Where is Zion?

Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.

Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I am joined by my friend, my erstwhile companion, someone who is still trudging through the depths of dissertation swamp. He's in the Everglades of dissertation revision, Richard LeDuc.

Richard Hello, Gerrit. Thanks for having me back. Yeah, it's great to be here. Great show, as always. I'm glad for the opportunity to come here, and we've got a fun topic. We've got some very funny emails from many missionaries that are proving to be hilarious.

Gerrit These missionaries are, some of them need to get into some standup routines.

Richard Just really funny stuff.

Gerrit For an 18-year, this is gonna surprise most of our listeners, but apparently some 18-year-olds are very sarcastic. Now, there's a considerable number of our listeners are like, what?

Richard Yeah, it was funny, actually. Our son rigged in down in Peru. He had a missionary that came into his zone, and it was his first day in the great country of Peru. And they gathered in a church building there in Miraflores, where the mission office is, or near it. And somebody came and stole all of his stuff that was there at the church.

Gerrit Like it was just sitting out in a bin or something, or he came with a gun? No.

Richard Well, so there's multiple versions of the story. All I know is this missionary from Orem has been in Peru for four seconds, and all of his stuff is gone. It's all been stolen. And so he's telling us the story and he's doing it in the most sarcastic way possible. It was very unfortunate, obviously, but the way my son told the story, it was very funny. I will tell you though, the mother reached out to the places that they purchased the items from.

Gerrit Give them a shout out if they did something.

Richard You know what I should? Let me pull them up here. I will do that because it was quite remarkable.

Gerrit They may not want the shout out. We can't have everyone who's robbed in Peru coming back to get their stuff back. We will break the bank.

Richard So, look, first of all, Rigdon's been robbed three times. One at knife, one at gunpoint, one he got decked in the head.

Gerrit Rigdon's a big guy. Who's hitting him?

Richard Rodrigo was his name, actually. It was very funny, actually. Well, I thought it was funny. Again, his mother didn't think it was quite as funny as me. So it's the next day after he gets decked in the back of the head and his stuff stolen and they're walking and they're like, hey, what'd you do to make Rodrigo so mad? But because it because he got robbed by the church, right? And they're like, what are you talking about? The guy that punched you and whatever. And he's like, I didn't do anything. He just came up and decked me and stole my stuff. And they're like, that's Rodrigo, you know.

Gerrit Crazy Rodrigo.

Richard Anyway, so these place are the mom. So the reason that, you know, my son reaches out to us, he talks to his mission president, his mission president knows that we're coming down to South America and we're going down actually this week. We leave tomorrow, so.

Gerrit Oh, wow. Wow. So, so you're about to, and yet here you are.

Richard Here I am.

Gerrit Dedicated to the proposition.

Richard Here I am.

Gerrit Dedicated to the proposition.

Richard Yes.

Gerrit This podcast continues to go out.

Richard Yes.

Gerrit This podcast continues to go out.

Richard Yes, to Zion, which is North and South America. So, so we're going down with a friend of ours, Carlos, who's going to be coming down with us. He's going to help with translation and stuff with the, the wonderful saints from Rio Gallegos, Argentina to the Buenos Aires temple. And so he's going to be going, he's from Peru and so he's going to go to Argentina and then he's going to go over to Peru. And so my wife calls him up and is like, hey, can you take like three more suitcases of stuff for this missionary that was robbed anyway? So we're trying to coordinate with the mom and whatever. And she said, so yesterday she reaches out to, let's see, who were they? It was a caller, Odeon and Missionary Mall. And told them the story and they replaced all of the items for free, which is just so, so nice of them.

Gerrit They may not want that shout out. I was robbed in my basement by needing a new pair of shirts.

Richard Anyway, so they, I mean, so nice of them, but it still costs so much money to get it down. So we're loading our buddy Carlos up with like three suitcases. That's great stuff to take to Peru. So anyway, but he, when he told this story, he did it in a very sarcastic and I mean, it's not funny yet the way he told it, it was kind of hilarious.

Gerrit Well, so this is Richard going down to complete the Sweetwater Rescue trip for this year, where they are taking over a hundred saints from rural Argentina to the temple. And all thanks to listeners listening to us, who donated money, who put their money, where their testimony was, in order to help get saints that they don't know to the temple. This is pretty awesome.

Richard So, literally, we received donations from nearly 200 listeners to the podcast from every continent except, I believe, Antarctica. We're very disappointed, obviously.

Gerrit Well, I feel like the seven scientists who were there have a very agnostical outlook on life. That's, yeah, look, if you're already depressed because you're a scientist and then you're in Antarctica, you're not donating anybody.

Richard No, but it's so awesome. We're going to go down there and we're going to spend time with these saints that we're going to be helping in the temple and in the Baptist tree with the youth and stuff. It's going to be just awesome. So I'm excited to come back and to tell that story. So we're recording this. I mean, we're releasing this on Thursday and then Friday we leave and that'll be gone for a week. So we'll be having Angie record all the others. Yeah, that's right. That's right. So we'll be sure to share the experience. But anyway, we'll have cool videos that we'll be able to share. And I literally cannot thank the Litners enough for just their incredible kindness. And Garry, we were talking about this before the show, before we hit record. And just the craziness of it all, just that how kind and wonderful that they don't know us, and they sure don't know the people there. And it doesn't matter, because President Nelson said, going to the temple is the most important thing you can do, and these saints can't get there.

Richard And you know what? We're going to help people we don't know do something that we believe to be important. And that's just beautiful.

Gerrit Yep. Like I said, they're putting their money where their testimony is. One thing to say, well, I sure hope those people get to the temple. It's quite another to say, yeah, I sure hope they get to the temple, and I'm going to pay their way to get there, because I want them to go to the temple that bad.

Richard Yeah. Well, so, Gerrit, to the Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag and a couple of missionary e-mails. We received several missionary e-mails from family members asking how can they get access to the podcast, the premium stuff, and we just need their-

Gerrit I'm acquainted with our secret works.

Richard They just need to send us their missionary e-mail, and then we'll give it to them, and then they can have access to it, and go and hit specifically Joseph Smith and the Restoration. That seems to be a very popular one.

Gerrit I feel like they need to learn about the great inversion in early colonial America.

Richard Moving from indentured servitude to slavery, you think that's a major-

Gerrit Well, that's what they feel like when they go from training to being a trainee to being a trainer as a missionary.

Richard My son credits Condemned to Repeat It on his mission for the 92% he got on his midterm in American Heritage. So that's something.

Gerrit That's good.

Richard Yeah, he's like, that's 92% in American Heritage. That's like, it's incredible.

Gerrit Richard is in my class currently and has decided that he's going to grow a mustache.

Richard It looks so terrible.

Gerrit First of all, all of them look terrible. But second of all, his especially does. His looks like he got in a fight with his mustache and lost. It's just not even really there, but...

Richard It is, it is gonna just, just pictures from this month are gonna dramatically impact our ability to ever have grandchildren, because I don't know who's signing up for that. He did, he did have a funny line though, in your class today, I believe.

Gerrit Yes. Well, not during class afterwards, but I said, are you trying to grow a mustache? And, and he said, yes. And I'm like, yeah, well, it's kind of missing the whole middle part of your lip. And he said, yes, even my upper lip knows that I'm Jewish. And so it won't grow the Hitler part of the mustache because it can only grow in the hair on the right and the left side. And the middle part is just bare. So he looks like, he honestly looks like a, like a 1920s carnival barker on like a New Jersey, you know, like, like an Atlantic city is what he looks like. Because there's nothing in the middle but these little, you know, pointy things on the side.

Richard It's, yes. So anyway, on, that's very funny. On to the mailbag. Hey, Dr. Dirkmaat and Professor LeDuc. This is Elder Nickel from the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania mission. We own Pittsburgh.

Gerrit It's a state. Well, it's actually a commonwealth. We had people correct us. It's a commonwealth.

Richard Yes. So we own that mission. We have 40 missionaries. We legit have like 30 missionaries from that mission.

Gerrit The mission president there must hate us. He must be so tired of people like sharing, like, you know, I just really heard about what the witnesses said. And, and you know that there's some elder who's like, let me tell you about when Angel Moroni appeared like a Spanish conquistador, and that, you know, you know that someone's doing that. I'm sure Rocky's probably already done it in his elder's court.

Richard Oh, I guarantee it. I guarantee it. Well, so here's the, here's the thing that's funny, is that like in, in a normal ward or in a normal setting, in a Sunday school class, when people reference something that they listen to, it's usually follow him.

Gerrit Well, it's usually something that's not us.

Richard Well, sure, but it's almost always that. It's never us, except for in what I imagine is a Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania mission zone conference.

Gerrit Yeah, it's all us?

Richard We're follow him in that zone conference for sure. It's very exciting.

Gerrit It was the demographic we had to have. We had to have the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania mission, and we got it.

Richard And all you had to do is trash this Pittsburgh second ward.

Gerrit It's funny that that really inspired many more listeners. It must have been like the first and third wards must be like, you got to listen to these guys. They're finally on our side.

Richard You get the second words got to be so sanctimonious.

Gerrit Oh, yeah. The second ward's always talking down to everybody. You're wondering what we're talking about. We had a listener's email many years ago. Like a year ago, maybe.

Richard Yeah, a year.

Gerrit Where they were told that the Pittsburgh Second Ward was the oldest ward in the church east of the Mississippi. And so we talked about that. So that's the reason why we're talking about this, Pittsburgh Second Ward, looking down on other people.

Richard I was wondering if Yins could extend premium access to yours truly. My trainer has been practicing priestcraft with his subjugation of yours truly, with his famous cooking and soul holding of the premium access. I am about to transfer out. So I need to gather his tools of priestcraft for when I train. Thank you so much for your podcast. It has helped me learn so much about Joseph Smith and the kind of man he is. Keep killing it out there proverbially. So that's from Elder Newell.

Gerrit Good thing you said proverbially. That would be...

Richard Yes, yes, for sure.

Gerrit Yeah, I would hate to think that in addition, the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania mission is encouraging us to murder.

Richard This next email comes from Brannon. Daughter and son on a mission. I have a son in Salta, Argentina and a daughter in Omaha, Nebraska. They don't have access to podcasts. But we'd love to listen to you. My daughter is particularly interested, given her high level of sarcasm and repeated references to the fornicating fornicator, Dr. Philastus Hurlbut. What's the best way for them to get access?

Gerrit She absolutely needs access. If she likes to hear some fornicating fornicator, she needs access.

Richard Yes. This next person comes to, email comes to us from Kimber, who has a last name that's unique and has to be related to somebody that I served with because it's a fairly unique name. Great missionary, by the way, in Southern California. I have been procrastinating writing this email. As much as Richard has been procrastinating with his dissertation. But maybe you need to hear this because the thought just keeps coming back. Sometimes you mentioned that someone has objected to your nonsensical preambles. Here's the thing.

Gerrit Okay. Well, we just did that for the first 12 minutes here, I guess. I mean, we're reading emails, but we're laughing right now.

Richard Talking about good old Peru robbery story.

Gerrit I mean, that's not what the people want.

Richard There aren't that many people in the history of the world who have a friendship like yours. I have six children, five boys, and if I could wish one thing for them, it would be an understanding that they can be as goofy and fun-loving and easily distracted as they want and still have a rock solid, unshakable, willing to shout it from the rooftop testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Your example of being real flesh and blood men who love one another and the Prophet Joseph and have fun is a rare gem. Our young people need to understand that they don't have to be wearing a suit and tie sitting in a red velvet chair, reading a flawless script from a teleprompter in order to be effective disciples of Jesus Christ. Thank you for your uplifting and positive examples of brotherhood and the gospel. Our brotherhood and the gospel.

Gerrit That was very nice. Incredibly kind. What a beautiful prose she wrote with too. Wow. She must be an author of some kind. That was beautiful. Thank you. And hopefully, I mean, as much as some of you are annoyed by it, I mean, there's obviously a method to our madness, or at least we say that when really we just like to joke around.

Richard Wait, is this, I think this is the same, is this the same Kimber? Hold on. I think that she had e-mailed in before and I think that she had done a TED talk. She's, that, that writing is far too smart, actually.

Gerrit Yeah, it's better than this.

Richard Oh, yeah, much.

Gerrit We can discern, we can discern when people are better.

Richard So this, this, this e-mail, I think is the jumping off point, Gerrit, for the topic you want to discuss. I'm excited to finally have something pertinent to share that I think will add something of value to your content. Last weekend, I attended the temple with my Relief Society Sisters as the St. Paul Minnesota Temple has recently reopened after a six-month closure. With the ease of family search, I was able to print family names for ceilings, daughters to parents, and was grinning like a fool when I came across these relatives' names. One of my distant cousins is Albertine Missoura Bundy, who was born in North Carolina in 1836. I'd say this is a solid evidence for the correct pronunciation of the state name, although probably more of a thick liquid because I do make some assumptions. Because it originates from the US. 1850 census, and as such is somewhat contemporary to the timeframe when the early church members had residences in Missoura, or Missouri, at least her birth date is anyway.

Richard My assumption is analogous to Joseph Smith writing Chich, C-H-I-R.

Gerrit The Chich.

Richard Chich. The good Patrick and the Chich. As he would pronounce it, the parents of his daughter named her Missoura and spelled it after their pronunciation of the state name. I have no other evidence to offer, so this argument might be waning into the flimsiest of viscosities as well into the gaseous territory. But I wanted to share it anyway. I've taken a screenshot of the information and family search, yada, yada, yada. I also wanted to say how grateful I am for your recent podcast. Can't say how recent with your non-existent indexing, where Brigham Young-

Gerrit Good shot, good shot coming at us.

Richard As soon as this dissertation is done, as soon as it's done, I'm going to get on it. I'm going to start indexing. Danielle, I can promise you that's going to happen sometime this century, where Brigham Young references Joseph Smith is saying, The whole of North and South America is Zion, because my husband went to Missouri on a business trip recently, and his review of Missouri was similar to the early Saints and yours and the participants of the tours you lead there. Namely, I'm not sure if I can go to Missouri, if the Prophet calls us back to populate Zion, you might have to go without me. For the sake of my marriage, I want to believe Minnesota can be a Zion too. Of course, this was said in jest, and as natives to San Diego, who have lived in Utah, Ohio, Maryland, South Carolina, and now Minnesota, since we've been married, I think we can justly say, we've gone where the Lord has wanted us to go, and we have been immensely blessed in each of the places we've lived and have been able to build great relationships with our ward families as well as members in each of these areas.

Richard I'm so grateful for the information and testimonies you share on the podcast. Thanks for all you do, Danielle.

Gerrit Well, thank you, Danielle. First of all, I'm fairly confident, and we have so many listeners in Missouri, or Missouri, that I have listened to people in Missouri today. That's how they pronounce their own state. I don't think it's so much the case in St. Louis. I think in St. Louis, you hear people say Missouri. And if you watch St. Louis television, I don't know that you do. I mean, if you ever just casually watch St. Louis television, if you're just bouncing around on the radio dial scanner that you have, and you're like, you know what? I want some St. Louis radio. You'll find that, I, at least when I'm there, it seems like everyone says Missouri, the same way that most people say it. I will say, however, on the other side of the state, in the Kansas City area, especially the more rural you go, I do hear people say Missouri as the way they pronounce the state.

Gerrit They say Missouri, not, not, not Missouri. What about you, Richard? Do you have any, any experience of that?

Richard Yeah, no, I, I, one of my wife's favorite things to do is when we're in a place, is she likes to watch the local news in the place where we're at. Now, I don't care about local news in the place where I live, but she likes to watch it in a place that we're visiting. And I have seen local news in St. Louis while in St. Louis, and I can attest that that is correct. And I spent a lot of time in and around the rural parts of Kansas City in my work career. And, and, but I mean, almost any rural place, you're going to be dropping all kinds of stuff. I mean, I grew up in, Becky makes fun of me when I, she says I'm a chameleon when I go home and I'm starting to conjugate words that I don't normally conjugate because I'm more in rural Idaho and that's the way it is.

Gerrit Look, there's a borrow pit when I'm back home in Idaho. There just is. You say that in Utah, people look at you like you've just killed somebody. Like you're the murderers that the Pennsylvania mission thought we were. You know, and some, some of this, you know, conjugation gets into our, our, our, you know, to the point where it's so natural and so normal that people put it into their regular lives. Like I, our elders quorum function this last week, we went with our wives to the Mo Betta's restaurant in, in Spanish Fork, which is obviously a Hawaiian, you know, way of saying it's, it's more better. And we actually met the, the general manager of, of the Mo Betta's in, in Spanish Fork, a guy by the name of Joe, super nice guy. And apparently either recognized me or recognized my voice and came up to let me know he was a big fan of the podcast. So shout out to Joe.

Richard Oh my gosh.

Gerrit With great food, by the way, too. Everyone should go.

Richard Oh my gosh. Hawaiian food is the best. The only place better than Jersey Mike's, Mo Betta's. Go to Mo Betta's for your, for all of your lunch or dinner needs and go to Missionary Mall where if you get robbed, they're going to replace all your stuff.

Gerrit That's not in writing and we aren't spokespeople. Honestly though, it was great food, but I think it's a pretty good assumption of what you're making, Danielle, that when they named their daughter, Missouri, that's, they probably did spell it the way it would have been pronounced. So that's an interesting thing. But on your second point, I really want to spend a little bit of time on this in part because I am inundated. Well, that, maybe that's too strong of a word. I am regularly confronted by... I'm not drowning. I'm not in a river. I'm not in the Missouri trying to get across, but I am regularly either confronted by email or by text or by people who are really worried about the Second Coming. Okay? And I want them to be worried about the Second Coming. It's important.

Gerrit You do need... When the prophet says you need to get yourself ready, well, then you need to get yourself ready. And the problem is that sometimes we are... We have zeal without knowledge, right? We so desperately want a thing that it actually opens the door for people to using our zeal to kind of carry us down a road that's not accurate. The other day, a friend of mine called me and asked me about a particular end of times scenario that is making its way on the internet, which, you know, is proved by the little feather that Donald Trump would be re-elected and on down the line. I mean, it was just, it's this whole thing. And I was, I thought I was talking to my good friend.

Gerrit It wasn't Richard, so it was a good friend. And I thought I was talking to my good friend. And so I unleashed on this faux theory that challenges prophetic utterance. And I just, I went off. And about five minutes into my ranting about how wrong this theory was and why it was wrong and how we just need to learn how to follow the prophet, not someone that we read on Twitter. My friend comes back on the line. He's like, Hey, I just wanted to let you know I was with the guy and put it on speakerphone when I asked you. And he never told me that the guy was with him or that he put it on speakerphone. So I ranted like an idiot. And he was like, you know what, though? He was like, yeah, that's what I needed to hear. So I'm like, yeah, probably. We just shook hands, it was all a big misunderstanding, I guess.

Richard But now in fairness, Gerrit, that's not on you. Look, when my wife calls me and it's on speaker because people in the car, it's the first thing I say.

Gerrit Hey, I'm on speaker. Yeah.

Richard Yeah, before, yeah, I'm on speaker. Just be careful.

Gerrit Because like you're with your boss and she calls like, hey, are you with that loser? Oh, she loves your boss. But I mean, if it was someone that you disliked that you were with at the time.

Richard Yeah, it's a huge football. So that's not on you, Gerrit.

Gerrit Yeah. Well, so, but the point being is that I handle questions and inquiries with people who have anxious anxiety about the Second Coming and are hearing things from people about what they really need to do to get to prepare. I mean, heavens, a couple of weeks ago, there's a guy who claimed that the actual priesthood meeting that was supposed to take place before the coming of Jesus was taking place, you know, a couple of weeks ago in Adam on Diamond, you know, and there are people who believed it and they really believe. Why am I spending time talking about this? Well, first of all, it's clearly an issue, or it wouldn't come up as often as it does, because it's not just crazy people or irate people from the Pennsylvania mission, you know, wanting to be backed up on what they believe. Sometimes it's otherwise really, really good members of the church. And people are presenting these theories of the end times to them with such, you know, such power and claiming to have such evidence that that's how my friend's friend was, who was listening without my knowledge.

Gerrit He didn't know if he believed it, but his family sure believed it, and it seemed like they had good evidence. And so my friend was like, well, you know what? I know a guy, let's call him and we'll tell him that theory and see what he says. I didn't know that. I didn't know that it was being broadcast. Normally, I'm much more kind. And he said, yeah, I knew you would be if you knew. And I wanted it to be unfiltered. So I just didn't tell you that he was on the one of them. I need you to tell me. I need to know. Some of these end of time scenarios, some of these discussions have the ability to take a form of nationalism that can be troubling. Sometimes people want to argue that the only truly blessed place on Earth is the United States. That the United States is the only land that's the land of freedom.

Gerrit The United States is the only blessed land. It's the only promised land. And, you know, for their evidence, they will say things like, well, I mean, look, do you look at the rest of North and South America? Are you saying that they're the promised land? And this will sometimes merge with or coincide with a belief that the Book of Mormon only took place inside of what is today the United States, because the United States is the blessed land and the United States is the promised land, no other place. There's a couple of reasons that to be careful and hesitant about this thinking. First, historically for the Latter-day Saints, when we were murdered out of Missouri and driven with many more murders out of Illinois, including the murder of Joseph and Hyrum Smith, Latter-day Saints at that point felt like whatever promise the United States had, it had forfeited.

Gerrit And Doctrine and Covenants, section 136, the revelation that Brigham Young receives in winter quarters, states that directly in the Voice of the Lord, that the nation has cast you out. It's not just a theoretic, it's not just a metaphor of the saints being driven out. The Lord declares that the saints have been driven out. And you know, I would love to tell you that the remainder of the 19th century was one of great kumbaya and campfire songs between the United States government and Latter-day Saints living in Utah territory. But you and I both know that it wasn't. There was federal law after federal law passed, trying to hurt Latter-day Saint religion, and not just about polygamy, but that was a big part of it. And to the point where, you know, if you were a member of the church in the 1880s, and there were hundreds of men and women that were in federal prisons for the marriages that they had entered into, for laws that were only selectively applied in front of juries for which Latter-day Saints were not allowed to serve on juries.

Gerrit You think that you are to be tried by a jury of your peers. Well, not so, not in Utah territory. Latter-day Saints are barred from serving on them. Women who have the right to vote, given the right to vote in 1870 in Utah, have their right to vote stripped from them. Because with their vote, they continued to vote for church leaders who were trying to uphold the Lord's commandment that the church practiced plural marriage. So if you were to talk to a member of the church in 1885 or 1886, they would not feel this overflowing feeling of patriotism towards the United States. They would certainly still reverence the Constitution. They would reverence the Declaration of Independence. They would still culturally be American, those who weren't born in Europe anyway. But they would have thought that the United States lost its promise a long time ago because it murdered Joseph and Hyrum and then drove the Saints out.

Gerrit And into the hundreds of people are going to die in winter quarters and in crossing the plains, over a thousand total. Now, I'm not saying that because I mean, hey, I think everybody needs to hate on the United States. Look, I love living in the United States. My dad is an immigrant to the country. He came, he was born in Nazi-occupied Holland. And after the war, immigrated with his family to the United States. And I developed a great patriotism from him because he loved this country. And boy, 4th of July was a favorite holiday for him. But that didn't mean that he was blind to the fact that there were evils and sins in the past of the country. And I feel like it's kind of a balance you have to do, that you need to be able to talk about the great aspects of the country at the same time acknowledge that there were children murdered at Hons Mill, and not one person receiving justice for that.

Gerrit We even know who committed the murders, but not one person receiving justice for that. And I feel like there has to be a little bit of a balance. Well, in regard to this question of, is Missouri really Zion, or where does this come from, that all of North and South America, it's actually a stunning thing to the church. So in 1831, Joseph Smith receives the Revelation, Doctrine and Coven, Section 57, that declares that the new Jerusalem is to be built in Jackson County, Missouri, there in independence, basically, near the courthouse in independence. And the church attempts to build up that city of Zion. For two years, they make preparations. Saints move there. And then in the latter half of 1833 and early 1834, mob violence erupts. And someday we'll do this. I know Richard desperately wants me to do the full details of Zion, as far as the driving out.

Gerrit But it's not safe for children.

Richard It's tough. It's tough. In fact, I mean, the Hyrum Smith affidavit, which is full of some of the most vile languages, as Hyrum is just relaying to...

Gerrit He's just quoting what the mob is saying.

Richard He's quoting what the mob said.

Gerrit And what they did.

Richard And what they did. And it is aggressive. And I will tell you, there is a big difference between, hey, there was some violence and it was bad, versus reading what Hyrum Smith...

Gerrit Right. And there's a reason why, when people are like, well, there were faults on both sides. There's a reason why people say that to me. I become angry, Gerrit, and I rip my shirt. Yeah.

Richard You're the dander meter. You're at like a 37.

Gerrit Yeah. You wouldn't like me very much when I'm angry.

Richard It's on a scale of one to 10, by the way.

Gerrit Yeah. Yeah. Scale from one to 10, it's 40.

Richard Your dander's way up.

Gerrit But the point being that there's just vile things that take place. But the saints are driven from Jackson County and then eventually driven from Missouri completely. They have the spot for the temple outlined in Independence where the cornerstones are. They lay cornerstones for a temple in far west, where they're driven out and they go to Illinois, where eventually in Nauvoo, they're able to actually build their temple. And then only a short few years there, they're going to be, you know, not only are Joseph and Hyrum going to be murdered, all the saints are going to be driven out of the country and into Mexico. As soon as the saints get to Mexico, within a year, Mexico, that part of Mexico becomes part of the United States because of the Mexican War, because of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, which it is.

Richard You brought it back.

Gerrit I had to bring it back. Everyone was wondering. And so for Latter-day Saints, who were culturally, many of them, at least, American, who had grown up as Americans, like Joseph Smith, they were stunned by the, they weren't stunned that the city of New Jerusalem was going to be built inside the United States. That just made sense. The United States is the land of freedom. Most places in North and South America are still controlled by European empires or they're just barely have gained their independence from Spain and they've set up their own dictatorships. And so it makes sense that, yeah, here it is in this land of liberty that we'd have the New Jerusalem set up. But after the saints are driven out of Zion and they continue to try to grow the church and spread the gospel, always they are looking back to when are we going to return to Missouri? It's a question that gets asked Joseph Smith all the time.

Gerrit It's a question that gets asked to Brigham Young all the time. Are we going back to Missouri? Brigham Young will always remind people, you know, Zion's a people and a place. So if you aren't a Zion person, then you aren't ready to go back to Zion. One time asking the brothers and sisters who had collected for church, how many of them drank alcohol this morning, or how many of them had tea with their breakfast, you're not ready to go to Zion. But it's in an 1843 conference that Joseph Smith is going to really just stun the church. So since 1831, they have believed that the United States is the land of Zion, and more particularly, Zion, the city itself, is in Jackson County, Missouri, because Revelation declared that to them. And of course, when they read the Book of Mormon, they read it as something pertaining to where they were and where the new Jerusalem was going to be built up.

Gerrit That was a very natural thing. In this conference address, the first portion of the conference on April 7th, Joseph spent a lot of time talking about baptism and the resurrection, some funny little pithy things he says. Many talk of any baptism not being essential to salvation, but this would lay the foundation of their damnation. Obviously, Protestants don't believe baptism is essential, and so Joseph is saying, well, actually, that's damnation. There's also been remarks made concerning all men being redeemed from hell, but I say that any man who commits the unpardonable sin must dwell in hell worlds without end. So that's a little, okay. The unpardonable sin being denying the Holy Ghost or becoming a son of perdition. And then as I said, conference is adjourned until the next day. So this is now the April 8th day of the 1844 conference.

Gerrit So this is the early conference, the early 1844 conference, and Joseph is going to be murdered in June of 1844. So this is the last church conference that he is going to be speaking at. President Joseph Smith arose and he said, it is impossible to continue the subject that I spoke upon yesterday in consequence of the weakness of my lungs. Now remember, these guys, they have to, you got 20,000 people gathered at the Grove and they've got to shout loud enough for everybody to hear. And that's over the mosquitoes that are in Nauvoo. So that's, I mean, there's no way you're getting over that. It's just, it's the loudness. But so he says, you know, I wanted to pick up more on baptism than, but I'm not going to. Yet I have a proclamation to make to the elders. You know, the Lord has led the church until the present time.

Gerrit And I now have a great proclamation for the elders to teach the church and to teach the church hereafter. And it is in relation to Zion. The whole of North and South America is Zion. The mountain of the Lord's house is in the center of North and South America. When the house is done, the baptism font erected and finished, and the worthy are washed and anointed and endowed and ordained kings and priests, which must be done in this life. When this place is prepared, you must go through all these ordinances of the house of the Lord so that you who have any dead friends must go through all the ordinances for them, the same as for yourselves. Then the elders are to go through all America and build up churches until all Zion is built up. Now, notice when he says all America there, he does not mean the United States of America. He just explained the whole of North and South America is Zion.

Gerrit So after you've received your own endowment, after you receive your own ordinances, the elders are then to go through all of America, North and South America, and build up here and the elders endowed then to go forth and accomplish the work and build up stakes in all of North and South America. So Joseph not only is declaring that all of North and South America is Zion, that it's a responsibility upon those who get endowed in the temple to go take those ordinances and those teachings to the other people in the other parts of North and South America. How awesome is that? That you've got a son serving in South America and that you are just about to lead a temple expedition, let's call it. Makes it sound like you're looking for a lost idol and there's going to be poison darts flying out of it.

Richard I've got a bag of sand and they want to scan a temple recommend and I put the bag of sand and see if I can trick them.

Gerrit And see if you can still get in. And then the temple just collapses on you if not.

Richard Yeah, just the baptismal font starts rolling through. And you have a son in North America teaching the gospel. So the Dirkmaats and the LeDucs, we're doing our part.

Gerrit Well, I love that part where Joseph says, you know, look, you first need to get endowed and receive these ordinances, and then you need to go give them to other people.

Richard Yeah, that's great.

Gerrit And Joseph makes this proclamation. This is not like, you know, Joseph like sitting and talking to Willard Richards while they're whittling a stick. It's not Joseph like, hey, Willard, you know what I was thinking? I was thinking maybe, I think maybe all North and South America was dying. What do you think? Instead, this is something that he says, I don't have enough voice to be able to talk, but I have to tell you this. For whatever reason, the Lord directed Joseph Smith here in this last sermon that he is going to give, not the last sermon, but one of the last sermons at the general conference that he's going to give to the whole church. One of the last things he told them is that all of North and South America is dying. And following him, you know, the next speaker is George Adams and he gets up, and he spoke at length concerning Zion that was to be built up in the last days, and pointed out Joseph from the scriptures and brought much testimony to prove this subject.

Gerrit And at the close of the discourse, President Joseph Smith turned over the conference to the hands of the 12th and adjourned until 2 o'clock. At 2 o'clock, Hyrum Smith is the one who, who spoke and, and Wilford Woodruff doesn't record much of what he said other than, you know, the elders need to try to, try to teach the elders wisdom that they might act in wisdom when they go out to preach. So the cool part is April 9th. Okay, so already this is a Tuesday. I'm not sure, like everybody thinks General Conference is a Saturday and a Sunday. We're four days into this. We are, if you think you're getting away with just a, a couple of conference bingos, you are not. April 9th, 1844, Brigham Young is the person who's chairing the conference. And he gets up to speak. And what he says just demonstrates just how powerful that doctrine is.

Gerrit He says when I heard brother Joseph make his proclamation yesterday about North and South American design, I thought it was a sweepstakes. What a cool way of describing it. Joseph declaring that all of North and South America design is similar to Brigham Young of winning the sweepstakes. That's what it's like to him. I thought it was a sweepstakes. When he said North and South America was Zion, any elder that will be wise, when he gets his endowment, can go into any city and build up the largest church in the city. This proves the prophet true. That the priesthood is fitted for the condition of every man and woman that was on earth. Will the elders go out this season and preach the things we tell them to and then stop? Build up churches in all the world is a perfect knock down to mobs. Mob away and best let us alone and we will evangelize the world and not make much a fuss about it.

Gerrit Mob us and we will do it sooner. We want the elders to go out and election here for President Smith and we want to build the temple this season and by the help of God, we will do it. Pay your tithing if you want a seat in that house. And many other useful remarks was made by Elder Young. It is hard not to love Brigham Young when he is on on a tear like that. But it just shows how much mentality changes and how quickly Brigham Young embraces it. Essentially, everyone thought that the only land of Zion was there in the United States and in Missouri. And for Brigham Young, he hears Joseph Smith say, I have a proclamation from God to you. And instead of Brigham Young going, actually Joseph, I know you said it was a bit, I was checking and the really the only place where there's a government that could be called from God. Brigham Young's response was, that's incredible.

Gerrit And not only is it true, I'm going to reiterate what he taught. It's not something he believed. It's not something he culturally would have believed. It's not something that he knew. But when it was declared from a prophet of God, Brigham Young immediately said, this is the truth. And I think that's why it's so important. When we talk about the promised land that we recognize, it's easy to get parochial and to think the promised land is Spanish Fork, Utah, or possibly late in Utah, but only possibly. Because you guys have two temples within like a mile of each other. We're still back here waiting.

Richard No, it's tough. It's tough for us because while we're in the latent temple district, you can hop on the 177 and get to Syracuse a little faster. We do struggle with that, which temple to go to.

Gerrit What's the time difference in driving to a latent temple and the Syracuse temple?

Richard Well, it really depends on the lights you're going to hit on Gentile. There's no street in all of Utah with a better name than that, by the way. The fact that the temple is just off of Gentile is hilarious to me.

Gerrit I mean, frankly, the temple is bringing in some Gentiles. So I think maybe that's about right.

Richard No, it's exactly, it's actually, I mean, kidding aside, one of the main reasons that we wanted to take our kids on this temple trip to Argentina is because we wanted them to see, because we talk about how important the temple is, and they go, and the youth are incredible in terms of how much they go and do baptism. It's far more than I certainly did as a kid. Now, the temple wasn't nearly as close, but still, and we want them to be able to see, look, this is how people feel when they don't have a temple. We hope that the excitement and the joy of temple worship rubs off on the kids, and they're able to see that.

Gerrit And understanding that God loves all people of all places. Now, highlighting that North and South America are declared to be Zion and the Promised Land, I don't mean to denigrate people living in other places. I don't mean to denigrate people living in other places either. That God loves everyone everywhere. In fact, I was just casually, because that's how I do things, right? Just casually reading a sermon from Brigham Young, and he makes a point that I think is a beautiful point to make about how much God loves everyone. Already, Brigham Young has really endorsed and believes that God is going to save everybody. But yeah, if you are a son of perdition, you're going to dwell in hell. But other than that, God loves you, and there's going to be a place for you.

Gerrit Brigham is responding to one of the earlier sermons. This is an 1866 general conference meeting. And he says, The first discourse that we listened to this morning, I will answer you by saying, I think very well of it. I've invited a great many Christian preachers to come to our stand and give us the best that they have got. And I don't know that I have ever heard from any man's mouth, words of greater comfort than presented here than what we've had this morning. And he goes on to list some of the things that were said. But then he just says, you know, he wants to distill it down, what it is that the people have said. He said, I could discover the necessity of people living, as was declared by the first speaker. And this is how he summarizes it. Do all the good we can and as little harm as possible. And any man or woman that will do this and follow in their lives, I will warrant them a good place hereafter.

Gerrit And I will ensure them to have less sorrow, ensure a great deal more knowledge, wisdom, joy and peace and comfort than they enjoy here. I do not care who they are or what country they live in. No matter whether they are Christians or Mohammedians, that's a way of saying Muslims in the 19th century, Jews or pagans or any of the isolated nations, it is no matter where they live. What a comforting thing he says that anyone who tries to do good and do as little harm as possible, do all the good possible and do as little harm, there is great salvation in contemplating the kindness and goodness and benevolent fatherly care. It is a satisfaction to contemplate the inhabitants of the earth, of their past, present and future existence, those who have lived and those who now live, and those who will come after us to live upon the earth.

Gerrit What the father has done for the redemption of the human family, and the places that he has prepared for his children to dwell in each and every one of their capacity, calling and privileges, and to the knowledge that they gain, and according to their lives here upon the earth. I ask those that were here this morning, who heard that exhortation and the discourse, to live it. So that is a pretty good watchword that to do as much good as possible and as little harm as possible. And I thought I'd just mention that just because I realized that as Latter-day Saints, we know we have the truth because the Lord revealed it through the prophet Joseph Smith. And sometimes I fear that people still believe that someone who lives somewhere where they haven't heard the gospel are somehow just not as good as they are. Or that by some random chance, God blessed one person and not the other.

Gerrit It is a great thing to know that we belong to a religion where God is truly no respecter of persons. No one has an equal chance in this life. Nobody. All of us are going to suffer different horrible unfair things. Some of us will deal with sickness and disease either in ourselves or our loved ones. Some of us will suffer financial reverses and struggle with great difficulty to make ends meet. Others will have family member, friends, spouses, betray them. And leave a gaping hole in their life where there once was happiness. Some people will never know what it's like to be in a marriage for eternity in this life.

Gerrit And some people will never be able to raise their precious child to adulthood. This world is filled with misery and suffering. The great promise of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is that suffering will end. And so I exhort everybody the same way that that Joseph Smith did and then Brigham Young followed it up to realize that when you go and you receive your endowments and you become someone, someone who has made this covenant with God, that you go and you share that Gospel in any way you can to someone else because God desperately loves everyone. And whether they accept it or not, whether they listen to you or not, God has prepared a place for everyone. We don't believe in that Protestant hell where everyone rise in agony forever.

Gerrit We believe that they're suffering for our sins. We also believe that God will reward and save those based upon the knowledge that they have. And that because of work for the dead, everyone's going to have an opportunity, an equal opportunity, not just for salvation but for exaltation. And I love it. I love the fact that Joseph Smith taught this. That Zion goes well beyond the borders of Missouri and well beyond Jackson County. And that our responsibility in sharing the gospel goes well beyond the temple walls. As members of the church, we need to be willing to follow what the prophets teach. Don't be led astray by people who claim they know what God wants us to do and then begin trying to quote to you from obscure talks or visiting general authorities from 20 years ago.

Gerrit President Nelson has made it very clear what it is that you are to do. He wants you to go to the temple. He's well aware, this is a spoiler alert. President Nelson is well aware that we are in the last days and approaching the Second Coming of Jesus. He keeps telling us that we are. So I'm pretty sure he knows. And he doesn't need somebody trying to reinterpret a passage from an apocryphal book of scripture to tell people how they really have to get prepared for the Second Coming. He's already said what he wants you to do. He wants you to read the Book of Mormon. He wants you to pray and receive a testimony through the Spirit of Revelation. He wants you to be kind.

Gerrit He wants you to go to the temple. He wants you to preach the gospel. Now, maybe none of those things are as, you know, scintillating as the idea of stockpiling ammunition and trying to get together with your local militia to be prepared for when the end times come. But that's not what our prophet has told us to do. And like Brigham Young, when Joseph was challenged, I would not give the ashes of rye straw for anything if we did not have a living prophet of God. So if you have concerns, if you look at the world around you and you feel like things aren't going the way I want them to, things are spiraling out of control. How can I raise my children in this environment? What am I going to do for my adult children? If you feel that anxiety and you feel the wickedness of the world closing in, I guarantee that every person listening agrees with you.

Gerrit They all feel that. So, in our desperation, whom do we turn to? Do we turn to some supposed expert on a Twitter posting or a subreddit? Do we listen to what some supposedly smart person has to say about the way they reinterpreted the scripture or do we follow what the prophet of God says? Being prepared for the Second Coming is not a trick. It's not a shell game that God is constantly moving the shells around and you picked the wrong one and oh, you weren't really ready. He's actually made it very easy to be ready. If you follow what the prophet and the leaders of the church are saying, you'll be ready. Now, does that mean we'll all survive the apocalypse when it comes? No, Brigham Young states specifically that there are righteous who are going to die.

Gerrit Joseph Smith says this. But we die in the Lord then. So let's look forward to the Second Coming of our Lord, not with fear and anxiety, but with hope that all of the unfairness of this life will suddenly and in an instant be wiped away. And through the atonement of Jesus Christ, we will not only have our sins washed away, we will have all of our loved ones return to us. All of our pains and suffering will be taken from us, and we will have that true bliss, that true joy that comes with eternal life. So thank you so much for joining us.

Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth Podcast, hosted by historian, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.

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Transcript

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Source shelf

Elder Nickel's email, Pennsylvania Pittsburgh Mission (signed as Elder Newell when Richard finishes reading)

Brannon's email: a son in Salta, Argentina, and a daughter in Omaha

Kimber's email on the hosts' friendship

1850 U.S. census record for Albertine Missoura Bundy (via FamilySearch)

D&C 136

D&C 57

Hyrum Smith's affidavit on the Missouri persecutions

Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo

Joseph Smith, general conference, Nauvoo, April 7, 1844

Joseph Smith, general conference, April 8, 1844 (Wilford Woodruff's report)

Brigham Young, general conference, April 9, 1844

Brigham Young, general conference, 1866

Acts 10:34 (identified, not cited on air)

Episode quiz

What did the stores do when the robbed missionary's mother told them what happened?

Fun with Numbers

From 1831 to 1886

Percentages said on air

Putting numbers to words

What this episode talks about more than usual

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Claim check

Take it to class

Banter bin

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

In General Conference

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