Dead and in Hell Part 7

Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise, and humor.

Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I am joined by my erstwhile friend, Dr. Richard LeDuc.

Richard Happy Thanksgiving, Gerrit. Thanks for having me back.

Gerrit Well, because it was Thanksgiving, I couldn't turn you out into the virtual cold.

Richard Well, it's very nice of you, very excited to be here on Thanksgiving, I believe, as this plays in people's ears over the weekend. And by the way, our worst listened to episodes are over holidays. So six people will hear this and that's on the high side.

Gerrit So yeah, and those six people will be my mom, my mom again, maybe Rachel's mom, probably Leslie, my mom, Rocky. I think that's the list in that order.

Richard Yeah, we make the podcast makes for great falling asleep. It makes for great, you know, morning drive.

Gerrit You want some trip to bed, you eat a big old turkey. You then turn on Dead and in Hell Part 11, which I can only assume we're headed to. And boy, I mean, you are, you're in a better place. Now, I am told by my sources that we're going to forego a Kristy's Corner this week.

Richard Correct. Correct. Because we're going to do a re-release of the Martyrdom, the Prophet Joseph Smith, from, to coincide to D&C 135. So as you're visiting in your friends or families' wards, as you're together, you will be able to, maybe they'll ask you to stay because we need you to be our...

Gerrit Yeah, yeah, there was a loud hosanna. Did you ever, when you visit other people's wards?

Richard Never.

Gerrit Do you comment?

Richard I never comment. Never, ever, ever.

Gerrit Do you comment?

Richard I never comment. Never, ever, ever.

Gerrit Now, look, I have before. I'm not going to say I don't. But I'm always really surprised when someone comes to visit. And you know what? I guess I get it because they're like, you know what? I'm playing with house money.

Richard Yeah.

Gerrit I can say whatever I want.

Richard Whatever, yeah.

Gerrit And so they just, they pop their hand up like 17 times in the class period. Like every time the teacher says something like, so I think that Jesus and they raise their hand and they're like, I think we should probably think about the way that that happened in the year. And they just, and they, you know, but there are some people who are aggressive visiting classes.

Richard Yeah. No, I don't. I keep my head down. You know, if I'm called upon, I will not serve. If I'm asked to run, I will not run.

Gerrit Yeah. Well, except the last time I was in your ward, I went to Sunday school.

Richard Well, Brady, yeah, Brady.

Gerrit And got called on to teach the lesson.

Richard You did a great job.

Gerrit I mean, I didn't know not to not to give a thought to teach the lesson.

Richard Yeah, Brady, your lesson was great. I mean, I've heard I wasn't I left, but so did everyone else. Yeah, it was like the third quarter of a college football game.

Gerrit And I'm like, I got to beat traffic home from church.

Intro I'm walking.

Gerrit Yeah, no, that's the part that's so frustrating is that you don't even want to have to walk behind people on a sidewalk.

Richard That's good. You did a great job. I mean, again, I heard I didn't actually pay attention to sit there.

Gerrit And we're all hopeful that in this coming weekend that BYU can Central Florida can secure that spot in the Big 12 title game so that we can be mercilessly pummeled by the giant and NIL defensive line of Texas Tech.

Richard So can I... Those guys are small. So over the weekend, as we beat the Cincinnati Bearcats, who I believe missed three field goals in that game, that is not ideal. But...

Gerrit I know it was three because in the aftermath, the coach referenced it and I thought, man, you are throwing that guy under a bus.

Richard Yeah.

Gerrit The Cincinnati coach in his post-game, he's like, obviously, we didn't play well. We missed three field goals. And I was like, oh boy, man, that kid.

Richard Yeah.

Gerrit The Cincinnati coach in his post-game, he's like, obviously, we didn't play well. We missed three field goals. And I was like, oh boy, man, that kid.

Richard So there were... I loved... I am never surprised and or offended. I mean, I'm really not... I am not easily offended. If somebody says something terrible about whatever, I'm just like, oh, okay. I mean, people believe whatever they're going to believe. And best of luck. And especially serving a stateside mission, I'm well used to people trashing my beliefs. I'm like, okay, well, I love you, I guess. I'm trying, Gerrit, I'm trying. But I love the contrast. It was interesting because it actually was all over the Twitters and the social medias and the Facebooks of the Cincinnati student section. They were chanting something about Mormons. And I think the offensive part is that they called us Mormons. I didn't hear the full chant.

Gerrit Yeah, we kept trying to stop them and correct them. Actually, we prefer to be called members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Richard But it doesn't have, it's just not...

Gerrit Yeah, it didn't have the same ring to it.

Richard Yeah, the heck with Mormons is better than the heck with members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Gerrit Yeah, only they weren't saying the heck with...

Richard They were not. But I love the contrast to that of what the church did for the Cincinnati, University of Cincinnati food pantry where they donated 25,000 pounds or 27,000 pounds of food to help fight against food insecurity for their students. And the contrast of those two things, I absolutely, I couldn't have been more proud to be a Latter-day Saint, actually.

Gerrit Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and that is one of the great things that BYU does and goes and does charity and BYU fans do as well when they, when they're doing the away games, they find a charity and they help out. I mean, those things are great and hopefully everyone listening can do that. Obviously, there's bad fans from every fan base. I'm always surprised, though, when an athletic director says things like, in the apology, this isn't who we are and it's like, but it very much is. There are about 20,000 people doing it. So, and I understand why they say what they mean is this is not who we should be.

Richard Yeah, but it's very different than saying who we are because it is very, you did it seven hours ago.

Gerrit It's very much who you are. Yeah, I mean, when you say this isn't who we are, it's like, no, what you mean to say is this isn't who I want us to be. Because who we are right now is someone who just chanted a giant religious bigoted expletive for a long time.

Richard Yeah, yeah, they really did.

Gerrit Yeah, I mean, so that's who you that's who you are. And I mean, obviously not every person does. It's not an indictment every person. The point is, I always feel, I always think when people are making that apology, it's always a little weird. Your apology should just be, I am horrified at the actions of some of our fans. We have to do better rather than, this isn't who we are. They always say that this isn't who we are. Well, kind of seems like a lot of you are. I mean, and the other thing too, is this is not something done without knowledge. It's not like there hasn't been all kinds of news stories this year about schools and fans doing it and schools being fine. So you don't even get to claim like, oh, I didn't even realize that an expletive in your religion was offensive to you, which seems kind of weird to say it. Yet usually when I use an expletive, I mean it in the positive kind way.

Gerrit I mean, anyway, but look, when people watch sports, they get crazy and bugger the crazy God go I.

Richard Yes, yes. Speaking of crazy, 17 and a half point favorites at home against Central Florida. That's a spicy number there.

Gerrit Do we cover?

Richard Yeah, I think actually we do. But that's, yeah, I think 17 and a half.

Gerrit What do we have in the Phebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag?

Richard We have an email from, well, we have one that's kind of on the fence actually, Gerrit. It was an email received. Now, the Standard of Truth policy guarantee, as it were, is that if during labor, an email is sent.

Gerrit By the woman in labor.

Richard By the woman in labor. And we've already let some men get away with it. We've already-

Gerrit We just keep letting it slide.

Richard We have, and we've gotta draw a hard line.

Gerrit We have broken laws. We've broken all eternal principles. We've broken by allowing those to be read anyway.

Richard Yeah. And this podcast will cease to be a podcast. We learned this in Alma if we don't do better here. But so ultimately though, the decision, I don't know what we want to do here. I'll read the first part and you be Paula Abdul acting as judge and you let me know what you want to do. Good morning, Dr. Dirkmaat and Dr. Lou Duke. I actually kind of like the L-U-D-U-C. I think it looks better actually. It's very nice. Many months ago when you gave the standard of truth guarantee, I knew this was my time. I told my wife that we had to do this and spent the next months planning. Our daughter had other plans after a really short one hour, 38 minute labor and two pushes. She was here.

Gerrit Now it's on you. You got to queue that up. She's got to have the computer ready. I mean, you have a go bag when you're going to the hospital. Anyone who's having a baby, they've got a go bag in that go bag. You need to have your computer.

Richard A prewritten email.

Gerrit No, no, I want to. They have to write it during labor. If I find out through AI or some other means that this was written like nine months before in just anticipation.

Richard Yeah.

Gerrit No. It needs to have time coding of what the character strokes were.

Richard I see. They're in the family planning clinic working on whatever it is. They're like, okay, I'm going to write this up now because eventually.

Gerrit No.

Richard Okay. I will say there are many women that may be listening to this. One hour and 38 minutes. Fantastic.

Gerrit Yeah. Incredible. And obviously birth and deliveries are terrible. No matter how good a good delivery is essentially like a good lecture on plural marriage.

Richard Is that how I came across? I came across, oh, this is nothing.

Gerrit Yeah. You came across as if you're like, oh yeah, I could do labor for an hour and 38 minutes standing on my head. I mean, I starved myself for a week. I'm sure I could do that. That's how you came across.

Richard All I know is that Becky was in labor with our, with Andrew for 25 hours. And he would still, he'd be going to school from within her womb if he could.

Gerrit Yeah. Well, that's, well, I mean, Becky's a lovely person. Her and Andrew have a very close connection. It makes sense.

Richard So, so should we proceed or?

Gerrit Yes. I mean, we could check with the judges on this. I mean, frankly, we should just stop. I mean, I mean, you have some pictures of your child there.

Richard Well, that's, that's the thing. The pictures of the child, the child looks adorable, but she looks 17 hours old. I mean, I mean, what are we talking about?

Gerrit Are we going to have people just sending us images of toddlers walking around saying, Hey, I didn't get to my computer in time. A picture of them graduating from high school, holding a diploma saying, I thought I'd write in. I just had a baby.

Richard No, I mean, like, yeah, this is my son taking a test at 1130 and then canvas goes down and I'm saying, Oh, but I never got an opportunity to take the test.

Gerrit Oh man, you have no idea how many times I've heard that excuse by the way.

Richard Oh, gajillion.

Gerrit As a teacher, I do know that bad things happen at the last minute and that hurts people a lot because everyone waits till the last minute.

Richard Of course, yes.

Gerrit I always tell my students like, Listen, I know you're going to procrastinate till the end. You know you're going to procrastinate till the end. Do you want to know the most important part about waiting until the last second? It's literally the most important part. Knowing when the last second is. Because the biggest problem is students will wait until like the assignments close and be like, Oh man, it's been open for three months, but I thought I'd have another week to work on. It's like, well, I mean, how could you possibly have thought that if you ever once looked at the due date, it was the same. We referenced it in class 30 times. The most, and this is, you know, take this. You can put this in vinyl on your wall. The most important part of waiting until the last second is knowing when the last second is. It's key. It's key to procrastination. Anyway, go ahead.

Richard I have been a fan of the podcast for a few years now and have listened to all the free episodes. I've enjoyed each one. I'm waiting to get the premium episodes when my wife and I go on our mission together. That won't be for at least 33 years. So that means I will finally be in season 37. I think it was, I thought it was season 38 that season 37, we're still going to be on Who's Dead in Hell.

Gerrit Yeah, we're going to be on part 700 Who's Dead in Hell. Clearly as this opening demonstrates.

Richard Yes, and get all the polygamy episodes. I just wanted to say thank you for all the history and context behind church events. This has made my faith stronger and my testimony better. I've never been afraid of church history. I love history, especially church history. I recommend your podcast to everyone I talk to. I look forward to each Thursday for one of your new episodes. Per your advice, I am using Kristy's Corner to make my way through the ranks of the church. Only problem is I'm not as eloquent in my delivery as Gerrit is. This is my path because when I was in the MTC as a new missionary, I was put in a position of power. Even worse than a district leader, I was an MTC zone leader.

Gerrit I was going to say MTC. That's what we call them now. It sounds like you're getting invented a calling for you.

Richard MTC. You know what that means. Mission Training Center zone leaders, MTC. Yeah. I don't know that I've ever actually known MTC zone leader. They were like some sort of endangered species, some sort of California condor that kind of like you would have you ever.

Gerrit Yeah. Have you ever seen, you know, a giant panda kind of thing?

Richard Yeah. Like in in the wild, I knew that they existed. First of all, when I went into the MTC, we had an MTC, MTC, we had an MTC zone leader. He looked like he was 33 years old and that he'd been there for nine months. And, you know, I looked like I was six, still qualifying for Corey to send, or for Gerrit to send emails into the podcast. But as you know, if he was my father and I was that old, but it was, I never, I never knew one. Did you ever know one?

Gerrit So I remember one time we were in a large meeting where two of them came and said that that's what they were. And promptly I never met them nor cared about what they had to say.

Richard I'm convinced that every MTC zone leader was one of the three Nephites. I'm convinced of it.

Gerrit Right. So the next thing you know, they're in a church house in Leighton somewhere, refuting it. I'm Mormon Doctrine.

Richard One question I have is, do we have any accounts of how we know Heavenly Father has a physical body or is that taught through Revelation? Thanks for the bad sporting sports betting and gambling talk. Again, BYU minus 17 and a half. Your friends, Gerrit and Savannah.

Gerrit Well, we let it slide. Congratulations. We are going to have to tighten up the ship. We literally are getting hundreds of emails a week now. We're getting hundreds of emails a week from missionaries wanting the podcast. Then the follow-up email is, please remove me from your Google Drive.

Richard I'm adding. Last week, I added 200 new missionaries. We're over 4,000 now. It's a lot of fun.

Gerrit Yeah. Thank you and congratulations. Yes. I mean, we know through the Prophet Joseph Smith, obviously that that's the main way that we know Joseph is going to refer to the fact that the father has a body multiple times. Joseph saying that the son in an 1843 talk, right? The son do with what he has seen the father do, take his body, right? And so he talks very clearly about the fact that the father's body, of course, is one of the things that other Christians believe to be very a blasphemous thing because they believe we're in the Bible in which it says that, you know, God is spirit and those who worship him must worship him the spirit and truth. So they believe that that is a statement that God doesn't have a body. Now, of course, because of the Trinitarians, it becomes kind of weird, right? Because Jesus does have a body and Jesus is God.

Gerrit So if someone gives you a really hard time about God not having a body, well, clearly, God does because you could just ask the question, is Jesus God? And they will say yes. And then you'd say, does Jesus have a body? And they would say yes. And then you'd say, well, I guess then God has a body. And they'd say, no, he doesn't. But that's the father doesn't. But Jesus does. I mean, it's one of one of the hardest things to deal with with the Trinity is that the father and the son, one has a body and one doesn't. And yet, they're both the same God, right? So we would have to go into a lot of time on that to cover it. And everyone's clamoring for Dead and in Hell Part 75. So, but yes, we know it because of what Joseph Smith teaches, what Joseph Smith has revealed. It's part of what Joseph dwells on in the King Follett sermon. I mean, by 1841, I mean, Joseph Smith is saying that the father has a tabernacle.

Gerrit I mean, so it's actually a relatively early doctrine that Joseph is teaching among his radical Nauvoo doctrines. I mean, Joseph is teaching a lot of things that when he says God created man in his image, he means it in every way. In answer to it, this is from a discourse in 1843. In answer to a question asked by a sectarian priest, namely, how is it that you Mormons hold that God is omnipresent when at the same time, he's a personage of tabernacle? And Joseph says, after God had created the heavens and the earth, he came down and on the sixth day said, let us make man into our own image and whose image in the image of the gods created they them, male and female, innocent, harmless and spotless, bearing the same character and the same image as the gods. And when man fell, he did not lose his image, but his character still retaining the image of his maker.

Gerrit Christ who is in the image of man is also in the express image of his father's person. So says Paul, for in him, Christ dwelt the fullness of the godhead bodily. Why? Because he was the brightness of his glory. So, so you can see that Joseph there is responding already, you know, to questions that people are having about whether or not the father has a body. It is something that's being taught enough that other, other pastors are questioning Joseph on it. And so, as I said, it's a 9 March 1841 sermon, and these are all on the Joseph Smith Papers website, if you want to go find them, where Joseph is saying it expressly, right? It was the province of the father to preside as the chief or president, Jesus as the mediator and the Holy Ghost as the testator or witness.

Gerrit The son had a tabernacle and so had the father, but the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit without tabernacle. The great God has a name by which he shall be called, which is Amon. So, so Joseph is teaching it repeatedly. Why do Latter-day Saints believe that Joseph believe that God has a body? Because Joseph Smith, first of all, saw him on multiple occasions. So he has a better idea to tell you what he what he's like. But second of all, Joseph is teaching it repeatedly that in contradiction to the Trinitarian belief that Jesus God has a body, but Father God does not. We are teaching that Father God and Jesus God both have a body. And honestly, when you when you say it that way, it's the most radical, blasphemous thing ever. But when you say it in those terms, it's really not that much different. Already every single Christian believes that you can be God and have a body.

Gerrit You already believe that or you don't believe Jesus is God. You don't believe Jesus is God if you are saying that you cannot be God and have a body. We believe Jesus is God. So we are fine there. It's just one step further that when Jesus says, everything he saw his father do, that he's in the exact image of his father, we actually mean it, not just part of it. Just like Dr. McInerney, it's just part of it. It's part of it. It's part of it.

Richard That's great. Very good. This next email comes to us from Corey. Dear Dr. Dirkmaat, thanks for having Dr. LeDuc back. He's one of my favorite guest co-hosts you've had on the show.

Gerrit That's one of the only ones.

Richard That's very funny. Well, Angie.

Gerrit Angie filled in once. We interviewed my mom once.

Richard We did. And your brother has been on a couple of times.

Gerrit We should roll that back out for some Thanksgiving festivities. We'll just bury this one.

Richard Yes. There have been several people that have been on and all of which are better than me. I'm an avid litner and have been since the beginning of the year. I'm part of the ones of people who, not tens, not hundreds, the ones who listen to your podcast more than follow him. Well, that number is in the ones.

Gerrit Well, that number is in the ones because theirs is a better podcast.

Richard It's way better.

Gerrit Go check it out. It's got way better guests. The speakers are better. The producers are better.

Intro Aren't you a guest on the podcast?

Richard That's funny. You're like, the guests are incredible. Gerrit, aren't you a guest? Yeah, I'm a guest on there.

Gerrit Yeah. I'm trying to talk myself up a little bit. Yeah.

Richard Not long after starting the free content, I subscribed to the premium and now I'm on my second round. Apparently, there's nothing better to do because I think the podcast is okay. It's been a lot of fun hearing the references to Elder Abel. Elder Abel went home two days ago.

Gerrit Honorably.

Richard Honorably.

Gerrit You got to be careful. You can't just be like, Elder Abel went home. We won't talk about the reason why Elder Abel went home. Let's say he had set up a Ponzi scheme with missionary mail keys.

Richard I took Elder Abel and his companion out to dinner last week. Elder Abel, it's funny. Elder Abel served in our steak for something like 13 months. And then he was AP for three months or four and a half months or something like that. I spent almost his entire mission knowing Elder Abel and he's a great, great young man and he's going to the BYU in the spring term. Anyway, I love Elder Abel. He's great. His family's in my steak and they're amazing. Speaking of Mississippi, I'd like to put in a crest. A crest? I'd like to put it in a crest.

Gerrit So you'd like to put in some toothpaste just like the university you swam at? Bitter rivals, Crest University and Colgate University. Bitter rivals.

Richard I assume the crest was more like a British, you know, some sort of coat of arms.

Gerrit But the word in the crest... So you're just assuming...

Intro I don't know why.

Gerrit Yeah, it's funny. I read what he wrote wrong. But what I had in my mind was an English, was an English crest of a family, coat of arms, so to speak.

Richard That's what I was thinking of. That's why, similar when I called MTZ, similar shorthand for Missionary Training Center Zone Leader. Request for y'all to do a fireside down here. The Qdoba is 15 minutes from the church. We also have a Jersey Mike, so you might be able to pick up some money from those corporate sponsors. I'd also like to request, they requested for his nephews that are out serving. We're going to add them to the Google Drive. Two of them are serving in Brazil and the other in Africa. I served in Brazil during the same time both of you were on your missions. Though my mission experience was very different, especially in regard to teaching and baptizing, I would imagine that it was. One of your stories really...

Gerrit By that, I mean, anyone listened to you ever at all. So on my mission, there was one time we talked to this person and they listened to what we said.

Richard Was it the most recent premium? We were talking about Wilford Woodruff's Mission Companion, and that they were having all the success.

Gerrit His great-grandfather, Johnathan Harriman Hale.

Richard He's like, oh, we're having all the success. Look, I'm pretty confident that, you know, good old Wilford's making the action happen. Anyway, it really struck a chord. You mentioned the difficulty trying to track during Packers games. Well, we tried to track during the 98 World Cup in Brazil. I imagine the responses were similar, very similar. I've been interested in church history since I came across Truman Madsen's cassettes while I was on my mission. Same as Gerrit and myself.

Gerrit Awesome.

Richard Yes. My question actually comes from one of those lectures. He mentioned that Joseph taught that we would all have to face our own trial of Abraham. I've referenced that quote many times over the years in my own trials or in discussions with others. Do you know of any historical context for that statement? Thank you for all that you do to help strengthen the testimonies of so many people, those in the back of the squad car and those of us who can still fully exercise our agency. Best regards, Corey.

Gerrit Wow. Well, great question. Thank you first of all. A lot of inside things I don't know. The next time I'll be just passing through Mississippi in order to give a fireside. Although the fact that there is a Qdoba there, there's a chance. I have such a craving for it. Anyway, there are multiple references to this. Obviously, Abraham factors prominently in Latter-day Saints theology. He factors prominently in all of the monotheistic religions theology, but in part because we're talking about the blessings of Abraham and the covenant of Abraham. He is referenced a lot and one of the places, of course, is probably familiar to you, and that is to all of the church members. When Joseph receives the answer to what's going on with all of the suffering that's going on in Jackson County, after the violence in Jackson County, and so this is canonized now as Doctrine and Covenants Section 101.

Gerrit But in that section, Joseph is going to teach the general of this principle, right? I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them wherewith they have been afflicted in consequence of their transgressions, yet I will own them and they shall be mine in that day when I shall come to make up my jewels. Therefore, they must needs be chastened and tried, even as Abraham, who is commanded to offer up his only son. For all those who will not endure chastening, but deny me, cannot be sanctified. So part of what was going on, of course, in Missouri is there was a lot of infighting that was going on outside, you know, from within the church and then you had all of this violence that came from the outside. And so there you have it in scripture, if you're looking for a scriptural reference to it, that they must be tried even as Abraham.

Gerrit But it's not the only time that Joseph Smith is going to reference it. In 1841, I mean, this would be exhaustive and would take up the, maybe we should have saved your email to do an entire episode on it, but we're going to be on Dead and in Hell 45. And so I'm just giving you the Reader's Digest version, and no one knows what that is anymore because the Reader's Digest doesn't even exist.

Richard We'll get the correct research staff on that.

Gerrit I'm pretty, there's no way it exists anymore, right?

Richard Maybe digitally. I don't know.

Gerrit I got the Reader's, my parents got the Reader's Digest. I love reading the jokes in it. Did you ever get the Reader's Digest?

Richard Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wouldn't read a fiction book any other way. Yeah, yeah.

Gerrit It was great because it kind of gives you the cliff notes on it. So you have Joseph referencing Abraham and Abraham's sacrifice a lot. I mean, in one place, he does it by means of correction. And this is Brother William O. Clark is teaching. Now, I know that you're thinking, man, it must have been nice to live in Joseph's day. I'm sure if I did, he never would have said anything that would have offended me, not like my karnsarnet bishop, who always comments on my beard or something like that. This is the record that's made of this talk. Brother William O. Clark had been preaching to the congregation to persuade them to charity. You know how hard it is to read Brother William O. Clark and not go, are you serious, Clark? When, you know, from Christmas vacation about him seeing a Santa, it's Lord Richards who's writing this down.

Gerrit He'd been preaching to the congregation to persuade them to charity, temperance and everything that is good and lovely, etc. And without telling them what was good and lovely. Brother Joseph showed that this was a sectarian method of preaching. And by such preaching, no one could learn the principles of righteousness. And the world is ignorant of those principles. And to do the people good, we ought to tell them what those principles are, instead of trying to continually enforce something that they know nothing about. He would tell them what virtue was. It was to keep the commandments of God without doubting or querying about it. God gave laws to suit the circumstances of his creatures. Laws in themselves are contradictory. Thou shalt not kill, then to Abraham slay thy son Isaac.

Gerrit Abraham rendered obedience, nothing doubting. This was virtue, perfecting his faith by works. Men get up and pretend to preach by the power of the Holy Ghost, and tell nothing new, nothing but what the people understood. This is false. When men preach by the power of the Holy Ghost, they will tell something new. And if a man has nothing new to tell, let him sit down and give room to others. Lest he should come under the same condemnation, he would tell something new. No man will be condemned before God who has no accuser. He goes on the talk. But it's an interesting point that he's making that really what you hear in a lot of churches today, where someone will get up and talk about how important is, you know, how important the love of God is. And it is important. It's important that we're righteous. So what does righteousness mean?

Gerrit Because if all you say is it's important that you're righteous, well, then someone on the other end might decide, well, I'm righteous. I mean, I know I'm a fornicator and my name's Bill, but I know I'm righteous because I just feel like I am. And so Joseph kind of uses Abraham's example here to say, listen, righteousness is knowing what God's will is and doing it without doubt, without query, without questioning it. In another account that, again, this one is published in the newspaper, but this is the letter that Joseph Smith is going to send from Liberty Jail. So, in that letter, that portions of it make up, D&C 121 and 122, Joseph is pretty clear about this.

Gerrit God has said that he will have a tried people, and that he would purify them as gold is purified. Now, we think he has chosen his own crucible to try us, and if we should be so happy as to endure and keep the faith, it will be assigned to this generation. I remember Joseph's writing this from Liberty Jail to the faithful saints who don't have a leader, who are living as refugees, who have been driven out, who have nothing. If we should be so happy as to endure and keep the faith, it will be assigned to this generation sufficient to leave them without excuse. And that it will be a trial of our faith equal to that of Abraham or any of the ancients. And that they will not have much cause to boast over us in the persecutions and trials they endure. After passing through so much suffering and sorrow, we trust that before long, a ram may be caught in the thicket so that the sons and daughters of Abraham may be relieved from their fears and anxiety and that their faces may once more be lighted up with the joy and salvation and be enabled to hold out unto everlasting life.

Gerrit So this is clearly something that Joseph himself reflects on over and over again, even while he's in his own personal suffering. And his view on it is that by enduring trials equal to that of Abraham, it will bring about righteousness. So again, we could do a whole episode on that, but we're already cutting short on Dead and in Hell, Part 35.

Richard And well, so Gerrit, I do have an update for you on Reader's Digest. There's a couple pretty sad developments here. Pardon me, I'm clearing my throat, like I'm about to deliver very sad news.

Gerrit Yeah, I feel like you're putting an even larger, thicker pair of glasses on, but instead of a bifocal, it's like a quad focal. I'm not sure what's going on, but.

Richard Yeah, I look like Rick Moranis in Honey, I Shrunk the Kids. Yeah. So the print version is no longer in print. It is no longer, they're no longer Printing Reader's Digest. So that stopped in the United States in May of 2023. The UK, apparently more of a well-read people, that continued until May of 2024. And now it exists only in digital, but they no longer provide these summaries of much longer books. It's now just kind of an online lifestyle.

Gerrit It's almost like AI got that from them, huh?

Richard Yes, just kind of an online lifestyle digital magazine for people that are 118 years old or older.

Gerrit I miss it. I loved it. It was my favorite thing.

Richard Well, we'll mourn together, Gerrit. I'm very sorry for this. So adding to the list of people that are dead and in hell, Reader's Digest?

Gerrit Yeah, but Brigham Young never said that one either. Oh, OK. So we were reading from Daniel H. Wells' address on the 24th of July, and we were talking about some of the things that were in it, that were, you know, he's talking about the Mormon battalion suffering. So we talked about some of the things that were in it that might have been taken to be, you know, upsetting to the federal officers, right? That at the same time, there's lots of patriotic things in there as well. I mean, he says, it has been thought by some that this people, abused, maltreated, insulted, robbed, plundered, murdered, and finally disenfranchised and expatriated, would naturally feel repugnant to again, unite their destiny with the American Republic, preferring rather to associate with this, the less refined, less enlightened and less philanthropic in as much as their superior intelligence appeared to be exercised to devote the most wanton, cruel and dastardly means for the accomplishment of our ruin, overthrow and utter extermination.

Gerrit So he's using a lot of sarcasm there. He's like, hey, the American Republic is supposed to be the most intelligent, most refined. And they use that intelligence to find different ways to abuse us, murder us, rob us and kill us.

Richard Right.

Gerrit No wonder then that it was thought by some that we would not again submit ourselves even while we were yet scorned and ridiculed to return to our allegiance to our native country. And he's right. There are all kinds of people who said that. Oh, the Mormons remember. Remember, it was by the act of our country, not ours, that we were expatriated. And then consider the opportunities we had of forming other ties. Let this pass. While we lift the veil and show the policy which dictated us, that country, that constitution, those institutions were all ours. They are still ours. Our fathers were heroes of the Revolution. Under the master spirits of Adams and Jefferson and Washington, they declared and maintained their independence. And under the guidance of the Spirit of Truth, they fulfilled their missions. Whereunto, they were sent from the presence of the father. Because demagogues had arisen and seized the reins of power, should we relinquish our interest in that country made dear to us by every tie and association of consanguinity?

Gerrit Because of that momentary triumph of anarchy and confusion, of corruption, effeminacy, and the daring ascendancy of polluted politicians who cannot refrain from desecrating the soil in which their fathers lie in tomb. Should we abandon those tombs? Now, again, that sounds pretty harsh. But some of the people killed at Hons Mill fought in the American Revolution. They stood up to the British for freedom and were murdered by their fellow Americans because they didn't like the way they worshiped. That's going to make you a little bit bitter. There's going to be some bitterness there. Yeah. Yet, their living representatives and those sacred spots where our infancy learned to lisp their honored names, should we for reasons such as these wrap up ourselves in the mantle of insulted rights, dignity and pride, even though in closing in our arms, the innocent victims of treachery and blood-stained honor and seek the overthrow of that government or of that country and of those institutions whose only fault is the want of good and faithful administrators who dare in the hour of their country's peril to step forth and stem the torrent that threatens to engulf all in the widespread vortex of anarchy and ruin.

Gerrit Those who have indulged in such sentiments concerning us have not read Mormonism aright. For never, no never, will we desert our country's cause. Never will we be found arrayed by the side of her enemies, although she herself may cherish them in her own bosom. Although she may launch forth the thunderbolts of war which may return and spend their fury upon her own head. Never no never will we permit the weakness of human nature to triumph over the love of country. Our devotion to those institutions handed down to us by honored sires made dear by a thousand tender recollections. Although we feel the strong arm of oppression and writhe under the keen cruelty of the tyrant's rod, but rather stand aloof while she welters under the withering curse of the Almighty Jehovah for the shedding of innocent blood. Rather seek a shelter from the impending storm which no arm can stay until she has received the full measure of indignation of insulted innocence, the just demerit of all her crimes.

Gerrit Then will she consider the past. Then will she see in sad extremity to which she will be driven, the unrighteous course which she has pursued toward us. Then will she look to the poor defenseless Mormons whom she has murdered, persecuted and driven for suckers. So you see how there's a lot of emotion there. But here they are proclaiming there was. We won't ever turn on the country. But we're not going to pretend the country didn't turn on us and allow us to be murdered and driven out. Now he knows that this is a pretty rough speech. Friends, I will close. I've skipped a lot by the way. If in retrospect of the past, I have averted to incidents painful to consider and unpleasant in themselves. And although that nation or that people may have sealed their own damnation by the stern and unrelenting hand of persecution, which they have held over us.

Gerrit Yet I wish to be distinctly understood. That no true saints complain. They have taken joyfully the spoiling of their goods. And they give glory to God for having the privilege of suffering for the cause of truth. It is the path that the Savior trod. And all of the righteous men in all ages, and this people have ever been found equal to that emergency. The spirit of wisdom and grace has been according to their day and generation. They have sustained themselves under all circumstances, as faithful to their God and their faith and their country and themselves. And now, when the valleys and the mountains are spreading out before them, the invitation to come and inhabit, may they never permit the engrossing cares of worldly interests to swerve them from the path of duty, neither to the right or to the left. But remember the Lord who, as in days of ancient Israel, brought us forth with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm, unto him be the glory and the honor forever and ever.

Gerrit Amen. I mean, this is a powerful speech, you can tell. He is very clear. We are absolutely loyal to the country and the Constitution. Horrible leaders allowed us to get murdered and driven, but we are absolutely loyal. Now, he did say that the nation was going to be punished for driving them out. In fact, he said that they had may have sealed their own damnation by their unrelenting hand of persecution. This is what a lot of Latter-day Saints thought. Joseph Smith, the prophet had said there was a war coming and it was going to be terrible. And so, a lot of Latter-day Saints believe that there was going to be one that came and it would be, at least in part, a consequence to the nation willfully and willingly driving the Latter-day Saints out and doing nothing about their murders.

Gerrit Well, there were some federal officials that were there. The federal official who's going to factor most prominently in our discussion is a guy by the name of Perry Brocchus. Now, I don't really know if that's how you pronounce his name. I don't know when he Brocchus.

Richard That's a great name.

Gerrit It's B-R-O-C-C-H-U-S.

Richard Okay. Okay. So it's not like, what was Mr. T's name on the A team? Baracus?

Gerrit Baracus. You know what? I don't want to slander BA. Baracus by comparing him in any way to Judge Perry Brocchus.

Intro Okay.

Gerrit Now, the reason why I think we might know how to pronounce his name is there are some, I mean, you know, this is a spoiler alert. He's not a super big friend of the Latter-day Saints. And there are some Latter-day Saints who appear to have deliberately misspelled his name. So that it was not Brocchus, but something else that was broke. And then perhaps a donkey that was carrying things.

Richard That's pretty funny.

Gerrit Yeah. Well, you know, when you hear what he had to say. So Brocchus shows up in Utah territory. Now he's super late. The territory was organized in 1850. It is, it's now getting on to late 1851 before the dude finally shows up. Now part of it's not his fault. They do get waylaid by Indians on the way. And at least according to one account, they were robbed of everything, including all of their clothes. And they were forced to strip down to their underwear. And so here's this great, you know, admittable, you know, this federal judge who's standing there in his, in his knickers. But you know, Perry Brocchus is someone, have you ever met people and you're thinking, yeah, I listened to this podcast. Have you ever met people who love to hear themselves talk?

Richard That's funny.

Gerrit He appears to be that person. Here's an example of that. On the 4th of July, we have an account of another non-Latter-day saint who's traveling the planes at the same time that Perry Brocchus' company is. And it's tough and it's, it's the middle of July, you know, and they're in, you know, Nebraska somewhere, right? And everyone's already settled down for the night. And then all the surrounding wagon companies get this message that the honorable federal judge Perry Brocchus would like to address everyone for the 4th of July and for everyone to come gather and listen to what he has to say. And so then, you know, he gives a speech and the guy reporting it didn't seem super impressed. Anyway, he's, he's actually a Virginian. I mean, we often say he's an Alabama and he is appointed to this position from Alabama, but he actually was running a newspaper in Alexandria and Virginia for decades.

Gerrit And then he had just moved down to take over a new newspaper outlet, you know, editorship in Alabama. And that entire time, the guy is constantly trying to get an office. He is begging to get some kind of position in the government because, you know, these are guaranteed paying jobs, right? So the office seeking, I mean, you all see a little bit of it every time we get a new president with it. You even see it when it's the same party, but you especially see it when it's a new party taking over. I mean, you can almost kind of tell by like the last presidential debates, you know, for the primaries, that like two or three of the ones who have like no chance at all, they just like start praising the front runner, you know, like they spend the whole first seven months like totally attacking that person.

Gerrit And then they're like, I'll tell you what, I know that Kamala Harris is the right person to lead, aren't you running for president? Well, you know, there's some things that I like about, and they're positioning themselves. Why? Well, because I kind of want to be the secretary of state when you get elected. So, so they kind of, they're all looking for office. Well, Brocchus is, he is just an office seeker, to match all office seekers. Back in the day, all of these federal positions, there was no federal bureaucracy. The president could appoint and remove anyone in the federal government. The idea of like, oh, there's a state department with people that are there, that are there despite the administration, that didn't really exist. And so every time a president was elected, Washington was thronged. And the newspapers talk about hundreds of people trying to get appointed to federal positions, like being a postmaster, which is a federal position.

Gerrit But when you're a rich person who's, now this is going to sound completely foreign to today. But back then, rich people would donate money and their power and influence to try to get other people elected.

Richard Interesting.

Gerrit Yeah, it's almost hideous to think about it.

Richard Oh my gosh.

Gerrit I mean, look, a lot of people did a lot of things to influence votes. I mean, there's a reason why there's a hard cider campaign. You know, William Henry Harrison is basically passing out free booze to people to go vote for him. And you know what? He won the presidency. They just, I just want everybody to think about that. So look, he's from out. He's from Alabama when he's appointed, but really he's from Virginia. But he had tried to just get appointed to every single type of position. I mean, when Polk was was elected, he's trying to become appointed to the Supreme Courts of Minnesota. And then when Oregon Territory is organized, he tries to get appointed to Oregon Territory. He's constantly harassing the Democratic Party apparatus that he deserves to be appointed to one of these federal offices. There's one historian who actually said, this is how they characterized Perry Brocchus.

Gerrit He was unquestionably pompous and somewhat foolish. And he had an infatuation with his own voice. Now that, that's got to be the truth. Anyway, you know, look, Millard Fillmore is looking to, he's a Whig. But he thinks, look, if I appoint a Southern Democrat to Utah Territory, that balances out the fact that I'm appointing a few Northern Whigs to Utah Territory as well. Millard Fillmore is all about the compromise. He's trying to settle everybody down, okay? You know, Zerubbabel Snow, who's Richard's favorite named person ever, right?

Richard It is. Zerubbabel, he's building temples in Jerusalem. It's a great name. It's got a great ring to it. It sounds, you can't say the name without sounding jowly. I love it.

Gerrit Yeah, no, yeah, it's great. Zerubbabel, he's a Democrat from Ohio. He's a Northern Democrat. So Fillmore is deliberately mixing and matching the people he points to these territories almost as a means of good faith. Look now, in point of fact, appointing people to the territories is really just a way to kind of salve people's problem, right? Because almost no one actually serves out their tenure in the territories. They're in the middle of nowhere and it's great that you're getting paid a large salary. But where are you going to spend it? On the nothing that's there? Nobody lives there, right? So people will go out. They'll realize how terrible it is. And most of them are politicians. And so they'll head back, you know. So when Brocchus arrives, now he's greeted, you know, with fanfare, people come and greet him. He actually gets sick crossing the plains and Latter-day Saint women take care of him to nurse him back to health.

Gerrit But Lemuel Brandebury and Broughton Harris, the two federal officials who were there at the speech, they decide that they're going to educate Brocchus on the fact that these Mormons are traitors. You should have been there for that 24th of July speech. They were saying all kinds of things. And this appears to be where Brocchus gets the idea that Brigham Young has said that Zachary Taylor is dead and in Hell. That from those 24th of July celebrations. Now, I know what you want to know. Whatever wants to hear, right? You want to hear what Perry Brocchus had to say, right? Desperately. He's told, at least, this is what he writes later, that he was told that one of these leading Latter-day Saints said, Zachary Taylor is dead and in Hell, and I am glad of it.

Gerrit Right? And they also claimed that Brigham Young said that any President of the United States who lists his finger against his people will die an untimely death and go to Hell. So that's the claim that's made. Now, I can't point to the record where Brigham Young says that, at least not yet. Now, we already referenced the fact, though, that Brigham Young will later certainly share some of those sentiments, right? In 1857, Zachary Taylor is referenced by Heber C. Kimball, who will say God knew that Zachary Taylor would strike against us and he sent him to Hell. Now, I know that sounds really harsh, but again, in 1857, there's an army marching to Utah that they think to exterminate the church. Why do they think that? Because the newspapers say they're coming to exterminate the war because the leader of the Democratic Party in 1857, Stephen A.

Gerrit Douglas is saying this, that this army is going to have to cut out the black cancer sore from this, from our Republic, this loathsome ulcer of Mormonism. That doesn't exactly sound like they're going to just have a tea party and, you know, swap ideas on Trinitarian theology. So, but those comments are later, right? Brocchus has decided that he's going to fix the unpatriotic aspect of these Latter Day Saints. And so he asks Brigham Young, I would, I hear you guys are having one of your church conferences. So it's a church conference in September. I would like to be able to speak at your church conference. Yeah. Now he tells Brigham Young, I've been tasked and he had been tasked. I've been tasked with raising money for the Washington Monument.

Gerrit The Washington Monument, if any of you have ever gone to DC, you can actually see in the Washington Monument, the different color of stones on the lower portion of the monument, right? And then they become more uniform as it goes up. That's because the idea for the Washington Monument was that every state and territory would each contribute their own giant block as part of everyone honoring the great George Washington. So he tells Brigham Young, we want to build this edifice to George Washington. Will you allow me to speak to the people to ask for that, you know, that and Brigham Young says yes. Now, again, when people are always talking about, Oh, Brigham Young, the tyrant, Joseph Smith, the tyrant. One of the weirdest things these tyrants do is they constantly let other people speak at their pulpit.

Gerrit That is not something that tyrants do, right? Joseph Goebbels isn't like, you know what? And now we'll hear from from Churchill. Churchill, I mean, that's not what you're getting from from Nazi Germany. So he allows him to do it. Now we are out of time, but you're not going to want to delete this podcast just because it's Dead and in Hell, part 75 or whatever it is next. Because what I'm going to share with you is something that you probably have not ever heard. And that is the shorthand transcript of what Perry Brocchus said in that meeting to the Latter Day Saints. Now here's a spoiler alert. What he says sets the world on fire and causes all kinds of problems between the Latter Day Saints and the federal government. So is that peaking your interest?

Richard That is peaking my interest. That's well done.

Gerrit I guarantee it's something that our leaders have not, that our listeners, our leaders, our leaders are sure they already know, but our listeners have probably not read. So thank you so much for joining us. I know this seems, maybe this seems tedious. Maybe you don't like it. I get excited about it because knowing who you are and where your faith comes from, it matters when people are constantly attacking you for your faith. You know, just like Daniel H. Wells shared in his 24th of July celebration, we don't have to pretend that our ancestors weren't killed and murdered and driven from the United States. And we can still be loyal to the government. You can actually do both. You can be loyal to the government and also not tarnish the memory of the people who were butchered and were murdered at Hons Mill and in the Battle of Nauvoo and those who died along the plains.

Gerrit And so when I'm going through difficult times, I was asked this once, you know, what do you do when you're having difficult times? I mean, first of all, none of my times are anywhere near as difficult as any of these people ever, it's not even close. But studying the faith of Latter-day Saints who went through all kinds of trials and suffering, and like Abraham didn't balk, who lost everything multiple times, who had no explanation, no one patting them on the head to say, oh, this is why this happened. And they didn't stop believing. And they just continued to believe. And that's why studying Latter-day Saint history is so powerful, I think, for me, and hopefully for you. Someday we'll move on to other topics and spend all kinds of time on, I don't know, how we know God has a body.

Gerrit Look, we'll do that. Don't worry. We're going to do that. We're going to talk about that. We're going to talk about whether or not BYU beats Miami on Thanksgiving in basketball. We will talk about those things, but I would say to any of you, if you are really struggling, if you are really having a hard time because you're suffering, if Thanksgiving is hard for you to come to terms with because you don't feel like you have something to be thankful for, I urge you to study the faith of the women and the men who came before you, who went through horrific trials and they maintain their faith. They are inspirations to us. And we can spend all kinds of time making fun of them over the fact that they aren't as enlightened as we are and they didn't understand how disease worked the way we do. But I'll tell you what they did figure out. They figured out how to believe even when things were terrible, even when the nation is arrayed against them.

Gerrit So next time we will talk about Perry Brocchus. We will make sure to spell his name correctly, unlike some early Latter Day Saints. And we will also see you then. So take care everybody.

Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth Podcast hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDuc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.

Dead and in Hell Part 7

Chapters

Transcript

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D&C 135

John 4:24 (identified, not cited on air)

Joseph Smith, King Follett sermon (1844)

Joseph Smith, 1843 discourse answering a sectarian priest

Colossians 2:9 (identified, not cited on air)

Joseph Smith, discourse of March 9, 1841 (Joseph Smith Papers)

Truman Madsen's lecture cassettes on Joseph Smith

D&C 101:2-5

Willard Richards's record of Joseph Smith correcting William O. Clark's preaching

Joseph Smith letter from Liberty Jail, 1839

Daniel H. Wells, Pioneer Day oration, July 24, 1851

Daniel H. Wells, Pioneer Day oration, closing

Perry Brocchus's later account of what he was told about the Pioneer Day speeches

Heber C. Kimball, 1857 remark on Zachary Taylor

Stephen A. Douglas, 1857 speech on Mormonism

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