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A date to defend
S4E48 · Additional Witnesses of the Gold Plates Part 1
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Standard of Truth · Season 4 · Episode 48 · 1:03:05

Additional Witnesses of the Gold Plates Part 1

Emma Smith felt the plates through a cloth and moved them around the table but never saw them, and Gerrit explains why her honest 'I never saw them' makes her a stronger witness, not a weaker one.

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The question ·
do you think she saw the plates before the three and the eight witnesses did?
Gerrit

Richard has a date to defend his dissertation and is off to Argentina to help a busload of Saints through the temple for the first time. Missionaries from Pittsburgh write in again, and Cyndi asks whether the film Emma Smith: My Story is okay to watch. Then Gerrit answers a friend's question about Mary Whitmer, who was tired from caring for extra houseguests when an old man met her on the way to milk the cows and showed her the plates. He turns to Emma, whose revelation in Doctrine and Covenants 25 tells her not to murmur about things she hasn't seen, and explains why her honest account of never seeing the plates rings true. He closes with other witnesses like Josiah Stowell and a reminder that people who won't believe the Lord's words wouldn't believe more witnesses either.

Who comes upMary WhitmerDavid WhitmerEmma SmithJoseph SmithOliver CowderyJohn C. WhitmerJosiah StowellMartin HarrisFrederick G. WilliamsOrson PrattJoseph F. Smith
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A date to defend

Richard has a defense date and a story about the prosperity gospel.

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Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise, and humor.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I am joined by my ever-so-close, in fact, we were just talking about how we're going to have to splice in to our pre-recorded introduction. We're gonna have to splice in, in a very thick Bostonian accent when the day comes. My friend, nearly professor, nearly doctor, but certainly already professor, Richard Ledoux.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. Thanks for having me back. We have a date. We have a date for defense. It is there. My committee member has signed off on scheduling that, and so we are we are weeks away.
Gerrit It's one of the few dates that you never want a second date from. Yes, but a dissertation defense date is similar to a blind date. You just don't ever want a second one.
Richard So the funny the funny back and forth has been that we're scheduling for me and members of my family to come out for the graduation and in great Stillwater, Oklahoma. And I'm defending only several days before the graduation. And my wife's like, boy, you're, you're really cutting that close, aren't you?
Gerrit You're just like, look, there's a fine line between confidence and cockiness and I choose not to walk the line. I'm a business PhD. What do you want from me? I'm about to write a book called, if you do what I tell you to, you'll be a billionaire. That's what every every person in business does, right?
Richard That's right. That's right. So yes, so it's in a couple of weeks and we're very excited and-
Gerrit I think you should mix your business book that you write about, if you do what I tell you to, you'll become a billionaire with religion. If you do what I tell you to and are just righteous enough, then you'll be a billionaire.
Richard I'm thinking of prosperity business book. Yeah.
Gerrit First of all, it would sell like hotcakes. I mean, and you just have to invent a few examples of people that you claim are successful, whether they are or not, and it would be gold.
Richard It is funny. So there are a few things that send me into a blind rage more than prosperity gospel. I was talking to a gentleman who used to be a mission president in Cambodia. I was talking with him yesterday about-
Gerrit I like how you just casually have friends that used to be mission presidents.
Richard It's a friend of a friend.
Gerrit You're about to name drop things like, so I was talking to a member of the 70 yesterday, and he said, I feel like that's the direction you're headed. You almost have the PhD in hand, and as soon as you get it, you just start big-timing everybody listening.
Richard So I was talking with him because we were looking at potential, because while this podcast is dropping, I am now currently in Argentina. I'm not recording, but I will be, as this goes out to the throngs and the masses. So as I'm chatting with him, he's talking about people in remote parts of Cambodia and Vietnam that he knows, that go to church once a month, because it is an insane expedition on a boat. In fact, there was a conference talk a couple years ago about some of the sacrifice that people make to get to church. And so he's talking about these faithful saints that only have the ability to go to church once a month, because they're so far away in the jungles of Southeast Asia. And I just got so angry, as he's telling me this faith promoting story.
Gerrit All you could think was if they were more righteous, they'd have closer church.
Richard They'd have more money, and they'd have more private planes. And I'm like, man, these people are just the best people. Anyway, it just makes me so angry.
Gerrit Has it made you think maybe we need to organize a temple trip from Vietnam or Cambodia to the temple? Oh, 100%.
Richard Like that's, oh, like as he's telling me stories, I'm like, oh, we got to make this happen. This is so exciting.
Gerrit I have a very good friend who runs a charity in Vietnam. You're kidding. Yeah.
Richard And how about this before?
Gerrit Well, because you are only talking about how smart you are now that you have your PhD. I feel like in the last few weeks, everything you've been is talking down to me. You're like, well, that's because you're stupid because you don't have a business PhD. That's why I brought it up twice. You just ignore me.
Richard Well, Cambodia is getting, they're supposed to be getting a temple next year. It's supposed to be dedicated, but who knows? These things scheduling wise, we don't know. But anyway, the initial conversation is underway. It's very exciting. Faithful Saints in Cambodia and Vietnam. Anyway, it's all sweetness and light and lovely and virtuous.
Gerrit It is pretty awesome to think that by the time this podcast drops, you will be full time in the temple with people going through the temple.
Richard Straight drowning youth in that. Yeah.
Gerrit Are you going to be doing baptisms?
Richard Oh, yeah. No, it's the most fun part. The most fun part is because they'll have priests that will come, and we want them to do as many as possible, obviously, right? But it's like a week long of these rotations of these youth going through. And so, I'll get a chance, and my son Parker will get a chance, and Andrew will get a chance. He's the one with the terrible mustache that he's growing.
Gerrit He did that for this, to help people feel more comfortable. Because now he looks more like a Spanish conquistador, which goes over well in South America.
Richard But so the problem is my Spanish is so bad, and they have never been to the temple before. They've never done baptisms before. And so I'm trying to explain, you just need to sit down and all whatever. But my Spanish is terrible. And so they're going stiff as a board, and I'm having to shove them to the bottom of the font. And they're just coming up and snot's coming, and they're just like drowning. It's the most fun part.
Gerrit And then they come out like, it was the most spiritual experience of my life, nearly being drowned by now Dr. LeDuc.
Richard I won't be a doctor by then. Yeah, still ABD.
Gerrit Well, it is better to be a doctor if you're drowning people. Right.
Richard This is true.
Gerrit Well, so these temples, they must get overwhelmed when you show up with 120 people and say, hey, let's get some endowments rolled.
Richard Well, so look, there's a lot of pre-work that goes into it. You've got to get, so we speak with the district presidents and the branch presidents and the mission presidents, and we speak with the area authorities, and then we get them to communicate to the area presidency to get their blessing on it, and then we coordinate with the mission or the temple president, and we have to bring our own workers. That's part of the problem is that-
Gerrit How are you going to have workers? Where are you bringing them from?
Richard Well, that's President Roggero's job. That's not my job.
Gerrit So is that the local district president?
Richard That's the district president down in Rio Gallegos, yeah.
Gerrit Wow. So there are trained temple workers, even though they're so far away from the temple, they can't ever do it?
Richard Yeah. So he has friends up in near Buenos Aires, and so he's inviting them to come and help. And then they're also set apart temple, because it's their temple district, even though it's so far away. And so then those people are coming up as well. And so, yeah, you have to coordinate your own workers, too.
Gerrit It's too bad Becky doesn't speak Spanish, because she is a trained temple worker. She's been working at the temple for years.
Richard My understanding is that you have to be set apart for that particular temple. I think there are special, whatever. So I can do baptisms and I can hand out towels. So I can do that. So we'll be mostly with the youth, and then all the adult temple workers will be with the adults doing all of the other stuff.
Gerrit How has the planning on garment purchasing done better? For those of you who haven't listened to us talk about this last time, last time Richard thought it would be an amazing thing to get a hundred people endowed that have never been endowed before. But then only after they were all endowed came to the realization, huh, these people are going to have to wear garments now, and none of them have garments, and none of them have money.
Richard We have coordinated better with the district around that. I imagine that there's going to be a little bit of an element of the Charlie and the Chocolate Factory scene in when everyone's grabbing the candy and stuff near the beginning of the movie. But we've done a much better job planning. Part of the reason is because I've outsourced all of that to people that are far smarter and better, they're now part of the larger charity organization.
Gerrit And we're hoping that there'll be some videography of this?
Richard Yeah, the hope is that we'll have some video to be able to put...
Gerrit Not inside the temple, don't worry. There's already someone writing an email right now.
Richard No, no, no. Of kind of the experience and what it is, and put together a video and put it on the website and have links to it that people can see. Because again, the whole reason that this is even happening is because of the generous donations of members of the...
Gerrit I mean, we have an amazing body of listeners. I mean, we just do. The fact that all of you just said, you know what? I'm gonna take that 16 year old to the temple who's never been to the temple. And you just said, I'm gonna throw $200 down on that. $300, I mean, that is, it's incredible how you demonstrated your testimony with being willing to help other people get to the temple. I'm still in awe.
Richard Yeah, it's pretty awesome. So anyway, I'm excited to share. I'm gonna be super weepy when I come back, I'm sure. And it's gonna be awesome. But Gerrit, we have several emails to get to before we get into discussion on potentially gold plate witnesses.
Gerrit We may. I mean, at this point, we'll just talk about whatever. But yeah, gold plates.
Richard All right. So this email comes to us from a missionary. Hey Richard, is the font of the subject line big enough for you to, this is the subject line by the way, for you to read without straining yourself. If you want, I can try sending the email again with the whole body up here instead. It's very nice.
Gerrit So this cheeky missionary decided to put a giant like 20 point font in the subject line of the email, because he thinks Richard doesn't have the ability to read or see.
Richard Well, both, actually. I've gone blind. Now, I went from readers to full glasses all the time, and I've never shown an ability to read. It starts, hey, we had this contact in our schedule from the last missionaries to say, happy birthday to one Gerrit Dirkmaat. Not sure who that is, but happy birthday, Gerrit, spelled with many U's and GH's and T's.
Gerrit As if I was from Louisiana.
Richard Yes.
Gerrit If I was a Creole from Louisiana as my first name.
Richard I love the idea of a missionary coming in and having in the mission book for their area book, hey, make sure you wish Gerrit a happy birthday. Who's Gerrit?
Gerrit Yeah. Especially spelled like that.
Richard Yeah. Just kidding. It's me, your loyal litner. I recommended your podcast the other day with the warning that they would hate it.
Gerrit That they would hate it?
Richard Well, there's more, but hate it tickled my funny bone there. Unless they could make it past the first six seasons, like a gangrenous blind antelope collapsing in a sad heap, just past the finish line, we only discovered that a business Ph.D. in implied referrals and doesn't improve the content of a faith and history and sports and temple betting. I don't remember temple betting. Podcast One Jot.
Gerrit I don't recall. Maybe it was about where temples would be announced, perhaps.
Richard I don't know. Oh, no, it was the number. It was the number of temples.
Gerrit It was the number of temples. Yeah.
Richard And it wasn't us that did it. It was a listener and they took the under, and it's like, you know, President Nelson, the prophet, right?
Gerrit Yeah, we're like, it's President Nelson. So we like all took the over. We were way on the over.
Richard Yeah.
Gerrit It was like taking candy from a baby. It was like the mob had bet on the other side. It was just, it was.
Richard Yeah. The reps in their pocket. But seriously, thank you for the podcast. I feel more enlightened after almost every episode, and I always feel my faith grow. Your knowledge of church history is impressive and inspiring. Almost, thou persuadest me to get a PhD in history instead of computer science. Well, don't do that.
Gerrit Yeah. Yeah. If there's one thing that this podcast should have taught you is you don't want a PhD in history and you don't want a PhD in business.
Richard You don't want a PhD in anything. What are you doing?
Gerrit Well, I mean, if he had it, at least if he had a PhD, no, you're right. You don't really want a PhD.
Richard Yeah, what?
Gerrit If you're going to become a doctor, you should probably become one that works in an operating room. That's the best way to become a doctor.
Richard Yours truly and standardly, Elder Christiansen from the Pennsylvania Pittsburgh Mission.
Gerrit Wow. I have to start believing that these are AI generated at this point, because we've received more emails from the Pittsburgh Pennsylvania Mission than there are missionaries in the Pittsburgh Pennsylvania Mission. There has to be.
Richard We looked it up and poor president Hoffman, who is the mission president for the Pennsylvania Pittsburgh Mission, must roll his eyes in every zone conference.
Gerrit He must. Every time a missionary gets up there like, I was listening to the standard truth podcast and they said that you should take the over on Boise State. I doubt that they're bearing that as their testimony. I hope that president Hoffman knows that we hope that they're getting good testimony out of this despite us talking right now.
Richard Next one comes to us from Andrew. Hello, my daughter is serving in the Indianapolis, Indiana mission. Not quite as many listeners there, by the way, as we have in the Pennsylvania Pittsburgh Mission.
Gerrit We're going to need your daughter to step it up.
Richard As I have listened to your episodes starting at the beginning, I have thought how valuable it would be for her to listen about the restoration. Her testimony was not so strong in high school, so she did not pay much attention in seminary or Sunday school. I don't know if you're familiar with that.
Gerrit That's called being a teenager.
Richard Yes. Did I already mention in here, Andrew teaching the come follow me on Sunday and the reactions? No. All right. This was great. I swore that I didn't. So Andrew is teaching the come follow me on Sunday to our kids, and I talked to him after, and he was like, I'm really disappointed in Parker and Max. They didn't pay more attention to the lesson, and I'm really concerned that they're not taking this as seriously as they should. I'm like, oh, Andrew.
Gerrit Yep. How soon as they get a little authority as they suppose?
Richard I'm like, I don't know if you recall, about three years ago, you and your brother Rigdon were worse than them. So the fact that they were there at all, I'm chalking up as a huge win, and it's sweet for you to care so much, and they're gonna be just fine. But it was very, it made me laugh, man. I was like, oh, boy, that is sweet. But she graduated a loving Heavenly Father, gave her some pretty severe health challenges that drew her into, I'm pretty sure that the way that my pacing on that was terrible. Yeah. It sounded like, yeah, that couldn't have been read worse. Drew into him and made her have a deep, a dig deep to see what she really believed. Boy, I am. This is.
Gerrit Yeah. I feel like at this point, maybe we should just call them and have them read the email.
Richard Because- I'm bringing AI back. I'm bringing her back.
Gerrit We don't need AI. We just need like that computer voice that is like, and calling to come back at this time. We need it to be like that.
Richard But she is the first to tell you that her gospel knowledge is not as strong as she would like it to be. I have learned so much from your podcast and I think she would too. She can't access any podcast at the moment though. I was really bummed. I could not share the things I'm learning with her in that way. And then you guys started saying that you had a way to share your podcast with missionaries who can't access it in other ways. I'm so grateful. I know it will be a benefit to so many people. And that is true. So we grant access through the Google Drive and mini missionaries and their Samsung phones can access the Google Drive.
Gerrit The same way they would access photos on a Google Drive.
Richard Exactly.
Gerrit Right.
Richard So we give them access to it and then they can think it in. And I learned that lesson when my kids were on missions and I wanted them to listen to the podcast, which they also didn't want to do. And then there we are. So thank you, Andrew. I feel like I read your email perfectly.
Gerrit I don't believe that, but go ahead.
Richard Okay. This last email comes to us from Cyndi. Dear brothers in the gospel, as we are nearing the Christmas season, I had to give a shout out. I thought my family was literally the only one on the planet who watched George C. Scott's version of The Christmas Carol every year. I so detest any other version of The Christmas Carol, including the Muppet version Richard seems to tolerate and the one starring Captain Picard.
Gerrit Captain Picard?
Richard It was Christmas of 1987 or 88, and my family received a bootleg VHS copy smuggled into West Germany, where we were living at the time. Like Richard's copy, it too was taped off TV, but we only got IBM commercials. I remember those IBM commercials that... That's hilarious, because our version was also the 1987 version, and it also had the IBM commercials, and it had like a re... That was great. Oh my gosh. This really takes me back, Cindy. Thank you. Because that's who sponsored the airing. And when you're an American living in Europe, you're starving for American commercials, believe me. So that was a disappointment. Anywho, I've watched it virtually every Christmas since. George C. Scott is the quintessential Ebenezer Scrooge. And my little sister and I were terrified of ignorance and want. Now that is no joke. My sister and I were also terrified of ignorance and want as the ghost of Christmas present opened his robe and they were just sunken faces and terrifying.
Gerrit Ignorance and want.
Richard Want.
Gerrit Fear them.
Richard She would bury her face in the cushions as that scene would come across her TV. Thanks for making me feel like I'm not alone in my love for George C. Scott version of The Christmas Carol. I can't get my husband to make this a tradition because he says it's too dark. And this is coming from a man who plays Fallout and has no problem watching depressing dystopian films. My wife had a similar reaction, Cindy, and we watched it with our infant or toddler children, and they were terrified. So we had to go to the Mickey's Christmas Carol until they became teenagers. And then we transitioned over. I believe this may have been one of the complaints from your spouses as well. I should have kept reading. I've made my younger son watch it with me, but he did it merely out of the goodness of his heart. So I sit alone either Christmas Eve or Christmas Day and watch it for free on Tubi all by myself. Speaking of Tubi, they have a movie on there called Emma Smith, My Story.
Richard Is that okay to watch? I wasn't sure if it was something negative or historically inaccurate. Gerrit, is your thoughts on the...
Gerrit Look, it's... You can't ever ask me whether or not something's historically accurate.
Richard Because, well, you can. The answer is just no.
Gerrit Well, right, because it's a film. Now, look, it's certainly not antagonistic, and it is definitely pro-Church and pro-Emma. And it is, you know, it is certainly not negative. But at the same time, it is, there are multiple things that I would, as a historian, you'd be like, that's not actually how it happened. I mean, the biggest problem with anything that's a biography show is that in order to have a movie, you have to have dialogue. Well, because you don't have like a video clip, you know, I mean, it's not hard to figure out John F. Kennedy saying, you know, ask not what your country can do for you, but what you could do for your country, because you have that on, you've heard it, you know. And the biggest issue is trying to create the dialogue that has to exist.
Gerrit And so in order to do that, you have to take creative license. Well, how do you think she reacted when X happened? Well, we don't know, because she didn't write about how she reacted. No one else wrote about it either. So you have to kind of invent a narrative and sort of the story to go forward. So like all movies, you should never take things that are in them as the gospel's truth. You should take them always with a grain of salt. Like, oh, that's interesting. I wonder if that's how it actually was portrayed. And then, you know, with specific questions, you could go further. But I think you're fine. You're not going to lose your testimony watching it. It's well done.
Richard That's the highest praise you've ever given to any slightly historical movie ever.
Gerrit I don't even say that you won't lose your testimony listening to this podcast. So I mean, that is...
Richard That's high praise indeed. So there you go. Watch that on the 23rd on Joseph Smith's birthday. Hitting to be pretty hard for the holidays. Love your podcast, love your testimonies. Both of you have brought me to tears. There is no doubt. I'm sure that I brought her to tears on how poorly I read her email, my guessing. There is no doubt of your love of Jesus Christ. And I've gained such an appreciation for church history and the early saints who sacrificed so much, as well as Joseph Smith's kind heart and his devotion to Heavenly Father and the Savior. I'm a firm believer in not throwing the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to our faith. I also subscribe to We Weren't There, We Don't Know, the wonderful fruits of the gospel of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are so evident. Why would I give that up over things we're not going to know the answers to in this life? That is a great approach, by the way. It is. Shout out, Gerrit, I too hate camping.
Gerrit Oh, I now love this email.
Richard Take care and thank you for all that you do. Anyways, thank you so much, Cindy. That's a very kind email and is a perfect transition into a discussion of additional witnesses of the Book of Mormon.
Gerrit Well, so I actually had a friend this week text me, and their purpose in their text was, they were asking about the story of Mary Whitmer. Mary Whitmer is a story that is often brought up because we know about the Three Witnesses, we know about the Eight Witnesses. It's very easy to know about them given the fact that, well, their statements are there in the Book of Mormon itself. And this friend had just, you know, they were reading in the Book of Saints, where it referenced Mary Whitmer's experience. And for him, it was one of the first times, I mean, he'd certainly like heard about it in a, you know, kind of like an abstract someone mentioning it sort of way, but he felt like at least that he hadn't felt it emphasized or studied before. And if you're wondering what this account is, it's an account that's told many years later by David Whitmer, who tells Joseph F.
Gerrit Smith and Orson Pratt in an interview he has with them about this experience that his mother had while Joseph Smith was translating the Book of Mormon there in Fayette. So for those of you who don't just offhandedly remember exactly what the early timeline of church history is, and I mean, frankly, you know, that's one, maybe two people. By June of 1829, things had gotten so bad in harmony that there were threats of mobocratic violence. And so Joseph had written to David Whitmer, well, he had all of a right to David Whitmer, who was Oliver's friend up in Fayette, and asked David Whitmer if, A, can we move to your house, to your parents' house, and live there to translate the rest of the Book of Mormon? And also, can you bring your wagon down to get us to move us up there?
Gerrit So that's the quintessential bad friend right there, right? This is the person who says, hey, Bill, is there any way you could, you know, use my car to drive me to the airport? I'll, you know, I'll take care of the gas. And when you say, okay, I guess we can do that. Then they say, actually, I'm going to need your car. So that's, that's what David Whitmer doesn't know Joseph yet. He knows of Joseph because Oliver's been writing him letters. And then David Whitmer gets this letter from Joseph and Oliver saying, hey, the Lord wants you to talk to your family about us moving in. The reason why we're leaving is because everyone hates us, but I'm sure it'll be fine if we go there. And by the way, we need you to take off your time in the planting season to bring your wagon down to get us to move us up. And this is when, you know, the miraculous event happened that the field was all plowed.
Gerrit And as a result, David Whitmer goes down and gets them and brings them up. They had just received the Aaronic Priesthood and baptized one another on May 15th of 1829. And so only a couple of weeks later, the persecution or the threats of persecution had gotten to the point where Joseph is going to leave. Well, the Whitmer family was really kind of struggling to work through this very busy time of the season. I mean, if you're a farmer in upstate New York in June of 1829, it's literally the busiest month you could have outside of when you're harvesting. And so, to just take a bunch of time off to move someone up there, and, you know, the first elders quorum ever, it's like David Whitmer was the first elders quorum president before there was an elders quorum.
Gerrit What, I got to move this guy? He doesn't even live in my boundaries? Yeah, you got to go move this guy. It doesn't live in your boundaries. But then on top of that, Mary Whitmer, whose role it was to find a place for everyone to sleep and to cook meals for everyone and to clean up after everyone. I mean, I'm not saying that Joseph was like finishing his chicken dinner and throwing the tin upside down on the ground saying, get it, Mary. I mean, the point is, every mouth, every adult mouth in the house is so many more women hours of work that she then has to put in to provide food and other necessities around the house. And it just so happened to be that they showed up at the height of the working time when the other men have to be out working in the fields or they're not going to get their crop in.
Gerrit So all the way around, if you're Mary Whitmer, things are moving at a pretty quick pace for you here. A few months ago, I didn't know who Joseph Smith was. Now he's living in my house and translating this gold Bible, and everyone hates him and says that he's a charlatan. And by the way, my laundry load just doubled. I mean, there's something there that is bringing a frustration. So this is what David Whitmer told Orson Pratt and Joseph F. Smith in 1878. So again, David Whitmer is now looking back on an experience his mother had essentially 50 years earlier. Okay, so it's half a century later. We don't have an account of this earlier. That doesn't mean it didn't happen. I'm just saying that's one of the questions my friend has is, well, why weren't there more stories about this happening in the church?
Gerrit Well, first of all, because no one knew that it had happened until 1878. So, the church was well into the later Utah period before we even have the first account of it. But this is what David Whitmer said, when I was returning to Fayette with Joseph and Oliver, because he got them in the wagon, all of us riding in the wagon, Oliver and I in an old fashioned wooden spring seat and Joseph behind us, while traveling along in a clear open place, a very pleasant, nice looking old man suddenly appeared by the side of our wagon and saluted us with good morning, it is very warm. At the same time wiping his face or forehead with his hand, we returned the salutation and by a sign from Joseph, I invited him to ride if he was going our way. But he said very pleasantly, no, I am going to Cumorah. This name was somewhat new to me, I did not know what Cumorah meant. Now this is 1829, it's June of 1829, David Whitmer hasn't read word one of any part of the Book of Mormon translation.
Gerrit But this person standing by the wagon is saying, nope, I'm going to Cumorah. We all gazed at him, my guess is Joseph gazed a little harder, right? We all gazed at him and at each other. And as I looked around inquiringly of Joseph, the old man instantly disappeared so that I did not see him again. So they have this experience there. It was the messenger who had the plates, who had taken them from Joseph just prior to our starting from harmony. Now, I know that that's not Mary Whitmer's story, but the reason why we tell that story is it's part of the Mary Whitmer story. David Whitmer continues. Soon after our arrival home, I saw something which led me to the belief that the plates were placed or concealed in my father's barn. I frankly asked Joseph if my supposition was right, and he told me that it was.
Gerrit Sometime after this, my mother was going to milk the cows. Okay, so she's on her way to go do a pretty arduous labor. When she was met out near the yard by the same old man, judging by her description of him, so they have this old guy appear to them while they're heading to Fayette from Harmony, and they say, hey, do you want to ride in the wagon? And he's like, nope, on my way to Cumorah. And when they look over at Joseph, like, what does he mean? They look back and the dude's gone, right? Well, apparently the same guy, at least according to the description, appeared to Mary, that's David Whitmer's mother, and said, you have been very faithful and diligent in your labors, but you are tired because of the increase of your toil. Right? So things have gotten a lot, a lot more work to do now that these other people have shown up at her house. I mean, it's, you know, Ben Franklin who said that fish and house guests stink after three days, right?
Gerrit I think that's attributed to him. And no matter how much you like a friend, you know, you travel with them or you stay in the same room with them for three days. By the fourth day, you're like, okay, we get it. We get it. And you're, you know, which I can only assume is Richard during every single podcast. You get to see the grimacing he's doing on the other side. I can, I can see his, his, his, his disgust and dare I say anger as he looks across, he rages across the, the sands of time. But here they, they, they've shown up. It was something unexpected and it really has increased her workload significantly. And clearly that's something that's on her mind is she's out to milk the cows. Notice who isn't milking the cows. It's not Oliver and Joseph, right? So you are tired because of the increase of your toil.
Gerrit It is proper therefore that you should receive a witness that your faith may be strengthened. Thereupon, the man showed her the plates. My father and mother had a large family of their own. In addition to it therefore of Joseph and his wife Emma and Oliver very greatly increased the toil and anxiety of my mother. And although she had never complained, she had sometimes felt that her labor was too much, or at least she perhaps was beginning to feel so. But this circumstance, however, completely removed all such feelings and nerve her up for her increased responsibilities. So, that's one of the accounts of this experience. But there's another account. That one comes from John Whitmer. So you may not have heard the John Whitmer account, John C.
Gerrit Whitmer. So this is not John Whitmer who's the son of Mary Whitmer. It's John C. Whitmer, who's the grandson, who's now relating, again, many years later, what he said his grandmother told him. Okay, so one, you have David Whitmer saying, this is what happened with my mother. And now you have a grandson saying, this is what happened with my grandmother. He said, I've heard my grandmother, Mary Musselman Whitmer, say on several occasions that she was shown the plates of the Book of Mormon by a holy angel. It was at the time that she said, when the translation was going on at the house of the elder Peter Whitmer, her husband, Joseph Smith with his wife and Oliver Cowdery, whom David Whitmer a short time previous had brought up from Harmony, Pennsylvania, were all boarding with the Whitmers. And my grandmother and having so many extra persons to care for besides her own large household was often overloaded with work to such an extent that she felt it quite a burden.
Gerrit So at this point, some of those phrasologies are pretty similar. And you might start to feel like, well, maybe he's actually read his, read David Whitmer's account of this. At any rate, it was at this time, she said that one evening, when after having done her usual days work in the house, she went to the barn to milk the cows. She met a stranger carrying something on his back that looked like a knapsack. At first, she was a little afraid of him. But when he spoke to her in a kind, friendly tone, and began to explain to her the nature of the work that was going on in her house, she was filled with unexpressible joy and satisfaction. He then untied his knapsack and showed her a bundle of plates, which in size and appearance correspond with the description subsequently given by the witnesses to the Book of Mormon.
Gerrit This strange person turned the leaves of the Book of the Plates over leaf after leaf and also showed her the engravings upon them. After which he told her to be patient and faithful in bearing her burden a little longer, promising that if she would do so, she would be blessed and her reward would be sure if she proved faithful to the end. The person is then suddenly vanished with the plates and where he went, she could not tell. From that moment, my grandmother wasn't able to perform her household duties with comparative ease, and she felt no more inclination to murmur because her lot was hard. I knew my grandmother to be a good, noble, and truthful woman, and I have not the least doubt of her statement in regard to seeing the plates being strictly true. She was a strong believer in the Book of Mormon until the day of her death. So there's another account which provides a little bit more detail.
Gerrit And it's one of the reasons why we talk about Mary Whitmer being one of the witnesses of the plates. Now, one of the things my friend had asked is, do you think she saw the plates before the three and the Eight Witnesses did? Unfortunately, when you're dealing with half century or 70 years later reminiscences or second-hand accounts or third-hand accounts, one of the things you really lose is this element of time. You know, it's a short time after they arrive. Well, what does that mean? After you know, in the one account, it says, you know, that it's clearly after some time is what it says. Some time after this, well, I don't know what sometime means. The three and the Eight Witnesses are going to have their experience in July. And so it is possible that she saw the plates before the three and Eight Witnesses did depending on when her experience actually happened.
Gerrit What do you think about that experience, Richard?
Richard Pretty, it's pretty incredible. I've often thought about this though. I've talked about this with you when, when we were, I think when we were at the Whitmer Farm and the idea that, that Mary would have this experience, but that Emma wouldn't have the experience. It was, it was an interesting, it was an interesting thing. Some of the people that end up being witnesses to the gold plates. Now, Emma is obviously a witness to many miraculous things that occur as she's, you know, writing down some of the things that Joseph is even saying as she acts as scribe. But I've often thought that to be interesting.
Gerrit Yeah. And, and obviously a trial for Emma. I mean, because one of the things that we would say is, well, of course the three and the Eight Witnesses were all men because this is the 19th century and it's just so gender biased that, you know, the men's legal word carries much more weight in a court of law than a woman's does and certainly there's elements to that. But if you're Emma and, and Mary Whitmer sees the plates and the angel and you don't, you got to be thinking like, okay, I mean, I realized that you've, you've had to put out a couple more bowls of Frosted Flakes, but I mean, I'm like, like having to leave my family over this because I'm supporting him. I was with Joseph in the wagon when he went to go get the plates. I've gone through all of this with him. I literally was a scribe for, for nearly, you know, the most part of the lost hundred, you know, and 16 pages. So why don't I have this experience?
Gerrit Now we don't ever have Emma saying, I was really upset that I didn't have this experience.
Richard Sure, sure.
Gerrit But you do have Doctrine and Covenants Section 25, which is an 1830 revelation directed to Emma. And it's after the church is founded. So it's not like it's a, it's not something from 1829. And we usually read Doctrine and Covenants Section 25, primarily to say that the Song of the Righteous is a prayer to God, right? It's primarily used by music leaders to try to strong arm us into being in the ward choir, I think. Is that normally why we have it?
Richard From my experience, yes.
Gerrit Yeah. I mean, as a choir leader in a ward though, I mean, it really is great that you've got like a revelation on your side, like, oh, interesting. So you wouldn't want the Song of the Righteous to be a prayer to God.
Richard That's a tough job, man. That is a tough, tough gig to be the choir leader in a ward, I have to say. Part of the problem though is, they don't want me in the choir. I am confident of that.
Gerrit Well, they say they want everyone.
Richard But I'm the seagull from Little Mermaid. Yeah. In fact, when I was in Gerrit's ward, when we were in the same student ward, at Utah State, I joined the choir of the Young Married Ward, and I had somebody that was next to me, hearing me sing, inviting me to no longer attend.
Gerrit It really is something that should have sent you on a downward spiral to where you no longer had a testimony.
Richard Well, but the thing is though, I knew he spoke the truth, and I accepted, I accepted it. I'm a terrible singer, terrible.
Gerrit It is funny, you know, they'll say things like, no, everyone's welcome, and then you're sitting there thinking, no, everyone's not welcome. Like, if I stand there, just to make it look like you have more numbers, but that's not...
Richard Yeah, it's funny.
Gerrit Well, it is a tough job, although our friend, Lisa, like, she is in a ward with a whole bunch of, you know, she lives up in Provo. And so in her ward, she ends up having all of these, like, BYU professors of, like, music and... You know what I mean? So they'll be, like, musical numbers, and it sounds like it's, you know, you're in, you're on Broadway.
Richard The best, the best sacrament Christmas program I've ever been to in my life. We were in New York City and we went to church in New York and we had all these, like, Juilliard students. It was incredible. Best sacrament Christmas program in the history of Christmas programs.
Gerrit Yeah. Whenever you, whenever you hear someone who has just such a beautiful voice or is, is just, you know, playing the violin in a way that, like, you can't even comprehend how beautiful it is. Right. And I love music and I love the arts. I, you know, and so whenever, like there's always a little bit that creeps in when I'm listening to that. I'm like, I feel like God didn't even try on me. I feel like, like, I feel like he was like, and I have created the perfect person here and I'm going to take whatever blobs I have left and just slap it together. That is Gerrit. You feel like other people are just incredibly talented. Obviously, they've worked forever to create those talents. But I'm pretty sure that if I did put the 10,000 hours in, I would probably still have the guy saying, yeah, we don't really need you in the choir. We're full, we're full. There's no other men in the choir. Yeah, that's very interesting how we're full.
Gerrit So, back to Dr. Gerrit, section 25. The part that I want to focus on is this early part. And while we don't have what Emma was saying, we don't have an account of that. We don't have an early journal from Emma. Harken unto the voice of the Lord your God while I speak unto you, Emma Smith, my daughter. For verily I say unto you, all those who receive my gospel are sons and daughters of my kingdom. A revelation I give unto you concerning my will, and if thou art faithful and walk in the past of virtue before me, I will preserve thy life and thou shalt receive an inheritance in Zion. Behold, thy sins are forgiven thee. So she gets this wonderful statement that Joseph had gotten when the Lord spoke to him first. Thy sins are forgiven thee, and thou art an elect lady whom I have called. But verse 4 is where I want to focus. Murmur not because of the things which thou has not seen, for they are withheld from thee and from the world, which is wisdom in me in a time to come.
Gerrit I can only imagine that after the three and the Eight Witnesses, and apparently even Mary having this angelic experience, so not only are they seeing the plates of the Three Witnesses, they're seeing the angel. The other two substantial scribes for Joseph. I mean, you know, Ruben Hale writes for a little bit, and there are some other people, but Martin Harris, Oliver Cowdery and Emma Smith are the substantial scribes for the Book of Mormon translation. And Martin Harris, the fickle, page-losing Martin Harris and Oliver Cowdery, both get to see the angel and get to see the plates. And Emma doesn't. Now, that doesn't mean Emma doesn't have a physical witness of the plates. She talks about feeling the plates through the cloth, feeling the edges of the plates through the cloth.
Gerrit You know, the plates were on the table there right out, you know, but she never saw them. And it's very interesting that what you assume is that the Lord is responding to something that possibly is in her mind. And maybe she's actually said it. Think of just how hard that would be. All of these people that are seeing the plates including Mary Whitmer. But you don't get to see them. I was with Joseph from the beginning. I was with Joseph when Martin Harris was off throwing pages to the wind. That's unfair to Martin Harris, but still. Martin Harris broke his covenant, I didn't break mine. I was with Joseph from the beginning. And at this point, where we're at in July of 1830, Joseph's already had a huge problem with Oliver Cowdery.
Gerrit Because Oliver Cowdery has challenged Joseph on Section 20, claiming that Joseph Smith was introducing false doctrine by that revelation. So I could easily see how if you were Emma and you see the, I don't know, what's the best way to say it? The instability of people like Martin Harris and Oliver Cowdery. These guys who, yeah, they've done a lot, but they also have turned on you at various times. Why do they get to see angels and I don't? Why do they get to see the plates and I don't? We occasionally get emails from listeners who say things like, I just really wish I could have an angelic experience. You know, I've really prayed to see a departed loved one, or if I were to witness a miracle, I've always wanted to be a part of a miracle.
Gerrit Why do you think there aren't as many miracles anymore? You're asking the same question that Emma Smith was asking July of 1830. And the Lord's response is to not murmur because of what you haven't seen. And that provides this tidbit of wisdom, right? That you haven't seen them because they are withheld from the and from the world, which is wisdom in me in a time to come. So at some point, you'll see the wisdom in the fact that you aren't allowed to see the place. Now, Emma, throughout the rest of her life, will, you know, she will give occasional interviews, especially when it's her son asking the questions. She'll write letters to other people. We have a letter that she wrote surrounding the translation of the Book of Mormon to one of her friends, and we have the interview that she gives to her son where she talks about the translation of the Book of Mormon.
Gerrit And what's fascinating is even though the entire point of what she writes and what she says and what she does is to prove that Joseph Smith was really a prophet. If this is all just made up, if Emma well knows that Joseph wasn't really a prophet, but she's just trying to trick people into thinking that he was, why doesn't she just tell people that she saw the plates? I mean, it's the 1860s and 70s by this point. There are multiple descriptions of the plates. She knows what people say they look like. Why couldn't she just say, you know what, I saw them. Oh, you really think your husband had plates? Yeah, I saw them. That would be a much easier way to settle an argument. Instead, what does Emma say? You know, I lifted them.
Gerrit I felt them through a cloth. They sat there on the table. I know that they physically existed, but I never saw them. And while you're wondering, well, why would that matter? Because what it goes to for historians is a demonstration of the truthfulness of what Emma is saying. There is no reason for her to not say that she saw the plates. There just isn't. It would be a far more persuasive thing. If the point is that you're trying to make, my husband really was a prophet. You should stop attacking him. He really saw God. Well, the easiest way to make that point is to just say, I saw the plates too. And she doesn't make that point because she's being honest. So when she says plates are covered up on the table, I felt them. She's telling the truth.
Gerrit And her witness of feeling and moving and lifting the plates without seeing them actually carries more weight today. Than it would if she simply said, oh yeah, I also saw them. Because it demonstrates she's not overstating in order to try to make her point. It demonstrates that even years later, even with no one to call her on it, she's being honest about that experience. Does that make sense? Why that would matter or come into play?
Richard Yeah, no, it is kind of interesting. It would be the easiest thing in the world for her to just, yeah, some.
Gerrit So why doesn't she do that? I'm guessing because she is being honest, not guessing, but I mean, as a historian, that's what they would say. Well, it doesn't make sense for her otherwise. So before we end, I want to talk about one other person who saw the plates that we generally don't talk about. And this is Josiah Stoal. Josiah Stoal is familiar to many Latter-day Saints because he is the person who had got it in his mind that there was an old Spanish silver mine somewhere in Pennsylvania, in Northern Pennsylvania, well known as the Spanish silver mine hotbed where the Spanish never were. And so therefore clearly had a mine that they had been working. Josiah Stoal is someone who believes Joseph Smith's claims. And he will later actually say that he was quote the first person that took the plates out of Joseph's hands the morning he brought them in.
Gerrit You know, Joseph was handing them through the window and Josiah Stoal is saying that he's the one who took them from him. He's actually, his testimony is part of a, of a trial where people are trying to, you know, convict Joseph of fraud. And Josiah Stoal says that not only did he lift the plates, he says that as the plates are passing through them, through the window, the covering that, you know, the cloth that's over them kind of gets knocked off. And so there he is staring at a portion of the plates. So it's not just that he lists them, he actually sees part of them because the cloth isn't on them. And Stoal is telling the court that they are, their plates that were leaves of gold with characters written on each sheet. So here's another person who had a witness of the plates who isn't one of the three or Eight Witnesses.
Gerrit His is a first-hand account except the source whereby people are saying that he said what he said is many years later. Like I don't have the original court transcript, but it is at least reputed to be him saying that he saw the plates. On our next episode, I want to talk about someone else who had a powerful spiritual experience that involving the plates and the angel that we generally don't talk about, but for whom we have several references to this powerful experience having taken place. But if you want to find out who that is, you're going to have to tune in next week. And, you know, how's that for, you know?
Richard What a tease.
Gerrit Yeah, I mean, you know what? It actually could be you. I mean, for all we know, I'm about to say, and then Richard saw the plates. Maybe that's part of what his dissertation defense actually is. You go in, you don't even defend. They just show you gold plates and you come back out. That's what it really is. But I think it's important to, you know, we'll talk about this again next week, but it's important to realize the power of these spiritual experiences. It is easy to ask the question, well, why didn't more people see the plates? If there had been five more people that had seen the plates, would that make anti-Mormons suddenly think the plates existed or that they were from God? Frankly, if dozens more people had seen them, would that make people believe that they were from God? In many ways, it goes back to what we've quoted oftentimes here on this podcast, but it bears repeating from Doctrine and Covenants Section 5.
Gerrit When Martin Harris also threatened with a fraud charge over his support of the Book of Mormon, when he comes down to see the plates in March of 1829, the Lord tells him very quickly, very clearly. Verse 7 of Doctrine and Covenants Section 5, Behold, if they will not believe my words, they would not believe you, my servant Joseph, if it were possible that you should show them all these things which I have committed to you. The people who refuse to accept the testimony of the witnesses are not just one more witness away from saying, you know what, actually he did have plates. Because the reason why they don't believe the witnesses isn't because there isn't already 11 witnesses. It isn't like, oh my goodness, if there were 13, now I'm ready to be baptized. Or in most of their cases, rebaptized, right?
Gerrit The people who are rejecting these witnesses are not doing it because there's just not enough of them. Because these are the same people who are more than willing to believe the most outlandish statements about Joseph Smith with barely a single 50 years removed fourth hand witness to whatever the person's claiming. Boy, that is testimony you can take to the bank as far as they're concerned. So it's not about the number of the witnesses. It's about the fact that if they won't believe the words of Christ, then they're not going to believe them even if they have visions and even if they have miracles. The great example, we have examples of shared collective witness events where more people are involved. Take for example, the experience of Jesus and the father appearing to the men in the school of the prophets.
Gerrit We have a contemporary source of that. We have Frederick G. Williams taking minutes of that meeting saying that many of the brethren present had a vision of saviors. Does that convince those people that this church is God's church? Do they suddenly say, oh, I guess I was wrong about everything I said about how tithing funds are spent and this really is the church of Jesus? I mean, they don't. And so while the witnesses are powerful, they're especially powerful to me, I think it's a mistake to believe, and we've said this before, that if only I had a certain witness, then I would believe and I would never fall away. We just talked about people like Oliver and David and Martin. They had powerful witnesses. They saw angels, they saw plates, and they apostatized. And in our next episode, we're going to talk about someone else who had a powerful experience, saw the angels, saw the plates, and what becomes of them.
Gerrit So thank you so much for joining us.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.

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It's one of the few dates that you never want a second date from.

GerritBanter

If you do what I tell you to and are just righteous enough, then you'll be a billionaire.

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And so they're going stiff as a board, and I'm having to shove them to the bottom of the font.

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If there's one thing that this podcast should have taught you is you don't want a PhD in history and you don't want a PhD in business.

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So that's the quintessential bad friend right there, right?

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But I'm the seagull from Little Mermaid.

RichardBanter

There is no reason for her to not say that she saw the plates. There just isn't.

GerritInsight

Because it demonstrates she's not overstating in order to try to make her point.

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So it's not about the number of the witnesses.

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They saw angels, they saw plates, and they apostatized.

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More from this episode

Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.

Claim check

What critics say, and what the episode found
If more people had seen the gold plates, critics would have believed.
Emma's admission that she never saw the plates weakens the case for them.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.

Take it to class

Ready to copy into a lesson or a text

Mary Whitmer, worn out from caring for Joseph, Emma and Oliver in her home, was shown the plates by a messenger who told her she was faithful and promised her reward.

Emma Smith felt and moved the plates through a cloth but never saw them, and her honesty about that makes her testimony more trustworthy, not less.

The Lord told Emma not to murmur over what she hadn't seen; it was withheld in his wisdom, a comfort for anyone still waiting for a miracle.

More witnesses don't create faith; D&C 5 teaches that those who won't believe the Lord's words wouldn't believe more evidence either.

Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.

Banter bin

The running jokes, for people who skip ahead
Richard's PhD, any day nowA defense date at last, days before graduation in Stillwater, with a Bostonian-accent intro to splice in (0:38, 1:14, 1:42).
Prosperity gospel business book'If you do what I tell you to and are just righteous enough, you'll be a billionaire,' and Richard's blind rage at prosperity preaching (2:26, 2:52, 4:29).
Drowning youth in the fontRichard's Spanish is so bad the youth go stiff as a board at the Buenos Aires temple (5:49, 6:22).
Richard can't readA 20-point subject line from Pittsburgh, and Richard brings AI back after flubbing Andrew's email (10:55, 17:21).
The only true missionMore emails from the Pennsylvania Pittsburgh Mission than there are missionaries; poor President Hoffman (14:23, 14:39).
George C. Scott's Christmas CarolTaped off TV with IBM commercials; 'ignorance and want' terrified everyone (19:11).
Gerrit hates campingCyndi hates camping too, so now Gerrit loves her email (24:42).
Not the choir typeRichard was asked to stop attending ward choir at Utah State; he's the seagull from The Little Mermaid (44:03).
Witnesses of the Book of Mormon seriesPast the three and the eight, Richard opens a run on 'additional witnesses of the Book of Mormon,' starting with Mary Whitmer, Emma and Josiah Stowell (24:46, 24:57).
CliffhangersAnother witness of the plates and the angel is saved for next week; maybe it's Richard at his defense (57:27, 58:14).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

Your question could be next week’s episode
Questions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
General ConferenceGeneral Conference talks that cite a scripture read in this episode.

In General Conference

Talks from the latest General Conference that cite a scripture this episode reads or names on air
October 2026 General Conference · cites D&C 20Divine AppointmentsPresident Timothy L. FarnesPresident Farnes recalls a discouraging day as a young priesthood leader when then-Elder Dallin H.October 2026 General Conference · cites D&C 20Spiritual ImmunityElder Christian C. ChigbunduElder Chigbundu, recalling the talk of "immunity" during the COVID-19 pandemic, describes building spiritual immunity through four small and simple things: scripture study, prayer, the sacrament, and keeping covenants, including temple worship.October 2026 General Conference · cites D&C 20Courage Born of Our Faith in Jesus ChristElder Neil L. AndersenElder Andersen welcomes President Rosemary Chibota, who joined the Church at 17 after reading a pamphlet about Joseph Smith, and teaches that spiritual courage, born of faith in Jesus Christ, has always been required of disciples, from Moroni to today.

Summaries, themes and lessons for every talk are on What Did They Say?

Go deeperWhere to read more.

Go deeper

Deep dives the episode points toward
Mary Whitmer's experience in the Church history Saints, volume 1, and the two later accounts behind it (24:57).
Emma Smith's late-life interview with her son and her letter about the translation of the Book of Mormon (51:21).
Josiah Stowell's role in the story of the plates and the court records about it (55:10).
The vision of the Savior in the School of the Prophets recorded by Frederick G. Williams (1:01:25).
SOT Litner · S4E48.