Can Adulterers Go to the Celestial Kingdom?

Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.

Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.

Richard Hello, Gerrit, thanks for having me back. It's great to be here with you. I love the smile that you get on your face when I say that.

Gerrit Yeah, because you're always saying, thanks for having me back, as if I had options.

Richard I feel like you do. I feel like, actually, it's interesting that you say that. We received an email the other day, actually, like two days ago, from somebody that made me wonder why I'm even on the podcast at all. They didn't question it, but the questions that they had for me actually had me question it. But you know we're huge in Canada, obviously.

Gerrit Yeah, I mean, Amy and David alone are just... The Millers. I mean, they've gotta be downloading it seven, eight, 10 times. Actually, I think David didn't even know the podcast existed until he went on the tour. We asked him about it because he's Canadian, he's so polite, he just said that he did know.

Richard Oh, oh, I'm sure it's great.

Gerrit Oh, yeah, yeah. No, he was like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I listen. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Richard I heard... Sorry about Edmonton.

Gerrit Sorry about Edmonton, that was rough.

Richard Well, you almost had it. Yeah, you almost had it.

Gerrit I'm so close.

Richard I heard a comedian once, he was a Canadian comedian, and he's like, you know, Americans think we're so nice. Like if you ask an American what they think about Canadians, they're like, oh, they're lovely, they're so nice, they're great. He says, why don't you ask an American or a Canadian what they think of Americans and see what they have to say? Anyway, it was pretty funny. Anyway, so our podcast, it spans the world, from windy in Australia, back around to windy in Australia.

Gerrit There was that brief time that we had people traveling in China that were downloading it. I mean, that was...

Richard It's all over the place.

Gerrit We're still ranking in Uzbekistan. We're like 215th in Uzbekistan.

Richard We're the 215th highest LDS podcast in Uzbekistan.

Gerrit No, no, no, no, no, religious podcast generally, which is... I can only assume that that's the only legal one. And then there's ours.

Richard It's like sneaking a Bible into Communist China.

Gerrit Yeah, something like that. That's what we are. We are Radio Free America at this point.

Richard Well, so this, we're going to start off with a little international flavor. And we're going to start with our friends, the North. So we received an email from Jonathan and Jonathan, the message is, I listen to your podcast because I find the history of your church fascinating.

Gerrit Of your church.

Richard Of your church.

Gerrit Yeah, that sounds like Jonathan's either not a member or isn't proud that he's a member.

Richard So he said, I'm sure I made a joke about, you know, make lots of jokes, few of them are funny, but he says, so it starts regarding the lack of faith of your non-LDS LeDucs. I think your aunt said, When did we say that? I'm sure I've made several dig comments at my LeDuc roots.

Gerrit I don't recall us saying that they were, you know, heretics, but we did talk about how they might be, they could have been Protestant Huguenots.

Richard I'm sure I said something like godless animals or something like that. I don't know. But I think what I meant is that they just weren't LDS, of my faith versus having no faith. But Jonathan took this exception and he says, I think your ancestor who once had one acre in Montreal is Jean LeDuc.

Gerrit Yes.

Richard Which is true. Which is correct. He lived from 1624 to 1702. He came over from France and settled there and married a woman named Marie. Well, so they had a daughter. Her name was Anne. And she was a nun and a superior of an order that was in charge of the hospital in Montreal. And she was a very important religious figure in France. And so he says, so 360 years ago, the LeDucs were very Catholic. And then he gave her biography. And yeah, it was very, very interesting. So I read through the biography. It was very interesting. She was a great woman. It's actually a little bit of Monty Python and the Search for the Holy Grail, because the hospital burnt down three times. So and then it sunk into the swamp.

Gerrit And then she just kept rebuilding it. They said, we just have to rebuild this hospital, but I built it all the same.

Richard So the problem, though, is that Jean LeDuc had two wives.

Gerrit So he was an early polygamous.

Richard He was an early polygamous.

Gerrit You know what? You come from good stock.

Richard Yeah, I joke all the time to my wife, because both sides of her family, I jokingly say they joined the church before Joseph did, the way that you hear them tell it. So before Moroni appears to Joseph, they're already members of the church.

Gerrit When Joseph gets down to the water to baptize Oliver, they're already in the water. Like, what took you so long?

Richard Look, my mom's a Jewish convert, but your family, they joined in 1804, right? Anyway, so the issue, though, is that Jean's first wife actually passes away. And so he marries, so his first wife, he has two children with his first wife. Antoine is one of the children, and my LeDuc line comes through Antoine through his first wife.

Gerrit Through the first wife, okay.

Richard Yeah, so Marie is the second wife, and so my great-great-great-grandfather's half-sister is Anne, who was the superior that ran the order.

Gerrit So is this a relative that contacted you then?

Richard I don't know, actually.

Gerrit How would he know this family history if he didn't? He's just randomly looking up LeDuc names in Montreal.

Richard So here's the thing, while you're making fun of the one-acre Jeanne got, obviously it was a big deal because he was able to find them, and then was able to connect them to the Catholic lineage, whatever.

Gerrit So let me get this straight. Jonathan is a Catholic, Quebecois, French, Canadian, not Latter-day Saint.

Richard Correct.

Gerrit That is somehow listening to our podcast.

Richard Correct.

Gerrit Why? I mean, really, all of our listeners could ask the question, especially at this point, why? Why am I listening? But for him, especially, why? And by the way, is there any way to prevent him from listening to what we had to say about the sale of indulgences?

Richard Well, so in that, though, you were caping up for the Catholics, as I was saying. I was kind of poking a little bit, and you're saying, that's not how it is, that's not what a Catholic would say. You were very fair, as I was very unfair. Good. So I asked that question. First of all, I said, thank you for sending this to me. This is amazing. I didn't have any of this information. This is great. Also, how in the world did you come across this? Like he said, he loves the history. Because there's lots of PhD historians that aren't LDS. In fact, the majority of them aren't, right?

Gerrit Yeah, that aren't LDS.

Richard What I mean is, what I should have said is, there are PhD historians that study Mormon history that aren't LDS.

Gerrit Yeah, I mean, maybe not most, because it is kind of weird. We are a little bit of a niche group. But there are dozens and dozens and dozens.

Richard Right. So they also find it interesting, and they study it. So for some reason, it's the same way. So I asked him, how in the world did you come across it? So he says, I was listening to the Saints podcast, and Spotify algorithm suggested your podcast.

Gerrit Why is he listening to the Saints podcast?

Richard Because he's fascinated with the history of our church. He thinks it's interesting. I mean, I study the history of the Catholic Church, because I think it's interesting, right?

Gerrit That's true. I don't listen to Catholic podcasts generally.

Richard There is a Catholic podcast I listen to. It's pretty good. To Fathers, they crack wise. They're pretty funny. And it's a little long. But they do good work.

Gerrit Just like this. Yeah.

Richard That's better. But yeah.

Gerrit Well, you said other podcasts, so I assumed it was better. Not everyone's Rachel's mom.

Richard So I asked him, I again thanked him, and I asked him if he'd be interested in access to our premium content on our American History podcast.

Gerrit What every French Canadian wants is American history.

Richard So he said, I love listening to podcasts about history and would love listening to your American History podcast. And he said, I'm pleasantly surprised that you liked my comment. After sending it, I thought that it was just unnecessary because you were only making a joke, and I don't need to tell anything about genealogy to a Mormon.

Gerrit Oh, man. That's hilarious. Jonathan's funny.

Richard He's a funny guy. So I sent him access to the Condemned to Repeat It stuff. So now there's two ways to get free content. Be a missionary, we'll send it to you for free, and the other is to be a French-Canadian Catholic. We're going to send it to you every time.

Gerrit If you're a French-Canadian Catholic that can demonstrate that you're listening to this podcast, you know what? Now, none of you better repudiate your religion just to get... We have this huge increase in people in Montreal sending resignation letters to their bishop. Why? Nothing wrong with the doctrine, but I need some free premium content.

Richard Well, so Becky, my wife said, why don't you send him Joseph Smith in the Restoration? I'm like...

Gerrit We're easing into that. Yeah, yeah.

Richard I said, yeah, we'll get there. But anyway, I thought this whole back and forth, I was like, what in the world is happening?

Gerrit It's great to know that we have a French-Canadian, non-Latter-day Saint Catholic listener. And speaking of French speakers that you have recently interacted with, tell us a little bit about our tour.

Richard Yeah, this is a French-heavy opening to the podcast.

Gerrit It's hard to believe with a name like Ladis.

Richard Your pro-French agenda has been clear for some time. Well, so when you go on a tour and you've got a big group, you often have to break up into groups of two or three, depending on the size of the group, to go through. And when we were at Carthage Jail, we had to break up into two different groups. Well, so there was a gentleman from France named Olivier, and he didn't have an appointment. He was from Paris or outside of Paris. By the way, I think they consider everything in France that's not in Paris just outside of Paris.

Gerrit Yeah, well, because when you're talking to someone else, you're like, where do you live? I'm like 200 miles away from Paris.

Richard Well, look, I do the same thing. It's like, where are you from? I used to say Los Angeles, because people would know. Yellowstone Park. Now I say Las Vegas. People know Las Vegas. It's like a six-hour drive, but yeah, that's where I live. Anyway, so he didn't have an appointment, and there was a busload. And then after us, there was multiple youth busloads. So him getting in the Carthage Jail on a tour was going to be tough because it was just back, back, back, back. And so I asked him if he had an appointment. He said he didn't. He was in Chicago on business and drove to Nauvoo, which is a bit of a haul. And he's like, I don't have an appointment, so I'll just wait. And I said, no, no, no, you're in our group. You're in our group. And everybody in our group treated him like he was family. He doesn't know any of these people, and everyone's treating him like they've known him forever and love him. And it was pretty cool. I think you mentioned in a previous episode when you talked about Zion, and you get elements of that feeling.

Richard You can understand why people would pack up and move for that, because it's a special thing. So he sends me a note, and he says, Dear Brother Richard, I'm back in my land, France, since Sunday. All went well. I enjoyed my time in the United States and in Nauvoo and Carthage. I hope you were also back safe. Thank you for the podcast, shared about the martyrdom. I sent him links to the Apple, to the free episodes about the martyrdom so he could have additional content that he listened to about that. So he thanked us for that. I'm always interested to know more about church history. Thank you for your attention and kindness. I really felt the sense of being part of a community of saints, like the Apostle taught. No matter where you come from, we're all part of that community. I wish you a wonderful day. I keep in touch, Olivier. And it was one of those things that was really cool, right? So we don't know this guy. He's a total stranger. And we're like, no, no, no, you're in our group.

Richard It's great. You're here, whatever. Everyone's lovely. It just feels like it's almost like a family. He's grateful that I sent him the episode, but the main thing that he wanted to say thank you for was the feeling of community that we had just by all being together. I just thought it was a beautiful sentiment.

Gerrit That's beautiful. That is. And, you know, honestly, it's what the gospel really should do. You should, if we're all, if we're at least trying to live the gospel, then there should be this sense of community among people as fellow believers in Christ. And we welcome with open arms other people, even though we don't know them. And we, you know, we help, we try to help them feel welcome as we're all trying to get to the same kingdom. Right. I mean, so I see why the idea of Zion was so powerful to early members of the church. And when you are with a group, I mean, whether you're at like a youth conference or you're at a, you know, some kind of training meeting or you're in a powerful state conference meeting or something like that, there is something about the collective shared spiritual experience of righteous men and women that is, is, is hard to describe that, that, that feeling.

Richard I will say, I mean, I've done a decent, I mean, not a lot, but a decent amount of international travel for work and things. And I felt that at a state conference in Italy, and I felt that in a, in a, in a branch in France, and I felt that in a ward in Spain. And I felt that in a, you know, in a Spanish ward in Nashville.

Gerrit I noticed you haven't mentioned your own ward yet. It's interesting.

Richard I felt it in my own ward as well.

Gerrit You said that for Brady though.

Richard I know, I know the people here and I'm expected, well actually the fact that they know me, I'm actually all more surprised that they're nice to me because they know me. They're like, okay. But no, it's an incredible feeling. And it also speaks a lot to the Litners of the podcast to where that's, we talk about all the time, that's one of the greatest things. Like you leave the podcast or leave the tour and hopefully you feel like, man, I just have a whole group of people that I love. I think it helped that in our group, Jeff and Clay weren't in our group. I think that helped.

Gerrit Right. Yeah. And they know why. They know what they've done. Well, let's get into some, aside from Zion, we have a couple of good topics today.

Richard Yes. Let's start with adultery, Gerrit.

Gerrit Yes. Not committing it, but talking about it.

Richard This email comes to us from Bill. He's like, hey, is it really that bad?

Gerrit We actually have had several people named Bill that have emailed us over the course of years because we're just throwing out a random name like Bill when we say if someone's committing adultery, like Bill. And we've had several people name Bill, email us to say that they aren't Bill the Adulterer. But you know what? I kind of suspect that that's exactly what Bill the Adulterer would say.

Richard Me think thou doth protest too much. I didn't say it. You're the one coming in here super defensive.

Gerrit Let's get your wife on the other line.

Richard Or your mistress. So the subject is, if a man commit adultery, he cannot receive the Celestial Kingdom of God. Even if he is saved in any kingdom, he cannot be the Celestial Kingdom. And then he says, good afternoon. If you have already touched on this subject on the podcast, would you let me know which episode to look for? I'd love to hear your thoughts about this quote. Though I don't know where to find the exact reference. And then so he gives that quote. I'll read it again. This is from Joseph Smith. Quote, if a man committed adultery, he cannot receive the Celestial Kingdom of God. Even if he is saved in any kingdom, it cannot be the Celestial Kingdom. There are loved individuals in my life that have committed adultery. And are we to understand that anyone who has committed adultery will never receive Celestial glory? Thank you for your podcast and all you do. Now, before you get into this, so this comes from Brad, who's obviously related to Bill. So when-

Gerrit He's asking for a friend.

Richard So we talked about this several days ago that we wanted to talk about this. And you read that quote to me, and I said, that can't be true. Like, it's a quote from Joseph Smith. I'm like, it can't be. Like, it legitimately can't be. I don't believe it. Unless I feel with my own hand and see with my eyes.

Gerrit He was going to thrust his hand into the side.

Richard My initial reaction was, he didn't say that. That's not true. It can't be. And so, anyway, yeah.

Gerrit Well, and so, I mean, so that does beg the question then of where does it come from? So if you go to the History of the Church, it is in November 25th, 1843, there is a, this is how it reads. There's several things, right? In the evening, the High Council sat on the case of Harrison Sager's charge with seduction and having stated that I taught that it was right. Now, it goes on to say the charge was not sustained. I was present with several of the 12. After adjournment, held a council and agreed to meet Mr. Frierson, this is someone who's visiting, and gave an address tending to do away with every evil and exhorting them, I'm reading, by the way, from the draft of the history, not from the college history. So that's, if you're wondering, like, well, it seems like it's a little choppy, yeah, because it's the draft.

Gerrit To do away with every evil and exhorting them to practice virtue and holiness before the Lord. Told them that the church had not received any permission from me to commit fornication, adultery or any corrupt action. But my, but my every word and action has been to the contrary. If a man committed adultery, he cannot receive the Celestial Kingdom of God. Even if he is saved in any kingdom, it cannot be the Celestial Kingdom. So that's, that's where this quote comes from.

Richard So it's a quote. It exists.

Gerrit Right. So now let's figure out where it comes from. So the first thing, so important to understand, we've talked about this before. Where does the history of the church come from? Yeah. You know, Willard Richards is the primary person putting this history together. And of course, he's going to have other people help him. But he is, we owe Willard Richards for having the history that we have. And he, without having training in history, is an outstanding historian for being an amateur. He is going to piece together all of what they're writing, you know, they call, you know, the history of Joseph Smith, which will eventually be published as history of the church. And he's piecing this together using sources. So just about everything that you can find in the history of the church has some underlying source that's there.

Gerrit Now, sometimes there's an expansion, you know, you have a source and then, you know, as they're reading through it, you know, Joseph will expand upon it before it ends up getting published. So for some of the early stuff, you don't have an underlying source, but you have Joseph Smith essentially dictating what it should be. And this is kind of where it is with the account of the First Vision, right? I mean, there's, you don't have a source for that, but you have Joseph Smith explaining what it is. But this is later in the history, right? So this is 1843. And of course, they aren't caught up to date, so they're doing this much later. So what's the source for it? So the first place you want to go when you're trying to figure out a source for something that's in the history of the church from Joseph Smith's time is you want to go to Joseph's Journal. Now, Joseph's Journal is often kept by Willard Richards, so sometimes you're getting it.

Gerrit If it's kept by Willard Richards especially, well, then it's pretty easy to know that Willard Richards is going to be able to get that into the history. So especially the time period where Willard Richards is keeping, well, I just said, Willard Richards. What happened there?

Richard Well, so that's the way that he would say it because he always had a mouthful of food.

Gerrit Well, either that or he had a mouthful of bullets that he was trying to put into the guns that he had.

Richard He'd run out of pockets and he's just got all those steel balls.

Gerrit Honestly, I think we'll eventually find out if this crack research keeps going with that terrible fake documentary, that what we'll find is that Willard Richards himself wasn't a big guy at all, that he was just wearing lots and lots and lots of jackets because under each jacket, he had multiple pistols.

Richard The thing that's frustrating with the part two of that quote unquote film is that since he was excommunicated or kicked out of the church or left or I don't remember what we call it anymore. We parted ways.

Gerrit Tip of the cap.

Richard Well, tip of the cap and I'm on my way because we used to call things disciplinary councils or whatever it is, Bishop's Court or whatever. We changed the names. I can't remember what it is. Anyway, ever since he no longer has his records with the church, he made instead of making the second film about how Brigham Young ordered the code red, he made it about himself and his excommunication, so we need a part three to get to what you're talking about.

Gerrit I'm sure there's one in the works.

Richard I can't wait.

Gerrit Well, so Willard Richards is going to generally draw from Joseph's journal. So that's the first place you should look if it's Joseph Smith's life. He'll also draw from the letters that Joseph Smith receives, and they'll also draw from the times and seasons. So we go to Joseph Smith's journal, November 25th, 1843. We do get some of the things that are in the history. Mr. John Frierson, United States Surveyor from Quincy, arrived in Nauvoo. Okay, so Frierson was mentioned in that. In the evening, the High Council sat on the case of Harrison Sager for seduction. No action. But the president was present and the Twelve. After this council, the president and the Twelve held a consultation and agreed to meet Mr. Frierson at the Nauvoo mansion the next morning. Okay, that's it. That's all that's in the journal. So that quote isn't in the journal.

Gerrit So now you got to figure out where is it coming from. So there are multiple places that these sources can come from. And so if it's not there, then it's either something that is an expansion that's added later, or it's from a different account. Some of the other accounts that Willard Richards is going to draw from are people like Wilfrid Woodruff's Journal. So let's go to Wilfrid Woodruff's Journal. And here we have November 25th, 1843, Wilfrid Woodruff's Journal. And it's funny because it's going to start with, you know, this is his perspective of things, right? Because he starts off with, we set three window frames in the back story second, and bait up about three feet of brick. I was called in the evening to a council with the Twelve. When I arrived at Joseph Smith's store, I found the high council sitting on the case of Harrison Sagers.

Gerrit For some improper conduct or offer towards some female, at the close, President Joseph Smith made an address upon the subject, which was highly interesting. Its tendency was to do away with every evil, and practice virtue and holiness before the Lord. So this is Wilford Woodruff saying Joseph gave this address, and then repeating this back. That the church had not received any license from him to commit adultery, fornication, or any such thing, but to the contrary. If any men commit adultery, he could not receive the Celestial Kingdom of God. Even if he was saved in any kingdom, it could not be in the Celestial Kingdom. So there's where the origination of the quote comes from, in Wilford Woodruff's journal, and then his journal was used as a source to copy in the material for History of Joseph Smith, which later becomes the History of the Church.

Gerrit So there's the origination of it. Now, of course, the question isn't really about, I mean, he did ask, where does that come from? So I'm demonstrating where it came from. But I can only imagine that Bill is anxiously listening, wondering if we'll get to the point, and Bill, you should know by now, we're not going to, but can he still be saved in the Celestial Kingdom even, you know, or is this like something like, once you've committed adultery, you can never go to the Celestial Kingdom ever again? Well, part of this quote, I deliberately didn't read yet, because the quote goes on, and he didn't include this as part of his question. And so I'm now going to continue reading what's both in the history and in Wilfred Woodruff's journal. You got a little bit of this context when it says, the Harrison Sagers for improper conduct, and Smith made an address upon the subject, right?

Gerrit Notice that in both places he says that the church had not received any license from him to commit fornication or adultery. If we go back to the history of the church, we find the way it's written, this is again the manuscript copy of this, that told them that the church had not received any permission from me to commit fornication, adultery or any corrupt action. But my every word and action has been to the contrary. So what does this sound like is surrounding the Harrison Sagers case? Yeah, Richard's gonna, he's waiting.

Richard Here's the thing. I am wrong so often that I've become gun shy. I thought that 74.9 centimeters was the height of a man. I thought that, in my mind, in fairness, again, I thought that was inches, and that'd be about 6'3. But it's not, and that's a very, very short man. Tommy Toon, what's the name of the guy? Johnny Horton. Tommy Toon. So he either sang Bismarck or...

Gerrit Don't forget my number.

Richard 867-5309.

Gerrit 865309.

Richard I'm wrong so often, and I'm so terribly wrong, that I've become now afraid to answer basic questions.

Gerrit And that means I'm doing a bad job, because you should feel free to express whatever first comes to your mind.

Richard Yeah, we have a very tyrannical culture here at the Standard of Truth Podcast.

Gerrit Well, let me make this promise to you. You keep bringing French Canadians that aren't Latter-day Saints into this podcast, and we're going to keep you around. We see that as our major growth area. If we could get non-Latter-day Saints to listen, well, then the zero dollars we make from the free podcast could be times by an infinite amount of others.

Richard I also did give them access to the premium content for free as well, so there's that.

Gerrit Right, so it's an even better business plan.

Richard That's exactly right.

Gerrit So the quote goes on in Wilford Woods' journal, I'll read it from there, where he says that he said he thought that many examples had been manifest. John C. Bennett and others was sufficient to show the fallacy of such a course of conduct. So he references the great adulterer. He was against this principle in Toto.

Richard Hold on, hold on. So this is important, right? So John C. Bennett is the great adulterer, but Philastus Hurlbut is the fornicating fornicator.

Gerrit Is that correct? Yeah, I mean, yes. I don't want to draw my distinctions between fornication and adultery. It's stark. Right, so it's like Peter the Great, Catherine the Great, John C.

Richard Bennett the great adulterer.

Gerrit That's the last part. Considering Catherine the Great, maybe adulterers should be thrown there on the end as well. So we're going to get a lot of emails from Russia now. There's going to be a lot. I mean, all of our listenership in Russia. It's going to take a hit. Yeah, I mean, that Uzbekistan number is about to come down just because of their association with Russia. So he clearly at least part of what the accusation was, was that Joseph Smith had said that some people could commit adultery, which is exactly what John C. Bennett had been teaching people in the early months of 1842. John C. Bennett's entire spiritual wifery program was based upon the, I make it sound like it's like P90X.

Gerrit It's, you know, look, if you just do it the way I'm telling you to do it, you're going to have shredded abs, you're going to have just some amazing calves, and also be an adulterer. I don't know if that was his pitch. I'm pretty sure all you have to do to get someone to follow you is to pitch, hey, adultery is fine. And people are falling all over themselves to rush after you as their new prophet. And so Joseph makes a reference to this that, that it sounds as if somewhere in this accusation, someone had said, well, Harrison Sagers had said that Joseph said that it was okay. And Joseph, because that is some shades of, that's some shades of John C. Bennett-ism, Joseph is reacting pretty strongly to that.

Gerrit And so, you know, the implication of course, because John C. Bennett is not someone who ever repented for adultery, is that he's talking about people like John C. Bennett. Yes, the words say that if anyone commits adultery, they can't be saved in the Celestial Kingdom. But of course, we have so many examples of the opposite of that. In fact, you know, we don't even have to go through a ton. We can go back to Doctrine and Covenants, Section 42. Doctrine and Covenants, Section 42 is the law of the church. It's received at the very early days of the church, after the church moves to Ohio, they're promised, if they leave and move to Ohio, that their God will give them his law. And so Doctrine and Covenants, Section 42 actually has this name, the law of the church. That's what it's called, the law. In fact, if you're reading the Doctrine and Covenants and you ever see something say, this is according to the law of the church, that's a reference to Doctrine and Covenants, Section 42.

Gerrit Section 20, which, spoiler alert, we'll talk about for our second topic here in a minute, it was the organizational and faith statement of the church. It was what does the church believe and how is the church going to operate. Section 42 was much more about how are the members going to live. And in that list of how a member is going to live, what constitutes being a member? Like, can I be a member and also a thief? So starting with verse 18 of Doctrine and Coven, section 42, it says, And now, behold, I speak unto the church, thou shalt not kill, and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come. And again, I say, thou shalt not kill, but he that killeth shall die. Thou shalt not steal, and he that stealeth, and will not repent, shall be cast out.

Gerrit Thou shalt not lie, and he that lieth, and will not repent, shall be cast out. Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shall cleave unto her and none else. And he that looketh upon a woman to lust after her, shall deny the faith, and shall not have the spirit. And if he repents not, he shall be cast out. Now, verse 23 has always been powerful to me, because verse 23 isn't even talking about someone who's committed adultery. Verse 23 is, he that looketh upon a woman to lust after her, shall deny the faith, and shall not have the spirit. And if he repents not, he shall be cast out. So this even attempt to commit adultery, this idea of wanting to commit adultery would be enough to be cast out.

Gerrit At least in the case of Sager's case, it was an accusation that he'd made an improper offer to a woman. So he actually hadn't even committed adultery. Then verse 24, Thou shalt not commit adultery, and he that committeth adultery and repenteth not, shall be cast out. But he that has committed adultery and repents with all his heart, and forsaketh it and doeth it no more, thou shalt forgive. So you actually have in scripture that someone who's committed adultery can absolutely be forgiven. Now, the process of that repentance is going to depend on the severity of things. But we certainly have cases in Joseph's own life where people, important people, high standing people, people who should have known better, committed adultery, and then repent and have their full fellowship.

Gerrit I could give lots of examples, although that sounds kind of bad. I could give you lots of examples of people who committed adultery in the early. I'll just use one. One of the ones we've actually already talked about on this podcast. We didn't talk about his adultery. We talked primarily about his, hey, let's move to Palestine and live in Palestine movement that he started. This is George Adams. George Adams apparently, when he was in England, had a marital indiscretion. Now, then as now, people committed adultery quite readily. I believe I saw a statistic, you know, don't quote me on this, but I believe I saw a statistic once that said that 70% of people that get a divorce, one of the partners will have been unfaithful in that marriage.

Gerrit I assume that that, I don't know at what point they're headed towards divorce, but I guess that's a pretty stark number. But George Adams had apparently had an affair with a woman. And while, you know, hey, that happened in England, how is anyone going to find out? Well, it just so happened that that woman got pregnant. And then that woman moved to Nauvoo. So she shows up with George Adams' child. Problem with this is that George Adams is married and was married at the time. So, okay, well, apparently he intended to tell Joseph about this, but didn't. And so we actually have a letter in the Joseph Smith Papers from George Adams and David Rogers as the guys with October of 1842 writing to Joseph Smith to tell him about some of these things that are going on.

Gerrit Now, October of 1842, sexual indiscretion is not being tolerated a whole lot because this is when all of the fallout from the John C. Bennett fornications and his claims are all hitting the papers and they're everywhere. In fact, George Adams is one of the great defenders of Joseph Smith. He's considered a fiery, fiery preacher, and he's actually reported on in multiple of the newspapers in the East while he's out there on his mission. But George Adams is going to explain to him that there are some problems. In the second page of the letter, he references all of John C. Bennett's plans and purposes are going to come to naught. And then he says, There is one thing I wish to speak about. The affair that the Lord revealed unto you, concerning me and another.

Gerrit Had I done as the Spirit directed me, I would have confessed everything to you before I left. But Brother Rogers over persuaded me not to tell you until my return. So apparently he's confided in this Brother Rogers, and Brother Rogers has told him, well, when we get back, you tell him about it. I covenant with God to tell you immediately after the sin was committed. I came to Nauvoo this summer, almost on purpose to lay the whole transaction before you and to take your counsel, and will do so at the first opportunity. But my dear brother, don't think for one moment that I was ever an adulterer at heart. No, God knows I never was, nor don't you think that we continued to sin. So I think he's trying to argue that this wasn't a long-term affair, though the fruits of their dalliance were inescapable once a child obviously came out of it.

Gerrit Let me go back to the letter. No, we did not, but we bowed before the Lord and sought his pardon and determined to sin no more. I was also under the influence of many different passions at the time.

Richard I'm bad.

Gerrit Yeah.

Richard You don't say.

Gerrit Yeah.

Richard You don't say.

Gerrit Of the things you don't need to tell Joseph, George Adams, it's probably that. It's probably that. So let me get this straight. So you're saying that you were under the throes of passion when you committed adultery. Yes. Then as now, not really a great excuse as, you know, that as I'm sure Bill can tell you, when you go tell your wife, you committed adultery. The fact that because you were in the throes of passion is not. It's probably not going to help a lot in her estimation. I will tell you all when I see you, but however, through the mercy of the Lord, everything has turned out a hundred times better than I expected. I know you must have prayed for me and everything is now so arranged so that no shade of testimony can be brought against me. Only you and Brother Rogers. Remember, I take your counsel in all things. And then he adds this postscript.

Gerrit Oh, Brother Joseph, don't forsake me, for God knows I will never you nor his church. Now, Brother Joseph, you know that I am honest hearted, and I would write a hundred things if I had time. Oh, give me your forgiveness and the confidence and confidence, and I will go ahead in the name of the Lord. Sister Lyon says that Brother David is quite sick, and he goes on to say, you know, these various things. But there is, you know, begging for, for Joseph's forgiveness for this. Now, this is going to reappear. In fact, George Adams' wife is going to write Joseph Smith a letter, and we don't have all of the letter, but in it, she essentially asks, can you use your prophetic powers of discernment to determine whether or not my husband did commit this adultery?

Gerrit Now, that's going to put you in a tough place. I don't know how many bishops we have listening that have had that request, but the reality is that this is, this is put them in a tough place. At any rate, eventually, Adams is going to come back and he's going to make his full confession. And it's in the minutes of a meeting of May 27th, 1843, where this is going to be fully adjudicated, so to speak, where we get the end of this sinning of adultery. It's because they're having a conversation that there are people making accusation against leaders of the church for various things. Claiming, in one case, that Joseph Smith was having an improper relationship. For instance, this is what one person said that Brother Winchester, who's the person who they're talking about, to be revenged, he told one of the most damnable lies about me, that I visited Sister Dibble in her small hat shop and told her to come to Nauvoo with me, and I would protect her.

Gerrit And Brother Winchester set up a howl that I was guilty of improper conduct. So he's claiming that Joseph Smith is claiming that there was this improper relationship there. So they're talking about, obviously, improper relationships. And as this goes on, George Adams is one of the people who's giving testimony. And so there's probably a feeling in the room, hey, Brother Adams, of the things you probably aren't very good at giving testimony over is who has and who hasn't committed adultery, because how's that child doing kind of thing? And Joseph says, so this is from the minutes of the meeting, President Joseph said to the 12th, the Elder Adams has come to me and made acknowledgement and perfect satisfaction. His license as an Elder will be taken from him.

Gerrit So there is a punishment for for this. Now, of course, this this adultery had happened multiple years ago at this point. His license as an Elder will be taken from him and he will act as a priest. And Brother Adams has now started anew. Let all present hold their tongues and only say that Elder Adams has started anew. And so you kind of get the idea of what Joseph thinks about whether or not someone can be forgiven for adultery. And in this case, it's it's a pretty big deal. Elder Adams was a representative of the church. Elder Adams, through his adultery, got a woman pregnant, and her pregnancy drew all kinds of negative statements about the church because of his sin. So there's certainly effects of George Adams' sin.

Gerrit And certainly he had to go through quite the repentance process. And even more than a year later, he still doesn't have his elder's license restored to him only just being a priest because of it. And yet at the same time, clearly he has started anew. We of course believe, and it's certainly taught in the New Testament, right? The Lord teaches it, that the woman who's taken an adultery in the very act, that she goes her way and sins no more. While that quote makes it into the history, it makes it into the history because John C. Bennett is the topic of conversation. And John C. Bennett is not repenting for his adultery. He is creating justifications for his adultery, and worse, he's creating justifications for other people for their adultery. That people were claiming that things were fine because Joseph said they were fine.

Gerrit But they weren't fine. And so the implication of the words is that if you don't repent of having committed adultery, you can't go to the Celestial Kingdom. Rather than taking it as a statement that anyone who's ever committed adultery can't go to the Celestial Kingdom. We believe that however difficult that repentance process might be, that the Celestial Kingdom is open to those and that Christ's Atonement is so incredible that even in a grievous, difficult sexual sin, Christ's Atonement can wash that away as well and you can be a fit candidate for the Celestial King. So thank you so much for that question. And you know, I think the really important thing is that we are guided by, you know, what it is that the prophets and apostles are saying, you know, collectively, Joseph Smith himself is teaching repeatedly that people can be forgiven, that people can come back.

Gerrit And we use that George Adams example to show a very stark case of someone in a pretty high position of power who through repentance was able to come back. Now, the sad part about that story is, of course, then George Adams eventually apostatizes again anyway. So maybe he wasn't the best example to use. I mean, frankly, if you're trying to find someone who hasn't ever apostatized in early church history, it's a little bit harder than you think it would be. But I think it is important to stress with what we've talked about because we're kind of out of time here. And we'll get to our discussion next week about baptism and maybe a little bit more on this topic. But it's important to stress that through the atonement of Jesus Christ, through what we know through prophetic utterance, both from the Prophet Joseph Smith and through other prophets down through the line, as well as through the scriptures, we know that those who have committed the terrible sin of adultery, that they can repent, that they can still be heirs of all the blessings of God.

Gerrit I am grateful for the atonement of Jesus Christ because nobody is perfect. The reality is we actually had this discussion in my elders quorum this last week. And talking about how we cannot judge others and how do we keep ourselves from thinking that we're better than other people who are struggling in sin. And whenever I think about the thought that comes to my mind is King Benjamin, where he says to the people, you know, are we not all beggars? The reality is when it comes to the grace of Jesus Christ, whether we've committed adultery or whether we've just, as Doctrine and Covenants Section 42 said, committed it in our heart because of impure thoughts or ideas we had, all of us, all of us have to have the grace of Jesus Christ in order to go to the Celestial Kingdom.

Gerrit We are often accused of believing we work our way to heaven when the reality is after all that we can do, we are still saved by grace. The grace of God applied to us as we apply it to ourselves through how we strive to live our life and through the ordinances and covenants that we make and keep. So if you're someone out there listening and you're thinking, well, I've committed this sexual sin, and so therefore God doesn't love me. Therefore, I can never be what my brother or sister is who didn't commit that sin. First of all, there is a lot of sinning that's going on. Don't try to guess where your level of sin is compared to someone else because most of it's done in secret. But second of all, let's take God at His word. Let us reason together that your sins be read as scarlet, they shall be as white as wool.

Gerrit I mean, that is one of the great promises of the Savior Jesus Christ. We can all be forgiven, we can all repent. So tune in again next week.

Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth Podcast, hosted by historian, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.

Can Adulterers Go to the Celestial Kingdom?

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Transcript

Quote board

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Olivier (tour-goer from France), note to Richard

History of the Church (manuscript draft), November 25, 1843

Joseph Smith's journal, November 25, 1843

Wilford Woodruff's journal, November 25, 1843

Wilford Woodruff's journal, November 25, 1843 (continued)

D&C 42:18-23

D&C 42:24-25

George J. Adams and David Rogers to Joseph Smith, October 1842 (Joseph Smith Papers)

George Adams's wife to Joseph Smith (only part survives)

Minutes of a meeting, May 27, 1843

John 8 (the woman taken in adultery; identified, not cited on air)

Mosiah 4:19 (King Benjamin; identified, not cited on air)

Isaiah 1:18

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How did Jonathan, a French-Canadian Catholic, find the podcast?

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From 1624 to 1843

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Claim check

Take it to class

Banter bin

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

Go deeper

Can Adulterers Go to the Celestial Kingdom?

Huge in Canada

Olivier (tour-goer from France), note to Richard

History of the Church (manuscript draft), November 25, 1843

Joseph Smith's journal, November 25, 1843

Wilford Woodruff's journal, November 25, 1843

Wilford Woodruff's journal, November 25, 1843 (continued)

D&C 42:18-23

D&C 42:24-25

George J. Adams and David Rogers to Joseph Smith, October 1842 (Joseph Smith Papers)

George Adams's wife to Joseph Smith (only part survives)

Minutes of a meeting, May 27, 1843

John 8 (the woman taken in adultery; identified, not cited on air)

Mosiah 4:19 (King Benjamin; identified, not cited on air)

Isaiah 1:18

How did Jonathan, a French-Canadian Catholic, find the podcast?

From 1624 to 1843

Percentages said on air

Putting numbers to words

What this episode talks about more than usual

Names said most

Signature words