Joseph's Experiences Attending Other Churches

Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.

Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend who keeps, you know, thanking me for having him back, even though we are in our fourth season. And in fact, there's never been any attempt to replace him, and we don't have any, you know, there's no open postings for the position, although there are lots of you who do email saying, I would like to take Richard's job. So maybe he's feeling a little bit insecure, but my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.

Richard Hello, Gerrit. Thanks for having me back. It's really great to be back. We have a couple of emails, and we'll see how this goes. We've done ever so slight amount of prep. I'm hoping this episode goes one way, and we shall see the way it goes.

Gerrit I'm hoping it doesn't ever air.

Richard The subject from Betty, the historical relatives of shame. First, I just wanted to thank you both for your wonderful podcast. I just discovered your podcast after Gerrit's last appearance on Follow Him. I subscribed right off and binge listened until I caught up on all episodes. That's actually incredible.

Gerrit Wow, yeah, boy.

Richard This is my favorite, and I would say most useful podcast that I listen to. Also, I grew up in Southern Idaho in the Paris Montpelier area, which is lovely.

Gerrit Beautiful.

Richard They do a great Fourth of July pancake breakfast in Paris, I will tell you. Also, the tabernacle is lovely. They are gonna charge you about 30 bucks a plate, though. It's their fundraising for the entire year for every local.

Gerrit In Paris, Idaho, they're like, look, there's people. It's gotta get their money while they're here.

Richard I grew up in the unincorporated village of Liberty. That's fantastic. I love the down-to-earth approach you take with the podcast. I do find myself laughing out loud frequently. It is informative and delightful.

Gerrit Oh, very kind.

Richard That's very good. All right, now let's get to the-

Gerrit Oh, very kind.

Richard That's very good. All right, now let's get to the-

Gerrit Where she's mad at us?

Richard Well, the mad or it's history, the ancestor of shame here. Now, knowing that I am a fan of the podcast, I made a shocking discovery today as I was on FamilySearch looking at relatives that participated in the Kirtland time period. I gasped when I found out that I am related to Dr. Philastus Hurlbut.

Gerrit Oh, boy.

Richard Second cousin.

Gerrit Oh, boy.

Richard Second cousin.

Gerrit Okay, that's not direct, though.

Richard Five times removed. That's like you're getting invited to a barbecue.

Gerrit Well, I mean-

Richard I mean, not the five times removed will hurt that, but-

Gerrit Well, I mean-

Richard I mean, not the five times removed will hurt that, but-

Gerrit Yeah, you might be in a- It'll be hard to go to a barbecue five times removed.

Richard I feel like it's important here to explain how that works. I had questions about that until we took a trip as a ward to a family search, and the kind lady spent a lot of time explaining once removed. So I believe I have this correct. So correct me if I'm wrong. So my cousin, they have a child. Yes. Right? That is my first cousin once removed.

Gerrit Right.

Richard If I have a child, then those two are second cousins. So there you go. Right.

Gerrit So these are two second cousins then, because she said second cousin.

Richard Second cousin, five times removed.

Gerrit So these are the siblings who had children, who've now been dead five generations, is that?

Richard I don't know if they've been dead five generations, but they're five generations removed.

Gerrit But still.

Richard But still, yes.

Gerrit But still.

Richard But still, yes.

Gerrit Well, look, Betty, that's... Oh, is there more? Go ahead.

Richard Well, so here's the thing though, before I get into it. I believe you've described Philastus as a fornicating fornicator. And so my guess is that he likely had many children.

Gerrit So we actually don't know the limits of his... Yeah, I mean, someday we'll do a whole thing on Dr. Philastus Hurlbut, but I mean, we've already talked about him a little bit.

Richard Yeah, it's one of your favorites.

Gerrit But I mean, he gets disciplined by, at least according to reports, by the Methodist Church, also for improper relations with women.

Richard The Methodist Church is also not true. Did he get affidavits on John Wesley?

Gerrit He did not, because John, he couldn't go back to England.

Richard Charles did this, and Charles was a money digger.

Gerrit We know that at one point later in his life, there is a woman living in his household that is not his wife, and that his wife is living in a different household.

Richard Interesting.

Gerrit I'm sure that's fine. Sure it's above board.

Richard So far, he is the most notorious relative I have discovered, although I do have a great, great grandmother who lived during Pilgrim times that got captured by Native Americans, and in the process of freeing herself and several others, she scalped her captors.

Gerrit Okay.

Richard Okay.

Gerrit It sounds like you could have a movie name.

Richard Okay.

Gerrit It sounds like you could have a movie name.

Richard My goodness. Thank heavens.

Gerrit It starts with scalping. It ends in fornication. It would be a time life movie.

Richard It would be, yeah. Played by Meredith Baxter Burney. Thank heavens for the Savior's atonement and knowledge that my ancestors' sins do not determine my fate. Thanks again for your podcast. I look forward to Mondays and Thursdays.

Gerrit She's doing some premium content.

Richard That suggests that she is.

Gerrit Thank you so much for supporting us.

Richard It's very nice of you. I was told by my son this last week that, cause I forgot to, cause we get a lot of missionary emails, five to 10 every minute we're getting.

Gerrit We will get them while we're recording, missionaries.

Richard They're asking for free access.

Gerrit We have far more missionaries who listen than real people. I apologize to the missionaries that are listening. They know.

Richard So Rigdon's like, Hey, so you haven't done an episode for a while. It's been like two months since I loaded up new ones on the Google. Oh you haven't? Yeah. So it was during the tour and the preparedness for the tour and then coming back from the tour.

Gerrit So like all of our missionaries are just withering on the vine.

Richard Yeah, so anyway, Rigdon pointed out, hey, how would you put some new stuff out? So then I loaded them all up this last week. Anyway, thank you very much. That was a very kind email.

Gerrit And I am also glad that we are judged for our own sins and not for Adam's transgressions. I am too. Obviously, look, we all have ancestors and if we went back far enough in all of our ancestry, all of us would find someone who was not that great. That's the reality. And even in prophetic lines, you find people that are not exactly using their agency in ways that they should. Although, I don't know if I hold it against your great-great-great-great-great-grandmother for trying to escape. I don't know what the rules are of escaping captivity. You probably don't have to scout people, but if it comes up.

Richard If she turns around and goes back.

Gerrit Yeah, if she's already free, then gets a hatchet from a home and comes back. They're like, oh, we're so happy to see you. But, you know, she, and then she makes a month journey back. And then, then it kind of turns into like a Rambo type of thing. Like vengeance. So anyway.

Richard This next email actually comes from a missionary, Elder Nichols.

Gerrit Well, so he's been listening to the unupdated content.

Richard He has actually. Dear Supreme Chancellor Dirkmaat and Mr. Universe LeDuc. Well, thank you actually. I have been hitting the gym. And by that, I went to the gym in March, and I dropped my son off there, and I came back.

Gerrit And you promptly left.

Richard Because then he got his license and I didn't have to drop him off anymore.

Gerrit Yeah, that makes it so much nicer.

Richard Before I give my question, I wanted to let you know that somehow your podcast has caused me to invent meaningless banter between you two as I sleep. So my guess is he's listening to us to drift off to slumber.

Gerrit Yeah, and invent meaningless banter. You mean just repeating what we already do? What is the invent part?

Richard I don't know, it's funny. I dreamt that you were talking about VHS tapes and were reminiscing about how if you played them wrong, they would explode. Then you gave some grand advice about how when you pile them up, the best ones are on the top because you watch them the most. That actually sounds like something, we've had several discussions about, is really VHS tapes.

Gerrit Because we're more of a Betamax.

Richard Elder Nichols does not know what a Betamax is. He doesn't know what a VHS is.

Gerrit Well, he's dreaming about it.

Richard So actually, you know what's funny? One of my favorite things as a kid, because we'd tape the shows on TV. And so George C. Scotch Christmas Carol, we watched until I was going on my mission, but the recording that we did was like in the mid-80s or late 80s. And so like the commercials were actually my favorite in the late 90s as we were rewatching it.

Gerrit It was all live serial.

Richard Oh, they were hilarious, like an AT&T commercial and all this. It was, that was great. All right, so that was a bit of a... Then you complained about how Fern Goley's message was too on the nose and how they had to spell it out for the characters to get it. Boy, don't get Gerrit started on Fern Goley.

Gerrit I feel like that's touching my nerve. That's almost like having a fallacious hurl, but ancestor.

Richard I've never watched that movie, so I have no idea if your review of it that I created was incredibly accurate, Elder Nichols. Thank you so much for giving This Missionary some info, some banter and some humor. You can fill in, there were blanks there, some blank humor, some blank banter, some blank humor.

Gerrit Some bad humor, some bad, yeah.

Richard You can fill in the blanks. I guess this was something to get me through waiting for more episodes of crinkling leaves to show up on the Google Drive. Okay, so he is actually pointing out.

Gerrit Oh yeah, so he's also letting you know.

Richard So we haven't done a crinkling leaf.

Gerrit We haven't for a while.

Richard We haven't.

Gerrit We've been too caught up in trying to make Gerrit angry, apparently.

Richard My question is this. Do you have any documents of Joseph Smith going to any other church on Sunday after he had the First Vision experience? I would think not, as not only did God tell him that all other churches are not the true church, but that he was not a very popular kid. Cut to, and what about Joseph Smith and all them angels with an other airy approved Missouri accent? Oh, that is funny.

Gerrit What, Elder Nichols. He's not even an Ari from Missouri.

Richard What a, it's a deep cut. I think it would be interesting to see a very early Joseph who had learned a few things from God and Jesus Christ, raise his hand in a Sunday school lesson and coming up with something crazy and saying, oh, God told me that. Anyway, keep up the blank work, bad work, I assume, looking forward to stuff.

Gerrit Just stuff?

Richard That's funny.

Gerrit That's a very passive aggressive way of saying, Richard, you haven't loaded anything to this.

Richard I've loaded them all now, Elder Nichols, you got them, they're there.

Gerrit Well, let's talk a little bit about it. So after the First Vision, of course, the family still does go to some religious services. And the one who talks most about this is Lucy. She again is our source for all of these early experiences for Joseph. She says that talking about how there was a big revival, and this is after Alvin died. She says, there was at this time a man then laboring in that place to affect a union of all the churches, that all denominations might be agreed to worship God with one mind and with one heart. This I thought looked right, and tried to persuade my husband to join with them, as I wish to do. It was the inclination of them all, except Joseph. He refused from the first to attend the meetings with us.

Gerrit He would say, Mother, I do not wish to prevent you from going to meeting or joining any church you like or any of the family who desire the like. Only do not ask me to go, for I do not wish to go. So first of all, it's good to know that Joseph's a lot like a lot of us. I don't really want to go to church, but he explains why. He says, but I will take my Bible and go out into the woods and learn more in two hours than you could if you were to go to meeting for two years. So that's how Lucy describes Joseph's reaction to trying to get him to go to church. Now, of course, it isn't just that God told them that all these denominations were false. Remember the first attempt Joseph made to tell someone about the First Vision was to talk to a Methodist preacher that he trusted. And the response of that Methodist preacher was, this is all of the devil, right? So I think it's not just that Joseph has been told by God that the creeds have abominations in his sight.

Gerrit I think it's also his actual experience that he's had, that he knows that, what is this person going to tell me? I can't even get them to accept the fact that I talked to Jesus. And this is after, at least the way Lucy is placing this conversation, is after Alvin's death. So at this point, Joseph's already been visited five times by the angel Moroni. He already knows the gold plates exist, even though he can't get them. You can see why Joseph might say, look, you all can go to church if you want. I'm kind of doing my own thing over here, because Angel Moroni is still chastising me for trying to steal the plates last week. So I probably, Reverend Johnson might be a great guy, but I'm pretty sure he isn't going to help me with my life problems, because my problems involve me trying to steal the gold plates for money. So what you do get, though, is even though Joseph has that feeling when he's younger, Joseph, of course, is going to become a huge advocate of taking the good things that other religions provide and trying to add to them the revelations and the understanding that has been delivered to him.

Gerrit One thing that is very, it's commented on by several people, is that Joseph allows people to come to Nauvoo and to preach to his people. And there are lots of pastors who decide, you know what, I'm going to go reclaim them Mormons. And one of the things that they're surprised at is that Joseph lets them speak. And as he told one visitor to Nauvoo, asked about it, like, you're really going to let this preacher from another religion speak? And Joseph said, there's no danger, but that people will accept the greatest light. For Joseph, he was certain that he had been given the greatest truth that anyone on earth had been given. So I think for Joseph, he's thinking, look, I'm teaching you how you existed before you came here. I'm teaching you that there's new modern scripture. I'm teaching you that marriages can be for eternity.

Gerrit I'm teaching you that every single person who ever lived on earth has the ability to be exalted, and even those that aren't exalted are all going to go to some level of heaven. If you want to listen to a Presbyterian minister talk to you about how God only chose to save five people, and he happens to be one of them, and that everyone else is burning in hell, I mean, at that point, you know, I guess go ahead. I mean, you clearly don't appreciate the truths that you have if you're going to be swayed by someone making that kind of an argument. So Joseph feels pretty open about it. Now, sometimes his interactions with other passers are quite contentious, like the one who stopped by his house in Kirtland and told him that he had been visited by an angel and told him what the angel was dressed like. And at that point, Joseph stopped him and said, well, you weren't visited by an angel because angels don't dress like that.

Gerrit Now, Joseph's not just quoting scripture here. Joseph's like, I've seen like dozens of angels at this point.

Richard Like today.

Gerrit Yeah, like, yeah, I saw an angel like while I was having my Wheaties and also that's not what an angel's dressed like. And so that pastor, you know, started to curse Joseph and he went out into the yard in front of Joseph's house in Kirtland and he called down fire from heaven on Joseph's house to consume it.

Richard What would Joseph do if he had frosted Wheaties or whatever?

Gerrit Frosted flakes.

Richard No, not frosted flakes. Frosted. What's the Wheaties, but with?

Gerrit Wheaties with frost. What the heck? I feel like, did I have a stroke? I feel like we need to.

Richard I smell toast. So, like, like with that kind of sugar, like, I would imagine like his body would go into some, because like, they have sugar. Yeah, but I mean, come on.

Gerrit Yeah, I mean, it's expensive and they, you know.

Richard Like for Christmas, they get an orange.

Gerrit They think that molasses is a real treat. They're like you going to visit your great, great grandfather, unless you happen to be Betty, whose great, great, great, great, great grand uncle is Dr. Floss's Hurlbut.

Richard So frosted mini wheats. That's the word.

Gerrit Oh, my goodness. I thought you were talking about flakes.

Richard No, no, no, no. You said Wheaties, right? So, but like.

Gerrit Yeah, Wheaties are a flake.

Richard Right.

Gerrit You're thinking of mini wheats.

Richard Right.

Gerrit You're thinking of mini wheats.

Richard Yes.

Gerrit Yes.

Richard Yes.

Gerrit Yes.

Richard So, but I'm saying like the reaction to that, because I assumed that everything that they ate was gross. Yeah.

Gerrit And was rotten.

Richard It was rotten, tasted terrible.

Gerrit Everything was rotten, tasted terrible. There was no deodorant, no showers. You do the math.

Richard So, he'd be less surprised by seeing an angel than a frosted mini wheat. Like a frosted mini wheat is like, what is this?

Gerrit At this point in his life, he sees an angel a lot.

Richard Right.

Gerrit He hasn't seen a frosted mini wheat.

Richard Right.

Gerrit He hasn't seen a frosted mini wheat.

Richard I'm even putting it like at 18. He's still like, man, those frosted mini wheats.

Gerrit So back to the story, to the non mini wheat part of the story. This pastor goes outside Joseph's house and he calls down fire from heaven on Joseph's house. And of course, this great spoiler alert is fire doesn't drop from heaven and consume Joseph's house. That doesn't happen. But Joseph decides that he will, well, like Betty's great, great, great, great grandmother taking scalps as she goes, Joseph decides that he takes the role of Elijah in this and calls out of his house to this guy who's calling for fire to come down out of heaven. And Joseph says, you know, your God doesn't hear you. Do you want to cut yourself? You know, because he's the same way that Elijah mocked the priests of Baal when they were trying to get fired to drop on their sacrifice.

Gerrit So Joseph has what Joseph doesn't have patience for is he doesn't have patience that don't have for people that don't treat his people with respect and dignity. That's where he doesn't have patience. But he also has very kind and, you know, good interactions with other people. So for instance, we know that in 1843, he is traveling outside of Nauvoo, and they go and they listen to a Methodist preacher preaching about Genesis. And when this preacher is done, kind of like what you were envisioning, Joseph raising his hand in Sunday school, Joseph, you know, at least according to William Clayton's journal, offered some corrections about Genesis chapter two, verse seven. And what's interesting is that, at least according to William Clayton, the preacher was very interested in what Joseph had to say and said, you know what, I'm going to visit Nauvoo.

Gerrit So we don't know whatever happened with any of that. So Joseph is certainly very familiar with what is being taught in other churches. He's more than willing to listen to what other preachers have to say. And he even invites other preachers to Nauvoo to preach to the people. But yeah, they don't really do Sunday school the same way. So if that's what's in your mind, Elder, probably not. Now there's one other thing that I probably I would be remiss if I didn't talk about. And that is there's an antagonistic claim that Joseph Smith joined the Methodist Church after the First Vision, after he actually, you know, had already visited with Moroni.

Richard Well, that would suggest he was somewhat partial to the Methodist sect.

Gerrit Which Joseph tells us he was very partial to it. And so people like, why would Joseph join the Methodist Church if God has already told him that none of the churches are true? I've always thought this was a weird argument even to begin with, right? I mean, so there is no true church on the earth yet, but you're just going to not go to church at all because they don't have all the truth? That seems weird, honestly. I mean, I can see why Joseph's saying, look, I'm not going to learn a whole lot from them. But if Emma and her family, you know, when they moved to Harmony want to go to church, Joseph doesn't have a problem going to other churches. But that's clearly not an issue for him. And so where does that claim come from? Well, it comes from a much later account from the sons of Reverend Nathaniel Lewis, who was related to, he's related to the Hales down in Harmony.

Gerrit And so in 1879, okay, so 1879, so that we're slightly removed from when Joseph was living in Harmony in 1828, okay, there's a little bit of a distance there. Well, and 1829, yeah. So you know what? It's only 50 years.

Richard Yeah, I remember where I was 50 years ago.

Gerrit I don't, but that's because of the veil. So in this account that's published in the Amboy Journal, it's an Illinois newspaper, they talk about Joseph, and of course, it's very negative, the entire point. I mean, the article is called Mormon History, a New Chapter About to Be Published. It's not positive. They talk about a lot of things like Joseph finding the plates. And you know what, this is probably good enough that we're going to read this, because you're going to like this. This is an account of the Angel Moroni that you've never heard before, and you're going to be excited about it.

Richard All right, awesome.

Gerrit Okay, now remember this is all false. Well, I mean, look, this is, I mean, I assume, but this is what they said. They said, this is what, you know, our recollections of the precise language may be faulty, but as to the substance, the following is correct. He said that by a dream, he was informed that at such a place in a certain hill, in an iron box. Now, I don't know how in the world it would be an iron box at this point. It's literally always been a concrete or stone box. They've got iron, whatever. Or some gold plates. But at any rate, an iron box with some gold plates, with curious engravings, which he must get and translate and write a book, that the plates were to be kept concealed from every human being for a certain time, some two or three years, that he went to the place and dug till he came to the stone that covered the box. And now they're claiming that he had to dig to find the stone that covered the box, which again, there's no other account that says that. When he was knocked down, that he again attempted to remove the stone and was knocked down again.

Richard All right, awesome.

Gerrit Okay, now remember this is all false. Well, I mean, look, this is, I mean, I assume, but this is what they said. They said, this is what, you know, our recollections of the precise language may be faulty, but as to the substance, the following is correct. He said that by a dream, he was informed that at such a place in a certain hill, in an iron box. Now, I don't know how in the world it would be an iron box at this point. It's literally always been a concrete or stone box. They've got iron, whatever. Or some gold plates. But at any rate, an iron box with some gold plates, with curious engravings, which he must get and translate and write a book, that the plates were to be kept concealed from every human being for a certain time, some two or three years, that he went to the place and dug till he came to the stone that covered the box. And now they're claiming that he had to dig to find the stone that covered the box, which again, there's no other account that says that. When he was knocked down, that he again attempted to remove the stone and was knocked down again.

Gerrit This attempt was made a third time. And the third time he was knocked down, he exclaimed, why can't I get it? Or words to that effect. And this is the part you're going to love. And then he saw a man standing over the spot, which appeared to him like a Spaniard, having a long beard coming down over his breast to about here, Smith putting his hand on the pit of his stomach.

Richard Like a Don Quixote style looking...

Gerrit Like a Conquistador. Yeah.

Richard Like he's wearing the helmet.

Gerrit Or maybe we'll get to that one. Well, let's keep going. With his, the ghost's throat... Okay, so the Spaniard that's standing there.

Richard Yes.

Gerrit With his throat cut from ear to ear and the blood streaming down. That's what he's saying the vision he has, is the Spaniard with a really long beard and a cut throat with blood spewing out of it.

Richard Yes.

Gerrit With his throat cut from ear to ear and the blood streaming down. That's what he's saying the vision he has, is the Spaniard with a really long beard and a cut throat with blood spewing out of it.

Richard Well, the cut throat, now that, now it's like, okay, now that sound, that provides credence and credibility to the, because before that, I'm like, come on, this wouldn't be a spaniard.

Gerrit Why would the ghost have blood?

Richard Less after...

Gerrit Well, if your throat's cut, sure. Anyway, let's go on. With his throat cut from ear to ear and the blood streaming down, who told him that he could not get it alone, that another person whom he, Smith, would know at first sight must come with him, and then he could get it. And when Smith saw Miss Emma Hale, he knew that she was the person, and that after they were married, she went with him to near the place and stood with her back towards him while he dug up the box. So she just like turned around, I'll turn around, you get it, because I'm not allowed to look at it. It's kind of like a, probably like a Raiders of the Lost Ark thing.

Richard Yeah, yeah, close your eyes.

Gerrit Close your eyes. Don't look, Marion, don't look. Which he rolled up in his frock. I'm not entirely sure how you dig up a box and then roll it up in your frock, but.

Richard Well, you don't have a digging frock?

Gerrit Well, all of my frocks are digging frocks. What I'm saying is I've never gotten an iron box out of the ground with plates in it and then rolled it up in my frock. Have you? You haven't lived. I haven't lived.

Richard So the problem is that I find myself, so first of all, any frock can become a digging frock if you're in a frock and you start digging.

Gerrit Yeah.

Richard But my problem is I wear my Sunday frock or my dress frock, and then I find myself digging, and I'm like, well, here we go, and I gotta wrap it up.

Gerrit Yeah.

Richard But my problem is I wear my Sunday frock or my dress frock, and then I find myself digging, and I'm like, well, here we go, and I gotta wrap it up.

Gerrit Yeah, it's true. It's kind of like you have a t-shirt that's kind of a nice t-shirt, and then you grill in it. And now it's not a nice t-shirt anymore. It's just stained with.

Richard So for me, it's latkes. When I cook, I'm gonna ruin my shoes, my pants, shirt, everything. Oil-covered disaster.

Gerrit My latke frock, though. The price he pays for his Hanukkah celebration. So anyway, the spandyr with the spurting blood is the one who tells him that he's gotta know who it is.

Richard This is so great.

Gerrit Isn't this the best-

Richard Why is this not in more Sunday School lessons?

Gerrit I don't know. Do you think it's maybe the veracity of it?

Richard When has that ever stopped anyone from- I'm not saying that it's part of the lesson material. I'm saying brought up in Sunday School.

Gerrit No one knows about it.

Richard Okay, well now they will.

Gerrit Well, you know what? I expect it to be brought up as a poor source. So he covered it as frock, and she helped him carry it home. That in the same box with the plates were spectacles. The bows were of gold, and the eyes were stone. And by looking through these spectacles, all the characters on the plates were translated into English. So then he's going to also claim that, you know, in all this narrative, there was not one word about the visions of God or of angels or any heavenly revelations. All of his information was by that dream and that bleeding ghost, which if you were English, you think that he's cursing when he says it, but no, he literally is saying it's a spander with a...

Richard So look, Joseph was looking for a Spanish mine. I think the connection to a Spanish ghost with his throat slit actually tracks.

Gerrit So instead, that's what's really going on, is that... So who slit the throat of the Spanish ghost?

Richard We're gonna get to the bottom.

Gerrit I'm gonna get our crack research team on it. Crack research team on it. Now you might be wondering, what does this have to do with what church did Joseph Smith attend or join?

Richard Or anything.

Gerrit Yeah, I feel like people are at least getting something out of it though.

Richard This in four years is my favorite story you've ever read.

Gerrit This is great. I need Anthony Sweatt to create an art piece of the Spaniard standing there.

Richard I literally, nothing has tickled me more than this story.

Gerrit Okay, well, let me go on. It doesn't get any better though. You can't...

Richard No, you start...

Gerrit We jump the shark already.

Richard Yeah, you start with the creme brulee and you're working back to Brussels sprouts.

Gerrit Yeah, anyway, it's in this same account that he goes on to say, the moving of Smith from York State to Harmony has been stated by Mr. Hale. And while he, Smith, was in Harmony, Pennsylvania, translating his book, he made the above statements in our presence to Reverend Lewis. It was here also that he joined the Methodist Episcopal Church. He presented himself in a very serious and humble manner, and the minister not suspecting evil put his name on the class book. In the absence of some of the official members, among whom was the undersigned Joseph Lewis, who, when he learned what they had done, took with him Joshua McCune and had a talk with Smith. They told him plainly that such a character as he was was a disgrace to the church, that he could not be a member of the church unless he broke off his sins by repentance, made a public confession, renounced his fraudulent and hypocritical practices, and gave some evidence that he intended to reform and conduct himself somewhat nearer like a Christian than he had done.

Gerrit They gave him his choice to go before the class and publicly ask to have his name stricken from the class book or to stand a disciplinary investigation. He chose the former and immediately withdrew his name. So his name as a member of the class was on the book only three days. It was the general opinion that his only object in joining the church was to bolster up his reputation and gain the sympathy and help of Christians. That is, putting on the cloak of religion to serve the devil. So that's not a very positive view of Joseph Smith that's given many years after the fact. But it does, you know, it is very colorful.

Richard So essentially you're saying that possibly he didn't, if this is a source for that he did that, he probably didn't do it.

Gerrit Well, right. I mean, it's a terrible, terrible, terrible source. Also, that's not how you... So the antagonist will say Joseph joined the Methodist Church when he was in Harmony. This is the source that they have, when clearly it's just, you know, you aren't able to just run out and join the Methodist Church. You have to go through a catechism type of probationary period. So yeah, Joseph could have attended a Sunday school and had his name written in a class role, but that's not the same thing as being a Methodist. And so sometimes people project onto Joseph their own issues. And so in their mind, you know, you Mormons think that no other church has any truth in it, and so why would Joseph go to any other church? Well, first of all, because we don't believe that. No other church has any truth in it. We believe that there's truth in all of these Christian churches, and we also believe there's truth in Islam, and we believe there's truth in Hinduism. We believe there's truth everywhere. So we're not afraid of the idea of going to another church, but clearly even the stories they tell, it doesn't involve Joseph becoming a full member of the Methodist Church, even if that were the case.

Gerrit If Joseph is just attending a local Sunday school, I mean, I don't really see the issue of it to begin with. I mean, you think that would be something that you would highlight rather than denigrate that Joseph was still willing to show credence and appreciation for other religious groups. And, you know, as so often is the case when it comes to an antagonist of the church, there's no way to win, right? So if Joseph said, I will never ever step foot in another Christian church because they're all abominations and they're evil, the antagonist would say, you see how just, you know, short-sighted and parochial Mormonism is. It teaches all of its members to not even look anywhere else. They can't even think for themselves. And if Joseph were to attend another church, the response would be, oh, really? See, that just shows he didn't really have a First Vision. Why would he attend another church if God told them that no other churches were true?

Gerrit And frankly, you've heard both arguments. So it's just not a very good, it's not a good argument. It's clearly a terrible source. And even if it were the case, clearly Joseph wasn't a full member of the church anyway. He simply attended. But this was a way of demonstrating, you know, how much the Hales and their relatives had nothing to do with this Mormon heresy. So that probably was more than the Elder was looking for.

Richard I think that's exactly what Elder Nichols was looking for.

Gerrit Elder Andy was also looking for you to upload more episodes.

Richard You know what, Elder Nichols, thanks for the email because I have now uploaded those. And Gerrit told a great story that I can't wait to see the memes on that one. So we don't have time quite to get to the topic that I hoped we would, hopefully maybe next week.

Gerrit We'll see.

Richard So in the time we have left, I wanted to change course a little bit and read a different email that we got from a senior missionary.

Gerrit So this is an all missionary almost. Almost. If we could get Betty on a mission.

Richard Well, if she wants free content, that's the way to get it.

Gerrit She's already subscribed. Betty, we need you to go on a mission so you can get it free.

Richard So this comes to us from Elder Carter. Season two, episode 12, you make the statement that when Joseph comes home and tells his family that he's seen the father and son, that they immediately believe him, paraphrased. As a senior missionary, I gave presentations developed by historians at the Church History Library. Regarding the First Vision, we taught that other than Joseph telling his mom that her church was wrong, there was really no evidence that he widely shared the experience. Did I get that wrong? From Elder Carter.

Gerrit Well, wrong is a very, I mean, I think that there's a lot of gray area there. So let me first explain the reason why I say what I say. Okay, so what I say comes from, let's start with Joseph Smith's, from the story that the elder just referenced, right? From Joseph Smith's history, right? He explains that, you know, when the light had departed, I had no strength, but soon recovering in some degree, I went home and as I was leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, never mind, all is well. I am well enough off. I then said to my mother, I've learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true. Now, that's a big deal because his mom's a member of the Presbyterian Church. So that's not just Joseph randomly picking a denomination out of like, you know, his mom is like a Yankees fan and Joseph is, you know, just saying, I've learned for myself that the Red Sox are terrible.

Gerrit You know, and that, because then she'd probably be okay with that. Yeah, she would be, yeah, right. But instead, Joseph's saying, hey, the church that you pay money to and that you have a pew at is not the true one. And so you can see why someone would say, well, that's all that he says. But as he goes on, he says, it seems though the adversary was aware at a very early period in my life that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom. Else, why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the opposition and persecution that arose against me almost in my infancy? Some few days after I had this vision, I happened to be in company with one of the Methodist preachers who was very active in the before mentioned religious excitement. And conversing with him on the subject of religion, I took occasion to give him an account of the vision which I had had. I was greatly surprised at his behavior. So that first of all tells you that Joseph assumed that this guy would be happy for him. I've always thought with this aspect of the First Vision, this is really similar to whenever I taught about the First Vision to people on my mission.

Gerrit And they would love it, and they would feel the spirit, and they would say, Oh my gosh, I need to talk to my pastor. He would love this. And I'd be like, I don't think that he will. No, no, you don't understand. If he knew about this, he would be so excited. I think he does know about it. Let's maybe not talk to the pastor about it.

Richard I had many, many, because it's such coming from a place of innocence where they're like, Oh my goodness, this is the greatest thing.

Gerrit If my pastor knew that there was another testament of Jesus Christ, you don't understand how much he loves Jesus. I'm like, I'm well aware that he loves Jesus. I'm also well aware that he's going to know what the Book of Mormon is, and he's coming for you, you know. But Joseph has that same kind of investigator like demeanor. He thinks that he's going to tell this pastor that he clearly trusts that he saw God in Jesus, and the guy is going to say, what an amazing vision from God this is. I took occasion to give him an account of the vision which I had. I was greatly surprised at his behavior. He treated my communication not only lightly, but with great contempt, saying it was all of the devil, and that there were no such things as visions or revelations in these days, and that all such things had ceased with the apostles, and there would never be any more of them. I soon found, however, that my telling the story had excited a great deal of prejudice against me among professors of religion, and was the cause of great persecution which continued to increase.

Gerrit And though I was an obscure boy only 14 and 15 years old, years of age, my circumstances of life such as to make a boy of no consequence in the world, yet men of high standing would take notice sufficient to excite the public mind against me and create a bitter persecution. This was common among all the sex, all united to persecute me. It caused me serious reflection that and often has since, how very strange it was that an obscure boy of a little over 14 years of age, and one too who was doomed to the necessity of obtaining a scanty maintenance by his daily labor, should be thought a character of sufficient importance to attract the attention of the great ones of the most popular sex of the day and in a manner to create in them a spirit of the most bitter persecution and reviling. But strange or not, so it was, and it was often the cause of great sorrow to myself.

Gerrit Joseph spends a lot of time on this, that there are lots of people reacting to his vision. Now he doesn't say that he told lots of people about his vision, but apparently whoever he told is telling lots of other people, because all these great religionists are coming by to attack him.

Richard Well, I got to imagine this is the kind of story that would spread.

Gerrit Right, which is the same reason why an antagonist says, well, then how come it's not in any local newspaper? I mean, the same reason why in your local hometown, there might be a crazy person who goes up and down the street saying that they're Judas Iscariot. I don't know why you'd pick that.

Richard You know what? That actually would make it in the local penny saver.

Gerrit It might.

Richard Bill thinks he's Judas Iscariot.

Gerrit Well, after he finished committing adultery, we did have someone send us a meme that was an angry-looking bird that said anyone named Bill listening to the podcast, because Bill's our random adulterer.

Richard Yeah, that's right.

Gerrit He's not our fornicating fornicator like your cousin.

Richard Yeah, Betty's second cousin five times removed.

Gerrit But Joseph is pretty clear that there are people that go out of their way to persecute him. And so the rumor mill is going to present things. Now, look, I'm not surprised at all that the local newspaper didn't say, hey, guess what? There's a 14-year-old in town who says they saw Jesus, because it really is this kind of rumor mill. And so it's not that surprising that it's not taken up. But his parents do reference the fact that he's being persecuted. So, you know, for instance, Lucy Mac Smith and her account, after she tells the whole Joseph Smith story, quoting it from the Joseph Smith history, she says from this time until the 21st of September 1823, Joseph continued as usual the labor with his father, and nothing during this interval occurred of very great importance, though he suffered every kind of opposition and persecution from the different orders of religion.

Gerrit So, at some point, if the parents are aware that religionists are coming by the house to attack Joseph, they have to be aware in some regard that Joseph is at least claiming he had a vision. I mean, my guess is that these religionists would even say to his parents, you know your boy is telling people he had a vision. Maybe there's not the details there. But Lucy Mack is remembering that Joseph was being persecuted before he saw the angel. Now, in Joseph Smith's own account, in his 1832 account of the vision, this is the one that he wrote with his own hand, the earliest account that we have. He says, my soul, this is after the vision, my soul was filled with love for many days, and I could rejoice with great joy, and the Lord was with me, but could find none that would believe the heavenly vision. Nevertheless, I pondered these things in my heart.

Gerrit Now, that suggests that Joseph is telling somebody more than just one person. I mean, it's kind of a weird phrase, all of you, to say, I tried to tell one person.

Richard I could find none.

Gerrit I couldn't find anybody. I looked around in the field. I was by myself.

Richard My wife would say, and that's when I'm looking for something, hey, I can't find this.

Gerrit Yeah, but you're not even looking.

Richard Pretty much. I'm not looking. And similar here. Hey, I don't see the milk. You said the milk was here. I don't see the milk.

Gerrit But you already know that she knows where the milk is, so just tell me already. And look, this isn't the only time that Joseph mentions this, when he's interviewed by David Nye White, which is one of the accounts of the First Vision. The way that Joseph describes it is, he explains the whole First Vision account. Behold, my beloved son, hear him. I then address this second person saying, oh Lord, what church shall I join? He replied, don't join any of them. They are all corrupt. The vision then vanished, and when I came to myself, I was sprawling on my back, and it was sometime before my strength returned. When I went home and told the people that I had a revelation, and that all the churches were corrupt, they persecuted me, and they have persecuted me ever since. So you at least have a pretty strong inclination in Joseph Smith's own account of things that he told people about the vision.

Gerrit Now, it's true. So, I mean, look, both things can be true. We don't have an account from Joseph Smith Senior or from Mother Smith saying, Joseph came and told us all about the vision, and we believed him. You have to assume that that is the case during this period of persecution, because they are not rejecting what their son is saying. And when Joseph does have an angel appear to him, again, Joseph tells his father and his father believes him. So, I mean, so I think both things can be true. We don't have a specific statement from Joseph. I went and I told my parents. But it becomes incredibly difficult to believe that there are so many people who know about it, that they're stopping by the house, that they're persecuting Joseph so much that that makes up multiple verses of his account of this experience. But the Joseph Smith Senior and Lucy just have literally no idea what's going on around them.

Gerrit They would have to be the most oblivious parents of all time to believe that their son is being persecuted by all these pastors, that they're not hearing the rumor mill that's going around in town, but they know nothing about Joseph claiming to have had a vision. It doesn't really... It doesn't comport with what Joseph is saying happened in multiple of his accounts.

Richard This actually is a good example of, in history, when you don't have exact evidence of a particular thing, but you've got some things like this, then you talk about how, well, so what's the most likely then thing, and the fact that he would have talked or that his family would have known about it seems to be the most likely thing.

Gerrit Even if he didn't tell them directly, how many people have to stop by your house saying, I need to yell at your 14-year-old before a good parent says, and what is this about? I mean, sure, you can yell at my 14-year-old, but wouldn't it be great if I at least knew why you were yelling at my 14-year-old? Now, some of us with 14-year-olds are probably thinking, you know what? No, they can yell at him for any reason. Maybe it will stick this time, right? I mean, maybe there's some very cynical parents out there that are just like, you know, you can yell at my 14-year-old for any reason. But yeah, so from the absence of evidence, someone might argue, well, he doesn't specifically tell them. And yet Joseph seems to relate that lots of people know about it. You know, the last evidence we could look at is the account of William Smith. Now, this is many, many, many years later. And there's all kinds of problems with William Smith's account.

Gerrit First of all, there's all kinds of problems with William Smith. I mean, this guy is as watery as the day is long. He's changing what his position is on Joseph. He's fighting to keep Utah from becoming a state. But he still believes Joseph Smith was a prophet. And part of the problem with William Smith's accounts is he kind of mixes things together, like he puts things out of order a lot. So it's hard to be definitive about it. Still, the way that he talks about it, in fact, let me read another portion of this that I wasn't planning to read, but because Richard was so interested in frogs.

Richard Oh, yeah, absolutely. Wait, William Smith is going to talk about a digging frog? Well, again, any frog is a digging frog.

Gerrit Well, let's talk about it. Brother Briggs then handed me a pencil and asked Brother Smith if he ever saw the plates his brother had, from which the Book of Mormon was translated. William Smith replied, I did not see them uncovered, but I handled them and hefted them while wrapped in a toe frog.

Richard What is a toe frog?

Gerrit Well, spelled T-O-W, so something that you call something.

Richard Oh, I see.

Gerrit Yeah, which is not the same as a digging frog. But you have a closet of frogs. You've got one white shirt, one pair of brown pants, one brown vest. There's nothing but frogs. And everything else is just frogs. It's a digging frog, a toe frog. This is my breakfast frog.

Richard It makes me think of like episodes of The Simpsons, where they make fun of the fact they're wearing the same clothes. So Bart opens his closet and it's just all the same. That's what I assume.

Gerrit Yeah, that's what I do when I find clothes that I like. And members of our tour called me out on it like, hey, you're wearing the same type of shirt, just a different color.

Richard Yeah, that's right.

Gerrit Yeah, that's what I do. That's who I am now. Anyway, talking about this, he wrapped them in a toe frog and judged them to have weighed about 60 pounds. I could tell they were plates of some kind and that they were fastened together by rings running through the back. Their size was as described in Mother's history. Did any of the families see them? Yes. Father and my brother Samuel saw them, as did I, while in the frock. See, frock keeps coming back.

Richard This is exciting.

Gerrit So did Hyrum and others of the family. Was this frock one that Joseph took with him especially to wrap up the plates? No. It was his everyday frock, just as young men used to wear then.

Richard I feel like you're messing with me.

Gerrit No, I'm reading it. This is from the source. This is the original source.

Richard That's great.

Gerrit This is republished in the Millennial Star. It's actually 1894 is when this is being republished. It was his everyday frock, such as young men used to wear then. Didn't you want to remove the cloth and see the bare plates? No, for father had just asked if he might not be permitted to do so, and Joseph, putting his hand on them, said, No, I'm instructed not to show them to anyone. See, this isn't quite as good because there's not a ghost Spaniard spurting blood everywhere. Spurting ghost blood, apparently, everywhere. Besides, we did not care to have him break the commandment and suffer as he did before. But then as he talks about the persecution, did you not doubt Joseph's testimony sometimes? No, we all had the most implicit confidence in what he said. He was a truthful boy. Father and mother believed him. Why should not the children? I suppose if he had told crooked stories about other things, we might have doubted his word about the place.

Gerrit But Joseph was a truthful boy. That father and mother believed his report and suffered persecution for that belief shows that he was truthful. No, sir, we never doubted his word for one minute. Well, said Brother Briggs, it is said that Joseph and the rest of his family were lazy and indolent. We never heard of any such thing until after Joseph told of his vision and not then by our friends. When the neighbors wanted a good day's work done, they knew where they could get a good hand, and they were not particular to take any of the other boys before Joseph either. We cleared 60 acres of the heaviest timber I ever saw. We had a good place. We also had on it from 1200 to 1500 sugar trees. To gather the sap and to make sugar and molasses from that number of trees was no lazy job. We worked hard to clear our place, and the neighbors were a little jealous. If you will figure out how much work it would take to clear 60 acres of heavy timberland heavier than any here that goes without saying is anywhere outside of the East, trees you could not conveniently cut down.

Gerrit You can tell whether we were lazy or not. And Joseph did his share of the work with the rest of the boys. We never knew that we were bad folks until Joseph told his vision. We were considered to be respectable until then. But at once, people began to circulate falsehoods and stories in a wonderful way. So now look, maybe what he's really referencing is the appearance of the angel as that vision. But at least the way William Smith is remembering it is much the same way that Joseph Smith remembered it. Things were fine until I told someone I had a vision, and then things stopped being fine, which is one of the things we talked about before, that Joseph Smith was certified as a viable witness as a 13-year-old in a court case involving his family in 1819, that the judge and the jury said that he was a credible witness.

Gerrit And so there are stories everywhere going around that Joseph is just a liar and Joseph is just lazy. Why in the world are they certifying him as a credible witness and allowing his testimony to carry the day because the Smith family win, in part because of Joseph's testimony? Seems like there's a lot of after the fact. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, the Smiths, they were a real problem. But we don't have any of that. So at the same time, people will say things like, how come we don't have any accounts of the First Vision earlier? The same person asking that question isn't asking, how come we don't have any accounts of how terrible the Smiths were before the First Vision? Isn't that a similar question to ask? Oh, they're so bad. Everyone in town knows what terrible people they are. They're liars, they're crooks, they're thieves. They're thieves. Everyone knows all they do is dig for treasure. But not one person in one journal, in one account, in one newspaper ever said any of those things ever.

Gerrit Not one letter, not one anything. But we're just supposed to believe that that's the case because people later said it. And that same person who wants to say that that's Joseph's true character is the same person who will attack the fact that no newspaper reports on Joseph Smith's First Vision. Frankly, they're using historical resources alternately. If we don't have a source, then it's fine if it's what we want. And then if we do have a source and it's what we want, then it's the greatest source that ever existed. And that just shows the partisan nature of people that are attacking the prophet. But what do we have? We have a legal document. We have a court record of Joseph being credible when he's a 13-year-old. We don't have something coming from the other side. So, Elder, that's the reason why I share. Because I'm taking Joseph at his face value, that he's told multiple people about this, that no one will believe him.

Gerrit And Lucy and Joseph and William all saying that they were persecuted after Joseph told of the First Vision, not just after the angel, but after he told of the First Vision. And so it is by implication, clearly Joseph's family is at least going to hear, maybe not the details, but they're at least going to hear by the same rumors that everyone else is hearing, that Joseph is saying that he had a vision. So thank you so much for listening to our podcast this week. Hopefully everyone enjoyed it. Hopefully the missionaries finally have some new material to look at. I expect thousands of more emails from missionaries going forward and a lot more discussion about frocks.

Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.

Joseph's Experiences Attending Other Churches

Chapters

Transcript

Quote board

Source shelf

Lucy Mack Smith's history, on the revival after Alvin's death

Lucy Mack Smith's history (continued)

Joseph Smith to a visitor to Nauvoo, on letting other preachers speak (visitor not named on air)

1 Kings 18 (Elijah and the priests of Baal; identified, not cited on air)

William Clayton's journal, 1843

Amboy Journal (Illinois), 1879, "Mormon History, a New Chapter About to Be Published" (account from the sons of Reverend Nathaniel Lewis)

Amboy Journal, 1879, the Spaniard at the hill

Amboy Journal, 1879, on Joseph and the Methodist class book

Joseph Smith–History 1:20

Joseph Smith–History 1:21-25

Lucy Mack Smith's history, on the years 1820-1823

Joseph Smith's 1832 account of the First Vision

David Nye White interview with Joseph Smith (1843)

William Smith interview with Brother Briggs, republished in the Millennial Star, 1894

1819 court case involving the Smith family

Episode quiz

Which notorious figure did Betty discover was her second cousin five times removed?

Fun with Numbers

From 1819 to 1894

Putting numbers to words

What this episode talks about more than usual

Names said most

Signature words

More from this episode

Claim check

Take it to class

Banter bin

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

Go deeper

Joseph's Experiences Attending Other Churches

Ever so slight prep

Lucy Mack Smith's history, on the revival after Alvin's death

Lucy Mack Smith's history (continued)

Joseph Smith to a visitor to Nauvoo, on letting other preachers speak (visitor not named on air)

1 Kings 18 (Elijah and the priests of Baal; identified, not cited on air)

William Clayton's journal, 1843

Amboy Journal (Illinois), 1879, "Mormon History, a New Chapter About to Be Published" (account from the sons of Reverend Nathaniel Lewis)

Amboy Journal, 1879, the Spaniard at the hill

Amboy Journal, 1879, on Joseph and the Methodist class book

Joseph Smith–History 1:20

Joseph Smith–History 1:21-25

Lucy Mack Smith's history, on the years 1820-1823

Joseph Smith's 1832 account of the First Vision

David Nye White interview with Joseph Smith (1843)

William Smith interview with Brother Briggs, republished in the Millennial Star, 1894

1819 court case involving the Smith family

Which notorious figure did Betty discover was her second cousin five times removed?

From 1819 to 1894

Putting numbers to words

What this episode talks about more than usual

Names said most

Signature words