The Essential Answers to the Most Important Questions Part 2

Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise, and humor.

Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, professor, nearly doctor, verging on doctor, edging his way towards doctor, Richard laduke.

Richard Well, hello, Gerrit. Thanks for having me back. The last study is all written up. We're ready to conduct it. I'm excited about that. That's gonna happen in the next week or two, and away we go, sir.

Gerrit I mean, it's kind of rough though that you're going to be getting your PhD from Oklahoma State in what is a down year for their football program.

Richard It's really one of the darkest times in my life that that's the case, Gerrit. Yeah.

Gerrit I mean, they lost two games in a row. They were ranked. It's looking a little dicey for them. I'm pretty sure Gundy doesn't have the same level of mullet that he once had. I mean, everything's gone south.

Richard He's a man. He's 53. He doesn't have the same ring to it that I'm a man, I'm 40 does this.

Gerrit I'm a man. I'm 40. Some of our listeners don't know what we're talking about, and that's because you have what we like to call lives. For those of us who have watched college football for much of our lives, the head coach of the Oklahoma State football program had one of the greatest epic rants when there was a newspaper reporter that was publishing unfavorable things.

Richard Well, and the Stillwater newspaper journal, I mean, they come after you. They come hard, and they are aggressive.

Gerrit I've often heard that the three toughest media markets in the country are New York, Los Angeles, Stillwater, Oklahoma. I mean, it's crazy. You'd think that it'd be like San Francisco or Chicago. No, it's Stillwater. Yeah, they're taking names in Stillwater. Hopefully, they're taking your name for a PhD hooding.

Richard They might be. I actually ran in to Coach Gundy at a pizza restaurant. He was waiting for his family to come, and I came up to him and introduced myself.

Gerrit You talked to him?

Richard I did, and I said, hey, I'm a big fan. Really appreciate the work you do, whatever. He was, it sounds like I'm joking. I'm not joking. He had a placemat with a color crayon, and he was coloring, just sitting there waiting, coloring a placemat with a color. My friend, who's in the same cohort that I was in, he's a Texas fan and says, I think he draws up, plays the same way. That's why we keep beating them. I think that was very funny.

Other Oh my goodness.

Gerrit That's right. He was just coloring on a placemat.

Richard He was.

Gerrit Have you seen the clip of the press conference he's in, where he's really annoyed that there's some sound coming from a cooler nearby?

Richard Oh yeah. He thought the compressor was out.

Gerrit He just keeps telling him, yeah, compressor is going out on that. We got to check that. Oh yeah. That's the compressor. To me, he seems like every adult in Idaho that I ever met, because I worked with a bunch of farmers the whole time growing up.

Richard Well, that's why Oklahoma reminds me a lot of Idaho. This is more Gundy talk than I ever anticipated.

Gerrit It's what the people cry out for. We've had dozens and dozens of emails. If you don't talk more about Oklahoma State football coach Mike Gundy, we...

Richard We did get a lovely email from a person from Oklahoma who was very confused that we were talking about Oklahoma at all. She's like, what's going on?

Gerrit She asked whether or not you were from Stillwater. Her assumption was you couldn't possibly be going there. You must be from there to care that much about Stillwater.

Richard It's true. Well, so Gerrit, in the Phebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag, it's an all-missionary thing. As we're celebrating, Ryker shipping off to the MTC.

Gerrit Shipping off by the... He's only got four days left there by the time this drops.

Richard Oh, there you go. So by next week, he's in Tucson.

Gerrit Yeah, where it was a balmy 90 today.

Richard So it's all missionary. The missionary stuff is a lot of fun. The emails that we get are a blast. They have a great sense of humor, a great love for the gospel.

Gerrit And we literally have hundreds of missionaries now listening to the free content. Yeah, I think we're at that point. In fact, at this point, we created the premium content essentially to give to missionaries for free at this point. If you're wondering about the premium content, I know we say this every once in a while, why is there premium content? This all originated because we had very kind, generous people who knew that producing the podcast was a ton of work and a ton of costs. I mean, Apple, this is going to surprise everyone, but Apple doesn't just do things for free. It's very, very, very stunning that when you host a podcast on their platform, they have a giant meat hook that they are dipping into you like, oh, you'd like to put that here? I'm sure you would. And then they just start tearing flesh off. But in a figurative sense. And so we had people who offered to donate money to the podcast. And so we decided, you know, rather than just have people donate money to keep the podcast going for no reason, we would develop this premium content, which was American history, some historic sites, chronological history of the church called Joseph Smith and the Restoration.

Gerrit And so the people, if they wanted to contribute, they could at least get something for the contribution. And then we decided that we would just give that content away to missionaries for free, because every missionary, you know, in Tahiti needs to know how George Washington crossed the Delaware. I think that they're right on the cusp of converting someone in Saigon and Vietnam, but they haven't told them yet about Washington crossing the Delaware.

Richard And part of that actually though was a bit of a tip of the cap to Truman Madsen who Gerrit and I both loved and listened to over and over and over again on our missions as well. And so there was a little bit of that, and it has gotten away from us, but it is a lot of fun to hear from so many different missionaries. So that has been a blast.

Gerrit We are, I mean, choosing to serve, and this isn't just because we have missionaries out. Before we had missionaries out, the fact that these missionaries have chosen to serve, these men and women are out there, building the kingdom of God is the greatest thing that they can do with their lives at this point in their life. And so it's kind of nice that we have something that they actually want that can hopefully be beneficial to them. Now, the only reason they want it is because they're on a mission where they're not allowed to listen to basically anything. And so without MTV, we're the next best thing.

Richard My gosh. Well, so I use this all the time. It's one of my favorites. It's actually in the email signature for, when we respond to emails, it's in my signature from my son Rigdon, Elder LeDuc in Lima, Peru, East Mission. When you have nothing else, Standard of Truth podcast, when you have nothing else to do, it's okay.

Other Yeah.

Richard Which is the highest praise that my son has ever given me.

Other Yeah.

Richard Which is the highest praise that my son has ever given me.

Gerrit We're hoping that we can have that on T-shirts printed up.

Richard It's pretty good. Well, so Gerrit, this first email comes to us from Elder Carney. It says, Hi, I'm a missionary serving in the Fiji Suva mission. I'm sure I pronounced that perfectly. One elder-

Gerrit I mean, you do have a French last name, so shouldn't you get all the French islands?

Richard Yes. One elder said that this might be a good resource to use when I have nothing else to do. Can I please have access to the premium content Google Drive? I promise, I will baptize 100 people if I do.

Gerrit Okay. That's a new bar for the missionaries writing in. If you want premium content, we need to know how many people you're going to baptize.

Richard Well, so I think the joke might be when I told the story about when we went to Peru, and there were those missionaries that were going through the temple and they needed help getting garments or whatever. I said, I'm happy to purchase the garments, but I need you to commit to baptize 100 people each. And they didn't know that I was kidding. My Spanish is so poor. And they seemed a little worried, but they're like, we'll do it. I'm like, oh, I am.

Gerrit You were in Peru, they were probably like another 100? We did 100 the first two months of the mission.

Richard It's true. But that is very funny. So all that we ask, we need the missionary email address. So the missionary.org email. We need, we like to know where you're serving. That's fun. And then now the new commitment is that you will baptize at least a minimum of 100 people. I think that that's a reasonable ask, Gerrit.

Gerrit I think so. A minimum. Especially if you go to somewhere like Wisconsin, where the mission itself doesn't baptize 100.

Richard But I will baptize 100 people if you do and spread the good word of your podcast through all the Pacific Islands. So yes, I said that. Now, we do receive lots and lots and lots of missionary emails requesting this. If we have missed you, it is on accident. Please do email in and I will be sure to catch it. We go through every week and get everybody in, but sometimes they slip through. And if they do, there's not a difference.

Gerrit We're literally receiving dozens of requests a week. I mean, dozens, like into the 100 a week realm now. And so it's easy for us to just buy, you know, poor skills, miss a name or two. So if you don't feel like you've gotten it as a missionary, please let us know.

Richard Yeah. If you think that I have problems reading, you've got to imagine that this isn't too far away from the idea that I might miss an email or two and not be as...

Gerrit We haven't yet figured out a way to have AI automatically do this for you like we have for the reading.

Richard It's true. I tell you, I am on a gossamer's thread here. I'm walking a fine line.

Gerrit Yeah. There's a better chance of that spider in Jonathan Edwards, Sinners in the Hand of the Angry God, than there is for you at this point.

Richard Okay, Gerrit, this next one comes to us from Elder Uchegbu. I hope that I'm pronouncing that correctly.

Gerrit There's no possible way.

Richard Hello, Dr. Gerrit and Professor Richard. I am probably a grand master in procrastination. Wanted to write this email around 40 days before my mission started. After all this time, I can finally settle down to write this. I was probably your only listener from Nigeria. Wow. I've been listening. So he's a missionary, but he's from Nigeria.

Gerrit He was from Nigeria, and he just left on his mission then.

Richard Yes, some were French speaking. Okay.

Gerrit Yes, but he didn't tell us where. Elder Uchegbu, we're gonna need you to email us back and tell us where you are.

Richard And give us a checklist of that 100 people that you-

Gerrit Ordered names of everyone who was baptized.

Richard I was probably your only listener in Nigeria. I've been listening to your podcast for close to, if not more than a year. I've missed trying to catch up to your weekly episodes. So I'm a child of record. I think it's called The Child of the Covenant at your end. A lot of people are of the impression that children of record don't really have faith in God. So this is more like a story of how I came to my truth. Growing up, I've always been interested in studying things like science, religion, philosophy. I think some of my friends probably thought I was weird at that age to be interested in those types of things at a really young age. But then at that young age, I was troubled because I thought that religion and science were opposites. I was troubled because I couldn't find a way to reconcile both. It wasn't until my last two years at the university that it clicked. After giving myself too much study and pondering on the scriptures, there was no conflict. It was funny because after I found that truth for myself, I saw a quote from Prophet Russell M.

Richard Nelson that confirmed my thoughts. I studied electrical engineering, so I'm not an expert in this. But after studying a good number of the hypotheses and theories on how the universe began, it just gave me more reason for there to be a supernatural hand behind everything. I think my issue initially was just how abstract and far away Christian denominations made God seem. This is where the Book of Mormon and Revelations to the Prophets came in. The Book of Mormon for me was a confirming truth that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. God exists and Jesus Christ is his son. Your podcast helped me to learn much more about the Book of Mormon and the restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Revelations from the prophets also added to this truth. This is where I have issues. Unlike the experiences of people, converts especially, I didn't get my testimony or my faith in Jesus Christ through prayer. My confirmation came rather through the application of logic. I want to know your thoughts on this.

Richard All in all, to summarize, in my journey, I have come to realize that faith and logic are not mutually exclusive. In fact, I believe that faith can be deeply rooted in logic and reason. I think the phrase, the Book of Mormon is for our day, makes so much sense for me. In an age where information is easily accessible, where people can be easily swayed by the storm of information flying around, the Book of Mormon for me is like a sign, a miracle, essentially to confirm the truth in these days. I really loved your Faith is Not a Cop-Out episode. Thank you for creating such thought-provoking content. I'm sorry for the extra long email. It has been a beautiful six weeks of crunching French and the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Leaving for the field soon. Don't know what to expect, but I'm looking forward to it. I'd love to get a Google Drive of your podcast. I'm just glad I finally finished writing this email draft. Keep doing the good work. You're definitely going to get it.

Gerrit It only takes him six weeks and apparently, there was many weeks before that. Oh, sorry, there's one more.

Richard He's got one more line.

Gerrit I'll let him close his letter and then I'll laugh.

Richard Well, no, keep doing the good work. You're definitely building faith. So, he's very, very kind, very lovely.

Gerrit Very kind and I'm assuming he's at an MTC somewhere then learning French is what's going on.

Richard Yeah.

Gerrit Maybe in the Ghana MTC or I have no understanding. We need to, I have a good friend of mine in my ward, who works with all the various MTCs in the world. We need to just, we should bring him on and just have a whole interview with him where we're like, so like, where are the MTCs and stuff? And then, you know, ask him if they have marshmallow mateys and all of them. Is there, is there, is there always, you know, long lines for food? Do you, is it still only the district leaders in every country that have the right to withhold the email? I mean, withhold mail from you, because that was my experience. But, you know, what a beautiful email. And honestly, it goes to a lot of what we talked about last week and what we're going to continue talking about this week. The question of, you know, is it a, is it, you want my thoughts on the fact that you came through the application of logic? I think all of us are individual spirits.

Gerrit And we are incredible at some things. We are fine at others. And we're absolute dumpster fires at everything else. I mean, we all have inborn talents. And I know that, you know, when you see some people, you're like, I feel like God didn't even try on me. You know what I mean? In the sense that this person's so talented. Everyone has some kind of inborn talent. And I think part of that is who your spirit is. And so it doesn't bother me that someone's faith is based more upon logic and thinking about it. Because if you have a testimony, it still comes from the spirit speaking those words to you. And frankly, that's kind of what we've been talking about this last week and what we're going to talk about today is that if there is a God and if God is all good, and if that all good God created everything, how do we explain why anything exists?

Gerrit How do we explain this evil, horrible world if God is good? And I think Elder Chekbu, the conclusions that you came to as you studied the formation of the universe, that's right, that there has to be some supernatural power involved, is actually something similar that we're discussing today. If there's a God, which there is, I'm not questioning, and that God is all good, and that God is all powerful, well then there has to be a better explanation of why we're here on this earth, other than just God felt like it'd be a fun game. And that's part of what we're talking about. So, I say however you get your faith, whether you get your faith because you've reasoned it out, whether you get your faith because you've just felt it, regardless, the very act of saying, I have faith, is a declaration through the Holy Spirit.

Gerrit Because faith cometh by the Spirit, right? It is not something that's provable. It's something that you believe. So, I don't think faith and logic are mutually exclusive. I agree with you. I have a mind that likes logic as well. And frankly, that's... It is certainly a part of my testimony that the other explanations that are out there don't resolve any of my concerns about this life. The revelations given to Joseph Smith and other modern prophets do resolve them. And so, for me, that's a powerful witness and I believe one that comes by the spirit.

Richard Well, so, Gerrit, we have a couple of video clips here. Well, the audio clips for... Well, it's video, but I'm just...

Gerrit You know, we're going to just have... Our listeners are going to be scrambling around trying to find the video clip.

Richard Well, it's all mimes. So, this will be an interesting hour as we go through. But, it's a tip of the cap to him serving in a French country. So, what we have here is we have kind of a couple of different people that are asking. The first one is a clip. And the sound is kind of soft. It's a child that is asking a question. And the question is a really good question.

Gerrit Do you need to maybe repeat the child's question in case they can't fully hear it?

Richard Yes. Essentially, the question is, why would God create a tree that Adam and Eve could partake of if he knew that they were going to partake of it, right?

Gerrit A child asked that question.

Richard Yeah. And it's kind of in a...

Gerrit I have a 16-year-old that I'm pretty sure doesn't even know there was a tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Richard Or that fruit exists at all, really.

Gerrit Yeah. I mean, he likes strawberries.

Richard Okay. Well, there you go. So I'm going to play the clip. Gerrit will hear it out. Now, the editing is seamless. You're not even going to be able to tell. This is an hour and 20-minute clip that I'm cutting down into a minute 49. So, but there's some things. The question is a good one. His attempt to answer it brings up more questions of things that we don't know. I think you'll find it interesting. You'll find it mildly interesting. Okay. You're not going to find it interesting.

Other If God knew that Adam and Eve were going to eat of the tree of good and evil, why did He create the tree? Why did God create the tree? That you said, if He knew they were going to eat of it, why did He create it? That's a really good question. The same reason that God allowed Eve to partake of the tree, is connected with Mena's question about why did God even allow evil? And I gave that answer briefly and I will give it briefly again, because just the fact that we have Lapsarianism and volumes written on something that the Bible never addresses. Take what we know, Satan fell. So number one, Satan fell. Then Satan comes down and begins tempting Eve, started. So chronologically, Satan fell first. Why?

Other See, the real answer to Sophie's question is, why did God even allow Satan to fall? Why does God even allow evil? That God knew all this was going to happen. And he, before it ever happened, determined the outcome. But why? And here's why I think. And I mean, who am I to say? I mean, Calvin wrote his institutes when he was like 20 some years old or so. I mean, Luther, I mean, the reformers have to Augustine, probably one of the biggest minds ever to be on this planet since Christ's mind and Paul's mind. They could not figure this out.

Gerrit OK, well, I don't know exactly who you're playing here, but clearly a Calvinist who is responding. The very fact that the appeal is to, you can always tell if you're talking to someone who's reformed theology. If their appeal is to Calvin or to St. Augustine, then or RC Sproul or Spurgeon. If they're going to any of those, you know you've got a Calvinist.

Richard So, the reason I thought the clip was interesting is the innocent question that's asked by a child, number one. The response from him saying, so, I really liked him. I watched the entire video. I thought he did a very good job trying to explain. But one of the things that he pointed out several times was, okay, so this question that you're asking, this lapsarianism that we've talked about in other episodes, this is never mentioned in the Bible at all. This is us trying to figure it out. And then on top of it, he goes to Augustine saying, he said he didn't know why these things are. And that's, I loved the just, I mean, he was very honest with like, look, I don't know these things, but they're big questions.

Gerrit I love the fact that he actually took the question to the further level, because, you know, the child's essentially asking, why did God make a tree that they could then sin with? Now, you could try to get around that, and it almost seemed like he was going to by placing the order of things, right? Well, you know, God created a tree, but then Satan fell, and so the tree was good and then Satan fell, and then he tempted them, and you write that, because that's an effort to try to blame what's going on on Satan, but, you know, he does pull it back at the end to say, you know, everything is God's will. And that really is the, it's the only logical, I mean, speaking of logic, you know, Elder Ukechegbu, I mean, the only logical conclusion you can come to, I think anyway, if I wasn't a Latter-day Saint, is the only logically consistent position to have, is that if God is all-powerful, then everything, including the world, including the fall, including our creation, is exactly what God intended.

Gerrit Because if you say the opposite, you realize just how ridiculous it sounds. God is absolutely all-powerful. He created this world and totally messed up with it. He wanted it to be like this paradise, but you know, it wasn't. He wanted people to be like righteous and to worship him, but they don't. He wanted people to bring glory to him through their good works, but they don't. He wanted everyone to go to heaven, but no one does. I mean, frankly, you know, God's not getting anything he wants out of this world if what he wants is the salvation of everyone in Christian theology. So I do appreciate the fact that he's wrestling with the real question. And he's essentially saying, we don't know. But he is in the saying, I don't know, he's affirming that God intended the fall. Now, in this area, in a little secret way that's going to make Glory, our listener, feel very, very, you know, ve-clempt on this and not happy.

Richard Well, it is Rosh Hashanah tomorrow.

Gerrit Yeah.

Richard I mean, well, actually tonight at sunset. Happy Rosh Hashanah, everybody.

Gerrit Yeah.

Richard I mean, well, actually tonight at sunset. Happy Rosh Hashanah, everybody.

Gerrit Happy Rosh Hashanah, everybody. In a way that I actually respect a great deal, traditional reform theology or Calvinist theologians are acknowledging something that actually is true, right? So, so they looked at everything. God's all-powerful. God created the world. The only way that all of this would have unfolded the way that it has is if God intended it to unfold the way that it did. And in that, Latter-day Saints have this kernel of combined understanding with reformed theologians. Now, what I say, it's just a kernel. It's because that for wildly different reasons, we agree that the fall was God's plan.

Gerrit They, they agree that the fall must be God's plan because God created everything out of nothing. We believe that the fall was God's plan because of a pre-mortal life. We believe that the purpose of this world was for eternal, immortal spirits that existed before to come to a mortal world, a sinful world, a world where they could be tested. And as we learn from our modern scripture, to prove them now herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever, the Lord their God shall command them, there was the point of the world is the fall. Now that is anathema to most Christians, right? Because for every other Christian, the reason why we're dealing with that evil devil and the reason why there's so much sin and the reason why there's hell and the reason why there's syphilis and mosquitoes is because of the fall, and so if we could just somehow eliminate the fall, then everything would be good.

Gerrit But what Joseph Smith has revealed to him is that the entire purpose of this earth is these spirit children of our Heavenly Father and our Heavenly Mother to gain a body so that they could be tested, so they could progress, because that was the only way that they could become like their Heavenly Father. So it's an interesting thing that a pure Calvinist theologian will say, the fall must have been intended by God. I remember listening to RC. Sproul in his great book. If you ever want to really... I don't know if any of our listeners really want to dive into Calvinist theology. Josh has already thrown his third iPhone out the window this week.

Richard And it's a new one. He got an iPhone 16 Max out the window.

Gerrit Yeah, there it is. Oh, and another one's... I mean, Josh's entire house is littered with smashed iPhones because he can't handle the discussion about Calvinism. But if you read RC. Sproul's book, he essentially comes to this same conclusion. In some way that is completely impossible for us to understand, the fall must be good because God obviously willed it, or it wouldn't have happened. And God only does good things.

Richard And so this is kind of the next several clips, Gerrit. The challenge around that is that you have billions upon billions of God's children that go to hell, that have an immortal. So we talked about this on the last episode, but this is the fundamental problem. And so there's four clips. And the first one comes from, I'm glad that my wife isn't here to see. He's a very dreamy Catholic priest. You get lost in his eyes. And so he starts off, and he's coming from a great place of compassion. And then there's another one, and it's a clip also from Catholic. And they just mentioned mystery, mystery. I mean, again, these are much longer clips, and I've clipped them down, but just the mystery and not knowing. And then the comments become something. The goal is to get you upset. And I think by the end we will.

Gerrit If we want to go back to the child's question, though, fundamentally is, it's not just a question about evil on this earth, right? I'm actually surprised when you study some theologians, how little time they spend on the unfairness of eternal damnation. Like people actually spend much more time on why life isn't fair and why God wills that bad things happen to you. And I get it that that's a little bit more pressing to me right now. Like I care a lot more that my car didn't start, right? Literally right before this episode, then I'm thinking about things, you know, in the future, even to the point where there's, you know, a former theologian and historian who kind of apostatized from Christianity and became agnostic, wrote an entire book about the problem of evil in the world and how the Bible just doesn't have a satisfactory answer for why there's so much evil in the world.

Gerrit And even he spent almost no time in a book that he wrote. And look, he's, I don't know, 10 times smarter than I am. I mean, what's the number?

Richard He's at least six and a half. He teaches at North Carolina. Yeah, I mean, so like Tar Heels.

Gerrit Yeah, he's, he's, he's, he's 10 to 15 times smarter than me. And even in his book, the entire book was devoted to the fact of trying to resolve the problem of evil. He spent almost no time at all on the fact that there's eternal damnation. I mean, he does mention it, it gets a passing glance every once in a while, but it's always like he adds it on. He's like, look at all the wars, look at all the sicknesses, look at all the disease. And also some people burning hell forever. Like, whoa, whoa, whoa. You're burying the lead because as bad as a war is, as much suffering as there might be in a famine, writhing in the agonies of a pit of fire and brimstone for trillions upon trillions upon trillions of years has to be at least somewhat worse because it's of infinite duration. And so, I like that we're moving in this direction, and I haven't heard these clips yet though.

Gerrit So, you know, Richard's catching me unawares.

Richard Yes, that's the fun of this. So the first one, like I said, again, very reasonable trying to come to this. So let's play this one.

Other You may be in timbuktu, where maybe you haven't yet preached the gospel. You never even heard of this man named Jesus. You also might be a Muslim living in Turkey. And yeah, you've heard people talk about Jesus, but every time they've talked about him, they've talked about, oh yeah, he was a prophet before Muhammad, this kind of thing. You just dismiss him. So maybe you never gave Christ a chance. Or you have people who are not Catholic, and they don't even know that Jesus actually gave us the Catholic Church as the universal sacrament of salvation. So are those people automatically condemned, or do they automatically get a pass? Well, the Church, wrestling with all of this, wrestling with, no, Jesus is the way, the truth, not the way, not one of the ways, he's the way. And also that God desires all men to be saved. The Church has this formulation from the Second Vatican Council. It says, that we hold out hope for all those who do not know Jesus or his Church, yet who choose the good that they do know, moved by God's grace. They don't do it on their own. But they choose the good that they do know, moved by God's grace. We hold out hope that they too may be saved in Jesus.

Gerrit Okay. Well, that's both reasonable and beautiful. I mean, Catholic theology has really evolved in the 20th century in the sense that it used to be held pretty tightly that an unbaptized baby, for instance, was going to spend forever in limbo, right? And then Vatican II and other statements of faith from the Catholic Church modified that. And I even heard one Catholic theologian once say, well, we have to believe that hell exists because Jesus says that it does. So we have to, so hell must exist. But do we have to believe that anyone goes there? That was, it was, yeah. And you could tell he was about to be tackled by the more conservative Catholic priest next to him. But there's a, you can, you can see what they're wrestling with.

Other Yeah.

Gerrit And, and so what they end up saying is, I hope that there's some way that they can still be saved. At the same time, he acknowledged, right? What? There's the only way you can be saved is through Jesus, which is, I find even more problematic for Catholics, right? Because salvation to a Catholic isn't just, I said, I believe in Jesus.

Other Right. Right.

Gerrit There are sacraments that have to be performed. And, and I think this is the more moderate, the more, if you want to say liberal view of saying, God is so great and God is so good that maybe there is some possible way that people who haven't heard about Jesus can still be saved. And you know what? That, I mean, I, I appreciate the fact that what he's doing is he's placing what he believes to be the goodness of God front and center vis-a-vis the fact that people don't all believe in Jesus.

Richard That's actually one of my favorite parts about it. He acknowledges the issue but says, look, God is so wonderful that I'm sure that Vatican II is like 1962-ish, 62-65, somewhere in that range, I think, ish. It's relatively recent. In Catholic history, that is super, super-duper recent. He's not dismissing it as, hey, it is what it is. He's trying to come to an understanding of how this could be.

Gerrit What do you think a Calvinist theologian would say to him, aside from, you're a Pope worshipper?

Richard You're about to find out. I've got some clips. I've got some clips coming. This next clip, it's super-cut to where they say, mysteries a bunch of time, and then they give an example that as they're trying to explain it, that I think will irritate Gerrit. Not that they're trying to, but just like they're not going to a logical end here. Again, this is also a Catholic, it's a Catholic radio show trying to answer questions, and the question is similar to this, what happens to people that never hear the gospel?

Other Okay. In one sense, there is a mystery here. So in a certain sense, we can say it is a mystery. God has mercy on whom he will have mercy, and thanks be to God. There are certain things that are mysterious. Why does God give more grace to some than others? God gives every human being sufficient grace for them to make it to heaven. So if they do not make it to heaven, it is not, and the Council of Trent said this as well with regard to justification. You cannot say that someone is not justified because God did not give them the grace. No. In order for someone to go to hell, they must freely choose to reject the grace of God given to them. All of this is why you have to put a capital M on the mystery of providence. The human mind cannot possibly reconcile God's omniscience and our free will. You pointed something out on an early broadcast, Tim, that stuck with me. It's this, God knowing, quote unquote, beforehand, does not mean God causing something to happen in our future Earth.

Other Picture flying over a terrain in a hot air balloon. You can see a car accident about to happen. You know it will, but you're not causing either driver to do what they did. Does that shed some light, Matthew, on a really deep mystery?

Gerrit Boy, you are right. That riles me a little bit more.

Richard It's a tough one.

Gerrit Maybe it's that pro-counsel of Trent stuff.

Richard You've always been anti-counsel of Trent. It's one of those things though where it's a tough deal, because I understand what he's trying to do with the hot air balloon analogy, but it really falls flat.

Gerrit Yeah, it's a pretty terrible analogy, because Latter-day Saints make this same analogy all the time. Not with hot air balloons. We usually do it with candy bars in our kids. Like if I put a candy bar on a low table, I know my five-year-old is going to come eat it. I mean, all of those are to help us understand how you can know something and not cause it to happen. The problem is, if I'm in a hot air balloon and looking down on a car accident, you're right, I didn't cause it to happen. Unless, of course, I created the car, created the people in it, created the world, created the gravity, all out of nothing, already knowing that those people would die in that car wreck and doing absolutely nothing about it. What if I'm Superman in the hot air balloon? If I'm Superman in the hot air balloon and I can see that there's a car crash going to happen and I don't do anything about it, well, that's a very different question, isn't it?

Gerrit I'm just immortal watching.

Richard And the super, the Superman, sure, yeah, there's a sin of omission potentially, but none of those things existed and I caused all of it to happen.

Gerrit Right. Why did I create a world in which people could run into each other with cars at all? The other thing that I find to me is personally unsatisfying. Look, again, I think they are wrestling with the question. And so, you know, a Catholic would find Latter-day Saint theology quite unsatisfying, mainly because we're claiming that there needed to be a restoration. So, I get that. But I find it unsatisfying to simply say that if you aren't saved, it's your own fault, that there's enough grace given to everyone to be saved. Well, that's a pretty far cry from the conversation we had in the last clip, right? I mean, so is the person born in a place where they never even hear the word Jesus? Are they given enough grace to be saved? I mean, we just listen to another theologian say we don't even know what happens to those people, which is an implication that they're not going to heaven, by the way, because you do know what happens to people who are going to heaven.

Gerrit The problem is in Christian theology, once you say there's only heaven and hell, and even in Catholic theology, purgatory is just like a stepping stool to heaven. You only go to purgatory if you're going to go to heaven, eventually, so once you say that it's either heaven or hell, and you say the only way you can go to heaven is if you have faith in Jesus. How far down the road of questions do I have to go when I say, okay, there's a 20 year old woman who lives in Sumatra in 1300 AD. She never even hears the word Jesus in her life. Did she have enough grace to be saved? Did God give her enough grace? Now, if you take the first theologian's premise that maybe there is some possible way that she saved, okay, that's not very definitive for 10 billion people to say maybe there's some way. But I find it incredibly unsatisfying to say, well, they had enough grace to be saved, they just weren't.

Gerrit If people go to hell, it's their own fault. I realize that we're all sinners. And by that measure, if God didn't save us, I guess it would be justified that we didn't go to heaven because we are sinners. At the same time, Catholics and all other Christians believe that your spirit did not exist before God created it. Saying everyone has sufficient grace in order to be saved doesn't answer the question of why doesn't all good God create an immortal soul 20 years ago for that person in that car that you're watching about to crash? Why did he create their soul with an immortal soul? Why did he create it knowing they would not act upon the grace that is proffered them?

Gerrit Why? What would be the purpose of that for God? I mean, God can know that they're not going to act upon the grace that he gives them. It really does raise some questions. Why exactly is God creating people that aren't going to act upon the grace that he gives them? Or how about why is God making everyone's salvation premised upon whether or not they act upon the grace that he gives them? Put it another way. Could God have created a world where every single person was saved? Yes. I think you have to say yes. So riddle me this, Batman. Why doesn't he? If God could have created a world out of nothing in which every single person had an immortal spirit and every single person was saved, why didn't he? And I don't think that we've touched that answer yet. All we're getting is, I feel like again, we're getting discussions of the symptom, but not discussions of the reality.

Richard So I think we're about to get closer to that here. This next clip that we have, the question comes from a woman from India, and it's a pretty reasonable question from a woman from India in a country that would have lots of people that have never heard of Jesus before.

Gerrit Yeah, like a billion of them.

Richard Sure. I think I've even mentioned on this podcast, when I was in India for work several years ago, this was 2018, and I was at lunch with my team, and someone mentioned Jesus, and at the table, someone said, I've heard of that before. What is that? This is 2018 in Delhi, India.

Gerrit Which there are millions of Christians in India.

Richard Of course, right. Anyway, just to that point. In this particular clip, it starts in the place that you want it to go, and then it ends less satisfying.

Gerrit So it goes off the rails. It's like my plan when I go to Disneyland with my family. It starts off like, we're going to hit Space Mountain, and then we're going to go to Matterhorn, and we're just going to keep pushing right on through, and then sometime around Toy Story, it's like, all right, I'm done. You guys just go do whatever you want, and I'm going to sit here for four hours.

Richard Yeah, that or literally every diet ever, starting Monday.

Gerrit Yeah.

Richard I say that to my wife every Saturday.

Gerrit Yeah.

Richard I say that to my wife every Saturday.

Gerrit I avoid the number of pushups I'm going to do tomorrow is legion.

Richard I've never committed to a pushup, but I just eat less food, which I also don't do.

Gerrit Yeah. Well, there you go.

Other The question is that if a person has never ever been exposed to the gospel, has never heard anyone go and give them the gospel, and they die without hearing the gospel even once, without hearing the name of Jesus saves them and died for them, how would God judge them? Okay. The question here is, how does God judge people who have never heard the gospel of Christ? And I think that the Bible indicates that God judges people on the basis of the information that they have. He judges them on the basis of the light that they have. So that those who have never heard of Christ will not be judged on the basis of whether they've placed their faith in Christ. That would be manifestly unfair. They've never heard of Jesus. How could they place their faith in him? Rather, Paul says in Romans 1 and 2 that they will be judged on the basis of how they've responded to God's general revelation in nature and in conscience.

Other This raises all sorts of questions. Are there any people like this? I hope so. I hope Aristotle gets in. But if you take Romans 1 seriously, I think you have to say there's not very many people like this. Paul says that rather than worship and serve the Creator, people turn to gods of their own making and turn away from God. And rather than live up to his moral law, they plunge themselves into immorality and degeneracy and so find themselves condemned before God just on the basis of his general revelation in nature and conscience. So, I don't think we can be optimistic that very many people will access salvation through general revelation. It's a very, very good question, sir. And I think it actually hinges a little bit also on the previous one.

Other You know, the thing about skeptics sometimes when they ask us these questions, and I'm not saying it's you, because I don't know the background from which you're coming, is oftentimes I wonder whether they realize we ask these same questions. You know, we struggle with these issues. It's not like we think these are invalid questions. They are very valid question. But what does the question assume? The question assumes something very critical, that the answer should be coherent. Because a coherent worldview is what you're really looking for.

Richard So, he starts there with what you would think an LDS person might even say. Well, that's not fair to be judged by something you don't know. You have to have this, you know. But then he ultimately goes to a place where I don't think very many people will access it. So, actually, I think everyone will be essentially be damned. And then the second quote is a different person but saying, you are assuming something has to be coherent. If it doesn't have to be coherent anyway.

Gerrit And I think that goes back to our original clip on that, you know, the multiple mysteries of God, right? So, one of the mysteries is this mystery of, of, of, you know, what, how salvation works in that regard. But, yeah, he starts off in a way that you're like, oh, am I listening to a Latter-day Saint, you know, bear their testimony? And it very quickly, like our diets, goes off the rails. And it's, it's a giant, super big gulp slushy, you know, with, with a, you know, a large milkshake from, from, you know, iceberg. And it's like 2,000 calories or something like that. The reason why is this idea, it's contradictory, right? So, well, of course, God's not going to judge people for things that they don't know, but also God, through general revelation, let everyone know. What does that even mean? Right? Because in the same breath, that same theologian will tell you that, how are you saved?

Gerrit Well, their only way you can be saved is faith in Jesus. So are you saying that this general revelation model gets to the point where Aristotle is sitting there one day and he's like, you know what? Jesus, is that what you're saying? Because if you're not saying that, if you're saying that general revelation just makes people think about God in the abstract, and God in the abstract is enough to save somebody, well, then I guess there's going to be tons of people that are saved because there are lots of people who thought about God in the abstract. They're all over the place. They're falling off of the back of pick up trucks everywhere if you're looking for people that believe that God exists, but I'm pretty sure, given the second half of what he said, that that's not what he's saying. In fact, it's almost like he catches himself holding out too much hope and then reels it right back in.

Gerrit There can't be very many people. Why? Because the only way you can be saved is through the name of Jesus. And while our Catholic theologian friend is saying, maybe there is a way, I think this guy's more saying, look, the reality is there wasn't a way. I think this theology bothers me a great deal. Because one of the things that bothers me most in life, is when you are playing a board game, and someone, there's two things about playing, there's lots of things about playing a board game that bother me, right? I love board games. And also, if someone cheats when you're playing, I'm not a fan. Okay, it's a good way to really bother me. Second, when someone is teaching you a board game, it's literally my least favorite thing to do is learn a new game.

Gerrit I love games. I literally have closets full of board games. Richard can attest to this. Yes, I have. I have many.

Richard It's your retirement plan.

Gerrit Yeah, I have a Legion in games. I have Legion, and they speak. There we are. We are many. But I hate learning a new game like at someone else's house. Not that I won't do it. I'll go do it. I'll play along. I'll smile. I'll act like I'm having fun. And the entire time, I hate it. The entire time I'm sitting there like just raging on the inside. This is worse to me than Calvin as hell. Why? Well, because inevitably, no matter how well someone describes the rules of a game to you, there's going to be some aspect to it that they don't focus on or that they leave out. And so you start playing the game, you get halfway through it, and then they like do a move and they're like, oh, yeah, so now all my fields are worth twice as much. Oh, I didn't know that you could do that. Yeah, yeah, so if you do this, then all your fields are worth twice as much.

Gerrit Okay, well, maybe if I would have known that, I probably would have tried to do that. Yeah, yeah, I should have said that at the beginning. Okay, it's a good thing we played. Tons of fun. And that's kind of how I feel with this throwaway answer that, well, there's enough general revelation that everyone just should have known. Anyone who's actually operated in the world knows that that's not true. And even he himself realizes that it's not true. Because as he sat down to think about it, what did he say? Yeah, that's not really happening. He's basically admitting almost everyone who lives on earth burns in hell. Oh, sure. Even if you catch a stray Aristotle or a Plato in there, the reality is if you don't have faith in Jesus, you go to hell. And the reason why it bothers me so much is the work, it's far worse to try to convince me that that 20 year old in Sumatra, it's her fault that she's burning in hell.

Gerrit She didn't properly apply the general revelation. And so therefore, she's burning in hell. Even though, how can they believe except they be taught? And how can they be taught except they be sent, right? Even though Paul declares to us that you can't actually believe unless someone is taught to sent to teach you, theologians like this are going to say it's somehow everyone's fault. Very conveniently, luckily, they were born in a Christian country.

Richard So, so you seem like, I mean, I don't know where your dander is right now. What? How high up your dander is? It seems pretty high.

Gerrit What's your level of trying to make me mad?

Richard Well, this next clip, everything I've known about you and our friendship over nearly 25 years of our life has culminated in playing this clip to make you very angry.

Gerrit Okay, so you actually aren't even my friend. You became my friend.

Richard A long con.

Gerrit Yeah, I feel like you played the game a long time. You're like, I'm going to convince him to start a podcast and then and only then. So as soon as you play this clip, you'll never speak to me again then.

Richard Yeah, no, I'll be done, but I'll get what I want. You're going to, like Vesuvius, you're going to...

Gerrit I'm prepping myself, so I'm going to be very measured, actually.

Richard Good luck. So here's the thing. I know you pretty well. Good luck. So the thing is, is that this clip answers that question that you're asking about why it is their fault.

Gerrit Okay, here we go.

Other First of all, you don't go to hell because you've never heard of Jesus. You go to hell because you've sinned. It would be like saying, I went, I died because I didn't go to the doctor. No, you died because you had a disease. Now, maybe you could have prevented dying by going to the doctor, just like you could prevent eternal death by going to the great physician. But the reason you're dying is because you have a disease. And the reason we go to hell is because we've sinned. Now, it sure seems though that the Bible seems to say you need to know the name. Well, what about those that have never heard the name? Well, we know people who hear the gospel and don't believe it, right? Several people that you probably know. Maybe many people watching right now. You've heard the gospel, but you don't believe it. Well, it could be that those that never hear the gospel wouldn't have believed it anyway. I mean, that's certainly possible, right? In fact, Paul even says when he's talking to the Athenians in Acts chapter 17, he says God has appointed the times and places where people should live so that people would reach out to him and find him, though he's not far from each one of us.

Other It could be that God has so prearranged the world that only the people that want to be saved hear the gospel, or let me put it another way, that people who never hear the gospel wouldn't have believed it anyway. He wants people to be saved more than we do, Elisa. And if he wants all to be saved and some people aren't saved, it's largely because they don't want to be saved. But we have been given the privilege and the dignity of causality to get people to gospel, and that's why we risk all to get people to gospel. I leave in the hands of God, the people who've never heard. Possibly God arranges people in certain places around the globe who have already rejected. Why would he send the gospel to someone who has already rejected him? The idea that there has to be a creator and designer out there who's moral, because you have creation, conscience, design. Everybody knows that whether they have a Bible or not. If you take a step toward that and want to know more, God will get you either a missionary and Alicia Childers broadcast, a pastor, a dream or a vision, a Bible of some kind.

Other He's going to get you the word so you can be saved because he wants people to be saved more than we do.

Richard So now, Gerrit, that comes from Frank Turek. He's all over social media, YouTube. There's a clip two months ago, Do Latter-day Saints and Christians Worship the Same God? Based on that clip I played, I would go ahead and say, actually, probably not.

Gerrit Yeah, actually, I want to respect what everyone else believes. Also, who do you think you are? The idea that, well, the reason why God had people born in Africa was because he already knew that they wouldn't be saved. Apparently, he doesn't recognize the inherent racism of the argument that he's making. Oh, by the way, it was also the argument that was made by European enslavers and colonizers. By the way, that's part of the argument they made. God obviously hasn't chosen these people or they wouldn't have been born here. Therefore, it's okay for us to do whatever we want. I am outraged by the idea. What a cop out. Well, you don't go to hell because you don't believe in Jesus.

Gerrit You go to hell because you're a sinner. Who created me? And who put me in Sumatra knowing that I'd never hear the word Jesus? Who did that? It wasn't me. It had to be God. Again, sin is not happening in this world by spontaneous combustion. Sin isn't surprising God. God isn't walking down the road and suddenly, oh my goodness, there's sin down there? Whoa. I didn't see that coming. I've seen everything else coming, but not that. I mean, I created the world out of nothing. I created mankind out of nothing. I gave everyone immortal souls. I had no idea that there would be sin that would condemn everyone to hell for no reason. I think maybe the condescension that they both had in their voice talking about it, frankly, she almost sounded a little bit worse than him. He was coming in pretty hot and she's like, yeah, well, you know, God already knows that those people weren't going to accept him.

Gerrit That's why you had them born there. Okay. Time to ask the next question. Let's repeat back what you just said. God already knew that they wouldn't accept him. That's why he had them born. Think about what you are saying. You are saying that apparently an all-good God, all-good, created a being out of nothing and gave them an immortal spirit, fully knowing that they would burn in hell forever. The question, again, they like to fly on the questions of temporality. And not on the question of eternity. So we can have arguments back and forth about whether or not they had enough of the the revealed natural revelations for them to, you know, they could have had a vision.

Gerrit They could have had a child's gospel network get to whatever, you know, excuse there is doesn't overcome the fact that that 20 year old in Sumatra didn't exist 20 years ago. She didn't exist according to Christian theology. She didn't exist. God already knew he was having her born into an evil world where of course she would sin because everything is mortal sin. We can't escape sin. God's having her born into a world that's a fallen world. Why? Why is he having her born into a fallen world where he knows she cannot be saved? I mean, I haven't yet heard a good argument for that.

Gerrit Mainly because people want to, they want to obfuscate the real question by talking about things like agency and the fall. And while those are all part of what we're talking about, in order to actually have agency, you kind of have to know what you're choosing. Agency is worthless without knowledge, it is, right? So you say to me, Gerrit, you can go through one of those two doors. Okay, so I have the agency to open one of those two doors. If one of them is a bottomless pit and I die, I don't think you get away by saying like, well, he had his choice. He had his agency and he just used his agency poorly. Surprising that he used his agency that way. Knowledge is the only thing that allows agency to be useful at all.

Gerrit Because otherwise, we're making blind choices, how could we possibly be judged for them? So yeah, my dander is way up. My dander is way up when it comes to things like this, just because fundamentally, were I sitting down with those that, you know, this person who's very proud that he doesn't worship the Mormon Jesus, I would be able to ask him that question. In your theology, you believe that God created billions of spirits out of nothing and made those spirits immortal, fully knowing that they would burn in hell forever. Fully knowing. He would have to say yes. Now, he would blame them. Well, yeah, because they're sinners and they don't accept Jesus. But God already knew they weren't going to accept Jesus. In fact, that was the whole point of the second half of your discussion. So if God already knew that they weren't going to accept Jesus, why did he give them an immortal spirit?

Gerrit For fun? Because God loves to watch people burn in hell? Because misery of billions of people is something that just really makes God excited? It sounds an awful lot more like Satan than it does God. And frankly, that's a frustrating thing for me. That someone like that will spend their time talking about how I don't really know Jesus in what they're trying to convince me that same Jesus has a plan that condemns almost every single person who's ever lived on this earth to writhe in agony forever. I don't want to know your Jesus. Because I know a Jesus who loves everyone. I know a Jesus who didn't just say there's a way for everyone to be saved. There is a way for everyone to be saved. I know a Jesus that doesn't just put lip service to the idea that maybe, just maybe there might be some way that a Muslim might possibly go to heaven, but probably not.

Gerrit In fact, I have modern day prophets that state expressly that people of other faiths are going to go to heaven. Latter-day saints do not fully appreciate how incredibly merciful the plan of salvation is. They just don't. We throw it aside like it's garbage water without realizing the Jesus that you want to worship, the one who loves everyone, the one who is fair to everyone, the one who wants everyone to be happy is not the one that is taught in traditional Christianity. We say the words, we draw near unto him with our lips, but our heart is far from him.

Gerrit Because while we will say that God is love, and the next phrase out of that person's mouth is, and by the way, almost everyone's burning in hell. They wrestle with it because it's a difficult part of their theology. How incredible is it that Latter-day Saints have an answer to that question? I mean, just to go to Joseph Smith again, because, you know, he seems like, you know, he's fine.

Richard So we did joke about this before that, that, you know, part of the reason you seem smart is because you're just reading Joseph Smith quotes.

Gerrit I am legitimately stupid. Like, my entire, the entire podcast rests upon me taking the cliff notes of Joseph Smith's sermons and then just like, have you ever thought about, maybe God thought this? And people are like, wow, that's really profound. I know. Thanks, Joseph. I mean, it is true. Like, I'm not smarter than I, I'm clearly not smarter than some of those theologians, but it's not about being smarter. It's about the fact that I've accepted true doctrine that's been revealed. And boy, when you believe in true doctrine, it sure seems like you're a lot smarter. When really, it's just a lot clearer. As Joseph teaches, if you are not led by revelation, how can you escape the damnation of hell?

Gerrit Here we have the testimony of four. I have the oldest book in the world and the Holy Ghost. I thank God for the old book. He's talking about the Bible and the Gospels. But more for the Holy Ghost. Now, he's going to start getting into a little bit of blasphemy here. My guess is that they won't be playing this on their podcast as a way to prove a truth. The gods, plural, came together and concocted the plan of making the world and the inhabitants having a knowledge of God. We know how to approach him and to ask, and he will answer. Another thing, the learned doctor says, the Lord made the world out of nothing. You tell them that God made the world out of something and they think you're a fool. But I am learned and know more than the whole world, and the Holy Ghost does anyhow. And I will associate myself with it.

Gerrit He goes on to talk about that the Hebrew word in the Hebrew Bible is, rather than create, is to organize. The world out of chaotic matter, matter element, they are principles that cannot be dissolved. They may be reorganized. Another subject which is calculated to exalt man, I wish to speak of, the resurrection of the dead, the soul, the mind of man. Where did it come from? The learned says that God made it in the beginning. But it is not so. I know better. God told me so. Now that is about as direct as you can get with direct revelation. God told Joseph Smith that the soul, the mind of man was not created by God.

Gerrit Remember, a lot of this boils down to, if God's creating us out of nothing, then why is he creating us with immortal spirits if he knows we're going to burn in hell? Well, Joseph's answering, God didn't create everything out of nothing, and that includes us. I know better, God has told me so. If you don't believe it, it won't make the truth without effect. So you can go on believing that God created every soul out of nothing at the moment of their conception. You can believe it all day long. It doesn't make it true. God was a self-existing being. Man exists upon the same principle. Now, I want you to think about that for just a second. The reason why we've talked about this before, when we talked about the Aseity of God, the reason why God is considered to be different is that God has all of God's power in and of God's self, that God has always been God, God has always existed, is a Christian axiom.

Gerrit It's a truism of Christianity. The reason why no one else can be God is because even if God made you like him, you wouldn't actually be like him because God is self-existent in his glory and power. And even if God gave you all of his glory and power, you wouldn't be self-existent in it. You would have been made it. That's where we go back to Doctrine and Covenants section 93. This great expansion of the Gospel of John. And the Gospel of John starts in the most well-known place in all of Christendom basically, right? That in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And then in Doctrine and Covenants section 93, in this expansion of that record of John, you have the Lord say that man was also in the beginning with God.

Gerrit Joseph is expanding upon that here. He is saying the same way that God is a self-existent being, all of us are in some way a self-existent being. Now that we've got Latter-day Saints now, we're like, well, wait a minute. And you're worried about it. I get it. But it's part of the reason why you can become like your Heavenly Father or your Heavenly Mother, because you are the same type of being that they are. When the Christian world says that you are a child of God, what they mean is you were created by God. You're a creation of God. And therefore, a favored creation, one that's in his own image, whatever that means, depending on how they define it, but you are a creation. When we say that we are a child of God, we mean that we are the same type of being, the same way that my child is the same type of being that I am.

Gerrit He's not something different. He's not, he's not not a human. Although as a teenager, it seems like that sometimes. He is every bit the same type of being that I am. And so therefore, he exists on the same principles. God made a, this is back to Joseph, God made a tabernacle and put a spirit in it. And it became a human soul. Man existed in spirit and mind co-equal with God himself. And the whole point of this sermon is Joseph speaking at a funeral. He says, you who mourn the loss of friends are only separated for a moment. The spirit is separated for a little time. They are now conversant with each other as we are on earth. I'm dwelling on the immutability of the spirit of man.

Gerrit Is it logic to say that the spirit of man had a beginning or an end, had a beginning and yet had no end? It does not have a beginning or end. My ring is like the existence of man. It has no beginning or end. If I cut into it, there would be a beginning and an end. So it is with man. If it had a beginning, it will have an end. If I am right, I might say that God never had power to create the spirit of man. God Himself could not create Himself. Intelligence is eternal and it is self existing. All mind is susceptible of improvement. The relationship that we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. God has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences that they may be exalted with Himself.

Gerrit This is good doctrine. It tastes good. I can taste the principles of eternal life and so can you. They are given to me by the revelations of Jesus Christ and I know that you believe it. All things that God sees fit to reveal to us in relation to us reveals His commandments to our spirits and in saving our spirits, we save the body. The same as if we had no body. How comes the awful responsibility in relation to our dead? If they do not be baptized, they must be damned. Then Joseph, you know, as an aside, you know, Wilford Woodruff is recording this, puts it in parentheses. I wish I had 40 days to talk. What promises are made? What can be said if in the grave, God dwells in eternity and he does not view things as we do. The greatest responsibility laid upon us in this life is in relation to our dead.

Gerrit Paul cannot be made perfect without us, for it is necessary that the seals in our hands to seal our children and our dead for the fullness of the dispensation of times, a dispensation to meet the promises made by Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world for the salvation of man. All sins and blasphemy were to be forgiven except the sin of the Holy Ghost. Here's where there's a wild, I mean, already this entire sermon is wild departure. But God has made provision for every spirit in the eternal world. So this is not a maybe God has found a way that he might be able to save everybody. Joseph Smith, the prophet, specifically, God has made a provision for every spirit in the eternal world. The spirits of our friends should be searched out and saved.

Gerrit Any man that has a friend in eternity can save him. If he has not committed the unpardonable sin, he cannot be damned through all eternity. There is a possibility for his escape in a little time. If a man has knowledge, he can be saved. If he has been guilty of great sins, he is punished for it. But when he consents to obey the Gospel, whether alive or dead, he is saved. I have no fear of hellfire that don't exist. One of those things I love, Joseph Smith teaching that hellfire doesn't really exist. He goes on to say, all will suffer until they obey Christ himself. Even the devil said, I'm a savior and can save all. He rose up in rebellion against God and he was cast down. Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition.

Gerrit And then he goes on to explain that in order to become a son of perdition, you have to know God perfectly. You have to have the heavens opened and then knowing Jesus for who he is is still reject him. He goes on to say that if I could go back and trace every subject of interest concerning the relationship of man to God, if I had time, there are many mansions in my father's kingdom. What have we to console us in relation to our dead? Of any other people on earth, we have seen them walk worthy on earth and those who have died in the faith are now in the celestial kingdom of God. They have gone to await the resurrection of the dead to go to the celestial glory. While there's many who die, we'll have to wait many years. But I am authorized to say to you, my friends, in the name of the Lord, that you may wait for your friends to come forth to meet you in eternity, in the morn of the celestial world. Those saints who have been murdered in persecution shall triumph in the celestial world while their murderers shall dwell in torment until they pay the uttermost farthing.

Gerrit I have fathers and brothers and children that are gone to eternity to meet me. The time will soon be gone. The Trump will soon be blown. A question, will mothers have their children in eternity? Yes. Yes, you will have your children. He goes on in this sermon to talk more about baptism and baptism for the dead and the unpardonable sin. I realize that wasn't directly on topic, but it is actually pretty close. What is Joseph talking about? He's talking about the purpose of this life. Why is there death? How is there resurrection? And what does he teach? He teaches that we are the same type of being that God is. That there isn't the boundless eternity of billions of people burning in hell forever because they happen to be born in the wrong place, because God and His hot air balloon decided not to pull the cord and come down and save them.

Gerrit Everyone, everyone will have the opportunity for exaltation. Everyone, every single person. As Brigham Young said, talking about this, knowing that all these people, even those who reject Jesus, will eventually be saved in a kingdom of glory. Brigham Young said, My soul is comforted. We look at Brigham Young as being this taciturn, and hard-nosed man getting people across the plains. It was his favorite doctrine to believe that everyone was going to be saved in heaven. Obviously, exaltation and salvation aren't the same thing. And there are ordinances that we need to live by in order to achieve exaltation. But we don't believe that it's some kind of dice that is rolled, that it's the luck of the draw, that you're born in the right place, and therefore, you get to be saved.

Gerrit Nor do we believe that God already knows whether or not we're going to be saved. And so therefore, he had me born in a place where I'd never hear about Jesus. And that's why I'm going to burn in hell. We believe that God has made a provision for every spirit, every single person who has lived, who now lives, who will ever live on this earth. In this life or the next, we'll have the same chance at exaltation that I have. Now that is a mystery. It's a mystery about how that will work. But I will take the mystery of not knowing exactly how someone becomes celestialized in glory when they didn't accept Jesus in this life. I'll take the mystery of not knowing the steps that that happens over the mystery of why that same soul rise in the agony of an eternal hell created by God forever.

Gerrit Latter-day Saints, lift up your heads and rejoice. Because of the revelations of Jesus Christ to the Prophet Joseph Smith and to other modern prophets, we do not believe that God randomly condemned people to hell. We don't believe that God condemned us by not intervening. We don't believe that God sits in the hot air balloon and watches us crash our car into the hell fire of burning forever. We believe in a God that as Elder Kieran said is in desperate pursuit of us. And because he's God, he actually has a plan. Because he's not just desperate in his pursuit, he has a plan whereby that pursuit is efficacious, where the pursuit actually works.

Gerrit I don't know how everything will be adjudicated in the next life, but I know that it will be. And we have cause to rejoice. Because we don't have to say out of one side of our mouth that Jesus is wonderful and merciful, and the other side of our mouth say that he also has everyone burn in hell because they're sinners. Even though he's the one who created them with that soul, knowing that they would burn in hell, knowing that they'd be a sinner. Instead, we get to say, all of us knew, we chose. We were with God from the beginning. We were with God. Man was also in the beginning with God. And when God presented his plan and said, this is how you can become like me, because this is how I became like me.

Gerrit We all said, mortal life looks terrible. It looks awful. But if that's how I can become like my Heavenly Father, then I'm going to do it. I think it is a reason to cling to the faith and the hope that you have. We have questions we can't answer. I have all kinds of questions I can't answer. But one of them is not, why do so many people burn in eternal hell forever? Because like Joseph Smith, I have no fear of a hell that don't exist. Because it doesn't. And that's how great and glorious and merciful the plan of salvation is. A Christian often will be asked, if God has the power to save everyone, why doesn't He? And we get to thunderously answer, He does.

Gerrit How great and how glorious is the Atonement of Jesus Christ? He is reaching out and grabbing people and saving them and pulling them to heaven, even those who fight against Him, even those who don't want it, even those who say, who say, no, I want to live a hedonistic lifestyle. At some point, at some point, they will have suffered enough. That they will also go to a kingdom of heaven. I stand all amazed, not just at the love Jesus offers me. My true amazement is listening to other theologians of Christianity. Talk about how limited, how circuitous, how unknown and mysterious the depth of God's love is.

Gerrit While I can bask in this restored gospel that we have and stand amazed, Jesus' atonement is incredible. And thanks to Joseph Smith and Modern Prophets, I know anything about it. Because the moment Joseph stops being a prophet, there is no pre-mortal life. You are no longer the same type of being God is. You are just another creation that God created, knowing you would burn in hell. We don't have to believe that. Probably, I was a little too passionate there, Richard.

Richard On the Gerrit Dander Meter, I think you are about a 93. Is that high? I don't know, but it seems high.

Gerrit At some point, we are going to do what happens in Missouri.

Richard We are turning that up to 11.

Gerrit We are going to need another meter. Yes. We are going to need a meter that is– it's going to be like measuring things in Celsius instead of Fahrenheit. It's going to be– you are going to be like, oh, what is that? About 20 degrees? Yeah. In Saudi Arabia. Yeah. So anyway, thank you so much for joining us.

Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.

The Essential Answers to the Most Important Questions Part 2

A down year in Stillwater

Elder Carney's email, Fiji Suva Mission

Elder Uchegbu's email, a missionary from Nigeria

Russell M. Nelson on science and religion (not quoted on air)

Jonathan Edwards, Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God

Pastor clip: a child asks why God created the tree

Abraham 3:25

R. C. Sproul on the fall (title not named on air)

A book on the problem of evil by an agnostic former Christian scholar at North Carolina (not named on air)

Catholic priest clip on the Second Vatican Council and those who never hear of Jesus

Council of Trent on justification (as cited in a Catholic radio clip)

Apologist clip answering a woman from India about people who never hear the gospel

Romans 1-2 (as cited in the clip)

Romans 10:14-15

Frank Turek clip on those who never hear the gospel

Acts 17:26-27 (as cited by Frank Turek)

Isaiah 29:13 (identified, not cited on air)

Joseph Smith, funeral sermon recorded by Wilford Woodruff (the King Follett sermon; identified, not named on air)

D&C 93:29

John 1:1

Joseph Smith, King Follett sermon, on the ring and saving the dead

Brigham Young on everyone being saved in a kingdom of glory (source not named on air)

Elder Kearon on God's desperate pursuit of us (talk not named on air)

What was Oklahoma State coach Mike Gundy doing when Richard met him at a pizza place?

From 1962 to 1962

Putting numbers to words

What this episode talks about more than usual

Names said most

Signature words