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The Dander Meter
S5E30 · Bad Sources and the Quorum of the Twelve Part 2
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Standard of Truth · Season 5 · Episode 30 · 1:13:49

Bad Sources and the Quorum of the Twelve Part 2

A late memoir about Brigham Young shutting a door and drawing the curtains is the kind of source the claims rest on, and Gerrit asks why no journal from the time says the same thing.

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The question ·

Were Brigham Young and the Twelve really cut off from the true priesthood, and was polygamy invented after Joseph Smith's death?

Gerrit

With the Gerrit Dander Meter now running, Kristy's Corner covers D&C 80 and Stephen Burnett, who later wrote that he'd been misled by Joseph. The mailbag brings Sister Merrick, Rob the bishop and his Yoo-hoo history, and Cynthia from Djibouti, whose sister left the Church but who found her own testimony growing as she studied. Then Gerrit returns to Jill's daughter's claims. He examines a late memoir accusing Brigham Young, the Cochranite theory, and the idea that the Church lost the priesthood, checks them against original conference minutes and journals, and warns that the argument would make D&C 132, the Twelve and dozens of witnesses all liars.

Who comes upBrigham YoungJoseph SmithStephen BurnettMartin HarrisLyman JohnsonHiram PageJacob CochranWilliam ClaytonSylvia SessionsMelissa LottGerald TannerSandra Tanner
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The Dander Meter

Gerrit lost the argument over doing a part two, and last episode rated an 11.

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Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the life and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise, and humor.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I am joined by my friend, Dr. Richard LeDuc.
Richard Hello, Gerrit. Thanks for having me back. This is an exciting part two.
Gerrit It means I lost. It means I lost the argument over whether or not we should continue responding to last week's email.
Richard We have implemented the Gerrit Dander Meter. The last episode, it was an 11.
Gerrit What's it out of 100?
Richard It's out of 10.
Gerrit Okay. So you're saying I was completely unhinged and throwing furniture around the room.
Richard I was afraid for my safety and the safety of my children.
Gerrit We weren't even at your house.
Richard No, I know. You're an hour and a way for an hour and a way an hour and an hour and a way.
Gerrit The Litners know how many, how many you who's away was I?
Richard I'll do a quick search, but I believe at least an hour and a half.
Gerrit Okay. How many, what did you ask Jeeves?
Richard I'm going to ask Jeeves how an hour and a way. But no, we are excited to get back into Bad Sources and the Quorum of the Twelve Part 2. But before that, Gerrit, it is time for Kristy's Corner.
Gerrit You know, one of our emails that we are going to read, the person asked for a good Kristy's Corner this week, but it was a week ago they sent the email. So even in our Kristy's Cornering, we are failing to deliver what it is that people want. So we're essentially providing no service to anyone. I don't know why I'm going to choose Doctrine and Covenants Section 80, but hey, the entire point of Kristy's Corner is if you want to look smart in Sunday School, right?
Richard But you're really pushing the listeners to the limits here, because 80, it's 77 through 80.
Gerrit I need them to wave down the teacher.
Richard But you have a Relief Society elders quorum. That was where you gave 76. Now we're giving 80. There's no, my sister is gonna have to raise her hand, she's gonna have to sit in the front, raise her hand immediately, and say, I have a comment on section 80.
Gerrit Yeah, you raise your hand, and the teacher says, did anyone have a chance to read the lesson this week?
Richard Straight up.
Gerrit And you don't even raise your hand. You just start talking.
Richard You just start talking. So that really is the, right. It's like getting on a subway in Beijing. You don't wave. You just go for it.
Gerrit You push in. Well, there's no room. Just keep pushing.
Richard Okay.
Gerrit Sure enough, you find it.
Richard That's it. All right.
Gerrit So section 80, I thought that I would spend time on. This is more of a, I think this is kind of a hate one. So maybe the Dander Meter is already percolating.
Richard Oh yeah. I mean, it's honest. In fairness, it's on a scale of one to 10. I feel like, I feel like you're right. I feel like it should be on a larger scale. It's like we're on kilometers. We need to be on centimeters.
Gerrit Well, I feel like, I feel like I will say, you know, it's 60 degrees Fahrenheit, but you're saying it's Celsius. That's what I'm... Yeah, Kelvin. Yeah, it's on the Kelvin scale. Section 80 is a revelation to Stephen Burnett. And the revelation tells him to go and preach the gospel wherever he should. And verse five says, Behold, this is the will of him who hath called you your redeemer, even Jesus Christ. So why do I want to spend any time on this? It's a very brief revelation because I want to give you a little bit of backstory on Stephen Burnett. We've actually referenced him multiple times on the podcast because he is the one who is going to apostatize in 1838, no longer remembering that he received the words of the Lord through Joseph Smith. He instead is not just going to apostatize, he is going to try to convince other people to leave the church as well.
Gerrit The letter that he's going to write is the thing that we've spent time on before in the church. He writes a letter to Lyman Johnson, who's one of his friends. He writes, this is again, April of 1838, My heart is sickened within me when I reflect upon the manner in which we, with many of this church, have been led and the losses which we have sustained all by the means of two men in whom we had placed implicit confidence. Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon are notorious liars. And I do not hesitate to affirm and can prove by a cloud of witnesses.
Richard So I will say, first of all, on Sidney, just hold out a minute.
Gerrit Yeah, okay, so Sidney Rigdon's not lying yet. But it's coming. It's coming, it's coming for ya. But, so here's the claim that he's making, pretty stark claim against Joseph Smith. But how do we know that Stephen Burnett is not being a, he's not being an honest broker? Because this is the letter in which he will claim this. I came to hear Martin Harris state in public that he never saw the plates with his natural eyes, only in vision or imagination, neither Oliver nor David. And also that the Eight Witnesses never saw them and hesitated to sign that instrument for that reason, but were persuaded to do it. The last pedestal gave way, in my view, our foundations was sapped and the entire superstructure fell in a heap of ruins.
Gerrit This is the person who's going to claim that he heard Martin Harris say that he never saw the plates, that Oliver Cowdery never saw the plates, and that David Whitmer also never saw the plates, and that the Eight Witnesses, who include Hyrum Smith and Joseph Smith Sr., all said that they never saw the plates. Now, that's in pretty stark contrast to all of the witnesses all affirming all throughout their lives that they in fact saw the plates. But sometimes Stephen Burnett's letter will be bandied about by people saying, yeah, Martin Harris said that he never even saw them. Well, clearly, this is not a very accurate letter. If he did hear someone say that, he couldn't possibly have been accurate in his hearing, because none of these witnesses themselves ever deny that they saw the plates.
Gerrit And some of them, like Hiram Page, will actually later expand upon what they said they saw. Hiram Page will say that not only did he have the eight witness experience where he lifted the plates and looked at them, but he will say that an angel will appear to him as well. So, far from denying that they ever saw the plates, they actually are going to reiterate that they saw the plates. So, as you read section 80, maybe what you can think is, here's a great example of someone who was favored enough by the Lord that the Lord is speaking directly to him through a revelation. Very few people get that opportunity. And yet, he still fell and becomes this raging apostate trying to take other people out of the church with him when he goes. So, that's my Kristy's Corner. Not very uplifting, but maybe it's where we're at this week.
Richard It's an interesting thing to bring up. And if my sister ever hopes to be the Stake Relief Society president, you gotta get in the front, raise your hand and read part of Stephen Burnett's letter.
Gerrit Yeah, and you don't even read the revelation. You just start reading his apostate letter.
Richard You hear that, sis? That's what you gotta do. Yeah.
Gerrit Be careful how you do it. You probably don't want to raise your hand and say, well, Martin Harris said that he never saw the place. You probably need to be very clear about what the allegations are.
Richard Yeah.
Gerrit That's what I would guess.
Richard Okay.
Gerrit Don't lead off in testimony meeting with that.
Richard Well, Gerrit, in the Phebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag, we start off with an email from a missionary, Sister Merrick. I'd love to be able to say I've been a listener since the beginning. Well, first of all, Sister, you would have been 15 or 16.
Gerrit The beginning of what? The beginning of time?
Richard I'd love to say I've been a listener from the beginning, but I'm ashamed to say I only found your podcast a year ago. Since then, I've gone back to listen to as many of the early episodes as I can to discover where the lore was written, such as Rachel's mum, Litner's, and the genesis of Richard's career as a bookie and so forth. That's funny. I often listen while working out and find myself shaking with laughter as I attempt to do a push-up. I wanted to let you know that even though I started listening while home in Australia, I've since left to go on my mission to the Adriatic North, just in case you noticed your Litner ship or your listenership in Australia take a sudden hit. Yes, we've gone from you and Wendy to one.
Gerrit Well, that's because of the whole magpies over there.
Richard I thought that they would have a better year.
Gerrit No, you alienated-
Richard The Collingswood magpies.
Gerrit You alienated Wendy's husband greatly. It was like you said, I don't even want Wendy's husband to listen.
Richard It's almost as though. Well, listeners in Croatia have had an unexplained spike. I know how important crunching the numbers can be. It sure is. For our advertising dollars.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard For all the ads we're putting out. This is the thing. We're hoping to do a spot with a local McDonald's in Zagreb, Croatia. We think that we've gotten. I've been there. I had a lettuce wrap, and I feel like there's a great opportunity for us there in Zagreb. I doubt I'm pronouncing that correctly.
Gerrit There's no possible way.
Richard I just wanted to thank you for the joy you provide me. Your self-deprecating humor is very much appreciated by this Australian, and I hope to be listening for many years to come, perhaps even one day listening to the polygamy episodes with my grandchildren. Your grandchildren's grandchildren's grandchildren.
Gerrit I'm going to have to teach my son to be a historian, and then have him get a Ph.D., and then have him do season 38.
Richard I would say none of my children are interested in business, so.
Gerrit You know what?
Richard No, they want to be actually successful, like attorneys and engineers and the like.
Gerrit At least they want to have jobs. My kids are like, I don't know. I mean, you're just going to keep paying for stuff, right?
Richard Yeah, the life of a historian or the career of a historian. You know what? I'm going to fund my entire family in perpetuity.
Gerrit Well, if only you knew the smog-like treasure that I lay upon each night as I hoard my gold coins from all of my filthy lucre.
Richard If you'd ever like to give a devotional to our mission via Zoom, we would absolutely love to have you. I'm sure all of your missionaries, all of our missionaries and your missionaries and all of the missionaries would be thrilled to learn about rice tariffs.
Gerrit Sounds like they're asking you to give a fireside to their missionaries.
Richard Well, they must have. Well, so it's Dear Doctors, Dirkmaat and LeDuc.
Gerrit Yeah, well, I'll let you take that one.
Richard You know what? I think that the spiritual thought that I gave at a Zoom conference in the latent zone of the latent mission is spread to Croatia and Australia. And yeah, the people cry out.
Gerrit We found out that a dear friend of ours was an MTC district leader. And we're still trying to figure out what to do with that information.
Richard You know what's funny is that we were sent a picture of a mail key when we found out.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard It was very funny.
Gerrit He sent a picture of a mail key and said, I held the keys. And you know, it's causing us to re-evaluate everything we know about Brian. I mean, now I'm like, well, maybe Brian's not the guy I thought he was. He seemed like a great guy, but now I know he was the MTC district leader.
Richard Yeah. Well, so is it reverence or, because it's obviously with great-
Gerrit I feel like Brian expects me to give him greater reverence now. That's what I feel.
Richard It is true. All of the questions that we receive by email, we now just copy and text and say, Brian, is it okay if we say this?
Gerrit Can we read it and then he lets us know.
Richard Yes. This next email comes to us from Rob. The only true and living history of You-hoo. I can't believe I'm actually sending this email as I am not currently pregnant nor am I at any risk of ever emailing you while in labor. I am always struck when the elements of my life collide as they did today. I'm a regular listener to the podcast. As a bishop, I find it a good source for sarcastic humor and epic rants. We are going to love this episode, Rob.
Gerrit I've got to stop. We can't do any more. I can't have people emailing in about, I love the rants.
Richard No, so here's the thing. I've tried to articulate this before.
Gerrit Let's just do townships again.
Richard We do have to get back to townships.
Gerrit At some point.
Richard Well, it's funny, actually. So my nephews were in town this last week, or I guess a couple of weeks ago or a month. I don't know. I saw them within the last year.
Gerrit Yeah. You don't even have nephews.
Richard So the one going on a mission to Independence, Missouri, French speaking, which is a lot of fun, that's Ben. I found out that my nephew Jack is actually a litner. He called himself a litner, which that's how you know, and he's going to BYU, Hawaii anyway. So shout out to Jack. Anyway, as we were, you know, discussing sundry matters and various issues, the topic of tariffs and rice tariffs did come up. Two of my children in the living room said, all right, I'm out, stood up and left. Yeah. My children hate me so much.
Gerrit Well, none of my kids listen to this podcast.
Richard No, but they actively go out of their way.
Gerrit So they're like taking out ads on Facebook saying, don't listen to the Standard of Truth podcast.
Richard Yeah, like Annika and Titus don't say, hey dad, I didn't listen today. My kids go out of my way, out of their way.
Gerrit Hey, did you spend some time with the podcast?
Richard Out of my way, out of their way, out of all of the ways.
Gerrit Well, there are epic rants. I don't know that I like them.
Richard Well, no, so I caused a tangent there myself. But essentially though, I've had many people, and by that I mean, no one's told me this, I just believe it myself, that on my mission I was attacked all the time, right? Every day, all the time, every day. And many of the listeners to the podcast have either been attacked or are being attacked or have family members that have been attacked. And they say things, especially see us later. It's a classic, right? Where we're going to kind of lean in to aspects of, you know, there are similarities, you know, to this email that we're going to get back into. But where a person says a thing and it just feels like it's garbage, feels like it's, but they don't, they don't have the knowledge or they've never heard of it or this or that. And so at least in the moment as they're being attacked, they don't have a way to do anything other than to bear a testimony, which is what you're supposed to do anyway. But then they hear you get on and say, I will not.
Richard And then you just, you give it to somebody that isn't going to listen anyway. And people stand up, you know, sick in the back of a wagon.
Gerrit And they shout her off for Israel.
Richard Everyone does. And so I know that you wish you were more like Jesus. We all do. But since you're not, I...
Gerrit So just lean into it? Well, just know. You're like, you're really bad at this. Keep doing that.
Richard Kidding aside, I have talked with lots of people about this. And it's like, yeah, man, I wish I knew these things to be able to say these things in the defense of the thing that they hold the most sacred. And so, yeah, sure. Sometimes you're Dander's up, but sometimes people like it. So there you go.
Gerrit Well, it sounds like Rob likes it.
Richard Well, Rob seems to.
Gerrit He said, I'm trying to rant more in my sacrament meeting talks. Thanks for the great example. See, this is exactly what can't happen.
Richard Well, so, yeah, so if you are still reading this email after, oh, so he sends us a clip to watch, which doesn't lend itself very well for-
Gerrit No, it's a video clip of Yogi Berra and the Pope endorsing Yoohoo, which is great, but also-
Richard I hope you will give me something really good for Kristy's quarter this week. Heaven knows, I will need help sounding smart.
Gerrit And so we did exactly the best thing, Rob. We gave you an answer a week after.
Richard Well, but if he's a listener all the time, he would have got, you know, done like my sister, raised his hand and read for seven minutes.
Gerrit He probably needed it last week for the Fifth Sunday lesson.
Richard Oh, that's a good point, actually. You did nothing for him there, that's for sure.
Gerrit Sorry, Rob.
Richard But the Kristy's Corner on Doctrine and Covenants 80 and Stephen Burnett and...
Gerrit Yeah, he can sound incredibly erudite.
Richard Yes, quite.
Gerrit Let me tell you something about this Stephen Burnett fellow.
Richard Quite, quite. This next email comes to us from Cynthia from Djibouti, Africa.
Gerrit We have long been attempting to expand our listenership in the Horn of Africa.
Richard I'm writing you from Djibouti, Africa, a small country in the Horn of Africa. Oh, there you go. Yes, quite. That's for me, because I don't know anything about history, I don't know anything about geography.
Gerrit I know very little about anything. It was a French Somaliland, actually.
Richard Oh, how about that?
Gerrit In the 1960s. I believe French is actually one of their official languages, French and Arabic.
Richard How about that? I'm not even a missionary. I actually pay for a subscription to your premium podcast. You know what, Cynthia, that's why we're reading your email.
Gerrit Yeah, I didn't know that, but yes.
Richard Well, that's why we think.
Gerrit That's why Richard's reading it.
Richard Yes. My husband is in the Foreign Service and works for the embassy, so he, my three sons and I, called Djibouti home for the past three years. We don't have a ward or even a branch here, but attend church at a generic chapel on a nearby military base where we can partock, partake of the sacrament. That was my impression of some type of a bird.
Gerrit Partock! I think that's a little rough. Go ahead.
Richard We're going to cut this out though, right?
Gerrit Yeah. Okay. Just like everything else.
Richard All right, cut, and here we go. And sing some hymns. Most of the time, it's usually just our family and one other guy, a contractor named Dave. Well, Dave...
Gerrit Shout out to Dave.
Richard Shout out to Dave, who sometimes is in Djibouti.
Gerrit Thanks for coming to church, sometimes.
Richard Did you ever serve on a military base on your mission?
Gerrit No. No, it was Wisconsin.
Richard No military bases? No powerful senators could pull that off?
Gerrit I feel like the nation was daring Canada. Come get us and start with Wisconsin.
Richard I did. I served in 29 Palms, and we would regularly attend services on the Marine base there. My favorite thing was a testimony meeting. There were about maybe 10 Marines that were there and going around, and everybody's bearing their testimony because it's like 10 Marines. A guy gets up and he's like, I might have mentioned this before. I love this. And he's like, sometimes the Lord taps you on the shoulder, and he taps you on the shoulder, and he taps you on the shoulder, and then he kicks you in the face. And I'm like, you know what?
Gerrit Sometimes he needs to.
Richard That's awesome.
Gerrit There are times that I've needed to be kicked in the face.
Richard Kicked in the face. Our time in Djibouti is ending though, so I wanted to take a moment. Thank you for the support you've provided me during our time here. Just to give you a little background and explain why your podcast is so important to me. My husband and I were married in the temple and have raised our kids in the church. However, over the past couple of years, my husband has become more and more critical of the church and has actively tried to dissuade my children and I from attending or believing in it. He is constantly texting, emailing or showing me articles or videos that disparage the church and or Joseph Smith. It has been a challenge trying to raise my kids in the faith while my husband, their father, is actively trying to pull them away from it. And what would be a challenging situation in any household is exacerbated by the fact that I don't have the support system of a ward, church leaders or family nearby to help. I am literally in the middle of a desert in Africa.
Richard My sister is the one who introduced me to your podcast after listening to a few episodes. I felt a sense of hope for my family and hadn't felt since, that I hadn't felt since my husband first started down his path. A few people I had spoken with about my problem, friends, a church leader when I was home for the summer, always advised me to rely on my testimony and the spirit to not engage with my husband and to definitely not go down the rabbit hole of church history. When I listened to your podcast, you addressed some of the exact arguments my husband had presented to me and you tackled them head on, using historical facts and documents to make a case against those arguments. You didn't shy away from church history, so I listened to your podcast and started studying church history more. You said in a podcast once that there are answers to these questions and as I started researching church history more, I discovered that you were right. My testimony was actually, has actually been strengthened, not winked, by the knowledge I have recently gained.
Richard So I just wanted to thank you for all that you're doing. Please keep it up. It's not always enough to tell our kids to only rely on their testimonies or the spirit when faced with tough questions and problems. The naysayers can't always know more about our history than we do, or they will continue to misinform and lead away members of the church, including our youth. So thanks to you guys and to the Standard of Truth Podcast for providing reasonable, thoughtful, historically based answers that don't replace our faithful testimonies, but reinforce them. With deepest gratitude, Cynthia.
Gerrit What a beautiful email. And I am very sorry to hear about the situation. I'm grateful that the podcast, Richard and I have been able to help in some way. And I'm glad that you have the faith and the fortitude that you didn't allow yourself to be easily swayed. And that as you studied, you know, more church history, or you found your testimony increasing rather than decreasing, that is a very, very difficult situation. One that I can't possibly fully comprehend. And I really just pray that our Heavenly Father will give you the strength to maintain your faith and to continue to help your kids as best you can. It really is a difficult thing. I don't know from personal experience. I just know from my multiple interactions with people that are going through similar experiences, that it becomes a very difficult thing when the place you looked for for support becomes a place that is now trying to tear down your faith.
Gerrit And that I know that that is very difficult. And you know, Cynthia's email is part of the reason why there's a Dander Meter, I think. Because, while we joke around a lot and part of that is to help people, you know, want to engage on some of these topics, part of it is just, it's our personalities and I love life and I love the gospel and I love joking around. I love sarcasm. The gospel, of course, is is deadly serious. And what the Lord Jesus Christ has done for us and what the Lord Jesus Christ continues to do through his prophets and apostles is very much a reality and a truth. And someday every person will know that Joseph Smith saw God in Jesus and that the revelations he gave were actually revelations from God.
Gerrit And so one of the few bombs that you can take away from a difficult situation like that is the sure knowledge that while our individual battles are are, you know, kind of in the balance and we don't really know whether this person will believe or this person will return to the fold in this life. What is not in the balance is the outcome of this war. We already know who wins in the end. The Lord Jesus Christ wins in the end. And the naysayers and the people who are allowing YouTube prophets to tell them what is true and what isn't. And they will eventually come to know what we know. And that is that Joseph was a prophet of God and that President Nelson is currently a prophet of God and that this church is God's true church on earth.
Gerrit I always think it's helpful when you are dealing with this kind of a difficulty to remember the truths that exist only inside of our church. People love to say, well, I'm just asking questions. I just, well, what about this or what about that? Did you know that Joseph Smith did this? Did you know Brigham Young that? I wonder why they're never asking the question. If this church is false, why did God create a world where there's so much suffering? This church is false. Why doesn't God love everyone? Oh, sure, you can say that God loves everyone. You can say those words. But the moment this church stops being true, you live in a world where God created almost everyone out of nothing and gave them an immortal spirit, knowing that they would writhe in the agonies of hell forever.
Gerrit And God could have stopped that. He could have decided to not do it, but he did it anyway. So I think it's a good thing to fall back on. The question is the truths that we do have. We don't have every answer to every question from history. Historians don't have every answer to every question because we don't have any sources for some questions. When did the angel of, you know, when did the devil appear to Joseph Smith as an angel of light? When did that happen? I don't know because Joseph only mentions it one time, doesn't provide a date for it, and we have no other sources that reference it. So as a historian, I can't even tell you when Joseph is saying that that happened. Lots of things we don't have answers for.
Gerrit But we cannot allow the things that we don't have answers for to trump the most important answers. If God is the God that we want to worship, then the teachings and revelations of Joseph Smith must be true. And the moment he stops being a prophet, well you get to believe that God created billions upon billions upon billions of people. Out of nothing, they didn't exist before. And he gave them an immortal spirit, knowing that they would come to this horrible earth, where they would suffer in a terrible mortality, which is 99% of people on earth are gonna have a very rough life. And luckily, after they go through that horrible life, they then get to writhe in the agonies of eternal hell forever.
Gerrit And that's what you then get to believe. Or you can just believe that God doesn't exist at all. In which case, you don't have evidence for that either. And you're back to wondering, why does anything exist at all? And you can say, well, I believe in science. Yeah, you can say it right up until science doesn't actually explain many of the things. Scientists can't even explain why the universe is expanding faster and faster and faster. They have to invent things like, well, there must be dark matter and dark energy that we can't measure, that we can't prove, that we can't interact with, but it must exist to explain things that I can't explain. So, I think that even though you're going through a very difficult situation, I am inspired by your faith, and I hope that you will allow the truth that you have to help buoy you up in those difficult interactions.
Richard I think it's a beautiful sentiment. Now on with the part two.
Gerrit Oh, boy. There really shouldn't even have been a part one, and now there's a part two. So, if you haven't listened, please go back and listen to part one, where we're talking about these claims that were made to one of our listeners by one of their children, who were alleging that the church was derailed in its early days by sin, and that the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles further derailed it, and that that later was manifested through spiritual wifery and polygamy. So, let's get back to where we were. We talked a little bit about the misunderstanding about whether or not the Twelve were present at the Isaac Morley Farm, but let's talk more about this. If you recall, this letter claimed that Brigham Young and the later Twelve, after Joseph died, were not part of the group at the Isaac Morley Farm.
Gerrit That's what we talked about last time. They instead decided to be lazy and not seek after the endowments of powers instructed by Joseph prior to their missions. Instead, they discovered spiritual wifery polygamy based off the Cochranites in Massachusetts, were heavily into masonry, and devised a plan to infiltrate the church with it while serving missions in England, where they were already having affairs with women on their missions. This is documented in multiple journals. So that's what's part of this email. Oh no, Jill's daughter, you have made the fatal flaw. This is documented in multiple journals. You will notice there is not a citation to a single one of them. And why do you think there isn't a citation to a single one of them? Because it's certainly not documented in any of the Quorum of the Twelve's journals.
Gerrit Nor is it documented in any other contemporary journal of the time. The overstatement of sources is part of the way that people attempt to sway people's testimonies by claiming it's there. It's in an original journal. Okay, which journal? I mean, it's there though, like I know it is, because I've read it. And it's like, it's in multiple journals. I mean, they didn't even just say it's in one journal. What if it just said it's in one journal?
Richard It's in every journal.
Gerrit It's in multiple journals.
Richard There's not a journal where this isn't.
Gerrit It's in all the journals.
Richard It's in my journal.
Gerrit It's in Gerrit's journal. Every journal. It's in my journal. It's in your journal. Every journal that's ever been a journal. Is there a source that claims that? Yeah, there's a source. From the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, from a letter dated August 24th, 1891. So, 50 years after the events we're talking about, there is someone who happens to be a 70 in the RLDS Church, which at the time is leading a national campaign against our church, claiming that it's a false church because it practiced polygamy, who will claim that they witnessed improper conduct on the part of Brigham Young when they were in England and in Nauvoo.
Richard Oh.
Gerrit Should we read that journal, even though it's a letter written 50 years later, but it's a journal? Again, I see the problem is I'm getting-
Richard Yeah, no, you're getting your danders up.
Gerrit My danders up, but my danders up-
Richard Because they're saying that-
Gerrit And look, obviously, I don't think that your daughter went and researched all this for themselves. They clearly didn't research the June 3rd conference of 1831 because if you would have typed it into the Joseph and the Papers website, it would have pulled up and then all you'd need is a list of the members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and you'd know that some of them were there.
Richard I feel like you could go to Lighthouse Ministries and get that information.
Gerrit You probably could. Gerald and Sandra Tanner are like, look, we're not going to make that argument. This is what Stafford claimed 50 years later. I'm fully convinced as I was then that Brigham Young was an adulterer in Manchester, England. In the fall and winter and the spring of 1840 and 41, Elizabeth Mayer is the person with whom Brigham was then committing adultery. My reasons are these. We lived next door to her and under the same roof. And this Elizabeth Mayer had a father and a brother who were gardeners. And they took their dinners as they worked a long piece from the home. And after they had left for work, Brigham would step into the house. And she would lock the door and pull the blinds and the curtains, which to me was strange. He never came to see our folks, although not five steps apart. And when he left, he was always in a hurry. And she never came to the door with him when he was leaving. This same thing occurred in Nauvoo with a woman and Brigham. Her name was Greenow. And her son was about my age. And we was always driven out when Brigham was home.
Gerrit The door was shut and the curtains lowered. I was puzzled to know why he acted so if he had a good heart and was engaged in the business of teaching the truth, why drive the boys out? Why not come also and see my mother only a few steps apart? I am now and was then satisfied that he was an adulterer. The seeds of polygamy was sown and Brigham the sower. I was present at a meeting in the Grove in Nauvoo about three weeks before Joseph and Hyrum were murdered. When Joseph made a public statement in the presence of 3,000 people that polygamy had been practiced secretly by someone that had crept into the church and secretly, and it must be put down speedily or the church will be driven from Nauvoo. So now that is a source. But it is certainly not a journal and it is certainly not multiple journals. And the author who is saying that they're a schoolboy when they're in Nauvoo clearly can't be very old at the time that this took place.
Gerrit This event that they are remembering from 50 years ago, more than 50 years ago. But it's certainly not a demonstration of adultery being practiced, which again, you go back to what the email claims. The email claims it's documented in multiple journals, except it's documented in zero journals. Aside from the fact that it's in none of them, it's in multiple journals. This further, you know, goes on. If we were to go back to that first paragraph, maybe I'll go back to that. Or you know what, let's talk about the Cochranites. This argument that there's a group of religious zealots, you might call them, the fall guy by the name of Jacob Cochran in 1818 and 1819. And he establishes this church, and the reason why people make this connection and this claim is that he introduces something called spiritual wifery in his group, where people have multiple sexual partners.
Gerrit So the claim that's being made in this email is that they discovered spiritual wifery and polygamy based off the Cochranites in Massachusetts. This actually demonstrates another issue, and that is that wherever she's taking her source from, she's not separating it out correctly, because the Cochranites had all of their membership in What is Today Maine. But in 1818 and 1819, What is Today Maine was part of Massachusetts. So, in order to make the argument they're making, they say here like, oh, it was based off the Cochranites in Massachusetts, except everywhere you're talking about that they're going on their missions is actually Maine, not Massachusetts, which is another demonstration of a lack of historical acumen here.
Gerrit But Jacob Cochran establishes this group. What connection is there to Mormons? Well, there isn't any. In fact, I asked ChatGPT to tell me the number of Latter-day Saints that are known Cochranites who convert. And ChatGPT told me that there were lots of them. And I said, okay, give me some names. So it gave me a name, a single name. And I said, what's the source for the fact that they were a member of the Cochranites? And then it responded by saying, actually, there aren't any sources. Where does this connection come from? Now, look, that Latter-day Saints preached among people that used to be followers of Jacob Cochran. We know that because Samuel Smith, who is not readily associated with the practice of polygamy, talks about it in his missionary journals from 1832. But that this idea was invented because there was this connection between the two groups.
Gerrit This is an idea that's really promoted by a couple who used to be members of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but broke away from that group following what they saw as doctrinal drift, and they're part of the larger restoration movement. They wrote a series of books intended to prove that Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy and that it was an invention of Brigham Young. Now, neither one of them are historians, and you can tell very quickly as you're going through their books, just how weak the arguments are. So in this allegation, proximity is the same thing as actuality. If you're close, if you happen to travel through the neighborhood of Socko, Maine, you're also practicing spiritual wifery.
Gerrit Like you get there, they greet you at the town, they say, hey, how are you doing? I've got a Book of Mormon here. Well, I guess here's your third wife. And that's how it's presented. So let me take from their book. Brigham Young had a thorough knowledge of Cochranism, for he made several missionary journeys through the Cochranite territory from Boston to Saco. Now that, first of all, wildly overstates how many Cochranites there are, especially in the early 1830s. He attended the 1835 church conference in Saco, Maine. Brigham chose to travel alone in the Cochranite territory instead of going with another elder. Well, that, I mean, clearly proves it. There's the proof right there. And as they write, why did Brigham insist on traveling alone in an area where adulterous temptations were sure to befall any lonely elder?
Gerrit You know, and then even this terrible author with their terrible sources and their terrible arguments, even they have to admit the whole point is there's going to be a conference. The report for the June 1834 church conference in Saco stated that a numerous concourse had assembled, although Brigham didn't go to the 1834 conference. But the entire point is that he went there for adultery, right? But he wasn't there.
Richard He's lazy.
Gerrit He was on a mission of the Eastern States from May to September 1835. Brigham continued to work in that area and reported that he'd been to a conference in Maine on August 12th and 13th where 52 members of the Saco branch attended. Brigham's presence in and around Saco during the Cochranite era, and it's not during the Cochranite era. In fact, the Cochranite era is over by 1819. But hey, let's just start throwing things up and saying that they're sources, is evidence that he was very familiar with Cochranite polygamy. So these are the kinds of things that sound like they're an argument. Why would Brigham travel by himself if it wasn't to go commit adultery? Well, I mean, we've got numerous times that Joseph Smith travels by himself. Are we saying that every time he does that it's so he can go commit adultery? I mean, whenever anyone says, it stands to reason, what they mean is, I do not have sources.
Gerrit A lot of this whole Cochranite conspiracy claim comes from, you know, and again, these authors, they talk about historian GT. Ridlon Senior, who wrote a history of the Saco Valley settlements, and so they he will say that that Jacob Cochran was like a John the Baptist to the Mormon movement. Well, there's multiple problems with this statement. The first being that GT. Ridlon is not a historian. So again, you can call someone a historian just by saying, he's a historian, but they don't have any training in history, and in fact, GT stands for Gideon Tibbets, who actually is a pastor.
Gerrit He's a Baptist minister. So we're clearly getting a completely unbiased account from someone writing a history decades and decades and decades and decades after the events. And they just so happen to have negative things to say about Latter-day Saints at a time when everyone in the country hates Latter-day Saints. He's not a historian. He's a Baptist minister. But you'll notice these authors who this person is taking their email from, I think, don't bother to tell people that. Don't you think it's kind of important information to know that the person who's claiming that there's a connection between the Cochranites and the Mormons is a Baptist minister who is preaching against both groups? I mean, that's basic need-to-know information. Unless, of course, you're not trying to let your readers know.
Gerrit Now, I want to kind of go back. I mean, I know I'm bouncing around a little bit. But that's what happens when, where are we at on the meter, Richard?
Richard Well, so again, we adjusted the meter. We didn't feel that the meter that we had, one to ten, provided us the level of precision needed. We went to one to a million. I believe you are north of 900,000.
Gerrit Wow, that's, wow, I really need to dial it back.
Richard Or dial it up. Or dial it perfectly.
Gerrit If I could get it down to the 700,000, that would be great. I want to go back to the first paragraph because this claim that the church lost its, it lost its blessing and it dropped from a Melchizedek priest to an Aaronic priest. There is no Joseph Smith source that says that. So how does this person know that? Look, people come up with theories all the time. They always come up with theories to justify why they are the new real leader of the church because the church became fallen. But the church didn't just change its name on a whim. I think this person is trying to argue that the church changed its name from Church of Christ to Church of Latter-day Saints because it was then a fallen church. The Melchizedek priest was taken. Anyone who had the Melchizedek priest ordained upon them lost it, is what the claim is. Well, if that were true, then why is Joseph Smith ordaining people to the Melchizedek Priesthood after that meeting, and after the church's name change?
Gerrit In particular, since this person seems to be really hung up on Brigham Young not having actual authority because he didn't go to the conference that he couldn't have gone to because he wasn't a member of the church yet, maybe we should just go to, I don't know, the priesthood license that is signed by Joseph Smith, that certifies that Brigham Young has been received in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, organized the 6th of April in the Year of Our Lord, 1830 and has been ordained an elder according to the rules and regulations of said church and is duly authorized to preach the gospel agreeable to the authority of that office. It's Brigham Young's priesthood license. It's from 1836 and Joseph Smith is the one who signed it. So, arguing that Brigham Young never had any authority because of some weird explanation of the church falling after the Isaac Morley meeting in 1831 flies in the face of actual documents.
Gerrit The problem with arguing that the church no longer has the Melchizedek Priesthood is the person who knows whether or not it has the Melchizedek Priesthood, Joseph Smith, keeps giving people the Melchizedek Priesthood. So, that's kind of rough, right, to say, well, the church doesn't have it anymore. I mean, you'd have to argue that Joseph himself is fallen. And interestingly, this argument, it draws from a lot of different places. This person appears to be wanting to say, Joseph was a true prophet, but the church fell, and the church primarily fell because of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. But there's another person who made a very similar argument at one point, that clearly some of this is being drawn from, but they aren't making the argument that Joseph Smith was a true prophet the whole time, and he just eventually became a fallen prophet.
Gerrit Instead, this person, who we identified last episode as Bill the Adulterer, I don't know whether or not William McClellan ever committed adultery.
Richard I mean, he received a revelation that said, hey...
Gerrit Stop wanting to. Sure. I mean, frankly, God could give that revelation to everyone. Stop trying to commit adultery. Stop wanting to commit adultery. You need to stop being tempted about adultery. But William McClellan, when he forms his own church, is going to make the name of the church part and parcel of his argument that Joseph was a fallen prophet. And this goes back to the problem. You can only pick up a stick so far before you're actually picking up both ends of the stick. You think you're picking up one side of it. Well, the very fact that they changed the name, that proves that the church is under the condemnation of God. Okay, except for the fact that it's Joseph Smith who changed the name of it. And that it's Joseph Smith who received a revelation from God declaring what the name of the church is.
Gerrit When it was changed to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. So you would have to say that Joseph was in error when he changed the name of the church. And then Joseph was in error again when he received the new name of the church by revelation.
Richard And the claim here isn't that Joseph is the fallen prophet, but that Brigham Young and the Quorum of the Twelve conspired to bring the church to where it was.
Gerrit Right, I mean, and you could even see in part of that, you know, they brought masonry into the church. Well, well, actually, Joseph Smith is the one who establishes the Masonic Lodge in Nauvoo. That is ridiculously thoroughly documented. There are all kinds of non-Latter-day Saint sources that demonstrate that Joseph Smith set up a Masonic Lodge in Nauvoo. So, so did Brigham make him do that? Did Brigham like forge his signatures to like create that? Did Brigham make him become a master mason? I think the person who's making this argument is throwing all kinds of things up at the wall and using things like masonry and counterfeiting currency, which we already talked about. We have a whole episode on a horrifically written book, again, not by a historian. Stunning how this keeps happening. But, a terribly written book about how the early church was just all counterfeiters.
Gerrit Again, not based upon actual sources from the time, because that would mean actual research. But instead, these later claims that can't be verified. So William McClellan found his own church in 1847. This is after he was done robbing the Latter-day Saints after the extermination order. So, you know, I'm an apostle, I'm an apostate, I'm robbing everyone during the extermination order, and oh, by the way, now I'm going to start my own church. Stunning series of events that he has there. In his newspaper, The Enzyme of Liberty, he talks about how Joseph, you know, starts to fall away and the changing name of the church. He says, A motion is made by Elder Sidney Rigdon that this Church of Christ be no more known by that name, but we henceforth shall call ourselves Latter-day Saints.
Gerrit The unanimous vote of that conference settled the matter. The official origin, organ of the Church in the May number in the editorial column hosts as its caption, progress of the Church of the Latter-day Saints, having officially rejected the name of Christ and taken a fictitious one, which the mouth of the Lord did not give for the Church and all other things being prepared, this warrior camp of saints set out for the western bounds of Missouri to redeem Zion. Being led on by the prophet and other great ones who took fictitious names, but ah, the angels of God mourned. The heavens grieved, though the devils laughed, and the earth over which they wended their way sent forth her pestiferous breath filled with pain, sickness and death. So William McClellan is arguing that really the Church fell when the attempt to lead the Zion's Camp March came, never mind the fact that Joseph Smith received that revelation from God telling them to lead it, and then points to the changing name of the Church as proof of that.
Gerrit Well, you know, he cites to it, but we can go to the original minutes. Again, these actual minutes are on the Joseph Smith Papers website. The conference came to order and Joseph Smith Jr. was chosen as moderator, so Joseph's leading the conference. So this isn't a Sidney Rigdon plan. Joseph is there, which is... Well, that's the point William McClellan's making. Joseph is a fallen prophet because of the change of the name. After a prayer, the conference proceeded to discuss the subject of names and appellations when a motion was made by Sidney Rigdon and seconded by Noel K. Whitney. Oh, no, now the Church's bishop is also an apostate. That this church be known hereafter by the name of the Church of the Latter-day Saints. Appropriate remarks were delivered by some of the members after which the motion was put by the moderator and passed by unanimous vote. So who's the moderator of the conference we just read?
Gerrit Joseph Smith is the moderator of the conference. He's the one who puts it up. Sidney Rigdon suggests it, but Joseph's the one that says, let's vote on it. Resolve that this conference recommended the conferences of the churches abroad that making and transmitting the minutes of the proceedings, such as minutes and proceedings, be made out under the above title. Joseph Smith Jr., moderator, so it's signed by Joseph Smith. So you can see, and back to, you know, the original email, the argument that the changing name of the church is proof that the church has fallen was made a really long time ago by other apostates who also were trying to form their own church. Only they claimed that it meant that Joseph was a fallen prophet. Whereas our email writer is claiming that Joseph is still a true prophet, and it was just other people that were changing the name.
Gerrit You can see why this becomes a pretty problematic thing. And by the way, in both cases, no historian is making this argument. You have no other contemporary sources that are stating that. This is simply someone after the fact trying to find a justification for the position that they hold, and the justification they want to have is that I can now be the new leader of the church. Back to the email, I guess we've gone on a long time, and this can't be a part three, so I have to stop.
Richard Wrap it up.
Gerrit Yep, yep. We've got to stop, Richard, because I can't. This idea that they created a secret order back in Nauvoo to implement plural marriage. Where is the evidence of this? Where are our sources of this? We have Brigham Young's journals. We have Heber C. Kimball's journals. We have Wilford Woodruff's journals. The person who is making this argument has to argue that thousands and thousands of pages of documents are all fraudulent, that they are all filled with lies. Why? So that they can believe what they want to believe. And apparently one of the overriding aspects of this is that Joseph Smith never taught or practiced polygamy. In fact, the email writer almost quotes the title of these non-historians' book, Joseph and Hyrum fought against polygamy and never practiced it, and were ultimately martyred because of the dirty works of the secret order.
Gerrit Well, go find me a historian who says that. When you say this is why events happened, look, you can believe whatever you want to believe. If you want to believe that Brigham Young is a fallen prophet and that Joseph is a true prophet, well, that's a religious belief. You can believe that. But if you're going to make the claim to defend that belief, that there's historical events that took place, well then you need more than just an unsourced email riddled with false statements. Not, not false religious statements. Look, there are a ton of false religious statements. I'm all in on that. But there are multiple false factual statements in this. And the question is, how many of these false factual statements are informing the false religious statements? The person then goes on to claim that because the church hadn't finished the temple when Joseph died, that the church was rejected along with their dead.
Gerrit Okay, well, who says that? Where does Joseph say that? That if the temple isn't done before I'm murdered, that that means the church is rejected. Is there a source for that? No, there isn't. But there is a keyboard warrior or a YouTube jockey that is claiming something like that. But that's not the same thing as having a source. When Joseph died, that dispensation closed. And the fullness of the gospel was taken from the earth and the church went into apostasy. That's what the email writer writes. Oh, really? So this is the last dispensation of the fullness of times? Except not actually the last? It's the last dispensation of the fullness of times, but then also, like all of our podcasts, here's part two. There is no evidence for that. Now, I realize that's what a self-styled prophet says. It's what the Denver Snuffers of the world claim. But they claim them by rejecting the teachings of Joseph Smith and by denying the sources that exist.
Gerrit The email goes on, the people were smitten and driven. God did not fight their battles. The Nauvoo Temple was not finished. It was burned, which if it was God's house, would he allow it to be destroyed? Boy, that's one of those, if it stands to reason things, that I really don't think he want to walk down that road. Because God would never ever allow his apostles to be killed. Because that never happened in world history. God never allowed people to be tortured for what they believed. God never allowed people to be burned out of their homes and houses. I mean, God never allowed the saints in Colesville. Because if we're taking this person up their word, the church is pure and true and good in 1830 and 1831. Well, then why did this God allow the saints to be driven from Colesville and then from Kirtland to Missouri?
Gerrit Were they also sinners then too? Boy, the problem is if we apply this rhetoric, boy, you kind of keep going further and further back to when the church is actually a problem. A portion of the saints followed Brigham to Utah because they were running from the law for fraud and for money laundering. Yeah, that's also not true. But hey, let's just say whatever we want since it doesn't matter. We'll just write it. Notice again, no sources. Brigham and the Twelve established the current LDS church, added or changed doctrines and scriptures like Doctrine and Covenant, Section 131. The new and everlasting covenant was changed to marriage by Orson Hyde. I don't know what your source is for that. That sounds false. I mean, look, that it's clarified to be marriage, yes, but Doctrine and Covenant, Section 131 comes from William Clayton's journal, which are you arguing that the original version of William Clayton's journal is accurate?
Gerrit Because if you're arguing that, William Clayton's journal is the journal that says Joseph Smith taught and practiced polygamy. So we're just going to say that just the portion that contains D&C 131, that part is true, and all of Joseph's interactions with William Clayton, where he talks about plural marriage with William Clayton, that those are false? I mean, I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but every single one of these arguments is terrible. D&C 132 was added to justify polygamy. These two sections were added in the 1876 printing of the Doctrine and Covenants, years after Joseph's death. Yes, along with all of the other sections that are added to the Doctrine and Covenants. If the claim is anything that's added in 1876 is false, well, then that means D&C 121, 22, and 23 are false letters.
Gerrit It means that D&C 2 is false, and D&C 13 is false, and D&C 87 is also false, and everything's false. Again, that's the kind of thing that is put in there to cause someone to feel troubled. Why? Because they don't even know that those revelations were added later. And so when someone says, well, if it wasn't false, why was it added later? But they're not saying that D&C 121, are they? Which was added later. They're not saying it about D&C 137 and Joseph's vision of the celestial kingdom. So this is the problem with these arguments. They utilize something that they only apply to the point that they want to dismiss. They established new doctrine, not based on the true doctrine of Christ, which is laid out very clearly, the consequences of that.
Gerrit I don't believe, so clearly, the person who wrote this email has been inundated with someone making what sounds like good arguments and arguments that they want to hear because they say things like, plural marriage never came from God. But they do so by rejecting all the sources that exist, by making conclusions that they don't apply to any of the other sources and by outright stating falsehoods when it comes to the historical record. When we aren't willing to take sources seriously and we just pick and choose whatever we want and we pretend that nothing else exists, yeah, it's super easy to make a great argument. But that's not what historians do. I know that this is a super sensitive issue for people. I know we'll have people email after this saying, how dare you claim that Doctrine and Covenants, Section 132, is really a revelation from God?
Gerrit Well, as Latter-day Saints, it is canonized scripture and we have multiple historical sources for it. The claim that people have made, the claim that the reorganized church made for years, that it was just invented later, is not a verifiable one and one for which the historical record does not bear it up. Joseph Smith, by the weight of the historical record, clearly taught and practiced plural marriage. This isn't just some kind of conspiracy theory in which Brigham Young and the apostles got together and hatched up a Cochranite plan to get polygamy into the church. There are zero sources for that out of the thousands and thousands that we have.
Gerrit And I know someone who is really struggling with polygamy and they don't want to believe that God ever commanded it. When someone says, hey, hey, hey, I have a way to show that it never came from God. We want to believe it. But wanting to believe an argument is not the same thing as that argument being sound. And so hopefully these two episodes have helped see why some of these arguments are not, they're not very sound. I know that it's difficult when we're dealing with people that we love. My experience is someone who's this far down the rabbit hole, they aren't willing to listen to what real sources are. They've already decided that their truth is what they're going to support regardless of what the sources say. And you can always come back to this.
Gerrit If this argument was a good argument, historians would be making it. Non-Latter-day Saint historians who would win a Pulitzer Prize if they could prove that Brigham Young invented polygamy. They would have their pick of any Ivy League institution and they'd have a book that would sell out if they could prove it. So why aren't they writing that book? They're not Latter-day Saints. They're not trying to defend the church. In fact, many of them dislike the church greatly. They could do both things. They could destroy the church and create their career by proving the things that are in this email and in some of these arguments. Why don't they do it then? And I think we already know the answer. They don't do it because it's not a historically responsible argument.
Gerrit Don't let people sway you with arguments that they claim to be historical when they aren't accepted by even non-Latter Day Saints as history. Ultimately the only way that you can know the truth of anything is through the Holy Spirit. Ultimately, that is how you know whether or not President Nelson is a prophet of God. But do think about the repercussions of claiming that Brigham Young and all the Quorum of the Twelve are all fallen, that they all made up plural marriage later, that it was all a lie, that it all came... You're not just talking about one or two people. You're talking about hundreds of people that are all part of the lie. Eliza Arseneau, liar. Bathsheba Smith, liar.
Gerrit Sylvia Sessions, liar. Melissa Lott, liar. And on top of that, you're making that claim not based upon evidence that they're liars. You're making that claim based upon what you want to believe. And that's not history. That's just emotion. And I've probably had enough of it, so we should probably close. Thank you so much for listening. I promise we'll never talk about plural marriage even tangentially ever again.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDuc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.

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It's like getting on a subway in Beijing. You don't wave. You just go for it.

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sometimes the Lord taps you on the shoulder, and he taps you on the shoulder, and he taps you on the shoulder, and then he kicks you in the face.

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What is not in the balance is the outcome of this war. We already know who wins in the end. The Lord Jesus Christ wins in the end.

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But we cannot allow the things that we don't have answers for to trump the most important answers.

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I mean, whenever anyone says, it stands to reason, what they mean is, I do not have sources.

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You can only pick up a stick so far before you're actually picking up both ends of the stick.

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But wanting to believe an argument is not the same thing as that argument being sound.

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If this argument was a good argument, historians would be making it.

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More from this episode

Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.

Claim check

What critics say, and what the episode found
Stephen Burnett's letter shows Martin Harris admitted he never saw the plates.
Brigham Young's adultery and Cochranite polygamy are 'documented in multiple journals.'
Changing the Church's name in 1834 proves the Church had fallen.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.

Take it to class

Ready to copy into a lesson or a text

Stephen Burnett received a revelation from the Lord through Joseph and still fell away, and his claims about the witnesses contradict what they all said all their lives.

When someone says 'it's documented in multiple journals' but cites none, ask which journal; when they say 'it stands to reason,' they usually mean there are no sources.

We won't have every answer to every historical question, but we can't let what we don't know trump what we do know about God's love and the Restoration.

Cynthia found that studying Church history head-on strengthened her testimony rather than weakening it.

Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.

Banter bin

The running jokes, for people who skip ahead
Gerrit's danderThe new Gerrit Dander Meter rated last episode an 11 out of 10 (1:01-1:18); maybe it needs Kelvin (4:01); moved to a scale of a million, and Gerrit is north of 900,000 (48:26-48:52).
An hour and a wayRichard trips over 'an hour and a half away' and Gerrit asks if he used Ask Jeeves (1:23-1:39).
Kristy's CornerRob asked for a good one a week too late (2:06, 19:05); Richard's sister must sit in front and just start talking, like boarding a Beijing subway (2:58-3:34); read Burnett's apostate letter in class, but not in testimony meeting (9:09-9:40).
We're huge in Australia (and Croatia)Sister Merrick's mission drops Australia from two listeners to one, the Collingwood Magpies alienated Wendy's husband, and Croatia spikes (10:46-11:25); a McDonald's ad in Zagreb (11:25).
Japanese rice tariffsMissionaries would be thrilled to learn about rice tariffs (12:48); two of Richard's kids leave the room when it comes up (15:27).
Brian, MTC district leaderHe sent a picture of a mail key: 'I held the keys,' so now they run every email past Brian (13:26-14:25).
The labor-email policyRob notes he's not pregnant or at any risk of emailing in labor (14:25).
TownshipsGerrit suggests doing townships again instead of rants (15:08-15:13).
PartockRichard reads 'partake' as a bird call, then asks to cut it, 'just like everything else' (20:24-20:56).
It's in every journalMultiple journals becomes all the journals, Richard's journal and Gerrit's journal (35:26-35:33).
He's lazyA callback to Part 1's Brigham Young missing a conference he couldn't attend (45:11).
Bill the AdultererWilliam McLellin returns from Part 1 (52:10-52:26).
Never againGerrit promises never to talk about plural marriage even tangentially ever again (72:48).
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General ConferenceGeneral Conference talks that cite a scripture read in this episode.

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Talks from the latest General Conference that cite a scripture this episode reads or names on air
October 2026 General Conference · cites D&C 132Come to the Lord in His Holy HouseElder Gerrit W. GongElder Gong lays out three doctrinal foundations for temple worship: eternal families, moral agency, and the Holy Spirit of Promise, which makes honored covenants binding.October 2026 General Conference · cites D&C 2The Infinite Power of God in Our CovenantsElder Jeremiah J. MorganElder Morgan grew up in another church that also believes in the Book of Mormon, where his single mother read it to him daily.October 2026 General Conference · cites D&C 132Sealed by the Holy Spirit of PromiseElder David A. BednarElder Bednar, using the image of a damaged passport rejected at a border, teaches that ordinances and covenants are our credentials for returning to God, and that their integrity must be maintained through ongoing faithfulness, ratified over time by the Holy Spirit of Promise.

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Deep dives the episode points toward
Stephen Burnett's 1838 letter to Lyman Johnson and the many later statements by the Book of Mormon witnesses (5:14, 8:11).
Jacob Cochran and the Cochranites of Saco, Maine, and Samuel Smith's 1832 missionary journals (39:11, 41:25).
The 1834 and 1838 name changes of the Church and William McLellin's Ensign of Liberty (52:26, 55:00).
Which Doctrine and Covenants sections were added in 1876 and later, and where each came from (65:29).
SOT Litner · S5E30.