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S4E4 · Witnesses of the Book of Mormon Part 1
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Standard of Truth · Season 4 · Episode 4 · 1:03:51

Witnesses of the Book of Mormon Part 1

Lucy Harris spent two weeks digging up the Smiths' yard in Harmony looking for gold plates she insisted did not exist, until a big black snake hissed her away.

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The question ·
Is there any light you can shed on when Joseph actually was told or realized he would be functioning as a prophet of the Lord?
Dave (listener)

After Richard's prayer pet peeves and a top five of polygamy facts, Dave asks when Joseph knew he was a prophet. Gerrit says Joseph learned step by step, and that D&C 21, given when the church was organized, plainly calls him a seer, a prophet and an apostle. Then he opens the series on the witnesses with the heavy burden of having plates no one else may see. He tells how Lucy Harris demanded to see them, sent Flanders Dyke to steal Martin's copy of the characters, and searched the Smiths' ground in Harmony for two weeks. Gerrit asks why someone would work so hard to find something they say isn't real.

Who comes upJoseph SmithLucy HarrisMartin HarrisLucy Mack SmithFlanders DykeNewel K. WhitneyDavid WhitmerJohn WhitmerIsaac HaleBrigham Young
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The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

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Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. In our last episode, I said that we were going to get into the three and Eight Witnesses.
Gerrit I feel like you were just throwing ideas out there.
Richard We didn't come close to covering it.
Gerrit We did talk about the Book of Mormon.
Richard We did, we did. We talked about the title page, something that people would have been able to use in their gospel doctrine studies, and they were come following these studies several weeks ago. Now, this week, we will get to the three and Eight Witnesses.
Gerrit Well, let's not get ahead of ourselves.
Richard Okay, well, let's get to the Phebe Draper mailbag here. We have, again, several wonderful emails. This one comes to us from Holly Missionary and Richard Question. Wonder how this made it to the top of the list.
Gerrit Interesting, so it was directed to just you, and suddenly we're reading it.
Richard Interesting. Please send the Google Drive info to my nephew, Elder so-and-so. He is currently serving in Chicago. In a previous podcast, and I have done that, Holly, in a previous podcast, Richard listed his church pet peeves, which are lesion.
Gerrit Oh, there are a lot.
Richard There are a lot. And by the way, the main takeaway there is I need to get over myself and probably be a little bit kinder, extend a little bit more.
Gerrit Not when you hear what they are. You'll agree with them.
Richard Well, and pet peeves is just one of those things where you're just kind of like, okay, all right, here we are. Among those listed were people calling area authorities, general authorities. I think we did a-
Gerrit Yeah, we did like a hard episode on that. That was therapy for Richard.
Richard It was, it was. Again, general authorities, wonderful. Area authorities, also wonderful, but they are two separate things.
Gerrit But then we had to have a discussion about area presidencies, which did involve general authorities. And then it kind of-
Richard But sometimes also could include area authorities.
Gerrit Which also does include area authorities.
Richard It's true, I know, it got gray. He also mentioned on his list was people ending their testimonies wrong. You have me scared. Am I doing it wrong? Please explain.
Gerrit Do you realize everybody listening is like, what if Richard thinks I'm an apostate because I don't know how to bear my testimony the right way?
Richard Well, so in this, and when I say pet peeve, I mean, this is one of those things that it's not-
Gerrit Don't let him undersell it. It really drives him crazy.
Richard Well, okay, so when we close a prayer, who is it that we're talking to? We're speaking to Heavenly Father. And so when we close the prayer, we say in the name of thy son, Jesus Christ, because thy implies that it's God's son. When we are bearing our testimony, we are talking to the congregation and not talking to God. I mean, I guess he could hear us and so is aware of-
Gerrit Not even, I guess. Yes, he is.
Richard Sure, yes, yes. You're very definitive on that point.
Gerrit I'm pretty certain that God knows everything. Let me go Calvinist on you for just a minute. God knows everything.
Richard So yes, of course God hears us. And of course, technically, I suppose, but we aren't talking to God like we are in a prayer. We're speaking to the congregation. And so what happens sometimes, and this happens with children. With children, it's adorable because they're learning and they're figuring it out. And this isn't the pet peeve of mine.
Gerrit So now you're not only saying that this bothers you, you're saying that the people who do do it are children.
Richard No, no, no. That's good, that's good. No, children do it probably the most because they're not used to these kinds of things. But occasionally you'll have an adult that will close their testimony.
Gerrit Not their prayer, but their testimony.
Richard Their testimony, right? So they talk about their trip that they went on to.
Gerrit So it's just like every other testimony.
Richard I went to Tennessee and we went to Graceland.
Gerrit And we were gonna try to go by the temple, but we didn't have time.
Richard That's true.
Gerrit And then they say in the name of.
Richard And then they say, in the name of thy son, Jesus Christ, amen. They close a testimony the same way that they would close a prayer. And so it's just that they aren't aware, they obviously aren't aware of what they're saying and they're trying to use the language that we would use in a prayer, in a testimony, but he's not my son. And so that is a bit of a faux pas.
Gerrit When you say it like that, it seems petty.
Richard Oh, it's insanely petty. Oh my gosh. No, in fact, I get in trouble occasionally. My wife unfortunately listens to these podcasts.
Gerrit But usually late. So you usually have like a week before she finds out.
Richard Yeah, sometimes even a couple of weeks. And I'm like, okay, I shouldn't have said that.
Gerrit Our best bet is when she's in the room and we're recording, because then she's asleep and she might not go back and listen to it. She'd be like, oh, I heard that one, even though she was asleep the whole time.
Richard Right, but this was one, when I talked about pet peeve, she's like, you come across as just a petulant, petty.
Gerrit Jerk.
Richard Jerk. And I'm like, I didn't mean for it to come across that way because, you know, look, everyone is in different places and everyone's doing their best. And it's the whole to do. And so, and I actually do feel terrible about-
Gerrit Now that we're saying it out loud.
Richard Now, it's sounding it out loud. But the main reason actually that I chose to read this other than it was a tip of the cap to me was I am a premium subscriber who is going back and re-listening to all episodes again. Happy New Year. Who were your Super Bowl picks?
Gerrit Boy, I've been waiting.
Richard Oh boy.
Gerrit She asked the wrong question.
Richard Well, so the question is, who's the best? Who do we think is gonna win versus?
Gerrit Who's the best value?
Richard Who's the best value, right? If you were for entertainment purposes only to look to, well, obviously you wouldn't gamble, obviously, but if you were to say to a friend, hey, I bet this person just saying the words like that. The Niners are the favorites. Baltimore, slightly behind them, which is interesting because I think the Ravens beat them by 400 points in, I keep calling it candlestick. I mean, it'll always be candlestick to me. Anyway, so I mean, Ravens Niners, that seems to be the favorites going in. Now, this episode is before the next round.
Gerrit It's before the Super Bowl, basically. By the time it drops, we'll already be past two rounds of the playoffs.
Richard I mean, we're currently recording this as the Eagles are currently losing to the Buccaneers, right? So who knows what could happen?
Gerrit So notice he doesn't bet on the Eagles now.
Richard Of the Eagles, boy, they are on a tailspin. They won in six in their last games, but they lose the Bucs here.
Gerrit They have an incredible collapse. They are the tower of battle.
Richard I would, it's always tough to go against the Chiefs. I don't know, just a huge, who doesn't love Andy Reid? Plenty of people, but I love Andy Reid. I would pick the Chiefs. They're probably gonna lose before this podcast comes out, but I'm picking the Chiefs.
Gerrit I like how we immortalize your bad picks. I like that you pick it, and then like two weeks from now, when they have already lost.
Richard When this comes out, they might have already lost to the Bills. They're going up to Buffalo.
Gerrit What if they lose like 45 to three?
Richard They're gonna get absolutely curb-stopped, just destroyed. Well, the receivers can't catch the ball, but I don't know. Patrick Mahomes, Andy Reid, it's happening. Chiefs versus the Lions in the Super Bowl. Chiefs win. That's the pick.
Gerrit Okay, well, what's our next email?
Richard Our next email comes from Daniel. It's Rick D's Top 38 Polygamy Facts. Message, Dear Dr. Dream Pressure. This is from our Rick Duke's Top 40.
Gerrit Is that?
Richard It's Rick Duke's Top 40. People like lists. We're trying to give the people what they want. The people cry out. They want lists. We're trying to give them more lists. Considering the way the podcast is trending, I expect by the time you actually get to season 38, it will be a 38 part episode where Richard hits his Top 38 Polygamy Facts. And then Gerrit tells him why each one isn't actually true or that's just part of it. Either way, I'm young and in 34 years, when you get to polygamy, it will be just when my yet unborn children need to start having children of their own. Well, I will say, Daniel, I do have a Top 5 Polygamy Facts.
Gerrit I have not seen these or vetted them or have any idea what he's about to say.
Richard So first of all, OLI, outside looking in, we have-
Gerrit On a polygamy fact?
Richard Oh yeah, that's Top 5, so it's OLI. OLI, October 6th, 1890, official declaration one manifesto was accepted by the church leading to the end of the practice of plural marriage. So that's outside looking in.
Gerrit So outside looking in is our actual official doctrine on plural marriage.
Richard Yes, that's outside looking, OLI.
Gerrit I can't wait to find out what made the list.
Richard Number five, the head of the Republic of Chechnya is a polygamist and he has three wives and speaks out positively about the practice.
Gerrit Okay, how about that? That's hard to believe.
Richard Ramzan Khadrava?
Gerrit Kheterov? What's his name again?
Richard Khaderov.
Gerrit Khaderov, yeah. But hard to believe that a warlord dictator strongman would be practicing it.
Richard Yeah, well that's why it's number five.
Gerrit Oh, okay, good.
Richard Number four, there are 22 countries currently that practice polygamy but cap it at four wives.
Gerrit Ah, yes.
Richard They put that, it's a hard cap. It's like the NFL versus baseball.
Gerrit Right. So is there a luxury tax? You could pay more for a fifth wife.
Richard Well, in other countries possibly, but it's a hard cap.
Gerrit Okay, hard cap at four.
Richard That's right. Number three, in Chad, it's legal and common even among Christians. So even among Christians, it is a common practice in the country of Chad. There you go. Number two, 27 countries where it's currently illegal, but it's either decriminalized or just really in no way enforced, which is the same way of saying decriminalized. So the United States is an example. There are people that practice polygamy, but it is-
Gerrit They will get prosecuted.
Richard Especially in Utah.
Gerrit Yeah, in Utah, it's a quick way to get prosecuted.
Richard That's right. But there are, number one, of the Rick Dukes weekly top five-
Gerrit Weekly top 40.
Richard There are currently 53 countries that have polygamy as a legal practice in their country. 53 countries. So it's roughly one fourth of the world's countries have polygamy as a legal practice.
Gerrit So hopefully when we get to season 38, we're in those markets.
Richard Oh yeah, we're huge in Yemen.
Gerrit Yeah, where are we at in Chad?
Richard We're killing it in Chad.
Gerrit In Chad we're just, we're-
Richard I don't think Albania made the list. That's actually coming up here. I believe Daniel's brother is in, yeah, his brother is in Albania. I'll have to check and see where we are in Albania. I would forward this. Anyway, Daniel, thank you for your kind email and we sent access to the show to your brother on his mission in Albania and he's listening and enjoying it and so there's, we're getting plays in Albania.
Gerrit That's what we need. We need everything in Eastern Europe we can get.
Richard This last email comes to us from Dave. When did Joseph know he was a prophet? That is a great question. Yes, this may be a weird question, but when did Joseph Smith know he was a prophet? Last week, I rewatched the recent Witnesses film about the Three Witnesses, which by the way has a moment when Joseph appears to club an attacker with the plates in a sack.
Gerrit It's amazing.
Richard And there was a moment when David Whitmer, as the narrator, says something like, Joseph finished the translation of the Book of Mormon and thought his work was done, but the Lord had more for him to do. It had not occurred to me before, but I guess I only think of him as a prophet from my perspective, and there isn't something I see in his accounts in the standard works about being a prophet. Since he was only going one step at a time, he would only know what he was told, not the end of his story. That's a great point, by the way. Is there any light you can shed on when Joseph actually was told or realized he would be functioning as a prophet of the Lord?
Gerrit Wow, so there's a lot of ways I could answer this, but because we promised people the witnesses, I'm not gonna try to answer every possible way, but there really, I mean, there really are a lot of ways that you could go with this. First and foremost, the only time we can be certain that Joseph doesn't know what's about to happen next is when he's in the Grove and Heavenly Father and Jesus appeared. Now, Brigham Young makes it very clear in his speaking after that, that when God and Jesus first appeared to Joseph, Joseph, they didn't tell him everything. They didn't say, okay, Joseph, now you're gonna eventually find some plates, you're going to translate them and you're gonna receive revelations and you're gonna establish God's church on earth. Brigham Young says that if they would have tried to tell Joseph, the young 14 year old, this is all of the things that you're going to do, it would have been too much.
Gerrit Joseph would have said, what does that mean? You are talking in a way that I can't understand. So at least the way Brigham Young perceives the First Vision is that Joseph Smith was told that God had a work for him to do, that he'd be the means of doing something, but essentially was told that your sins are forgiven you and the Lord is pleased with you. But that doesn't say all the things are going to happen. The next area of gray area that we have is we know that the angel Moroni appears to Joseph and he says many things to him. We don't exactly know what the angel Moroni tells him. He tells him about the gold plates. Does he tell him that the process of translating those plates is in and of itself a prophetic undertaking?
Gerrit Now, you all know because you've read the Book of Mormon or at least you'll eventually read this part in the Book of Mormon this year that a seer is greater than a prophet, right? Someone who has the ability to translate ancient languages through the gift and power of God is listed as being greater than a prophet in Mosiah. So therefore, we all understand that that power of translation is something that is a prophetic ability, but Joseph wouldn't know that yet. In fact, we don't even know how much of what Moroni told him Joseph fully understood. Now Joseph meets with him not just that night, right? As we've talked about in our many part Moroni, I mean, how many parts of Moroni did we end up having?
Richard I think it was five with one addendum.
Gerrit Okay, so we talked about how it took him a long time to get the plates, and each year he's meeting with Moroni at least one more time. And the contents of those discussions, we don't really know. The reality is, maybe Moroni was telling him things like, as you translate this, you are going to be called to be a prophet. Next, you have the keys that are bestowed upon Joseph as he's translating the Book of Mormon, both the keys from John the Baptist, and then you have the keys from Peter, James and John. So at the very least by the summer of 1829, Joseph knows that he's an apostle because he's been ordained an apostle by the hands of Peter, James and John. Now, would that mean that he considers himself a prophet?
Gerrit Right? You can see that. Maybe not, especially given the fact that the Christian world would use the term apostle. Sometimes it just means teacher. Sometimes it just means someone who's devoted to Christ. At the same time, there's a pretty definitive point in which the Lord makes it very clear, depending on what your definition of what a prophet is, and that's in Doctrine and Covenants, Section 21. So this is right as the church is founded, April 6, 1830. You have Articles and Covenants, which is D&C 20, which is presented to everyone, and Joseph is presented, ordained, as the first elder of the church. And what does that say? Verse 1, Behold, there shall be a record kept among you, and in it thou shalt be called a seer, a translator, a prophet, an apostle of Jesus Christ, an elder of the church through the will of God the Father, and the grace of your Lord Jesus Christ.
Gerrit So there, it's pretty definitive at that point. Joseph by the Lord is being declared that he will be called a prophet and an apostle. Now, what does that mean? Do the people know what that means? Well, when we say you're a prophet, does that just mean that you're a really important Christian teacher? No, the Lord clarifies that even further. Doctrine and Covenants, section 21, verse 4. Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments, which he shall give unto you, as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me. For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, and all patience and faith. So I think Doctrine and Covenants, section 21, is the place where we can be definitive. The Lord is calling Joseph a prophet. Now Joseph is relatively hesitant in his life to make references to himself as the prophet.
Richard I would imagine, right?
Gerrit I mean, yeah, he's not walking around like, I'm a prophet.
Richard He doesn't like to poke fun at false prophets.
Gerrit He loves to make fun of false prophets. And to tell them that they are priests of all, and they should call down fire. Maybe you should cut yourself. But there are some places where that does happen. Where he makes specific reference to himself as being a prophet. But more often it is other people that are making that reference as well. I mean, if you think about it with President Nelson, how often does President Nelson stand up and say, hey, just so you know, I'm the prophet?
Richard I've always thought that was interesting, right? So other apostles will certainly say that. And he doesn't say, you know, he doesn't like, oh, guys, oh, shucks.
Gerrit You guys are good boys.
Richard But he also, you know, there is a level of, as I could only imagine, a humility that comes with not wanting to necessarily, you know, invoke a prophetic utterance all the time you're speaking.
Gerrit Yeah, and I think that that is pretty similar to Joseph. I mean, look, when push comes to shove, Joseph will, in fact, you know, admit or say that he is a prophet because the Lord has declared in that in Doctrine and Covenants, Section 21. But you don't have him constantly referring to himself. Now, you have a lot of other people, even in church documents, referring to him as that. You just don't have Joseph always saying every time he speaks, I'm Joseph Smith, the prophet, and I'm, you know, you just don't have that. There are occasions where you do get that. For instance, here's the minutes of a church meeting from 1835. And this is how the minutes record what's going on. They testified they'd examine the lectures that were contained in it and that he believed them beyond a doubt, and the revelations contained in it he knew were true.
Gerrit For God had testified to him by his Holy Spirit, for many of them were given under his roof and in his presence through President Joseph Smith, the prophet of the Lord. So that is how Newell K. Whitney is testifying about Joseph Smith. He is saying, I know that these revelations are true because some of them he received in my house, you know, under my roof. And then he references Joseph Smith Jr. the prophet of the Lord. So you certainly have a lot of early documents where other members make that reference. But a Joseph Smith document where he makes a self-aware reference, you have, again, you could easily claim Doctrine and Covenants section 18, because that's the one in which Joseph is called to be an apostle. And so someone could make the argument, well, once he's an apostle, an apostle is a prophet.
Gerrit That's what we ordain our apostles to be today, is a prophet, seer and revelator. But we ordain them that today because of section 21 of the Doctrine and Covenants, which declares that he is all those things. So I don't know that I could be definitive. It's something that's a little bit up in the air. I think it's very safe to say that Joseph has no idea what's about to unfold when he's in the Sacred Grove. And even as he has the plates, isn't fully aware of everything that's going to happen. You know, a movie is going to take a little bit of artistic license, you know, and for dramatic pause, say, you know, those of thought, you know, we thought our work was done, but it was just beginning. I understand why someone says that is kind of a, it's a foreshadowing that, you know, there's a lot more of Mormonism yet to come. Yet at the same time, I mean, they're well aware that they're going to establish a church because they've actually received a revelation commanding them what day they're supposed to organize the church on.
Richard But you have said in previous episodes, even prior to the translation, that he possibly thinks he's not going to be the one that's even doing the translating.
Gerrit There's at least some, I mean, the angel tells him he's going to be the means of bringing it forth, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he is going to be the one performing the miracle. And so there's at least some question, again, this is not definitive, but they do seek out other scholars of what they believe to be ancient American languages to try to see if they can translate the record. So maybe Joseph doesn't even realize it first. I mean, at least that's the way Joseph presents it in his history, that you send Martin Harris off with the characters. He meets with, you know, Anthony, I cannot read a sealed book, and he comes back and gives them back to Joseph. And Joseph's response is, I am not learned. Right? I mean, that doesn't suggest that Joseph was like, oh yeah, I got this. Instead, the way Joseph talks about it is, what do you mean me?
Gerrit Of course, I can't do this. I don't have the ability to do that. So I don't know at what point he fully recognizes that. It's clear that there are things that Joseph isn't aware of because God hasn't revealed them. We've made mention of it multiple times on this podcast that Joseph didn't fully understand how everyone would have an opportunity to be saved and also everyone had to be baptized in order to be saved. Joseph doesn't understand how that's possible. He doesn't understand how it's possible because God hasn't revealed it yet how it's possible. And so it comes a little bit at a time until eventually the doctrine of baptism for the dead is fully revealed. But Joseph doesn't know that in 1833. He doesn't know it in 1834. By 1832, Joseph Smith has had a vision of the celestial kingdom. So he knows more about the celestial kingdom than literally anyone living on earth, and yet doesn't understand exactly how people get to that celestial kingdom.
Gerrit A lot of times we want prophets to know everything. We want them to know things before they know them. And yet this is a great example that they only know things as God reveals them. But I think resting your anchor on section 21 is a pretty good anchor. There he is, the Lord, the voice of the Lord declares that Joseph is a prophet, seer and revelator. And how is that prophet going to function? That this generation will have God's word through Joseph and the church was commanded to obey that. So that's from the very beginning. The idea that you follow a prophet, it isn't just a song you learn in primary. It is the basis of church membership on the day the church is founded and that every person there understands. That's one of the reasons why I find it very frustrating that there are members of the church today who will denigrate prophetic authority if that prophet doesn't seem to say what they want them to say.
Gerrit Well, the entire church's basis is that Jesus Christ has called a prophet and we follow that prophet. Why? Because that prophet tells us what Jesus wants us to know. That's the basis of the church. And yes, the entire point of the church is that it's Jesus' church and Jesus in His church has called a prophet. And that's why we follow a prophet. Arguing that you can be a member of the church but not follow the prophet kind of suggests that we don't even really know what it is we belong to. Because Doctrine and Covenants section 21, from the day one of the church, from the first organization, is being a member of this church means following God's prophet. That's what it means. People try to rationalize away from that, try to get away from it, try to find another way so that they can not have to believe the things.
Gerrit I mean, I get it, we're all sinners, so none of us follow the prophet perfectly. But there is a very big difference between sinning and having to repent and recognizing your sin and arguing that what the prophet is teaching is false. I may not be able to keep all the commandments, or at least I don't keep them all. I'm sure I'm not able to. That was a pretty good giveaway, wasn't it?
Richard I'm not able. I'm able to keep most of them.
Gerrit I know that a lot of you are designed to be able to keep the commandments and stuff, but I'm not. That's what I was going for. I'm hoping Angie listens to this and goes, Oh, that explains it. You just have the ability to keep the commandments. God made him different.
Richard Made him a jerk.
Gerrit Yeah. Wait a minute. Back to my point, though, there is a huge difference between being a sinner, which we all are, knowing what the commandments are and failing at them because we're sinners, and rejecting prophetic authority because you don't want to hear what God has to say. Those aren't the same thing. Someone who is striving to live the gospel as the Lord's prophet outlines it is very different than someone who says, well, the Lord's prophet didn't say what I wanted him to say, so therefore he's not really a prophet in this case. Those are galaxies apart from one another. So that's what I would give in response to that.
Richard I think that was a great answer. That was very well done.
Gerrit I think that makes up half of our podcast today, but let's jump into some Witnesses.
Richard Hey, we're going to get to it.
Gerrit Well, maybe. Is there anything else we want to talk about?
Richard I have a couple more OLIs on polygamy, but I think we should get right to it.
Gerrit All right, we're going right to the Witnesses then. So I think there is a real... something we don't talk about a lot, although you will hear about it, is just what burden is on Joseph Smith from the time he finally gets the plates. Now remember, go listen to all the Moroni episodes. It is a very long and difficult process for him to actually get the plates. Once he has the plates, there is another gigantic burden that's weighing on him. And I don't just mean that he's punching guys in the woods that are trying to steal the plates. It's that in this hugely schizophrenic world that he lives in, he is at one point having people tell him that he's a liar and that he doesn't have any plates, and at another point having to physically defend himself against people who are trying to hurt or kill him in order to steal the plates that no one claims that he has.
Gerrit You know, it is pretended, as we talked about last episode with the title page. It's pretended that he found some plates. It's pretended this. It's pretended that. Well, if it's so pretended, why are you breaking into my dad's house? Why are you trying to beat me up to steal them from me? Why are you ransacking the barn and the Cooper shop looking for the things that are so pretended, if it's pretended? Why are you raising a mob outside of Palmyra to stop his wagon and then the plates are buried in the bottom of a barrel of beans being hidden? I mean, that's a schizophrenic reaction, right? You either have them and I'm going to kill you to get them, or you're a liar and you've never had them at all. Those are pretty, that's about as far away on the spectrum as you could possibly get. What if there's, oh, you have them, but they're not from God? Nope, that wasn't anywhere on the spectrum. Or, you know, you're telling the truth, but you just dream them up.
Gerrit You're being honest, but you didn't really, you just think you have them, but you don't, which is also kind of hard to, how can you think you have a giant bag of plates? But anyway, this other burden that Joseph has is that he's not allowed to show these plates to anyone. Now, think about that. He's trying to convince people that God has given him plates, that God has commanded him to take care of these plates, God has commanded him to translate these plates, and he's not allowed to show them even to Emma. He's not allowed to show them to anyone. So while he's trying to convince people that the plates exist, imagine what one of the very first questions is from every single person that he tells about the gold plates. What do you think the first question is, Richard?
Richard Can I see them?
Gerrit Can I see the plates? That's the most natural, frankly, it's the question I would ask Joseph right now, if I said, hey, can I see the plates? No, no, no, I thought you would know better than that. And so, this desire to see the plates isn't just driven by people who want a bolstering of their faith. Let's talk about someone who desires to see the plates so badly that it causes her to turn on Joseph Smith. And I'm of course talking about Lucy.
Richard Max Smith?
Gerrit No.
Richard Oh, that would have been an upset.
Gerrit I'm pretty sure that we would...
Richard Oh, Lucy Harris.
Gerrit I'm pretty sure we would know if Lucy Max Smith denounced her son.
Richard What a surprise ending of her book.
Gerrit She gets all the way to the end of it. You know, that is kind of similar to John Whitmer's history that he wrote. Because John Whitmer started writing the history while he was a faithful member, but he didn't finish it until he had been excommunicated. And so, if you read the whole first part of it, if you read the whole first part, it's all miracles and Joseph and everything's wonderful. And you read the very end of it, it's all like, yeah, that's what they said happened. It's all bitter and angry. But just so everyone listening is aware, no Lucy Max Smith did not turn on her son. But Lucy Harris is one of the first people that they approach about the plates. And Lucy Max Smith does talk about this. I know it's unfortunate they're both named Lucy. It's like the worst thing ever. And then to make matters even more complicated, Lucy Harris named her daughter Lucy, who also factors into some discussions.
Gerrit And so it's Lucy, Lucy, Lucy everywhere. It's Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds. But Lucy Smith actually goes to see Martin Harris, wants to talk to Martin Harris about the plates and obviously potentially financing the translation. And Lucy Harris is the one that meets her at the door. And it's funny because Lucy Smith is like, I didn't really want to talk to her because I knew she was an unpleasant woman, basically, is what she says. Lucy Harris and Lucy Smith, obviously not the best of friends. Well, when they arrange a meeting for Martin Harris because he was busy at the time, Lucy Harris says to Lucy Smith, I am coming to see him too, and I will be there Tuesday afternoon and stop over that night accordingly. She came as soon as she came in, and as soon as she came in and was well-seated, she began to importune my son as to the truth of what he said, declaring that she would see the gold plates if he really had any, and she was resolved to help him in publishing them.
Gerrit So now, Lucy Harris is seen as an antagonist to the church for a lot of reasons, but in this very early interview, she says that she is going to give money to get them published if Joseph has them, and says, show them to me. Think about that. Joseph, early on, and remember, I don't know how many podcasts I'd have to have you go back to listen to, just how desperately poor the Smiths are. They are incredibly poor, and they go talk to one of the more well-to-do families in Palmyra. They are not even close to being on the same social scale. Lucy Harris is well-off and well-respected. The Smiths are day laborers who are about to lose their own home because they can't make the payments on it. It is, they are not in the same socioeconomic circles, and therefore they're not in the same, they're not in the same societal circles.
Gerrit They're not in the same class, if you were to put it that way. And so Lucy Harris very positively is saying, show me the plates and I will pay for everything. You don't even need Martin, I'll pay for it, right? Joseph told her that she was mistaken, that she could not see them as he was not permitted to exhibit them to anyone except those whom the Lord will appoint to testify of them as to assistance. I always prefer dealing with men rather than their wives. This is what, at least Lucy says, Joseph says, right? Something to that regard. This highly displeased Mrs. Harris, for she was a woman who peaked herself upon her superiority to her husband. Well, now Joseph, she said, you're not telling me a lie. Can you look me full in my eye and say before God that you in reality found the record as you pretend? Notice that word again.
Gerrit As you pretend, he said indifferently, why yes, Mrs. Harris, I would assume look into your face and say so as not, if you would be at all gratified by it. Now Joseph said, she, I will tell you what I will do. If I can get a witness that you do speak the truth, I will believe it. And I want to do something about the translation, and I mean to help you anyway. She went to bed and in the morning told us a very remarkable dream she had. So she goes, it goes on and tells this whole story. But so now she's saying, okay, she's not giving up completely that if she can get a witness from someone else that he has the plates, then she would, she would listen. But it's obviously not going to be the case. As Martin Harris is going to give Joseph $50, which is a considerable sum. I remember the average American is making around $200 a year, maybe $250 a year.
Gerrit Martin Harris gives him $50. That's, that's a lot.
Richard Yeah, it's a fifth of his income.
Gerrit Yeah, it's a lot of money.
Richard A fourth to a fifth of his income.
Gerrit Or as I like to say, as a historian, still a lot of money. Just so everyone's aware.
Richard $50 now.
Gerrit $50.
Richard Current runaway inflation.
Gerrit $50 right now. A ton of money. I would stop my car for any day of the week. Martin Harris gives the money, but of course, Lucy Harris is not terribly happy with that transaction. Not happy that she wasn't allowed to see it. Not happy that Joseph can't give a witness. What witness can Joseph give? It's not like Joseph can say, okay, well, Martin's going to see him. And then Martin can tell you. Eventually, Martin Harris is going to become a witness, but he's not a witness right away. And so Joseph is in this terribly isolated place where every single person who finds out about the gold plates, the first question out of their mouth is show that or statement, show me the plates or can I see the plates? And every single time Joseph has to say, well, you can't see the plates.
Gerrit Well, what does that make people say? I mean, if I'm going around telling people, you wouldn't believe it. I found an original 1830 Book of Mormon. It's amazing. It's the most, the highest quality. I'm so excited that I have, oh, can I see it? No, no, I don't let anyone see it. Well, why can't I see it? Nope, nope, no one's allowed to see it. I mean, the natural reaction of people is maybe you don't actually have it is the reason why you won't let anyone even see it. Joseph, of course, says, well, God has commanded me. I can't show them to anyone. But still, for people who are skeptical on the other side, the reality is they're going to feel like maybe they're being deceived. When Lucy Harris comes with her husband down to Harmony to visit Joseph, at this point, she's pretty much an antagonist. At this point, she is already paid.
Gerrit Well, not paid. I mean, I guess that's not the right way. I mean, she's she's bargained with a local man by the name of Flanders Dyke, which is, I mean, that's a pretty good name. It's a memorable name.
Richard These names back then are tremendous.
Gerrit I feel like long after this podcast is dead, Richard will remember Flanders Dyke.
Richard Yeah, that's great. Philastus Hurlbut, Flanders Dyke. These are great names.
Gerrit Eber Howe.
Richard Eber Howe.
Gerrit Egbert Grandin. Egbert Grandin, I mean.
Richard Tremendous.
Gerrit Yeah. You don't get 17 people in the same name, Mike. Nope, you're not getting that. Not even Mike, our friend, who's only listening to this if they happen to be driving somewhere with Tammy and she's forcing him to.
Richard Usually to Farron.
Gerrit Yeah. If they're driving anywhere, Tammy, I think it's like the way she punishes him.
Richard Yeah. She's like, I have to go to Farron. You're listening to the podcast. Yeah.
Gerrit If I have to go to your homeland, we probably shouldn't have said where he's from because there's only like four people live in Farron and that means everyone will figure out which Mike we're talking about.
Richard Yeah. Well, to your point, even in Farron, there's seven or eight Mikes.
Gerrit That's the reality. That's how often the days are repeated. Flanders Dyke is a suitor to her daughter, Lucy. Oh, there we go.
Richard We got Lucy back.
Gerrit I told you we're going to get another Lucy in this story. Lucy Harris and Martin Harris have a daughter and just to make church history more confusing, they named their daughter Lucy. Well, Flanders Dyke is someone who is also not of the same socioeconomic class as the Harrises, but he has shown a great deal of interest in courting young Lucy Harris. Well, according to Lucy Smith, I'm just trying to say the word Lucy as many times as I can, Lucy Harris, of course, was in no way okay with Flanders Dyke trying to court her daughter, right? He's, you're not the same class. I'm not okay with it. Lucy, the daughter, and Martin both seem to kind of like the guy, but Lucy Harris, absolutely not. Until, well, until this whole kerfuffle with Joseph about the plates. Because Martin Harris, they've drawn some of the characters off of the plates at this point.
Gerrit So they have some characters that they've drawn off, and Martin Harris has a copy of a sheet of characters from the gold plates. Well, Lucy Harris says to Flanders Dyke, tell you what I'm going to do. Don't want to go give you snakes. If you will come into my house at some point when Martin isn't here, steal the copy of the characters that he has, make a copy of it, and then bring that back and give me that copy, then I'll drop my objections and you can marry my daughter. Now point of fact, they do get married in 1829. So we know that at least on the tail end, Lucy Harris and Flanders Dyke get married in May of 1829.
Richard Do we know what his profession was? He was a...
Gerrit I mean, he's eventually going to be a farmer, but yeah.
Richard Okay, so he wasn't like some sort of mastermind thief?
Gerrit I think he became one. Yeah, he was obviously also a linguist and a copyist. He was a plagiarizer. He ran turnitin.com. I don't know what he did. He did lots of things throughout the course of his life, and like most people who's young, I mean, he's working however he can, right? At any rate, so what did Lucy Harris do? So when Martin Harris is on his way down to visit Joseph, of course, anyone who asks him, where is he going? Martin Harris is very excited. I'm Joseph Smith, gold plates, da-da-da-da-da. And he'll pull out that character's document to try to prove to people, look, see, it's a way of Martin Harris proving that these plates are real. Where do you think these characters came from? He hasn't seen the plates themselves, but he does have a paper that has characters drawn or etched off of the plates. And every time he did, Lucy Harris would pull out her copy and be like, Martin's not the only one who has copies of those.
Gerrit See, I have them too. It's not really that special, right? In effect, undermining him. As if, you know, Becky were to come on the podcast and give her bets on who was going to win the games.
Richard She couldn't do worse.
Gerrit Well, she is a Dallas Cowboys fan. She could have done worse. Guaranteed she picked the Cowboys to win that game. How was that in your house, that game?
Richard It was very funny. The first of the year is very busy with youth interviews and ordinations and different things. So it was a long Sunday. It was about an 11-hour day. I came home and I walked in and the bears, that's who I...
Gerrit The bears are always losing. It's muscle memory for Richard to say the bears were losing.
Richard That's my team, the bears. Come in, how's the Cowboys game? I don't want to talk about it.
Gerrit Especially against the powerhouse that is the Green Bay Packers. But you know what, Jordan Love, I'm an Aggie. Richard's an Aggie.
Richard I went there.
Gerrit Well, you didn't get your degree there, but Angie and I are both true Aggies.
Richard As is Becky.
Gerrit Becky, also an Aggie.
Richard I was married there, not a true Aggie. My wife's a true Aggie, so go ahead and do the math on that.
Gerrit I don't want to do the math. I feel like doing the math might hurt our friendship. So on their way down to Joseph Smith's house, she's already become fairly antagonistic, but she is still driven by that idea. I am going to see those plates. Now notice again how schizophrenic this is. I'm certain that Joseph has plates, but I'm also trying to undermine what he's saying God told him about the plates.
Richard It is interesting, right? Because I would also have likely as being a faithless, godless monster like Lucy Harris.
Gerrit You are a Bears fan.
Richard That if someone were to say something like that, I'd be like, all right, sure. But to your point, there is something that with just those characters, where they come from, it's enough for her to think.
Gerrit Now, you said you said etched like there's also it's possible you could have you did it by doing a rubbing.
Richard Okay. But we don't know if it was a if it was a rubbing or if they just copied them now.
Gerrit You we don't know whatever Martin would have had in his possession is almost certainly a copy of whatever they copied directly from the plates. Because Joseph is the only one who's allowed to see the plates. So he draws the characters off or etches them off. However, it happens. And then, you know, maybe he's doing the same thing we did with the hymnals when you know, in church when you had nothing to do and you put a paper over and did the same thing.
Richard Yes, I did.
Gerrit Yeah. Because you were preparing for gold plates.
Richard That's exactly right.
Gerrit Yeah. But he would have, you know, Lucy Smith or possibly Martin Harris would have made a copy of Joseph's copy that he made.
Richard Okay. So rather etched or copied, whatever it is, those characters are enough for her to be like, okay, well, this sounds made up. But man, that there is something there.
Gerrit Well, which is so interesting, right? Because it's one thing for her to just have her copy that she essentially sold her daughter to someone who she didn't think she should marry to. In order to get them, right? But why then is she still so desperate to find the plates? As you'll find out as our story continues. When she reached my son's house, this is Lucy Harris speak. This is Lucy Smith speaking again. When Lucy Harris reached my son's house, when she arrived there, she said she had come to see the plates and she would never leave until she had obtained that object. The next day Joseph was compelled to take them out of the house and bury both the breastplate and the record, for she began ransacking every nook and corner of the house, every chest, cupboard, trunk, etc. The day after, so the first day she's down there, this is the kind of house guest you want, right? She's rifling through every single thing in the house to try to find the gold plates.
Gerrit So Joseph, you know, maybe when she's not looking I guess, takes them from their hiding spot, takes them out behind his house and he buries them in the ground. So once she realizes they're not in the house, he must have buried them outside, right? So then she's going to go out. The next day she went out and hunted the ground over adjacent to the house. She kept up the search until 2 o'clock in the afternoon. I don't know when she started, but let's say she started at 8 a.m. For six hours, she's looking all over trying to find where they are buried. She's obsessed with seeing the plates, right? And again, it's a very weird thing, right? I believe that he has them, but I don't believe that God told him to not show them to me, even though if he has them, he got them from an angel.
Gerrit You can see that kind of disconnect. We think that's a pretty weird logical disconnect, but we see that logical disconnect all the time. I hear people all the time say things like, well, the church is false. My family is going to be together forever regardless. Oh yeah, who told you that? Because it wasn't a Christian, just so you're aware. In fact, on the Mormon Research Ministry website, which is an anti-Mormon website that attacks our church, one of the major false doctrines that they attack is the idea that families will be together forever. We're all just the family of God, and when we die, we all just become part of the family of God. We're not families in heaven.
Richard It kind of hurts that they still call us Mormons and not Latter-day Saints.
Gerrit You know, it's funny that they didn't decide to become the Latter-day Saint Research Ministry.
Richard That's interesting. You think that they would respect...
Gerrit Yeah, they would respect prophetic utterance. It's surprising to me also that they don't respect prophetic utterance as much as I thought they would. So, she's out here doing this so much. She is, of course, angry, right? As Lucy Smith writes, when she came in very ill-natured, a very kind way of saying she's mad, and after warming herself a little, she inquired of Emma if they had snakes there in the wintertime. I was walking around in the woods, said she, to look at the situation of your place, etc. etc. So she's out there, like, digging around trying to find the place.
Richard And saying that she was looking to see if there were snakes?
Gerrit No, I was just, like, walking around just seeing what your place was like for six hours. I mean, she's lying about the fact she's looking for the place. But this is why the snake thing matters. To look at the situation of your place, and as I turned around to come home, a tremendous great black snake stuck its head up before me and commenced hissing at me. That's why she's asking. The woman was so disappointed and perplexed in everything she undertook that she left the house and took lodgings in the house of a nearby neighbor. Here she stated to the hostess that she was in search of the plates, and when she came to a place where she thought they must be buried, upon stooping down to scrape away the snow and the leaves to find the spot, she encountered a horrible black snake which frightened her so sadly that she ran into the house as fast as possible. She continued her operations while she remained in harmony, doing all that she could in her ingenuity that she could contrive to injure Joseph in the estimation of his neighbors.
Gerrit She told them that he was a grand imposter, that he had deceived her husband with his specious pretensions, and was exerting all his deceptive powers in order to induce Mr. Harris to give him his property into Joseph's hands that he might, by robbing her husband, make himself rich. When she returned home, which was in about two weeks from the time she arrived in harmony, she endeavored to dissuade Mr. Harris from having anything further to do with writing or translating the record. But Martin paid little attention to her.
Richard So, I mean, look, there's plenty of people that hate Joseph and the Smiths all on their own, but I wonder how much influence this type of stuff had when Philastus Hurlbut goes back to collect affidavits, if any at all.
Gerrit Well, it certainly does. I mean, first of all, you know, Lucy's going to be part of those Hurlbut affidavits. I mean, part of what's published with Eber Howe. So is Isaac Hale, right? Part of what's published with Eber Howe and Mormonism unveiled. And for the people who don't really know, but it's a very weird and not Christian thing. I mean, again, what's your starting point as a Protestant living in Palmyra or in Harmony? All of God's Word is in the Bible. There is no ministration of angels. There's no angels that are coming to give more scripture. The very fact of Joseph saying God has given more scripture is on its face. That's immediately blasphemy to begin with, right? I don't need to know any more of the story because sola scriptura means there cannot be any more scripture but the Bible. So you don't need a whole lot of nudging at that point. If you are a believer, which most people in Joseph Smith's time are fervent Christians, if you're a believer and someone is claiming an angel of God appeared to them and gave them more scripture, if you're going to also tell me that they're a liar, yeah, of course they are.
Gerrit They're a liar from the very beginning because they say an angel appeared to them because that couldn't have happened because the only scripture is the Bible. So yeah, I think people are predisposed. And then when you have insiders like Isaac Hale and Lucy Harris saying, oh no, he's a liar, he's an imposter, it makes it very easy for these negative things about Joseph to spread. Lucy Harris desperately wanted to see the plates. Of course Martin Harris wanted to see the plates too. The difference is without seeing them, Martin Harris gives $50 to Joseph to help him move to harmony. Martin Harris agrees to help Joseph Smith translate the plates without ever seeing them. He's given a little bit of a witness in the characters that Joseph has copied from the plates. Lucy Harris, with that same witness, that same access to the same information, those same conversations with Joseph, goes the exact opposite route.
Gerrit Again though, the very fact that she's digging all around the Smith's home in Harmony to find the plates means she thinks he has something. And yet won't accept Joseph's explanation about what that something is. Because if Joseph has something, he's telling you exactly where he got it. An angel of God told me to get these plates. I got these plates from an angel. That same angel said I was not allowed to show them to anyone. And she's still out there digging the yard up trying to find those plates. Wouldn't it be most rational to say he clearly doesn't have anything? I mean, what do you think you're going to find when you dig up the nothing that exists? Where are you going to find it? Her actions would make more logical sense if Martin had already seen them.
Gerrit If Martin had seen them and she was like, you didn't really, they aren't real, I want to see them because you're just, you've just been duped, they aren't real. Instead, Martin hasn't seen them. So what is she doing digging the yard up? You'd think she would just assume all of it was a lie. And really this kind of brings us back to the lost 116 pages. The expectation of the people who stole those pages, was that Joseph was going to be able to produce the exact same words again. And that's why they would change the manuscript. They would alter the manuscript so it didn't read the same. That very action, the belief that Joseph could produce the exact same words again, is in and of itself this weird demonstration that they believed he was being honest in his prophetic utterance.
Gerrit Because you can't do that. No one can do that. Anyone who's ever lost a term paper when your computer crashed knows that when you write it the second time, it's not word for word. Even if you have all the same sources, even if you have a really good idea of what you're doing, people who are copying pages, people who copy Bible manuscripts, even when their job is to copy existing literature, make mistakes. They make changes. They leave words out. They insert words. They copy things twice. The people who stole those pages shouldn't have to make any changes to point out the differences. But I think this is the reason why both the preface of the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants, Section 10, are very clear. These people are under the influence of Satan. He is controlling them. And that's why this isn't logical anymore. Because the same thing that says to you, Joseph can produce exactly all the same words of 116 manuscript pages, is also the same thing that should say to you, well, that sounds like the power of God.
Gerrit Maybe we shouldn't try to destroy him. And the same thing that says to you, that Joseph has something so much that you're going to spend two weeks desperately trying to find it, is probably the same thing that should say to you, maybe, just maybe, whatever he has, he actually did get from an angel. And if he did get it from an angel, then are you going to quibble with the fact that the angel commands him not to show it to anybody? Are you going to kick against the pricks in that regard? So early on, this is something that weighs on Joseph's mind. From the very beginning, from the first time he tries to elicit support outside of his family, the question of can I see the plates? And the anger that the negative answer generates, that no, you cannot, is very palpable. And of course, is only going to get worse as people demand he prove that he is who he says he is by means of violating the covenant that he's made with God.
Gerrit So we'll talk more about this in our next episode. So sorry to leave everybody hanging a little bit, but hey, you at least got to hear about the snake and about the bears. Those are the two most important things.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.

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Do you realize everybody listening is like, what if Richard thinks I'm an apostate because I don't know how to bear my testimony the right way?

GerritBanter

When you say it like that, it seems petty.

GerritBanter

I like how we immortalize your bad picks.

GerritBanter

A lot of times we want prophets to know everything. We want them to know things before they know them. And yet this is a great example that they only know things as God reveals them.

GerritInsight

The idea that you follow a prophet, it isn't just a song you learn in primary. It is the basis of church membership on the day the church is founded

GerritInsight

There is a huge difference between being a sinner, which we all are, knowing what the commandments are and failing at them because we're sinners, and rejecting prophetic authority because you don't want to hear what God has to say.

GerritInsight

Well, if it's so pretended, why are you breaking into my dad's house? Why are you trying to beat me up to steal them from me?

GerritInsight

I feel like long after this podcast is dead, Richard will remember Flanders Dyke.

GerritBanter

The bears are always losing. It's muscle memory for Richard to say the bears were losing.

GerritBanter

I mean, what do you think you're going to find when you dig up the nothing that exists?

GerritBanter

More from this episode

Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.

Claim check

What critics say, and what the episode found
Joseph Smith knew from the Sacred Grove onward that he would be a prophet and everything that would follow.
Prophets know everything ahead of time.
Joseph's neighbors simply thought he was lying about the plates.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.

Take it to class

Ready to copy into a lesson or a text

From the day the church was organized, D&C 21 declared Joseph a seer, prophet and apostle and asked members to receive his words as from the Lord's own mouth.

Prophets learn line upon line; they only know things as God reveals them.

Struggling to keep commandments is very different from rejecting prophetic authority because we don't like what was said.

Lucy Harris spent two weeks digging for plates she said didn't exist, which shows how much Joseph's critics believed he had something.

Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.

Banter bin

The running jokes, for people who skip ahead
Witnesses of the Book of Mormon seriesPromised last episode, "let's not get ahead of ourselves," and finally started at the end of this one, with a cliffhanger (0:44-1:10, 30:53, 63:10).
Richard's church pet peevesArea vs. general authorities, and closing a testimony like a prayer; Becky calls him petty (1:29-5:50).
Becky listens lateRichard usually has a week or two before she hears what he said, or she's asleep in the room (5:15-5:21).
Picks with a conscienceFor entertainment purposes only, the Chiefs pick immortalized before they lose; the Eagles are the Tower of Babel (6:15-8:05).
Rick Dukes' Top 40Top five polygamy facts with an OLI that is the actual official doctrine (8:21-11:27).
Polygamy in season 38Daniel's prediction; they're huge in Yemen and killing it in Chad (8:33, 11:46-11:50).
The Moroni series"Five with one addendum" (16:22).
Designed to keep the commandmentsGerrit's slip that he can't keep them all, and Richard's claim to keep most (29:25-29:47).
Lucy, Lucy, LucyLucy Mack Smith, Lucy Harris and her daughter Lucy: "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" (34:37-36:00, 44:03).
Great 19th-century namesFlanders Dyke, Philastus Hurlbut, Eberhau, Egbert Grandin; Farron has seven or eight Mikes (42:57-43:50).
True AggiesGerrit, Angie and Becky are true Aggies; Richard was only married there (48:08-48:24).
The bears are always losingRichard's team, and Becky's Cowboys lose to the Packers (47:40-48:08).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

Your question could be next week’s episode
Questions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
General ConferenceGeneral Conference talks that cite a scripture read in this episode.

In General Conference

Talks from the latest General Conference that cite a scripture this episode reads or names on air
October 2026 General Conference · cites D&C 10The Hour of Your Mission Is ComeBishop Sean DouglasBishop Douglas thanks missionaries of every age and urges the rising generation to place full-time missionary service high on their list.

Summaries, themes and lessons for every talk are on What Did They Say?

Go deeperWhere to read more.

Go deeper

Deep dives the episode points toward
The Witnesses film and its David Whitmer narration (12:21).
The Anthon transcript and the copies of the characters that Martin and Lucy Harris carried (45:05).
The Hurlbut affidavits in Mormonism Unvailed, including Lucy Harris and Isaac Hale (56:15).
John Whitmer's history, written faithful at the start and bitter at the end (34:57).
SOT Litner · S4E4.