Oliver Cowdery Attempts to Translate

Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Professor Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise and humor.

Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend crawling over shards of glass, inevitably towards the PhD, Richard LeDuc. Hello, Gerrit. Oh, Professor Richard LeDuc.

Richard Yes, well, no, I've been fired.

Gerrit No, no, he's still teaching. They haven't found out that he does the podcast yet.

Richard That's true. At the University of Utah, that'll be grounds for dismissal immediately.

Gerrit Yeah, well, just being a Mormon there.

Richard Well, Gerrit, it's a pleasure to be with you here today. We've got a lot of things to talk about, very exciting things as we wind down on the five-parter on Witnesses of the Book of Mormon.

Gerrit We're not even close to being done. Like, we keep interjecting other things and making it so we'll never finish.

Richard It's true, we did receive an email that talks a little bit about Oliver Cowdery translation that we're gonna, you know, kind of squeeze in.

Gerrit All we do is tangents.

Richard That's true.

Gerrit The first thing I'd like to talk about is how angry I am at Richard's school, not just for not giving him a PhD yet, but for beating BYU.

Richard That's true.

Gerrit The first thing I'd like to talk about is how angry I am at Richard's school, not just for not giving him a PhD yet, but for beating BYU.

Richard Go Pokes.

Gerrit What a terrible, terrible game that was.

Richard Go Pokes.

Gerrit What a terrible, terrible game that was.

Richard It was not ideal. It likely will impact BYU's.

Gerrit Oh yeah, they dropped from a five seed to like, they're probably in a play-in game now. They're probably a 16 seed and they're playing Longmont or something like that.

Richard Seems like Florida State is always a perpetual play-in team. Then we're Clemson, always. It seems always.

Gerrit I just hope we can steer clear of Michigan State, because you know, no matter what, they beat everyone in the tournament.

Richard Yeah, he's gonna have them ready to go. He's gonna have them ready to play. Well, so speaking of ready to play, Gerrit, we do have the live audience recording that's gonna be coming up on March 16th. It's very exciting. We were working on that today. You were very frustrated because it didn't save after you typed several funny things.

Gerrit Well, maybe that was-

Richard Moderate humor.

Gerrit It was-

Richard It was middling.

Gerrit Yeah, it was passable. And we were trying to create our site for the tickets and it twice crashed and didn't save anything that we had.

Richard It was middling.

Gerrit Yeah, it was passable. And we were trying to create our site for the tickets and it twice crashed and didn't save anything that we had.

Richard Yes, he was very frustrated. And in the recording studio, it is 5,000 degrees.

Gerrit And yet somehow Angie and Becky still think that it's quote unquote, giant air quotes, cold in here.

Richard They're in sweaters, they're in shawls, they're in blankets.

Gerrit If you were to see a picture of this recording studio, so-called, you would assume that we were in Siberia and there was no furnace and it was January 2nd.

Richard Yeah, yeah. Becky mouthed off to Putin and now here she is.

Gerrit That's the, you know, it's the Gulag or also the Standard of Truth recording studio.

Richard So the, we encourage everyone to go and sign up for the newsletter. The details for the tickets and the event will be in the newsletter. That newsletter will be coming out here in the next-

Gerrit Little while.

Richard Little while, the next week or two.

Gerrit Little while.

Richard Little while, the next week or two.

Gerrit Anything that we can do to put it off.

Richard It's true, it'll be coming out in the next week or two with the event scheduled for March 16th.

Gerrit So if you haven't signed up for the newsletter, in the podcast description, there's a link to sign up for the newsletter. So make sure you click that and sign up. We all know that this event's gonna sell out the moment the tickets hit the street. I mean, Taylor Swift got nothing on this.

Richard Yeah, no, it's gonna go quick.

Gerrit We already know, we have a friend in Leighton who, I mean, Tammy's already selling-

Richard She's got a bus. Yeah, she's got a party bus. She's acquisition to Wendover Bus, and she's bringing it down to Orem.

Gerrit Yep, and there's gonna be only slightly less gambling at this venue than the Wendover Buses used to be.

Richard Slightly less.

Gerrit So anyway, we'd love to have everybody get together. There are some people who sound excited about it. It's the worst thing that's ever happened to me in my life.

Richard Slightly less.

Gerrit So anyway, we'd love to have everybody get together. There are some people who sound excited about it. It's the worst thing that's ever happened to me in my life.

Richard It's gonna be a lot of fun. We hope that everybody comes. We'll have fun things that we'll do to make fun of Gerrit.

Gerrit It's the most embarrassing thing in the world to do this.

Richard We'll have some giveaways. We'll have Gerrit, he's been working on a juggling routine. We're very excited.

Gerrit I am a man of many talents. Actually, I'm a man of zero talents. Love you about that.

Richard So jumping into the Phebe Draper mailbag, hopefully we can get through that in the next 45 minutes, leaving about seven to eight minutes for Witnesses of the Book of Mormon part five.

Gerrit It'll be next episode.

Richard As a person with the first name of Doctor, I can tell you it's not all it's cracked up to be.

Gerrit Like Dr. Velasquez Hurlbut?

Richard I'm a dentist. As such, I'm not classified as a real doctor. When introduced as doctor, people ask if I enjoy being a doctor. I have to clarify that I'm not that kind of doctor. I can only imagine the amount of questions you will receive on the topic. I can't wait. I can't wait to be on a plane, have somebody have some cardiac event.

Gerrit Have them say, is there a doctor on board?

Richard Then have me raise my hand.

Gerrit Then they'll say, what are you trained in? The referral theory of business practices.

Richard I want to talk brokerage theory. I want to talk prospect theory. One of the things that there's a great Nate Bargatze Saturday Night Live clip about this standing up on the airplane as a doctor. Maybe we'll put the link into the, it's a pretty funny clip.

Gerrit That's funny.

Richard Anyway, my question for Dr. Dirkmaat is about the church in Pittsburgh. I went to school in Pittsburgh and attended the Pittsburgh second ward. Ghost dealers? Yeah, ghost dealers. The locals claim that it is the oldest ward of the church east of the Mississippi, and that Sidney Rigdon founded it. I did think it unusual that the oldest ward was designated the second ward.

Gerrit So first of all, doctor.

Richard That's a fair point.

Gerrit First of all, doctor, you've hit on a very key important piece of evidence. This is the oldest continuous ward in Arizona. What is it? The Phoenix 300th ward?

Richard Any light and knowledge you could shed on the subject would be appreciated. I visited your website to contact you and was pleasantly surprised by it. But I did find it amusing that you have to navigate to the fifth tab to see any mention of Richard, but I understand. The lawyers have instructed us that that's the best way to do it.

Gerrit We can't just have an ABD front and center. What do you want people to do? We can't just have people coming, you know what, I'm looking for real, looking for real truth and then they just see like ABD. Well, this guy didn't even try.

Richard Technically, I'm not even ABD yet.

Gerrit Oh, really?

Richard I haven't defended the proposal yet.

Gerrit Okay. Almost ABD. We're going to start referring to him as Professor Richard LeDuc, almost ABD.

Richard That's true. Well, so, so Gerrit, any, any light that you can shed on the ward, the Pittsburgh Second Ward being the oldest ward of the church, east of the Mississippi?

Gerrit I mean, so there's some problems with that, right? First of all, I don't know what the clarification of east of the Mississippi would have to do with anything, given the fact that if Sidney Rigdon set it up, it would have to be prior to 1844 when he's excommunicated. We don't leave the country until 1846. So, if there was a ward west of the Mississippi in 1830, that would come as a surprise, right? Actually, one of the, I mean, I appreciate your email and hope to get some free dental work, but one of the things that I think is a little bit interesting when you study Latter-day Saint history is that we assume that the organization of the church is very similar to the way it is today.

Gerrit And that's a normal assumption to have. It's nothing weird about that at all. You should always assume that the way things are is the way that they've been until you find out something different. Probably the biggest difference in local organization of the church between then and now is that for nearly the entirety of Joseph Smith's life, wards don't exist. They are not the unit that are measured. Are there bishops? Well, there aren't bishops when the church is first founded. We have a whole podcast on that, I think, maybe several on that.

Richard I think a Neil K. Whitney 19 parter.

Gerrit Yeah, it's a... No, it's Edward Patridge. Patridge, yeah. It's Edward Patridge first. Edward Patridge, gonna make you a bishop in the church? Edward Patridge. The early church isn't even organized surrounding bishops and ecclesiastical geographic locations. So in the early church, all you're really going to ever see is branches of the church. Now today we use the word branch to mean, oh, there's like four people there and none of them have the Melchizedek Priesthood and the missionaries are running everything, right?

Richard Yeah, it's how church was this weekend during president's day weekend.

Gerrit Right. Or our friend in Alaska, if he makes the eight hour bicycle ride.

Richard I think it's 19 hours.

Gerrit I still don't know why you have him riding a bicycle.

Richard I saw a reel about it on Instagram, someone riding from the top of Alaska all the way down to the bottom of Argentina. So I just assumed that he also would do that.

Gerrit So anyone living in Alaska, you assume wants to ride a bike to Argentina. To Argentina.

Richard That's what I assume.

Gerrit To Tierra del Fuego.

Richard A hundred percent.

Gerrit I think that's a pretty safe assumption. See this is why Richard is part of the podcast. Fifth page. It's Reece Weiss' fifth page, sure. So look, there are early members of the church in Pittsburgh, and Sidney Reagan, who's from Pennsylvania is going to go on multiple missions there. And in fact, you actually get a letter to the first presence of the church from a bunch of the citizens of, you know, the members of the church from Pittsburgh in 1842. That's part of it's published in the Times and Seasons. So there are certainly members there, but they're not referring to any of the localities of the church as wards yet. They don't get wards until you have a merging of the ecclesiastical and the secular. When they first moved to Commerce, Illinois, they divide the city up into three ecclesiastical geographic locations and call them by the name of ward.

Gerrit I mean, you might notice that there are other places, other cities that use the nomenclature of ward to describe an area, right? Oh, that's in the lower ninth ward. It's in the seventh ward. And they're not talking about a Latter-day Saint congregation. They're talking about a geographic location in the city. And so, they adopt this terminology of ward to describe this division, this ecclesiastical division that's going on in Nauvoo. Here's where you can find that. It's in the Times and Seasons. They publish the minutes, so you can go to josephsmithpapers.org and find this. You can probably find the Times and Seasons October 1839 conference minutes where they describe the first thing that the group has to do, because they've just moved there.

Gerrit I mean, Joseph's only freshly out of Liberty Jail, basically. The meeting was opened by prayer by President Joseph Smith Jr. after which he was appointed president and a James Sloan Clerk of the Conference, or Kirk of the Conference, which is the Lytners, the Kirk. I think I'm having a stroke in the past few weeks. Within a few weeks, I'm just going to be mumbling to myself, I think.

Richard Just in time for the live audience.

Gerrit Why do I smell toast? The president then spoke at some length upon the situation of the church, the difficulties that they had to contend with and the manner in which they've been led to this place. He's talking about commerce. And wished to know the views of the brethren, whether they wish to appoint this a stake or not, stating that he believed it to be a good place and suited for the saints. So he presents, should we make this where we are going to stay, the stake of the church. And then they listed off. It was then unanimously agreed upon that it should be appointed a stake and a place of gathering for the saints. And the following officers were then appointed, William Marx to be president, Bishop Newell K. Whitney to be bishop of the middle ward, Bishop Edward Parcher to be bishop of the upper ward and Bishop Vincent Knight to be bishop of the lower ward. So the earliest wards you get in the church are these three wards.

Gerrit You get the upper, lower, and middle wards of commerce slash nabu. And the bishops who were appointed to be that obviously were, you know, Newell K. Whitney and over partridge have been serving in the bishop roles for nearly a decade at this point, whereas Vincent Knight is going to come a little bit later on. Eventually they are going to, they're going to expand. Those three wards are going to expand into many more wards and nabu. So I don't know. I mean, look, I'm sure there's some reason for the claim, right? I'm sure that there's some reason, you know, maybe they're claiming it's the, you know, the longest existing branch and that when all the other branches of the church closed down, this one didn't mean that there's all kinds of ways that you can argue that. But to give you an idea, by 1842, there's going to be 11 named wards in Nauvoo.

Gerrit And they will sound familiar to you rather than the upper middle and lower. They are going to become the first ward, the second ward, the third ward, the Pittsburgh second ward. The Pittsburgh second ward isn't one of the Nauvoo wards. You know, in kind of a surprise actually. Yeah, a little bit of an upset. The Pittsburgh ward, not one of the Nauvoo wards. Yeah. How about that? This idea of wards is then carried forward, of course, to Salt Lake, and you have the establishment of these geographical locations that are also ecclesiastical boundaries, and really becomes one of the more unique aspects of Latter-day Saint theology. I mean, one of the unique aspects for Latter-day Saints as non-Catholic Christians is that we have geographic locations, and all of the members living in that geographic location attend the same congregation.

Gerrit So thank you, Dr. Jacob, for that inquiry. I wish I could be a little bit more helpful. I would need to have a better idea of what their claim is. On the face of it, doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Sidney Rigdon is certainly very prominent in preaching, like I said, multiple missions. Of course, the other problem is that Sidney Rigdon, after his ex-communication, also goes back to Pennsylvania, where he founds his own church.

Richard Is it possible that Dr. Jacob isn't actually a member of the church? Perhaps he's-

Gerrit Maybe he's just a member of Church of Jesus Christ.

Richard That's possible. You know what? Thanks for listening.

Gerrit Are you a bicker tonight? Because that's what they're called. Sidney Rigdon goes back. Remember when we were going to do a whole thing on apostates?

Richard We said we were. Apostles and apostates and apothecaries.

Gerrit We did apostles, apostates and apothecaries. That was roughly the same time that we were getting-

Richard We were going to do a multi-part or we did one and a half parts.

Gerrit What did we do with the other part?

Richard We were going to do a whole bunch, then we started talking about Moroni.

Gerrit Oh, I thought it was because of Willard Richards and his many guns.

Richard It's possible.

Gerrit At any rate, he goes back to Monongahela, Pennsylvania, and establishes his own church, and then gets excommunicated from his own church that he established because he was trying to force them into the law of consecration in a way that they didn't want to. And so one of his converts takes over that church, and his name is William Bickerton, and that's why they are called Bickertonites. And there are roughly 20,000 Bickertonites who 100% believe in the Book of Mormon, do not accept any of the revelations of Joseph Smith or anything else coming from it. The Book of Mormon, absolutely the Word of God, no Book of Commandments, no doctrine.

Richard At their heyday, 20,000, not currently 20,000. Currently 20,000.

Gerrit So currently I would say-

Richard So Brother Jacob might be Dr. Brother Jacob.

Gerrit So it's Dr. Brother Jacob of Bickertonite fame.

Richard It's possible.

Gerrit Jacob, we're gonna need you to both perform a free root canal for me and also tell us whether or not you're a Bickertonite.

Richard Thank you very much, Jacob, for the email and for helping Gerrit with his dead tooth.

Gerrit I don't even need one, but you know what? I want one now. I liked him to root canal. I want an elective, because I said Litner.

Richard Yeah, yes. You've already had the anesthetic. So, this email comes to us from Whitney. Whitney, we have friends of the show. Whitney is on a tear.

Gerrit Whitney is both talented and hilarious.

Richard Very funny. So, we've talked about a fan page, and we've actually received several very, very funny cartoons and gifts or memes recently that have been very funny. Whitney's produced about half of them, and they are all hilarious. If we do a fan page, so I want to do a fan page, and I want to call it a Dirkmaat's fan page, and it's got like the three Nephites in the background picture, you know.

Gerrit And some Evangelical Christians taking over a pulpit.

Richard Something like that. And then we show some of these different funny memes and cartoons and things. It'd be very, very funny. Anyway, Whitney has produced about half of them. Very, very good. If we do it, it's because Whitney's produced so many funny things that we want to be able to share them. But Whitney sends an email, really enjoying the Lucy Harris Wicked Witch of the Restoration episodes. That's funny. That is very funny. What I really enjoy is the premium, but what I really enjoy is the premium content. I have been training for a marathon and as my legs burn and my feet blister, I have learned that God chose me to suffer somehow. That makes me feel better. That God cared enough about me individually to make me hurt myself. Really fascinating how you can sum up theology in a way that makes me laugh and I'm gonna burn in hell forever.

Gerrit Well, you know what? Look, ask any Christian and you'll know.

Richard So Whitney's from Texas. You'll get that here. If y'all have a second premium channel, su-premium, that covers the fall. Su-premium, I want to have one now. I do too. That covers the fall and Nicene Creed and early Christian saints. I will also sign up for that. I did find an Instagram account that seemed up Gerrit's Alley. It's called What's in Your Bible, which is pretty funny. Yeah, Becky's dream is for us to make enough money to pay Gerrit, to pay Gerrit to just troll.

Gerrit So you were attacking me for saying Litner. You just called me a vegetable.

Richard My least favorite.

Gerrit You don't like carrots?

Richard I hate carrots.

Gerrit More than I hate onions?

Richard More than anyone hates anything.

Gerrit Why do you hate carrots? What about a baby carrot?

Richard If it tastes like meat, like if it's in a roast.

Gerrit It's the way you like cooked carrots?

Richard I like carrots that taste like beef.

Gerrit Do you like them or you tolerate them?

Richard I would tolerate them.

Gerrit But you don't seek them out?

Richard I would never seek them out. So I'm convinced that it's some sort of genetic issue. Some people, like 10% of the population, they say that cilantro tastes like soap. I'm convinced that just carrots are just the grossest-

Gerrit First of all, you're dropping some libel on cilantro that I didn't know about.

Richard Look, I'll get our crack research down.

Gerrit I mean, we've seen some memes about our crack research.

Richard I'm pretty confident it's 10% where there's something where cilantro tastes like soap to them.

Gerrit I just think it tastes like terrible. So I don't like cilantro, but it's not like it tastes like soap.

Richard Yeah. So carrots to me are just the worst thing I've ever tasted in my life.

Gerrit I eat onions so much that they ruin all the foods I like, because people will put them in there thinking they're making them better.

Richard This is the texture or the taste?

Gerrit All of it.

Richard This is the whole thing.

Gerrit I mean, look, I-

Richard It's the experience.

Gerrit I mean, look, I-

Richard It's the experience.

Gerrit And you're shouting from the background. No, no. I mean, look, I love onion powder.

Richard Okay.

Gerrit But that doesn't taste anything like a real onion. And if it did, then why aren't you all just cooking with onion powder and stop putting pieces of onion in my stuff? Right?

Richard That's a good question.

Gerrit It's not the same.

Richard It's not the same. Next email.

Gerrit Thank you, Whitney. I want to have something called Supremium. It sounds kind of like a pizza.

Richard So this is what should the subject, what should Oliver have studied out in his mind? This comes to us from Eric. I love listening to the Standard of Truth podcast. The podcast has given me a lot of food for thought and laughs over the past year or so that I've been listening. I'm a neuroscientist who studies the effects of general anesthesia on the rat brain. Sometimes, I need to do mindless tasks at work, and I've long gravitated towards Church History podcast to pass the time.

Gerrit So we are the mindless task.

Richard Yes, as he's just putting rat brain on slice.

Gerrit As he slices up rat brain, he's like, you know what I could go for? I could go for some township discussion right about now.

Richard I was listening to the Standard of Truth and heard how much you enjoy hearing from your listeners, then, which we do. Then in the middle of Friday night, I woke up and thought of a question that I had never thought of before. I immediately put it on my calendar to email you the question, lest I forgot it by the morning. Here's the question. We know, as you recently reminded us in the podcast, that Joseph often didn't look at the gold plates when he was translating the Book of Mormon. We also know from the Doctrine and Covenants, Section 8 and 9, that Oliver Cowdery had the opportunity to help translate, but that he did not continue as he commenced, and had the privilege taken away, D&C 95, and he was famously taught that he took no thought, save it were to ask God, and that the correct way to translate would be to study it out in his mind, then asking God if it is right. First, do we know the means of translation that Oliver tried to use when he translated?

Richard Seer, stones, interpreter, something else. Second, if he commenced translating correctly, as it seems to imply in Doctrine and Covenants, section 9, verse 5, do we know which part of the Book of Mormon was translated by Oliver? Third, and actually my main question, assuming I am interpreting Doctrine and Covenants, section 9, verses 7 through 9 correctly, what was Oliver supposed to study out in his mind? Even if Oliver had the plates in front of him, which he didn't see in person until later that year, I don't know that they would have provided him with any more information to study out in his mind, since they were written in an unknown language. Or another way of looking at it, since Joseph was successful in translating, what was he studying out in his mind as he translated? I imagine Joseph and Oliver both could have studied it out by comparing any words that came to their minds with what they already knew about the gospel. Similarly, or similar, to how we can verify the truth of impressions we receive by comparing them to the words of the prophets.

Richard But that's all I could come up with. Part of the motivation for my question is curiosity, but part of it is also hoping that the answer will provide a greater understanding about what I should be studying out in my mind as I seek personal revelation from the Lord. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge and testimony so freely. Warm regards, Eric.

Gerrit Well, thank you, Eric.

Richard It's a very thoughtful question. It's almost as though he's a neuroscientist.

Gerrit I don't think we can answer questions from neuroscientists because they're smarter than we are.

Richard Yeah, we'd like to actually, we'd like to hear from listeners, but we'd like to stop listening or getting emails from listeners that are smart.

Gerrit Yeah, we need to get emails from people. I think if you're slicing up any type of animal's brain and putting it on slides, I mean-

Richard For science.

Gerrit For science. I'm not sure I want to hear from you if it's not for science. I mean, wouldn't it be great if Eric emailed and said, I was slicing up rat brains the other day for fun, you know, just to pass the time. And I thought to myself, what was Oliver doing? What was he thinking? So this actually, I mean, as Oliver is, one of the main witnesses of the gold plates, I think this is a good story to talk about, and especially as it relates to translation. Some of you might know that I co-authored two books on the translation of the Book of Mormon, and the one most recently was one through the Deseret book, Let's Talk About series, which was designed to provide questions and answers for people, who've heard things like their friend has said, we know Joseph Smith used a rock and a hat, right?

Gerrit And then did a 360 ollie off of a rail.

Richard Extreme anti-Mormon Texan.

Gerrit Extreme anti-Mormon. Yeah, he's like, you know, he was looking at rocks, right? And then he does a tail whip. And so the purpose of that was to help people find those answers, but one of the criticisms actually that people had of that, and, you know, it's a fair criticism, the problem is the book was only allowed to be very, very, very small because they wanted to be basically something very accessible to anybody. So there are all kinds of things we could have put in the book, but didn't because you don't have space. It's that way a lot for an author. I recently wrote an article that will appear in the Liahona on the translation of the Book of Mormon. They basically handed it to me and said, you have 10 words, go. I mean, it wasn't that bad, but it's like, hey, you know that super ridiculously complex topic for which there's hundreds of sources, for which there are multiple books that have been written, for which there are dozens of different perspectives?

Gerrit We need a paragraph. And you understand why, you're trying to make it accessible to everyone. But, you know, I've talked about this before in the past on the podcast, but it bears repeating, at least it bears, you know, while I'm trying to get the image of slice rat brain out of my head, that when historians write, there's a catch 22 for us. If you've ever thought, boy, whenever I read history books, they're the most boring thing in the world. First of all, you're right, but only because you haven't read Richard's Business Manuals.

Richard Oh my gosh, they're so boring.

Gerrit He sent me one of the articles he was reading, and I was like, sounds good. I mean, it was terrible. It was written like the person had never interacted with a real other person ever in their life.

Richard Certainly never kissed a girl.

Gerrit Oh, there's no question. I mean, why couldn't you at least ChatGPT this thing? It was pretty bad. It was rough. It was rough, it was rough. But the problem for academics is that the more, and look, you know this, obviously, you've done all kinds of research and publications when it comes to science, that the more accessible you make what you're writing and saying, the less accurate it becomes. Now, that sounds like that shouldn't be the case, but it is, right? I mean, you see this all the time merely by omission of details. So we say things all the time that are wild superlatives that are all-inclusive, but someone can always take issue with it and say, well, actually, there's da-da, right? So for instance, someone could say something like, all of the faithful Latter-day Saints left Nauvoo by May of 1846 as they headed towards winter quarters.

Gerrit Now, I can understand why someone would say that. The actuality is there are a few other people that are specifically sent back to Nauvoo to do things like close accounts, settle properties, try to sell some of the properties, but you realize how jargony that would sound if someone were to, when they're, what they're trying to write is this is when the church left, when most people were out of Nauvoo. How jargony it would sound if every time you did that, you said, well, you know, the church left for winter quarters, except for these people who didn't leave for winter quarters, this has nothing to do with the story that I'm trying to tell you, but let me tell you this just so you know that there were other people who didn't go. You can't do that every sentence. And so one of the things we couldn't really engage in was this discussion about translation. For a lot of people, this is how they have thought about translation. Now, there's some important aspects to this that I think people have been taught different things about these scriptures.

Gerrit When I was taught about D&C, A and nine, there wasn't even any focus on the translation of the Book of Mormon at all, like at all. When I was taught in seminary, it was, this is how you receive personal revelation. And you have to study it out in your mind and in your heart, and you have to think about it. You can't just take no thought, save it, were to ask me. And then if you get the stupor of thought, then it's wrong. And if you get the burning in the bosom, then it's right. Is that for you, Richard?

Richard Mine was a little different, actually. Mine was actually closer to Eric's experience.

Gerrit Okay, so.

Richard In seminary for me.

Gerrit In seminary. Yeah, right. When they were talking about the translation of the Book of Mormon. So I think this is one of those cases where we don't actually know what is specifically being meant by these verses. The problem is there's an awful lot of commentary that people have made on it as if it is if it is incredibly clear what's meant by it. So let's start with chapter eight so that we can start with, sorry, section eight, chapter eight. What are we talking about? The Book of Mormon here? Section eight. So that we can get this, Oliver Cowdery, verily I say to you, that as surely as the Lord of the Lord, who is your God and your Redeemer, even so surely shall you receive a knowledge of whatsoever things you shall ask in faith, with an honest heart, believing that you shall receive a knowledge concerning the engravings of old records, which are ancient, which contain those parts of my scripture, of which has been spoken by the manifestation of my spirit.

Gerrit So the first part here is that one thing that I notice is that clearly there's an inquiry that's already going on, that Joseph and Oliver in the midst of translating, there are only a few, they could really only be a couple of weeks into translating at this point. And I'll continue, but I'll come back here. We actually had another listener email in because they were talking about how the original version of Doctrine and Covenants Section 8 had something different in it.

Gerrit When you get to verse 6, in your current Doctrine and Covenants, it says, Now, this is not all thy gift, for you have another gift, which is the gift of Aaron. Behold, it has told you many things. Now, that is, what is this gift of Aaron, right? So, I mean, I don't know how many times you read that, like, he has the gift of Aaron, which has told him many things. Now, I think probably the first place your mind goes is Aaronic Priesthood, right?

Richard Sure.

Gerrit But this is a revelation received in April of 1829.

Richard Well, before?

Gerrit Before they've received the Aaronic Priesthood in May of 1829. So whatever is being referenced in this revelation can't be the Aaronic Priesthood, or at least them having the Aaronic Priesthood conferred upon them. Obviously, God can use his power however God wants. I don't paint God into a box and say, oh yeah, this is the only way God does things. So there's some kind of reference that's going on there. Clearly, prior to or at least immediately after Oliver Cowdery's interaction with Joseph, Oliver already had something that is being called a gift, which has told him many things. Verse 7, Behold, there is no other power save the power of God that can cause this gift of Aaron to be with you. Therefore, doubt not, for it is the gift of God, and you shall hold it in your hands and do marvelous works and no power will be able to take it from your hands.

Gerrit So, as I said, that's a little bit cryptic, but let's go back to the original version of Doctrine and Covenants, Section 8, and we will read that. So this is the earliest version that is in the Book of Commandments and Revelations. Again, that, again, wow, what happened?

Richard Wow, we really need to start editing this thing up.

Gerrit We're just not going to though, right?

Richard Well, we do, when I make mistakes, we don't. When you do, we try to keep you-

Gerrit We're leaving this one in.

Richard Yeah, we're trying to keep you protected.

Gerrit I think at this point, the mask is off.

Richard Yeah, we're trying to protect the cash cow, but it's not happening.

Gerrit They know that I'm only just a couple of weeks away from not being able to speak and go here in sentences anymore. The Book of Commandments and Revelations is the manuscript revelation book that they copied all of these early revelations. You assume loose leaf revelations that they copied into one giant book. But when I say a manuscript, I mean, it's a handwritten thing. They then take that manuscript revelation book and they use it as a source to publish the 1833 Book of Commandments and then also the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants. So in most cases for those early revelations, the earliest version we can get our hands on is in the Book of Commandments and Revelation. And some of them aren't in there as we talked about on a previous episode. Some are ripped out, some are not there. I mean, it's gone through a lot. Some are only partially there like, you know, D&C 10 was only half of it's in there.

Gerrit And the way it reads in this earlier version is pretty different. A revelation to Oliver. He being desirous to know whether the Lord would grant him the gift of translation. Now here's what's interesting. What John Whitmer had originally written and then he scratched it out was, he wrote, whether the Lord would grant him the gift of revelation. And then he crossed that out and wrote translation. Now John Whitmer is the one copying it into the revelation. I don't know if that's important, but for whatever reason, he's writing the gift of revelation when he first writes it down. Oliver, verily, verily, I say unto you that as surely as the Lord liveth, which is your God and your Redeemer, even so sure shall you receive a knowledge of whatsoever things you shall ask with an honest heart, believing that you shall receive a knowledge concerning the engravings of old records, which are ancient, which contain those parts of my scriptures of which hath been spoken by manifestation of my spirit.

Gerrit That all sounds pretty similar. I mean, that's almost word for word, although maybe spelled better. But yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart by the Holy Ghost, which will come upon you, which shall dwell in your heart. Now behold, this is the spirit of revelation. Behold, this is the spirit by which Moses brought the children of Israel through the Red Sea on dry ground. Therefore, this is thy gift. Apply unto it, and blessed art thou, for it shall deliver you out of the hands of your enemies, when if it were not so, they would slay thee and bring thy soul to destruction. O, remember these words and keep my commandments. So this is all almost word for word what is in your current Doctrine and Covenants. Keep my commandments. Remember, this is thy gift. Now, this is not all, for thou hast another gift, which is the gift, and here it's the gift of Aaron, right? Which is the gift of working with the Sprout.

Gerrit Did you see that coming?

Richard I did not see that coming.

Gerrit Do you have some facts on Solange?

Richard I do actually. It's roughly four to fourteen percent. Now, that's according to Martha Stewart's website, which is, I think, the New England Journal of Medicine is very similar to...

Gerrit To Martha Stewart's website?

Richard That's right.

Gerrit Yeah. It's a tier one journal?

Richard That's right.

Gerrit Yeah. It's a tier one journal?

Richard Yeah, it's a tier one journal.

Gerrit For business people, it is.

Richard Well, Reddit had it three to twenty one percent, and I'm like, get out of here, Reddit. Martha Stewart? All right, four to fourteen percent. So right in the range of about ten percent of people.

Gerrit That it tastes like soap.

Richard There's a certain, yeah, there's a certain chemical, a certain genetic...

Gerrit So why would people put cilantro in anything if fifteen to twenty percent of the people eating it will hate you for it?

Richard Well, so people like you, if I'm going through Cafe Rio, I say, no cilantro, please. But for me, I'm like, extra cilantro.

Gerrit But it's mixed into the rice for some people.

Richard That's a good point. Well, you know what? You're catering to ninety percent of the people.

Gerrit So you just don't even care about the two percent?

Richard You do not.

Gerrit You do not leave the ninety and nine.

Richard I've done... Look, yeah, going after the one, that's not the same as market research. Market research suggests I should sell to the ninety and nine sheep.

Gerrit So market research is I don't even care about the other sheep? No, no, no.

Richard We don't care about them. We want to focus. Our target market here is these ninety nine sheep.

Gerrit And these ninety nine sheep will eventually reproduce and create other sheep. So that's our real cash cow.

Richard A hundred percent.

Gerrit Yeah. I like these business interludes. But notice that it said the gift, which is the gift of working with the sprout. Behold, it hath told you things. Behold, there is no other power save God that can cause this thing of nature. So that's something different, right? This thing of nature to work in your hands, for it is the work of God. And therefore, whatsoever you shall ask to tell you, by that means, that will he grant unto you, that you shall know, remember, oh, sorry, there's no punctuation. So I just ran a sentence on there. Let me go back and read it again. Therefore, whatsoever you shall ask to tell you, by that means, that will he grant unto you, that you shall know, remember, that without faith you can do nothing, trifle not with these things, do not ask for that which he ought not to ask, that you may know the mysteries of God, and that you may translate all those ancient records which have been hit up, which are sacred, and according to your faith shall it be done unto you.

Richard A hundred percent.

Gerrit Yeah. I like these business interludes. But notice that it said the gift, which is the gift of working with the sprout. Behold, it hath told you things. Behold, there is no other power save God that can cause this thing of nature. So that's something different, right? This thing of nature to work in your hands, for it is the work of God. And therefore, whatsoever you shall ask to tell you, by that means, that will he grant unto you, that you shall know, remember, oh, sorry, there's no punctuation. So I just ran a sentence on there. Let me go back and read it again. Therefore, whatsoever you shall ask to tell you, by that means, that will he grant unto you, that you shall know, remember, that without faith you can do nothing, trifle not with these things, do not ask for that which he ought not to ask, that you may know the mysteries of God, and that you may translate all those ancient records which have been hit up, which are sacred, and according to your faith shall it be done unto you.

Gerrit Behold, it is I that have spoken it, and I am the same which spake unto you from the beginning. Amen. So there's one anomaly, so there's a couple anomalies we need to talk about here. Obviously Sprout is a big one, so we're going to have to spend a little time on Sprout. I can only assume that Josh is rapidly dialing our number as he listens to this, saying, what are you guys talking about? What's clear is that Oliver Cowdery apparently prior to his association with Joseph Smith is someone who has worked with a rod or a dousing rod or a tree branch, essentially, as a means of getting answers from God. Richard was showing me how he would use it if he was looking for water in the floor of my second, my upstairs bedroom.

Gerrit If this was a video medium, all of you would have been such a delight. This is why you need to go to the live recording. You would have seen Richard in his glory demonstrating what that looked like. This sounds crazy to someone today. Now I say that, guarantee there's several people listening right now who themselves have used scrying rods, which is what they're called, they're dousing rods, to find water. Generally, that's someone who's a farmer and they've used it, and they can't explain how it works, but the rods cross over one another and you dig right there. And what do you know? That's where the water is to have a well. In Joseph Smith's time, people, they didn't understand science at all. I mean, at all, they literally believe that you are sick because you have too much blood in your body. They literally believe that you are sick because you allowed your body's temperature to get too cold, and that's what caused you to get sick and to start sneezing.

Gerrit I mean, they have no concept of bacteria or viruses or anything. And so it's easy to look back on them and kind of be like, wow, I mean, they could have done with some more neuroscientists slicing some rat brains probably, right? So when it came to some things, they used terms that were expansive but also had very little meaning. One of their favorite terms that they used to mean almost anything is electromagnetism, and they use it for all kinds of stuff. And look, they understand that electricity exists. I mean, we all know about Benjamin Franklin and the key on the kite, right? So they understand that lightning is electricity. They get that. They understand that there's also forces that somehow interact with one another, like magnets and things like that. They have legitimately no idea why.

Gerrit It's not like they understand atoms and, you know, oh yeah, that's obviously because the neutrons here are forming a covalent bond with... They don't understand any of that, okay? That's all later. And so what happens in the kind of in the dearth of scientific, actual scientific understanding, is they assign terminologies to things that seem to be the case, even though we wouldn't be able to explain how that really works. So let's talk about the scrying rod or the sprout that he has. It's very interesting that the Revelation... This is God speaking to Oliver Cowdery. During that time period, people believe that there were certain people whose hands were delicate enough, who had enough electromagnetism in themselves. Again, it's a word that means nothing, but it means some kind of power. That when they held a freshly cut, a forked green sapling, that the water inside the sapling would actually pulsate towards water hidden under the ground.

Gerrit And that only certain people had hands that were in tune enough to be able to feel those pulsations. So we call that crazy. I mean, I don't know what we, I mean, everyone listening right now is like, tell me some more about cilantro. But they don't think that it's crazy. They think just like not everyone can be the doctor dentist. Not everyone has the ability to have their hands be steady enough. Not everyone has the ability to see blood and be okay. Not everyone has the ability to smell that smell of burning tooth when they're drilling it and be okay with it. That doesn't mean that those things don't exist, right? It means that not everyone has the gifted, and we still say things like, oh, she's such a gifted surgeon.

Gerrit We say, well, what does that even mean? Like, well, she has such careful hands. She's able to do such a good job in her surgeries. Clearly, different people have different motor skills. In their world, that's kind of how they saw it. But not everybody has hands that are in touch enough that they can feel the pulsations of the water from these dousing rods or scrying rods. And clearly, Oliver Cowdery appears to be one of those people. Now, another way that sometimes these rods were used was by people trying to get answers from... I'm a little worried right now, because I can see Richard, he appears to be trying to look up dousing rods on the internet right now. No, it's all cilantro. Okay, good. I was worried.

Richard Well, Mexico was the largest exporter. California is the state. It produces 56 million pounds of cilantro a year.

Gerrit Man. So...

Richard I did look up Sprouts for a second, but the Siren Song of Cilantro brought me back.

Gerrit It brought you back. I like that. I like that you're always going to go back to our roots, or in this case, a nasty plant. That tastes terrible. And not even like soap. Just terrible to begin with. Some people use these rods as ways of trying to get answers from God, right? So they'd ask questions and then have, you know, if they felt the rod pulled down, then that would be a yes, and if they didn't, then that would be a no kind of a thing. That sounds crazy to you. But how many of you struggling with something in your life has sat there with a closed set of scriptures and said to God, God, I just need, I need your direction, you know, whatever scripture I open to, let it be what directs me. How many people have done that? Right? Quite a few. And you know what? You're using an external, an external object, the scriptures, and you're hoping that God guides that external object to where it's something that inspires you.

Gerrit And not because you're crazy, but because you believe in God. Right? So it's actually just a manifestation of faith. And so for, for Cowdery, clearly he feels like he's got the ability to find water, you know, with a dowsing rod, like, like many people do. Dowsing is not weird at all in 19th century America. It's how people look for wells in 19th century America. Although you think it's a lot easier in the East, right? How come we didn't have any of that? We got to, got to Salt Lake. But Heber C. Kimball will also use a dowsing rod. So it's a very common thing then, but just sounds crazy to us today. And God, instead of trying to reinvent the wheel with people, He always seems to take people where they're at. He takes people with the beliefs they already have. Even if some of those, but look, He didn't set Oliver down and say, you know what, Oliver, I got to tell you this, electromagnetism, not a thing.

Gerrit You know, I mean, look, it's a thing, but not the way you think it's a thing. You know, if you were to take, you know, an astrophysics course that I'll, you know, I'll reveal in the coming years, God doesn't do that. He simply uses Cowdery's already existing belief to try to incorporate the way God wants to give Oliver Cowdery some answers. So one of the first things I want to say about this, Eric, is I don't think any of us actually know what's going on fully in this conversation, because you can't fully explain, nor can I, what ways Oliver Cowdery is actually using this sprout, which they will later come to refer to as his gift of Aaron, because they believe that it's a gift. Remember, Joseph has a gift to translate, and it's prior to him receiving any priesthood office at all.

Gerrit Joseph Smith is translating words from the gold plates, using the seer stones, Urim and Thummim, whatever you want to say, using the stones that God has prepared from 1827, at least as early as 1828. And it's not until April or May, sorry, of 1829, that he receives even the Aaronic Priesthood. And generally, all of us would say, well, translation of languages by a seer, that's obviously got to be a Melchizedek Priesthood thing, you know, the way we divide it up. So I think first and foremost, I think we need to step back a little bit on Doctrine and Covenants, Section 8, because I'm not entirely sure exactly what's being discussed. Here's the other reason why I'm a little hesitant to be definitive about what is being discussed. For whatever reason, Doctrine and Covenants, Section 8 does not mention the gold plates.

Gerrit Now, this is not because God isn't willing to mention the plates in Doctrine and Covenants, Section 5. He's more than willing to reference the plates. He's more than willing to reference the plates in other sections of the Doctrine and Covenants. In Doctrine and Covenants, Section 17, which we are going to spend even more time on at some future date because this is going to be Witnesses Part 11 at this point, he references the plates. But notice that he doesn't actually reference the plates in this revelation. We simply assume that it's the plates. Now, I'm not saying it's a bad assumption. It could very well be a great assumption. But it is an assumption. It doesn't say gold plates. What does it say? You shall receive a knowledge concerning the engravings of old records which are ancient, which contain those parts of my scripture, which have been spoken by the manifestation of my spirit. Well, sure, the only old records has got to be the plates.

Gerrit I mean, I think that's why we make that assumption. But once again, when it's referenced at the end, you will know the mysteries of God that you may translate all those ancient records which have been hit up, which are sacred. That's kind of an interesting terminology, isn't it? Why is it referencing records in this plural and all of those ancient records if it's just the plates? Here's the other wrench or the other fly in the ointment here. We're not entirely sure the order in which Doctrine and Covenants Section 8, Section 7 and Section 9 are received. Clearly, we understand that 9 comes after 8. But the way that these are originally listed in the Book of Commandments, the first revelation is Section 8 and then Section 7 and then Section 9.

Gerrit Well, what is Section 7? I think we have multiple podcasts on it, right?

Richard I think so.

Gerrit They're probably terrible.

Richard There's no question.

Gerrit I mean, look, are they worse than this one?

Richard I don't know. There's less cilantro facts in those. So yeah.

Gerrit But there's more Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.

Richard Okay. You know what? All right. It's a wash.

Gerrit It's a push. Yeah. And to put it in terms Richard can understand, it's a push.

Richard It's a push. You lose your big.

Gerrit Yeah. Yep.

Richard Because he always wins.

Gerrit Well, so Doctrine and Covenants Section 7 is precisely what? It's another ancient record that has been written and hidden up, written by the Apostle John that Joseph Smith through the Urim and Thummim translates. And that's how you have Doctrine and Covenants Section 7. There's a lot more going on here than I think we know. When we assume that the only question is, can Oliver Cowdery translate the plates, when at the very time Joseph is also translating completely different other ancient records, I think we have to be a little bit careful. So, when we jump to Doctrine and Covenants, section 9, we can read the answer there.

Gerrit We'll use the modern version of that so that it's a little bit easier to read. And it's punctuated. Behold, I say unto you, my son, that because you did not translate according to that which you desired of me, and did commence again to write for my servant Joseph Smith Jr. even so, I would that you should continue until you have finished this record which I have entrusted unto him. Notice verse 2, and then behold, other records have I that I will give unto you power that you may assist to translate. Once again, Doctrine and Covenants, section 9 is referencing something else, some other record. It's not just the plates. Now, maybe that's what's going on or maybe it's not. Be patient, my son, for it's wisdom of me that's not experience you translate at this present time. Behold, the work which you are called is to write for my servant Joseph. Now, here's where you get this explanation that, behold, you have not understood, you have supposed that I would give it unto you when you took no thought save it was to ask me.

Gerrit But behold, I say unto you that you must study it out in your mind and then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right, it will cause your bosom to burn within you. Wherefore, you shall feel that it is right. Now, if you had known this, you could have translated, right? So verse nine, I guess I shouldn't skip over, but if it's not right, you'll have no such feelings but you'll have a stupor of thought that should cause you to forget the thing which is wrong. Therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me. There is something going on here that is a preparation that Oliver Cowdery either did not fully achieve or did not fully undertake. In some ways, it almost seems like he didn't even know this, right? Verse 10, now, if you had known this, you could have translated, nevertheless, it's not expedient that you should translate. Behold, it was expedient when you commenced, but you feared.

Gerrit And the time has passed and it is not expedient now. So here's a great question that we don't know. We don't know why there was a need or an expediency for Oliver Cowdery to translate during this time in April. Maybe Joseph was really tired. Maybe he had, you know, he had some things he had to do or whatever. And that's why Oliver Cowdery needed to step in. Maybe Joseph was sick. I don't think we have any idea why Oliver Cowdery, it was expedient that he should translate. Here's what we do know. Whatever preparations he undertook, at some point, he feared. And the time is now past. You took no thought, save it were be to ask me. For me, the way I interpreted this and look, this is speculative because we don't know what's going on here.

Gerrit When people talk definitively about these sections, they're talking definitively knowing or maybe not knowing that we don't know almost anything about what's going on. Do we have Oliver Cowdery's writing in the original manuscript that demonstrates that he was translating? There is a very, very, very small place where Joseph Smith's handwriting is in the original manuscript, like basically the end of a sentence, you know, kind of thing, well, the end of a thought. And so people said, oh, well, maybe that's was Oliver Cowdery translating. I know Royal Skousen thinks probably more likely that, you know, Oliver fell asleep and that Joseph just did it, finished out, finished it out on his own, or maybe Oliver had to leave, whatever. So it's not entirely clear that Oliver began to translate the gold plates at all that he attempted to, okay, but when it says that if you had started as you commenced, right, I don't know if commenced means translate or if it means prepare to translate.

Gerrit I don't know what that means. Does it mean, look, you started trying to get your mind right? Trying to think about holy things in order to get you to the right place. Then you didn't keep doing that. And then you didn't have the ability to translate. We know from David Whitmer's explanation that Joseph couldn't translate either unless he was spiritually prepared. You make a great point, Eric, that they're not looking at the plates. Oliver Cowdery hasn't seen the plates yet. So clearly Oliver is not studying the plates in order to do the translation. But what was it that God wanted him to do? Did he want him to spiritually purify himself, to prepare his faith so that when the time came to translate, whether it was the gold plates or whether it was some other record that he was in the right frame of mind to be able to do it?

Gerrit That's what my speculation is. And that Doctrine and Covenants, Section 8 and 9 are actually not terribly helpful in explaining how Joseph Smith translated the gold plates. Because this is an explanation of how Oliver Cowdery didn't translate, not how he did, right? It's an explanation of what Oliver was told to do with some very specific things about Oliver, like the fact that he used a sprout, right? That God knew that he had this power, this gift to feel the vibrations in the sprout. So I don't really know. And I know that's not the answer people want. The answer people want is they want me to be definitive and they want me to say, this is what this means and this is what this means. And they want me to say, I know that cilantro tastes good and it doesn't. They want me to...

Richard Big Cilantro wants you to say that.

Gerrit They've been pushing it for years. They were going to sponsor this podcast. And I said, you know what? I have integrity.

Richard They absolutely pulled out all of their advertisers and lost millions of dollars.

Gerrit The next time someone offers to sponsor our podcast will be the first time, probably because of content like this. So, I don't know exactly, but this is that. That's how I understand it. The way I understand it or the way, at least the way it makes sense to me is I'm not even entirely sure that Oliver Cowdery was attempting to translate the gold plates rather than a manuscript of John, which is D&C 7. I'm not entirely sure that he ever actually translates anything rather than just commences to prepare himself to translate. And I'm not entirely sure what is on Oliver's mind that is causing him such problems and fear. Without knowing what those, the answers to those questions are, I think it becomes really difficult to say, yeah, well, we know Oliver couldn't translate because of this. I don't even know what he's afraid of.

Gerrit And anyone who says that they do know what he's afraid of, they're speculating. And I think part of the problems surrounding D&C 8 and 9 and 7 really is there's lots of speculation that people don't say is speculation. They say it like it's definitive when the text is far from definitive. Oliver from all we can understand has not yet seen the plates. So whatever this preparation for translation was, it doesn't seem to be him viewing the plates. Now, maybe he was viewing characters that Joseph copied off the plates, whatever. I don't know. I know we promised it for a long time. We're going to have to not read any emails. We're going to have to kick me off of the podcast. It's going to be just welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast with your host, Professor Richard LeDuc, and that's it.

Richard I'll have nothing to say, but we'll get right to the ending.

Gerrit Well, I think that's the most important part. The only way for us to finish is if we don't ever answer any emails from anyone.

Richard I think you did say that we were going to be talking about, we were going to be reading some of the...

Gerrit The accounts of the Witnesses?

Richard Yes.

Gerrit We got no chance at that.

Richard Yeah, of course. We're well out of time.

Gerrit Yeah. I mean, there are people who stopped listening 20 minutes ago who are right now saying, yeah, you don't have time for that. I know that could probably be frustrated to some people. At the same time, the purpose of the podcast is try to answer people's questions. My guess is those are some of the questions that other people have.

Richard The translation, the issue with Oliver Cowdery, that for sure is something that lots of people have thought of.

Gerrit Whether or not he has a sprout that he uses to receive answers.

Richard Every one of them are thinking that.

Gerrit It was why you brought up cilantro in the first place. It really is. That sprout that Oliver Cowdery has looks like cilantro.

Richard So we really appreciate all the Litners to the podcast, and thank you so much.

Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com. Until next time.

Oliver Cowdery Attempts to Translate

Chapters

Transcript

Quote board

Source shelf

Jacob's email (a dentist) about the Pittsburgh Second Ward

Same email, the Pittsburgh claim

Letter from Pittsburgh members to the First Presidency, 1842 (published in part in the Times and Seasons)

October 1839 conference minutes, Commerce, Illinois (Times and Seasons; josephsmithpapers.org)

Same minutes, appointing the first bishops of wards

Whitney's email from Texas

Eric's email (a neuroscientist), "What should Oliver have studied out in his mind?"

Gerrit Dirkmaat's "Let's Talk About" book on the Book of Mormon translation (Deseret Book)

Gerrit Dirkmaat, forthcoming Liahona article on the translation of the Book of Mormon

D&C 8:1 (current text)

D&C 8:6-7 (current text)

Book of Commandments and Revelations, earliest manuscript of D&C 8

Same manuscript, the gift of working with the sprout

Same manuscript, "this thing of nature"

Martha Stewart's website, on cilantro tasting like soap

D&C 7

D&C 9:1-2

D&C 9:7-10

Royal Skousen on Joseph Smith's handwriting in the original manuscript

Episode quiz

What is Jacob's profession?

Fun with Numbers

From 1827 to 1846

Percentages said on air

Putting numbers to words

What this episode talks about more than usual

Names said most

Signature words

More from this episode

Claim check

Take it to class

Banter bin

The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag

In General Conference

Go deeper

Oliver Cowdery Attempts to Translate

Crawling toward the PhD

Jacob's email (a dentist) about the Pittsburgh Second Ward

Same email, the Pittsburgh claim

Letter from Pittsburgh members to the First Presidency, 1842 (published in part in the Times and Seasons)

October 1839 conference minutes, Commerce, Illinois (Times and Seasons; josephsmithpapers.org)

Same minutes, appointing the first bishops of wards

Whitney's email from Texas

Eric's email (a neuroscientist), "What should Oliver have studied out in his mind?"

Gerrit Dirkmaat's "Let's Talk About" book on the Book of Mormon translation (Deseret Book)

Gerrit Dirkmaat, forthcoming Liahona article on the translation of the Book of Mormon

D&C 8:1 (current text)

D&C 8:6-7 (current text)

Book of Commandments and Revelations, earliest manuscript of D&C 8

Same manuscript, the gift of working with the sprout

Same manuscript, "this thing of nature"

Martha Stewart's website, on cilantro tasting like soap

D&C 7

D&C 9:1-2

D&C 9:7-10

Royal Skousen on Joseph Smith's handwriting in the original manuscript

What is Jacob's profession?

From 1827 to 1846

Percentages said on air

Putting numbers to words

What this episode talks about more than usual

Names said most

Signature words