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S4E50 · Has the Day of Miracles Ceased?
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Standard of Truth · Season 4 · Episode 50 · 1:11:29

Has the Day of Miracles Ceased?

The district president in Rio Gallegos was turning back to give up his own place in the sealing room when a member of the temple presidency said everyone could go in, and a whole family was sealed together.

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The question ·

Has the day of miracles ceased, or is God still moving things behind the scenes today?

Richard

Richard has finally earned his doctorate, and the hosts tease him about the new title before reading emails from missionaries and a grad student named Lindsay. Then Richard tells about Sweetwater Rescue, the charity that took about a hundred Saints from Rio Gallegos, Argentina, to the Buenos Aires temple with money raised by listeners. Gerrit shares how Nathan Smith, one of the few surgeons who could save young Joseph's leg without cutting it off, happened to live just a few miles from the Smiths. Richard tells story after story of timing only the Lord could arrange, from a mother and daughter who found the gospel just in time to a family sealed after their temple savings burned with their house. Gerrit ends by reminding listeners that God loves them and will make all things right.

Who comes upJoseph SmithLucy Mack SmithJoseph Smith Sr.Nathan SmithMoroniMormonAlma the YoungerJeffrey R. Holland
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Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I am joined, and as you might have heard in the intro, joined by Dr. Richard LeDuc.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. Thanks for having me back. I appreciate you throwing some respect on that name. I do appreciate it. It has immediately gone to my head.
Gerrit Yeah, I noticed that even when you were getting gas, you demanded that the convenience store worker refer to you as Doctor rather than Bud. It really is just as soon as they get a little authority as they suppose.
Richard Yeah, he's like, hey, Bud. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's Doctor.
Gerrit Yeah. Let me tell you something about implied referrals. That just immediately launches in to the entire dissertation. Richard's a voiceover in our intro. I'm sure some people will think that, you know, maybe they've stumbled upon some kind of comedic podcast, which maybe they have. But I think we're going to just keep doing that. We're just going to have you splice in different ways to say doctor every week.
Richard Different ways to do it. Yeah. No, I think that'll be really, really good. We spare no expense here at Standard of Truth podcast. And so, I feel like the edit was seamless. And I don't even know if people were able to notice it or catch it at all. By the way, I don't want to turn this into an Oscar acceptance speech. But I'd love to thank my wife, my long, long suffering wife.
Gerrit She was long suffering long before you went to PhD school. She was long suffering, let's see. I'm going to guess somewhere around June 16th of 2001.
Richard Somewhat while we were dating before that. So yeah, I've known her since the third grade. So whatever that was, what was I, eight? So yes, for some time, over 35 years. But the thing is, is that, I mean, I've mentioned this before, but it's my favorite, just to show how like there's one of my favorite clips in the show, The Office is when Michael Scott's talking about how he gives orders and that people are to follow them blindly, right? And Becky did that here where, again, the pitch was after I got my master's at the University of Utah, I had some desire to, like Joseph and the Methodists, I've had some desire to be united with them in academia. I really enjoyed it. And so I had a couple of professors that recommended it, and Gerrit, you did as well.
Richard I'm still not talking to you because of that, by the way. The only time Gerrit and I talk over the past four and a half years has been on this podcast, because I refused to speak with him otherwise.
Gerrit Even if we travel together, I write things on a card and show it to him. He says, Becky, will you tell Gerrit that? Yes.
Richard We have a marriage like someone in the 18th century where I'm back in England, and you are somewhere in the Ohio, right?
Gerrit Yes.
Richard That's about the closeness of the relationship now. The pitch was to my wife, hey, I really think I want to pursue a PhD. I think I would really enjoy it, and I think that it's something I want to do. She said, okay, well, how much would it cost? This much. Wow, that's a lot. But how much more will you make when you get it? Oh, oh no, I'll make much, much less. All right, let's do it. So anyway, so to her and to my family, there is a, we've talked about, it is the Christmas season. We've talked about our favorite examples or our favorite Christmas Carol episode or versions, right? And mine's the George C. Scott version. And near the end when he's at his nephew Fred's house, he puts his arm around him and he says, God forgive me for the time that I've wasted.
Richard And I sent that clip to my family. As soon as I, as soon as I did the PhD, I apologize. I said, I promised to be less of an absent husband and father. But anyway, they've been very supportive and lovely.
Gerrit I think if you buy them a prize winning goose, that seems to be what decides the difference in the.
Richard We did that for, we did that for Mr. Cratchit, for Bob Cratchit.
Gerrit We didn't have any of, I mean, for his own family, all I did was show up to the party.
Richard Yeah, and tried some of their award winning punch. Yeah, you're right. So if I follow that example, it's like, you know what, the real gift to you is time with me. That's the real gift.
Gerrit Tight as a drum, as a drum.
Richard Tight as my uncle Scrooge's purse strings. Anyway, so yeah, it's very exciting. The defense, I'm reminded of Monty Python, Flying Circus, and nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. That's what it felt like. I felt like when they brought out the torture devices, that didn't seem necessary, but go, pokes. And anyway, it's great.
Gerrit Getting a PhD is something that you just can't, I'm sure Brent is listening right now, sitting back and going, you guys don't know anything about it.
Richard Yeah, you guys don't know. Yeah, you went to Oklahoma State. Try, and it was, yeah, try Northwestern or Harvard.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard He sent me a very nice note, by the way. So many people sent me so many nice notes. It's so kind of everybody.
Gerrit Yeah. I'm sure Brent's sitting back saying like, oh, you think you're hot stuff now that you've, now you've got your little Oklahoma State PhD, I think he said, I think he meant it is encouragement, but he said, it's really just beginning.
Richard And I'm like, well, what are you talking about? That sounds much, much worse.
Gerrit Yeah, it's true. Well, congratulations to everyone here at the podcast. Our entire crack research team, they feel much better now knowing they're led by an actual doctor, as opposed to someone pretending some ABD, barking orders at them and demanding only green jelly beans and things like that. I think it's going to help the work environment too.
Intro Oh yeah.
Richard I think this will really be the thing that takes the podcast to the next level. I've already spoken more in this episode than I've spoken in an entire year of episodes. So yeah, I've got a high opinion of myself and people are going to hear about it.
Gerrit And in all seriousness, we're also going to talk about Richard and the experience that he had with many other people in going to Argentina with the funds raised by listeners of this podcast to help take families, individuals, kids to the temple. And so we'll talk about that. But first, let's get a few emails. I mean, we have to have at least some missionary from Pennsylvania email, or it's not a project.
Richard We actually got a couple of emails from missionaries from Pennsylvania. It's very funny. This first email, Gerrit, it comes to us from Elder Hunt. He said to who?
Gerrit Is he in Pennsylvania?
Richard Is he in Pennsylvania? I don't know.
Gerrit I mean, I feel like the default at this point is the only missionaries who listen to the podcast are in Pennsylvania or in Tucson, Arizona. Yeah.
Richard Your son's companion or missionaries...
Gerrit Yeah. It's either Elder Roman or a missionary from Pennsylvania. They're their listeners.
Richard On the P-Day this week, my son Rigdon down in Peru reminded me that I haven't uploaded any episodes for quite some time. I had 14 episodes that I needed to upload for missionaries, so I apologize. I was otherwise preoccupied. Anyway, a bunch of new stuff that's there for missionaries, which is great. Okay. This email comes to us from Elder Hunt. Again, assuming from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Again, to your point, Gerrit, if they don't put it, we'll just default that they're from Pittsburgh.
Gerrit Everyone's from the Pennsylvania mission?
Richard Yes. To whom it may concern and somewhat eventually Dr. Richard LeDuc.
Gerrit Not eventually. Currently.
Richard That's right. I come now before you begging, not for my sustenance or support, but yours. How can I continue to feed into Richard's post-retirement plan to abscond with the filthy lucre generated by the premium content if I have no premium content to hawk? How long can this business model continue? My trainer has exercised unrighteous dominion by having the audacity to return home this month, and takes my only source of vague references to subjects that may or may not appear in future episodes. In further outrage, he doesn't even have the decency to finish my training. And as such, I have to resort to desperate means. A pair of Cole Hawns. I don't know what those shoes are.
Gerrit Maybe they're more bougie than we have the ability to...
Richard Gerrit and I are from Idaho.
Gerrit I assume they're high-end shoes that we couldn't afford.
Richard The fact that I don't even know what they are. We're going to get the crack research staff on this.
Gerrit If you want us to know what you're talking about, Elder Hunt, you need to talk about Wonder Bread bags wrapped around our feet with rubber bands. Those are the only ways that you're going to have us go, oh, so that and Pro Wings. When I was a kid, do you remember Pro Wings, Richard?
Richard Of course, yeah.
Gerrit They were some of the earliest zip-up shoes. Boy, that was a time before I started getting made fun of for wearing them.
Richard I had a pair of Voight shoes.
Gerrit In honor of the actor or?
Richard Yeah, they were made by John Voight.
Gerrit They were John Voight's shoes? There's a whole Seinfeld episode about owning his car.
Richard Yeah, that's true. Actually, these shoes were also made by John Voight, the dentist. So Cole Hawns are a pair of shoes, by the way. The research staff got that back to me. A pair of Cole Hawns have been resting in the corner, collecting dust and are awaiting the lack of response from you. I pray that you find it in your hearts and revoltingly fat pockets to grant this humble elder access to discourse on the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. If not, a reasonable man will be forced to do unreasonable things with all the love, hate, vitriol, and pseudo-scholarship of your ex-uncle-in-law.
Gerrit That's a great reference. That is a great reference. Oh, boy.
Richard This is about getting me the Google Drive Elder Hunt. Well, Elder Hunt, I have sent it to you, and as well as uploaded 14 additional episodes. So, you know, the world is your oyster, and help yourself, you know, get to it. It's very good. Thank you for the kind email. This next email comes to us from not even close to being Dr. Lindsay. And it's now the subject, Missive from Dissertation Hell, which is very good.
Gerrit Yeah. By the way, Eight rings below the last one in Dante's.
Richard Richard, I hope by now that your dissertation Virgil has found you, grabbed hold of you, and dragged you straight through dissertation, defense, purgatory, and right into PhD paradise. And if you're currently winding your way through purgatory, my deepest condolences. At least now you've discovered I'm in a Catholic universe, or I'm in a Catholic universe and not a Calvinist one. So I'll order some masses to be sung for your soul, and will beg Gerrit to put your show's filthy lucre to better use and buy indulgences on your behalf right after I finish this next chapter of my dissertation anyway.
Gerrit She doesn't tell us what the dissertation's on. We just have to assume that it's terrible. You know, how hard it is, because it's a dissertation. So regardless of the topic.
Richard Yes. Now, it is a woman for sure. I know men named Lindsay. We don't know. Man or woman Lindsay, soon to be doctor. They go on. I also appreciated Gerrit's recent comments, likening doing a PhD to a nightmare on a runaway train heading off a cliff. I myself would personally alter that to a nightmare on a runaway train heading off a cliff in a blizzard. There's a couple of funny things, but I wanted to kind of skip ahead here just a little bit. Anyway, in all seriousness, thanks again to both of you for all of your continued work on the podcast, despite all of the other demands on your time. Happy grading season, Gerrit. It's been life-changing and I kick myself for not discovering it sooner, especially looking forward to next month, when we start the Doctrine and Covenants.
Richard I teach Sunday school for my 12 to 14-year-olds in my ward, and I'm hoping to help build up their spiritual immune system to attacks on and present this concern about church history. For 12 and 14-year-olds, really recommend that you start with the nature of God. That's a recommendation from a podcast standpoint. We think that will be a really valuable.
Gerrit Right at the very beginning of class.
Richard BNC 93, King Follett.
Gerrit It's hard to make a big point about what we believe differently about God when they don't know what anyone else believes about God. So, I mean, maybe it's not that bad if you give it a little bit of a lead up.
Richard That's pretty funny.
Gerrit Let's see.
Richard Oh, I lost my place here. I am, et cetera, et cetera. That grad student in the Midwest who finally accepted her, oh, there it is. It is a woman. There you go. Finally accepted her dissertation proposal, makes a better monograph and is gleefully cutting corners in the meantime.
Gerrit That's awesome.
Richard So, it's very, very, very funny.
Gerrit Best of luck to you, Lindsay. We have now, I can say now we've both been there and we've gotten to that mountaintop and there is a valley down below. I mean, it's a valley filled with difficulty in finding work and being able to put the dissertation to use, but a valley nonetheless.
Richard Yes, it's quite, quite good. We receive many emails, many WhatsApp messages, many texts from many wonderful and kind people to which I'm very grateful. And I certainly don't want to make this episode all about me, Gerrit. So, let's go on with talking about some of the charity work that I do.
Gerrit Yeah, let's do that. Now, so you just got back from, you just got back from Argentina very recently. So, for folks who are maybe tuning in for the first time, maybe they just got called to the Pennsylvania Mission, so they haven't heard everything before. Why don't you briefly recap what it is that your charity did, and then we can talk about some of those experiences.
Richard Yeah, it really was next level. In fact, there were hundreds of people that, I mean, I'm obviously was kidding about work that I do. Obviously, I was being facetious there, but hundreds of people participated in either the organization of it, or the financial support of it to make this happen. So, I was very much kidding. That joke will likely make my wife irritated. So, I just want to get that on the record. But so, essentially, Gerrit, what it is is that about 10 years ago, I had a neighbor, Carlos Tipiani, who's from Peru, and he heard Elder, now President Hollins talk about 10 years ago, are we not all beggars? And when he heard that talk, he was so moved that he said that he had to do something for the people of Peru where he's from.
Richard And so he has been doing charity work in Peru for over 10 years, and is an incredible example to me and everyone that knows him of Christlike service. Well, one of the things that he did is he helped people from a pretty remote jungle part of Peru get to the temple, many of them who had never been to the temple before. In fact, he helped over 550 people be able to get to the temple. Wow. And I was so moved by this, as was my wife, that we took a trip to Peru in April of this year, and we said we wanted to try to do something similar. And with the help of many, many people, we were able to do something like that, and it was incredible. And it was, you know, when you do any type of charity work, especially humanitarian work in places that are third world countries, relating to food or shelter or clothing or something like that, it can feel pretty overwhelming.
Richard You're doing wonderful things, but then when you leave, you have a, at least I have, had a tremendous sense of sorrow and sadness because they're going to be hungry tomorrow. And so the feeling that we had in Peru was one that I, that didn't feel like that at all. It was nothing but just the joy and the spirit that you feel connected to the temple. So when we got home from that experience, it was an incredible experience, and we worked with some incredible people to set up an organization called Sweetwater Rescue. And we did an episode about Sweetwater Rescue where you gave some great additional context to that story that President Hinckley shared in general conference several years ago about some of the boys that go and help. One of my favorite parts of the thing that you shared was Brigham Young in general conference saying this is your religion, right? Like this, all of the things that we confess, you going out and getting those people on the planes and bringing them in, that's your religion.
Richard That's the test of the real faith, real belief in what it is that we're talking about is the action to do those things for our brothers and sisters. So, set up that organization and we had some folks down in Argentina that we, through a series of what can only be miracles, were connected to and were able to help a hundred Saints from Rio Gallegos, because in Argentina, it's not the LL isn't ya, it's ya.
Gerrit It's not Gallegos.
Richard It's not Gallegos, it's Gallegos. Kind of like she isn't ella, it's eja. So, they were very kind.
Gerrit Now, I bet Jobless Rob could probably-
Richard Oh yeah, Jobless Rob, absolutely. Jobless Rob, by the way, friend of ours, he says he works, but I've never seen him not at Gerrit's house playing video games or just hanging out. He's brought up to me, he's like, well, why are you also here? That's a fair point.
Gerrit It's true that every time you find, you catch him hanging out, you're also here. So that-
Richard Yeah, it's fair. But anyway-
Gerrit It's like saying, you know, Gerrit had his eyes open during the prayer.
Richard How'd you know?
Gerrit How'd you know? I recorded it on my phone. See, now you have a new answer. With smartphones, you can start recording people's faces during the prayer while your eyes are closed. It really, I think kids need to step their game up.
Richard It's true. So anyway, a hundred people came and we worked with the mission president over that area, area president over that area. They made the area presidency aware of it. The district president, President Roggero, made all of the things happen. And then we spent a week with the saints in the Buenos Aires temple. It was incredible. And one of the families that were very important in making this whole thing go, and it came down, were the ports. And one of the things, he was talking with one of the people that was there, and asking them, it's like, what can I compare this experience to? Because we all had a difficult time trying to explain what it felt like. And one of the people that was there, Cora, talked about how it felt like being on a mission.
Richard That like, that's what it felt like. And now she served a mission in Mexico City, by the way. I think her experience and our experience, Gerrit, was a little different. So, when I heard that, I said, yeah, it does actually feel like being on a mission. About 30 of the days, about 700 of the days, not so much. But for an entire week, it felt like the best day on your mission for an entire week. It was the most incredible thing ever. And so here, we wanted to share a couple of experiences. Talk about, you know, miracles, generally, relating to Joseph Smith and some of the things that happened with him. And then we recorded an interview that Gerrit and I had with President Roggero that we wanted to... And President Roggero is the......is the district president for the Rio Gallegos district.
Richard And we wanted to play that clip as well.
Gerrit Well, I think that the the happenstance that we see in... Sometimes when we're reading the past, you know, there are things that are just so happened to happen at the exact right time that people end up, you know, meeting one another that they end up they end up making connections that end up being very, very important. When we look at Latter-day Saint history, there are, there are different things that that just so happened to be the case that can easily be dismissed by people who, you know, don't have any faith as, well, that's just coincidence. That is very coincidental that that happened. But it's, it's also the reality that that we know that God has a plan for this world and He has a plan for this church. And He certainly has a plan of salvation for all of us. And we came to this world to participate in that plan, to be a part of our own exaltation, to be a part of becoming like our Heavenly Father.
Gerrit I know that we've talked about it before, but some of the examples of where God is behind the scenes, moving in such ways that the people involved don't really know. We could go back to a discussion of Joseph Smith when he was just a young boy, and he had this terrible festering fever sore in his leg that infected the bone. Now, you don't have to read a whole lot of 19th century histories to know that whatever they're about to do to Joseph Smith to quote unquote heal his leg is far more likely to kill him than it is to help him. I mean, it is a sad statement, but also a true one that as horrific as amputation is, when people were shot in the arm or compound fracture in their leg, as horrific as amputation sounds to us, it's actually, given what else they would do, it's actually one of the most medically reasonable things to do today in a means of trying to save someone's life, because they don't know what even causes disease.
Gerrit They don't know what causes infection. They don't know what bacteria is. They don't know what viruses are. They don't know anything about modern medical science that we know today. Nothing. Not even the basic building blocks. I mean, they get it that if you lose too much blood, you die. They understand that. Also, they believe most disease is caused by you having too much blood and they will bleed you in order to get that blood out of you.
Richard It is a fine line.
Gerrit Yeah. You're walking the sword's edge. You're over Niagara Falls with the balance being there, trying to not fall. If he has too much blood, he's going to be sick. If we take too much blood out, he's dead. So you've got to really pick your physician who knows how to bleed you, right? So, I mean, they do have some ability to do topical things. They can splint up an arm and they do drain abscesses and things like that, which is what happens to Joseph. But because they don't really know what causes disease, all they know is what the effects of the disease are. It is a pretty standard practice that when someone has any kind of a bone infection, well, they're not going to be prescribing any antibiotics to them because those don't exist.
Gerrit And they won't exist for, at this point, for over another 100 years. And so often, if an infection does not clear up on its own, the only recourse that is left to doctors or to patients is amputation of the infected area. And then cauterizing of the wound, you know, with the hope that that's the end of it. Well, in Joseph's case, he's in agony, suffering with this malady in his leg. This is the point where Lucy Mack makes a very, she makes a very tender observation about the bond between Hyrum and Joseph Smith. Because as Joseph, little Joseph is writhing in agony with this horrific pain in his leg, with no painkillers, no actual medical treatment that could in any way alleviate the pain, the only thing that provided even a modicum of pain relief was putting pressure on the infected area and hour after hour, day after day, Hyrum sat by his little brother's bed and put pressure on Joseph's leg to in some way try to alleviate in the smallest degree some of the horrific pain his brother was in.
Gerrit Now when things don't get any better, and Lucy consults the, you know, again, quote unquote, you know, Steve listening is like, don't even call them doctors. You guys are more doctors than they are. But as she called for the physicians, you know, they all essentially, look, they come to the conclusion, look, the bone's infected. What do we know? We don't know what causes infection, but we know it spreads. And if it spreads, your son's going to die. So we've got to amputate the leg. And Lucy desperately doesn't want that to happen, obviously, to her little boy. And after urging the doctors to reconsider, one of the physicians is willing to over... Is willing to do something different than amputation.
Gerrit That doctor is Nathan Smith, no relation. It's going to come as a surprise to you because there's a lot of people named Smith in early America. But the... He happens to be a doctor who has pioneered a procedure in which you cut directly into the bone itself and then remove the infected portions of the bone. I mean, I don't have a good way of describing this. And literally every dentist and literally every doctor listening is throwing their phone across the room in disgusted anger, probably filling out papers to go to a Pennsylvania mission. Just at this point, I might as well go, there's nothing for me here. But when you go to the dentist and you have decay, you have a cavity, they can see that on an x-ray.
Gerrit And the dentist doesn't take out your whole tooth, unless there's, you know, there's no saving it. He drills away the infected portion or the decayed portion and then fills it back up. That's probably the worst description ever made of this medical procedure, but I'm trying to find something relatable. The idea being, if we cut out the actual part of the bone that's infected, then tissue may regrow in its place and then the infection won't spread. But Nathan Smith is someone who actually pioneered this practice himself. More than a decade earlier, he's the one who starts giving this idea that this might be a way to remove infection. Again, they don't have any idea what constitutes infection.
Gerrit And he just so happens to be living only a few miles away from where the Smith family live at that time in Vermont. In fact, Nathan Smith is the founder of what will become Dartmouth Medical College. And so there's actually things honoring Nathan Smith for his saving of Joseph Smith at Dartmouth Medical College because he's their founder and also has this connection to another famous person in America. And he undertakes this risky operation. You know, we're totally removed nine pieces of infected bone and after the surgery, because you're essentially breaking bone. There are 14 other fragments that work their way out during the healing process. It sounds horrific. And as you all know, without any type of anesthesia, they try to get Joseph to take whiskey or wine or something, and he won't.
Gerrit And instead, Joseph Senior holds him during this horrible surgery. The cries of Joseph during the surgery are so much that Lucy will multiple times break into the room, even though they keep telling her to stay out. And Joseph keeps telling her to stay out. But it is such a powerful thing to think about the fact that the Smiths moved around a lot as they had various economic reverses and failures. And at the same time, God, on the other hand, was working Dr. Nathan Smith along the way, thinking about this kind of operation, this risky operation. In fact, many doctors would have rejected his treatment. That's far too risky. You've got to just, you know, lop the leg off and be done with it.
Gerrit And instead, he pioneers this in opposition to the two, to others who would have been naysayers. And then he just so happens to be living next to the Smiths and just so happens to be the physician who's consulted at the time that they're trying to make this decision. Someone can say that that's a coincidence, but for people of faith, it's not really a coincidence because God knew long before Joseph had his, his leg become infected. God knew that Joseph was going to need this operation. And I don't know what level of inspiration he gave to Dr. Nathan Smith or how he moved the pieces on the chessboard of life to the point where they were within proximity of one another. But he did it. And Joseph's recovery really is nothing short of a miracle, given the medical age that he was in.
Gerrit How might the restoration have been different? Had the leg been amputated? Well, first of all, amputation is no guarantee either. Often the amputations themselves become infected, and people die from that. But we do know that God, though Joseph went through this horrible, agonizing pain, had prepared a way for Joseph to still keep his leg and maintain his health.
Richard Gerrit, there were so many experiences from the wonderful people from Rio Gallegos that shared that had similar coincidences, quote, unquote. And it was quite miraculous. There was one particular family, Vanessa and Augustina. So the timing also here is interesting. So, you know, how far do we want to go back to begin to look at the hand of the Lord moving things in a direction? So President Roggero asked for me to give, so we kind of had a couple of different fireside testimony meetings. We had two different groups because the group was so large that we had to kind of cycle them through so that they'd have a place to stay at the hotel near the Buenos Aires temple that the church runs there.
Richard So we had a couple of these different things. And so in the last one, on the Thursday evening, President Roggero asked for me to speak. And he told me that I have five minutes. He's familiar with my work and knows that he needed to put a time limit on that. So he gave me five minutes. I said, President, I don't think I can say everything I want to say in five minutes. Can I have six or seven minutes? And he said, yes, you can have seven minutes. And then I took 25 minutes. But in fairness, Gerrit, everything I said had to be translated. So really, I only took 12 and a half minutes.
Gerrit I thought you were going to say an hour, but okay.
Richard Yeah. People that know me are like, wow, that's the shortest you've ever given anything. But one particular family, I'll give you an example. So how, like I said, do we want to go back 51 years ago to when Carlos was born? Do we want to go back 41 years ago when Carlos and his family moved from Peru to New Jersey, and they run into missionaries and are baptized? How far back do we want to go to the 10 years ago where President Holland gave that talk that caused the spirit to touch Carlos in a way that created this action? Well, we can at least go back to this year and say that where a group of folks go to Peru and do this, put together this temple trip, and then the experience is so incredible that a bunch of people get together and say, we need to set up an organization that helps to facilitate this, that creates the logistical support and connection to return missionaries from places, to be able to support people being able to get to the temple in response to President Nelson's April conference address.
Richard Well, it is roughly two weeks after the decision to begin this organization that missionaries run into Vanessa and Augustina. So, two weeks prior to missionaries running into these two people, a mother and a daughter, a decision is made to create this organization. And a week before, roughly a week before the missionaries run into them, actually, excuse me, a week after the missionaries run into them, Karen reaches out to President Roggero to say, hey, we have $10,000. We'd like to help you get people. This is after they, by the way, as branches have decided to consecrate $0.10 per week for two years to help some, a couple people eventually get to the temple, right? So, Vanessa and Augustina, the plan is in place to send people to the temple that wouldn't have the ability to go otherwise.
Richard Now, the Temple Patron Fund the church has is for ceilings and is for own endowments, but it's managed differently in every area and it doesn't allow for baptisms, right? That's not something that it connects to. And so, Vanessa and Augustina are taught the gospel and they join the church. I believe that they join the church in either late August or early September. Well, two weeks after they join the church, their father and grandfather passes away. And he is a lion of a man that is loved by the entire family. He doesn't join the church, but the family is devastated by his passing. And I can't remember, I believe it was Vanessa, has a dream.
Richard And in the dream, she sees things that she's not familiar with. And a week later, the missionaries come over, and they show her a video about the apostles in the Rome temple. And when we get to the baptistry, she asks them to pause the video and asks, what's that? And they explain to her that this is a baptismal font in the temple, and this is where we perform baptisms for the dead, for those that have not had an opportunity to have the gospel in this life. And she said, that's similar to the thing that I saw in my dream. And then roughly a week after that, experience with the missionaries, President Roggero or their branch president, reaches out to them and says, hey, we have received additional funds and we want you to come to the temple in Buenos Aires, so that they could do work for their grandfather that just died a couple of weeks prior.
Richard You have a circumstance where the Lord loves these two women so much that he put into motion things, because he knew that their father and grandfather was gonna pass away, and he knew that they would be devastated by it. He knew that they didn't know anything about baptism for the dead, and they certainly didn't know what a baptismal faun in a temple looks like. But they had these series of experiences, and much like the Dr. Smith at Dartmouth, the Lord put into motion things that can only be described as a miracle. When we just take a second and step back and say, before the missionaries even spoke to them, the Lord began to put in place a plan to help them to do the work for their recently departed family members and an additional family, whatever.
Richard Now, I thought the rule was a year. I don't know. They did the name. So who am I to judge? Hey, I'm not-
Gerrit That's another podcast.
Richard Look, that's not my problem. I'm not in charge. I have no ecclesiastical authority whatsoever. But it was an incredible experience and as they shared that. And if I could, Gerrit, then share one other thing. Well, I've got actually several things here to share. So as that story is shared in one of the testimony meetings, so we didn't have a room. We didn't have a place where we could go to share testimonies. And so we did it kind of in the cafeteria area. And while that and other miraculous experiences, because many of the people that came had very similar and incredible experiences, it was, I mean, I haven't been to FSY, right? But I imagine, I've been on a mission, and like I said, it felt like the best day of your mission every day. It was the greatest thing ever.
Richard And there was a gentleman that was there on Thursday. He was in the cafeteria. And he was also, he had come up to go to the temple. Now, President Roggero shared this experience with me later, because he came up to President Roggero after and shared his feelings. He wasn't part of our group. He was with some other group and just had come to the temple that day. And he had come to the temple because he was experiencing a faith crisis. And he wanted to go to the temple and try and seek answers from God. And he went through the temple and did some temple work, and then came in and was eating, and was there during the testimony meetings that were being, or during the testimony and talks that were given. And as he heard of the miraculous experience of this and many of the other people that were there, he said that he felt the way that he did when he had joined the church.
Richard He felt that same spirit testifying. It's the Moroni have the day of miracles ceased. They have not. They have not. And he said that, he said, you have no idea how incredible the timing of this is. This is the exact thing. That I needed to hear. And again, what are the odds, Gerrit, to your point?
Gerrit It reminds me of Alma chapter five, you know, where when he asked them the question, right? If you have experienced the change of heart and you have felt to sing the song of redeeming love, I would ask, can you feel so now? Right? We all have that powerful spiritual experience, maybe several, but at least one where we have felt close to God, where the Spirit has spoken directly to our soul. And in that moment, we don't have any doubts. In that moment, we know exactly who we are. We know exactly that this is the Kingdom of God on Earth. And so, when you ask that question of the people in Zarahemla, do you feel the same way that you once did? And that's reminded me of the story of this gentleman.
Richard Well, so what was interesting to me about that is I was reminded of, so, you know, we're getting to the end of the Book of Mormon, and in Come Follow Me, and I'm, I'm, I was reminded of what Moroni says in Mormon chapter eight, right? Behold, I, Moroni, do finish the record of my father, Mormon. Behold, I have but few things to write, which things I have been commanded by my father. And verse four, Therefore, I will write and hide up the records in the earth. And, and whither I go, it mattereth not. The Lord, so look, the battle of Cumorah is like 385 AD, and Moroni starts writing up again around 400-ish. And so Moroni is in the wilderness from somewhere between 21 to 36 years.
Gerrit Yeah, he's, he's over three decades. Just, just a wandering.
Richard That's right. And the Lord leads him. Whether I go, it mattereth not. Well, it, it mattered a whole lot. Now, maybe Moroni there means, you know, what happens to me after I bury the plates? It doesn't matter. Or maybe it means, you know, wherever I'm walking around, you know, whatever. But the Lord leads him to the Hill Cumorah. And when Joseph is born, you know, 1395 years after the, well, it's more than that after the fact. But 1395 years later, after Moroni buries the plates, the Smith crops fail again.
Gerrit And their ginseng money is stolen.
Richard Ginseng money is stolen. And the Erie Canal is being built. And go seek your fortune in wheat. And Father Smith goes to Palmyra. So where they're in, in Tonbridge, is about 180 miles from the Hill Cumorah. And Joseph Smith Sr. moves his family about three miles away from the Hill Cumorah.
Gerrit Yeah, and there's a lot of other places that grow wheat in New York.
Richard That's my understanding.
Gerrit Iron, yeah.
Richard But, so the thing, the thing that was, that I found beautiful about that is, sometimes we're the Moroni, and sometimes we're the Joseph Smith. Sometimes we're being led to a thing so that we can be the Moroni to put things in place to help the Joseph Smith. And sometimes somebody else is led a direction, and we're the recipient as the Joseph Smith.
Gerrit And sometimes we're led and we don't even know why we're being led. When Mormon appends Nephi's small plates to the record he's already made, he just says, I'm doing this for a wise purpose in the Lord that I don't know. I mean, God doesn't tell Mormon, hey, you better put these plates in here, because let me tell you about a guy named Martin Harris.
Richard Wait, let me talk about Lucy.
Gerrit Yeah, we'll start with Martin. I'll move to Lucy. He just inspires Mormon to do it, and he does it. And of course, Mormon will, you know, in his spirit world, he will see the eventual ends of those actions, but he actually doesn't know the reason why he doesn't. And I'm sure it was painstaking, and I'm sure it took a long time for him to do, and it was directly striking at the heart of all of the labor he'd already done, because he'd already covered that entire portion in his own book that he'd already written. And he feels inspired to do it, and he does it, and he doesn't even get an explanation for why. And I want to be that kind of a person who is close enough to the Spirit that God can lead me to do things even if I don't know why I'm doing them, and that they end up having positive influences on other people, bringing some kind of peace to somebody, some kind of strength in their testimony, some kind of joy to somebody.
Richard So, Garry, I'll give you another example of this. So, two years prior to President Holland's talk about, are we not all beggars, that kicked off all of this stuff, right? Because again, when's the genesis of it? Is it when President Holland was born? Like, how far back do we want to go to show the hand of the Lord in moving the pieces?
Gerrit When King Benjamin gave the speech.
Richard Yeah, right, right. So, two years before President Holland's speech, so 12 years ago, the Marinda family in Rio Gallegos, Gallegos, they decided as a family, they have a couple of children, and they want to come to the temple to be endowed and to be sealed. And so they start setting money away for the next 11 years to save enough money to come to the temple. In the 11th year, their house burns down, and they have to make a decision on what to do, and they have to use the money that they had set aside to take their family to the temple to build their house that had burned down, and begin again at setting money aside to save to be able to go to the temple.
Richard And then President Roggero receives an email saying, hey, we'd like to have you bring these folks to the temple. And we had the opportunity to be in the ceiling room when the entire family was sealed.
Gerrit It was incredible. Richard, maybe you could recount again just briefly the faith that was exercised by these Argentinian saints before they knew there was any way that the story reminded me of the fact that President Roggero had already exercised faith in trying to follow the teachings of our living prophet, President Nelson, before he knew there was any other way.
Richard Yeah, it's actually, it's the best part. He has a dream when he's called where he sees him with all the youth at the Buenos Aires temple. This is in November of 2023 and he doesn't say anything about it. It's not possible. It's not possible. Right.
Gerrit It would have been as fanciful as you finishing your dissertation, but now.
Richard I would say more so. So after President Nelson's talk in April, in the April General Conference, and all of the other talks about temples in April of 2024, he meets with his district presidents and says, Brother, this is, I believe, May 17th. Brother, we have got to make the temple of focus. What can we do to help make the temple of focus and get people to the temple?
Gerrit And he's saying that to a group of people who know that the temple is essentially a financial impossibility for everyone who's in their various branches.
Richard Right.
Gerrit And so it's 72 hours by bus away.
Richard Right.
Gerrit It's five to seven months of salary per person.
Richard Yeah. And in the case of the Miranda family, 11 years of savings.
Gerrit Yeah, it is. Yeah, there's a temple there. And their ability to get to it is there's no possible way to see how that would happen.
Richard I have about as good a chance as going back in time to see Solomon's Temple as they do going to this one.
Gerrit And so when he's saying this to his branch presidents, he's saying, essentially, I don't know any possible way that this is going to work, but this is what the prophet told us to do. So we're going to do it.
Richard What are we going to do? Making family history a larger part of what they're doing. So if I can't go to the temple, maybe I can do more family history and prepare names. So begin preparing names. So this is, I believe, the 17th of May. Now, one other thing that I don't think I've mentioned here. So the Harrop family, Elder Harrop is serving down in this area. He's actually serving in the same branch as President Roggero is. Well, he has some some very bad health issues and has to come home for a period of time to get those to be fixed. So now, I don't know how close, Gerrit, you are with your son's mission president. Our son's mission presidents have been lovely, but I don't really have a relationship with them, right?
Gerrit Well, frankly, I dread getting a call from him because it means something terrible has happened.
Richard Well, so what kind of occurs is that, what kind of occurs here is that because of the nature of the health issue that Elder Harrop has and him having to go home for several months, which was an incredible trial and challenge to the Harrops, as you can imagine, right? The Harrop family develops an incredible relationship with the mission president to where they are, they actually have a very close relationship. Because of the closeness of that relationship, they reach out to him in trying to find out if he knows of a district or an area that could benefit from any of these temple funds. Well, the mission president has just been made aware, because Elder Harrop is now serving in this area, that of the commitment that they've had that they're going to try and set aside 10 cents a week for the next several years for a handful of people to maybe go in a couple of years.
Richard Because of the relationship Elder Harrop has, because of the relationship they have with the mission president and the Harrop family does, they're made aware of this and send an email to President Roggero that rather than sending a couple of people in a couple of years, we can send everybody now. President Roggero, it's a test of his faith. And this is actually, I think it's a beautiful analogy here as it relates to our willingness to sacrifice and then the Lord being there to bless us. Sometimes monetarily, sometimes spiritually, many times not monetarily, by the way. Right? Like this was an incredible miracle on many levels, but it doesn't always work like this. But in this case, it did, and it was incredible. And it reminds me a little bit, actually, of Abraham and Isaac, right? God never intended for Abraham to kill Isaac, but he wanted to test his willingness to sacrifice.
Richard One thing, just, so President, there were a lot of people that were in the temple, and Argentina is a funny place, especially to drive around in. I got a rental car. There are more suggestions than laws as it relates to anything on the road, certainly.
Gerrit Just like Utah.
Richard Yeah, for sure. But apparently, one thing that they really care about is the fire codes in the temple, not having more than a certain number of people. There's lots of people from the district that are there for the ceiling of the Miranda family. All of the people that came from the States and that were affiliated with the podcast that came, we were invited to go, but there were too many people. We said, okay, well, look, we're not going to take a spot of someone from the district, so we'll go set up for dinner and whatever. And so we weren't going to go to the ceiling because a worker at the temple said, I'm sorry, you can't, right? So we're putting our shoes back on to head over to start setting up for dinner. And President Roggero was walking with his wife, to by the way, at, just so happened, by the way, that a couple of days earlier, while we were there, the missionary that baptized Sister Roggero happened to be at the Buenos Aires Temple, 20 years ago.
Gerrit Wow.
Richard And it was, speaking about Alma the Younger and the Sons of Mosiah meeting again, right? It was, it was beautiful. So, they're, they're walking to the ceiling room and President Roggero stops. And he tells his wife, he says, Becky needs to be here. Which is your wife? Which is my wife. Becky needs to be here. And Sister Roggero says, oh, I agree, but, but there's no room in the, and President Roggero says that the Becky, she needs to have my spot. And Sister Roggero says, what are you talking about? You're the district president. You have to be there. And he says, no, Becky has to have my spot. When, when we were having the discussion back in May about doing this, we quickly found out that $10,000 was but a drop in the bucket of what it would cost to send everybody to go given the cost for how far away they were and to fly and everything.
Richard And so, actually, as a mild aside, I know we're well out of time, but as a mild aside, a couple of weeks before, I had had dinner with my wife and a couple of other people. And I talked about, hey, setting up this organization that does this. And for about two hours, I was scolded that we can't pay for this. We have to set up a proper process and whatever. We don't have enough money. We can't do this.
Gerrit And the podcast isn't really pulling through.
Richard Yeah, right. The filthy lucre that we want to go through things.
Gerrit It's hard to glut yourself.
Richard Yeah, right. I have a great job, but I'm not rich by any sense. So I've been scolded for two hours. You can't over promise. You can't pay for stuff. You can't do that. I'm like, all right, all right, all right, all right. So in that meeting, when we find out the $10,000, is only going to get about 20 or 25 people there. And he tells us about the dream that he had and everybody's just weeping on the call. My wife, who was on mute the entire time, comes off mute and says, President Roggero, we're going to get everybody there. And then I went on mute and I turned to her and said, what the heck are you talking about? That's too much money. There's no way.
Gerrit You're doing yourself for the podcast.
Richard There's no way we're going to be able to come up with that much money. There's no way. She's like, we're going to second mortgage if we have to. I said, no, we will not. We will not do that. I don't know what you're talking about. It's not going to happen. You're nuts. You've completely over-promised. Anyway, so President Roggero didn't know that part, by the way, the conversation that I had. But what he did here is Becky say, President, we're going to get everybody to there. And prior to her saying that, he had doubt in his mind as well as, I don't know how we're going to make this work. And he said that when Becky said that, that he was overcome with the love of our Heavenly Father and with a sure knowledge. That it was gonna happen. And so the reason that he was turning around so that Becky could have his spot was that it was her faith that got everybody there.
Richard And it was an interesting and incredible sacrifice. So he makes the decision, and he turns around, and he starts walking back. He doesn't take more than three steps before he sees all of us coming his way. Because a member of the Temple Presidency said, they all need to go. He didn't know that a member of the Temple Presidency said that. He just was willing to sacrifice. And then like Abraham didn't have to. And we were all able to witness what was the absolute highlight of the entire trip as a family was sealed together.
Gerrit I want to thank all of the listeners to the podcast who made all of that possible. Those members in a place that you might not ever go to, you probably didn't serve your mission in Argentina, and that you'll never meet had their lives changed because people were willing to contribute. And not just one person, dozens and dozens of people were able to give whatever they felt like they could. And we were able to get families and youth and people together in a large group to experience going to the temple. And it was very, it's very humbling to me, I didn't go on the trip, but it's very humbling to me that there are such good people that are so desperate to bring to pass the unfolding of the kingdom of God as promised by the Lord and as reiterated by our prophet, President Nelson, that they were willing to make whatever their sacrifice was to help get these families, these youth.
Gerrit I think you told me there was one youth that was baptized how many times?
Richard Yeah, well, so, yeah, we, they did over 3000 names in a week. And he, TT was his nickname, who wasn't preparing to go on a mission and is now preparing to go on a mission. And he did, I think somewhere around 500 himself, baptism.
Gerrit He did 500 baptisms.
Richard He was just straight Duncan Fools. It was incredible.
Gerrit Oh, we could obviously talk more about this, but we kind of run out of time. I know that not everyone is in the same place spiritually. And we might just as well ask the question of why did God not intervene to help me in this crisis that I have? Then when we see where God's hand has intervened, I want you to trust and know that your Heavenly Father loves you, just like he loved those people in Argentina and prepared a way for them as they demonstrated their faith. I know that we don't always get the blessings that we ask for, but your Heavenly Father loves you. He knows you and he knows about you, and he will make all things right in the end. I'm grateful for everyone's faith who contributed. Grateful for the faith of these incredible saints who are better than I'll ever be.
Gerrit I'm grateful for Richard and for he and others that sacrificed for this. And I'm grateful to my Heavenly Father and to the Lord Jesus Christ for this gospel. Thank you so much for joining us. And we will talk to you again next week.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.

Quote board

Make a share card from any line

Yeah, I noticed that even when you were getting gas, you demanded that the convenience store worker refer to you as Doctor rather than Bud.

GerritBanter

She said, okay, well, how much would it cost? This much. Wow, that's a lot. But how much more will you make when you get it? Oh, oh no, I'll make much, much less. All right, let's do it.

RichardBanter

If you want us to know what you're talking about, Elder Hunt, you need to talk about Wonder Bread bags wrapped around our feet with rubber bands.

GerritBanter

But in fairness, Gerrit, everything I said had to be translated. So really, I only took 12 and a half minutes.

RichardBanter

Someone can say that that's a coincidence, but for people of faith, it's not really a coincidence because God knew long before Joseph had his, his leg become infected.

GerritInsight

But, so the thing, the thing that was, that I found beautiful about that is, sometimes we're the Moroni, and sometimes we're the Joseph Smith.

RichardInsight

And I want to be that kind of a person who is close enough to the Spirit that God can lead me to do things even if I don't know why I'm doing them

GerritInsight

I know that we don't always get the blessings that we ask for, but your Heavenly Father loves you.

GerritInsight

More from this episode

Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.

Claim check

What critics say, and what the episode found
The day of miracles has ceased; God doesn't arrange things behind the scenes today.
Amputation was simply cruel 19th-century medicine.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.

Take it to class

Ready to copy into a lesson or a text

God often moves the pieces long before we know why; Dr. Nathan Smith, who pioneered the surgery that saved Joseph's leg, happened to live a few miles from the Smith family.

Sometimes we're the Moroni, led somewhere so we can prepare the way for someone else, and sometimes we're the Joseph Smith who receives what others prepared.

Faith often comes before the means: President Roggero asked his branches to make the temple a focus when it was financially impossible, and the Lord opened the way.

We don't always get the blessings we ask for, but Heavenly Father knows us and will make all things right in the end.

Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.

Banter bin

The running jokes, for people who skip ahead
Doctor inflationRichard is finally Dr. LeDuc, demands 'Doctor' instead of 'Bud' at the gas station, and gets a new spliced-in intro (0:40, 1:04, 1:29).
Not speaking to GerritRichard hasn't spoken to Gerrit off-mic in four and a half years for recommending the PhD; they communicate through Becky like an 18th-century marriage (3:42, 3:50, 4:02).
A Christmas CarolRichard sends his family Scrooge's apology and offers time with him as the real gift; no prize goose (4:12, 5:26).
The only true missionIf an email doesn't say where it's from, assume Pittsburgh, or Elder Roman in Tucson (8:20, 8:44, 9:23).
The crack research staffNow led by an actual doctor instead of an ABD demanding green jelly beans; they look up Cole Haans (7:05, 10:42, 11:33).
Idaho shoesWonder Bread bags with rubber bands, Pro Wings and Jon Voight shoes (10:47, 11:18).
Bleeding the patientToo much blood and you're sick, too little and you're dead: walking over Niagara Falls (27:23, 27:53).
Seven minutes means twenty-fivePresident Roggero gave Richard five minutes, then seven; he took 25, but half was translation (38:42, 39:32).
Jobless RobAlways at Gerrit's house playing video games, but then so is Richard (21:40, 21:59).
Filthy lucreThe podcast 'isn't really pulling through' for the temple trip (1:04:54).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

Your question could be next week’s episode
Questions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
General ConferenceGeneral Conference talks that cite a scripture read in this episode.

In General Conference

Talks from the latest General Conference that cite a scripture this episode reads or names on air
October 2026 General Conference · cites D&C 93I Am a Child of GodElder Hutch U. FaleElder Fale teaches that every person is a beloved child of heavenly parents, illustrating God's unearned love by showing his children their baby pictures: they did nothing to earn their parents' love and can do nothing to lose it.

Summaries, themes and lessons for every talk are on What Did They Say?

Go deeperWhere to read more.

Go deeper

Deep dives the episode points toward
Dr. Nathan Smith, his bone surgery, and the full account of Joseph's leg operation in Lucy Mack Smith's history (29:01, 31:55).
Jeffrey R. Holland's 'Are We Not All Beggars?' and the charity work it inspired (17:30).
Moroni's decades of wandering and the path that led him, and later the Smith family, to the Hill Cumorah (49:30).
Mormon including the small plates 'for a wise purpose' and how it saved the Book of Mormon after the 116 pages were lost (52:22).
SOT Litner · S4E50.