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Notes from the committee
S4E46 · Questions About Eternal Sealings
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Standard of Truth · Season 4 · Episode 46 · 1:05:23

Questions About Eternal Sealings

A convert married to a man with no interest in the gospel was told she'd end up in heaven's 'servants quarters,' and Gerrit answers her with a promise from Lorenzo Snow: no faithful Saint will lose anything because an opportunity never came.

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The question ·
So please give us, who may leave this world with boxes unchecked, some idea what the prophets say.
Tracy (listener)

Richard's dissertation comes back from the committee with notes, and the hosts share tour news and explain how the Phebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag got its name. Then Richard reads an email from Tracy, a convert whose husband has no desire for the gospel, asking what the prophets actually promise people who may never be sealed in this life. Gerrit speaks tenderly about grief, unfairness, and people in many situations who wait for blessings that haven't come. He shares Lorenzo Snow and Joseph Fielding Smith teaching that no faithful person will be denied exaltation, and Joseph Smith's vision of families rising together in the resurrection. He ends with a simple promise: weeping may endure for a night, but joy comes in the morning.

Who comes upLorenzo SnowJoseph Fielding SmithJoseph SmithJames E. FaustPhebe Draper Palmer BrownSidney Rigdon
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Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I am joined by my friend, the almost doctor, though still laboring through it, Professor Richard LeDuc.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. Thanks for having me back. I submitted my dissertation to the committee. They had notes. They sent it back to me with a couple of weeks.
Gerrit Show notes that like a brand new Broadway protege gets the first time that they're acting, that the director sees them on a Broadway stage?
Richard Yes, it was similar in that way. They said, we like it except for all of the writing and the data and the analysis. But other than that, you got your name right. And so let's just give that another run through. And so I'm resubmitting it again in a week, with some changes, and then they'll give me some feedback. And then we are ever progressing. I will say, for what it's worth.
Gerrit It's like eternal progression, though. It's a little bit at a time, and 2,000 years from now, you'll come out of it.
Richard It's more like eternal punishment. Eternal punishment doesn't mean punishment forever. It just means God's punishment. It's similar in that way. I will say it is.
Gerrit Your progression on your deputation is punishment from God. That's what you're saying.
Richard I'm saying I can't imagine what... Well, I was about to say something blasphemous, but I stopped myself and I held back. And-
Gerrit You know how many people listening are proud right now?
Richard Yeah, they're really proud. Way to go. It was funny for what it's worth, but no, I held back. So I will say it's easier to make adjustments. And I'm overstating how much they hated it. I mean, they hated it a lot, but not as much as I said. And so it's easier to go in and make adjustments and tweaks. And there's a couple pieces of analysis that need to be adjusted and some different methods applied. But that's easier than writing the thing. I mean, at least it's done, and now it's in the modification stage, which I'm happy about.
Gerrit So that's something, I guess. Yeah, I mean, Richard has been under the gun. He's been quite stressed. For those of you who have a premium subscription, we even had one day where we had to press Angie into service, where Richard's deadline was such that I had to essentially say, hey, Angie, can you come help me upstairs with something? And as she followed me up, I shut the door, put a microphone in front of her and said, we're about to talk about the New Jersey plan of the Constitutional Convention. Now, I don't know what Richard was more sad about that he wasn't a part of that podcast or that he didn't get to talk about the New Jersey plan of the Constitutional Convention.
Richard I love the New Jersey plan. Yeah, no, I love the New Jersey plan. I was frustrated with Madison and his just wanting the super California and super Virginia. And so I was all in it on New Jersey. I imagine that you used a New Jersey accent quite a few times as you were telling the plan.
Gerrit I didn't because Angie's not very good at understanding accents. So if I did that, then she would have been lost.
Richard I haven't listened to it because I don't have the premium subscription, by the way.
Gerrit You know what's funny? The only way I can listen to it is because I have a paid premium subscription. I legitimately, occasionally people will be like, hey, is there any way you could send a gift subscription to so and so? If I gave you the money on the side? I'm like, no, I literally don't have. We don't have the ability to control any aspect of Spotify or Apple. They don't tell us who the subscribers are. They don't tell us what their logins would be or how you would help them. So people email us asking for help. And I'm like, I legitimately don't even know who's listening.
Richard Now it is possible that we could do that. I have just spent zero time looking into how we can provide free.
Gerrit I see. So you didn't try to figure out.
Richard Well, I have. Yeah, it's a misalignment of incentives, Gerrit.
Gerrit OK. But at the same time, I pay every year for my own subscription. I have to pay to listen to my self-talk. That is Dante's seventh ring.
Richard Well, Gerrit, we have actually several bits of announcements here in some housekeeping items. The Kirtland or the Palmyra Kirtland Tour has officially sold out, which is very exciting. So we look forward to seeing those folks in the Balmy August in Balmore.
Gerrit And we'll just pray for a cold front.
Richard Yeah. So that'll be fun. We still do have about six to ten spots available in the Missouri Nauvoo Tour. It's funny, last year was the opposite. Last year, the Nauvoo Missouri Tour sold out super quick and Kirtland took a little bit more time. And this time it's just the opposite. So we're really excited to have folks come to us on both of those. And in both tours, like with last time, we were able to go to places that previously were owned by the Community of Christ, and now ownership falls to the church. And it is a different field. It's great. It really is great.
Gerrit Yeah. So we hope that everyone has, if you've been thinking about it, we would love to have you come with us to Missouri. One of the things we were able to do last year that we have not been able to do in previous years is we were able to go to the Haun's Mill Massacre site. And for me, it has to be one of the most, I don't know how to describe it. Is there a word for saying that it's both somber and I'm mad at the same time? I don't know how to describe my feelings when I'm there. Knowing what happened there and going over the accounts of what happened there. So we would love to have people join us on that.
Richard It was everybody's favorite part of the tour. And part of the problem is that it's difficult to get to. And so you've got to have a bus driver that has experience and confidence.
Gerrit They've got to be willing to just say, you know what, dang the torpedoes full speed ahead.
Richard So we requested the same driver. She was awesome. And so we hope to be able to do that again.
Gerrit Yeah, that would be awesome. I have a housekeeping item. I want to give a shout out to one of our most loyal listeners. A lot of people will say things like, oh, I love listening to the podcast. And you know they're lying because they say, I love listening to the podcast. That's how you know they're lying. Yeah. It's essentially our entire audience is people that Officer R has thrown into the back of his car. It's Rachel's mom, my mom, and just a lot of people forced to listen. And then of course, missionaries who have no other access to any other type of medium.
Richard It is actually, our emails, we get lots and lots of emails, hundreds and hundreds of emails a month we get. And the missionaries are making up darn near close to 50% of them now. It's actually a lot of fun.
Gerrit We have hundreds of missionaries that are getting the free. And for those of you who don't know, we have on the premium side of the podcast, which some people always ask, well, why is there something that's premium? This all dates back to the fact that it's not free to run the podcast as much as people think that it is. As I just informed you, I pay over $100 a year in order to subscribe to myself so that I can hear my own podcast. So, but hosting it up, the equipment, all kinds of things are cost. And so initially people were offering to donate money to cover cost. And I just felt like, well, what if we could give the people that are donating to the podcast something? And so we developed these kind of spin-off podcasts where we cover church history chronologically. It's called Joseph Smith and the Restoration. We cover American history and early world history. We're up to the Constitutional Convention right now. We've also covered multiple places and that's called Condemn to Repeat It, as in those who failed to remember the past or condemned to repeat it.
Gerrit It's maybe not the best to quote a socialist atheist as your podcast line. Then we also did several episodes on some of the historic sites of the church, some of the places we call the holy places from our past. And so we give missionaries, full-time missionaries, complete access to that by way of giving them a Google Drive. And in places where their mission president lets them listen to that, they get it free. So that's when we say, if you're a missionary, look, there's two ways to get the premium content. You can subscribe, like I have to. Or, and it's 9.99 a month, or it's $99 for a year, which those things go to the operation of this and keeping us on the air. Or you can go on a mission. So I like to believe that there's multiple people that have gone on missions because they're like, I really want that premium content, but I'll be darned if I'm going to pay for it.
Gerrit And so they're like, you know what, honey? It's time. It's time we do that senior mission. And she's like, we're 42 now. And no, no, we're going. We got to get premium content.
Richard So going on a mission that'll cost $10,000 to get access to this, the premium content for free. I think that's the same way that my wife shops at Kohl's. That's the same math that she uses.
Gerrit I returned an item that I bought for $100. And so when I bought 300 more dollars worth of stuff, it was really only $200.
Richard That's right. It's like, yeah, okay, sounds great. It sounds great.
Gerrit Well, the shout out I wanted to give, though, real quick was to Meredith, who, how do I know she's a devout listener? Well, because my son was on the phone with her daughter the other night, in fact, just a couple nights ago. And in the background, what was playing was this podcast. Now, I would say that is a pretty, that is a, that is, now maybe Meredith set it up. Meredith, I have to let us know. Did you set that up? Did you like, did you like push play as soon as you found out that my son was on the phone? But, so we give you a shout out for being caught listening to the podcast.
Richard That's awesome. That's awesome. And Gerrit, and quickly, because you did mention this on the premium, but here to the tens of listeners that we have here, what you want to do next year on the Doctrine and Covenants for the, on the premium side, because we're going to kind of maybe suspend the Joseph Smith and the Restoration and the...
Gerrit What? I don't know if we're going to suspend it. I feel like we shouldn't be having a show meeting on air.
Richard Well, it's the only time we see each other.
Gerrit So, now, first of all, when Richard said this is my idea, it is not. I argued strenuously against it. And much like the live event, it just happened.
Richard We should do another one of those. That was fun.
Gerrit Okay, stop. We've got to stop. But we are going to, on the premium side of the content, because next year is Doctrine and Covenants, we are going to put out some, probably they will be brief, although some will be longer. And I think this beginning 10 minutes of the podcast lets you know that nothing will be brief and nothing will be good. But we're going to go through the Doctrine and Covenants, not with the come, follow me curriculum, but with the, just by going section to section and giving kind of a historical and theological breakdown of that section. Some of them I imagine will be 10 minutes long, others I imagine the world itself could not contain all of the minutes that would be devoted to something like Doctrine and Covenants, Section 76. So, if you've been leaning one way or the other like, I'd love to support the podcast, but I just don't know whether or not I like these guys at all. And frankly, I hate them more now.
Gerrit Maybe the fact that we're going to cover the Doctrine and Covenants on the premium side. Plus, we figured this would be a huge boon to the missionaries as that's an area of study for them that, that doesn't get a whole lot of play when they're in the MTC and things like that.
Richard I will say quickly before we get to the Phebe Draper, we did get a question by the way about the Phebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag and why it's named the Phebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag. I believe we were searching, we were wandering in the desert like Moses in search for the name of the mailbag and we were naming it after former Postmaster Generals of varying levels.
Gerrit We even named it after a Postmaster General of Quebec at one point, I believe.
Richard We did. We were looking for sponsorship from Jersey Mike's. That never materialized. But eventually, somebody suggested, hey, Phebe Draper Palmer Brown was a Postmaster in, was it Sandy?
Gerrit In Draper, I believe. In Draper.
Richard Draper. Yeah, that makes sense. Just outside of Sandy. Anyway, that would have made sense. Anyway, so we liked it. We read a little bit about her story. Her story is nuts.
Gerrit Yeah, we should do a whole episode on her. She's amazing. She's one of the women that makes the entire Mormon battalion march. Like a bunch of other people go back sick. They go back, you know, they stop in Santa Fe because if you've ever been anywhere west of Santa Fe, it's time to stop in Santa Fe. Whether you're sick or not, that's the end of your journey because you've got a long way before you're happy that you moved west of Santa Fe.
Richard Yeah, you're like Christian Bale in Newsies singing, you know, Santa Fe, are you there? I'm alone, but I'm not lonely.
Gerrit If they had seen Newsies, the Mormon battalion would have been singing Santa Fe, are you there? The whole way between New Mexico and Arizona, that stretch would have been just, it would have been rough.
Richard Well, so I did want to say you mentioned the missionaries listening on the premium side. And so a friend of the show Elder Abel from Mississippi, who served 11 months in our stake here in Layton, he was just transferred. And he stopped by and he's been called now to be a zone leader. And he credited the podcast and stealing all of the things to make him sound more spiritual and thoughtful. And he says he's going to take it all the way to the top.
Gerrit That's great.
Richard And by top, he meant district leader in the MTC.
Gerrit He's got to go down. Once you are an assistant to the president, you have to find a way to still be a district leader of the MTC.
Richard Because that's the highest.
Gerrit Because only then do you have the male key. Only then can you control the fate of the masses. So great.
Richard Anyway, Elder Abel, he got transferred all the way to Kaysville. So he's three streets over. We're going to miss him. But so on to the mailbag. Subject to air or not to air, I don't really care. Just to thank you.
Gerrit Oh, that's why we're going to put it on there. None of this demanding, if you don't put me on, I'm going to leave the church stuff.
Richard Although that would probably work too. I just wanted to thank you again for your podcast. This is my second email I've sent to thank you. I recently listened to your episode about Sidney Rigdon leaving in the months after Joseph Smith's murder. I honestly wasn't too interested in Sidney Rigdon.
Gerrit Well, we clearly did a great job.
Richard By the way, I made a joke on Sidney Rigdon part whatever about our son being Rigdon and how we name our kids after apostate members of the church. My wife wanted me to be very clear that we actually named him after his grandfather, who had a name, his name is Don. Anyway, I just wanted to be very clear about that.
Gerrit But it didn't stop you from naming him that, that he was an apostate.
Richard No, no, no. I always like the name. I think it's a great name. Something, something, something, something. Okay. I wasn't too interested in Sidney Rigdon, but I always get more than I bargained for in a great way when I listen. I got to the part where Brigham Young and the 12 apostles kept reaching out to reconcile with Sidney repeatedly. It was then that the spirit hit me and enlightened my understanding. I have been struggling over two years how to forgive or reconcile with my brother-in-law who had an affair and left his family and has been making terrible choices ever since. It felt like the natural step to offer him love rather than continue to focus on the pain he is causing, like Phil the adulterer. Now, Phil must be a friend or possibly brother of Bill the adulterer who-
Gerrit I think what we were talking about though, it would have been better if it was philandering Phil rather than Bill the adulterer.
Richard Yeah, you're probably right. That would have been better. To continually reach out as Brother Brigham did, thank you for being a channel through which the spirit can conduct. Thank you for all the time and effort you put into your podcast. It helps foster the spirit whenever I listen. Once you get past football, don't gamble, and stumbling through words, etc. All of which I appreciate. You have truly made a difference in my testimony of Joseph Smith and the early saints of the church. I hope one day my husband and I can go on a tour and meet and thank you in person. If not in this life, I will find you in the next since because of Jesus Christ is going to be a party for just about everyone. Keep up the great work. Thank you sincerely for all that you do. At your own expense and sacrifice of time with your family, you have helped to brighten my testimony sincerely, Andrea.
Gerrit That is a very kind email, Andrea, and far exceeds our actual abilities, but thank you. That's very kind.
Richard This next email is actually, we received this almost two months ago.
Gerrit And it has been gnawing into my soul the way, I mean, it's a little bit outside of my field of expertise, but also, anyway, I'll let Richard read it.
Richard Yeah, it is. Yeah. Greetings, you two. I have been listening to your podcast for a year now, and I've really grown to appreciate how long you can drag out the simplest subject. She starts with winning me over, you know, really does. The simplest subject to over an hour, and only spend 10 minutes finally explaining it in the most concise and simple way. As an added bonus, I can attest that it works on husbands as well as children, to put them to sleep almost immediately. I'm sorry if this won't be the most entertaining email. I am not a very funny person. Well, you're funnier than you think you are, because that was hilarious.
Gerrit Yeah, you've been spot on so far.
Richard But I figured you both would empathize with the attempt. I live in one of those hard-to-be-a-missionary places on the edge of the Bible belt in the southern US. Believe it or not, some are actually good enough to baptize people in these places, and that's how you end up with saints like me. I know you only want to talk about polygamy, but I wanted to write a request instead of a question. Please spend the last 10 minutes of an episode talking about celestial marriage for us that may not see it in this life. My story is one of many converts whose spouses has, whose spouse has no desire for the gospel. But there are other circumstances that may lead to the same issue. Whether it be due to a bad roll of the dice, or same sex attraction, I can imagine we are all sick of being told maybe someday.
Richard Truth is, sometimes, someday doesn't come. What promises do we have? I know in the early church, there were ceilings for eternity, only to protect people like me. When was that stopped and why? Okay, maybe there are a few questions. I have been told by some really hurtful, I have been told some really hurtful things over the years. From, I won't make it at all without being sealed, to make it to the celestial heaven, but be tucked away in the glorious servants quarters to serve those who got lucky. I have dedicated myself to living worthily. Surely, that will count for something. It scares me that my eternity could be like sitting at church alone, watching the big, happy families all around me. So please give us, who may leave this world with boxes unchecked, some idea what the prophets say.
Richard In all seriousness, thank you both for all you do. You have helped me grow my faith and made me a far better saint than I ever thought possible. You will never know the impact you have had on earth, but I am sure you will someday.
Gerrit Man.
Richard Tracy.
Gerrit First of all, that is beautifully written. The box is unchecked. And I have no doubt that there are many people, maybe not listening, but there are thousands of people who are in situations similar to the situation you're in. I think when we talk about eternal marriage, we have on the one side this explanation that everything points to the temple and to marriage. And because of Doctrine and Covenants section 131, we have the declaration from God through his prophet, that in order to become like God, we need to be a part of a sealed eternal marriage. The other side of that, right, is that not everybody has the opportunity, as you so ably said, far better than I'm saying it now.
Gerrit Some people never get married in this life. They want to be married, they desire to be married, and for one reason or another, they never end up getting married. And so as people talk about things like, oh, it'll be so great to be with my family and my children in the next life, all that person hears is, you got nothing for me then, huh? I actually know a brother, good guy. He's in his late 40s. He has been a faithful member of the church his whole life. He is a very kind man. He has gone to all the singles wards and he has, he has signed up for every one of those, you know, wonderful dating services that match you perfectly with their algorithm and not, not one of them has produced the result of him being able to find a spouse.
Gerrit And so I've had conversations with him where his pain is deep and it's real. And when we go to church and even when I hear someone casually say something like, well, you know, brothers, you know, bring your wives over to the da da da da da da in my heart, it just sinks just a little bit every time because I can sometimes, you know, see his face where he's like, well, I don't, I don't have the wife to bring. And it's not because I just not being faithful. It just hasn't worked out even when he thought it would. And there are many, many people that are in that situation. I think that unfortunately, one of the, one of the things that is not talked about enough is your particular, um, your particular situation where you are someone who's a member of the church and married to someone who's not a member.
Gerrit Not because you were, you know, growing up and, and, and, and your whole family was like, well, you need to be sealed in the temple. And you said, you're not the boss of me and walked out with, with a low and brow and a cigarette and then, you know, married the first motorcycle biker who came by. And, and, and you're like, oh wow, I didn't get married in the temple, but it just seems so sad that I'm not, you know, I mean, I'm not saying that that's what it's like for people who married outside of the temple. I'm just, I'm putting the caricature up. That I think sometimes people don't provide empathy for people in her situation. Because their default thought in their head is, well, you shouldn't have been married outside of the temple, right? That's their default thought in their, I'm not saying that the church isn't saying that. But given the fact that you listed several things in your email, apparently there are terrible people who are members of the church who do say things.
Gerrit But in your circumstance, it's even further from the truth. You're married to someone who's not a member because you weren't a member when you got married. So, so how is it that you could have known to be sealed in the temple before you knew there was a temple to be sealed in? I don't know who is telling you things like, maybe you'll be tucked away as a servant, but I strongly want them to not be a member of the church, or at least I want them to be. I want a kind of re-education, because I don't know who thinks that they are qualified and have the ability to speak to that topic, and to deliver that kind of cruel and false doctrine.
Gerrit My dander has gotten up a little bit.
Richard Yeah, I remember when we got this email. So we read all of the emails and are grateful for all of the emails that we receive. And sometimes there are emails like this one that stands out to where either I'll read it or usually Gerrit reads it first and sends me a text and says, hey, did you see Tracy's email? And then I'll go and read it and be like, oh my gosh.
Gerrit Yeah. And it, it kind of cut me to the, to the quick, cut me to the core. I mean, because I, one of the greatest aspects of the gospel of Jesus Christ is it deals with suffering and suffering is the worst part of mortality. And there's all kinds of different types of suffering. There are people who are listening who deal with chronic, horrible disease, cancer, physical maladies, mental health difficulties that cause them to physically and mentally suffer every day. There are other people listening who through horrible, horrible circumstances have had loved ones taken away. Children and spouses, brothers and sisters, friends, and in the hole that is now chopped into their soul from the death of those people, they can't seem to find a way to fill it.
Gerrit There is a constant agony that never fully goes away. I remember in the days after my dad died, it was horrific for me because I loved my dad so much, and he was a great man. And it was awful. And I remember that in those days, occasionally I'd get caught up. I'm working on a Joseph Smith Papers thing, and I'm printing things out, working on, and in the hustle and the bustle, I would forget about it. And for an hour, I wouldn't be in agony. And then all of a sudden I would remember, and the pain would come back, and it would be crippling. And I went through that again when my brother died suddenly. And similarly, I'd go an hour and a half, not thinking about it.
Gerrit And then I'd see a serial that I remember my brother loving, and I'd fall apart because, oh yeah, he loved that serial. So life has all kinds of unfairness in it. Life is filled with pain. Look, it's also filled with joy. Half of you don't even listen to the first 10 minutes of the podcast because you can't stand the fact that Richard and I laugh and enjoy one another's company when we get on here. I'm desperately trying to keep him sane because of his dissertation. So I have to make jokes about things just so I can keep him from wandering the streets, trying to hail cabs that don't exist. That's where his mental health is right now. But while there is happiness, I think it's safe to say that the incredible, wonderful, happy times we have, boy, it is hard for those happy times to trump the difficult ones.
Gerrit In part because sometimes the happiest times we had were with the people that we lost. And so remembering that happy time always comes with a little bit of a thorn on that rose, with a little bit of a barb that presses into the flesh. And our Lord and Savior knew this. Jesus did not think as he had the gospel restored to the earth, that every single person in every single couple in every single situation would have both spouses join the church. Because he is our Savior, he was well aware that some would hear his voice in this life. And some would not. And if those two people happened to be married, what did that mean for the person who believed?
Gerrit Well, you got nothing. You know, it's honestly worse that you do believe, because, you know, the fact that you believe means now you know what you're not going to get. I hope you enjoy being a servant. I hope you enjoy sitting there, watching everyone else happy in the great celestial sacrament. Although, I have to tell you that was the only part of your analogy I wasn't okay with, because if we're still going to sacrament meeting in the celestial kingdom, I'm going to look into Methodism. I need something else. I'm not so sure. I'm ready for that. Maybe if it's the primary program, always.
Richard Yeah, that's what I wanted. It's missionary homecomings and primary programs all year.
Gerrit Okay. All right.
Richard All right.
Gerrit You know what? Okay, I can sign up for that. But in all seriousness, there are people who struggle with the fact that they experience same-sex attraction. And as you said in your email, they aren't going to be married in this life. There are people who want to be married and can't find a spouse. There are people who are married to spouses who aren't members of the church. There are people who make the deliberate, difficult choice, that even though they experience same-sex attraction, they are not going to indulge in that and follow through on those feelings and those urges. And therefore, they remain separate and single for the remainder of their life. And there is a loneliness that I can't understand because I am married.
Gerrit I feel like I had a lot of conversations with a lot of people who experience it, including members of my own family who are single and will likely be single for the rest of their lives. I know that there's real pain there. But the part of the e-mail that set me off because she's not experiencing not being married, she's experiencing people telling her false doctrine about what her eternity is going to be like. In the world, you are going to have tribulation. In the world, there is suffering. But what offended me by what these people have said to you is that they're talking about your eternity, not the struggles that you have here.
Gerrit There's not really a magic wand that you can wave that makes everything work out. We received an e-mail from a couple, a devastating e-mail, where all of their children have left the church. And their children are now adults. And they just feel like, you know, what are the promises I even have? The whole, the whole point was, families can be together forever? Well, apparently not mine. First and foremost, I think we should be careful when we talk about what the final end of things is going to be in the next life. Frankly, we don't really know. And that's why it's so frustrating to me that someone would say something that, you know, you're going to, you know, be tucked away as a glorious servant's quarters.
Gerrit What does the church actually have to say about people who are not in sealed marriage relationships in this life? Are they the ones saying, welcome to being a servant? Is that what they're saying? Let's find out. What are they saying? Probably a good place to go, I think, is great. Is to, if you go to the eternal marriage student manual that the church puts out, okay? So this is for people studying about marriage. Either an institute or something similar to that is taught at some of the church schools as well. There's a great quote that's in there from Lorenzo Snow. There is no Latter-day saint who dies after having lived a faithful life. Who will lose anything because of having failed to do certain things when opportunities were not furnished him or her.
Gerrit So let me repeat that again. There is no Latter-day saint after having lived a faithful life. Who will lose anything because of having failed to do certain things or to put it in the terminology because boxes weren't checked, Tracy. Because opportunities were not furnished him or her. You can't force your husband to join the church. You can't force him and his agency to join the church and then be sealed. And so you are living a faithful life. Here is a prophet of God declaring to you that you will not lose anything. Now that can call up all kinds of questions. Well, how will that actually work though? Because I mean, if you do have to be married, does that mean that there's going to have to be another ceiling and a nut? I don't think we know how things are going to work out.
Gerrit And that's why it's difficult to talk about ceilings and marriages. First of all, they're so incredibly personal. But, second of all, we don't really know how. We don't know how the Lord is going to make everything work out in the next life. We only know that He is going to make it work. The members of the church, back to President Snow, who live faithful lives up to the time of their death, will have all of the blessings, exaltation and glory that any man or woman will have who had this opportunity and improved it. That is sure and positive. I mean, that's about as direct as you can get. I don't know how. Things will be made right in the next life. But I know that your eternity is not you sitting on a pew alone, wishing you had something that no one else had, because your life circumstances just so happened to be different than mine.
Gerrit I never had to go through what you went through. Frankly, I'm not a good enough person to have accepted the gospel the way you did. If I was born not a member of the church, there's no way I would have accepted it. I would have been very secular. I would have been, I would have thought, oh, what a wonderfully smart person I am. And when the missionaries came calling at my door, I would have shoved them away with my incredible intellect. Oh, really? I noticed you guys are using the King James Bible. Is there a reason why you're not using the Geneva Bible? Oh, that's interesting. I am sure that I would have been a pedantic, shallow, prideful piece of garbage. And Richard is nodding the whole time. He's just like, yeah.
Richard I don't think you've ever said anything more true. I obviously would have accepted the gospel.
Gerrit Now, you would see that the difference is, if he would, he already knew Becky, because Becky would have forced him to, I think. She would have taken agency away from him.
Richard I've often thought about this, actually. I've often thought about how just incredibly blessed my life has been that I was raised by two loving parents in the gospel. And I, man, I would sure like to think that I would have, but man, I can be a real arrogant jerk. And I sure hope that missionaries don't catch me on a bad day. That's actually the thing. The thing to me, the reason that I love the Restored Gospel as much as I do, is because I know how blessed I've been here. And I don't think that the Lord would set up a situation where me, who is the least of these, could have been as blessed as somebody else that my son's teaching in Peru. And somehow, there's nothing for them. I can't accept that.
Gerrit Yeah, part of the gospel that speaks to the very center of my soul is that everyone is going to have an equal opportunity to accept and embrace the gospel in this life or the next. And I got to tell you, I don't know what that constitutes. Frankly, even Tracy for your husband, because whatever his opportunity of embracing the gospel hasn't been the opportunity that I've had, no, it's not even been close. No, it's not even been similar. And so I don't know why we like to thump our chests and rush towards sometimes condemning other people's afterlife, as if we really certainly know what things are going to be like.
Gerrit In another place you could find this is from Joseph Fielding Smith, where he addresses this very thing, because look, once you say, as the prophet declared, that marriage isn't just okay, and it's not just that we're saying that marriage is, has the potential to be eternal. Look, yeah, okay, marriage does have the potential to be eternal. But the reason why we teach the doctrine of eternal marriage isn't because, oh man, the Sandals Resort is even better than you thought it was. Like, not only is it going to be, you know, my ties and a beach, obviously non-alcoholic my ties, although, you know, doctrine of section 27 says that they will be drinking wine when the Savior returns. I don't know, I don't know. Anyway. It's not just that you can have a marriage for eternity.
Gerrit It's that the only way that people can become like their Heavenly Father and their Heavenly Mother is through that relationship. There are no gods without goddesses. There are no goddesses without gods. And so once you state that this is essential for progression, of course, the very first question someone is going to have, and it is a good question. Well, what about this guy who never got married? What about this woman who never had an opportunity? What about this woman who was married to a man who was a member of the church who cheated on her and broke their covenants, and she goes the rest of her life without being married and sealed to anyone else? Is God just like, well, that's a tough break on that. Maybe you should have, you know, stopped him from cheating. You know, you know, the treasure king was all right.
Gerrit It's all right. It's all right. It's pretty good. It's pretty good. Apparently, then she becomes a, you know, a Jersey Mike spokesperson. But from this Joseph Fielding Smith manual, talking about this, he says, every soul whose heart is right will have the opportunity to receive the blessings of eternal marriage, whether in this life or the next. In the great plan of salvation, nothing has been overlooked. The gospel of Jesus Christ is the most beautiful thing in the world. It embraces every soul whose heart is right and who diligently seeks him and desires to obey his laws and covenants. Therefore, if a person for any cause is denied the privilege of complying with any of the covenants, the Lord will judge him or her by the intent of their heart. There are thousands of members of the church without access to temples who've married and reared families in the church who were deprived of the privilege of being sealed for time and eternity.
Gerrit Many of these have passed away and their blessings are given vicariously. The gospel is a vicarious work. Jesus vicariously performed a labor for all of us because we could not do it for ourselves. Likewise, he's granted the living members of the church. They may act as proxies for the dead who died without the opportunity of acting in their own behalf. Furthermore, there are thousands of young men as well as young women who've passed into the worlds of spirit without the opportunity of having these sealing blessings. Many of them have laid down their lives in battle. Many have died in their early youth. Many have died in their childhood. The Lord will not forget a single one of them. All the blessings belonging to exaltation will be given them, for this is the course of justice and mercy. So with those who live in the stakes designed in the shadows of our temple, if they are deprived of blessings in this life, these blessings will be given to them during the millennium.
Gerrit No one can be deprived of exaltation who remains faithful. An undeserving husband cannot prevent a faithful wife from exaltation or vice versa. Now that is about as direct as you can possibly get. What is exaltation? It is to be as God is. It is to become gods and goddesses. It is to truly fulfill the measure of our existence, because the glory of God is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of mankind. So the further questions become, well, how will that work? How will I have an eternal marriage that I wasn't able to have in this life? And unfortunately, like many questions that deal with sealing, that deal with the next life, the answer is, I don't know.
Gerrit Now, maybe that sounds like a cop-out. At the same time, there's a lot of things we don't know that we just believe. I don't know how it is that the atonement of Jesus Christ takes my sins from me. Now, the moment I say that, I'm going to have 400 former high priest group leaders email saying, well, actually, the way it works, I understand how the atonement works. Thanks. I'm not saying that I don't understand the atonement.
Richard That reminds me of my favorite James E. Faust joke relating to what you're talking about. I know we obviously we, I mean, the high priest group isn't the same that it was with recent changes in the organization of the church, but he was at a state conference. And someone asked him when the Second Coming was going to be. And we had an area 70 that spoke in our ward the Sunday after President Faust had passed away. And I know how much you love President Faust, Gerrit.
Gerrit I love President Faust.
Richard And so he was a good friend of President Faust. And so he shared this story. And so anyway, he's at the state conference. And someone asked when the Second Coming was, and President Faust says, you know, brother, I don't know, but if you could join me at church in my ward, I have six or seven high priests that could probably tell you what it is.
Gerrit Right. Well, so my, my point in saying that is, what I mean is, look, I understand the mechanics of the atonement in the sense that Jesus died for us. And that's the only way I can have my sins taken from me. But I can't actually describe to you how that works. I can't. I don't have the ability to describe it. I know that it does. Similarly, I don't know how it is that you will not lose one part of the glory and happiness of exaltation that every other member of the church has. If you live this life faithfully, somehow with an all-powerful God at the helm, you are going to have everything. And that's actually what is promised.
Gerrit What is promised is that you will obtain of a fullness. Doctrine and Covenants section 93. I don't have it up in front of me, so I'm going to misquote it a little bit. But it says that the son went from grace to grace until he received of a fullness. And then goes on to say that each of us can obtain of that fullness. In the same way that Jesus obtained everything that our father had, all of us as divine eternal beings, as beings that weren't created five minutes ago, but as eternal beings that are the same type of being that God is, the same type of being that your Heavenly Mother is, the same type of being that Jesus is. That means we have the ability to become like they are, because as we learned from Joseph Smith and the King Follett sermon, you suppose that God has been God from all eternity?
Gerrit I will refute that idea. Again, I don't have it in front of me. So, you know, you can email in and be like, Gerrit, why didn't you say the quote right? Well, which version was I using? There's four different versions. So maybe I was using the Bullock version maybe. See, that's the reason why I wouldn't have accepted it. If a missionary came to the door, you could already see it.
Richard Yeah, no, the more you say it, the more I'm like, no, we're lucky you accepted it being raised in it.
Gerrit Frankly, I'm almost out of my way right now.
Richard By the way, if people in her ward or area are saying stuff like that, no wonder her husband isn't a member of the church.
Gerrit Yeah, seriously. Maybe we should get some membership filling. So you just love the devil more than God, that it? What's going on there? I have had those experiences where people are teaching people false doctrine, and that that false doctrine then is what is affecting their salvation. Her question is a great one. I like to go back to Joseph Smith's sermon. I mean, all roads lead back to Joseph Smith, right? In part because Joseph Smith knew Jesus. And so when he's telling us about Jesus, it is something that resonates with me. He's not talking about Jesus in an abstract way. He's talking about Jesus in a direct way. Talking about those who die early, he's talking about the resurrection.
Gerrit And he says, if we learn how to live and how to die, when we lie down, when we contemplate how we may rise up in the morning, it is pleasing for friends to lie down together, locked in the arms of love, to sleep and wake in each other's embrace. Would you think it's strange that I relate what I have seen in vision in relation to this interesting theme? Those who have died in Jesus Christ may expect to enter into all that fruition of joy when they come forth, which they have possessed here. So plain was the vision I actually saw men before they ascended from the tomb as though they were getting up slowly. They took each other by the hand, and it was my father and my son, my mother, my daughter, my brother, my sister. And when the voice calls, suppose I am laid by the side of my father, what would be the first joy of my heart? Where is my father?
Gerrit My mother, my sister. They are by my side and I embrace them, and they embrace me. It is my meditation all the day, and more than my meat and drink, to know how I shall make the saints of God comprehend the visions that roll like an overflowing surge before my mind. Oh, how I would delight to bring before you things which you never thought of, but poverty and the cares of the world prevent it. But I am glad that I have the privilege of communicating to you some of those things which have grasped closely will be a help to you. When the clouds are gathering and the storms are all ready to burst upon you, when peals of thunder lay hold on these things, let not your knees tremble or your hearts faint. What can earthquakes or wars and tornadoes do? Nothing.
Gerrit All of your losses will be made up to you in the resurrection, provided you continue faithful. By the vision of the Almighty, I have seen it. I believe that Joseph is speaking much more than just the personal losses when people have died. All of those losses through the atonement of Jesus Christ, all of the hurts and the pains, all of the unfairness of this life will somehow, in a way we can't describe from an eternal being that died for us, in a way we can't express, will somehow be made right. And you are going to have the fullness of joy. How will everything be made right? I don't know. I don't have any keys, any authority or any power.
Gerrit All I can do is quote what previous prophets have said. But I can also bear my testimony as the Spirit speaks to me on the basis of their words. You and the thousands upon thousands upon thousands upon thousands of men and women in this church, who similarly don't have an avenue open to them to have that eternal ceiling in this life. God has promised through his prophets, that you will obtain all the father has. And so when someone says, well, I don't know, I don't think you're going to end up with the same thing. You can know that they don't know what they're talking about. And unsurprisingly, people who don't know what they're talking about are more than willing to share their opinion about things.
Gerrit Maybe they meant it in a good nature. Maybe they thought they were delivering some kind of hard truth that you really needed to just come to terms with. But when it comes to sealing and it comes to eternal life, let's let the Lord Jesus Christ speak. Let's let His prophets and apostles speak. And however difficult it is, sometimes someday never comes in this life. But in the eternities, someday most definitely does come. In the eternities, everyone's someday comes. And everyone who is faithful will have a fullness of joy. Now, that is cold comfort, maybe, when you're going through the suffering. I don't want to have an eternal marriage 50 years from now.
Gerrit I want it now. But the promise is you will have it. And unlike the situations of this life, whether it is life or poverty or death, that are horrible and difficult, and the suffering mounts upon suffering, this is all incredibly temporary. And the eternity that you're going for, there is no way to even describe in any way that we could comprehend how long it will endure and how great our joy will be. So, I hope that you continue to hold on in faith, knowing that somehow, somehow, through the atonement of the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, you will not be sitting alone on the pews watching other families gather.
Gerrit You're going to have all of the joy that your Heavenly Father has. And I don't know how that will happen, but I know that it will happen. The great aspect of the Gospel. What makes this Gospel separate from the millions upon, or the billions of Christians professing their love for Jesus? They progress it, they profess it earnestly, they love Jesus, they want to serve Jesus. But one of the great vast differences is they proclaim a Lord and Savior who they say loves everyone, but most people do not experience that love. Most people have an eternity that is misery after having a mortality filled with misery. We proclaim the opposite. Mortality has misery, but in the next life, everything will be made right.
Gerrit Weeping may endure for the night, but joy cometh in the morning. The morning for all of us, that glorious resurrection day, when we are all made whole physically, when we are in the presence of God and Jesus, and somehow everything will be made right. I pray that you don't allow those intrusive negative thoughts of how things will work to in some way affect what you do believe. Because God has promised, this is not a members only club. This is not something that people are only going to have happiness if they just so happen to join the church at the right time before they were married so they could get sealed. If only I have a spouse that doesn't leave the church and cheat on me. If only my kids, that is not what God has promised.
Gerrit God has promised a fullness of joy if you make and keep sacred covenants. I am so grateful for the nature of the gospel that it will be absolutely fair to everyone. It's not based upon where you were born or when you accepted it. It's not based upon your level of poverty or riches. It's not based upon whether you're in America or Africa. Somehow, everyone will have an equal chance, and no one will be denied the blessings of eternity. And that, as Brigham Young said when he talked about the universal salvation of mankind, that comforts my soul. It's the greatest doctrine that exists. So, thank you so much for joining us. I know that was a little preachy there, huh, at the end, wasn't it? Boy, I went from being a terrible member to being preachy. I think, I really, I only exist in extremes.
Richard It's very nice.
Gerrit That's what the people want.
Richard Yes.
Gerrit Thank you so much for joining us.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.

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It's like eternal progression, though. It's a little bit at a time, and 2,000 years from now, you'll come out of it.

GerritBanter

I have to pay to listen to my self-talk. That is Dante's seventh ring.

GerritBanter

I think that's the same way that my wife shops at Kohl's. That's the same math that she uses.

RichardBanter

In part because sometimes the happiest times we had were with the people that we lost. And so remembering that happy time always comes with a little bit of a thorn on that rose, with a little bit of a barb that presses into the flesh.

GerritInsight

Although, I have to tell you that was the only part of your analogy I wasn't okay with, because if we're still going to sacrament meeting in the celestial kingdom, I'm going to look into Methodism.

GerritBanter

It's missionary homecomings and primary programs all year.

RichardBanter

We don't know how the Lord is going to make everything work out in the next life. We only know that He is going to make it work.

GerritInsight

I sure hope that missionaries don't catch me on a bad day.

RichardBanter

But in the eternities, someday most definitely does come. In the eternities, everyone's someday comes.

GerritInsight

Mortality has misery, but in the next life, everything will be made right.

GerritInsight

More from this episode

Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.

Claim check

What critics say, and what the episode found
A faithful member who is never sealed in this life will end up in the celestial kingdom's 'servants' quarters.'
Members who married outside the temple simply should have known better.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.

Take it to class

Ready to copy into a lesson or a text

Lorenzo Snow taught that no Latter-day Saint who lives faithfully will lose anything because opportunities were not given to them in this life.

Joseph Fielding Smith taught that 'no one can be deprived of exaltation who remains faithful,' and an undeserving spouse cannot prevent a faithful one from exaltation.

We don't know how the Lord will make every sealing work out, but we know he will, and everyone who is faithful will receive a fullness of joy.

Be careful what you say about someone else's eternity; 'someday' may not come in this life, but in the eternities everyone's someday comes.

Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.

Banter bin

The running jokes, for people who skip ahead
Richard's PhD, any day nowCommittee notes like a Broadway newcomer gets, and progress like eternal progression, or eternal punishment (1:07, 1:45, 1:54).
Angie and the New Jersey PlanPressed into service upstairs for the Constitutional Convention, without the New Jersey accent (2:50, 3:31).
Paying to hear yourselfGerrit pays for his own premium subscription, Dante's seventh ring, and Richard has a 'misalignment of incentives' about gift subscriptions (4:02, 4:47, 4:51).
Officer R and the captive audienceThe audience is people in the back of Officer R's car, Rachel's mom, Gerrit's mom and missionaries (7:25).
Go on a mission for premiumA 42-year-old couple's senior mission, all for free premium content, using Becky's Kohl's math (10:37, 10:49, 11:03).
No show meetings on airRichard announces Doctrine and Covenants premium episodes that Gerrit argued against, like the live event (12:29, 12:41).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagNamed after a search through postmasters general, including one from Quebec, and a Jersey Mike's sponsorship that never came (14:15, 14:39, 14:43).
The MTC mail keyElder Abel, now a zone leader, is taking it all the way to the top: MTC district leader (15:59, 16:39, 16:48).
Rigdon, named for Grandpa DonBecky wants it known their son was named for his grandfather, not for an apostate (17:38).
Bill the Adulterer's brotherAndrea's 'Phil the adulterer' should have been Philandering Phil (18:01, 18:52).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

Your question could be next week’s episode
Questions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
General ConferenceGeneral Conference talks that cite a scripture read in this episode.

In General Conference

Talks from the latest General Conference that cite a scripture this episode reads or names on air
October 2026 General Conference · cites D&C 93:12–13I Am a Child of GodElder Hutch U. FaleElder Fale teaches that every person is a beloved child of heavenly parents, illustrating God's unearned love by showing his children their baby pictures: they did nothing to earn their parents' love and can do nothing to lose it.

Summaries, themes and lessons for every talk are on What Did They Say?

Go deeperWhere to read more.

Go deeper

Deep dives the episode points toward
Phebe Draper Palmer Brown's life and her march with the Mormon Battalion, an episode the hosts say she deserves (15:11).
The Eternal Marriage Student Manual's teachings on those who are never sealed in this life (38:17).
Joseph Smith's sermon on the resurrection and families rising together (55:25).
The versions of the King Follett sermon, including Thomas Bullock's, and how they differ (53:50).
SOT Litner · S4E46.