We're on our 10-year plan now going into our 24th year. There were a lot of promises that were made, and I am a little behind.
Standard of Truth · Season 5 · Episode 2 · 66:29
Can Satan Repent?
A non-member brother-in-law asks a question nobody in elders quorum was ready for, and Gerrit answers it in only 40 minutes.
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Can Satan repent? Not that he would, but if he could, is that option available?
Aaron's non-member brother-in-law, who has attended elders quorum on and off for a year
17:52until the actual question
26%banter, by the clock
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1Gary Coleman reference
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572 moments · tap a time to play from thereIntro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise, and humor.
Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise, and humor.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Dr. Richard LeDuc, who has all kinds of power. He's like the genie now on Aladdin. He is...
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Dr. Richard LeDuc, who has all kinds of power. He's like the genie now on Aladdin. He is...
Richard Ultimate cosmic power, itty bitty living space.
Richard Ultimate cosmic power, itty bitty living space.
Gerrit Still an itty bitty living space.
Gerrit Still an itty bitty living space.
Richard Well, today's mortgage rates and housing prices, how could it not be?
Richard Well, today's mortgage rates and housing prices, how could it not be?
Gerrit Yeah, I know that you told Becky that as soon as you got your PhD in hand, that you would instantly be making millions of more dollars a year.
Gerrit Yeah, I know that you told Becky that as soon as you got your PhD in hand, that you would instantly be making millions of more dollars a year.
Richard We're on our 10-year plan now going into our 24th year. There were a lot of promises that were made, and I am a little behind.
Richard We're on our 10-year plan now going into our 24th year. There were a lot of promises that were made, and I am a little behind.
Gerrit I feel like you just get to keep over-promising and under-delivering, but just a little bit here and a little bit there, delivering so that you string her along.
Gerrit I feel like you just get to keep over-promising and under-delivering, but just a little bit here and a little bit there, delivering so that you string her along.
Richard Yeah, no. Much like any graduate program, you have to steal their spirit away. You have to just absolutely crush them, and eventually they will accept whatever is left.
Richard Yeah, no. Much like any graduate program, you have to steal their spirit away. You have to just absolutely crush them, and eventually they will accept whatever is left.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard And that's really the core of our marriage.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard And that's really the core of our marriage.
Gerrit Yeah. Accepting whatever is left. It's a great way to be happy.
Gerrit Yeah. Accepting whatever is left. It's a great way to be happy.
Richard Well, happy new year. I know this is coming out, like, I don't know, 10 days after New Year's, but you know.
Richard Well, happy new year. I know this is coming out, like, I don't know, 10 days after New Year's, but you know.
Gerrit I mean, yes.
Gerrit I mean, yes.
Richard Happy New Year, Gerrit.
Gerrit Yeah. Happy New Year-ish.
Richard Happy New Year, Gerrit.
Gerrit Yeah. Happy New Year-ish.
Richard Well, Gerrit.
Gerrit Weren't those bowl games amazing?
Richard Well, Gerrit.
Gerrit Weren't those bowl games amazing?
Richard Well, the Arizona State game was fun.
Richard Well, the Arizona State game was fun.
Gerrit Man, man. It was very frustrating.
Gerrit Man, man. It was very frustrating.
Richard It was a fun game.
Gerrit Should have won that game.
Richard It was a fun game.
Gerrit Should have won that game.
Richard I don't know. The Oregon, most of the playoff games have been dreadful, but I actually sent a message because I don't know if you, you watched the Texas Arizona State game. Texas went up like 17-0 or 17-3. I guess Arizona State scored a field goal, so it was like 17-3, but Texas looked like they were going to destroy them.
Richard I don't know. The Oregon, most of the playoff games have been dreadful, but I actually sent a message because I don't know if you, you watched the Texas Arizona State game. Texas went up like 17-0 or 17-3. I guess Arizona State scored a field goal, so it was like 17-3, but Texas looked like they were going to destroy them.
Gerrit Yeah.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard And I texted a group of friends and I'm like, all of these playoff games have been all so terrible.
Richard And I texted a group of friends and I'm like, all of these playoff games have been all so terrible.
Gerrit And then Skattebo came.
Gerrit And then Skattebo came.
Richard And then the fourth quarter, I'm like, man, these playoff games have been awesome, guys. I love these playoff games.
Richard And then the fourth quarter, I'm like, man, these playoff games have been awesome, guys. I love these playoff games.
Gerrit Yeah, the Oregon Ohio State game.
Gerrit Yeah, the Oregon Ohio State game.
Richard There was a chance that in the third quarter, it seemed like, almost, like it could happen.
Richard There was a chance that in the third quarter, it seemed like, almost, like it could happen.
Gerrit It was never, that issue was not a doubt.
Gerrit It was never, that issue was not a doubt.
Richard At 34-15, I'm like, they got, and then Ohio State scored, and then it was all over.
Richard At 34-15, I'm like, they got, and then Ohio State scored, and then it was all over.
Gerrit I think the Oregon, from the time they snapped the ball, had no chance. It was so bad.
Gerrit I think the Oregon, from the time they snapped the ball, had no chance. It was so bad.
Richard The commentators at Half Time were like, it's like they've never played football before.
Richard The commentators at Half Time were like, it's like they've never played football before.
Gerrit It was crazy. It was, of all the blowouts, because even like the Penn State SMU game was kind of a blowout. But it was a blowout primarily because SMU just kept making mistakes. Where it was like, oh man, they're gonna score. Oh, they threw it under the interception. Oh, they're gonna score. Oh, they lost it on fourth down.
Gerrit It was crazy. It was, of all the blowouts, because even like the Penn State SMU game was kind of a blowout. But it was a blowout primarily because SMU just kept making mistakes. Where it was like, oh man, they're gonna score. Oh, they threw it under the interception. Oh, they're gonna score. Oh, they lost it on fourth down.
Richard And the Boise State game was a blowout, but then it was competitive. In the third quarter, it was like 17-14.
Richard And the Boise State game was a blowout, but then it was competitive. In the third quarter, it was like 17-14.
Gerrit And had Boise State got a touchdown instead of an interception, games all the way. Yeah, sure.
Gerrit And had Boise State got a touchdown instead of an interception, games all the way. Yeah, sure.
Richard But Oregon looked like garbage.
Richard But Oregon looked like garbage.
Gerrit No, Oregon looked like, yeah. We apologize to all of our, how many millions of Oregon Ducks listeners.
Gerrit No, Oregon looked like, yeah. We apologize to all of our, how many millions of Oregon Ducks listeners.
Richard We're huge in Portland.
Richard We're huge in Portland.
Gerrit In Eugene, at least. Boy, yeah, I mean, we've got-
Gerrit In Eugene, at least. Boy, yeah, I mean, we've got-
Richard We're big in Portland, we're big in Eugene. Antifa loves us.
Richard We're big in Portland, we're big in Eugene. Antifa loves us.
Gerrit Yeah, how are we in Corvallis?
Gerrit Yeah, how are we in Corvallis?
Richard Not as good.
Richard Not as good.
Gerrit Okay, well, that's the reason why we're covering Oregon and not Oregon State. Well, thank you so much for joining us for another season. Sorry for a little bit of football talk, but we did that just to keep our teenage listeners happy. Speaking of which, Richard?
Gerrit Okay, well, that's the reason why we're covering Oregon and not Oregon State. Well, thank you so much for joining us for another season. Sorry for a little bit of football talk, but we did that just to keep our teenage listeners happy. Speaking of which, Richard?
Richard Yeah, we've got the Phebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag. Dear doctors, Dirkmaat and LeDuc, first, felt amazing to write. Second, since I never got to congratulate you, Dr. LeDuc, but congrats. So exciting that you can now call yourself doctor, just the doctor if you so wish. I also wanted to write for no other reason than to express excitement that JT is going to my old alma mater. You can say that a middle school is an alma mater. He goes on to talk about if he took the same theater teacher that this is Nate had, that he knows why he wouldn't be able to tend those.
Richard Yeah, we've got the Phebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag. Dear doctors, Dirkmaat and LeDuc, first, felt amazing to write. Second, since I never got to congratulate you, Dr. LeDuc, but congrats. So exciting that you can now call yourself doctor, just the doctor if you so wish. I also wanted to write for no other reason than to express excitement that JT is going to my old alma mater. You can say that a middle school is an alma mater. He goes on to talk about if he took the same theater teacher that this is Nate had, that he knows why he wouldn't be able to tend those.
Gerrit I see, yeah.
Gerrit I see, yeah.
Richard She is, they are, I don't know what's a she, but they are no nonsense. Yeah, they are no nonsense.
Richard She is, they are, I don't know what's a she, but they are no nonsense. Yeah, they are no nonsense.
Gerrit She reaps where she does not sow.
Gerrit She reaps where she does not sow.
Richard No question, just excited for the new year and all the fun it will bring with the podcast. Hope you had a great Christmas and have a safe new year. Thank you so much, Nate. It's very nice. This next email comes to us from Marlo. More teenage fans, just wanted to let you know that my 17, 16, and 14 year old kids love the podcast, especially our 16 year old son whose name ironically is James Madison, who turns on your premium content and listens every day while he does his workouts. That's, it is motivating.
Richard No question, just excited for the new year and all the fun it will bring with the podcast. Hope you had a great Christmas and have a safe new year. Thank you so much, Nate. It's very nice. This next email comes to us from Marlo. More teenage fans, just wanted to let you know that my 17, 16, and 14 year old kids love the podcast, especially our 16 year old son whose name ironically is James Madison, who turns on your premium content and listens every day while he does his workouts. That's, it is motivating.
Gerrit Yeah, I kind of feel like you can either listen to Black Sabbath or corn or us during your workout. I feel like that's...
Gerrit Yeah, I kind of feel like you can either listen to Black Sabbath or corn or us during your workout. I feel like that's...
Richard It's inspiration. Do you remember as a kid that, Infomercial Body by Jake?
Richard It's inspiration. Do you remember as a kid that, Infomercial Body by Jake?
Gerrit Oh yes. Yeah.
Gerrit Oh yes. Yeah.
Richard So this is Body by Standard of Truth podcast. Yeah.
Richard So this is Body by Standard of Truth podcast. Yeah.
Gerrit We're the PX90 podcast.
Gerrit We're the PX90 podcast.
Richard The P90X.
Richard The P90X.
Gerrit P90X, that's what it is.
Gerrit P90X, that's what it is.
Richard No, but the thing you said is more...
Richard No, but the thing you said is more...
Gerrit You know what? That's actually much closer to what we are.
Gerrit You know what? That's actually much closer to what we are.
Richard We're PX90.
Richard We're PX90.
Gerrit How long ago was that?
Gerrit How long ago was that?
Intro A decade ago? That was such a big deal?
Intro A decade ago? That was such a big deal?
Richard I don't know. I don't know.
Richard I don't know. I don't know.
Gerrit Why don't we get the crack research staff on that and figure out when that stopped being a thing?
Gerrit Why don't we get the crack research staff on that and figure out when that stopped being a thing?
Richard I feel like in the mid aughts.
Richard I feel like in the mid aughts.
Gerrit The early tens. For like a year period.
Gerrit The early tens. For like a year period.
Richard 2012, that's my guess. I'm gonna put my...
Richard 2012, that's my guess. I'm gonna put my...
Gerrit It was all that anyone could talk about. I mean, it was more important than anything. And every person said, oh yeah, that's what I'm doing. Yeah, I'm doing it. And then I never heard about it again. It was crazy.
Gerrit It was all that anyone could talk about. I mean, it was more important than anything. And every person said, oh yeah, that's what I'm doing. Yeah, I'm doing it. And then I never heard about it again. It was crazy.
Richard Cause all those people died, Gerrit. They all died.
Richard Cause all those people died, Gerrit. They all died.
Gerrit Were they in sweat lodges?
Gerrit Were they in sweat lodges?
Richard I guess. So it was released April 10th, 2004.
Richard I guess. So it was released April 10th, 2004.
Gerrit Okay. And I remember for like a year and a half.
Gerrit Okay. And I remember for like a year and a half.
Richard It became a phenomenon in 2010.
Richard It became a phenomenon in 2010.
Gerrit Okay, that's what I thought.
Gerrit Okay, that's what I thought.
Richard Okay, yes.
Gerrit And once it became a phenomenon, every person you talked to said that they were doing it.
Richard Okay, yes.
Gerrit And once it became a phenomenon, every person you talked to said that they were doing it.
Richard Yeah.
Richard Yeah.
Gerrit And then like two years later, it was as if it had never been released. Like I never heard about it ever again.
Gerrit And then like two years later, it was as if it had never been released. Like I never heard about it ever again.
Richard Yeah, no. So I mean, look, everyone's made their goals. They've got their New Year's resolutions.
Richard Yeah, no. So I mean, look, everyone's made their goals. They've got their New Year's resolutions.
Gerrit I see.
Gerrit I see.
Richard They're trying to get their beach body. And I have a beach body of somebody.
Richard They're trying to get their beach body. And I have a beach body of somebody.
Gerrit It's a beach in Antarctica. Sure.
Gerrit It's a beach in Antarctica. Sure.
Richard Well, I was going to say Maine in like November. I have like a Maine November beach body.
Richard Well, I was going to say Maine in like November. I have like a Maine November beach body.
Gerrit I don't even have that.
Gerrit I don't even have that.
Richard Well, so James Madison, premium content when he does his workouts. We live in Washington, DC. So they named their son James Madison, and they live in DC. That is really embracing the full culture.
Richard Well, so James Madison, premium content when he does his workouts. We live in Washington, DC. So they named their son James Madison, and they live in DC. That is really embracing the full culture.
Gerrit Now I feel an even greater responsibility to get the constitutional convention right.
Gerrit Now I feel an even greater responsibility to get the constitutional convention right.
Richard We live in Washington, DC. Not many blocks from the US Capitol and our kids have been exposed to a lot of American history in many forms, and they still vote you as one of their favorites. They love it when you play devil's advocate with your special voices. And don't seem to mind the minutes spent in mindless banter. Oh, they're going to love this episode. In mindless banter. Thanks for bringing them great content and for making them laugh at the same time.
Richard We live in Washington, DC. Not many blocks from the US Capitol and our kids have been exposed to a lot of American history in many forms, and they still vote you as one of their favorites. They love it when you play devil's advocate with your special voices. And don't seem to mind the minutes spent in mindless banter. Oh, they're going to love this episode. In mindless banter. Thanks for bringing them great content and for making them laugh at the same time.
Gerrit The special voices.
Gerrit The special voices.
Richard Thank you.
Gerrit Including when you do that anti-Mormon voice kind of thing.
Richard Thank you.
Gerrit Including when you do that anti-Mormon voice kind of thing.
Richard I think it was... So the creepy anti-Mormon guy is like...
Richard I think it was... So the creepy anti-Mormon guy is like...
Gerrit Yeah, it's very breathy.
Gerrit Yeah, it's very breathy.
Richard It's very breathy.
Richard It's very breathy.
Gerrit It's all dark.
Gerrit It's all dark.
Richard It's sultry.
Richard It's sultry.
Gerrit But the truth shouldn't tell you about how there's a Smith drank beard in there. It's like a breathy...
Gerrit But the truth shouldn't tell you about how there's a Smith drank beard in there. It's like a breathy...
Richard It's Susan Estrads minus like nine cartons of cigarettes a day.
Richard It's Susan Estrads minus like nine cartons of cigarettes a day.
Gerrit Yeah. So anyway, thank you so much. Tell all of your... We would have given them a shout out by name, all of them, but we only got one of them named.
Gerrit Yeah. So anyway, thank you so much. Tell all of your... We would have given them a shout out by name, all of them, but we only got one of them named.
Richard James.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard James.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard James Madison.
Gerrit James Madison.
Richard James Madison.
Gerrit James Madison.
Richard This next email comes to us from Elder Tippett. I have listened to almost all of the Joseph Smith and the Restoration with my companion, and now I'm leaving him and the podcast in my last area and require free premium content in the Pennsylvania Pittsburgh Mission. And would love to learn more about why the Calvinist God hates me and how I can't do anything about it. Elder Tippett.
Richard This next email comes to us from Elder Tippett. I have listened to almost all of the Joseph Smith and the Restoration with my companion, and now I'm leaving him and the podcast in my last area and require free premium content in the Pennsylvania Pittsburgh Mission. And would love to learn more about why the Calvinist God hates me and how I can't do anything about it. Elder Tippett.
Gerrit That is great. Again, for those of you who are not aware, we have this free podcast we put out every week. And because people wanted to find a way to contribute to the podcast in order to keep us going, or to at least keep the lights on in my upstairs bedroom, a spare bedroom where we're at right now recording, we created a premium content which has several different podcasts, one of them an American History podcast, one on Joseph Smith and the Restoration. This year we have one called Search These Commandments, which is about the Doctrine and Covenants, that people can sign up for and then we can use the premium funds to fund the rest of the other podcasts. So for the people who want to contribute to help out, that's a great way to do it. But then we also decided we would make all of that content free to anyone who had a missionary email address. And so that's why we're constantly getting emails from, I mean, and we get a lot of emails.
Gerrit That is great. Again, for those of you who are not aware, we have this free podcast we put out every week. And because people wanted to find a way to contribute to the podcast in order to keep us going, or to at least keep the lights on in my upstairs bedroom, a spare bedroom where we're at right now recording, we created a premium content which has several different podcasts, one of them an American History podcast, one on Joseph Smith and the Restoration. This year we have one called Search These Commandments, which is about the Doctrine and Covenants, that people can sign up for and then we can use the premium funds to fund the rest of the other podcasts. So for the people who want to contribute to help out, that's a great way to do it. But then we also decided we would make all of that content free to anyone who had a missionary email address. And so that's why we're constantly getting emails from, I mean, and we get a lot of emails.
Gerrit We get a dozen emails from missionaries a day probably.
Gerrit We get a dozen emails from missionaries a day probably.
Richard It's great actually. It's turned into quite a bit of fun. Missionaries, these guys are hilarious.
Richard It's great actually. It's turned into quite a bit of fun. Missionaries, these guys are hilarious.
Gerrit Now, all of them were in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania mission.
Gerrit Now, all of them were in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania mission.
Richard Every single one of them, sisters and elders alike.
Richard Every single one of them, sisters and elders alike.
Gerrit I can only assume that when they're selecting where to send missionaries, they're just like, another one to Pittsburgh. Another one, another one. It's like more cowbell. I've got to have more, I've got to have more missionaries.
Gerrit I can only assume that when they're selecting where to send missionaries, they're just like, another one to Pittsburgh. Another one, another one. It's like more cowbell. I've got to have more, I've got to have more missionaries.
Richard It's entirely possible at this point that none of them are actually in that mission.
Richard It's entirely possible at this point that none of them are actually in that mission.
Gerrit We've already caught a couple of them lying about what mission they were in.
Gerrit We've already caught a couple of them lying about what mission they were in.
Richard My son did.
Richard My son did.
Gerrit Yeah, so I said a couple of them. I met your son. The sister who was in Ohio told us she wasn't really and was just close.
Gerrit Yeah, so I said a couple of them. I met your son. The sister who was in Ohio told us she wasn't really and was just close.
Richard Yes, that's right. This next email comes to us from Ben. My mom introduced me to the podcast and she came to visit this week. We live in Norman, Oklahoma. I'm a professor at Oklahoma.
Richard Yes, that's right. This next email comes to us from Ben. My mom introduced me to the podcast and she came to visit this week. We live in Norman, Oklahoma. I'm a professor at Oklahoma.
Gerrit Oh, your arrival.
Gerrit Oh, your arrival.
Richard Well, I mean, go Oklahoma as a state.
Richard Well, I mean, go Oklahoma as a state.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard We're all there. Boomer Sooner.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard We're all there. Boomer Sooner.
Gerrit You both hate Texas. I get it.
Gerrit You both hate Texas. I get it.
Richard That's true. Although, I think I've told you this before, so in Texas, if I ask you what time it is, I would say, well, the time is 1:53 p.m. and Oklahoma still stinks.
Richard That's true. Although, I think I've told you this before, so in Texas, if I ask you what time it is, I would say, well, the time is 1:53 p.m. and Oklahoma still stinks.
Gerrit Yes, but not stinks.
Gerrit Yes, but not stinks.
Richard Yes, I'm trying to clean it up for the kids.
Richard Yes, I'm trying to clean it up for the kids.
Gerrit Clean this up.
Gerrit Clean this up.
Richard Yeah, that's right. Anyway, no, I don't believe that, obviously, at all, Ben. I love University of Oklahoma. It's a great university. So we went to the garage for dinner. My nephew ordered the sticky finger. Now the sticky finger is the burger that has the kind of-
Richard Yeah, that's right. Anyway, no, I don't believe that, obviously, at all, Ben. I love University of Oklahoma. It's a great university. So we went to the garage for dinner. My nephew ordered the sticky finger. Now the sticky finger is the burger that has the kind of-
Gerrit Peanut butter and jalapeno.
Gerrit Peanut butter and jalapeno.
Richard Yeah, the peanut butter and the pickled jalapeno.
Richard Yeah, the peanut butter and the pickled jalapeno.
Gerrit Yeah. It sounds worse than it sounds to you. However bad you envision it, it sounds worse.
Gerrit Yeah. It sounds worse than it sounds to you. However bad you envision it, it sounds worse.
Richard My nephew ordered the sticky finger. My mom ordered just some sort of a boring sandwich. She had one bite of my nephew's sticky finger and regretted her sandwich the rest of the meal. It's delicious. It doesn't seem like it would go together.
Richard My nephew ordered the sticky finger. My mom ordered just some sort of a boring sandwich. She had one bite of my nephew's sticky finger and regretted her sandwich the rest of the meal. It's delicious. It doesn't seem like it would go together.
Gerrit I wouldn't even try it, and I will stick by the fact that I won't try it.
Gerrit I wouldn't even try it, and I will stick by the fact that I won't try it.
Richard It's absolutely delicious. Okay. Thank you so much. And then we gave your son the access to the podcast. This last one comes to us from Aaron and will be the source of the content for this episode. I feel an enormous pressure to make this email clever or entertaining, of which I am neither. None the less. Neither are we.
Richard It's absolutely delicious. Okay. Thank you so much. And then we gave your son the access to the podcast. This last one comes to us from Aaron and will be the source of the content for this episode. I feel an enormous pressure to make this email clever or entertaining, of which I am neither. None the less. Neither are we.
Gerrit I don't know why you feel so much pressure. Like, I've got to make this entertaining, and I've got to make it funny.
Gerrit I don't know why you feel so much pressure. Like, I've got to make this entertaining, and I've got to make it funny.
Richard Yeah, we've built an empire. And by empire, I mean.
Richard Yeah, we've built an empire. And by empire, I mean.
Gerrit You know, one that falls.
Gerrit You know, one that falls.
Richard That's right. I mean, the Roman Empire currently.
Richard That's right. I mean, the Roman Empire currently.
Gerrit We are just as inaction as the Eastern Roman Empire. We're Byzantium right now. Currently, yes.
Gerrit We are just as inaction as the Eastern Roman Empire. We're Byzantium right now. Currently, yes.
Richard Nonetheless, I enjoy your podcast very much because doctors Dirkmaat and LeDuc are both clever and entertaining. I have two items of interest. The first is a question. My non-LDS brother-in-law posed after attending elders quorum on and off for a year or so, and learning bits and pieces about the gospel there. First of all.
Richard Nonetheless, I enjoy your podcast very much because doctors Dirkmaat and LeDuc are both clever and entertaining. I have two items of interest. The first is a question. My non-LDS brother-in-law posed after attending elders quorum on and off for a year or so, and learning bits and pieces about the gospel there. First of all.
Gerrit So he's only going to elders quorum? Like, so he's not going to sacrament meeting? And he's not going to gospel doctrine class?
Gerrit So he's only going to elders quorum? Like, so he's not going to sacrament meeting? And he's not going to gospel doctrine class?
Richard I got to give me more of this elders quorum.
Richard I got to give me more of this elders quorum.
Gerrit On and off, though. I think we need a follow up email from you about, this is Aaron, right?
Gerrit On and off, though. I think we need a follow up email from you about, this is Aaron, right?
Richard This is Aaron, yeah.
Gerrit Yeah, what's going on? Is he just likes only coming to church every other week and he only wants to be there for elders quorum?
Richard This is Aaron, yeah.
Gerrit Yeah, what's going on? Is he just likes only coming to church every other week and he only wants to be there for elders quorum?
Richard What an incredible endorsement for the elders quorum presidency for the teachers in the elders quorum. There's a lot of fun that is had at elders quorum expense about how boring.
Richard What an incredible endorsement for the elders quorum presidency for the teachers in the elders quorum. There's a lot of fun that is had at elders quorum expense about how boring.
Gerrit Deservedly.
Gerrit Deservedly.
Richard Yeah, that's right. So guys like prayer, like, do you think that's like important or?
Richard Yeah, that's right. So guys like prayer, like, do you think that's like important or?
Gerrit My favorite, my favorite is Richard and I have attended elders quorum before and-
Gerrit My favorite, my favorite is Richard and I have attended elders quorum before and-
Richard On and off over the past year?
Richard On and off over the past year?
Gerrit On and off over the past year occasionally. And we were one time sitting together in an elders quorum in Napa, I believe, wasn't it?
Gerrit On and off over the past year occasionally. And we were one time sitting together in an elders quorum in Napa, I believe, wasn't it?
Richard Yeah, it was in Napa, Idaho.
Richard Yeah, it was in Napa, Idaho.
Gerrit It was in Napa, Idaho. And of all of them, it was the worst of all of them.
Gerrit It was in Napa, Idaho. And of all of them, it was the worst of all of them.
Richard It ended 15 minutes early and it still felt like we were in there for nine hours.
Richard It ended 15 minutes early and it still felt like we were in there for nine hours.
Gerrit The guy let us out 15 minutes early because it was so bad. I mean, I think because at one point, he legitimately said these words. So, do you guys think it would be important to have faith in Jesus? He asked a class of people in an elders quorum if it would be important to have faith in Jesus.
Gerrit The guy let us out 15 minutes early because it was so bad. I mean, I think because at one point, he legitimately said these words. So, do you guys think it would be important to have faith in Jesus? He asked a class of people in an elders quorum if it would be important to have faith in Jesus.
Richard Someone raised their hand and said yes.
Richard Someone raised their hand and said yes.
Gerrit Someone did, someone answered for me. And they just said yes. No, they just said yes. They just said yes. No follow-up, no statement. And the guy sitting up at the front, he was sitting on a table, went okay, okay.
Gerrit Someone did, someone answered for me. And they just said yes. No, they just said yes. They just said yes. No follow-up, no statement. And the guy sitting up at the front, he was sitting on a table, went okay, okay.
Richard Yeah.
Richard Yeah.
Gerrit And that was...
Gerrit And that was...
Richard When the elders quorum got out, the best that I can compare to is that everybody had the look in their face like a boxer and the refs giving a standing eight count, right? And they're dazed. And everyone...
Richard When the elders quorum got out, the best that I can compare to is that everybody had the look in their face like a boxer and the refs giving a standing eight count, right? And they're dazed. And everyone...
Gerrit He's grabbing their gloves, he's shaking them up and down.
Gerrit He's grabbing their gloves, he's shaking them up and down.
Richard So you're okay? Everyone walked out of there like a little woozy, like we weren't really sure what was going on.
Richard So you're okay? Everyone walked out of there like a little woozy, like we weren't really sure what was going on.
Gerrit It was incredible. But it was the great stereotype of all bad elders quorum lesson. It was clear that the teacher had never even looked at what the lesson was. And we were visiting, so maybe he was filling in, he didn't say that he was.
Gerrit It was incredible. But it was the great stereotype of all bad elders quorum lesson. It was clear that the teacher had never even looked at what the lesson was. And we were visiting, so maybe he was filling in, he didn't say that he was.
Richard Yeah, I don't know. It was my parents' ward and we were in for the weekend.
Richard Yeah, I don't know. It was my parents' ward and we were in for the weekend.
Gerrit Did you know the guy at all?
Gerrit Did you know the guy at all?
Richard No, no, no. Because when I left, I left the fifth ward, I came back to the 22nd ward.
Richard No, no, no. Because when I left, I left the fifth ward, I came back to the 22nd ward.
Gerrit When I left, I left and I never looked at it. It sounds like this is a Hallmark show.
Gerrit When I left, I left and I never looked at it. It sounds like this is a Hallmark show.
Richard Well, it grew a lot out there, so when I came back, there were 20 wards.
Richard Well, it grew a lot out there, so when I came back, there were 20 wards.
Gerrit But anyway, we all have to take time to thank the good teachers we have in our lives.
Gerrit But anyway, we all have to take time to thank the good teachers we have in our lives.
Richard And apparently in Aaron's ward, they're tremendous.
Richard And apparently in Aaron's ward, they're tremendous.
Gerrit I do want a little more information about how he's only going to elders quorum. Is he just skipping sacrament meeting? Is he not going to Sunday school? I want to find out more.
Gerrit I do want a little more information about how he's only going to elders quorum. Is he just skipping sacrament meeting? Is he not going to Sunday school? I want to find out more.
Richard And by the way, the reason I'm saying that they're tremendous, despite having almost no detail, is the fact that he kept going back.
Richard And by the way, the reason I'm saying that they're tremendous, despite having almost no detail, is the fact that he kept going back.
Gerrit If he went more than once.
Gerrit If he went more than once.
Richard They're incredible.
Richard They're incredible.
Gerrit It's hard to get people who are members of the church to go to elders quorum more than once.
Gerrit It's hard to get people who are members of the church to go to elders quorum more than once.
Richard It's the hardest thing.
Richard It's the hardest thing.
Gerrit Yeah, ask Rob. Jobless Rob, our new elders quorum president. He can't get anybody to go to elders quorum.
Gerrit Yeah, ask Rob. Jobless Rob, our new elders quorum president. He can't get anybody to go to elders quorum.
Richard That's great. All right. So, yes. So we assume Aaron's elders quorum president and Rex's, those are the, and then potentially Rob. We'll see what he does.
Richard That's great. All right. So, yes. So we assume Aaron's elders quorum president and Rex's, those are the, and then potentially Rob. We'll see what he does.
Gerrit Well, Rob's in a probationary state right now. We'll find out.
Gerrit Well, Rob's in a probationary state right now. We'll find out.
Richard Bits and pieces about the gospel here and there. He asked whether Satan can repent. Not that he would, but if he could, is that option available? Just that question from the non-member brother-in-law. That is a fairly deep and profound question.
Richard Bits and pieces about the gospel here and there. He asked whether Satan can repent. Not that he would, but if he could, is that option available? Just that question from the non-member brother-in-law. That is a fairly deep and profound question.
Gerrit It is a very deep question. Can Satan repent? Now, let's start off by saying, of the things that are essential to your salvation.
Gerrit It is a very deep question. Can Satan repent? Now, let's start off by saying, of the things that are essential to your salvation.
Richard This is like two or three.
Richard This is like two or three.
Gerrit It's ham radios, then this.
Gerrit It's ham radios, then this.
Richard Then food storage, then the temple.
Richard Then food storage, then the temple.
Gerrit Yeah, then the temple. The temple's fourth. It comes in. I mean, I don't mean to say that it's not, it's a great question because what it demonstrates is that someone is thinking more deeply about the cosmology, essentially. I mean, the very idea of creation.
Gerrit Yeah, then the temple. The temple's fourth. It comes in. I mean, I don't mean to say that it's not, it's a great question because what it demonstrates is that someone is thinking more deeply about the cosmology, essentially. I mean, the very idea of creation.
Richard And the fact that Satan is in any way even like us is a thing that's a deeply profound thing.
Richard And the fact that Satan is in any way even like us is a thing that's a deeply profound thing.
Gerrit So, this question was asked before, and I know I won't spend a ton of time on this just because we're going to spend more time figuring out whether or not we should have faith in Jesus, in elders quorum. But early Christian fathers had this discussion, too. But their discussion about whether or not the devils can repent is a very different question. Because it's important that we recognize, so for your brother-in-law, hey, have you read the Book of Mormon? Let's talk about the theology of angels. I mean, I don't know where you want to work this in, Aaron, but it's important to understand that when any other Christian asks the question of whether or not Satan or the devil or Lucifer can repent, they are asking about whether or not angels which are fallen from grace can ever be restored to grace.
Gerrit So, this question was asked before, and I know I won't spend a ton of time on this just because we're going to spend more time figuring out whether or not we should have faith in Jesus, in elders quorum. But early Christian fathers had this discussion, too. But their discussion about whether or not the devils can repent is a very different question. Because it's important that we recognize, so for your brother-in-law, hey, have you read the Book of Mormon? Let's talk about the theology of angels. I mean, I don't know where you want to work this in, Aaron, but it's important to understand that when any other Christian asks the question of whether or not Satan or the devil or Lucifer can repent, they are asking about whether or not angels which are fallen from grace can ever be restored to grace.
Gerrit I know I've talked about this on other podcasts, and so I'm really just beating the proverbial dead horse here. But it's essential to understand this from a theological perspective in order to talk about this question. All Christians, Catholic and Protestant, believe that angels are not people. Okay, so most important thing to get out of the way. If you're, as a Latter-day Saint, you believe angels are people. And I don't even mean getting into the, you know, the, into the weeds or the specifics about whether or not, you know, well, technically, an angel has to have a resurrected body, and you know, a spirit of a just person made perfect, they don't have a body.
Gerrit I know I've talked about this on other podcasts, and so I'm really just beating the proverbial dead horse here. But it's essential to understand this from a theological perspective in order to talk about this question. All Christians, Catholic and Protestant, believe that angels are not people. Okay, so most important thing to get out of the way. If you're, as a Latter-day Saint, you believe angels are people. And I don't even mean getting into the, you know, the, into the weeds or the specifics about whether or not, you know, well, technically, an angel has to have a resurrected body, and you know, a spirit of a just person made perfect, they don't have a body.
Richard These are distinctions that are not being made. You are, you're straining at gnats there compared to where it is.
Richard These are distinctions that are not being made. You are, you're straining at gnats there compared to where it is.
Gerrit Yes, I'm trying to swallow this whole camel. Give me a sec, and I mean cigarettes. But for a Christian, angels are creations of God. Now, Christians also believe that mankind is creations of God, meaning that they have no existence in and of themselves. In other words, they are creatures. That's where the term creature comes from. They were created. Angels are often similar to humans. They often take the form or shape of humans. But there's an entire theological debate, at least in Joseph Smith's time, about whether or not angels even actually have bodies, or whether they just project the fact that they have bodies, or whether or not they sometimes have bodies. For Latter-day Saints, because of Joseph Smith, we believe that angels are resurrected people who were once living on this earth.
Gerrit Yes, I'm trying to swallow this whole camel. Give me a sec, and I mean cigarettes. But for a Christian, angels are creations of God. Now, Christians also believe that mankind is creations of God, meaning that they have no existence in and of themselves. In other words, they are creatures. That's where the term creature comes from. They were created. Angels are often similar to humans. They often take the form or shape of humans. But there's an entire theological debate, at least in Joseph Smith's time, about whether or not angels even actually have bodies, or whether they just project the fact that they have bodies, or whether or not they sometimes have bodies. For Latter-day Saints, because of Joseph Smith, we believe that angels are resurrected people who were once living on this earth.
Gerrit That is radical theology that we don't realize how radical it is. On our premium side, we were talking about Joseph Smith's, the first appearance of Moroni to Joseph Smith. And one of the things I wanted to highlight is, even in the appearance of Moroni, the very fact that Moroni says that he's an angel sent from God, and that Moroni says, hey, by the way, I'm a guy who used to live 1400 years ago, and I'm the one who buried these plates up. The very fact that the angel talking to Joseph is a man who has died and been resurrected is outside of the realm of Christian theology.
Gerrit That is radical theology that we don't realize how radical it is. On our premium side, we were talking about Joseph Smith's, the first appearance of Moroni to Joseph Smith. And one of the things I wanted to highlight is, even in the appearance of Moroni, the very fact that Moroni says that he's an angel sent from God, and that Moroni says, hey, by the way, I'm a guy who used to live 1400 years ago, and I'm the one who buried these plates up. The very fact that the angel talking to Joseph is a man who has died and been resurrected is outside of the realm of Christian theology.
Richard It's almost as, it's funny when you described that on the premium, plugged for the premium, by the way. When you described it, I hadn't thought of it like that before, and it was like, boy, this is almost as dramatic of a thing as there being plates at all. Like this is an enormous deal, Moroni existence.
Richard It's almost as, it's funny when you described that on the premium, plugged for the premium, by the way. When you described it, I hadn't thought of it like that before, and it was like, boy, this is almost as dramatic of a thing as there being plates at all. Like this is an enormous deal, Moroni existence.
Gerrit That Moroni is saying, I am a man who used to live, I hid up plates, I'll show you where I hid them, and he's now resurrected and he's an angel, right? So Latter-day Saint theology on angels is incredibly unique. No other Christian denomination believes that angels are people. Now I know you're like, well, wait a minute, when I was watching Highway to Heaven, I know there's all kinds of popular culture, angels in the outfield. Have you ever seen Kid with a Broken Halo?
Gerrit That Moroni is saying, I am a man who used to live, I hid up plates, I'll show you where I hid them, and he's now resurrected and he's an angel, right? So Latter-day Saint theology on angels is incredibly unique. No other Christian denomination believes that angels are people. Now I know you're like, well, wait a minute, when I was watching Highway to Heaven, I know there's all kinds of popular culture, angels in the outfield. Have you ever seen Kid with a Broken Halo?
Richard No, haven't seen it.
Richard No, haven't seen it.
Gerrit Really?
Gerrit Really?
Richard No, never.
Gerrit I feel like Richard, how many of our listeners have seen the Kid with a Broken Halo? I mean, you want to know who was in it? Gary Coleman.
Richard No, never.
Gerrit I feel like Richard, how many of our listeners have seen the Kid with a Broken Halo? I mean, you want to know who was in it? Gary Coleman.
Richard There you go.
Richard There you go.
Gerrit Yeah, back when he was...
Gerrit Yeah, back when he was...
Richard You know what? I might have seen it then. Wait a minute. All right, I'm going to get to the bottom of this. I'm going to pull this up here.
Richard You know what? I might have seen it then. Wait a minute. All right, I'm going to get to the bottom of this. I'm going to pull this up here.
Gerrit Well, and he also was an angel, right? Kid with a Broken Halo. But angels are represented as people. When you see them in art, they look like people, but they are not people. In Christian theology, angels are created to be special servants of God. They were never intended to become mortal, and they were never intended to be people or to live on this earth. That's why you can have an angel that has horns or has wings or whatever. An angel can be anything God wants it to be, because God created it out of nothing, and it was never intended to be a person. So from the beginning of this conversation, because we believe that angels, well, because Christians believe that angels are fundamentally different from people.
Gerrit Well, and he also was an angel, right? Kid with a Broken Halo. But angels are represented as people. When you see them in art, they look like people, but they are not people. In Christian theology, angels are created to be special servants of God. They were never intended to become mortal, and they were never intended to be people or to live on this earth. That's why you can have an angel that has horns or has wings or whatever. An angel can be anything God wants it to be, because God created it out of nothing, and it was never intended to be a person. So from the beginning of this conversation, because we believe that angels, well, because Christians believe that angels are fundamentally different from people.
Gerrit Now, they're both created, so they're the same in that regard, but angels are a different class of being. They aren't the same being. It would be like saying a horse is a human because they are both creations. No, they are different classes of beings. Latter-day Saint theology, because of Joseph Smith, is that angels are people, in point of fact, resurrected, glorified people who once lived on the earth. That is how Adam can be the Archangel Michael. That is how Noah can be the Angel Gabriel. The very fact that we believe, at least in some instances, that these great prophets from history have served as resurrected angels in this dispensation is completely apart from what the Christian world believes.
Gerrit Now, they're both created, so they're the same in that regard, but angels are a different class of being. They aren't the same being. It would be like saying a horse is a human because they are both creations. No, they are different classes of beings. Latter-day Saint theology, because of Joseph Smith, is that angels are people, in point of fact, resurrected, glorified people who once lived on the earth. That is how Adam can be the Archangel Michael. That is how Noah can be the Angel Gabriel. The very fact that we believe, at least in some instances, that these great prophets from history have served as resurrected angels in this dispensation is completely apart from what the Christian world believes.
Gerrit Now you're thinking, Gerrit, you're not really answering the question. Well, welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast.
Gerrit Now you're thinking, Gerrit, you're not really answering the question. Well, welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast.
Richard Yeah, that's very unbranded. You're killing it.
Richard Yeah, that's very unbranded. You're killing it.
Gerrit Yeah, Gerrit, why do I feel like you're just giving backstory? This has never happened before in the history of Standard. The reason why is while Christians will ask a very similar question, the question means something entirely different to them because a fallen angel, which is what they believe Satan is, they believe Lucifer is an angel, meaning he was never created to be a person. He was never going to be someone that inhabited body. Again, Christians don't believe in a pre-existent life. For Latter-day Saints, because we believe that we were all spirit children with our Heavenly Father before this earth was ever created, the question is a very different question. People like St. Augustine and Thomas Aquinas, they wrestled with this idea.
Gerrit Yeah, Gerrit, why do I feel like you're just giving backstory? This has never happened before in the history of Standard. The reason why is while Christians will ask a very similar question, the question means something entirely different to them because a fallen angel, which is what they believe Satan is, they believe Lucifer is an angel, meaning he was never created to be a person. He was never going to be someone that inhabited body. Again, Christians don't believe in a pre-existent life. For Latter-day Saints, because we believe that we were all spirit children with our Heavenly Father before this earth was ever created, the question is a very different question. People like St. Augustine and Thomas Aquinas, they wrestled with this idea.
Gerrit When we talk about repentance, when we talk about God's mercy and God's grace, could theoretically an angel that was a fallen angel stop being a fallen angel? You know, so what if they just decided to repent? And this is how Thomas Aquinas writes about it. He says, A rational creature that is a creature with intellect and will can sin. If it be unable to sin, this is a gift of grace, not a condition of nature. While angels were yet unbiadified, they could sin, and some of them did sin. So, Aquinas is arguing that when angels were first created, they had agency, and in having agency, they had the ability to sin.
Gerrit When we talk about repentance, when we talk about God's mercy and God's grace, could theoretically an angel that was a fallen angel stop being a fallen angel? You know, so what if they just decided to repent? And this is how Thomas Aquinas writes about it. He says, A rational creature that is a creature with intellect and will can sin. If it be unable to sin, this is a gift of grace, not a condition of nature. While angels were yet unbiadified, they could sin, and some of them did sin. So, Aquinas is arguing that when angels were first created, they had agency, and in having agency, they had the ability to sin.
Gerrit The sinning angels or demons are guilty of all sins insofar as they lead man to commit every kind of sin. But the bad angels themselves, but in the bad angels themselves, there can be no tendency to fleshly sins, sins, but only to such sins as can be committed by purely spiritual beings. These sins are two only, pride and envy. Lucifer, who became Satan, leader of the fallen angels, wished to be as God. This prideful desire was not a wish to be equal to God, for Satan knew by his natural knowledge that equality of creature with creator is utterly impossible. Besides, no creature actually desires to destroy itself, even to become something greater. On this point, man sometimes deceives himself by a trick of imagination.
Gerrit The sinning angels or demons are guilty of all sins insofar as they lead man to commit every kind of sin. But the bad angels themselves, but in the bad angels themselves, there can be no tendency to fleshly sins, sins, but only to such sins as can be committed by purely spiritual beings. These sins are two only, pride and envy. Lucifer, who became Satan, leader of the fallen angels, wished to be as God. This prideful desire was not a wish to be equal to God, for Satan knew by his natural knowledge that equality of creature with creator is utterly impossible. Besides, no creature actually desires to destroy itself, even to become something greater. On this point, man sometimes deceives himself by a trick of imagination.
Gerrit He imagines himself to be another and greater being, yet it is himself that is somehow this other being. But an angel has no sense, faculty of imagination to abuse in this fashion. The angelic intellect, with its clear knowledge, makes such self-deception impossible. Lucifer knew that to be equal with God, he would have to be God, and he knew perfectly that this could not be. What he wanted was to be as God. He wished to be like God in a way not suited to his nature, such as to create things by his own power, or to achieve final beatitude without God's help, or to have command over others in a way proper to God alone. Every nature, that is, every essence as operating, tends to some good, an intellectual nature to good in general.
Gerrit He imagines himself to be another and greater being, yet it is himself that is somehow this other being. But an angel has no sense, faculty of imagination to abuse in this fashion. The angelic intellect, with its clear knowledge, makes such self-deception impossible. Lucifer knew that to be equal with God, he would have to be God, and he knew perfectly that this could not be. What he wanted was to be as God. He wished to be like God in a way not suited to his nature, such as to create things by his own power, or to achieve final beatitude without God's help, or to have command over others in a way proper to God alone. Every nature, that is, every essence as operating, tends to some good, an intellectual nature to good in general.
Gerrit Good under its common aspects, good as such. The fallen angels, therefore, are not naturally evil. Again, this is actually a big point. Augustine makes a similar point. Because angels were created by God out of nothing, they couldn't be evil at the moment of their creation, because then God would have created something evil. So they all have to have this space where God creates angels, and the angels have agency, which Catholics very much believe in agency. So this works really well with their theology. That we have agency, we just use it terribly, and angels had it and used it terribly. I know where you're going.
Gerrit Good under its common aspects, good as such. The fallen angels, therefore, are not naturally evil. Again, this is actually a big point. Augustine makes a similar point. Because angels were created by God out of nothing, they couldn't be evil at the moment of their creation, because then God would have created something evil. So they all have to have this space where God creates angels, and the angels have agency, which Catholics very much believe in agency. So this works really well with their theology. That we have agency, we just use it terribly, and angels had it and used it terribly. I know where you're going.
Richard You can't get away with that. God can't create anything evil. Well, but if he knows that it's going to be evil, what's the difference?
Richard You can't get away with that. God can't create anything evil. Well, but if he knows that it's going to be evil, what's the difference?
Gerrit Let me go back to Thomas Aquinas.
Gerrit Let me go back to Thomas Aquinas.
Richard All right, Aquinas, all right.
Richard All right, Aquinas, all right.
Gerrit Yeah, let me, my pro-Aquinas, anti-Richard sentiments have been known for Aquinas.
Gerrit Yeah, let me, my pro-Aquinas, anti-Richard sentiments have been known for Aquinas.
Richard Can I tell you something, though? So this is what really, really, really irritates me a lot. All right, so Thomas Aquinas is Augustine, Aquinas, these are perceived as-
Richard Can I tell you something, though? So this is what really, really, really irritates me a lot. All right, so Thomas Aquinas is Augustine, Aquinas, these are perceived as-
Gerrit Yeah, Aquinas is one of the most brilliant Christian minds to ever have written.
Gerrit Yeah, Aquinas is one of the most brilliant Christian minds to ever have written.
Richard Protestants believe this to some degree or no?
Richard Protestants believe this to some degree or no?
Gerrit I mean, to a certain degree, especially people, you know, the problem is Aquinas comes so late, that by the time reformers are writing about things, Aquinas is kind of a problem for them because it's close to the Reformation era.
Gerrit I mean, to a certain degree, especially people, you know, the problem is Aquinas comes so late, that by the time reformers are writing about things, Aquinas is kind of a problem for them because it's close to the Reformation era.
Richard Okay.
Gerrit Whereas, so Augustine-
Richard Okay.
Gerrit Whereas, so Augustine-
Richard Augustine gets- Okay.
Richard Augustine gets- Okay.
Gerrit Yeah, because Luther loves- Everyone loves Augustine. He's a thousand years ago. He's easy to get by.
Gerrit Yeah, because Luther loves- Everyone loves Augustine. He's a thousand years ago. He's easy to get by.
Richard Okay, fantastic. Joseph Smith, who is just a hick, uneducated farm boy that the anti or ex-Mormon or whatever community loves to just claim what an idiot he is, right? He is able, because if it's not from God, right? Let's say that it's not. On his own then, is able to come up with answers to these questions that Aquinas and Augustine are all over the place and can't really come to answers about?
Richard Okay, fantastic. Joseph Smith, who is just a hick, uneducated farm boy that the anti or ex-Mormon or whatever community loves to just claim what an idiot he is, right? He is able, because if it's not from God, right? Let's say that it's not. On his own then, is able to come up with answers to these questions that Aquinas and Augustine are all over the place and can't really come to answers about?
Gerrit And not just them. All the reformers, all these other Christian thinkers.
Gerrit And not just them. All the reformers, all these other Christian thinkers.
Richard That's what I'm saying. It's incredibly irritating that it's like, look, we believe him to be a prophet. We believe that the Lord is using him as a prophet to bring forth the restoration. And so we don't say that Joseph Smith is this great theological thinker in the same way. But if he's not, he's answering these questions and he gets none of the credit for it, if he is a false prophet.
Richard That's what I'm saying. It's incredibly irritating that it's like, look, we believe him to be a prophet. We believe that the Lord is using him as a prophet to bring forth the restoration. And so we don't say that Joseph Smith is this great theological thinker in the same way. But if he's not, he's answering these questions and he gets none of the credit for it, if he is a false prophet.
Gerrit He's answering them without, I mean, I have to believe that 14 slash 17 year old Joseph Smith is probably not reading Thomas Aquinas. I mean...
Gerrit He's answering them without, I mean, I have to believe that 14 slash 17 year old Joseph Smith is probably not reading Thomas Aquinas. I mean...
Richard I know, I was.
Richard I know, I was.
Gerrit Right, when you were 14.
Gerrit Right, when you were 14.
Richard When I was 13, I was like, all about that Thomas Aquinas.
Richard When I was 13, I was like, all about that Thomas Aquinas.
Gerrit Yeah, he was reading the City of God by Augustine when he was 13 years old. And he was like, this doesn't make any sense. It has to be by natural grace.
Gerrit Yeah, he was reading the City of God by Augustine when he was 13 years old. And he was like, this doesn't make any sense. It has to be by natural grace.
Richard But it's just, it's so aggravating to me. Like, I understand what he's trying to do. And he is limited with the resources that he has. And given that, brilliant. However, it answers no questions.
Richard But it's just, it's so aggravating to me. Like, I understand what he's trying to do. And he is limited with the resources that he has. And given that, brilliant. However, it answers no questions.
Gerrit Well, let me go on.
Gerrit Well, let me go on.
Richard All right, I'm sorry.
Richard All right, I'm sorry.
Gerrit He says, the devil with his companions sinned immediately after creation.
Gerrit He says, the devil with his companions sinned immediately after creation.
Richard How about that?
Richard How about that?
Gerrit He rejected the grace in which he was created, in which he was meant to use, as good angels used it to merit beatitude. If, however, the angels were not created in grace, as some hold, but had grace available as soon as they were created, then it may be some interval occurred between the creation and the sin of Lucifer and his companions. Lucifer, the chief of the sinning angels, was probably the highest of all the angels. But there are some who think that Lucifer was the highest only among the rebel angels. The sin of the highest angel was a bad example which attracted the other rebel angels, and to this extent was the cause of their sin. So he's a, I mean, he's got like a Harley.
Gerrit He rejected the grace in which he was created, in which he was meant to use, as good angels used it to merit beatitude. If, however, the angels were not created in grace, as some hold, but had grace available as soon as they were created, then it may be some interval occurred between the creation and the sin of Lucifer and his companions. Lucifer, the chief of the sinning angels, was probably the highest of all the angels. But there are some who think that Lucifer was the highest only among the rebel angels. The sin of the highest angel was a bad example which attracted the other rebel angels, and to this extent was the cause of their sin. So he's a, I mean, he's got like a Harley.
Richard Yeah, he's giving a rebel yell. We want more and more and more.
Richard Yeah, he's giving a rebel yell. We want more and more and more.
Gerrit He's got a Harley. He's like, doesn't care about, he's bad to the bone. You got George Thorogood playing in the background. Probably, right?
Gerrit He's got a Harley. He's like, doesn't care about, he's bad to the bone. You got George Thorogood playing in the background. Probably, right?
Richard I assume.
Gerrit Yeah. He goes on to say, the fallen angels did not lose their natural knowledge. So again, this is not to bag on Aquinas. I actually think he's being very reasonable given the knowledge that he has. And what's the knowledge that he has? That God created literally everything out of nothing. That nothing existed but God, and then God created everything, and that God created angels, and that God created people, and those two things aren't the same thing, so therefore they're separate. And so he's trying to reason this out, that there's evil angels. I mean, think about this. How are there evil angels?
Richard I assume.
Gerrit Yeah. He goes on to say, the fallen angels did not lose their natural knowledge. So again, this is not to bag on Aquinas. I actually think he's being very reasonable given the knowledge that he has. And what's the knowledge that he has? That God created literally everything out of nothing. That nothing existed but God, and then God created everything, and that God created angels, and that God created people, and those two things aren't the same thing, so therefore they're separate. And so he's trying to reason this out, that there's evil angels. I mean, think about this. How are there evil angels?
Richard No, I get it. I get, given the circumstances and the information that he has, Lucifer is Billy Idol, and he's up there, you know?
Richard No, I get it. I get, given the circumstances and the information that he has, Lucifer is Billy Idol, and he's up there, you know?
Gerrit Yeah, and he wants more and more and more. So, the fallen, so this is part that I really think is impressive with him. The fallen angels did not lose their natural knowledge by sin, nor did they lose their angelic intellect. Okay, so one of the points for him about why fallen angels are fallen angels is they maintained everything they knew. Angels did not sin ignorantly. They knew exactly what they were doing when they rebelled against God. The fallen angels are obstinate in evil, unrepentant, inflexibly determined in their sin. This follows from their nature as pure spirits, for the choice of a pure spirit is necessarily final and unchanging. So this is the point he's trying to make. The angels were created good. They were in the presence with God.
Gerrit Yeah, and he wants more and more and more. So, the fallen, so this is part that I really think is impressive with him. The fallen angels did not lose their natural knowledge by sin, nor did they lose their angelic intellect. Okay, so one of the points for him about why fallen angels are fallen angels is they maintained everything they knew. Angels did not sin ignorantly. They knew exactly what they were doing when they rebelled against God. The fallen angels are obstinate in evil, unrepentant, inflexibly determined in their sin. This follows from their nature as pure spirits, for the choice of a pure spirit is necessarily final and unchanging. So this is the point he's trying to make. The angels were created good. They were in the presence with God.
Gerrit So, they have all knowledge. It's not like they're like, I don't know, do you think God's really there? He's standing there. He just created you, right? There's no question about the knowledge that they have. And in that knowledge, they made a choice to follow evil rather than good. And so that's why Aquinas says, the choice of a pure spirit is necessarily final and unchanging. What does he mean by that? Well, if you already have all knowledge, and you're not afflicted by some other kind of sin that's causing you to act out, it's not like, oh, Lucifer got drunk, you know, a little bit too much of the communion wine, and now he's going to make the decision he's going to make. He doesn't have a body in this theology. He doesn't have a sin. He's born, he's created without, without evil.
Gerrit So, they have all knowledge. It's not like they're like, I don't know, do you think God's really there? He's standing there. He just created you, right? There's no question about the knowledge that they have. And in that knowledge, they made a choice to follow evil rather than good. And so that's why Aquinas says, the choice of a pure spirit is necessarily final and unchanging. What does he mean by that? Well, if you already have all knowledge, and you're not afflicted by some other kind of sin that's causing you to act out, it's not like, oh, Lucifer got drunk, you know, a little bit too much of the communion wine, and now he's going to make the decision he's going to make. He doesn't have a body in this theology. He doesn't have a sin. He's born, he's created without, without evil.
Gerrit And in that pure, essentially all-knowing, not all-knowing the way God is, but with the perfect knowledge of God, chooses evil because of that, there's no possibility of them changing. Now I realize that the question your brother-in-law asked is, of course he wouldn't, but theoretically could he? The problem with the question is that it's asking, if someone didn't have the nature that they have, could they have a different nature? Well, yes, I mean, yeah, if someone didn't have the nature that they have, then I guess they could be something different. But by saying that they're not that thing, they're no longer the question that we're asking. Now I know this is just Aquinas, so let's kind of fast forward a little bit. For Latter-day Saints, our theology on salvation is so much more expansive.
Gerrit And in that pure, essentially all-knowing, not all-knowing the way God is, but with the perfect knowledge of God, chooses evil because of that, there's no possibility of them changing. Now I realize that the question your brother-in-law asked is, of course he wouldn't, but theoretically could he? The problem with the question is that it's asking, if someone didn't have the nature that they have, could they have a different nature? Well, yes, I mean, yeah, if someone didn't have the nature that they have, then I guess they could be something different. But by saying that they're not that thing, they're no longer the question that we're asking. Now I know this is just Aquinas, so let's kind of fast forward a little bit. For Latter-day Saints, our theology on salvation is so much more expansive.
Gerrit By the way, I should probably say, I'm not going to quote from any Calvinist theologians, but if you do ask a Calvinist theologian, can the devil change, can a fallen angel change and repent, the Calvinist response you're going to get is, of course they can't, because salvation has nothing to do with their actions. It's only a gift that's a free will gift from God. So no, of course they can't, because you're thinking like a Catholic, if you think that they just go, you know, the angel goes and says, I don't know, 10,000 Hail Marys, and then he can be absolved and be a good angel again. From the Calvinist viewpoint, if they were destined for grace, predestined for grace, they would have had grace, because salvation is nothing of yourself at all. Not a little bit, not sometimes, not when we feel like it. It's nothing of yourself at all.
Gerrit By the way, I should probably say, I'm not going to quote from any Calvinist theologians, but if you do ask a Calvinist theologian, can the devil change, can a fallen angel change and repent, the Calvinist response you're going to get is, of course they can't, because salvation has nothing to do with their actions. It's only a gift that's a free will gift from God. So no, of course they can't, because you're thinking like a Catholic, if you think that they just go, you know, the angel goes and says, I don't know, 10,000 Hail Marys, and then he can be absolved and be a good angel again. From the Calvinist viewpoint, if they were destined for grace, predestined for grace, they would have had grace, because salvation is nothing of yourself at all. Not a little bit, not sometimes, not when we feel like it. It's nothing of yourself at all.
Gerrit So from the Calvinist worldview, you wouldn't be able to repent either, these fallen angels, simply because the very fact that they're fallen angels is the will of God.
Gerrit So from the Calvinist worldview, you wouldn't be able to repent either, these fallen angels, simply because the very fact that they're fallen angels is the will of God.
Richard So let me finish what Aaron said in the response. So I did not have a doctrinally based answer other than to say, no, he can't. The only basis I have for that answer is that Satan lost his first estate, and because of that, and the fact that he does not have a body, he cannot repent. Is that answer sound doctrine?
Richard So let me finish what Aaron said in the response. So I did not have a doctrinally based answer other than to say, no, he can't. The only basis I have for that answer is that Satan lost his first estate, and because of that, and the fact that he does not have a body, he cannot repent. Is that answer sound doctrine?
Gerrit It's, I mean, look, it's a pretty good answer. I was going to say that with the advent of Latter-day Saint Theology, our idea of salvation is so much more incredibly expansive that it starts to beg the question, can fall, can't, maybe not Satan. Okay, yeah, we get him. What about the third of the hosts of heaven that followed him? Because they're not just creations of God. They're children of God.
Gerrit It's, I mean, look, it's a pretty good answer. I was going to say that with the advent of Latter-day Saint Theology, our idea of salvation is so much more incredibly expansive that it starts to beg the question, can fall, can't, maybe not Satan. Okay, yeah, we get him. What about the third of the hosts of heaven that followed him? Because they're not just creations of God. They're children of God.
Richard Well, and to that, not even just that third of the hosts, what about the sons of perdition as well? They fall into the same ultimate consequence, right?
Richard Well, and to that, not even just that third of the hosts, what about the sons of perdition as well? They fall into the same ultimate consequence, right?
Gerrit Right, yep. And that question is one that comes up again and again in the early church because Joseph introduces a theology through Doctrine and Covenants, Section 76, that is radical beyond all radicalism. When you're sitting in your gospel doctrine class this year and you cover Doctrine and Covenants, Section 76, I mean, don't be a jerk about it. But if you have a chance, comment on the fact that the important part of D&C 76 is not that we know that there's three kingdoms. I mean, that's important. I'm not saying it's not. But what made it radical was that Joseph is declaring that nearly everyone is going to go to a kingdom of glory, which, as President Oaks said recently in general conference, with exceptions, too few to mention.
Gerrit Right, yep. And that question is one that comes up again and again in the early church because Joseph introduces a theology through Doctrine and Covenants, Section 76, that is radical beyond all radicalism. When you're sitting in your gospel doctrine class this year and you cover Doctrine and Covenants, Section 76, I mean, don't be a jerk about it. But if you have a chance, comment on the fact that the important part of D&C 76 is not that we know that there's three kingdoms. I mean, that's important. I'm not saying it's not. But what made it radical was that Joseph is declaring that nearly everyone is going to go to a kingdom of glory, which, as President Oaks said recently in general conference, with exceptions, too few to mention.
Gerrit All of God's children are going to go to a kingdom of glory, eventually. So Latter-day Saint belief on heaven and on salvation from hellfire is already so expansive that it immediately begins to beg the question, does that mean, in some way, even those spirits that chose to follow Satan at first, could they somehow repent and change? And, you know, get back on the right track. In May of 1844, Joseph is giving a discourse, and he makes a reference to what it is that the devil did in the last days. He's quoting from John, well, sorry, he's quoting John in the Book of Revelation, talking about the last days, and he says, I will send to you another witness, and he shall preach this gospel to all nations, to the ends of the world.
Gerrit All of God's children are going to go to a kingdom of glory, eventually. So Latter-day Saint belief on heaven and on salvation from hellfire is already so expansive that it immediately begins to beg the question, does that mean, in some way, even those spirits that chose to follow Satan at first, could they somehow repent and change? And, you know, get back on the right track. In May of 1844, Joseph is giving a discourse, and he makes a reference to what it is that the devil did in the last days. He's quoting from John, well, sorry, he's quoting John in the Book of Revelation, talking about the last days, and he says, I will send to you another witness, and he shall preach this gospel to all nations, to the ends of the world.
Gerrit But woe to that man or woman, who shall lift up his hand, his or their hands, against God. For they are raising their arm against the power of God, and they will be cursed. But in these times, in the last days, there will be many false prophets arise, and false teachers, and deceive many. And they shall have many followers by their deceit. One of the things we've talked about a lot on this podcast is, don't be one of the people that's following a false prophet. President Nelson is the prophet of God on the earth right now. The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and the First Presidency, they're the only ones who hold the keys. So if you find yourself disregarding President Nelson because of something that some other person that you really like says, it's time to repent. Because that is not how God set up the kingdom in the last days. Let me go on. These people who deceive, they strive to get power and by their pernicious ways lead off many.
Gerrit But woe to that man or woman, who shall lift up his hand, his or their hands, against God. For they are raising their arm against the power of God, and they will be cursed. But in these times, in the last days, there will be many false prophets arise, and false teachers, and deceive many. And they shall have many followers by their deceit. One of the things we've talked about a lot on this podcast is, don't be one of the people that's following a false prophet. President Nelson is the prophet of God on the earth right now. The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and the First Presidency, they're the only ones who hold the keys. So if you find yourself disregarding President Nelson because of something that some other person that you really like says, it's time to repent. Because that is not how God set up the kingdom in the last days. Let me go on. These people who deceive, they strive to get power and by their pernicious ways lead off many.
Gerrit For brother Joseph Smith was chosen for the last dispensation or the seventh dispensation. The time the Grand Council set in heaven to organize this world, Joseph was chosen for the last and greatest prophet to lay the foundation of God's work. Therefore, the Jews asked John the Baptist if he was Elias or Jesus or that great prophet that was to come. And the devil or Lucifer also organized his kingdom in opposition to overthrow gods that he and he became a son of perdition. So here Joseph, first of all, pretty awesome talking about how Joseph was chosen in that Grand Council to be this prophet of the last dispensation. But that in that Council, or at least immediately thereafter that Council, the devil or Lucifer organized his kingdom to overthrow God's kingdom.
Gerrit For brother Joseph Smith was chosen for the last dispensation or the seventh dispensation. The time the Grand Council set in heaven to organize this world, Joseph was chosen for the last and greatest prophet to lay the foundation of God's work. Therefore, the Jews asked John the Baptist if he was Elias or Jesus or that great prophet that was to come. And the devil or Lucifer also organized his kingdom in opposition to overthrow gods that he and he became a son of perdition. So here Joseph, first of all, pretty awesome talking about how Joseph was chosen in that Grand Council to be this prophet of the last dispensation. But that in that Council, or at least immediately thereafter that Council, the devil or Lucifer organized his kingdom to overthrow God's kingdom.
Gerrit And that's what made him a son of perdition. He, this direct rebellion against God. This question is one that's asked even in the early church. And it's asked enough that Joseph eventually has to correct some false doctrine. Now, when we say, I think it's safe to say that the church doesn't have expansive teachings on whether or not, you know, Lucifer can repent or whether or not the, I mean, that's, it's not one of the articles of faith, okay? It's not one of the things that we talk about. And at least what Joseph Smith says in 1833 is that it has not been fully revealed. But surprisingly, in 1833, just like in 2025, the fact that something hasn't been revealed doesn't stop people from teaching it like they know it. And here is the letter that Joseph writes to church leaders in Jackson County, Missouri, in June of 1833.
Gerrit And that's what made him a son of perdition. He, this direct rebellion against God. This question is one that's asked even in the early church. And it's asked enough that Joseph eventually has to correct some false doctrine. Now, when we say, I think it's safe to say that the church doesn't have expansive teachings on whether or not, you know, Lucifer can repent or whether or not the, I mean, that's, it's not one of the articles of faith, okay? It's not one of the things that we talk about. And at least what Joseph Smith says in 1833 is that it has not been fully revealed. But surprisingly, in 1833, just like in 2025, the fact that something hasn't been revealed doesn't stop people from teaching it like they know it. And here is the letter that Joseph writes to church leaders in Jackson County, Missouri, in June of 1833.
Gerrit The letter has a lot of things like, oh, tell so and so to buy this property, tell so and so that this is what his job is. It's doing a lot of housekeeping things. But this is the part that's pertinent to what we're talking about. Say to the brethren, Hewlett's and to all others, that the Lord never authorized them to say that, the devil nor his angels nor the sons of perdition should ever be restored. For their state of destiny was not revealed to man, is not revealed, nor ever shall be revealed. Now, this is 1833, so at this point Joseph has had the great vision in 1832. He saw outer darkness. He saw the telestial kingdom. He saw the terrestrial kingdom. He saw the celestial kingdom. And so Joseph, post-vision, is saying this.
Gerrit The letter has a lot of things like, oh, tell so and so to buy this property, tell so and so that this is what his job is. It's doing a lot of housekeeping things. But this is the part that's pertinent to what we're talking about. Say to the brethren, Hewlett's and to all others, that the Lord never authorized them to say that, the devil nor his angels nor the sons of perdition should ever be restored. For their state of destiny was not revealed to man, is not revealed, nor ever shall be revealed. Now, this is 1833, so at this point Joseph has had the great vision in 1832. He saw outer darkness. He saw the telestial kingdom. He saw the terrestrial kingdom. He saw the celestial kingdom. And so Joseph, post-vision, is saying this.
Gerrit Their state of destiny was not revealed to man, is not revealed, nor ever shall be revealed. Save to those who are made partakers thereof. Now that, oh boy, yeah, that's spicy. Sometimes you want to learn by experience. I'm guessing in this one, you do not. Consequently, so again, what's going on? Clearly this brother Hewlett, brother Hewlett's, has been saying that even the devils can be redeemed. And Joseph is correcting him. Those who teach this doctrine have not received it from the Spirit of the Lord. Truly, brother Oliver Cowdery declared it to be the doctrine of devils. We therefore command that this doctrine be taught no more in Zion.
Gerrit Their state of destiny was not revealed to man, is not revealed, nor ever shall be revealed. Save to those who are made partakers thereof. Now that, oh boy, yeah, that's spicy. Sometimes you want to learn by experience. I'm guessing in this one, you do not. Consequently, so again, what's going on? Clearly this brother Hewlett, brother Hewlett's, has been saying that even the devils can be redeemed. And Joseph is correcting him. Those who teach this doctrine have not received it from the Spirit of the Lord. Truly, brother Oliver Cowdery declared it to be the doctrine of devils. We therefore command that this doctrine be taught no more in Zion.
Gerrit We sanction the decision of the bishop and his council in relation to this doctrine being a bar of communion. So this is a big enough problem. Enough people are teaching this as though it's true that the bishop in Zion in Missouri has actually had to try to discipline people for teaching it and they're still teaching it. And Joseph is sanctioning the idea. Listen, if you're going to continue to openly teach this doctrine, which has never been revealed, then you are not worthy to have the sacrament, or you're not worthy to be in full communion with the church. They don't have all the different levels of discipline that we do today. But it's clearly a big enough issue that Joseph has to write and say, Hey, stop teaching this.
Gerrit We sanction the decision of the bishop and his council in relation to this doctrine being a bar of communion. So this is a big enough problem. Enough people are teaching this as though it's true that the bishop in Zion in Missouri has actually had to try to discipline people for teaching it and they're still teaching it. And Joseph is sanctioning the idea. Listen, if you're going to continue to openly teach this doctrine, which has never been revealed, then you are not worthy to have the sacrament, or you're not worthy to be in full communion with the church. They don't have all the different levels of discipline that we do today. But it's clearly a big enough issue that Joseph has to write and say, Hey, stop teaching this.
Gerrit It hasn't been revealed. It won't be revealed. Stop teaching it. I thought it might be helpful also then, since we're talking about Doctrine and Covenants Section 76, to go see the way that Joseph talks about perdition and the sons of perdition in his 1843 rewriting of Doctrine and Covenants Section 76 when he writes it into the poetic form. That would be great. Because this is kind of, you could at least say, well, this is a, you know, what is Joseph thinking later on, after many, many, many more revelations that take place. And so let's go take a look at that. This is gonna sound pretty similar to what's in your scriptures, Doctrine and Covenants Section 76, but Joseph rewrites it into poetic verse, and then it's published in the Times and Seasons, 1843. And I saw and bear record of warfare in heaven, for an angel of light in authority great rebelled against Jesus and sought for his power, but was thrust down to woe from his godified state.
Gerrit It hasn't been revealed. It won't be revealed. Stop teaching it. I thought it might be helpful also then, since we're talking about Doctrine and Covenants Section 76, to go see the way that Joseph talks about perdition and the sons of perdition in his 1843 rewriting of Doctrine and Covenants Section 76 when he writes it into the poetic form. That would be great. Because this is kind of, you could at least say, well, this is a, you know, what is Joseph thinking later on, after many, many, many more revelations that take place. And so let's go take a look at that. This is gonna sound pretty similar to what's in your scriptures, Doctrine and Covenants Section 76, but Joseph rewrites it into poetic verse, and then it's published in the Times and Seasons, 1843. And I saw and bear record of warfare in heaven, for an angel of light in authority great rebelled against Jesus and sought for his power, but was thrust down to woe from his godified state.
Gerrit Now, think about that. What a phrase to use. A godified state. In the manuscript, it may have been that Joseph did not intend godified. So before anyone rushes out, in the manuscript, it actually reads deified, which is like godified. But anyway. And the heavens all wept, and the tears dropped like dew, that Lucifer, son of the morning, had fell, yea, is fallen, is fallen, and become, oh, alas, the son of perdition, the devil of hell. And while I was yet in the spirit of truth, the commandment was, write ye the vision all out, for Satan, old serpent, the devils for war, and yet will encompass the saints round about. And I saw, too, the suffering and misery of those overcome by the devil in warfare and fight, in hellfire and vengeance, the doom of the damned.
Gerrit Now, think about that. What a phrase to use. A godified state. In the manuscript, it may have been that Joseph did not intend godified. So before anyone rushes out, in the manuscript, it actually reads deified, which is like godified. But anyway. And the heavens all wept, and the tears dropped like dew, that Lucifer, son of the morning, had fell, yea, is fallen, is fallen, and become, oh, alas, the son of perdition, the devil of hell. And while I was yet in the spirit of truth, the commandment was, write ye the vision all out, for Satan, old serpent, the devils for war, and yet will encompass the saints round about. And I saw, too, the suffering and misery of those overcome by the devil in warfare and fight, in hellfire and vengeance, the doom of the damned.
Gerrit For the Lord said, the vision is further, so write. For thus saith the Lord, now concerning all those, who know of my power and partake of the same, and suffer themselves, that they be overcome by the power of Satan despising my name. Defying my power and denying the truth, they are they of the world or of men most forlorn, the sons of perdition, of whom I say, were better for them that they'd never been born. They're vessels of wrath and dishonor to God, doomed to suffer his wrath in the regions of woe through the terrific night of eternities round, with the devil of all of his angels and all of his angels below, of whom it is said, no forgiveness is given in this world alas, nor the world that's to come. For they denied the Spirit of God after having received it, and misery is their doom.
Gerrit For the Lord said, the vision is further, so write. For thus saith the Lord, now concerning all those, who know of my power and partake of the same, and suffer themselves, that they be overcome by the power of Satan despising my name. Defying my power and denying the truth, they are they of the world or of men most forlorn, the sons of perdition, of whom I say, were better for them that they'd never been born. They're vessels of wrath and dishonor to God, doomed to suffer his wrath in the regions of woe through the terrific night of eternities round, with the devil of all of his angels and all of his angels below, of whom it is said, no forgiveness is given in this world alas, nor the world that's to come. For they denied the Spirit of God after having received it, and misery is their doom.
Gerrit And denying the only begotten God, and crucifying him to themselves as they do, and openly put him to shame in their flesh, by the gospel they cannot repentance renew. They are they who must go to that great lake of fire, which burneth with brimstone yet never consumes, and dwell with the devil and angels of his, while eternity goes and eternity comes. They are they who must groan through the great second death, and are not redeemed in the time of the Lord, while all the rest are through the triumph of Christ, made partakers of grace by the power of his word. The mystery of godliness truly is great, the past and the present and what is to be, and this is the gospel glad tidings to all, which the voice from the heaven bore record to me.
Gerrit And denying the only begotten God, and crucifying him to themselves as they do, and openly put him to shame in their flesh, by the gospel they cannot repentance renew. They are they who must go to that great lake of fire, which burneth with brimstone yet never consumes, and dwell with the devil and angels of his, while eternity goes and eternity comes. They are they who must groan through the great second death, and are not redeemed in the time of the Lord, while all the rest are through the triumph of Christ, made partakers of grace by the power of his word. The mystery of godliness truly is great, the past and the present and what is to be, and this is the gospel glad tidings to all, which the voice from the heaven bore record to me.
Gerrit So it's pretty expansive there, that Joseph is making very clear that these sons of perdition, eternities upon eternities, don't have the ability to repent. Joseph is going to make a reference to this as well, in the well-known King Follett sermon, where he's going to talk about those who become perdition. He says, all sins and blasphemy were to be forgiven, except for the sin against the Holy Ghost. God has made a provision for every spirit in the eternal world. And the spirit of our friend should be searched out and saved. Any man that has a friend in eternity can save him if he has not committed the unpardonable sin. He cannot be damned throughout all eternity.
Gerrit So it's pretty expansive there, that Joseph is making very clear that these sons of perdition, eternities upon eternities, don't have the ability to repent. Joseph is going to make a reference to this as well, in the well-known King Follett sermon, where he's going to talk about those who become perdition. He says, all sins and blasphemy were to be forgiven, except for the sin against the Holy Ghost. God has made a provision for every spirit in the eternal world. And the spirit of our friend should be searched out and saved. Any man that has a friend in eternity can save him if he has not committed the unpardonable sin. He cannot be damned throughout all eternity.
Gerrit There is a possibility of escape in a little time. If a man has knowledge, he can be saved. If he's been guilty of great sins, he's punished for it. When he consents to obey the Gospel, whether alive or dead, he is saved. His own mind damns him. This is where we get the great line from Joseph. I have no fear of hell fire that don't exist. Right? Everyone's always condemning Joseph to hell. And he's like, well, jokes on you. It doesn't actually exist. No man can commit the unpardonable sin until he receives the Holy Ghost. All will suffer until they obey Christ himself. Even the devil said, I am a savior and can save all and rose up in rebellion against God and was cast down. Jesus Christ will save all except the sons of perdition. Now, again, this is this radical Latter-day Saint theology. Not that Jesus Christ can save all.
Gerrit There is a possibility of escape in a little time. If a man has knowledge, he can be saved. If he's been guilty of great sins, he's punished for it. When he consents to obey the Gospel, whether alive or dead, he is saved. His own mind damns him. This is where we get the great line from Joseph. I have no fear of hell fire that don't exist. Right? Everyone's always condemning Joseph to hell. And he's like, well, jokes on you. It doesn't actually exist. No man can commit the unpardonable sin until he receives the Holy Ghost. All will suffer until they obey Christ himself. Even the devil said, I am a savior and can save all and rose up in rebellion against God and was cast down. Jesus Christ will save all except the sons of perdition. Now, again, this is this radical Latter-day Saint theology. Not that Jesus Christ can save all.
Gerrit Not that, that, oh, you know, if Jesus wanted to, he could save everyone. From eternal hellfire, Jesus is going to save everyone except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? They must receive the Holy Ghost and have the heavens opened unto them and know God and then sin against him. And this kind of goes to my point and where we kind of loop back around and we begin to intersect with Aquinas. Where, when we talk about sinfulness in this world, I mean, we all know people that sin. Now, this is my opinion here. So this is not, you know, you can take, give this as much credit as you give Thomas Aquinas.
Gerrit Not that, that, oh, you know, if Jesus wanted to, he could save everyone. From eternal hellfire, Jesus is going to save everyone except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? They must receive the Holy Ghost and have the heavens opened unto them and know God and then sin against him. And this kind of goes to my point and where we kind of loop back around and we begin to intersect with Aquinas. Where, when we talk about sinfulness in this world, I mean, we all know people that sin. Now, this is my opinion here. So this is not, you know, you can take, give this as much credit as you give Thomas Aquinas.
Gerrit My opinion is that they, the fallen spirits, including the devil, they can't repent and they can't change because repentance and change is necessitated by an increase of knowledge. Right? So I'm a degenerate crook and a thief, and I break into everybody's houses. I'm breaking into Richard's house right now under the pretext of this podcast recording, stealing everything that he has. Every Oklahoma state burnt orange thing, I can get out into my car.
Gerrit My opinion is that they, the fallen spirits, including the devil, they can't repent and they can't change because repentance and change is necessitated by an increase of knowledge. Right? So I'm a degenerate crook and a thief, and I break into everybody's houses. I'm breaking into Richard's house right now under the pretext of this podcast recording, stealing everything that he has. Every Oklahoma state burnt orange thing, I can get out into my car.
Richard Burnt orange would be Texas.
Richard Burnt orange would be Texas.
Gerrit Oh, sorry.
Richard Yeah, no.
Gerrit Oh, sorry.
Richard Yeah, no.
Gerrit What kind of orange are you?
Gerrit What kind of orange are you?
Richard Obnoxiously loud orange.
Richard Obnoxiously loud orange.
Gerrit Okay, loud orange.
Gerrit Okay, loud orange.
Richard Yeah, very loud.
Richard Yeah, very loud.
Gerrit Very neon, not neon.
Gerrit Very neon, not neon.
Richard It's not neon.
Gerrit It's not Tennessee.
Richard It's not neon.
Gerrit It's not Tennessee.
Richard No, but it is in your face. Burnt is a...
Richard No, but it is in your face. Burnt is a...
Gerrit It's a little soft.
Richard It's an earthier tone.
Gerrit It's a little soft.
Richard It's an earthier tone.
Gerrit Yeah, I think that's what we're going for. But if I get touched by the Holy Spirit, it might cause me to repent as I see Jesus as my Savior and I ask God to forgive me. When we talk about people in this world repenting, it is almost always surrounding the idea of knowledge, to the point where we regularly say things like, if only she knew that she was a daughter of her Heavenly Father, she wouldn't act like that.
Gerrit Yeah, I think that's what we're going for. But if I get touched by the Holy Spirit, it might cause me to repent as I see Jesus as my Savior and I ask God to forgive me. When we talk about people in this world repenting, it is almost always surrounding the idea of knowledge, to the point where we regularly say things like, if only she knew that she was a daughter of her Heavenly Father, she wouldn't act like that.
Richard Well, I mean, for sure, right? I mean, like...
Richard Well, I mean, for sure, right? I mean, like...
Gerrit If there was no veil.
Gerrit If there was no veil.
Richard Yeah, I mean, Jesus on the cross is a perfect example of that.
Richard Yeah, I mean, Jesus on the cross is a perfect example of that.
Gerrit If there was no veil, imagine that there's no veil of forgetfulness, and all of us remember with perfect certitude our pre-mortal life with God and Jesus. Would you still sin? Would you still have questions about how exactly ceilings are going to work in the next life? If you had no veil of forgetfulness and that you, for eons upon eons, knew that the entire purpose of this life was to come, get a body and be faithful, the whole reason there is a veil, or at least apparently, is so that you can be tried and be tested. But what if there wasn't a veil? What if you remembered right now listening to me, having spent billions upon billions, or whatever that number is, of years with your Heavenly Father?
Gerrit If there was no veil, imagine that there's no veil of forgetfulness, and all of us remember with perfect certitude our pre-mortal life with God and Jesus. Would you still sin? Would you still have questions about how exactly ceilings are going to work in the next life? If you had no veil of forgetfulness and that you, for eons upon eons, knew that the entire purpose of this life was to come, get a body and be faithful, the whole reason there is a veil, or at least apparently, is so that you can be tried and be tested. But what if there wasn't a veil? What if you remembered right now listening to me, having spent billions upon billions, or whatever that number is, of years with your Heavenly Father?
Gerrit It wouldn't be that hard to know what's right, would it? It wouldn't be that hard to have faith in what is to come because you knew God. You knew your Father perfectly. Well, such is the state of those fallen spirits, including Lucifer. They were already in the presence of God. There was no veil of forgetfulness. They, the veil is here in mortality. They knew God and knowing who their Father was. However many eons upon eons that they lived with him, they made a choice to rebel against him. So what knowledge could they now learn that would cause them to repent? In many ways, Aaron, what you said first is that, you know, they wouldn't, or at least your brother-in-law had said.
Gerrit It wouldn't be that hard to know what's right, would it? It wouldn't be that hard to have faith in what is to come because you knew God. You knew your Father perfectly. Well, such is the state of those fallen spirits, including Lucifer. They were already in the presence of God. There was no veil of forgetfulness. They, the veil is here in mortality. They knew God and knowing who their Father was. However many eons upon eons that they lived with him, they made a choice to rebel against him. So what knowledge could they now learn that would cause them to repent? In many ways, Aaron, what you said first is that, you know, they wouldn't, or at least your brother-in-law had said.
Gerrit In part, that's what I would say the reality is. They already have all knowledge. I mean, at least to the extent that a spirit can have it in the pre-mortal life. They already have a perfect knowledge of Jesus. Let's put it that way. They already have a perfect knowledge of Jesus. They already have a perfect knowledge of God, right? The devils also believe and tremble, right? And that knowledge did not change their behavior, nor does it change their behavior. So what exactly could happen that would change it? What knowledge is there that is greater than a perfect knowledge of God and Jesus? It's not a question of whether or not he's your father, not a question of whether or not Jesus is your Savior. Perfectly knowing that he's your Savior, perfectly knowing you still would, if you could, crucify him again.
Gerrit In part, that's what I would say the reality is. They already have all knowledge. I mean, at least to the extent that a spirit can have it in the pre-mortal life. They already have a perfect knowledge of Jesus. Let's put it that way. They already have a perfect knowledge of Jesus. They already have a perfect knowledge of God, right? The devils also believe and tremble, right? And that knowledge did not change their behavior, nor does it change their behavior. So what exactly could happen that would change it? What knowledge is there that is greater than a perfect knowledge of God and Jesus? It's not a question of whether or not he's your father, not a question of whether or not Jesus is your Savior. Perfectly knowing that he's your Savior, perfectly knowing you still would, if you could, crucify him again.
Gerrit I think that's why the depths of that depravity is such that there is no change. There's no ability to change. When Brigham Young in a sermon in Utah, he made reference to the fact that someone said that he would pray for, that he would pray if it would do any good for the devils in hell. And Brigham's response was, it is not for you to pray for them, because any damn to this becomes sons of perdition. You can pray for all the rest. You can pray for your persecutors, those that persecute you. But those that become sons of perdition, this is my testimony. He goes on to quote, Doctrine and Coven, section 17, not the last of all which is written in the vision. Though that is the greatest vision I ever knew delivered to any of the children of men, it incorporates more in a few pages than any other revelation I have any knowledge of. This is the gospel of salvation.
Gerrit I think that's why the depths of that depravity is such that there is no change. There's no ability to change. When Brigham Young in a sermon in Utah, he made reference to the fact that someone said that he would pray for, that he would pray if it would do any good for the devils in hell. And Brigham's response was, it is not for you to pray for them, because any damn to this becomes sons of perdition. You can pray for all the rest. You can pray for your persecutors, those that persecute you. But those that become sons of perdition, this is my testimony. He goes on to quote, Doctrine and Coven, section 17, not the last of all which is written in the vision. Though that is the greatest vision I ever knew delivered to any of the children of men, it incorporates more in a few pages than any other revelation I have any knowledge of. This is the gospel of salvation.
Gerrit This is our testimony. So, there are some references to it, but I think what we would say is Joseph says that the ultimate destiny is not revealed and that it is false doctrine for anyone to teach that they could in some way be redeemed. Personally, I don't comprehend how it would be possible, given the fact that with their perfect knowledge, they've already chosen against God. And that's how someone who's immortal becomes a son of perdition. It's not because you're a really bad person. It's not because you crossed against the light too many times. It's not because you just kept betting on the Bears to go to the playoffs. It feels like perdition, but it's not perdition.
Gerrit This is our testimony. So, there are some references to it, but I think what we would say is Joseph says that the ultimate destiny is not revealed and that it is false doctrine for anyone to teach that they could in some way be redeemed. Personally, I don't comprehend how it would be possible, given the fact that with their perfect knowledge, they've already chosen against God. And that's how someone who's immortal becomes a son of perdition. It's not because you're a really bad person. It's not because you crossed against the light too many times. It's not because you just kept betting on the Bears to go to the playoffs. It feels like perdition, but it's not perdition.
Richard I feel like Satan's got a better chance at repenting than the Bears making the playoffs.
Richard I feel like Satan's got a better chance at repenting than the Bears making the playoffs.
Gerrit Richard is a Bears fan. How do you become a son of perdition? Joseph explains it. You have to have a perfect knowledge of Jesus. You have to have the heavens open to you and see your Savior and know that he is Jesus and know that he died for you. And even knowing that, say I would, if I could, crucify you again. Now, it's hard to imagine that level of depravity. But for the purposes that we're talking about, I think in many ways, Aquinas, though wrong about what angels are and many other things, and not knowing about a pre-existence, he is right in the sense that once having made that choice with perfect knowledge, what other knowledge could they possibly receive that would change what it is they believe?
Gerrit Richard is a Bears fan. How do you become a son of perdition? Joseph explains it. You have to have a perfect knowledge of Jesus. You have to have the heavens open to you and see your Savior and know that he is Jesus and know that he died for you. And even knowing that, say I would, if I could, crucify you again. Now, it's hard to imagine that level of depravity. But for the purposes that we're talking about, I think in many ways, Aquinas, though wrong about what angels are and many other things, and not knowing about a pre-existence, he is right in the sense that once having made that choice with perfect knowledge, what other knowledge could they possibly receive that would change what it is they believe?
Gerrit I think we don't have to worry, as President Oaks said, right? That most of us should not be sitting up at night wondering whether or not they are about to become a son in perdition. That shouldn't be the fear that motivates you. But it is interesting how the theology of salvation that is given through the atonement of Jesus Christ and given clearly through the Prophet Joseph Smith, how it causes us to ask some of these deeper questions. And so hopefully, Erin, your brother-in-law, allows that question about salvation and about creation and about the pre-existence to work in him until he comes to realize that this really is Jesus Christ's church, that he is called prophets, and that the entire purpose of this world is for heavenly fathers, sons and daughters to become like he is.
Gerrit I think we don't have to worry, as President Oaks said, right? That most of us should not be sitting up at night wondering whether or not they are about to become a son in perdition. That shouldn't be the fear that motivates you. But it is interesting how the theology of salvation that is given through the atonement of Jesus Christ and given clearly through the Prophet Joseph Smith, how it causes us to ask some of these deeper questions. And so hopefully, Erin, your brother-in-law, allows that question about salvation and about creation and about the pre-existence to work in him until he comes to realize that this really is Jesus Christ's church, that he is called prophets, and that the entire purpose of this world is for heavenly fathers, sons and daughters to become like he is.
Gerrit So thank you so much for joining us.
Gerrit So thank you so much for joining us.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth Podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDuc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth Podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDuc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.
The answer, five ways
Who you ask changes what “Satan” even means- Who
- Thomas AquinasCatholic
- What Satan is
- A fallen angel. A pure spirit God created from nothing, never meant to have a body.
- Can he repent?
- No
- Why
- Angels chose with full knowledge, standing in God's presence. "The choice of a pure spirit is necessarily final and unchanging."
- Hear it
Quote board
Make a share card from any lineI have like a Maine November beach body.
It ended 15 minutes early and it still felt like we were in there for nine hours.
That is radical theology that we don't realize how radical it is.
Now you're thinking, Gerrit, you're not really answering the question. Well, welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast.
But if he's not, he's answering these questions and he gets none of the credit for it, if he is a false prophet.
But what made it radical was that Joseph is declaring that nearly everyone is going to go to a kingdom of glory, which, as President Oaks said recently in general conference, with exceptions, too few to mention.
Sometimes you want to learn by experience. I'm guessing in this one, you do not.
What knowledge is there that is greater than a perfect knowledge of God and Jesus?
I feel like Satan's got a better chance at repenting than the Bears making the playoffs.
Source shelf
14 sources cited on air · verses link to the scriptures, Joseph Smith’s documents to the Joseph Smith Papersscripture
Joseph Smith—History, Moroni's first appearance
Discussed on the premium side: an angel who says he lived 1,400 years ago and buried the plates himself is outside all Christian theology.
book
Thomas Aquinas on the angels and their sin (work not named on air)
A rational creature that is a creature with intellect and will can sin.
Aquinas argues angels were created with agency and could sin before they were confirmed in grace.
book
Thomas Aquinas, on the sins of pure spirits
These sins are two only, pride and envy.
With no bodies, fallen angels can commit only spiritual sins.
book
Augustine on angels created good (work not named on air)
Gerrit says Augustine makes the same point as Aquinas: God couldn't have created angels evil.
book
Thomas Aquinas, on the fallen angels' knowledge
The fallen angels are obstinate in evil, unrepentant, inflexibly determined in their sin. This follows from their nature as pure spirits, for the choice of a pure spirit is necessarily final and unchanging.
Fallen angels sinned knowing exactly what they were doing, so their choice is final.
revelation
D&C 76
Gerrit says its radical teaching is that nearly everyone goes to a kingdom of glory, not just that there are three kingdoms.
sermon
Dallin H. Oaks, recent general conference talk (title not named on air)
with exceptions, too few to mention.
Quoted for "with exceptions too few to mention"; Gerrit cites him again at the end on not lying awake worrying about perdition.
sermon
Joseph Smith discourse, Nauvoo, May 1844
The time the Grand Council set in heaven to organize this world, Joseph was chosen for the last and greatest prophet to lay the foundation of God's work.
Joseph chosen at the Grand Council in heaven; Lucifer organized his kingdom in opposition and became a son of perdition.
letter
Joseph Smith to church leaders in Jackson County, Missouri, June 1833
that the Lord never authorized them to say that, the devil nor his angels nor the sons of perdition should ever be restored. For their state of destiny was not revealed to man, is not revealed, nor ever shall be revealed.
Joseph backs the bishop's council in barring from communion those who kept teaching that the devils would be restored.
letter
Same letter, on Oliver Cowdery
Truly, brother Oliver Cowdery declared it to be the doctrine of devils. We therefore command that this doctrine be taught no more in Zion.
Oliver had called the teaching the doctrine of devils.
newspaper
"The Vision," D&C 76 in verse, Times and Seasons, 1843
for an angel of light in authority great rebelled against Jesus and sought for his power, but was thrust down to woe from his godified state.
Joseph's later poetic retelling; Gerrit notes the manuscript reads "deified" rather than "godified."
sermon
Joseph Smith, King Follett sermon, 1844
Jesus Christ will save all except the sons of perdition.
Also the source of "I have no fear of hell fire that don't exist."
scripture
James 2:19
The devils also believe and tremble
Knowledge of God didn't change the fallen spirits' behavior (identified, not cited on air).
sermon
Brigham Young sermon in Utah (date not named on air)
it is not for you to pray for them
Brigham answers someone who would pray for the devils in hell, and calls D&C 76 the greatest vision he knew of.
Are you smarter than an elders quorum lesson?
Pass to stamp your passportQuestion 1 of 8Score 0
What did the Idaho elders quorum teacher ask the class?
Fun with Numbers
This episode, counted from its transcript66:29long
17.9 minbefore the topic starts
14sources read or named
3scripture passages
4different years mentioned
0dollar amounts said
From 1832 to 1844
Every year mentioned in the episode. Tap one to jump to it.
Putting numbers to words
All 9,659 words of the automatic transcript, counted against a word list for each theme. It shows how much a theme comes up, not what was said about it. See the lists
What this episode talks about more than usual
- Prophets and priesthood34 mentions, 2.0 times the show’s usual rate
- Death and the afterlife23 mentions, 1.6 times the show’s usual rate
Names said most
Joseph counts any Joseph.
Joseph 37Satan 27Jesus Christ 22Moroni 6Brigham Young 2Russell M. Nelson 2
Signature words
Said often here and in few other episodes.
Aquinas 21perdition 19playoff 6orange 5creature 6eons 4
More from this episode
Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.
Claim check
What critics say, and what the episode foundAll Christians agree that angels are people who have died and gone to heaven.
The big news of D&C 76 is that there are three kingdoms.
Early Saints taught that even the devil would eventually be redeemed, so it must be doctrine.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.
Comment in Gospel Doctrine (without being a jerk about it)
Ready to copy into a lesson or a textThe radical part of D&C 76 isn't that there are three kingdoms. It's that nearly everyone, with exceptions too few to mention, ends up in a kingdom of glory.
Latter-day Saints are the only Christians who teach that angels are people: resurrected men like Moroni, who told Joseph he had buried the plates himself.
In 1833 Joseph Smith said the final destiny of the devil and his angels "was not revealed to man." When something isn't revealed, don't teach it as doctrine.
Repentance usually follows new knowledge, which may be why spirits who rebelled while knowing God perfectly can't change. As President Oaks said, most of us shouldn't lie awake worrying about it.
GamesQuick games from this episode.
Games
Low stakes. Except eternally.Ranking
Rank what's essential to your salvation
Tap them in order, most essential first.
Poll
Which is more likely?
Pick one. Richard already has.
Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.
Banter bin
The running jokes, for people who skip aheadThe 10-year planThe PhD was supposed to make Richard millions; the 10-year plan is now in its 24th year (1:01-1:10).
We're huge in EugeneAn apology to the millions of Oregon Ducks listeners: huge in Portland and Eugene, not as good in Corvallis (3:45-4:05).
The crack research staffP90X (or PX90, which is closer to what the podcast is) was released April 10, 2004, and became a phenomenon in 2010 (6:20-6:57).
The breathy anti-Mormon voiceListener kids love the special voices, especially this dark, sultry one (8:20-8:45).
The only true missionEvery missionary who writes in is in Pittsburgh, like more cowbell, and a couple were caught lying, including Richard's son (10:36-10:59).
Do you think faith in Jesus is important?The worst elders quorum lesson ever, in Richard's parents' ward in Idaho; everyone walked out like a boxer on a standing eight count (15:06-16:11).
Ham radiosThe ranking of things essential to your salvation: ham radios, then this question, then food storage, then the temple (18:25).
Gerrit never answers the question (quickly)"Well, welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast" (26:10).
Lucifer is Billy IdolAquinas's rebel angel has a Harley, a rebel yell and George Thorogood playing in the background (34:44-35:49).
The BearsBecoming a son of perdition isn't from betting on the Bears; Satan has a better chance of repenting than they have of making the playoffs (63:03, 64:00).
Ask your parentsEvery pop-culture reference, decoded.
Ask your parents
Every pop-culture reference, decoded for the teenage LitnersPhenomenal cosmic powers, itty bitty living spaceThe Genie in Disney's Aladdin (1992), voiced by Robin Williams.
Body by JakeJake Steinfeld's fitness brand and infomercials.
P90X (or PX90)A home workout program. Released 2004, peak craze around 2010, per the on-air lookup.
More cowbellA 2000 Saturday Night Live sketch.
ByzantiumThe Eastern Roman Empire, centered on Constantinople.
Highway to Heaven / Angels in the OutfieldAn '80s TV show and a baseball movie. Both put angels in human form.
The Kid with the Broken HaloA TV movie starring Gary Coleman as an angel.
Rebel Yell / Bad to the BoneBilly Idol (1983) and George Thorogood and the Destroyers (1982).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag
Your question could be next week’s episodeThis episode’s letter
I feel an enormous pressure to make this email clever or entertaining, of which I am neither. Nonetheless, I enjoy your podcast very much because Doctors Dirkmaat and LeDuc are both clever and entertaining.
From Aaron · read at
General ConferenceGeneral Conference talks that cite a scripture read in this episode.
In General Conference
Talks from the latest General Conference that cite a scripture this episode reads or names on airSummaries, themes and lessons for every talk are on What Did They Say?
Go deeperWhere to read more.
Go deeper
Deep dives the episode points towardMoroni's first visit, and why a resurrected man as an angel is as radical as the plates themselves (21:57).
The Hulets in 1833 Missouri: who was teaching that devils would be redeemed, and how the bishop's council responded (46:33).
D&C 76 next to "The Vision" poem, line by line, including "godified" versus "deified" (49:41).
Aquinas and Augustine on how angels created good could still choose evil (30:28).
The King Follett sermon on the unpardonable sin and what it takes to become a son of perdition (54:06).
SOT Litner · S5E2.