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S4E5 · Witnesses of the Book of Mormon Part 2
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Standard of Truth · Season 4 · Episode 5 · 1:08:29

Witnesses of the Book of Mormon Part 2

In March 1829 Lucy Harris tried to have Joseph Smith jailed for fraud over gold plates she had just spent two weeks trying to dig up.

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The question ·

At what point does Joseph know that there's going to be witnesses of the plates?

Gerrit

After emails about the live event and Elder Proctor, a reluctant listener now headed on a mission, Gerrit returns to the witnesses. He shows that Book of Mormon prophecies of witnesses in 2 Nephi and Ether were translated after Joseph's 1829 troubles. He then reads Martin Harris's account of spring 1829, when people, apparently stirred by Lucy Harris, threatened to jail Joseph for fraud and Martin as his accessory. D&C 5 answers Martin's demand to see the plates: three witnesses will come, but even seeing the plates would not convince an unbelieving generation. Gerrit ends with the case thrown out and Martin promised a witness if he humbles himself.

Who comes upJoseph SmithMartin HarrisLucy HarrisOliver CowderyMoroniNephiMormonLaman and LemuelGordon B. Hinckley
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A listener can't find anyone to drag to the live show and suggests a fireside near Bear Lake.

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Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my erstwhile friend, Professor Richard LeDuc.
Richard Well, hello, Gerrit. It's nice to be with you today as we get back into the Witnesses of the Book of Mormon. We started with the Witnesses of the Book of Mormon by talking about Lucy Harris for an hour, which we felt was...
Gerrit Well, we're taking a wide view.
Richard Oh, you don't say.
Gerrit About... Well, we're talking about how people wanted to see the place, because we're not just talking about the Witnesses themselves. We're talking about the demand to see the place as a Witness.
Richard I see. It's a much broader topic. Anyone that wanted to see it.
Gerrit We've never really defined what we meant by Witness. And in our podcast, we define Witness as someone who wanted to see it and then tried to destroy Joseph Smith's life when they didn't. Or as my brother said, having listened to the first episode, someone who was willing to trade their daughter's marriage to a low life person so that they could get copies of the characters.
Richard Not bad.
Gerrit And you know what? Flanders Dyke got married too.
Richard Yeah. Well, so it's near Valentine's Day. That's a love story for another day, talking about Flanders Dyke and Lucy Harris' daughter. We do have a couple of emails from the Phebe Draper mailbag. We actually have four million emails, but we'll be able to get to two before we jump right back in to people that eventually maybe wanted to see the plates, as we call it, Witnesses of the Book of Mormon, part two.
Gerrit They've already gone through the six-part Moroni. They know what this is.
Richard Five parts in an addendum. So this comes to us from John. I just listened to the bonus episode about the live event. I don't have anyone to abduct and force to attend with me. Maybe I can impress a hobo along the way, but I did sign up for the newsletter. And then he plugs for Gerrit to come and do a fireside up near Bear Lake Way, which is lovely this time of year.
Gerrit Everyone says you've got to get to Bear Lake in February. Everyone always says that.
Richard Yeah, they do. So but well, maybe he was asking me actually to come and do a fireside. I've never been asked to do a fireside.
Gerrit I assume I'd like to volunteer you to go do the fireside.
Richard Let's just get up there. I've been to I've probably been to what? 20, 30 of your fireside, something like that. I'm a roadie at this point, pretty much. Yeah, just going there. I'm running cables, setting up mics, doing different stuff, doing the guitar test. Yeah, sound check. Anyway, it's very nice, John. It allows for us to talk about. We did a bonus episode where we talked about a live studio audience for a recording of podcasts. We've received quite a few people that wanted to do something like that. We've received actually from a couple of friends of the show that might have a venue that we could use and have kind of really a fun, raucous event. What types of things are we going to do?
Gerrit I'm still totally opposed to it.
Richard Oh, no, you hate it so very much.
Gerrit I mean, you're asking me, what are we going to do? I'm going to find a way to not do it. That's what I'm doing. This is all Richard's plan. I don't want to do it. I'm being forced to do it.
Richard I don't understand. You do firesides in front of three, four, 500 people. What was the one we did outside of... Oh, where was that? What was the high school that you did that at? Out in Plain City Way. I can't remember.
Gerrit Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. There were a lot of people there.
Richard Yeah. Well, they're like 500 people. So that's fine. You're fine with that. But heaven forbid 25 people come. Boy, if we could only get 25.
Gerrit Yeah. Well, we might only get 25. Maybe it's just I'm afraid we'll find out just how unpopular we are.
Richard Well, that actually is a legitimate fear. So we sent out details in the newsletter. So the newsletter went out. So this email is coming out February 1st. And so we'll have the link to the newsletter in this recording. And we hope that you sign up for it. The details for the event will be in the newsletter. This is a newsletter we did twice last year, but we vowed to be more consistent in our newslettering.
Gerrit It was multiple times. It wasn't just twice.
Richard I think this is our third one.
Gerrit No, no, I've written more than that.
Richard Okay, this is our third, fourth one.
Gerrit Let's start fresh and call it our first one.
Richard Yeah, right. So let's just get this straight. I said this is our third one. You said, no, no, that's not right. This is like our fourth one. And I'm, okay, I'm sorry.
Gerrit Yeah, we'll just start over.
Richard I'm so sorry. Anyway, so it will be a fun, raucous event. When we did this for the tour, it was a blast. And the feedback we got from many of the people on the tour is one of the most fun parts about it. Gerrit will do kind of a standard. We'll probably, this will be in March, so we'll probably still be on Witnesses of the Book of Mormon. So we'll do kind of a standard thing where Gerrit goes through and does it, and then we'll answer questions from the audience that will be pre-sent in, because otherwise we're very nervous, because they'll obviously be about polygamy. And then there'll be giveaways, they'll be fun, general gaiety had by all. It'll be a good time.
Gerrit It sounds great. You're not going to get me to like really, I mean, what do you want me to say? I can't wait to put myself on the spot here?
Richard Well, so the first, this last newsletter that may have been possibly our fourth or maybe fifth that we've sent out, that's trying to get to see if there is demand for it and how many people would come. If 50 people want to come, then we'll get a certain venue. If 100 people want to come, we'll get a larger one. Or if it's really, really popular and 103 people want to come, then a different one. But I'm actually really excited for it. I think it'll be a lot of fun. And we will bring Gerrit kicking and screaming. And he will then at the end say, you know what, that was a lot of fun. Anyway, we are excited. Hopefully the listeners want to come out and get a chance to laugh along with us on that. So that'll be a good time. So please sign up for the newsletter, and that'll give you an opportunity to get additional details. In the February newsletter, we'll have kind of a sign up and location and all that stuff.
Richard So please sign up for that. Have I beat that dead horse enough? Genriff.
Gerrit Yeah, I think we're about there.
Richard Okay, very good.
Gerrit Let's read Ted's email.
Richard Well, so Ted, so Ted's email, we punted till, pun intended, till next week. Because it's about football and it's before the Super Bowl.
Gerrit I see.
Richard Yes.
Gerrit Ted, you're just going to have to hang out for just a little while. We want to know more of the results. We want to know more of the results of games before we comment on your commentary.
Richard So here's the thing. Us not reading Ted's email has nothing to do with the fact that he mainly is making fun of me the entire time. Nothing to do with that at all.
Gerrit Yeah. That's why I don't want to do the live event.
Richard This email comes to us, this next one from Elder Proctor. Professor LeDuc and other hosts, Dr. Dirkmaat, I would like to start this email by saying, I love the work you guys are doing and have enjoyed listening to your hilarious remarks about the history of the church. The most important thing is that I have learned many things that I am grateful to now have a knowledge of. There have been many people in my life that have benefited from the information that I have learned while listening, and I could not be more grateful. Now, how I first heard of this podcast was not how most people end up hearing you for the first time. It wasn't through my mom in a car or even in the back of a cop car driving to jail.
Gerrit Wait, that's how most people learn? So Elder Proctor thinks that our primary way of getting people to listen is by getting them arrested and putting them in the back of prop cars.
Richard Well, he assumes the only way people would listen is they're forced to by either their mother or the law enforcement. One, look, we still have several spots available. We've had several people actually sign up just this week for the Palmyra Kirtland Tour. We still have some, we have about seven or so spots available on that tour, and we would love for more people to sign up. Officer R, who does arrest people, put them in the back of the car and then make them listen, will be coming on that Palmyra Kirtland Tour. If you want to hear from the editor, me.
Gerrit Yeah, if you want to meet someone who's willing to arrest someone in order to force them to listen, now is your chance.
Richard Yes. And again, as I always say, the best part about the tour is the people that are on the tour, not anything to do with... Also, the church sites are lovely.
Gerrit All right. And we're going to be going to the Joseph Smith Home in Kirtland, which even if you've been on a church tour before, you haven't been to the Joseph Smith Home in Kirtland because it was just opened by the church. You are going to be able to do something that even the person who's in your ward saying like, I've been to Kirtland like 19 times. Well, you haven't been to the Joseph Smith Home, have you? Because it wasn't open.
Richard And if you want bragging rights over that obnoxious person, come on the Palmyra Kirtland Tour.
Gerrit I feel like everyone has at least one person in their ward who brags to them about things that you couldn't possibly expect to have them brag to you. You know, they just walk up to you at church and they say things like, you know, I have every issue of the new era from before 1970. All right. You know what? Thank you.
Richard My mother-in-law did. She kept every new era, every enzyme and every friend for as long back as they would go, because you never knew if you needed to cut something out for a collage. And it was like, wow, that is a commitment to collages.
Gerrit Look, it made a lot of sense back in the day. Like, my dad kept a lot of them too, because we didn't have the internet. So when someone said, hey, Brother Dirkmaat, do you want to give a talk on tithing? Well, you couldn't just type tithing into your search bar and then, you know.
Richard So were they indexed though? Like he's going back and saying, all right, 83. I thought I heard a talk about tithing in 83.
Gerrit That is how my dad would do it. My dad would read through all of them because it wasn't just talks, you know, it was like articles on it. And so he would read them all and he would remember, I remember a few years ago, there was an article on tithing and then he'd like go back and look at all the table of contents until he found it.
Richard That is impressive. My mother-in-law still had those in 2007, though.
Gerrit Post-internet.
Richard Yes.
Gerrit All right.
Richard So back to Elder Proctor here. Anyway, not a rest in the back of the car. First time, I walked into work one day and heard these two old men, so, I mean, these guys are probably like in their 30s, these two old men, very Elder Proctor of you here, to just assume these two old men snickering over some game and the over underscore shortly followed with a direction to President Hinckley's time.
Gerrit We're the old men, Richard. It was us. It was us. We're the old men.
Richard Oh, we're the old men. I thought it was... Oh, I see.
Gerrit You overheard someone... You know what? To Elder Proctor, we are basically dead.
Richard You know what? This is very funny. This is why you read the e-mails before, so you know the context. That is funny. All right. Well, so old men sounds about right. Shortly followed by the direction to President Hinckley's talk given in April 2005 about gambling. At first in my mind, I thought, why is my coworker listening to a podcast about gambling and why do they sound like members of our church? The thing that made this even more strange in my head is that my coworker is also a bishop. And the day before was talking to me about some of the things that he had done on his mission. In the end, I listened to the rest of the podcast wondering why this guy knows so much about church history and why the other dude keeps chiming in with random things about gambling.
Gerrit Thank you for this email, Elder Proctor, thank you very.
Richard Without thinking too much about what I just listened to, I asked my coworker who these guys were and what I just listened to the last 30 minutes. Then he explained that it was a podcast on the history of the church and was hosted by a historian that helped to write the Joseph Smith Papers. After hearing that, I was a little more interested and went back and started from the beginning. And I have been hooked ever since and enjoyed listening to both of you while I prepare for my mission. There are many other stories that I have regarding this podcast and crushing people's dreams about things that have become culture in our church and not doctrine. It is truly one of my favorite things to let someone know how wrong they are in a very loving way while also being one of his most favorite things to say, Hey, you know how you gave a talk on that?
Gerrit Yeah, that's totally false. Just so you know, love you.
Richard But I love you. That's the loving way. And the one that is right about a subject and is all thanks to this wonderful podcast, he goes on, he has a question about the Hill Cumorah opening up, Gerrit, which is a good question. We don't have time to get to it here because we're getting back to the Witnesses. He's going to serve a mission in the great state of Louisville or the great state of Kentucky in the Louisville, Kentucky mission. And so we gave him access to all of the premium content as he continues to prepare to go out to the Bluegrass State and teach the wonderful people out in Kentucky.
Gerrit See, he's a perfect example of what we hoped our premium giveaway would do. He was someone who was uninterested in the podcast, heard us talking about gambling lines, decided that the only way he could get his premium content because he couldn't bet on our games because we're always wrong, was to go on-
Richard Always wrong in two weeks after the game.
Gerrit Yeah, exactly. So he couldn't use us for gambling help. So we decided the only way I'm going to get that premium content is to go on a mission. So he's gaming the system. And that's what our hope is. Our hope is that there's a lot of people that are like, you know, I don't know if I want to serve a mission. Oh, I get free premium content if I go? Okay, I'll serve a mission. That's what our hope is.
Richard That is our hope. And it's going to bring the gospel to the many people of Louisville. That'll be lovely. And Gerrit, in the newsletter that was just released this week, you have a great story about Wilford Woodruff, and I talk a little bit in the tangent corner about Passover and reference President Hinckley's talk about gambling. So it's a great newsletter, highly recommend it.
Gerrit We want everyone to read that talk. Well, should we hop into our... You know, when last we left you, I believe Lucy Harris had just seen a snake. Is that something like that?
Richard Yes, she had seen a snake. I view that it was like the movie Holes in Joseph Smith's yard.
Gerrit She was digging everywhere. Yes. So we know that there are eventually going to be witnesses of the plights. The question is, at what point does Joseph know that there's going to be witnesses of the plights? So at this point, you know, in a kind of a stepping away from what we normally do, let's go to the scriptures and see what Joseph Byte have known. Part of the reason why I say we don't really know is, of course, at this point, Joseph isn't, he is not translating them super actively yet at this point. Now he is going to, but everything that he's translating at this point is part of what is going to be lost when the 116 pages are lost. So what we don't know is, did that original Book of Lehi, that portion that was lost, did it talk about people being witnesses of the gold plates?
Gerrit We know from 2nd Nephi that there is a statement about people seeing those plates, but 2nd Nephi would have been one of the last things that Joseph Smith translated. Remember, Joseph Smith is translating from the large plates. The Book of Lehi comes from those large plates. The large plates is everything that Mormon abridged. It's Mormon's book that he wrote. And then, after he's already done with the whole first part of it, he finds the small plates of Nephi and he puts them with the rest of his record. So what Mormon had originally written, all of his painstaking historical work on Lehi and Nephi and Jacob and on down the line, all the way to King Benjamin, we've lost that. That's gone because it was part of the 116 pages. So it's possible that Mormon provides some kind of commentary about what's going to happen when these plates come forth and that Joseph has already translated that portion and that that's part of the portion that gets lost with the 116 pages in the summer of 1828.
Gerrit It's possible, but we really don't have any way of knowing. So in 2 Nephi chapter 27, this would have been near the end of translation. So this would have been roughly June or July of 1829. So we're several years, a couple of years later, actually. And there's going to be a pretty express statement about witnesses of this book. 2 Nephi 27 verse 11, And the day cometh of the words of the book, which were sealed, shall be read upon the housetops, and they shall be read by the power of Christ, and all things shall be revealed unto the children of men, which have ever been among the children of men, and whichever will be even unto the end of the earth. Wherefore, at that day, when the book shall be delivered unto the man of whom I have spoken, the book shall be hid from the eyes of the world, that the eyes of none shall behold it, save it be that three witnesses shall behold it by the power of God, besides him to whom the book shall be delivered, and they shall testify to the truth of the book and the things therein.
Gerrit And there is none other which shall view it, save it be a few according to the will of God, to bear testimony of his word unto the children of men, for the Lord God has said that the words of the faithful should speak as if it were from the dead. So you do get a scriptural promise that there are people who are going to see these gold plates. But you actually don't get this scriptural promise to Joseph in a way that Joseph would know about it until mid 1829, when Joseph is nearing the end of the translation. Instead, so we're here with Lucy Harris digging up his yard. This is mid 1828, so this is before you can get Joseph has this knowledge that there eventually will be a witness.
Gerrit Before we leave the Book of Mormon, let's talk about the other place in the Book of Mormon that references the fact that there's going to be witnesses. This comes from Moroni. So not Mormon again, maybe Mormon did say something in the Book of Lehi. We just don't know. So maybe Joseph did know, you know what, there are going to be other witnesses. But as far as we're aware, Joseph doesn't seem to think that he's going to be allowed to show the plates to anyone because that's what the angel said. And so even though you've got Lucy Harris promising money, finding snakes and digging up yards, he can't just show it to her even though he clearly would like to be able to because that could settle this controversy very quickly. Of course, Martin Harris wants to be able to see the plates as well, wants his wife to be able to see the plates, but he's not able to show them. So in Ether chapter 5, Moroni is, he's explaining what he's done here in the abridgement of the Book of Ether, and it talks about what will happen when these things come forth and what these witnesses will say.
Gerrit Again, this is something Joseph would not have translated yet because he translates this after Oliver Cowdery comes to serve as his scribe in April of 1829. So this is something Joseph will eventually learn, but he hasn't learned it yet. So this is Ether chapter 5, we start with verse 1, And now I, Moroni, I have written the words which were commanded me, according to my memory. And I have told you the things which I have sealed up. Therefore, touch them not, in order that ye may translate. For that thing is forbidden you, except by and by it shall be wisdom in God. And behold, ye may be privileged that ye may show the plates unto those who shall assist to bring forth this work. And unto three shall they be shown by the power of God. Wherefore, they shall know of a surety that these things are true. And in the mouth of three witnesses shall these things be established.
Gerrit And the testimony of three, and this work, in the which shall be shown forth the power of God and also his word, of which the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost bear record, and all this shall stand as a testimony against the world at the last day. And if it so be that they repent and come unto the Father in the name of Jesus, they shall be received into the kingdom of God. And now, if I have no authority for these things, judge ye. For ye shall know that I have authority when ye shall see me, and we shall stand before God at the last day. Amen. I mean, Moroni is coming in pretty hot there. It's almost as if Moroni has seen in vision that the Lucy Harrises of the world, the Eberhous and the Philastus Hurlbuts of the world, are going to say, you don't really have plates. And if you had plates, you'd be able to show them.
Gerrit Moroni is going to say, look, these words stand as a testimony. The testimony of those witnesses are going to stand as a testimony. And if that's not good enough, well, then I'll see you at the Judgment Bar of God. You know, Moroni loves to sign off with, okay, we'll see in the end who's right. Pretty sure I am. But, you know, just a little tongue in cheek there. I mean, he's clearly, he understands that this record is not going to be accepted, that it's not going to be believed, even with these witnesses who are going to be shown the plates by the power of God. So both 2nd Nephi 27 and Ether 5 talk about the fact there's going to be witnesses, but Joseph doesn't yet have this scriptural knowledge because he hasn't translated this portion yet.
Gerrit And again, the caveat being maybe in the Book of Lehi, Mormon has a nice interlude where he's like, hey, by the way, eventually God's going to show these plates to people. We just don't know if that's part of the Law Center 16 pages early. Now, what happens after Lucy Harris, because we love talking about Lucy Harris and her opposition, what happens when she fails in her attempts to see the plates? Does that end our problems? Well, it does not. And what occurs is as it becomes obvious to her that Martin Harris is not going to give up on this. Now, I think that Lucy and look, a lot of people speculate that Lucy Harris has something to do with the loss of the 116 pages. Now, it's certainly not a very big stretch of the imagination, right?
Gerrit I mean, let me get this straight. Someone who essentially traded her daughter's matrimony for that person to break into their home and steal a page that had the characters of the gold plates on it and make a copy of it, that person possibly could be willing to also steal pages of the work itself, right? I mean, we've already established she's willing to surreptitiously take pages. That's happening regardless. So I think a lot of people assume that she has something to do with the loss of the 116 pages. She clearly isn't the only person involved, however. As we talked about with the preface to the Book of Mormon, there is apparently a group of men whose plan it was, because they're inspired by the devil, to steal those pages and to mark them up differently. Well, of course, the loss of the pages, it creates a strange relationship, to say the least, between Martin Harris and Joseph.
Gerrit But it doesn't actually sever the relationship. And apparently, by March of 1829, so again, the pages, let me just do a little quick chronology. The pages, the 116 pages, Martin Harris takes those in June of 1828 up to Palmyra. And they are stolen at some point during the next couple of weeks. Joseph comes up, finds out they're gone, and the pages are gone, comes back home, thinking that his soul is lost. An angel, you know, the angel appears to him. He receives Doctrine and Covenant, Section 3, which says God's work is not going to be frustrated, that there's going to be a way provided. And, you know, we don't really know how much more translation he does in the interim there. It doesn't seem like a whole lot. But in March of 1829, okay, so again, chronology wise, in April is when Oliver Cowdery first shows up in Harmony at Joseph's doorstep.
Gerrit Okay, so in April, Oliver Cowdery shows up. A couple of months before that, Martin Harris shows up. Martin Harris has a pretty familiar question coming from a Harris. The question is, can I see the plates? Now, unlike Lucy and her snake dodging and hole digging self, who's simply trying to make sure that he actually has the plates, Martin is apparently motivated by something externally, not just his own witness. Now remember, at this point, Martin has already, he's already been a scribe for dozens of pages of the translation. He's already seen the miracle at work. He's already seen Joseph, the illiterate farm boy, speaking out words from the seer stones that he knows are beyond Joseph's capabilities.
Gerrit He's already witnessed this miracle. He's already witnessed it. So why is he coming down and asking to see the place? Well, let's go to a document that is a pretty cool document. I wish I could put an image up for you. Even if I did, though, you wouldn't have any ability to read it. It is horrible handwriting. And this is from, it's called The Testimony of Martin Harris from 1870. And Edward Stevenson, who is a member of the Seventy, he is going to meet with Martin Harris in 1870 to kind of ask him about his early conversion and how he came to be a witness of the plates and whatnot. Well, it's a haphazard interview. I mean, it's all over the place. And like I said, the handwriting is, it is going to, you know, you will say, where's my seer stone? Where's my Drogon's Decoder Wheel that I could use to see, is that a seven?
Gerrit What letter is this that he put in there? But it's in the church archives. You can go read it for yourself. But he talks about what's going on in this spring summer of 1829. Again, before Oliver Cowdery shows up and the translation work is resumed in earnest. He says, in 1829, in March, the people rose up united and united against the work, gathering testimony against the place. Okay, so what's going on in Palmyra? According to Lucy Smith, Lucy Harris is determined to stop Joseph and her husband's involvement with the place. And my guess is what happens is she thinks the loss of the 116 pages, that will be the end of it. Well, Martin still believes. And so when he starts to say he's still planning to pay for the printing of the Book of Mormon, Lucy Harris takes matters into her own hands.
Gerrit And she starts going house to house. In fact, Lucy Smith says she flew from house to house like a possessed spirit, basically, trying to get testimony against the Smiths and testimony against the plates. Because her plan appears to be to make a criminal fraud complaint against Joseph Smith. Trying to maybe place Joseph in jail for claiming that he has plates when, of course, he doesn't actually have plates. So, Martin Harris, recalling this time period, says that the people united against the work gathering testimony against the plates and said that they had testimony enough that if I did not put Joseph in jail and his father for deception, they would me.
Gerrit So they apparently come to Martin Harris in this, and they say, hey, you're telling people he has plates. And if you have plates, if you're telling people he has plates, then you're an accessory to this. You're also claiming that he has something that he doesn't have. You're part of this, Martin. We'll put Joseph in jail if we have to, but you're going to go to jail as an accessory because you're part of this fraud.
Richard So wait, she's convinced that he has them, so convinced that she digs up his entire yard, doesn't find them, sees the some evidence of what comes from them, right? And then says that they don't exist at all.
Gerrit So this is a great question to make. One could argue that she's attempting to employ illegal means to force Joseph's hand, to force him to show the plates. I mean, remember she did say, well, even if Martin Harris saw the plates, that would be enough. I mean, or if someone, if some other witness saw the plates. That's what she said originally when she was digging up his yard and ransacking his cupboards. But it is, like I said, it is a little bit schizophrenic, right? Show me the plates. I know you have plates. They're buried somewhere in your yard. I'm going to waste all day looking for them. Let's now throw Joseph in jail for fraud because he doesn't actually have any plates. So it's possible that the whole reason she's pushing that agenda is, well, there's only one way to prove that you have plates, right? Yeah, dump them on the table there in front of me.
Gerrit Or maybe she's decided because she wasn't able to find them that Joseph's been lying from the beginning. That he doesn't have any plates at all.
Richard So what do you think it is? Do you think she's being cunning to get him to show them or she now doesn't believe it? It seems like more likely that it would be that she's trying to force it because there's more evidence of it, not less.
Gerrit It is a good question. I mean, and it really goes back to our earlier statement in the last episode of just how schizophrenic people are surrounding the plates. I'm both claiming Joseph is a liar and breaking into his house. I'm both getting a mob together and also saying he made the whole thing up. I mean, well, which is it? Am I a liar or do I have it and you're trying to steal it? Because if I have it, how crazy is it that you aren't willing to also take the angelic injunction about the plates if you assume that he has it? I mean, you could always take the middle road, which actually some non-Latter-day Saint scholars have tried to take. What do we do about the fact that the plates exist? Because there are so many witnesses, you know, spoiler alert, we're eventually going to get to Witnesses of the Plates. There are so many Witnesses of the Plates.
Gerrit How do you deal with that? And we have all of Joseph Smith's writings. Nothing in Joseph Smith's writings suggests that he doesn't absolutely believe he was called by God. So what do you do with the fact that he has plates? Now, the cynic, the anti-Mormon, they just say, oh, Joseph Smith just made it up and just, you know, he just like forged some plates, you know, he just, he stole a bunch of tin from a nearby town. And then he figured out how to work tin. And then he found a way to tarnish the tin to make it look like gold enough to where people who were actually intelligent had actually seen gold in their life, still thought the tin was gold. And then he etched a lot of things on there that made people think that they were ancient characters. And then when people saw it, they still thought that it was real. And that's how he had the plates.
Richard So if I can make a plug for your book, one of my favorite parts about your book is there's a line in there or part of an explanation where... Okay, so let's say he got tin. He had to get a loan to get the wood to get the box to put the metal in. Like, he couldn't afford even the wood, right? Like, he had to get a loan for that. The idea that he's getting tin and forging it...
Gerrit Well, he's stealing the tin.
Richard Oh, never mind. All right, I take it all back.
Gerrit Yeah, he's a criminal. Yeah. So even though we don't have any record of this, hundreds of pounds of tin being stolen, and we don't know where he kept it, and you'd think that you'd find some evidence of this, since there's so much of it that was taken, that we'd find it. But I mean, look, that's how an antagonist tries to deal with this. But when you're an actual PhD historian, even though you're not a member, right? Well, what do you do then? Because Joseph does not appear to be deliberately trying to deceive people. And so you take things like, you know, Dr. Anne Taves, who has said things like, he must have actually found something. And he just thought that it was ancient and that it was from God. And of course it wasn't, but he must have actually found something because that's why he was so certain that he was called by God.
Gerrit But of course he wasn't, you know, because God doesn't exist. But that he has something is a big deal for historians to deal with. Because it places Joseph Smith in a completely different category than most religious figures in history. Because you can't just simply dismiss Joseph to say, well, I'm sure he thought that an angel appeared to him, but of course an angel didn't, because angels don't exist. Because you might, you know, think that an angel appeared to you. I met multiple people in Wisconsin who thought that angels had appeared to them, and also that they were Jesus. None of them, I think, were. And so I simply dismissed that by saying, A, you smell like you've drunk an entire bottle of wild turkey this morning, in the past hour. And that might be the reason why you think that. And B, you know, you might earnestly believe that, but that's not what actually happened. But with Joseph Smith, what do you do about the fact that he has plates?
Gerrit The fact that he has plates is something that is not easily refutable. It's not easily thrown away or to the side. So this, I don't know how to answer your question as far as what do I think she's doing. It's possible at this point, she's just concluded that Joseph's just lying about all this and that her husband's been tricked by it. And so she's probably primarily most concerned with the fact that her husband is saying that he's going to pay for the printing of it. So I honestly think what's going on is that she's so worried that Martin Harris is going to sell their farm or invest some of their other money in paying to print the Book of Mormon that she thinks, well, there's one way to put a stop to this once and for all is if Joseph goes to jail for fraud, well, then I guess that will end the whole Book of Mormon nonsense.
Gerrit Maybe there's a part of her. I mean, it's so hard to get inside someone's head. I mean, what causes someone to go from thinking that Joseph could be telling the truth to the point where she's the one saying, I'll pay for the printing of the Book of Mormon, I'll pay for it, I'll pay for it, to traveling the three-day journey down to Harmony to dig up the yard and ransack the house to try to find those plates that she thinks exists to trying to organize a legal action against Joseph and his family for fraud. I mean, that's a pretty moving needle, but you could see at any point she might decide, you know what, this has all been deception, this has all been fraud, and I'm not going to let my family lose their money over this. And so it's interesting that we know from Lucy Smith that that happened. And then we know from Martin Harris, you know, he talks about it, that they told him, we are going to put you in jail if you don't testify that this is all a fraud.
Gerrit You are an accessory to this. So Martin Harris goes down, he says, so I went from Waterloo south to Palmyra and he talks about going down there. And he goes down to see the plates, but he's not able to see the plates. Anyway, he actually agrees to give my wife $100 if it was not a deception, so if it wasn't a fraud, right? This is what Martin Harris is writing. And they went to go down to see the plates, but the Lord forbid it. And so they weren't able to do that. Now Martin's wife did lift them. According to this account, she actually did lift the box that they were in or lifted them underneath the cover, and so did Martin.
Gerrit So she actually does get a physical witness of the plates. She doesn't get to see them, but she had hefted them. She lifted them. She felt them underneath the cover. So Joseph actually gives her as much of a witness as he thinks he can. I mean, in some ways, it almost feels like Joseph is reading the fine print on something. And like, now you said I couldn't show anyone the plates, right? But if they're just lifting the plates and holding them and feeling them under a cover, they can't see them, eh, Moroni? I don't know if Moroni would be like, all right, Joseph, stop trying to game the system. I mean, but at least according to Martin Harris' later interview, he says that both Lucy Harris and Martin Harris lifted those plates and felt them underneath a cover. So now Lucy, now I don't know when that happened.
Gerrit Maybe that did happen when she was down visiting them. He's very all over the place in this interview. So maybe this had already happened. And maybe that's one of the things that spurs her saying, he's got something, this is fraud. And it might actually be the physical aspect of it that really does trigger her, right? If he has something, it clearly can't be from an angel. So if he has something, he can only have something because he intends to deceive my husband and take our money. Maybe that's her thought process. In any case, when Martin Harris comes down to see Joseph, that's a pretty serious thing. Now we know this actually does go to trial. Lucy Harris, I mean Lucy Smith talks about this, that they actually are going to take this to a criminal trial. In Lyons, a neighboring town, this is going to be something that's put on trial.
Gerrit But let's talk about what happens when Martin Harris comes down first. Martin comes down, and this is where our section 5 of the Doctrine and Covenants comes from. He, March 1829, comes down and wants to see the plates. And it looks like Joseph wants to show them to him. Again, for Joseph, if anyone can see them, that's great. Section 5, verse 1. Behold I say unto you, that as my servant Martin Harris has desired a witness at my hand, that you, my servant Joseph Smith Jr. have got the plates of which you have testified and borne record that you have received of me. And now behold, this shall you say unto him. He who spake unto you, said unto you, I the Lord am God, and have given these things unto you, my servant Joseph Smith Jr. and have commanded you that you should stand as a witness of these things.
Gerrit And I have caused that you should enter into a covenant with me, that you should not show them except to those persons to whom I commanded you. And you have no power over them, except I grant it unto you. Now this might be the first time that Joseph learns that he could possibly be commanded to show the plates to someone. Again, this is March of 1829, before most of what we have of the Book of Mormon today has been translated, and certainly before Ether and before 2 Nephi that talk about their being Witnesses. Interesting that the way the Lord responds is, you go tell Martin Harris that you have these things because I gave them to you, and that you made a covenant to me that you will not show them. That should be enough here.
Gerrit Again, so it actually suggests with the text of the Revelation that, sure, Martin's primary purpose in coming down is probably this threatened legal action, whether it's a lawsuit or this criminal activity, whatever it actually is, because what's the easiest way to end a fraud claim, right? Joseph claims he has gold plates. He's taking money from people for those gold plates. He doesn't really have gold plates. Martin Harris says, yeah, he has the gold plates. I just saw them. Oh, well, I guess that kind of ends the whole fraud part, right? So I think that's what's going on here. Martin Harris says, I'll come down to see them. If I can see the plates, then I can go back up to the trial. And if they put me on trial for being an accessory to fraud, they put me on the stand and say, you gave Joseph Smith money, didn't you? Yeah, I gave Joseph Smith money. But you know he doesn't really have any gold plates. Actually, I saw them.
Gerrit Well, that should end the discussion of fraud. But the Lord here is saying that it's not the kind of witness that Martin Harris is going to have. Of course, the Lord knows that Martin Harris is eventually going to be one of the witnesses of gold plates. In fact, he's going to be one of the witnesses in just a few short months. Just three or four months later, Martin Harris is going to see the plates. But here, because the purpose in trying to see them was to win a secular battle in some secular courtroom or to placate the mind of Martin Harris or to especially placate Lucy Harris, he's not going to give Joseph the right to show them to him. Verse four, And you have a gift to translate the plates. And this is the first gift that I bestowed upon you. And I commanded that you should pretend to no other gift until my purpose is fulfilled.
Gerrit For I will grant unto you no other gift until it is finished. Verily I say unto you that woe shall come unto the inhabitants of the earth if they will not hearken unto my words. Kind of channeling, you know, the Lord, the Lord knows what Moroni wrote already. But here the Lord is in this revelation, saying something pretty similar to Moroni. If people aren't going to listen to these words, there's going to be a problem that people are going to have. Verse 6, for hereafter you shall be ordained to go forth and deliver my words unto the children of men. But if they will not believe my words, they would not believe you, my servant Joseph, if it were possible that you should show them all these things which I have committed unto you. Oh, this unbelieving and stiff-necked generation, mine anger is kindled against them.
Gerrit Behold, verily I say unto you, I have reserved those things which I have entrusted unto you, my servant Joseph, for a wise purpose in me, and it shall be made known unto future generations. But this generation shall have my word through you. And in addition to your testimony, the testimony of three of my servants, whom I shall call and ordain, unto whom I shall show these things, and they shall go forth with my words that are given through you. Yea, they shall know of a surety that these things are true, for from heaven will I declare it unto them. And I will give them power, that they may behold and view these things as they are. And to none else will I grant this power to receive this same testimony among this generation. In this, the beginning of the rising up, of the coming forth of my church out of wilderness, clear as the moon, fair as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners.
Gerrit And the testimony of three witnesses shall I send forth of my word. And behold, whosoever believeth on my words, them will I visit with the manifestations of my spirit, and they shall be born of me even of water and of the spirit. And you must wait yet a little while, for ye are not yet ordained. And their testimony shall go forth under the condemnation of this generation if they harden their hearts against them. So, I know I've read quite a bit there, but this is a pretty incredible exchange between the Lord and Joseph. First of all, you get a re-statement of who Joseph is and where his power and authority comes from. God gave it to him. God gave him the gift to translate, and that's the gift that he has right now. That Martin Harris isn't going to be allowed to see the plates because God made a covenant with Joseph that he's not supposed to show the plates to anyone else.
Gerrit And then, verse 7, I know I've referenced it on here before, it's one of my favorite verses in all of written scripture. Because all of us say, well, if I just saw the plates, then I'd believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet. We all say things like that. I say things like that. That if I had an angel appear to me, I wouldn't be like Laman and Lemuel. Yeah, but Laman and Lemuel were like Laman and Lemuel, right? So an angel appearing to you is not the deciding factor in whether or not you believe. When the Lord says in verse 7, if they will not believe my words, they would not believe you, my servant Joseph, if it were possible that you showed them all these things which I've committed unto you. I think it's a good place to pause and say, I know that we all want physical evidence of the Lamanites and Nephites and where the Book of Mormon took place.
Gerrit I have always been fascinated by that kind of stuff. You know, the church has given its statement that we don't know where the Book of Mormon took place, so please stop acting like you do. But I'm fascinated by that kind of stuff. Wouldn't it be great if we could find historical evidence that proves that the Nephites were living in, you know, throw a dart at the map wherever, right? Do you think that would actually cause people to believe that the Book of Mormon is true? For years, people attacked the truthfulness of the Bible because some of the places in the Bible that had been named had not been found archaeologically. And so therefore, well, that must have just been made up. Well, since then, they have found some of those things. Has that led to a massive increase in the number of people who believe the Bible is the Word of God? Is there just an outpouring of Christianity everywhere because we found an inscription that talks about King David and all the people said, we don't even have any inscriptions about King David.
Gerrit King David probably didn't even exist. That was probably just made up. Oh, look, we found an inscription of King David. So, I mean, like, suddenly those people didn't all become Christians.
Richard It's not just religious stuff. You're in a political argument. You're in any sort of argument with any particular person on any particular issue. You show them, well, this is what this person said. Well, but it didn't necessarily mean like that. You see it all the time. Like, it seems like a ridiculous thing to say, but we see it all the time.
Gerrit I mean, look at the people. I know I've already mocked them before on a previous podcast, but look at the people who will try to pick apart Joseph Smith's prophecy on the coming of the American Civil War, and they'll attack it like this. Well, I mean, Joseph Smith said that the slaves would rise up against their masters, and there really weren't very many slave insurrections during the Civil War, so that proves that he's a false prophet. Like, can you even hear yourself at this point? So you're just giving him all the other things that he predicts that it's going to happen, he predicts where it's going to take place, he predicts that it's going to be horribly bloody when no one thought it was going to be bloody, but on this one point, yeah, I mean, there weren't as many slave insurrections as I thought there should be.
Richard The one that I heard the most was, well, that was obvious. It's like me saying, really, it was obvious?
Gerrit Yeah, and that's why it was so obvious that no one did anything about it, and no one expected it to be when it happened. I mean, we have a whole podcast on this. Go back and listen to it, Section 87. I mean, when someone says that's not a powerful prediction because, well, everyone knew it was going to happen anyway, talk about presentist thinking. That's like someone saying, I always knew that Donald Trump was going to become a president of the United States back in the 80s or 90s when Home Alone first came out.
Richard The Simpsons knew.
Gerrit It is funny that the Simpsons do have a prediction there. I'm not saying that the Simpsons are prophets, though. But the whole point is, so this person gets through the entire point of Section 87, all of these powerful witnesses demonstrating that, you know, that Joseph is predicting this correctly. And instead of going, huh, maybe this isn't the best place to attack Joseph on, they instead try to say, well, I mean, sure, the South tried to get Great Britain to join their side, but they didn't, so that shows that it's wrong, even though Great Britain was outfitting privateers and sending armaments and sending weapons and sending all kinds of food, stuff and support to the South the entire war. I mean, the reality is, when someone is not going to believe, miracles rarely change their mind.
Gerrit Look, you have people like Saul, so sometimes it does make a difference. But it's this intoxicating thing that many of us really believe, if only we saw a miracle, then we believe. Here the Lord is definitively saying, that is not how people are going to have faith. You guys think if you show them the sword of Laban and the gold plates, then suddenly people would believe if they won't listen to the words of the Lord when the Lord gives them those words. They wouldn't believe if they, if you were showing them the sword of Laban tomorrow, they would say, oh, well, he must have gotten that from somewhere, but there's no way it's actually from the Nephites. I mean, they would find a way to dismiss it. Now, Martin Harris is going to have a little bit of a, this revelation goes on after talking about the fact that there will be witnesses, but it's not time for those witnesses yet.
Gerrit There is, the Lord begins to directly reference Martin Harris and his inquiries. This is verse 23 of section 5. And now again, I speak unto you, my servant Joseph, concerning the man that desires the witness, so Martin Harris. Behold, I say unto him, he exalts himself and he does not humble himself sufficiently before me. But if he will bow down before me and humble himself in mighty prayer and faith in the sincerity of his heart, then I will grant unto him a view of the things which he desires to see. And then he shall say unto the people of this generation, Behold, I have seen the things which the Lord has shown unto Joseph Smith Jr. and I know of a surety that they are true, for I have seen them, for they have been shown unto me by the power of God and not of man. And I, the Lord, command him, my servant Martin Harris, that he shall say no more unto them concerning these things, except he shall say, I have seen them and they have been shown unto me by the power of God and these are the words which he shall say.
Gerrit But if he deny this, he will break the covenant which he has covenanted before me, covenanted with me, and behold, he is condemned. And now, except he humble ith himself and acknowledge unto me that he has done that he has done which are wrong, the things that he has done which are wrong, and covenant with me that he will keep my commandments and exercise faith in me, behold, I say unto him, he shall have no such views, for I will grant unto him no views of the things which I have spoken. And if this be the case, I command you, my servant Joseph, that you shall say unto him that he shall do no more, nor trouble me any more concerning this matter. So, Joseph receives this very direct answer. Martin Harris has a legitimate reason to ask, but what you also get from this revelation is that part of this is Martin Harris is himself being somewhat, in some way sinful, that he is not keeping the commandments the way that he's supposed to.
Gerrit And in part, I think it's because he's looking for these witnesses. Now, how great is it for Martin that he's told that he can have a witness, that if he humbles himself sufficiently, bows down, humbles himself in mighty prayer, that he will get a view of these things. So notice the order in which God requires these witnesses. Martin, once you have a certain testimony of these things, then you can see the plates. You don't get to see the plates so that you can have a witness. You have a testimony and then you get to see them, which I think is something that's wonderfully applicable to all of us. I mean, we all want the miracle to convert us in our faith. The reality is we need the Holy Spirit to convert us, and then miracles will come.
Gerrit But you receive no witness until after the trial of your faith. For whatever reason, in this mortal world, the way that we become like God and prepare ourselves for that celestial realm, for an eternal marriage, for becoming like our Heavenly Father and our Heavenly Mother, for whatever reason, the way that we do that is by acting upon faith, not by acting upon miracles. Miracles are great. I look forward for miracles. I pray for miracles. I want miracles. But miracles can't be the foundation of my faith. The foundation of my faith always has to rest with the Holy Spirit telling me that Jesus is the Christ and that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God who saw and talked with that same Savior. Martin is going to get a promise that he could see the plates.
Gerrit Joseph is going to get a witness in Doctrine and Covenants Section 5 that other people will eventually see the plates. But it's not yet. It's not time. Now, in point of fact, what happens with the trial? Well, Martin Harris, we're not sure what kind of trial it is. My assumption is that it is a grand jury inquiry because Joseph doesn't have to be there, but they plan on sending a constable down to get him from Pennsylvania if things don't go his way, at least according to Lucy Smith. And Martin Harris has put on the stand and says that, yeah, he gave $50 to Joseph Smith, but it wasn't for the plates. It was to help him move. And that he doesn't feel like Joseph has robbed him of anything at all. And when the judge hears that, he essentially stops the proceedings and is like, let me get this straight. The only person who's given Joseph Smith any money is Martin Harris.
Gerrit Martin Harris is saying he gave him money to help him move and that Joseph gave him a note for it, gave him a promissory note for it. And Martin Harris isn't making a claim that it's fraud. You know, I don't think he got much of a case, Lucy, and the judge essentially throws it out. So here's a really great example of the physical world, the secular world around Joseph, attempting to put pressure on him to show people the gold plates before it was time. Unlike the 116 pages incident, Joseph doesn't ask three times. He doesn't say, are you sure, God, that I can't show him the plates? Instead, Joseph seems to have learned from that, and he just immediately, that's the end. But at least he now has a glimmer of hope. He at least knows that this terrible burden that he's been carrying, that only he can see the plates, at some point that burden is going to end, and he will no longer carry that weight on his own.
Gerrit And he now even knows that if he repents, if he humbles himself, Martin Harris will be one of those witnesses. So we will talk about what happens going forward with the gold plates and its witnesses in our next episode.
Intro So thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com.

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And in our podcast, we define Witness as someone who wanted to see it and then tried to destroy Joseph Smith's life when they didn't.

GerritBanter

Maybe it's just I'm afraid we'll find out just how unpopular we are.

GerritBanter

You know what? To Elder Proctor, we are basically dead.

GerritBanter

So he couldn't use us for gambling help. So we decided the only way I'm going to get that premium content is to go on a mission.

GerritBanter

You know, Moroni loves to sign off with, okay, we'll see in the end who's right. Pretty sure I am.

GerritBanter

The fact that he has plates is something that is not easily refutable.

GerritInsight

That if I had an angel appear to me, I wouldn't be like Laman and Lemuel. Yeah, but Laman and Lemuel were like Laman and Lemuel, right?

GerritInsight

I mean, the reality is, when someone is not going to believe, miracles rarely change their mind.

GerritInsight

You don't get to see the plates so that you can have a witness. You have a testimony and then you get to see them

GerritInsight

Miracles are great. I look forward for miracles. I pray for miracles. I want miracles. But miracles can't be the foundation of my faith.

GerritInsight

More from this episode

Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.

Claim check

What critics say, and what the episode found
Joseph forged the plates out of stolen tin.
If people could just see the plates or find Book of Mormon cities, they would believe.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.

Take it to class

Ready to copy into a lesson or a text

Joseph did not know there would be witnesses of the plates until D&C 5 in March 1829; the Book of Mormon passages about witnesses were translated later.

D&C 5:7: if people won't believe the Lord's words, they wouldn't believe even if they saw everything.

Martin Harris was promised a view of the plates after he humbled himself in mighty prayer; testimony came first, then the witness.

Miracles are wonderful, but they can't be the foundation of faith; that rests on the Holy Spirit's witness of Christ and his prophet.

Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.

Banter bin

The running jokes, for people who skip ahead
Witnesses of the Book of Mormon seriesPart 2, after an hour on Lucy Harris in Part 1; the podcast's definition of a witness is someone who wanted to see the plates and then tried to ruin Joseph (0:48-1:26, 17:33).
The Moroni series"Six-part Moroni," corrected to five parts and an addendum (2:32, 2:37).
Gerrit hates the live eventHe's being forced and will find a way not to do it; he fears learning how unpopular they are (4:14-5:00, 6:59).
Richard the roadieTwenty or thirty firesides, running cables and doing the sound check (3:23).
How many newsletters?Third, fourth or maybe fifth; let's start fresh and call it the first (5:41-6:05, 7:11).
Ted's emailPunted until after the Super Bowl, and not because it mocks Richard (8:27, 8:50).
Officer RMost people supposedly hear the podcast in the back of a cop car; Officer R is coming on the Palmyra Kirtland tour (9:43-10:34).
The two old menElder Proctor's description of the hosts, which Richard didn't get at first (13:02-13:47).
Every New Era since 1970The person in your ward who brags; Richard's mother-in-law kept every issue for collages (11:24-12:52).
Picks two weeks after the gameElder Proctor couldn't use them for gambling help, so he went on a mission for premium content (16:21-16:42).
Holes in Joseph's yardLucy Harris's search was like the movie Holes (17:46).
The Simpsons knewOn critics who say Joseph's Civil War prophecy was obvious (58:25-59:01).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

Your question could be next week’s episode
Questions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
Go deeperWhere to read more.

Go deeper

Deep dives the episode points toward
Edward Stevenson's 1870 interview with Martin Harris in the Church History Library (31:38).
The 1829 fraud proceeding in Lyons, New York, and Lucy Mack Smith's account of it (46:16, 65:33).
What the lost Book of Lehi might have said about witnesses (19:09).
The Standard of Truth episode on D&C 87 and the Civil War prophecy (57:31).
SOT Litner · S4E5.