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S4E36 · George Albert Smith's Apocalyptic Vision
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Standard of Truth · Season 4 · Episode 36 · 1:03:11

George Albert Smith's Apocalyptic Vision

A viral 'vision' of George Albert Smith foretelling nuclear war comes from a recollection written down in 1989, and even its author couldn't find a record of it in the Church Historian's Library.

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So the subject is Supposed Joys of Relation. This is circulating on Facebook and Twitter. Interested in your take seems sketchy to me.
Eric (listener)

Madison thanks the hosts after her aunt left the church, and Gerrit talks about how hard it is when someone who brought you into the gospel walks away. Matt jokes that Gerrit invented 'Johnny Horton' to trick Richard. Then Eric asks about a viral post describing George Albert Smith's 'apocalyptic vision' of a nuclear war. Gerrit shows that it comes from a late reminiscence in BYU's archives, that it reads like Cold War fears, and that its own author couldn't find it in President Smith's journals. He explains that only prophets declare doctrine and recorded revelation, not private recollections. The episode ends with what George Albert Smith actually told the Church in 1950: put your houses in order and love one another.

Who comes upGeorge Albert SmithLeonard ArringtonOrson HydeOrson PrattJohnny Horton
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Richard promises emails and something taking social media by storm.

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Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise, and humor.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I am joined by my friend, Professor Nearing Doctor, Richard LeDuc.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. Thanks for having me back. We here meet for this recording in the shadow of the everlasting hills of Provo, as we are on location at the BYU. This is a unique experience here, as you are set up in a study hall area. It's very nice.
Gerrit Yeah. Well, and that way, everyone can get a pre-release of the episode as they walk by.
Richard Well, so my son comes in the most BYU thing ever. My son comes home from Estonia today, tonight, but school started today, so my wife sent me down here to attend his classes, take copious notes.
Gerrit Are you just pretending that you're him? Are the people that are like Andrew LeDuc reading out the name and you're like, here or yo, is that what you're saying?
Richard I sat next to, so I took American Heritage. By the way, the key to being better at your undergrad is to come back after you already have a master's degree and take the classes all over again.
Gerrit I think that's the key to all undergraduate education.
Richard 100 percent, American Heritage especially, was easier than I anticipated. I sat next to a lovely young lady who was very confused by my face and my age and she attended a high school, where I'm from, that did not exist ever in my life. I've never heard of it before.
Gerrit So she was like, oh, I went to blah, blah high school.
Richard I went to Rocky something high school.
Gerrit You're like, so this is a catfishing thing. Yeah.
Richard She's like, how old are you? I'd rather not talk about it. I will attend three classes. The one, American Heritage, you just sneak in. The BYU Foundations, that's the new class. You got to go in and talk to the professor. He thought it was funny. Now it's going to be Intro to International Politics will be later this afternoon. I'm very excited.
Gerrit So International Politics is what you want most. Are you going to try to mention the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo?
Richard I will raise my hand and when do we get to talk about it?
Gerrit I'm not really Andrew LeDuc, but.
Richard Yes. Well, Gerrit, we have several emails here and something that is taking social media by storm. And we are, if nothing, hip to the kids. We're timely. This first email comes to us from Madison. Subject line is thank you. I wanted to reach out and thank you both for what you've started. A few months ago, my aunt came out to my family and proclaimed that she didn't believe in the Gospel and that Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet. This shook me to my core and I have been very close to this person my whole life. And because of her choice, I started to question my own faith. I then had a choice to make. And thankfully, I had my wonderful husband that introduced me to this podcast. With both of your testimonies of the prophet, I have felt my own testimony grow and can now share my and now myself testify of the prophet. I thank you for sharing your testimonies and your love for the gospel with me.
Gerrit Oh, that's beautiful. First of all, I'm sorry to hear about your aunt, Madison. And that is really when it's the most difficult. I mean, look, if someone you don't know on X posts a picture of them burning their membership record, like it's pretty easy to be like, wow, that person's probably crazy. It's a lot more difficult when it's someone that you really care about, especially if it's someone who you maybe even gained a testimony. Maybe they were an example to you in your life, because then it starts to undermine our own foundations. We start to say, well, well, did I ever really feel the things that I felt? I experienced this poignantly once when a friend of mine from high school apostatized, and he was a stalwart guy. He was my example when I was in high school, and believe me, I needed lots of them. I mean, our high school mascot was a potato, speaking of high school.
Gerrit So you need people around you to buoy you up when your cheerleaders are wearing burlap bags as no joke, they're wearing potato gunny sacks.
Richard Have you seen the Miss Idaho competitions where they would wear?
Gerrit Oh, it's incredible. Yeah.
Richard I will put a link to an image.
Gerrit My dad had a Marilyn Monroe poster that was her in an Idaho potato sack.
Richard Oh, didn't we all?
Gerrit Well, I mean, I feel like everyone in Idaho needed to have that.
Intro Yeah. Sure.
Gerrit And you know, it was Marilyn Monroe. So it's a little risque.
Richard Sure.
Gerrit Yeah. Yeah. But my dad was probably like, this is right, old bride. Yeah.
Richard But she's probably wearing one of those like red potato sacks that are smaller. Not the big russet.
Gerrit No, no, no. It was more form fitting than other potato sacks could be. I mean, usually when you say someone like, oh man, he looks like a sack of potatoes. It's not really a positive.
Richard I know exactly the image you're describing. It's hilarious.
Gerrit Oh, good, good.
Richard It is very popular.
Gerrit If we weren't from Idaho, we wouldn't be doing this podcast if we weren't from Idaho. But anyway, this friend of mine, we went on our missions at the same time. We wrote each other our entire mission, and he had a powerful experience on his mission, and we'd write back and forth and talk about the things we're going on. I mean, he even had some conversions on his, and then it was, you know, years later that he apostatized from the church. And I remember having that conversation with him when he was like, yeah, you know, I just don't really think I've ever really felt the Spirit. My whole life I've never felt it. And I'm sitting here thinking, well, I have like, I don't know, 200 letters from you in which you say you are feeling the Spirit. So I don't know what's going on, but either you didn't know yourself then, or you don't know yourself now, but you're essentially asking me to choose between what you once told me and what you're telling me now.
Gerrit Well, how do I know you're not going to change your mind again five years from now? But I do understand how much it undercuts to have that person. For me, it didn't affect my testimony at that point in my life. But you know, I've asked people on the podcast before, you know, what would happen to your testimony if someone that you really, really, really respect were to apostatize? What if it was your stake president? What if it was a member of your area presidency? Think about what if it was an apostle? Now, it's almost impossible to consider that that could happen. But what say? I won't even name one because I want to be like, oh, he thinks it's so-and-so, it's going to be fine. I don't think that at all. But what I'm saying is what would happen if a member of the Quorum of the Twelve held a press conference and said, you know what, this is all lies.
Gerrit It's all made up. None of this happened. How many people's testimonies do you think that would affect?
Richard Well, it happened quite a bit, didn't it?
Gerrit Well, yes, if we're talking about early church history, it happens all the time, in fact.
Richard And I have to imagine that that would actually be, especially if they're the one that brought you in, maybe you love the way that they would preach.
Gerrit And that's exactly what does happen. So you have someone like, take like, even if it's temporary, someone like Orson Hyde or Orson Pratt, they get disaffected from the church. But you happen to be the person that was baptized by them. I mean, look at, people don't know these people. But Lewis and Anne Abbott are early converts to the church, who are converted because Anne's brother is Thomas Marsh. And Thomas Marsh, I think some people here listening will know, you know, spoiler alert, we haven't gotten to him on Apostles, Apostates and Apothecaries yet, but he doesn't stay faithful to the church the entire time. If we ever do Missouri in a concerted way, you will learn all about Thomas Marsh. And the Abbott's don't apostatize when he does.
Gerrit So here's the person that brought them into the church, her brother that obviously she respects him so much that it's him preaching that got her to believe. And they're all going through the same Missouri persecutions that Thomas Marsh is going through. And the Abbott's make their way out to Utah. So it is actually a super impressive thing. I always think about my great, great, great, great, great, great, great. My mom's now listening and she's gonna, she's coming for me because I got the greats wrong. I would need to pull FamilySearch up to get the greats right. But my mom apparently has some kind of a steel trap mind for family search and pedigree charts. I think it's because they used to have to do the old ones where you had to write it out by hand. It's a group sheet. You know what I mean? But whatever has happened, I can throw a name out to her from our family history on her side. And she'll be like, oh, well, that's, he's the third cousin once removed, but that's because his brand and just go on and tell me who their parents are.
Gerrit And I'm like, I don't even know who my cousins are, basically. My ability to do that is very limited. But my great-great, great-great, I think it's my third great-grandmother, Olive Boynton is the sister of John Boynton. And John Boynton is one of the apostles who apostatizes after the Kirtland Safety Society affair. And you have to think how hard was it for her to stay in the church when her brother who was an apostle is now denouncing Joseph Smith. But she stays faithful in the church. She's married to Jonathan Harriman Hale. And she, they stay faithful in the church and move to Nauvoo. And then eventually they, they die in Iowa thanks to the United States government. I mean, well, I mean, I guess it's the winter. But also, you know, we, no one moves to Western Iowa on purpose.
Gerrit Let's put it that way. Right now, no one moves to Western Iowa on purpose.
Richard Let alone when it's, you know.
Gerrit Yeah, if you're, if you're moving to Western Iowa in the middle of winter, you know, I hope you won the lottery or something. And that's the reason why you're doing it. But at any rate, I think that that is something to consider. Where does our testimony come from? Is our testimony of men and people, or is it because of the power of the Holy Spirit that has spoken to your soul and told you this is true? So I know it's really difficult, but I'm so grateful that you have, instead of looking outward for things that might confirm them and their apostasy, you've looked back inward and you felt the Holy Spirit speak to you. So thank you for that email.
Richard This next email comes to us from Matt Gerrit. Richard, I feel it is my duty to come to your defense. Well, this is the first.
Gerrit So let's see here. So you just chose this one, and it just so happens that he's coming to your defense.
Richard We spun the Wheel of Fun and it came on this one. Interesting.
Gerrit We receive literally dozens of emails every other day at this point. I mean, we probably receive somewhere around eight to ten emails a day, it seems like.
Richard Yeah.
Gerrit Yeah. I mean, half of them are missionaries saying, give me free stuff. I just got to Slovenia and I need free things.
Richard I think it's higher if you count the missionary emails. We do get quite a bit.
Gerrit We get a lot of missionary emails. Go ahead.
Richard Well, actually, I just yesterday actually ran into a missionary who is serving in our stake that we gave access to the free premium on. And he didn't know who I was, obviously, and didn't know that he had actually requested the access. It was very funny.
Gerrit So wait, so he was telling you about The Standard of Truth Podcast even though you're one of the hosts of The Standard of Truth Podcast?
Richard I was with a friend of mine and he mentioned it. And he said, Oh yeah, I've heard of that podcast. Somebody emailed me and gave me access to the Google Drive. I'm like, well, that was me. I said, did you request it? He said, no.
Gerrit So someone requested it once. Had he listened to any of it?
Richard I mean, he had. He's listening to the apostasy sections of Joseph Smith and the Restoration.
Gerrit Oh, not like how to personally apostatize. We didn't put that into one. That's not one of the missionary ones.
Richard That's the premium premium.
Gerrit The premium, yeah. The super premium. The fifth wall premium. If you go, there's a paywall. And then when you get beyond the paywall, paywall, then you get a sea foam green coat and you're a frock. Sorry that you can dig in. And then you then you get to find out the real secrets anyway.
Richard Anyway, so Matt comes to my defense. Granted, I am still a few months behind in my efforts to catch up to the most current episodes. Perhaps someone else has already done so. No, Matt, no one has. Nevertheless, I have come to the point in the podcast to which Dr. Dirkmaat, he puts doctor in quotes by the way, has created the story of this supposed Johnny or Tim or whatever Horton that supposedly performs some songs about obscure historical events. I, like you Richard, have never heard of such a person, nor does any of the music ring any sort of bell for me. As someone who, as a boy, fell asleep to the likes of the Norman Leboeuf Choir.
Gerrit Wow. Whoa.
Richard If you don't have, I condemn to repeat it, handy, that is the next best thing to fall asleep to.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard I feel that if such a musician existed, my mother would have subjected me to it on our road trips from Dallas, Texas to Bountiful, Utah every summer. I have asked many of my family and kin, so him using kin really does provide credibility.
Gerrit The moment you use the word kin, you age 25 years.
Richard Well, yeah. So he's familiar with the South, with the word kin. And not one has ever heard of this supposed Billboard charting music. So I feel it is my duty to warn you, Richard, that perhaps your friend, also in quotes, Gerrit, has most likely pilfered much of the filthy lucre you pile up for yourselves through your premium content.
Gerrit Basically, we're like smog the dragon at this point, where I just like lay on top of it. It's just all gold coins and chalices, and the bones of people that have come to try to take it from me.
Richard And Angie says, hey, can we use some of this to pay our electric bill?
Gerrit My precious.
Richard By creating this alter ego, writing lyrics anyone can find in view of the Hebrews.
Gerrit Okay. That's a deep cut right there.
Richard Recording the music, putting it on Spotify. Oh, I cut it. I know. This is no surprise to anyone.
Gerrit Did you fail reading the email that's defending you?
Richard Of course I did. Look, I'm new to glasses. I'm farsighted. The whole thing is falling apart.
Gerrit Yeah. If we ever do another live event, which I'm hoping we don't, you'll get to see Richard sporting permanent glasses. Yeah.
Richard Yes. It's not just old eyes. I'm also now very farsighted.
Gerrit Have you thought about LASIK?
Richard No. At this point, it's just the slow progression to the great. No.
Gerrit You got to do the LASIK.
Richard No. It's all...
Gerrit I guarantee. Do we have a doctor listening who does LASIK?
Richard But I'm still going to have the old eyes after we're reading glasses. I botched this joke.
Gerrit I just don't like looking at you with the glasses on.
Richard I botched Matt's joke. He's coming to my defense and I'm reading so poorly. It's just as I'm back on BYU's campus, I'm just intimidated by being surrounded by all these books that I haven't read. Let me try this again. Gerrit has most likely pilfered much of the filthy looker you pile up for yourselves through premium content, and has clearly created his own Potemkin village of his sort by creating this alter ego, writing lyrics anyone can find in view of the Hebrews, recording the music, putting it on Spotify, and paying a large number of people to email into the show pretending they are and always have been familiar with this Canadian coffee magnate turned folk music star of yesteryear. Just thought you'd like to know you're not alone, never heard him, and feeling like we're the one in the majority. This comes from Matt.
Gerrit I feel like I want Matthew to come on a tour with us. I think we need to spend some more time with Matthew.
Richard What a perfect opportunity to talk about the Standard of Truth tours that are going to be next summer. They're going to be in June and August, and as I stall for time, you can talk a little bit as I pull up the specific dates. Because I don't remember, you can tell a little bit about what it is. We've had some folks already sign up and we're excited about it.
Gerrit So we'd love to have you join us. We're going to the first tour in June. It's going to the sites in Missouri and in Nauvoo. And hopefully, that means that will also include another Hans Mill visit since we were able to make it last time, which is very special place to go. And then in August, we're going to be going to the sites in New York and Pennsylvania and also Ohio, including we're going to Fort McHenry, which is where the Star-Spangled Manor was, well, in the harbor of it is where that was written, written about Fort McHenry. And then we go to the Battle of Gettysburg Battlefield. So it is some fun. We've had amazing experiences. So we just had a couple of people email this morning actually like, where do I find information about the tours for your podcast? I'm like, well, it's on the website. So if you want to go there, there's a tab that says tours and you can click on it.
Richard Now, I regularly forget to put links in that I promised to put in. I always put the link into the tour.
Gerrit Interesting.
Richard Yes. So June 22nd through the 28th, the Missouri Nauvoo Tour and August 3rd through the 9th, is the Palmyra Kirtland Tour. Also, our crack research staff just got back to me that in Council Bluffs, home sales declined dramatically in the months of November, December, and January.
Gerrit Interesting. So you think no one goes to Council Bluffs, which is basically where winter quarters was, right? No one goes to Council Bluffs in January and says, you know what? Let's make a home for ourselves here.
Richard Yes. I am telling you that that's what is currently happening, let alone 100 and-
Gerrit Because Richard has his real estate license, he looks these kinds of things up. I mean, when you travel with him, he actually pulls up home prices on the fly as you're going places. They go, yeah, that house over there is worth 600 grand.
Richard Yeah. None of that zest of it stuff. I get the good stuff, I get the real stuff.
Gerrit So I still do renew the call that if we have any lazy doctors listening, he needs some help, and he needs you to intervene. So thank you, Matthew, for that. We have another?
Richard We have another one. Sometimes we get emails that come in, and they spark a vigorous conversation between myself, my wife, and Gerrit. It strikes a certain nerve, and we get very irritated and frustrated. Yes. We received such an email from Eric.
Gerrit Sorry, Eric.
Intro Well, Eric.
Richard Well, so look, I mean, Eric. Eric.
Gerrit Eric's fine.
Richard Yeah, fan of the show, friend of the show. Now, maybe not, maybe neither actually.
Gerrit Yeah. Did he say I'm a fan of the show?
Richard He didn't say he's a fan.
Gerrit So maybe he's just randomly emailing podcasts and he's like, what are you guys going to do about this?
Richard So the subject is Supposed Joys of Relation. This is circulating on Facebook and Twitter. Interested in your take seems sketchy to me. So it already makes me like Eric more.
Gerrit Yeah. OK. Well, what is the what is the quote?
Richard So it's it's there's there's a lot to it. Do you want me to get into? There's a link to it and there's quite a bit of things to be able to discuss on the issue. It's essentially kind of an apocalyptic vision that George Albert Smith has in the 1950s.
Gerrit And this is being shared on X?
Richard It's on the Twitters, it's on the X, it's on the Facebooks.
Gerrit OK.
Richard As you get older, you just put S's on the end of everything.
Gerrit The Internet's, the Interwebs, the doohickeys.
Richard Yeah. So I mean, there's a lot of fairly apocalyptic language of nuclear annihilation.
Gerrit OK. And what is the context in which it's being shared? Like, why is the person sharing it?
Richard Well, we're in certain times that if things like to not, to paraphrase the ghost of Christmas present, if these shadows remain unaltered by the future, we will all die in nuclear winter.
Gerrit Right. Not that Tiny Tim, they'll be an empty chair, or Tiny Tim was set.
Richard There's going to be a lot of empty chairs here.
Gerrit We're lots of Tiny Tims.
Richard 50 million empty chairs.
Gerrit So, you know, this is one of the things, we've talked about this before on the podcast, and we've especially talked about it as people have tried to essentially demonstrate that they have inside information about the timing of the Second Coming. Now, in a lot of ways, if you want to gain a following and to have people think that you know what you're doing, talking about the Second Coming being closer than it was yesterday is like a surefire bet, because it's literally... So, first of all, unlike other Christians, and not that all other Christians don't believe this, but many Christians don't believe in the cataclysmic return of Jesus and the destruction of the wicked and Jesus will reign for a thousand years. Many more do now than used to, and you have the whole rise of dispensationalism in the latter half of the 20th century, which if you ever hear someone talking about dispensationalism, they aren't talking about us, because you hear us use the...
Gerrit Oh, and they'll keep, you know, here in the last dispensation or the fullness of times. Dispensationalism is the theology of rapture. So that's the theology of, there's actually going to be all the righteous taken up from the earth before the cataclysms happen. And so then, you know, how long the cataclysms are going on, that's why it makes for great Hollywood shows. Especially for people who don't actually believe in God or fear Him at all, this concept of all of the, you know, essentially good people that are left below, you know, that are left behind, that, you know, how do they do it when all of a sudden their pious Christian co-worker is nothing but a pile of clothes and they're just gone and that means that they, you know, here comes the sixth rider of the apocalypse. So that idea, like I said, dispensationalism, is actually a very new idea in Christian thought.
Gerrit The idea that the righteous are going to be caught up to meet him, you know, that is not new. But the idea that it is going to be the space in between the time that then there's years, maybe months, at least, between then and when Jesus actually destroys everything, that's actually a relatively recent theological construct.
Richard Do you want me to read the post that's making this?
Gerrit Yeah, let's go ahead and read that.
Richard Okay. Shortly after World War II ended, President George Albert Smith had a vision of another great and terrible war which would take place. He said that it would be so bad that it would make World War II look like a training exercise. It would involve many of the countries of the world, including Germany, Hungary. Germany is always going to be involved.
Gerrit Well, I mean, come on.
Richard You can't see it.
Gerrit Yeah. Especially if you're talking about the 20th century.
Richard Is there a World War? All right. So Germany?
Gerrit Yeah. When you study, if you study German history in Germany, it's like, and here's Germany in the 1700s, here's the 1800s, and then the 2014. We put in a bike path in Berlin. You guys kind of skipped the entire 20th century. Yeah, there was some, you know, okay, oh, you do talk about the Berlin Wall coming down. What happened before that? Nothing happened.
Richard Didn't someone put it up?
Gerrit No, nothing happened. Poland invited us.
Richard Germany reminds me of the, what is the Mel Brooks, what's the Mel Brooks, the producers? So the song that he just wants peace. Yeah, a little piece of Poland, a little piece of everything. Germany, Hungary, Israel, Turkey, and the United States and the Soviet Union. Thousands of tanks would be transported in huge trucks, so they would be in place where they would be needed when the war began. The United States would have missiles in Europe which carried an atomic bomb. However, the United States would be committed to many far-reaching alliances and would withdraw its missiles to satisfy the Soviet Union. Then the war would begin and people would die like flies. The military power of the Soviet Union at this time would be much greater than the United States. He said the United States would take away the weapons of the people. He said the people need to bury them and hide them, so they could be gotten in a moment's notice, that they would be critical for survival and training.
Richard He said, in that day, we would have atomic missiles buried in big holes in the ground, which he described as being like grain silos. The Soviets would send their own missiles to try to destroy them, as well as US military bases and cities. They would also send in ground troops. President Smith indicated that this attack would take place on a holiday after the presidential election, but before the official inauguration. He said that the president at this time would not be the typical European descent, until then all presidents would be of British or Northern European ancestry. He then gave a sign to be looking for as to which election cycle. He said that just preceding the beginning of the war, that Russia would demand Alaska back. News Week, July 8th, 2022, news report. Russia has made an outlandish demand over the weekend that the United States return Alaska in historic settlement in California, in addition to paying reparations to Russia over the crippling American-led sanctions that have put Moscow economy in a tailspin.
Richard President Smith said that the conditions after the war would be dreadful and would make the worst times of depression seem like a Sunday school picnic in comparison. President Smith.
Gerrit We don't really have Sunday school picnics anymore, but we still use that like euphemism. You know what I mean? Like, it used to be you'd get together for a picnic and then have Sunday school.
Richard Yeah. Now you get Uber Eats and watch football at home. We've evolved to be much better than we've been.
Gerrit Yeah. This is the reason why we need this prophecy.
Richard By the way, we believe in the Second Coming and the apocalyptic of all of the things, right? So there's nothing.
Gerrit But we're being asked a question about a source, so we're just sharing the source.
Richard Yeah. So I mean, I don't want to, just to be very clear, we have a testimony and we don't want to go back to the first email that we read and said, okay, we're glad that you liked it.
Gerrit We're glad that we don't have a testimony.
Richard You know what?
Gerrit Your aunt's got, you know what? I've read some of your aunt's posting online and she's persuasive. Did you know that And It Came to Pass was taken out of the Book of Mormon in several places?
Richard Join us on our premium premium. What are you talking about? President Smith told him to look specifically for the day when the American dollar was so worthless that no other country would begin, I don't know, I just had a stroke there. No other country would begin not allowing payment in dollars. For that would signal the beginning of such a severe depression that only LDS people who have their food supplies and clothing supplies and whatever they need for heat and to cook with will be able to survive. He then stopped for a moment as though he was going inside himself and then said that there would be other survivors, but they would only survive because they were the honest in heart, whom the Lord would miraculously bring to the saints to teach and nurture, and that their survival would be something truly spiritual to those of us who were prepared for the calamities, which should befall the LDS people who are not prepared. And the unprepared LDS would be affected the worst and die the most agonizing deaths because they have been warned and yet rejected those warnings.
Gerrit That's pretty stark. So you can see the reason why someone will be like, you know what, I need to do a better job prepping. So there's a lot of elements to that, right? If someone feels like the people around them are not preparing enough for the Second Coming, and frankly, if you're someone who believes in the Second Coming, as you should as a Latter-day Saint, it's very easy to see that other people around you are not as concerned with it as you are. I mean, because the general nature, the general hum of life is to go about your day and to not be sitting there thinking, wait a minute, is that a missile coming in? It's to think, well, things are fine. And so there is certainly an aspect to, should people be more cognizant and more prepared, and thinking more about the fact that our Lord is going to come and he is going to come as he says swiftly. I think so. I think every Latter-day Saint would benefit from time to time stopping and realizing that we believe something that is fairly radical in the Christian world, and that is that Jesus is coming, and Jesus is coming soon, and that the church members need to be ready to meet him.
Richard So I don't know if a member of our ward on Sunday had read this and asked about it, but they asked me about my thoughts on the Second Coming and we're asking about some of this preparedness. Here's the thing, as it relates to the Second Coming, I am certainly no scriptorian. There is little evidence that I am a scriptorian on literally any topic at all, but specifically on the Second Coming. What I said to him is the way I feel about this generally, the benefit of us being members of the church is that we have a living prophet, and that we should follow the living prophet. What I said is, if two apostles die in Jerusalem tomorrow, and are resurrected three days later, is there anything that you're not doing that you should be doing, or anything that you aren't doing that you are the opposite, anything that you are doing that shouldn't or shouldn't be doing?
Gerrit It sounds like you're asking people to sin at this point. If you want to be saved, come and join with us, and become acquainted with our secret works, and our works of darkness.
Richard So, but if there's anything that you would change, then you should change it now, right?
Gerrit Because that's the reality. Look, it is important to know that at some point, Jesus is going to come. But I will say this, every person who has ever lived, including the person who is making this quote, the person who's quoting this, who is so concerned about it, and we'll share some more of his story here in a minute, every person who has ever said, this is when the Second Coming is coming, has died before it happened. Every single one of them. So all of the people who have spent much of their lives saying, you know what, I've got to be ready, I've got to be ready, I've got to be ready, the reality for them was that their Second Coming was them passing away and going to our Lord, not the Lord coming here. Now again, I'm not saying that means Jesus is, he is. But what I'm talking about is about practicality.
Gerrit The reality is, given the expanse of time, given the undoubted millions of people who listen to this podcast, that the vast majority of people listening, if not all of them, are going to go to God rather than Jesus coming to them.
Richard That's part of the reason that no man knoweth, right? It's not just that Jesus comes to us, it's that we go to him and we don't know when that will come, and we should live our lives, and I think at the heart of it, right? We should live our lives in a way that if he is coming, that I'm spiritually-
Gerrit I've shared this before, but one of the starkest conversations I ever had in college was with a woman who, she was Latter-day Saint, but she was not living all of her baptismal covenants, I mean, or any of them, I don't think, but she asked me one day, hey, can I talk to you about religion? Well, I was super excited because I was trying to share the gospel with everybody.
Richard You're just coming from your mission.
Gerrit No, yeah, yeah. I'm like, oh, really? And I'm like, and so I'm like, okay, let's talk about the first, so I'm like, all kinds of jazz to start sharing a bunch of Joseph Smith quotes with her and stuff. And so I start in and she kind of cuts me off after the first 10 minutes, much like I do with you. And you've been joining on long enough. Yeah, exactly. What are the lines on the Texas game this week? Anyway, I think three. Oh, OK.
Richard It was seven and a half.
Gerrit Boy, the BYU line is terrible. SMU barely beat Nevada.
Richard Maybe they got Eric Dickerson back.
Gerrit Or whoever was paying him.
Richard Now they can.
Gerrit SMU barely beat Nevada. They beat him by like five points. And Nevada has not been good. And they think that SMU is going to blow BYU out.
Richard I think it was between 14 and 15, somewhere in that range.
Gerrit I saw a line as low as 10. Oh, wow.
Richard You want to hit that. Well, if you're betting SMU, which you shouldn't do because of President Hinckley's You shouldn't bet at all.
Gerrit If you're going to bet, don't do it. Never bet ever because betting is wrong. But also, 10 and a half is a good line. I'm worried about BYU. Anyway, so I was talking to this tour and I start trying to give her the whole spiel, you know, and it becomes very clear that she is actually annoyed and she doesn't want to. And she's like, no, I don't want to learn about any of that. I don't want to know any of that. And I'm like, oh, okay. Well, I mean, did you have like a specific question then? She was like, yeah, what are the signs of the Second Coming? Now, again, because I was I was so excited that she was willing to even talk about the church, given her previous statements that she had made about her disapproval of it. I started going through them. I go to Matthew, you know, and I start reading them off. I go to Doctrine and Covenants, Section 45. I, you know, I and at Doctrine and Covenants, Section 133, I start going through them and listing them off. Doctrine and Covenants, Section 29, if you're wondering, also an amazing revelation for talking about the Second Coming.
Gerrit And as I'm listing them off, I finally get to the point, I'm probably like we're probably like 25 minutes in reading the scriptures. And I finally just stop and I'm like, you know, out of curiosity, why do you only want to study about this and not about, I was trying to teach you about Joseph Smith, I was trying to teach you about the Book of Mormon. And she said, well, my boyfriend and I, you know, we haven't really been living the gospel at all. And we don't want to change. But I also want, you know, if the Second Coming is going to be really close, then I do want to. So if I knew what the signs were, then I could decide when I need to go repent, because we don't feel like we want to right now. But if more signs are being fulfilled, then I guess maybe I would. It was a very interesting take where she believes in Jesus enough and the Second Coming enough that she does want to change her life, but she just doesn't want to change it yet, which calls to mind Augustine, right?
Gerrit Where he was quite an intemperate young man, and his prayer was, God, grant me chastity and grant me constancy, but don't grant it to me yet, until his conversion. And, of course, the tragedy was this guy she was dating actually was killed a few weeks later in a motorcycle accident, which was devastating and horrible. But it kind of points out the point that you were making there, Richard, and that is whatever someone posts on X or Facebook, our purpose as Latter-day Saints is to be serving Jesus in any way that we can. And someone posting saying, this is how bad the end times are going to be if you don't repent, is probably should not be the motivator for you deciding that you're going to start living the gospel more.
Gerrit Now, maybe the person posting is trying to use it as a motivator to buy some more food storage or to buy some more guns or to apparently bury your guns and hide them. But this is not how the church gives direction to people.
Richard A couple of the responses to this post. One response that's really interesting, do you have a link or source for this quote or talk?
Gerrit Very nice, that person, yes. Maybe that's Matthew.
Richard Another, can you share the original source? Do you know which book, journal, etc. we can go to to independently verify this? Well, no, that's got to be a litner there, obviously.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard Very well done. Then, do you have the reference for this? I've never heard this quote before, very interesting.
Gerrit What is their response when they're asked for a reference?
Richard They give a reference to, in this one case, BYU has it archived and they archived it to a person by the name of David Hughes Horn and his recollection of a vision by George Albert Smith. So, the BYU has it archived.
Gerrit Right. So, for some people, that is a way of demonstrating that something is valid. So, I've heard people before say things like, well, we know that that is a valid source because it's at the Church History Library. We also have copies of Mormonism unveiled at the Church History Library. The fact that we have things at the Church History Library does not in and of itself make those things verified. We collect all kinds of anti-Mormon material.
Richard It just means that it exists.
Gerrit Right. So first off, I would say that that's one of the first signs. When someone is responding to where a source comes from, and they are saying, well, it's in BYU's archives. First of all, this person, this Latter-day Saint, it was a faithful Latter-day Saint, David Hughes Horn. He actually gives multiple accounts of this. And so there's more than just one account that he has. He's got an account from 1988. He's got an account from 1989. He's got another one from, one's in February and another's in March. And so this is the origin of this. Now, this is a personal reminiscence. And so, that's, that is something that you have to deal with as a historian. Does it mean that everything in it is not true? Of course not. But, given when it is being written down in 1988 and 1989, and when it supposedly happened in 1950, I mean, you don't have to be a math wizard or be on the cusp of your business Ph.D.
Gerrit to know. That's half a century almost.
Richard I think the earliest he states is he was 10 years old in 1830s. It was 1946, I think was the earliest reminiscence. So about 10. But yeah, I mean, it's 42 years.
Gerrit Yeah. And so, that's kind of a problem, right? There's a big gap there in that, which doesn't mean that, you know, that doesn't mean that the reminiscence is false. But that's when you try to find other sources that corroborate that thing. If this is a vision that President Smith wanted members of the Church to act upon, wouldn't it be in more places than one person's personal reminiscence of a conversation that they had? I mean, again, that doesn't mean that it's not true or that every part of it's not true. I mean, there are obviously some parts of it that don't match up very well now. I mean, you know, the Soviet Union is going to do X. Well, a year later, the Soviet Union doesn't exist. So that, oops, you know, that's kind of a problem. And you can tell when you read one of the accounts. In fact, I think I'll just read one of the accounts.
Gerrit It's clear that the person is very much responding to current events that are going on. Now, I do recognize this because I am, I was a young boy in the 1980s, especially the late 80s. And I remember having a conversation with my dad about the potential of nuclear war. Now, I was only like 10 years old. It was like 1988. And so I remember that tension. And so it's almost crazy to think about it. And, you know, none of you young, none of you whippersnappers today know what it's like to live in a complete and total threat nuclear war. And even I don't really, I don't understand it the way someone who went through the Cuban Missile Crisis did or, you know. But I remember I was old enough to be worried about nuclear war. And I remember asking my dad about it. Like, how will this ever be resolved then? And I remember my dad saying, well, God will have to do something to change it. My dad had obviously much more faith than I do.
Gerrit And so I remember that feeling that at any moment, Russia could launch 6,000 nukes and that's the end. And that was me as a kid remembering that.
Richard I will say one of the reasons why I think this has actually become more popular right now is there's a specific part where it talks about between the election and the inauguration. I think that's part of the thing that's caused quite the fervor of this, where it's like, boy, the world where it's at right now in between that time seems like we're right for this thing. And so it seems to be becoming even more popular because of the time.
Gerrit And it speaks to what people want to say. Oh, there's going to be a destruction. People aren't preparing enough. People aren't recognizing the signs. One of the things you hear an awful lot online is that other people aren't recognizing the signs the way they are. But you always have to be careful because who's the person interpreting that sign then? It's whoever it is that is posting this. Oh, I see this as being fitting for our day. Well, so did Latter-day Saints in the 1860s and 1870s. They saw the Civil War and the aftermath of the Civil War as proof that Jesus was going to come right then. And they fervently believed it, and they certainly lived it, and they were wrong. Now, it doesn't mean they were bad. It doesn't mean that they were horrible people. It means that our tendency as people is to interpret Scripture in the basis of what is going on in our lives right now. But we actually don't have the authority to interpret Revelation or Scripture as to what it applies to.
Gerrit And we might, hopefully, it makes us a better person. But the only person who has the ability to declare doctrine for the Church is the Prophet and, you know, the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and the First Presidency. The Prophet declares that. And so that goes back to my other question. If this was something that President Smith and subsequently the Church wanted everyone to know so that everyone could act accordingly to prepare, then you wouldn't be getting it from an ex-posting, from someone asking, what's the source, from someone saying, well, I know it's in an archive somewhere. That's not how doctrine is taught. Doctrine is consistently and repeatedly taught by the Church. If you have to go back half a century through a 40-year reminiscing account to try to find out what it is, then that's not the currently taught doctrine of the Church.
Gerrit Again, notice, you can go back to our earliest episodes where we talk about doctrine. I'm not saying that that means that there was no vision or that everything that this person is saying is not accurate. What I'm saying is, if the Lord wanted everyone to react to it, it doesn't come by way of someone musing on an ex post. That is not how God gives his doctrine. So if you find it interesting, fine, that's great. It's interesting. But why isn't it quoted in any of our manuals? I see one of the comments on there was, well, how come this isn't quoted in our manuals? I wonder why. Let's ask that question. Why don't you think it's quoted in our manuals? Sometimes the answer you'll get from people leads to a kind of Latter-day Saint Gnosticism that makes me very uncomfortable, where people will say, oh, well, it's only the truly, those who are truly looking are given this information.
Gerrit That is, it is true that only those who look for the Lord will find him. But following what the living prophet is saying is looking to the Lord. It's not a requirement that you just so happen to be on X that day and read this purported revelation to get you prepared for the Second Coming. It's not. The church has made it very clear what they want us to do. Maybe I'll read part of the 1989 account of this reminiscence. He says, Sometimes rare, traumatic, or shocking events become emblazoned upon one's memory. This paper documents such an event. In 1946, I witnessed a prophetic utterance made by George Albert Smith, the prophet and president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from 1945 to 1951. He goes on to give his history that he's related to George Albert Smith. From 1944 to March 1947, we lived on the same block in the Yale Ward as George Albert Smith and frequently had contact with him.
Gerrit Many times he paused at our home while on his evening walk and he talked with me as I worked out in our front yard. My family visited him a few times at his home and he visited my family at our home several times. He would always show pleasure when I met him and once told me that the work the Lord had for me to do and what I must do to be prepared for his work. So I mean, so far this is this is just a very pleasant reminiscence, right? One day our father arranged for George Albert Smith to speak to us in a family time. The prophet told us of a vision that he had. At least 11 elements of it have occurred and the rest may yet occur soon. My record of his prophecy may be important because it may not be officially recorded. So you can already see here, and this is where the text of this post comes from. It's not officially recorded. So what do we know about revelations that God intends for his people to know?
Gerrit Well, they are officially recorded. In fact, it's how the Doctrine and Covenants opens up. Search these commandments for they are true and faithful. And the prophecies and promises which are in them shall all be fulfilled. Right? So the Malpass way shall be fulfilled. I don't have it in front of me, so I'm misquoting it, but... Which is very different than here is a secret thing that nobody else knows. Again, that doesn't mean that when he was, you know, I don't know, 10 years old, or how old was he at this point?
Richard Yeah, I was around 10.
Gerrit Yeah, that he didn't hear some powerful things from the prophet. No doubt that he did. But was this intended for public consumption? Well, we already know that George Albert Smith did not intend it for public consumption. How do we know that? Well, as the prophet, he spoke many times. He also oversaw the manuals of the church. He also oversaw the institute and seminary teaching in the church. And it wasn't shared in any of those.
Richard So, one of the things that I think someone might cling to is that there are elements of that or one specific line in that that was mentioned in the conference address. And so people cling to that quote and say, so this validates...
Gerrit The interesting part about that, though, is that it's actually from a second encounter, not from this one, right? So he's going to claim a second encounter that's actually third-hand. So let me just keep reading. I feel like everyone listening right now is confused, bored, and angry.
Richard I don't know. People love a good apocalypse vision.
Gerrit Okay, but still confused, bored, and angry.
Richard Oh, there's no question about that. But I think that they like the topic.
Gerrit Richard didn't even tell you his son's coming home from his mission today.
Richard I mentioned, that's why I'm here today. Oh, I thought you were just telling you, you're taking the classes for him. We might keep doing that. We'll see. I think he'd do better than me. He's much smarter than I am. But yes, he comes home. His flight was already delayed.
Gerrit But you have wisdom. You have wisdom. He has the exuberance of youth. You have the wisdom that's formed by having to have dealt with him as a teenager.
Richard Around 9 PM tonight, we'll be giving him a big hug. It'll be wonderful.
Gerrit We're very excited. It's awesome. We should we should live stream.
Richard We should turn it into content for the show.
Gerrit Content for the show.
Richard My joy and private moments.
Gerrit Oh, look, here's Richard crying. And that's just because they closed the Qdoba in the airport, which that is actually my. Yeah, you love you some Qdoba. I love Qdoba. And they closed the only two locations in Utah.
Richard It's a dark day.
Gerrit So if I ever, if you want me to come visit you and speak at your steak somewhere and you live near Qdoba, there's a chance.
Richard It's a Shake Shack for me, Gerrit.
Gerrit Well, see, they still have that. Yeah, I know. Yeah. Okay. So let me go back to what he's saying. So, but I do want to, I will stop and point some things out here. Already he's saying, I don't think this has ever been recorded. Okay. Last year, so this is 1987. He's, because he's writing this in 1888, or actually in 89, this account is, and he says that, yeah, so this is February of 1989 and he says last year. So in 1988, I visited the Church Historian's Library to read President Smith's journal to see what he had written about it. But the staff knew nothing about it. I then discussed it with Leonard Arrington. So that's the Church Historian who said, I have never heard of it. Even Arthur Haycock, his faithful secretary, did not know it. But he worked with President Smith until July of 1947. So he has this personal reminiscence.
Richard So that's what I'm saying. So 46 is when I think that he originally hears that first part, which then aligns to why he would ask someone that was a secretary.
Gerrit Yeah. And he's asking, is there any record of this? And he goes and reads the journals and there's no record of it. Right. We dressed up in our best clothes. I shined my shoes again. My father was disappointed with a sister who went to a movie with her boyfriend. Dad asked her to stay with her bow. This is the best. Who had finished his Navy service in August 1946 and share the evening with the Lord's prophet, but she would not.
Richard First of all, thank you for your service.
Gerrit We were seated at the given time in the living room for the prophet to arrive. Present were my father, mother, sister, Alice Merrill-Horn, age 17, my brother, Robert Horn, age 14, my twin, Jonathan H. Horn, and I, both of them. It was after dark and we had difficulty making the front porch light work. It was cold in that room, so he's given all this detail here. We were preparing for the president. When George Albert arrived, we sang a verse that we thank the God for prophets. That's very touching. Very nice. And he then goes on to say, we shouldn't talk without notes for some time about the importance of keeping the commandments and always giving a full tithe. Being a good example, wherever we were. Then President Smith said, I have had a troublesome vision of another great and terrible war that made the war that just ended look like a training exercise, and people died like flies. And you shared a good portion of this.
Gerrit That they would hit military, it goes on talking about, I saw the United States withdraw its missiles to appease the Soviet Union, and then the war began. He also said that he would, now that part obviously is the exact opposite that's going on. We actually are putting more and more missiles in various parts of NATO expanding. So withdrawing them and maybe, again, that could happen in the future, but that's not the trajectory of missiles in Europe right now. He also said that we would have big missiles and deep holes, and he described like grain silos, which the Soviets would try to destroy by their own missiles. They would hit military installations in some cities. He also said the president at that time would be of Greek extraction. So apparently, that's what he's remembering, that the president is going to be Patros Papadegos. Which is the most Greek name I can think of.
Richard I was always a Webster fan of George Papadopoulos.
Gerrit Yeah, very nice, very nice. He says, until then, all presidents would be of British or Northern European ancestry. He continued, the US would soon be bound by numerous entangling alliances, which would take away weapons owned by the people. He talked about some of the initial attack and the ground warfare, but I can't remember enough to document all their tactics and which countries' various things occurred. One tactic, especially in Europe, was to transport tanks and thousands of big trucks, like semi-trailers, on the superhighways to have them located where they wanted them when the war was to begin. That's actually the scene out of Red Dawn. During that explanation, I asked, what about the atomic cannon? To which he answered, I didn't see anything like that. He said, the aftermath was dreadful. Think of the worst, most difficult times of the Depression. He turned to us children and said, you won't remember the Depression, which was true. I didn't know there was a Depression as I was growing up. The sun came out every morning and flowers bloomed. We went to school and there was church every Sunday.
Gerrit He repeated to our parents, think of the worst condition of the Depression. Can you think of something to which our father answered, oh yes. Then President Smith continued, you know how Sunday school picnics are complete with salad, chicken, root beer, and dessert, and everyone has a wonderful time? That worst time of the Depression will seem like a Sunday school picnic when compared with how the conditions will be after that great war. When he finished speaking, he turned around and went to the front door, and as he left, I thought to myself, what he said is really important. I've got to remember it. To understand, so now he provides a little bit of his own commentary. To understand what President George Albert Smith's woeful statement, I've had a troublesome vision. One must first comprehend the kind of man President Smith was. And then he goes on to talk about the things he does in helping people after the war, providing aid, administration, Marshall Plan, things like that. Thus, for him to see an event of which he said in his April 1950 conference concluding speech, people by the millions will die like flies, it must have been a very troublesome vision.
Gerrit Now, so here is the one hook to something that we do have a cooperating source for. And that is in 1950, President Smith, while addressing the conference, did reference that phraseology, die like flies. Do you want to share that?
Richard Yeah, sure. Do you want just a little context?
Gerrit There's three paragraphs there, yeah.
Richard Brother and sisters, let us go to our homes. If our houses are not in order, let us set them in order. Let us renew our determination to honor God and keep His commandments, to love one another, to make our homes the abiding place of peace. Each of us can contribute to that in the homes in which we live. It will not be long until calamities will overtake the human family, unless there is speedy repentance. It will not be long before those who are scattered over the face of the Earth, by millions, will die like flies because of what will come. Our Heavenly Father has told us how to, how it can be avoided. And that is our mission. In part, to go into the world and to explain to people how it may be avoided. And that people need not be unhappy, as they are everywhere, but that happiness may be in their lives. Because if the Spirit of God burns in your soul, you cannot be otherwise than happy.
Gerrit Okay, so, you'll notice that while that phrase is in there, and he is certainly talking about we need to prepare for the Second Coming. And Vax says people need to repent, or, you know, it's coming quicker, right? There's always this sense that humanity can delay the inevitable end by their own, by their choice to embrace God and righteousness. But of course, what does he say that you should be doing as a result of that, of this warning that, you know, the time will come when people die like blood?
Richard Put your house in order and spread the gospel.
Gerrit Spread the gospel and put your house in order. It's very telling that rather than sharing President Smith's conference address, which includes many different topics, that it's far more catchy to share the obscure reminiscence of a purported vision, right? Because what he wanted to tell people publicly, as I said, this is the great part about prophets, is what they want to tell people, they tell people. And you have to jump through a lot of hoops to make the argument that God didn't actually want people to know about this. I don't think we have time to cover all of it, and I want to cover a little more. So maybe we'll pick this up again on our next episode, at least for part of it, and then just part of it. Dr. McInerney would let us know, just part of it, just a little bit. And then move on to that as well as another topic. So thank you so much for joining us.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth Podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.

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By the way, the key to being better at your undergrad is to come back after you already have a master's degree and take the classes all over again.

RichardBanter

So you need people around you to buoy you up when your cheerleaders are wearing burlap bags as no joke, they're wearing potato gunny sacks.

GerritBanter

So I don't know what's going on, but either you didn't know yourself then, or you don't know yourself now, but you're essentially asking me to choose between what you once told me and what you're telling me now.

GerritInsight

Is our testimony of men and people, or is it because of the power of the Holy Spirit that has spoken to your soul and told you this is true?

GerritInsight

Basically, we're like smog the dragon at this point, where I just like lay on top of it.

GerritBanter

As you get older, you just put S's on the end of everything.

RichardBanter

What I said is, if two apostles die in Jerusalem tomorrow, and are resurrected three days later, is there anything that you're not doing that you should be doing

RichardInsight

The fact that we have things at the Church History Library does not in and of itself make those things verified.

GerritInsight

But following what the living prophet is saying is looking to the Lord.

GerritInsight

As I said, this is the great part about prophets, is what they want to tell people, they tell people.

GerritInsight

More from this episode

Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.

Claim check

What critics say, and what the episode found
George Albert Smith had a vision of nuclear war that the Church has kept quiet, and its signs are being fulfilled now.
If something is in BYU's or the Church's archives, it must be verified.
Knowing the signs tells you when to start repenting.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.

Take it to class

Ready to copy into a lesson or a text

When someone you love leaves the Church, remember where your testimony came from: the Holy Spirit, not any one person.

Only the prophet and apostles declare doctrine; what God wants His people to know is taught openly, not hidden in a decades-later reminiscence.

Ask for the source. A viral "vision" of George Albert Smith comes from a 1989 recollection that even its author couldn't find in the President's journals.

Ask yourself: if the Second Coming started tomorrow, is there anything you'd change? Then change it now.

Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.

Banter bin

The running jokes, for people who skip ahead
Andrew LeDuc, freshmanRichard attends his son's BYU classes, confuses a classmate, and plans to ask about the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo (1:20, 1:58, 2:46).
Idaho potatoesA high school mascot that's a potato, cheerleaders in gunny sacks, and a Marilyn Monroe potato-sack poster (4:58, 5:18).
Gerrit's mom and the greatsHis mom has a steel-trap mind for FamilySearch and will correct how many greats he says (9:33).
Richard and the missionariesA missionary tells Richard about the podcast without knowing Richard gave him access (13:15, 13:45).
The premium premiumPast the paywall's paywall you get a sea foam green coat and a digging frock (14:09, 14:10).
Johnny HortonMatt comes to Richard's defense: Gerrit made him up and paid people to pretend (14:28, 17:27).
Richard's reading glassesNewly farsighted, he botches the email defending him; Gerrit pushes LASIK (16:43, 17:01).
The crack research staffReports Council Bluffs home sales drop in winter; Richard looks up home prices on the fly (19:43, 20:23).
President Hinckley and the betting linesBYU vs. SMU spreads, with the reminder never to bet (35:58, 36:37).
QdobaGerrit mourns Utah's last two Qdobas; Richard's is Shake Shack (53:38, 54:01).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

Your question could be next week’s episode
Questions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
General ConferenceGeneral Conference talks that cite a scripture read in this episode.

In General Conference

Talks from the latest General Conference that cite a scripture this episode reads or names on air
October 2026 General Conference · cites D&C 45Comfort from the Holy GhostElder Matthew J. EyringElder Eyring speaks to the moments when we realize "I can't fix this," the thought that came to a friend whose son had died.

Summaries, themes and lessons for every talk are on What Did They Say?

Go deeperWhere to read more.

Go deeper

Deep dives the episode points toward
Early apostles who left, like Thomas Marsh and John Boynton, and the family members who stayed (8:33).
Dispensationalism and the rise of rapture theology in the 20th century (23:59).
Latter-day Saint expectations of the Second Coming during the Civil War era (46:00).
George Albert Smith's April 1950 conference address in full (59:47).
SOT Litner · S4E36.