Changes to the Aaronic Priesthood

Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.

Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend who is creeping ever closer to a dissertation defense. He's so close that he may even have the defense scheduled. Is that correct? Richard Raduke.

Richard Hello, Gerrit. Thanks for having me back. Yeah, we have a tentative date planned. Well, we have a day and a month. We do not have a year.

Gerrit So it's just like the Second Coming. Yeah, that was the reverse of the Second Coming.

Richard We made that joke on the premium. And so for all the missionaries in the Philippines listening to that, I apologize for that. Even the angels in heaven do not know when the dissertation defense will be. But we are creeping ever closer as I am wearing them down. I am not getting better, improving. But they are growing tired of me. And we're almost there. I did actually, this is very important. My dad has recently become a premium member because we don't give it to anybody for free, except for missionaries.

Gerrit Right. My mom pays. Legit Renee pays. So look, I would give it to my mom for free, but there's no ability for us to do that.

Richard Well, she can't, the Google Drive wouldn't work.

Gerrit Right. So look, we could give her access to a Google Drive with all of them in there.

Richard Yes.

Gerrit But the chances of her navigating a Google Drive are similar to my chances of creating cold fusion while we're recording this podcast.

Richard Yes.

Gerrit But the chances of her navigating a Google Drive are similar to my chances of creating cold fusion while we're recording this podcast.

Richard Well, so my dad felt very jealous of Rachel's mom and of Renee, being that, you know, he's my dad and I don't mention him on the podcast.

Gerrit And I'm like, well. Did you tell him you got second billing and that's why?

Richard Yeah. I said, create a smarter son. Look, it's your fault.

Gerrit Yeah.

Richard I don't know anything.

Gerrit Yeah.

Richard I don't know anything.

Gerrit This is your thing. When I start my business podcast, then we could just go full Dan. Yeah.

Richard Yeah. And that's what people who join business podcasts, they love like the banter about your parents. They love that.

Gerrit I find most people listening to business podcasts are very concerned about entertainment.

Richard Yeah. Before we talk about what's happening on the street, I want to tell a quick anecdote about my father. I love those on the business podcast.

Gerrit We've got a new indication from the Nikkei index. But first of all.

Richard Well, so anyway, Dad, thank you for being a premium member. And look, I'm sure there's a way to give this for free. I just haven't looked into it.

Gerrit We tried. We've looked into it. There have been times where like, you know.

Richard I have not looked into it.

Gerrit So here's what's funny. I create the premium content. I don't mean just me. obviously Richard does as well. I mean, not really. I legitimately pay $10 a month to have access to my own content because there's no way to give it to anyone for free.

Richard Here's the thing that's funny. I don't pay for it.

Gerrit How do you do it? You do the Google Drive.

Richard I do the Google Drive.

Gerrit Yeah. I, I, I, Richard hasn't even given me access to the Google Drive. He's afraid I'll just start giving it away to everybody.

Richard I'm already not compensated for this. I don't want to be negative $10.

Gerrit So no joke, I paid $10 a month because I have to have access to it when I'm on the go, right? And you know, so like, hey, what episode or, you know, we have technical issues all the time. I mean, we have issues all the time. Technical issues are some of those issues where, you know, things don't upload properly or there's some kind of compression that's wrong. Let me use other big words that make it seem like we know, have any idea what we're doing or talking about.

Richard compression. Well done.

Gerrit Oh, yeah, there was a big problem with the limiter on the... Yeah, it's always compression. Yeah, it's all ball bearings nowadays.

Richard Yeah, you sound like Fletch, right?

Gerrit Exactly. It's all ball bearings nowadays. But legitimately, in order to have instant access to it on my phone, I have subscribed. So when we list our number of premium subscribers, the reality is I'm one of them. So we're like, oh, man, we got another person in Spanish Fork to sign up. Well, so we have had some people ask about the premium content. We've explained it a few times, but we have a turnover. I assume we have massive turnover in our listenership.

Richard Oh, yeah. No, it's like a converges call center in here. Just turn over everywhere.

Gerrit It's like, have you thought about solar panels? And then click, that's what our voices are to people. Right now, people are, they're not listening anymore. Like, I thought this was a church history thing. Don't worry, it will be. So obviously, the podcast isn't free to do. It's a considerable cost to even the software we're using now to record it is a considerable cost. And we had people wanting to donate to the podcast. And I just, I didn't want them to just donate for nothing. I mean, obviously, they were donating to help the podcast, but also to me, it, you know, I assumed that basically what I produced was worth nothing.

Richard And so, yeah, we're in agreement on that.

Gerrit Yeah. So we, so I thought, well, what if we create some other content that those who want to donate to help keep the podcast alive, they, they could sign up for premium content and then they're donating, but then they also get something for it. That was the idea behind it. But then, of course, we, we decided to just give it away to every missionary who's ever thought about going on a mission. We, we are well aware that there are some senior missionaries listening who are abusing the system, who are like making sure that they're a service missionary for like one weekend a month at a cannery somewhere just so they could get the premium content. And if that's what it takes for you to serve with the kingdom of God, fine.

Richard Hey, you know what? Good.

Gerrit We'll do it. We'll, we'll, we'll bite the bullet on that. But speaking of donations, on our last episode, we put out the call for the Sweetwater Rescue and Richard, I'll let you talk about that.

Richard It's just, I gotta say, it is just, it's the most ridiculous thing ever. You know, Garry, we, this is, this is fun. You and I are buddies and even if no one was listening, we would just still be saying these exact things to each other anyway.

Gerrit Legitimately, for 20 minutes before I hit record, we were literally talking about church and religion stuff and laughing and making fun of things.

Richard Right. Well, so we, you know, Gerrit has been incredibly kind to throw, you know, his reputation and name and podcast behind supporting the Sweetwater Rescue where we help folks that are far away from a temple be able to get to a temple. And Gerrit told a beautiful story about the saints and those folks that went out to bring them in off the plains. And that's how we came up with the name for the organization was that. And we talked about it and we mentioned it and we asked for folks if they would like to donate, especially folks that served in Argentina. The toughest thing in anything is to get somebody to care about something. And in the church, we have this ridiculous thing where we care far more about people in Honduras and Argentina and Belize because we serve missions there than any other American might.

Richard And so, within the first two days, we raised close to $15,000 in donations. Some of the donations were $350. Some of them were more than that. A lot of them were $10 and $25. And there was an opportunity to leave comments and some of you left comments and it was just the most overwhelming thing I've ever experienced.

Gerrit And honestly, thank you so much to our listeners. I mean, how do you know that you have people that are like-minded and who are part of the kingdom of God and put that kingdom of God first? Well, you put out a call like that and within days, people are going up. And look, Richard's got it broken down. I mean, each of these donations is roughly $300, $350 to get someone to the temple who's never been before or who went when they were 20 and they're now 60. And they haven't been able to go back because it costs too much to go back. And so those of you who donated, thank you so much. Please continue to, if you feel impressed to do so, we, you know, Richard's going to take as many people to that temple as he can fit.

Richard Look, here's the thing. So this is the thing that's the most beautiful to me about this. And I promise I'm going to shut up and we're going to get on to the thing here. And I promise I'm not going to talk about it every time. And I mean, but I actually don't promise that. But so, Gary, you've talked about, we had like a 13-parter on zion, right? It was a five-parter. It was, it was, Moroni was longer because that was a five-parter plus an addendum. But you talk about kind of this idea. So just the beautiful concept of this to me, I don't know these people in Argentina. You don't know these people in Argentina. You don't know me. And you know what? We're all going to pitch in and figure a way to make it happen. It's just, it's just the most beautiful, it's just the most beautiful thing, one of the most beautiful aspects of the gospel, that we find these things to be incredibly important, and people that we don't know, we love them immediately. And anyway, it's just so very, very kind.

Gerrit In the aftermath of our prophet talking about just how essential temple ordinances are and how we need the temple and the power that comes from the temple in our lives, it is a demonstration of people's faith that they not only know that the temple matters for them, but they desperately want it to matter for everyone else. And that, I mean, it's a great thing to be a Latter Day Saint. It really is. It is a great thing to be a part of a community that is worldwide. And sure, not all of us are great, and all of us are sinners, but that we at least have this sense that there is a brotherhood and a sisterhood of mankind, and not just in the lyrical sense, but that we actually are all children of heavenly parents.

Gerrit I mean, it is a beautiful thing. So thank you, everybody. Thank you for those who saw fit to help. And Richard's gonna keep prepping that to get as many people as he can. He's working with the mission president there and the district president's trying to get as many people as they can from these far off places to a temple. So we can...

Richard What a perfect transition now, Gerrit. Yeah, to the Standard of Truth Tour that's coming up next year.

Gerrit Well, that...

Richard What's that? Oh, my goodness. The Kirtland Temple and the Nauvoo Temple are part of those tours. What a perfect segue to take something that's special and sacred and make it cheap and tawdry.

Gerrit Yeah. Well, that's what we do. Yeah. transitioning away from selflessly helping other people. We have had a considerable number of people email asking about our tours for next year. And Richard just fell out of his chair again.

Richard I did. The whole thing is ridiculous. I'm so sorry. What a terrible transition.

Gerrit I need to get you a seatbelt for your computer chair so that when you start laughing, the chair would just go with you.

Richard Well, so Gerrit, I'm glad you asked. You said when the dates are. I believe that's what I heard.

Gerrit I don't recall saying that. We had a lot of people ask when it was and how they could sign up. I mean, I probably had five, 10 people just this last week say, oh, when are the tours? What are they?

Richard So, we have, first of all, the Smith family, they were quick to sign up, and they're already all in. We're very excited to see them. It's the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. There's a lot of Smiths, but they know who they are, and we love them.

Gerrit They're wonderful. No, no, she knows, she knows who she is. Yep. She's gonna post on our WhatsApp as soon as she hears this.

Richard Yeah, and first of all, any children of Sarah or any others that haven't been mentioned yet also, we hope to see you potentially on the tour as well.

Gerrit It is a real problem because we've created rivalry among your children.

Richard It's very funny. So, Gerrit, the first tour is going to be June 22nd through June 28th. And so that will be Missouri and it will be Nauvoo, and it will be Springfield, and then beautiful, beautiful East St. Louis.

Gerrit Everyone's always wanted to be there.

Richard So that'll be fun. We start with a lot of the, obviously all the sites in Missouri and then there's a lot of history there. And then Nauvoo, which is beautiful, and then Carthage, which is obviously tragic.

Gerrit And hopefully we'll be able to go to that Hons Mill Massacre site again, which...

Richard That ended up being everybody's favorite thing, because most folks aren't able to necessarily go there. There isn't really much of a site there. We had the greatest bus driver ever. She's like, yeah, I can do that thing in reverse. A lot of bus drivers don't want to go down there. We'll specifically request her again. She was lovely. And then in Springfield with, again, the greatest anti-Mormon president of the United States that has ever been. So...

Gerrit Well, the greatest president who happened to also be an anti-Mormon. I mean...

Richard Sure. There were more pres... I've said this wrong every time. There are presidents that were more anti, but he was the best president that was also anti.

Gerrit Well, I mean, James...

Richard That's how we like to end the tour.

Gerrit James Buchanan exists. Notice, we're not going to James Buchanan's house. Although, you know what? We should... I mean, he was in Pennsylvania, right? We could probably figure out where that was.

Richard Spoiler alert, Gerrit. So the next tour then is August 3rd through August 9th. And it's... We start off in beautiful, balmy Baltimore, Maryland. And we do a little American history, a little Gettysburg action. Then head up to Scranton, where I provide a private office tour for those that want it. And then off to the Church restoration Sites, Palmyra, Fayette, Kirtland. And obviously now, James Buchanan's house. I'm kidding about James Buchanan's house.

Gerrit No, I'm excited about that. Oh, great. Well, so yeah, so that'll be fun. So if we've had several people, quite a few people actually sign up for both those tours so far. So if you're looking for an experience going to these church history, sacred sites, we would love to have you. It really is the greatest thing to have listeners with us. It's fun the entire time because every inside joke, everybody knows.

Richard Getting aside, the best part about the show is the Litners to the show. They're funny and they're wonderful and it becomes just an absolute riot on the bus and in these sites. So it looks like James Buchanan's house is just a hop, skip and a jump away from Harrisburg. Let's see if we can make that happen.

Gerrit You know what? We drive right by Harrisburg.

Richard Yeah, I really think we should go. You know what?

Gerrit Let's do a drive by BYU's house and then I don't know what. Talk about what a terrible present he was outside.

Richard For sure. I'm going to poorly read a couple of emails here and then I'm going to spend the rest of the time trying to figure out how we can get the itinerary to go through James Buchanan's house, not around it or through it.

Gerrit Just we're going to drive the bus through his house?

Richard Yeah, it will be like speed three.

Gerrit Brick and Tug would have been okay with that. I'm sure.

Richard So, Gerrit, we did receive a text. They did have a question. We're not going to answer it because we only answer questions through email. Now, we have answered questions through text before, but it's a new policy. We don't do it anymore.

Gerrit We just introduced it when we received this text.

Richard So, this comes from a friend of the show, Damian. Dear Standard of Truth Podcast, I no longer write emails because frankly, I have lost confidence in Richard's ability to read them correctly. That is funny. He goes on to ask a very good question that would make for an excellent episode. Damian, we'd love to see that in email form and we'd love to be able to answer it then.

Gerrit If you could fill out the proper form and take it to the proper window in triplicate and maybe have a... If you could maybe have someone notarize it so that we know that it's actually you asking the question, then we can proceed from there.

Richard That's right. Well, so we do have an email. This comes to us from John. education Week just wrapped up, Gerrit.

Gerrit Yes, it did.

Richard You presented it at education Week.

Gerrit Yes, I usually don't present at education Week, but this year I did.

Richard Your topic was... It was polygamy this year? What was the...

Gerrit No, it was on Brigham Young and the Brigham Young journals that were recently published. And specifically, I was speaking with a group of people on several different days, but on my day, I was talking about the difficulties Brigham Young faced after Joseph was murdered before the Saints are driven out of the country. So the aftermath, the succession crisis, the anti-Mormon mobs, the murders that are going on, and then actually being expelled from the country.

Richard And so the questions you received after, they were all about that specific topic?

Gerrit Yeah, they were all like, so when you said that they realized that they were going to have to get outside of the jurisdiction of the United States, did they think that that included the Indian territory that was as yet unorganized? No, I didn't get any of those questions.

Richard Interesting. So this email is very good that way, the setup from John. I was so excited to witness Gerrit's presentation on Brigham Young at BYU education Week. I was surprised that Richard was not there to support, but I'm sure he was occupied lecturing on big business somewhere. I had brought a special four-pack of chaff sticks to give to him as a thoughtful gift. That's very nice.

Gerrit That is hilarious.

Richard My arm and hand are still recovering from the event where my hand...

Gerrit And your ego will never recover from that. I mean that...

Richard Oh, I've given that up.

Gerrit Yeah, your ego... Once you get your hand trapped in a rental car seat, trying to get a chapstick...

Richard For 45 minutes.

Gerrit Well, whatever riz you thought you had...

Richard Yeah, and that's hilarious. Right. Whatever riz I thought I had. You know, it's funny, I was talking to my wife about something because I had to present on a thing at church and it was a more serious topic. And she's like, how are you going to do that? And I said, I have the ability to, you know, at work, I'm, you know, I can be professional. She's like, I have been married to you for 23 years and I have never seen it. I'm like, okay, well, fair enough, actually.

Gerrit So she doesn't actually believe you could be professional.

Richard No, no. With my potential graduation coming up and with Oklahoma State being the Cowboys, I have adopted a full Cowboy attire, where I only wear shirts with pearl snap buttons.

Gerrit We actually had a whole group of people sitting in the front row of the education Week who said, I'm very disappointed that we didn't see Richard with his Cowboy hat. Here's what they said. That was the first thing they said to me.

Richard Yeah. So I fully embraced the Cowboy lifestyle. And by the way, my father-in-law, he agreed with the all hat, no cattle, very upset that I didn't have a better understanding of buttermilk, how it's processed and produced. He was literally talking to my wife about it today.

Gerrit Did he have a better understanding of why it tastes terrible? Did he understand that?

Richard No, he's just, just every day I disappointed more and more. He's such a good guy. I'm, Cliff, I'm going to get to the bottom of it. I'm going to figure out buttermilk. Back to the email. And I was crushed. He wasn't there. I had hoped to discuss the similarities of our names and how we were teased growing up. Gerrit did not disappoint. He gave a stirring lecture on Brigham Young, his absolute loyalty to Joseph Smith and Brother Brigham's inspired leadership of the Saints during the last Nauvoo years. It brought me close to tears, thankfully, nothing about polygamy. What happened next did bring a few tears. Gerrit opened it up for questions. And his sweet sister asked, Hey, how about polygamy? Then did all the brother in practice polygamy or just some? And finally, could you provide a comprehensive list of sources discussing polygamy? I found this extremely entertaining. You handled it with kindness and aplomb.

Richard But I, as a premium subscriber, knew how you really felt. Keep up the great work, John. I've been to... I'm sorry I wasn't able to come.

Gerrit I was frankly never even considered coming. He didn't even say, Hey, what are you presenting? I said, I'm going to go present an education week. And he said, That's nice. I've got things to do.

Richard I didn't even think I said, That's nice.

Gerrit I've got stuff to do.

Richard I think you texted it to me. I didn't respond.

Gerrit Yeah. I was left on read.

Richard It's my... I have attended. So I do love, I do actually love coming to things where you're speaking. I think you are going to be doing a presentation at Damien's Steak in the next couple of months. And I want to come to... I love it every time. Like I feel the spirit every time. I learn stuff every time. It's great. It's really, really great. But my favorite thing is you never talk about polygamy. And then 89% of the questions are about polygamy. And by 89, I mean 100%.

Gerrit Yeah. And 110% because those are the ones who weren't even asked.

Richard They give full effort. It makes me laugh every time. And you handle it like a champ and it's great. But anyway, it's very funny.

Gerrit Thank you, John. It was good to meet John at the event.

Richard That was very good. So this next email comes to us from Dave. Dave from Pennsylvania. Deacons in the Doctrine and Covenants. occasionally, as a young men's leader, I have had a poorly prepared lesson and decided to just do some training for the Doctrine and Covenants. First of all, Dave, we've all been there, Dave. My gosh, we've all been there.

Gerrit I would like to know what the difference is between a poorly prepared young men's lesson and an expertly prepared young men's lesson.

Richard In our ward, the better prepared ones are usually the young men when they're doing the lesson. Our young men's leaders are great. I'm just teasing. None of them are listening. But if they were...

Gerrit Well, that would be an act of preparation if they were.

Richard Yes. Chandler, you're killing it. But seriously, their lessons actually are really, really great. But I know I've been in that spot where I'm like, hey, you know what? Let's just turn to D&C 20. Let's just talk about it. Let's go through it. Anyway, here he says, in every, I just had a stroke. We're going to cut this out.

Gerrit No, there's no possible way we're going to cut it out.

Richard That's the best part. We have found, so the word invariable apparently is a word that when I see it, many stroke, so invariable. Invariably, we turn to section 20 and start reading the duties of Priesthood offices. There's some great stuff in there about elders, priests, and at least two whole verses of the teacher's duties. We're apparently underutilizing the teacher's quorum. But then, oops, we get to the deacons and there's nothing. Definitely not a verse that says the deacons job is to pass the sacrament and collect fast offerings and empty the trash after church. You also don't have set up chairs before church, depending on where you have church, I guess. This is sometimes awkward. But before it happens again, I need to ask, when did deacons start passing the sacrament and doing these other jobs? Also, when did the deacons start becoming approximately 12 years old? Were any early church members even ordained as deacons? As today, most adult converts go straight to priests.

Richard Thanks as always for the historical insights and any other tidbits that can make Aaronic Priesthood lessons better for everyone.

Gerrit Well, first of all, I'd like to say, Mitchell, is that who was there?

Richard No, this is Dave from Pennsylvania.

Gerrit Dave.

Richard Oh, sorry, Dave. Yeah. And I assume he's in the Pittsburgh Second War.

Gerrit Well, we know he's in the oldest war that's ever existed. The war that dates back to Ottoman Empire times. But I will state that if he thinks anything I'm about to share is going to help make his lessons more interesting to deacons, he has woefully overestimated what this podcast can do. I don't know that the deciding factor in deacons listening is whether or not they get a better historical tidbit, but we'll do our best. But let's, we have one more e-mail, I think, on a related topic.

Richard Okay, so read them both.

Gerrit Yeah.

Richard So this one comes from Mitchell. Well, first of all, he gets our names spelled correctly. So you know what, Mitchell, that's...

Gerrit Yeah.

Richard So this one comes from Mitchell. Well, first of all, he gets our names spelled correctly. So you know what, Mitchell, that's...

Gerrit Well, that's the reason why we're reading your e-mail, Mitchell. That's...

Richard we have an enormous ego. When you spell our name right. I first heard of your podcast when Dr. Dirkmaat was on the Follow Him podcast. I've always been a bit of a church history nerd and thoroughly enjoy your podcast. After a month or so of listening, I took the plunge and paid for the premium content. That's the best way to get your e-mail read.

Gerrit Yeah, it is. It is true.

Richard That's right. And have not been disappointed. Well, that's actually shocking, Mitchell. One topic you covered really hit home, the podcast on prosperity theology. Actually, that's interesting, Gerrit. The most popular episode is the martyrdom episodes. Those are like hundreds of thousands of like so many listens on those. And the second most is the prosperity theology. It is interesting how that struck a chord with so many folks. Much like the listener whose email prompted the discussion, I was raised in the church thinking that the blessings you want come when you are obedient, and when bad things happen, it is because you have sinned. My mission president was one of those that preached that if you were not baptizing, it was because you were not working hard enough. I assume, Gerrit, that this hits home for you in Wisconsin, where you must have been a vile sinner.

Gerrit Well, I mean, literally everyone who is in Wisconsin must have been a sinner. I mean, because no one was being baptized.

Richard Didn't have enough faith or had some transgression for which they had not repented. Dog, dog, got it. Okay. Since I served in what was then the Spain Sevilla, Sevilla mission.

Gerrit Your son is coming across the table at you when he gets back with that pronunciation. Yeah.

Richard Yeah. Now the Malaga mission? I thought it was Madrid, North. I don't know. I'm very sorry, Mitchell. Baptisms were rare. First of all, my uncle served in Spain. My cousin served in Spain. That can be a tough mission. With immigration now though, it's actually been much better. But baptisms were rare. I struggled with this most of my life. And in 2017, over a period of nine months, my wife died of cancer. Four months later, I was diagnosed with the same cancer. And while I was having a bone marrow transplant, my father died unexpectedly. Although I have always been a faithful member of the church, I thought I was being punished. I have never been the ward's best home teacher or ministering brother, and there have been times when I did not accept callings due to problems with depression. I was convinced these were the reasons all these things happened.

Gerrit Man, sorry. Just right there already, I mean, I am sorry that that is the feeling that you have had. We don't believe in a god that strikes people down with cancer to teach someone a lesson, because they didn't do a good enough job home teaching. I am horribly sorry to hear about your wife passing away, Mitchell. And God bless you for your faithfulness in the faiths of that and your own difficulties too. But I think the email goes on. I'll let Richard keep going. Sorry.

Richard It does. My wife was much wiser than I, and could always talk me off the ledge and convince me that my thinking was incorrect. With her gone, my tempering influence was gone, and my mind tended to go to the things always happened for a reason type of thinking. Anyway, thank you for your podcast and your wise words. Now to my question. We often hear that in taking the sacrament, we are renewing our covenants. My understanding is that this has not always been the teaching concerning the sacrament, and that this teaching began in the mid-20th century. Also, I understand that the way the sacrament has been administered has changed over time and once became fairly regimented with deacons required to wear ironed white shirts, black bow ties, hold the tray with the right hand, and hold the left hand behind their back. None of this influences my testimony or has had any impact on the truthfulness of the church.

Richard I just find it interesting. Thanks for all you do. And by the way, although I was born and raised in Utah, I live in Central Iowa and our temple has been, and our temple has been your favorite, the Winter Quarters Temple. It is three hours away and we are very excited to be getting a temple in Des Moines. Keep up the good work. Thank you so much, Mitchell.

Gerrit Well, so both Mitchell and our Pennsylvania friend, at least there's similar questions about the duties of deacons, so I thought we'd talk about that. Maybe first, just to comment on the whole idea of the gospel of prosperity. It is a crippling, crippling, crippling thing to have horrible things happen to you in your life, to lose loved ones. I mean, comparing my inability to get anyone to listen in Wisconsin to the shattering reality of having someone you love pass away and to have that empty chair sitting in the room that they once sat in. And there are all kinds of struggles that we have. People struggle in all kinds of different ways. obviously, when we've lost loved ones, that's the most difficult struggle.

Gerrit And it is something that I think is central to Christian theology. It's central to what Jesus taught. From the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, where the poor beggar Lazarus dies with those sores, he doesn't suddenly become rich, he doesn't suddenly find a family, he lives and suffers and dies, to Jesus telling his apostles that in the world they are going to have tribulation. What makes the gospel of Jesus Christ unique is an understanding that in this life, it is going to be a life at times filled with joy. And look, obviously, the number of people who email in and think that I get too much joy out of life suggests that I'm far too happy at times when we're doing these podcasts.

Gerrit But I'm not happy because everything's worked out in my life the way I've wanted it to. I've had horrible things happen to me nowhere near what many people have had happen to them. There's no way to compare our different scars and say, your scar is so much worse than mine or mine is so much better than yours. But the great beauty of the Gospel is to know that however horrible these things are, they will eventually because of the atonement of Jesus Christ, somehow inexplicably be made up to us. And we will somehow have things made right in the end. I know that because we believe that we receive blessings for our righteous living, that we struggle at times because we want to call our shot on the blessings we receive.

Gerrit You know, I don't really care a whole heck of a lot if, you know, I'm always, you know, in perfect health, if in fact the people I love most aren't. You know, I don't want my blessing that I get from obeying the Word of Wisdom to be that I live a long and healthy life if it means I, you know, lose my wife. Um, something that I was confronted with, with Angie's cancer diagnosis. And, you know, she's still working through that. And we're grateful for, you know, how good things have been. But that's the most frustrating aspect of knowing that our father gives blessings for righteous living. But not being able to dictate what those things should be. And in the absence of being able to say, if I do X, then God, you're going to do Y, right?

Gerrit We then, we sometimes fall back on the, on the other side. If I had been a little bit more faithful, if only I had gone to the temple more, why didn't I pray more? Now, I think that regret is at times in a minimal way useful because it reminds us of the temporary nature of this life. As Joseph Smith taught, that how could we be unfaithful when we see people around us dying all the time? We realize how close we are to the other side of the veil. How could we possibly slacken our hand knowing that? I mean, I'm obviously paraphrasing them. I don't have them in front of me. So in that regard, realizing just how temporary the things of this life are, is an important aspect to becoming fully committed to the kingdom of God.

Gerrit And there are lots of things that sometimes trigger that in us, but sometimes it is the death of people that we love to realize, hey, my brother had grand, grand, grand plans of what he was going to do with his life and what his life was going to be and where he was going to travel when he retired 30 years from now. And those things didn't happen. But he had done the things that mattered most. He had kept his covenants. He had received his endowment. He had been sealed in the temple. And so in the next life, I think those are the things that are going to really matter to us. I know that that is a crushing feeling to think if only I did something different. It reminds me of a talk that was given by President Monson years ago after that horrific tragedy that took place in Salt Lake where several children in a family all died because they were playing hide and seek in the hid in a trunk.

Gerrit And if you think about that, what the parents went through, how many times they must have said, if only I would have gone outside five minutes faster, ten minutes sooner, right? If only I would have known, why didn't I go look for them sooner? And one of the things that President Monson said was, if you could eliminate something from your vocabulary, it's the phrase, if only. Again, I'm paraphrasing. I don't have this up in front of me, but he said, it is counterproductive. I know that that is my biggest difficulty when I have something horrible happen to me or my family. All I can think about is, you idiot. If you would have just done X, then maybe that wouldn't have happened. And so, I cannot empathize with you completely, Mitchell, because I have not gone through the horrific loss that you went through.

Gerrit But I can tell you how grateful I am for your perseverance through both mental health difficulties and traumas, through the physical traumas of having lost your wife and then going through your own difficulties. I just, I want you to know that I absolutely believe that your wife is going to be resurrected, that she is going to live again, and that you, because you are sealed to her, are going to be with her. And that this time that you're apart is going to seem like nothing in the grand scheme of the trillions upon trillions upon trillions of years that you'll be forever together. As it relates to the question that you asked, you brought up that there seems to be some changing that took place with what deacons did and how they did it.

Gerrit And then that's related to our Pennsylvania listener's question, the same thing about deacons. Now, he is, of course, looking for some possible way to get an 11-year-old to pay attention to him, without, I'm assuming, without trying to play Fortnite with them literally at church.

Richard May I recommend Chick-fil-A? Yeah, I usually pick it up eight or nine o'clock, cook it in the morning, and that helps a lot. So that's a free tip. Well, by free tip, I mean, that'll cost you 90 bucks.

Gerrit You take Chick-fil-A to church?

Richard Oh, gosh, yeah. When I have the lesson, you better believe it.

Gerrit Right. And that way everyone knows, so you deliberately do Chick-fil-A, so that no one can think that you violated the Sabbath because they don't sell it on the Sabbath. You know what? That's very...

Richard That's exactly, actually, why I do it. And I will pay $90 for the rest of time to help eat up about 15 minutes of my lesson time, pun intended.

Gerrit Nice. Well, yeah. Eat up slash, you know, eat more chicken. Yeah. I don't know that the founders of Chick-fil-A are huge fans of the Latter-day Saint movement, but, you know, we respect their willingness to keep the Sabbath holy.

Richard We do. It's actually the greatest high school job, because, you know, you don't have to have the argument with your kid.

Gerrit My son worked at Chick-fil-A.

Richard My son, Kermin, worked at Chick-fil-A.

Gerrit Even months after he had stopped working there, he still said, My pleasure. Every time I said, I said, Thank you. I was rarely telling him, Thank you, because he was a teenager, which meant he was almost never doing anything for me. Really, I should have just started adopting my pleasure, my pleasure. I should have just kept saying, My pleasure to him. But speaking of youth and deacons, it is an interesting aspect. I would say probably one of the least understood aspects of this period of church history is exactly how our different priesthood offices roll out. I know that we've spent time on this podcast before talking about how the missionary age, for instance, changed, that you had missionaries that were going earlier, and then later, and then even later than that, and then back down to earlier. Over the course of the 20th century, you know, what's really interesting is that as much of a change as there has been for, for in the various administration of these offices, the age in which someone becomes a deacon is the least changing office.

Gerrit So that the age at which they become a deacon in the 20th century is set at 12 in 1908. Okay, so if you're wondering, when did it say deacons are going to become deacons when they're 12, it's in 1908. Even in 1908, it's not a generalized practice in the sense that every single deacon who turns 12 is made, every single boy's turn 12 is made a deacon. But it remains that all throughout the remainder of the 20th century. Now of course, as I already intimated with Richard's Chick-fil-A story, now with more recent changes, kids are ordained when they're headed into turning 12. So at the beginning of the year, which I'm not in a bishopric, but I can only assume that January is a dumpster fire for you guys, is it?

Richard Oh, oh my gosh, it is. First of all, I am a lowly, weepy counselor. And so my burden is light. But our bishop, my goodness, it is all-consuming.

Gerrit Is January like a tsunami for him because of the?

Richard Yeah, yeah, we try it a bunch of different ways. And part of the thing that's tough is that in some wards, you have some wards with just a handful of youth, and it's great. But when you have a hundred plus youth, it is just, it is all-consuming. It is the opposite of the light that Joseph sees in the Sacred Grove, where it was fire, but nothing was consumed. This is fire and everything is consumed.

Gerrit Yes, we recently talked about that on our Joseph Smith and the restoration Premium podcast. So if you needed an incentive to listen to that, or if you're a missionary, we talked about that, the consuming nature. So all throughout the 20th century, the age for deacons is actually the most stable priesthood office. And so you might be thinking, well, wait a minute, it's the most stable? Yeah, because up until 1954, you had to be 15 to be a teacher, at least in the 20th century. So I'm going to go back and talk about the 19th century a minute, but I just want to talk about the fact that the changing ages for these priesthood offices is something that is kind of moving around. Now, are you even ready for me to tell you about priests? Okay. In 1908, you had to be 18 to be a priest.

Gerrit In 1954, well, so in 1925, they changed that to 17. Okay, so now you could be a 17 year old priest. In 1954, they changed it to 16 to be a priest. And of course, then it's basically what it is now, except now you get ordained when you're heading into your 16th year. One of my favorite...

Richard Well, so go ahead. No.

Gerrit No, no. I want to hear your favorite.

Richard Well, so one of my favorite stories from my mission was we had a recent convert, and they were baptized, and they were confirmed and received the Holy Ghost. And then they were... I believe it was the week later that they received the Aaronic Priesthood, and they were ordained to the office of a priest. But that announcement was made in sacrament meeting that Brother So-and-so, the recent conference... He was like 75, by the way. He was an older gentleman. And the counselor said that we'd like to just make everyone aware that Brother So-and-so has also received the Aaronic Priesthood and ordained to the office of a deacon. So he sits down, they have the opening song, the opening hymn, he stands back up. I've been informed that he has been advanced to the office of a priest. The fastest advancement in church history, from deacon to priest, in the course of essentially the Spirit of God.

Gerrit Was the song, If You Could Hide a Co-op? What was pulling him along?

Richard It's always, Oh, My Father, and If You Could Hide a Co-op, and Praise of the Man. Those are the three.

Gerrit Well, so with the office of elder in the Melchizedek Priesthood, that thing has bounced around like you wouldn't believe. I mean it. In 1908, you had to be 21 to become an elder. Okay. By 1925, you had to be 20 to become an elder. 1934, 19 to become an elder. Okay. I see this. You see the trajectory, right? Yeah. 21, 20, 19, 1953, 20 to be an elder. So with all of the others, the age range just started moving down. With a bunch of 19-year-olds, they're like, you know what? Actually, you need to be 20. Then it goes back up.

Richard So I remember one time, and I would not recommend this. This was the answer was very smug and not in any way helpful. Was it for me? No, no, no. I was distracting on my mission, knocked on a gentleman's door, and he said, I don't need to hear anything from you. I'm already a deacon. I'm a deacon at my church. My companion said, interesting, I was a deacon when I was 12. Which was, again, less effective, but I couldn't help myself, but the guffaw at that line.

Gerrit You know, but that actually kind of gets to the heart of some of these questions is the term deacon is a Christian term because it's in the Bible. And many Christian churches employ the office of a deacon as a fairly high office in the church. And so whenever you say the word deacon to anyone who's not a Latter-day Saint, they don't think of an 11-year-old who just caught a Charmander on Pokemon Go.

Richard They do not.

Gerrit They don't. I mean, I don't even know if kids play Pokemon Go anymore, but I'm told some still do. Could you get our crack research staff on that?

Richard You know what? Yeah, I'm going to get the crack research staff on it now. It's a little later tonight, so we'll probably only have 20 to 25 people, but I'll get them on it.

Gerrit Okay. Well, so it goes back up to 20. The Office of Elder goes back up to 20 years old in 1953, and then in 1960 is dropped back down to 19, and then in 1970 dropped back down to 18. So, you can see that those, the ages for those offices have bounced around quite a bit. In the early church, as this brother comments, both of them are saying, hey, there's not a whole lot in the scriptures about what deacons are supposed to do. And in the absence of that, how do we get where we're at? Well, it's true that the first, that though Doctrine and Covenants section 20 references, you know, this, and section 107 references the deacons quorum. That's from 1831. You know, and again, verily, I say to you, the duty of the president over the office of a deacon is to preside over the 12 deacons.

Gerrit Okay, great. I'm supposed to preside over them. Now, what are they supposed to do? To set in council with them and to teach them their duty, edifying one another as it is given according to the covenants. Now, of course, the covenants is a reference to the Articles and Covenants. So you go to the Articles and Covenants to see what it is. And Articles and Covenants, by the way, is Doctrine and Covenants section 20, as we've referenced before. The list of things that they are to do is a collective one. An apostle is an elder and it is calling to baptize and ordain other elders, priests, teachers, and deacons, and to administer the flesh and blood of Christ, according to the scriptures. Well, that's what an apostle can do, all right. It goes on for what the elders can do, the priest can do. But as it gets down there, there's not a whole lot there for deacons.

Gerrit I mean, you do get the idea that an elder, a priest has the ability to take the lead in a meeting, but not if there's an elder present. But as you go further and further down, you get to where it says that a teacher is supposed to be assisted always in his duties by the deacons. Okay, so deacons supposed to help the teachers. But neither teacher nor deacon has the authority to baptize nor administer the sacrament, but are to warn, exhort, expound and teach and invite people to come to Christ. Every elder, priest, teacher or deacon is to be ordained according to the gifts and calling of God unto them by the power of the Holy Ghost, which is the one who ordains them. I was actually thinking an awful lot about priesthood ordination and the conferral of the priesthood, and the ordination to offices in the priesthood today, because my son, Riker, was just today ordained to the, well, conferred, had the Melchizedek Priesthood conferred upon him and was ordained to the office of an elder.

Gerrit And that was awesome. He's my oldest son, it was a great experience. But it also made me think about these emails that we received, like, you know what? This is a good thing that we're going to talk about. But there's not a whole lot in there that says what it is that these deacons should do. And so it's going to be something that's going to happen later. But of course, in the early church, the deacons are not, they are not considered to be children. In fact, in the earliest days of the church, there doesn't seem to be a general understanding that the priesthood is going to be totally democratized among men. There doesn't seem to be an understanding in the early church that every single man who's baptized is going to eventually be an elder. In fact, there almost seems to be the opposite early on, and they didn't have the same delineations.

Gerrit I mean, they would send people who were priests on missions without making them an elder. He's a priest, he can baptize, can't he? All right, well, as long as there's an elder in the neighborhood to give people the gift of the Holy Ghost, we're good. So there actually was some discussion that we actually have records of all of these early church offices except for deacon. We don't have any extant deacons ordination certificates from 1830 when the church is organized. But the fact that a deacon's office is explained and that the duties are listed off, suggests that there likely are people that are ordained to being a deacon. And then of course by 1831, there are deacons. We know they're deacons, they're listed as deacons. But of course, they're all men. Now this isn't fair. I'm going to ask Richard a question for which, I like to ask Richard unfair questions.

Gerrit It's my favorite thing to do. He likes to mock me for my poor education week presentations that he couldn't care less to come to. And I like to ask him questions that he couldn't possibly know the answer to because I didn't prep him for it at all. But what do you think is the single greatest factor in the democratization, meaning everybody getting the Melchizedek Priesthood and the office of an elder on the male side of the church? What do you think the greatest factor for that is?

Richard The factor of them receiving that.

Gerrit Yeah, yeah. So how do we go from, in 1833, you could easily have a 50-year-old man who is a teacher in the church and he serves in the teacher's quorum, and that's literally his calling and it's literally his, that's the level of priesthood he has. And there's no like push to make him an elder.

Richard Okay. Could I answer this question like a politician would?

Gerrit Yes, yes. But you have to take less time than the question itself is in order to answer it, yeah.

Richard Well, first of all, Gerrit, thank you so much for the question. I'm glad that you asked.

Gerrit See, that's a way to eat up eight seconds right there is thank you for the question.

Richard Thank you for the question. I'm glad you asked. It's one of the things that I think about all the time. What is kind of the prerequisite or the thing that precipitates becoming ordained to a Melchizedek Priesthood holder? And I'd like to answer that by saying that the number of active Pokemon Go users is about 90 million, with 600,000 playing at any given time. And so again, thank you so much for the question. And that is, we're going to get to the bottom of that.

Gerrit So the primary thing that will fuel the democratization, not of Pokemon Go, what that was...

Richard Let me give a real guess. Let me give a real guess. At the Hay Day in 2016, by the way, this is inside, 232 million users. That's nuts. So, boy, I mean, of all of the things, perhaps having served a mission or going on a mission?

Gerrit So, that does cause more people to get it as time goes on, because if you're sending people out on a mission and they're going to a faraway place where there's no other members, you are going to want to have someone who has the ability to ordain priesthood in that area. So, that actually does spur some of it, but it doesn't create the same level of democratization as the next big thing. And that is the temple endowment.

Richard Interesting. You handled that wrong answer very well, by the way.

Gerrit No, it was pretty good. It actually is a contributing factor to more men receiving the Melchizedek Priesthood, because they do start to ordain more people to the Melchizedek Priesthood as they're sending them on missions, so that they can organize branches in the places that they go. So, you know, not a big deal if you're just going to the next town over in New York to preach, because someone else can go over there and organize the branch or give them the gift of the Holy Ghost. But it is kind of a big deal if you're going to, you know, Kalamazoo, Michigan, from Palmyra, and there's not going to be any other members coming by, so you need to have someone who can go who can ordain people to the Melchizedek Priesthood.

Richard So are you saying that they've gone through the temple and that is the, essentially the precursor or the preparation, or to go to the temple?

Gerrit Right. In order to get your, in order to receive your endowment as a man, you had to be ordained to the office of Melchizedek Priesthood.

Richard So that's interesting because that is actually fairly similar to what we have now, right? Your ordained, your son, ordained today. Going through the temple in a week or so.

Gerrit Why was he ordained? So that he can go on a mission and go through the temple. So for sure.

Richard And going through the temple, receiving, being endowed from on high, now going able to serve. Yeah. So, I mean, while it's different, there are some similarities to that for sure.

Gerrit Right. So the church, of course, pushing for all adult members to receive their endowments, it therefore is going to follow that as more and more adult church members receive their endowments and are therefore ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood, following the creation of a temple, well, you're not going to have as many, you know, 45 year old teachers, because he wants to be sealed to his wife. Well, how can he be sealed to his wife? He has to receive the Melchizedek Priesthood in order to go to the temple in order to be sealed to his wife. So one of the things that creates the democratization, meaning that everybody gets the Melchizedek Priesthood among the men of the church, is that men have to have the Melchizedek Priesthood in order to receive their temple covenants.

Gerrit Once there are temples in operation all throughout Utah, what was already happening at a pretty rapid pace becomes the standard that men are not going to stay their entire lives in the church as a priest. They're not going to just get called to a Melchizedek Priesthood position because, oh great, I just got called into a bishopric. Now they've got to make me a high priest or something like that. You know what's very interesting is the community of Christ, the reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, they still kind of follow that very, very early model. You'll hear people all the time say things like, well, I don't know why we don't do ordinations more like they do in the community of Christ. They'll mainly be saying that because what they mean is, well, there are women that are ordained to the priesthood in the reorganized Church. But what they don't realize is that that is not a general ordination.

Gerrit So your average Latter-day Saint in America, when they're thinking about this issue, they think, oh, well, you know, women are ordained to the priesthood in the reorganized Church. So what do they do? They immediately paste on to their Church our Church's culture. So they say, well, in our Church, we just give it to everybody. So I'm sure that that's what they do in their Church. And in fact, even talking to some of the leaders of their Church, they'll say, oh, well, no, I mean, in fact, most members of the congregation don't have priesthood authority. Most women don't. Very few women have priesthood authority. They're only given it when they're called to a special calling. So I mean, I might be taking the analogy a little too far. But the community of Christ doesn't have that endowment trigger that requires men to achieve the Melchizedek Priesthood. But in our Church, they do.

Gerrit And that, I think, has a lot to do with the development of the Aaronic Priesthood as well. So first of all, let's talk for briefly, what do they do then as more and more men are becoming elders? But the scriptures still say you're supposed to have deacons quorums and teachers quorums and priests quorum. There are some younger people that are ordained to those offices of the priesthood. I mean, I think there's even a record of someone being ordained an elder when they were 12, right? But that's not the rule. I mean, it doesn't help a whole lot to give, you know, exceptions to the rule. In general, children were not ordained to the priesthood, although some were 16, 17. They start becoming ordained, but it was not a natural progression through the priesthood. It was not, I became a deacon and then I became a teacher and then it became, often it was, I was ordained a teacher right off the bat.

Gerrit And then apparently someone's saying, if you could hide a co-op, and I became a priest in the next, in the next minute. But it's not a generalized thing. So how did they fill these quorums in every ward? Because the scriptures declared that there needed to be quorums. They actually had this practice of having adult men who were already elders assigned as acting deacons, and acting teachers, and acting priests. Far less so with priests. You do start to get more and more older teenage kids that are ordained to be priests. And so that is not as necessary. So these quorums in Utah are filled primarily by men who are elders, who already have the Melchizedek Priesthood because they've gone through the temple, but they are serving as an acting teacher in the teacher's quorum.

Gerrit That is what much of the 19th century is. And there's actually all kinds of like, well, I mean, I just say it. I mean, this is going to come as a surprise to some people listening, but in the 19th century, there were some people who complained about their callings. It's, you wouldn't think of someone complaining about their calling today. But back in the day, there was actually a considerable, there were a lot of men who pushed back on being already an elder and being assigned to being an acting deacon in the deacon's quorum. You know, now again, today, when you think of that, you're thinking, oh yeah, so they went and put a 55 year old guy with a bunch of 12 year olds. No, there weren't a bunch of 12 year olds because they didn't have the priesthood yet. But it is this odd functionality that's going on.

Gerrit So when you ask the question, when did they start passing the sacrament? It's actually a pretty difficult delineation to make because there are deacons passing the sacrament all throughout the 19th century in the history of the church. But there are adult men who already have the Melchizedek Priesthood, many of them, and they've been assigned to be part of the deacons quorum. When we really start to see the difference is in the early 20th century. Now already, there was already this thought in the latter parts of the 19th century. You know, they're developing things like the young, you know, the mutual improvement association. You have the founding of the primary, the founding of the young men's and young women's organizations, designed to try to help youth be stronger.

Gerrit And so you do start to have this sensibility in the latter half of the 19th century. We need to ordain youth to minor priesthood offices to help train them up in the way that they should go. So a way that this was described in the early 20th century was by David O. McKay, who, you know, said, look, people who are doing ward teaching, what we would call ministering now, but was once home teaching, is really important. Now that's not going to come as a surprise to people that they thought home teaching was important. You know, anyone who's been a member of the church, like, oh really? So they talked about that. But he adds, he says, that does not prevent younger men who hold the Aaronic Priesthood from also being employed. And what he seems to be talking about is this kind of almost treating the Aaronic Priesthood offices as apprenticeship offices, right?

Gerrit So I'm not just going to ordain someone to be an elder. I'm going to ordain them to be a deacon. And as they learn that and then become a teacher, as they're kind of like moving through the grades, they get greater and greater and greater responsibility. Now, I mean, before I go too far afield from the 19th century, I should tell, you know, our Pennsylvania brother that the deacon's office was considered to be an important one, even before they fully understood how they were going to use them in that office. How do you know? Well, if you go to the original Plat of zion, what do you find? Well, the city of zion is laid out in all of its squares, and in the center of that city is 24 temples. And you can see the image of that if you go to thejosephsmithpapers.org.

Gerrit In the center of that is 24 temples. Two of these temples are, several of these temples are assigned for the deacons in zion. And you're thinking, well, what do you mean? Temples that were designed for deacons? You have to remember in 1833, they don't have any idea why temples are being built. But they've laid out the plat of the city of zion and they think temples are essentially particular meeting houses where you have, they even call them school houses, where the various different aspects of the church are going to learn their duties and responsibilities. And so they think that, well, of course, we've got deacons, so there's going to have to be a part of it. And so if you flip the backside of the Plot of zion, it tells you right out that, you know, numbers 16, 17 and 18 of the House of the Lord are for the teachers in zion's messenger to the church.

Gerrit Numbers 13, because each of those temples has a number on them. Numbers 13, 14 and 15 House of the Lord for the deacons in zion. So, this is the idea that is behind these various temples. The names of the temples to be built on the squares are called the House of the Lord for the Presidency of the High and Most and Holy Priesthood after the whole order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of the Son of God upon Mount zion. The city of New Jerusalem, number 7, 8, and 9, the sacred apostolic repository for the use of bishops. I mean, it's all these things that they're creating. The plan is to create these temples. And early on, the office of deacon is, it's certainly important enough that their plan is to create their own special sacred temple, which is to be a school house to them, like the school of the prophets to them. Now, of course, their understanding of temples is going to radically change in the next three years. As Joseph receives the ceiling key, and the full understanding of the purpose of temples is going to come to fruition through revelation.

Gerrit So even from the very beginning, the duties and roles of a deacon are going to change over time. The way that they're seen is going to change over time. It's in the early 20th century that the church is going to continue to make these changes until in 1908. You start to get more of the type of principles that you have today. In 1916, you have the duties of the deacons that are laid out. What's really interesting is in the 19th century, some of the primary duties of the deacons were to prepare the meeting house, to keep the grounds of the meeting house, to clean the meeting house afterwards. If your deacons are saying, I don't want to have to dump the trashes, legitimately, there was a 47-year-old dude in Pennsylvania in 1844 is like, I don't want to have to dump the trashes.

Gerrit Literally the same thing.

Richard I will tell you though, right now, there is a 47-year-old man emptying the trashes in Pennsylvania because the boys may have forgotten during a Sunday school week hypothetically.

Gerrit Is it because their leader perhaps brought them some Chick-fil-A and that's why they didn't remember to do their duty?

Richard Yeah, it wasn't great. One time, I was warming, because there's no cooking in the kitchen, obviously. But I just had chicken that was warming in the oven, and it was on a Sunday next to the young woman's room before I took it over to the young man. It was a cruel thing. I didn't do it on purpose and I've never done it since. But yes, Gerrit, that does contribute to the trash of the 47-year-old man picking up.

Gerrit Right, but the deacons really were considered the ones whose job it was to keep the grounds and even make repairs on the meeting houses. But in 1916, the church publishes a list of what each of the priesthood offices are supposed to do. And this is what it says for deacons. So this is 1916, so 110, 108 years ago, right? Deacons, collect fast offerings, carry messages for the bishop, pass the sacrament. So already there, you have the deacons are to pass the sacrament. Prepare fuel for the widows and the elderly. That was a big deal for deacons early on, is helping the elderly and the poor, especially with firewood. So deacons, you get reports from early deacons all the time, that their primary assignment was to go out and chop firewood, because most people had wood burning stoves. It's how they heated their homes. We have a lot of saints that live in both Iowa and Alberta, and so you're not going to make it through the winter without some wood burning.

Gerrit That's another thing that's actually pretty consistent all the way throughout. Prepare fuel for the widows and the elderly, care for the poor, pass out notices, pump the organ at meetings. We had pipe organs. How are you going to do that? Well, you had to pump the air into that pipe organ. Well, it was a 12-year-old back there, jumping on those bellows to pump air into the pipe organ. Maintain church property, care for church cemeteries, keep order in the meeting houses, maintain meeting house grounds, assist in primary work. So the deacons got to go help with primary. Assist in religion class work, usher, do boy scout work, attend the doors at meetings, and distribute special notices. Those were the things that they were specifically assigned to do in 1916 at their level of their priesthood office.

Gerrit It kind of makes you wonder, what was the teacher's responsibility? Should I read that too, just so you know? Or no? Maybe not?

Richard No, absolutely.

Gerrit Give me Chick-fil-A. Okay. The teachers were to assist in ward teaching, so going out on home teaching, assist with the sacrament, instruct boy scouts, take charge of meetings occasionally, speak and sing at meetings. In 1916, it was a priesthood responsibility for teachers to sing in meetings. We could bring that back, maybe. To collect ward funds, assist in renovating the meeting houses, cut wood for the poor. That's a big deal. Over and over again, you get that. Sing in the choir. So there are two responsibilities of singing that's given to the teachers. Be clerks in branches and serve as officers in the auxiliary and notify priesthood quorums of meetings. So that's a little bit different than we generally get. But you'll notice that they expected your teachers to be musically motivated.

Gerrit Well, there are lots of examples that we could give of this. But one of the main complaints, back to his question about, oh, I know that at one point they had to wear black bow ties and they had to put their arm behind their back. Today's handbook, by the way, specifically says the opposite, specifically says that they shouldn't do things that are overly formal in the sense of they shouldn't have their arm behind their back a certain way when they're doing it. That's not what should be done. But one of the real issues in the early 20th century church, as you were making this transition from the priesthood always being administered by a bunch of 40-year-olds to a bunch of 12-year-olds, is there might be a slight difference in deportment between a 45-year-old man who's a father of four and a 12-year-old who's passing the sacrament.

Gerrit So as you might imagine, there is a flood of complaints about how the deacons act, how the teachers act, how the priests act in relation to the priesthood, in relation to the sacrament. Because, look, you can have the most focused, you know, spot-on 12-year-old who's ever lived. If a butterfly flies by while he's passing the sacrament, he's going to look at that butterfly. All right. I mean, and unless in the 19th century, people were far, far, far better at tucking in their shirts than they are today, my guess is there were some untucked shirts going on. So you have in the improvement era, in 1931, for instance, there's, they published the recommendations of the Granite Stake, where they talk about how you're supposed to pass the sacrament.

Gerrit And there's a ton of rules surrounding it, exactly how they're supposed to do it. For instance, it's suggested that the boys participating wear black bow ties and white or light shirts that they do not, and that they do not wear coats. Think about that. You would almost say the exact opposite today, right? That you'd love it if all your deacons were wearing suit coats. Not that you care one way or the other, but you certainly wouldn't say to the deacons, you wouldn't say, look, I'm not bringing Chick-fil-A again, unless you don't wear your coat when you're passing the sacrament. At least I don't think you'd say that.

Richard I had a stake president in my mission that that was the standard, that all deacons wore suits.

Gerrit I've been in wards like that too, where we had a bishop who required that the deacons had to wear white shirts or they couldn't pass the sacrament. Now, the church specifically says not to do that. But as we know, we are a volunteer organization. And look, even with this requirement that's in this 1931 publication, it says this should be a matter of personal appeal rather than a hard and fast rule. This suggestion, suggestion, suggestion, subjection. Wow. I can't say the word suggestion, Richard. What's wrong with me? Is that? I think I've had a problem. This suggestion is optional, but we are very much in favor of it and urge you to try it out. They also make a special appeal that the deacons should not have used tobacco before they pass.

Richard We have a very similar, we have, we're very strict on at least chewing tobacco.

Gerrit Right. I mean, we need you to not currently be chewing tobacco. Honestly, chewing gum is like, there's all kinds of things that people are saying. The deacons were chewing gum as they passed the sacra. There was, it was very, very big negative on chewing gum. So, I mean, really, it's going to be beginning in 1908, and then pretty codified by 1916, that it's every young man receiving the priesthood at these ages, as a kind of apprenticeship towards getting the Melchizedek Priesthood. You also have to remember that culture changes over time. For whatever reason, the culture that in 1931 said, you know what, you look better if you're all just in white shirts with black bow ties than you would if you're wearing a suit coat.

Gerrit That was their perception of what looked the best when the sacrament was taking place. So, you know, you will find changes in the way the sacrament is administered all throughout the history of the church. I mean, we used to have separate meetings for when the sacrament was administered. I've told the story before, one of my favorite sermons of Brigham Young is, he's in the middle of his sermon and just like right in the middle of the thought, he's like, all right, now let's bless the bread. And he just starts blessing it. And by the way, he isn't right on the words. He doesn't use the exact same words that are in the Doctrine and Covenants. But also he's the prophet. So I think, I mean, the problem is when you're the prophet and you're blessing the sacrament, who do you look to to give you the little do-it-over-again signal? I mean, is he looking over it? I mean, look, if Almond Babbitt would have been there, he for sure would have said do it again. But who's he supposed to look to, right?

Gerrit So over the course of time, these things become more and more codified so that there's not confusion in the church. At one point, Heber J. Grant is actually asked specifically about the fact that, I mean, have you ever wondered this question before, Richard? Like, okay, if you can only have, if you can only pass the sacraments, if you have the priesthood, then is it really okay that, you know, the deacon passes it and then, you know, the eight-year-old girl picks it up and carries it to the other end of the other side, so that everyone on that row can get the sacrament? Have you ever had that thought come to you?

Richard Yeah, I've always assumed that passing it down the row invalidates the sacrament.

Gerrit I've always thought that. I've always hoped. I've always hoped that, you know what? The people on the ends of rows are the only ones who have their covenants renewed. Everyone else, no covenants. Well, so, that actually, you can see why that would be a legitimate question. If you ask the question, well, can only someone administer the sacrament who has the Aaronic Priesthood? Well, they're just handing this tray over here. Does that mean that it's a problem as it goes down the tray? Is that as a woman passes it to a five-year-old boy who doesn't have the priesthood either, who then passes it to his sister? Because it is being passed, but it's not being passed by the deacon. So he actually gets asked this question about this type of passing that goes on by a mission president who, you know, is wondering, you know, very clearly is this okay?

Gerrit I hadn't really thought about this. It's in 1928. So we're still figuring things out. And what Heber J. Grant writes is that there is no rule in the church that it was only priesthood bearers that could carry the sacrament to the congregation after it was blessed. He says that it would in no wise invalidate the ordinance if some worthy young men, sorry, it would no invalidate the ordinance if some worthy young brethren lacking the priesthood performed it in the absence of ordained boys and that he had no objection if it were done. My guess is that the mission president said, hey, and I don't have access to the letter he wrote him, so I don't know. But my guess is he wrote and said, hey, there's no priesthood here at all. How are we supposed to do the sacrament?

Gerrit And Heber J. Grant's response was that, you know, you have to have the priesthood to bless it. You have to have the priesthood to prepare it in that regard. But how it's distributed, you don't need. Now we see that as a priesthood function. And of course it's assigned to the priesthood. You'll also notice though that he does say very specifically that in the absence of ordained boys, other worthy young men could do it, even if they didn't have the priesthood. So the priesthood has always been administered in the sense of being passed to the congregation. It's always been administered by the male members of the church. But people will say things like, well, does that mean that women could someday pass the sacrament? We believe in a church of revelation, and we're dictated, we are directed by revelation, by prophets of God.

Gerrit And just like for a long time in the church, women couldn't be witnesses for baptisms, and then a prophet of God received the revelation that that could change. So people ask that question, I don't have an answer. Frankly, when you believe wholeheartedly in prophetic utterance, when someone says, is there any way that there could be changes in the future to where young women were to pass the sacrament, if there is no special rule surrounding it being passed after it's blessed? You know, those are questions that people hypothesize on. And like I said, because I believe wholeheartedly in a prophet, then I believe that the prophet could receive revelation for whatever it is. The Lord wants his church to understand and how he wants it to be administered. And that those things change over time. As President Nelson has said, the restoration is ongoing.

Gerrit There might be a time when the age of deacons is lowered down to 10-year-olds. It may, as it has multiple times in the past, been raised from 12 to 13. At various different times in the past, the Lord has needed various offices of the priesthood to perform different functions. He's needed it to be a training priesthood, and he's needed it to be one that's being effectively used by middle-aged men with families. And there's no real way to second-guess that, because then you're just doing counterfactual history. Then you're saying, well, why didn't God just immediately set it up with 12-year-olds all the time? Why didn't he just do that in the first place? Wouldn't have been a lot easier if he did that. Well, I don't know that. Think of how radical Latter-day Saint Theology already is.

Gerrit In that so many men were receiving priesthood offices in the early church. It was a standard thing for most men who were active to receive some priesthood office. That's already super radical. Imagine if they were ordaining 12-year-olds to the office of a deacon, which to you sounds like, yeah, because it's a little piddly office that no one cares about. There were Baptist deacons who led their congregations. That's what made you the leader of the congregation. So it's tough when you're trying to second guess a being that knows all things. That knows all of the interactions of all things and exactly how everything works out. So I don't have a great satisfactory answer to the reason why things were done one way and then changed over time.

Gerrit But they have certainly changed, and I have to tell you, they are going to change. It's actually the best part about being a Latter-day Saint. Because we believe that God has a prophet on the earth today, we can have things change and not have an existential crisis on our hands. We can have the prophets say, you know, we used to do this program, we're now going to do this one, without having to say, that's it, Joseph Smith never saw God. And frankly, that's what all of this boils back down to. Maybe we're frustrated because some people are better at their callings than others are. Maybe we're offended by advice or counsel that people have given and maybe with an unkind heart at times. Maybe very well-meaning people have tried to tell us that if only we had lived more righteously, we wouldn't have suffered the way that we had.

Gerrit But in an imperfect world with an imperfect people to work with, you're going to have imperfect members of the church who aren't always reflecting what the Lord Jesus Christ wants them to. And I think that's actually all part of God's plan in ordaining these young men to the office of the priesthood when he does. Because yeah, they're young and they don't know anything yet. But they certainly aren't going to learn more by not serving. It's a crazy thing as my son prepares to go on a mission. My wife keeps saying, well, he doesn't really know about this or he doesn't really know about that. He's really but to this and I just keep saying, look, I can talk to him more about it and it just it won't make any difference. He's going to learn more about serving in the first month of his mission than he's learned his entire life.

Gerrit He's going to learn more about studying the scriptures in the first month of his mission than he's learned his entire life. He's going to learn more about prayer in the first month of his mission than he's learned his entire life. There's some aspect to this mortal experience. That the only way to fully comprehend it is through doing. And so thank you for those questions about the Aaronic Priesthood. Hopefully, everyone's now trying to figure out how they can store Chick-fil-A till the next day for their lessons and bribe these kids the same way that Richard does. But in all seriousness, Mitchell, thank you for your faith, and thank you for maintaining that faith in the face of overwhelming obstacles. Hopefully, those sufferings will be mitigated to some degree.

Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.

Changes to the Aaronic Priesthood

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Luke 16 (the rich man and Lazarus; identified, not cited on air)

John 16:33 (identified, not cited on air)

Joseph Smith, on seeing people die around us (paraphrased on air)

Thomas S. Monson, talk after the deaths of children hiding in a car trunk in Salt Lake (title not named on air)

Church policy on Aaronic Priesthood ages, 1908

Changes to priesthood ages, 1925-1970

D&C 107:85

D&C 20:57-60

David O. McKay, early 20th century, on Aaronic Priesthood holders in ward teaching (source not named on air)

Plat of the City of Zion, 1833 (josephsmithpapers.org)

Church list of priesthood duties, 1916

Improvement Era, 1931, Granite Stake recommendations for passing the sacrament

Heber J. Grant to a mission president, 1928

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What does Richard have for his dissertation defense?

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From 1830 to 1970

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Claim check

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Banter bin

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

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Changes to the Aaronic Priesthood

Creeping toward a defense

Luke 16 (the rich man and Lazarus; identified, not cited on air)

John 16:33 (identified, not cited on air)

Joseph Smith, on seeing people die around us (paraphrased on air)

Thomas S. Monson, talk after the deaths of children hiding in a car trunk in Salt Lake (title not named on air)

Church policy on Aaronic Priesthood ages, 1908

Changes to priesthood ages, 1925-1970

D&C 107:85

D&C 20:57-60

David O. McKay, early 20th century, on Aaronic Priesthood holders in ward teaching (source not named on air)

Plat of the City of Zion, 1833 (josephsmithpapers.org)

Church list of priesthood duties, 1916

Improvement Era, 1931, Granite Stake recommendations for passing the sacrament

Heber J. Grant to a mission president, 1928

What does Richard have for his dissertation defense?

From 1830 to 1970

Money said on air

Percentages said on air

Putting numbers to words

What this episode talks about more than usual

Names said most

Signature words