelical Christian, overtly Christian. And that meant that the same thing, as I said to people on the bus, the same thing that made a Christian in the 19th century hate slavery because they believed that slavery was a sin in the eyes of God is the same thing that made them hate Mormonism, because Mormonism was a sin in the eyes of God. It was a heresy. So it's that same thing. Once you find someone who really believes that they're doing God's will, the only problem is if they're wrong about what God's will is and they're willing to take steps to enact it.
Gerrit So I want to give, there's no way I could go through this entire thing, but I want to give you a little bit of a flavor of the type of rhetoric that Republicans are using against Latter-day Saints on the eve of the American Civil War. You look like you're falling asleep, Richard.
Richard No, no, no. I'm waiting with bated breath. I'm very excited.
Gerrit I think you're looking at the time and hoping you can cut me off.
Richard Well, my wife's setting out treats, and I'm kind of excited about that.
Gerrit So your wife walks into the room, you're not excited to see your wife.
Richard Well, she's holding treats.
Gerrit But she has crispy treats.
Richard Well, she's got all kinds of good stuff over there. I'm pretty excited about a lot of that.
Gerrit Now, not only have you let our entire Listen at Home audience know, everyone in here knows.
Richard Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
Gerrit And they're all going to stop listening to me, because they want treats.
Richard I hit the brisket pretty hard, and I've got a bit of a sweet tooth from all the savory. And so, yeah, it was distracting. I wasn't going to say anything. I was just staring at her.
Gerrit I looked over at you, and you looked like you were either going into some kind of fugue state, or...
Richard No, no, it was a fugue state.
Gerrit The way I am when I listen to Johnny Horton. So let me give you... This bill is attempted to be... It is presented in the Congress in 1860. So remember, 1860 is the same year that the actual secession happens. That's when South Carolina secedes. So this is just prior to the election of Abraham Lincoln. There's all kinds of, you know, just fist bumping, angry, heads butting over slavery. And this is what the Republican Party is putting up for a bill to try to pass. The title of the speech, it is a 19th century title. So buckle up. It's going to be... You're going to be here for a minute. Just like when that one person gets up to bear their testimony and they just went on a trip. You're all about to be that person. But you know who I'm talking about, because every ward has at least one of them where you see them walk up and you're like, okay, well, I don't know where Bill's gone this week, but I'm pretty sure we're going to find out.
Gerrit And then you do.
Richard The problem is he's an adulterer.
Gerrit It's true that Bill the adulterer, you know what, I think he's a church. Them that are whole have no need of a position.
Richard But them that are adulterers.
Gerrit He likes to see you casting a lot of stones. Anyway, the title is Republican Land Policy, Homes for the Million. Give the public lands to the people and you settle the slavery question. Obliterate the frontiers. Dispense with the standing army and extinguish Mormonism.
Richard That's the name of the bill?
Gerrit That's the name of it. So I don't know if they mean to extinguish Mormonism, but they're at least saying that they want to extinguish Mormonism. I mean, I realize that you can't take a politician at their word. Sorry, President Cooney excluded. But I realize you can't take a politician at their word, but they're at least saying they want to extinguish Mormonism.
Richard Okay, so this is the Republican Party, Stephen Foster.
Gerrit Yeah, Stephen Foster is a Republican representative from Maine.
Richard So the Republicans are kind of like the Whigs meet Footloose.
Gerrit The Republicans are, yeah, I mean... I just wanted to sneak that in.
Richard I thought the line was funny, wanted to use it again, didn't land as well as I hoped.
Gerrit Which also happens when you don't know how to dance. So I won't read all of this, but to give you an idea, this is not just a speech that's given April 24th of 1860. The Republican Congressional Committee then orders it to be printed and distributed everywhere. So they don't just think this is a great speech. They want everybody to read this speech. And they're talking about something called the Homestead Act. This is this idea of giving, instead of selling the federal lands like they've been doing, selling federal lands, to just giving lands to anyone willing to move there and to settle. Well, why in the world would you want to do that? Well, in the Latter-day Saints case, if we flood Utah with real Christians by giving them free land, essentially bribing people to move to Utah, then we can extinguish Mormonism. But you know what? Should we read it? Let's read part of it.
Richard The people cry out.
Gerrit They don't seem to be. They seem to be crying out a little bit for Rice Krispie treats. And I can tell Ty's crying out. He wants Rice Krispie treats. He looked twice. My peripheral is just Ty looking back at the table and looking back at the table.
Richard Ty's looked up from his phone twice, and they weren't to look at us. They were to look back at what Becky was doing.
Gerrit Maybe next time don't sit in the front, Ty. You know. Anyway. I can't quite see Austin out of my peripheral, so maybe he's not even looking.
Richard No, Austin's doing the same thing. He's playing Clash Royale.
Gerrit All right. Yeah, no, use the hog riders. Okay. So there is, he's already about part way through speech, because part of what he talks about is how benevolent it would be for the Native Americans if you were to just throw thousands of settlers on their lands. That way they could be properly civilized. I won't read all of that because you all want the Rice Krispie treats, but this is when he turns to the next point of his speech. There is another evil which the remoteness and wildness of our immense territories has fostered into fearful importance. I allude to polygamy, that foulest product of the 19th century, which seems to denote a decline in civilization. Mormonism, we are aware, sprung up in the older states, but polygamy was unheard of until the saints removed beyond the reach of civilization.
Gerrit In Missouri and Illinois, that fanatical and persecuted sect was suspected of some practices inconsistent with morality, but it was not until they felt themselves secure in the mountain fastness of Utah, a thousand miles beyond the frontiers of civilization, that they threw off all the disguise and shocked the moral sense of the country and the world by the open practice of polygamy. They feel secure from molestation in that remote and not easily accessible region. We know what their history has been. They have publicly defied the government. They have trampled on the laws of Congress and notwithstanding the millions of money that have been spent in sending an army to subdue them, they still revel in licentiousness. They insult your judges. They mock your army and murder your citizens. Sir, it was but the other day that a bill was introduced in this body for the abolition of polygamy.
Gerrit It met my hearty support. I had no constitutional doubt or scruple about voting to suppress a practice, which is a felony at common law and an insult to decency and morality. The fact that a practice so monstrous has sprung up in one of the organized territories of the Union proves the necessity of a general law to prohibit it, not only in Utah, but in all the territories. But who is to put the law in force in Utah? There, the institution of polygamy has been permitted to grow up to such proportions as to defy suppression by any ordinary legal process. The whole population sustain and practice it or desire to practice it. Who is to put the law in force? The Mormons? Have we no experience with the integrity of Mormon sheriffs and juries? Have they not screened or acquitted the most heinous murderers who murdered in the cause of polygamy?
Gerrit And are they the men to put in force your law which abolishes their favorite institution? Sir, it is idle to expect such things. The only way to render the abolition of polygamy effectual is to encourage the settlement of the territories as rapidly as possible. To effect this result, no plan could be better devised than the Homestead Bill, which lately passed this body, but I fear is doomed to hang up for a long time in the other wing of the Capitol, if it ever passes that body. If such a law were passed, a very few years would suffice to fill the territories with population and overwhelm the polygamists of Utah beneath the advancing tread of Christian civilization. Another remedy has been suggested for polygamy, namely the division of Utah territory and the annexation of its parts to adjacent states.
Gerrit But this plan seems to me would be inadequate, as the other without the Homestead law to fill the vacant lands with population. What, for instance, would the polygamists of Salt Lake care for the legislative anathemas adopted at La Compton, a thousand miles east, or at Salem, a thousand miles northwest, or at Sacramento, equally far southwest, or at Santa Fe, beyond the interminable and almost impassable ranges of the Rocky Mountains? Is it not apparent that such a scheme would be even less effective than the simple act for the abolition of polygamy, which has been adopted by this body? So there are three measures of Republican policy which admirably harmonize with each other and cooperate for the common defense, the general welfare of the Union. These are the homestead of actual settlers on public lands, the construction of the Pacific Railroad, and the suppression of polygamy. The most effectual way to bring about this last result is to adopt the other two.
Gerrit So, I mean, I could go on, but you kind of get the sense he's not a fan of Mormons. I mean, it could be said at this point that Stephen Foster not, you know, a member of a local elders quorum.
Richard He's not in the Pittsburgh Second Ward?
Gerrit Yeah, he's not in the long-standing Pittsburgh Second Ward. And so, you know, when you say you want the extermination of a group and you start to pass laws that you at least claim, believe will exterminate that group, yeah, that group's going to kind of think that you don't like them. Now, maybe, and in the case of the Homestead Act, this is the case, your plan doesn't work because no one wants to move to Utah, even when you're giving free land away. Imagine how bad it was in Wyoming. I mean, but that is the reality of the Republican Party. Both John C. Fremont, who runs for president in 1856, as an abolitionist, you know, as someone opposed to the expansion of slavery, he runs on the platform of the abolition in the territories of slavery and polygamy.
Gerrit And so does Abraham Lincoln. That is his party platform. And so when those men are elected, well, when Abraham Lincoln's elected, there's a reason why Latter-day Saints in Utah don't begin celebrating Lincoln's election. He's the head of a party that's vowing to destroy them. And then Lincoln begins signing into law bills like the Homestead Act and the Anti-Polygamy Act that the authors of them say, this will destroy Mormonism. So that's not a way to win friends and influence people. You know, I mean, if you want someone to be on your side, the best thing isn't to say, I want to exterminate you in any way that I can. Would you like to go get a drink? I mean, it's not the best way. So I know I don't have any more time to go on and that you're giving me the side eye. Yes. Yeah.
Gerrit But I think that that's an important, it's an important thing to understand when we study our history that sometimes the very thing that makes someone beloved because they are opposed to slavery in our past is the same thing that makes that exact same person hate your ancestors because they're being motivated by their Christian faith. And on the one side, it's amazing that that Christian faith hates slavery. And on the other side, it's not so great that that Christian faith hates us. Right? You deal with this all the time today. You will run into Christians everywhere who hold many of the same moral and civil values that Latter-day Saints hold. You'll sit down and have a conversation about many different things that are controversial issues that people are on both sides of. But with this Christian, you see eye to eye.
Gerrit And yet, when they find out that you're a Latter-day Saint, are more than willing to tell you what part of hell you're going to go to. Because the reason why they're opposed to abortion, for instance, is because they believe it's a sin in the eyes of God. And the same thing that motivates them to say abortion is a sin in the eyes of God, is literally the same thing that motivates them to say Mormonism is a sin in the eyes of God. And that's why you get this kind of disconnect. That doesn't mean they're bad people. We can't throw everyone out who has a problem with Latter-day Saints, or there would be no one left in the boat, right? And hopefully we can, through our own preaching and through our own lives, help people soften to see us as more as the Christians that we want to be seen as. So thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for being here live as an audience.
Gerrit Yeah, oh, yeah.
Richard You guys did great.
Gerrit Well, we'll never do another live event. Thank you so much for joining us.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.

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So think about how good your mission would be if instead of sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ, you were talking to people about a presidential candidate they didn't like.

GerritBanter

If you say I'm going to sacrament meeting, it is you might as well be trying to tell our Canadian friends Fahrenheit temperatures.

GerritBanter

Latter-day Saints don't dance well.

GerritBanter

It is a game changer that we don't realize is a game changer.

GerritInsight

So why are you in this world that is so terrible? Because you chose to come to a world like this.

GerritInsight

It's literally the opposite. We literally believe everyone's going to heaven. Everyone.

GerritInsight

Don't allow the questions for which we don't have good answers. Don't allow those questions to undermine what it is you actually know.

GerritInsight

I believe that our all-powerful God has the power to somehow make up for the inequities of this life.

GerritInsight

I hit the brisket pretty hard, and I've got a bit of a sweet tooth from all the savory.

RichardBanter

So the Republicans are kind of like the Whigs meet Footloose.

RichardBanter

More from this episode

Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.

Claim check

What critics say, and what the episode found
Latter-day Saints believe everyone who isn't a member is going to hell.
Since the Republicans of the 1850s opposed slavery, they must have been friendly to the Saints.
Jeremiah 1:5 proves the premortal life to other Christians.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.

Take it to class

Ready to copy into a lesson or a text

Knowing we lived with Heavenly Father and chose to come to a world of suffering changes the answer to nearly every hard question about why life is the way it is.

Latter-day Saints don't believe in an endless hell: almost everyone will reach a kingdom of glory, and the Church's real work is exaltation, becoming like God.

Don't let questions without good answers undermine what you actually know; the Lord has promised that every loss and unfairness will be made right.

The same faith that made 19th-century Christians hate slavery made many of them hate the Saints, and that disconnect still shows up today without making those people bad.

Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.

Banter bin

The running jokes, for people who skip ahead
Spouses on the tour against their willGerrit apologizes to tour-goers who came only because their spouse loves the podcast, and keeps checking on them (2:42, 29:50, 42:56).
Johnny HortonAn argument about Johnny Horton songs ate Gerrit's prep time, and the jabs keep coming (3:10, 4:50, 44:17, 53:37).
Quick hits that aren't quickRichard insists these are quick hits; Gerrit offers to end the podcast permanently (4:36, 11:44, 18:23).
Episodes promised, never madePlural marriage gets pushed to Season 30, then 39, then 40 (7:16, callback 45:25).
85 degrees FahrenheitTelling Canadians the temperature, which returns when Gerrit can't say "codified" (13:36, callback 18:21).
Methodists in FootlooseRichard's Nazarene friend's description, which he reuses on the Republicans with less success (20:25, callback 55:58).
Mount Rushmore, unrankedGerrit refuses to say which doctrine is Teddy, Lincoln, Jefferson or the Crazy Horse monument (20:56, 25:53, 28:11, 32:02).
The labor-email policyTaylor is the brother of the listener who emailed the show while in labor (43:02).
Becky's treatsRichard loses focus when Becky sets out Rice Krispie treats, and so do Ty and Austin (52:43, 57:17).
The only true missionStephen Foster is not in the long-standing Pittsburgh Second Ward (1:03:41).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

Your question could be next week’s episode
Questions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
General ConferenceGeneral Conference talks that cite a scripture read in this episode.

In General Conference

Talks from the latest General Conference that cite a scripture this episode reads or names on air
October 2026 General Conference · cites D&C 93I Am a Child of GodElder Hutch U. FaleElder Fale teaches that every person is a beloved child of heavenly parents, illustrating God's unearned love by showing his children their baby pictures: they did nothing to earn their parents' love and can do nothing to lose it.

Summaries, themes and lessons for every talk are on What Did They Say?

Go deeperWhere to read more.

Go deeper

Deep dives the episode points toward
The 1844 electioneering missions, where elders preached the gospel and Joseph's presidential platform at the same meetings (6:12).
Sidney Rigdon's 1844 claim to lead the Church, and how his place on the ticket strengthened it (9:20).
D&C 59 and what Sabbath worship looked like on the Jackson County frontier (16:41).
David Whitmer's and Edward Stevenson's late accounts of the stone box at Cumorah, side by side (38:32).
Stephen Foster's 1860 speech and the 1856 and 1860 Republican platforms on slavery and polygamy (55:03).
SOT Litner · S4E23.