But the problem is everyone's dead and in hell. And until we get out of dead and in hell, until we get out of Catholic purgatory, until we get prayed out of this, we're stuck.
Standard of Truth · Season 5 · Episode 50 · 1:02:50
Dead and NOT in Hell, Alvin Smith
Joseph Smith saw his brother Alvin in the celestial kingdom in 1836 and marveled, because every revelation he had so far said Alvin needed baptism to get there; the vision stayed out of the scriptures until 1981.
Press play above. The page follows along.
The question ·
Holly has an ancestor named Talitha Cumi-Garlic, or Ajo, if it's Spanish, I don't know.
Nathan and Holly (listeners)
Squeezing in a recording before a fireside, Gerrit takes a break from who's dead and in hell to talk about someone who isn't: Alvin Smith. He explains how Alvin died after being given calomel, how a Presbyterian minister implied he was in hell, and how D&C 76 brought Joseph some comfort but still required baptism. In 1836 Joseph saw Alvin in the celestial kingdom, which led to the doctrine of baptism for the dead, and the revelation became D&C 137 in 1981. Then Nathan writes while his wife Holly is in labor, asking whether her ancestor Talitha Cumi Garlick was really baptized by Joseph Smith; Gerrit finds it plausible but unprovable, and shares her later letter to George A. Smith.
Who comes upAlvin SmithJoseph SmithHyrum SmithLucy Mack SmithTalitha Cumi GarlickWilliam AveryGeorge A. Smith
Now playing · 0:38
Forgot the name
Gerrit forgets the podcast's name while rushing to a fireside.
Chapters
Tap a chapter to jump thereTranscript
292 moments · tap a time to play from thereIntro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise, and humor.
Intro Welcome to the Standard of Truth Podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDuc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the life and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the Church with faith, expertise, and humor.
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Dr. Richard LeDuc. Just moments ago, as I tried to start the recording, I forgot the name of our podcast, which demonstrates the level of stress that I'm operating under, as I'm trying to shoehorn this recording in just before I go to a fireside. And well, let's face it, none of that really matters. It's the Big 12 Championship game, and that's what's on my mind. Richard, how are you doing?
Gerrit Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat, and I'm joined by my friend, Dr. Richard LeDuc. Just moments ago, as I tried to start the recording, I forgot the name of our podcast, which demonstrates the level of stress that I'm operating under, as I'm trying to shoehorn this recording in just before I go to a fireside. And well, let's face it, none of that really matters. It's the Big 12 Championship game, and that's what's on my mind. Richard, how are you doing?
Richard Good, Gerrit. We opened at 13.5 point dogs. Now we're only 12.5 point dogs, as people are hitting BYU hard and moving that line, which is very exciting, as we are the epitome of OLI, outside looking in on the playoff right now.
Richard Good, Gerrit. We opened at 13.5 point dogs. Now we're only 12.5 point dogs, as people are hitting BYU hard and moving that line, which is very exciting, as we are the epitome of OLI, outside looking in on the playoff right now.
Gerrit Yeah, I love how strength of schedule and strength of record matters, unless you're not in the SEC or Big Ten, then it doesn't matter at all. It's meaningless.
Gerrit Yeah, I love how strength of schedule and strength of record matters, unless you're not in the SEC or Big Ten, then it doesn't matter at all. It's meaningless.
Richard Or Notre Dame.
Richard Or Notre Dame.
Gerrit Well, Notre Dame, yeah, Notre Dame.
Gerrit Well, Notre Dame, yeah, Notre Dame.
Richard Notre Dame's claim to fame. Is there two big losses?
Richard Notre Dame's claim to fame. Is there two big losses?
Gerrit Yeah, hey, we barely lost this person.
Gerrit Yeah, hey, we barely lost this person.
Richard Okay. The team, you brought this up in the pre-show. So the biggest fraud is Texas A&M.
Richard Okay. The team, you brought this up in the pre-show. So the biggest fraud is Texas A&M.
Gerrit Unbelievable. They played nothing but terrible teams. They finally play a good team with Rivalry Week against Texas and they get dominated. Just, it's dominated from the beginning to the end.
Gerrit Unbelievable. They played nothing but terrible teams. They finally play a good team with Rivalry Week against Texas and they get dominated. Just, it's dominated from the beginning to the end.
Richard Yeah, no, they didn't, I think-
Richard Yeah, no, they didn't, I think-
Gerrit But you know, that's what they're saying about BYU, is that you can't beat Texas Tech. You can't beat them twice. What good is to put you in the playoffs anyway? You'll just have to play them a third time and lose to them a third time.
Gerrit But you know, that's what they're saying about BYU, is that you can't beat Texas Tech. You can't beat them twice. What good is to put you in the playoffs anyway? You'll just have to play them a third time and lose to them a third time.
Richard One of my favorite things about all of college football is the idea of, well, you beat this team. You can go all the way back, do you know what I mean? Transference to the extreme. So you have, Texas gets boat raced by Alabama. Alabama gets boat raced by Florida State. Florida State doesn't qualify for a bowl.
Richard One of my favorite things about all of college football is the idea of, well, you beat this team. You can go all the way back, do you know what I mean? Transference to the extreme. So you have, Texas gets boat raced by Alabama. Alabama gets boat raced by Florida State. Florida State doesn't qualify for a bowl.
Gerrit Yeah, and got boat raced by Florida in the year that Florida had.
Gerrit Yeah, and got boat raced by Florida in the year that Florida had.
Richard Who also beat Texas?
Richard Who also beat Texas?
Gerrit Who also beat Texas. It's funny because when you hear Texas fans talking about why Texas deserves to be in, they'll be like, are only two losses? And they'll put them up there. Are these good teams? Sure, we lost to Oklahoma. And then they'll like quietly say Florida. Because just the name Florida sounds like it's a good loss. Until they won last week against Florida State, it was a historically bad Florida team. They have not been this bad since 1979. That was the last time Florida was this bad. So it's not just another loss. It's the worst possible loss to the worst possible Florida team. The last time Florida was this bad, they were 0-10. That's how bad.
Gerrit Who also beat Texas. It's funny because when you hear Texas fans talking about why Texas deserves to be in, they'll be like, are only two losses? And they'll put them up there. Are these good teams? Sure, we lost to Oklahoma. And then they'll like quietly say Florida. Because just the name Florida sounds like it's a good loss. Until they won last week against Florida State, it was a historically bad Florida team. They have not been this bad since 1979. That was the last time Florida was this bad. So it's not just another loss. It's the worst possible loss to the worst possible Florida team. The last time Florida was this bad, they were 0-10. That's how bad.
Richard Right. The year I was born, Gerrit.
Richard Right. The year I was born, Gerrit.
Gerrit Yeah. And that's why they went 0-10. They were so distracted. They knew that they had an Oklahoma State Cowboy coming for them.
Gerrit Yeah. And that's why they went 0-10. They were so distracted. They knew that they had an Oklahoma State Cowboy coming for them.
Richard Well, go poke, speaking of historically bad. So now, we do have an email from someone in labor or the husband of someone in labor. But before we jump to it...
Richard Well, go poke, speaking of historically bad. So now, we do have an email from someone in labor or the husband of someone in labor. But before we jump to it...
Gerrit Which are all just lies, I think.
Gerrit Which are all just lies, I think.
Richard No, no. They sent a picture.
Richard No, no. They sent a picture.
Gerrit No, no. The pictures are AI generated. We've received probably 400 emails in the last two weeks.
Gerrit No, no. The pictures are AI generated. We've received probably 400 emails in the last two weeks.
Richard Oh, yeah. More than that, I think, actually.
Richard Oh, yeah. More than that, I think, actually.
Gerrit Yeah.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard Just missionaries alone.
Richard Just missionaries alone.
Gerrit It is many. And we are reading them all once again. We read all of them. I don't have the ability to eat, let alone respond to all of them. So thank you so much for sending them in. I'm sorry if you're someone who's, like, really hoping that we get it on the air. But the problem is everyone's dead and in hell. And until we get out of dead and in hell, until we get out of Catholic purgatory, until we get prayed out of this, we're stuck.
Gerrit It is many. And we are reading them all once again. We read all of them. I don't have the ability to eat, let alone respond to all of them. So thank you so much for sending them in. I'm sorry if you're someone who's, like, really hoping that we get it on the air. But the problem is everyone's dead and in hell. And until we get out of dead and in hell, until we get out of Catholic purgatory, until we get prayed out of this, we're stuck.
Richard So the hunger strike is to get Britain out of India. What's it for? What are you? What are you?
Richard So the hunger strike is to get Britain out of India. What's it for? What are you? What are you?
Gerrit I mean, I just said that once we get, once we get out of dead and in hell, we could go back to, you know, our usual, you know, topically relevant podcast.
Gerrit I mean, I just said that once we get, once we get out of dead and in hell, we could go back to, you know, our usual, you know, topically relevant podcast.
Richard Hey, at least this time we're talking about a football game that's in a couple of days versus in the past. Um, well, so, so Gerrit, quick on Kristy's corner, because just a quick highlight of one of your favorite references in all of the Doctrine and Covenants.
Richard Hey, at least this time we're talking about a football game that's in a couple of days versus in the past. Um, well, so, so Gerrit, quick on Kristy's corner, because just a quick highlight of one of your favorite references in all of the Doctrine and Covenants.
Gerrit Yeah, I, I love Doctrine and Covenants Section 137. Now this is something that's added to the Doctrine and Covenants in 1981. Okay. So sometimes we think of the Doctrine and Covenants as being closed. Um, and that's clearly not the case. In 1981, the Doctrine and Covenants was expanded by adding Section 137 and Section 138. Section 138, of course, the revelation that Joseph F. Smith receives Hyrum Smith's son of the, the afterlife in the spirit world. And of a similar note is this revelation that, you know, Joseph F. Smith's uncle has, Joseph Smith, where he sees the celestial kingdom. Now, this was something that was recorded in Joseph's journal. And so it's another one of those things that the reason why we have it is because it was recorded in Joseph's journal.
Gerrit Yeah, I, I love Doctrine and Covenants Section 137. Now this is something that's added to the Doctrine and Covenants in 1981. Okay. So sometimes we think of the Doctrine and Covenants as being closed. Um, and that's clearly not the case. In 1981, the Doctrine and Covenants was expanded by adding Section 137 and Section 138. Section 138, of course, the revelation that Joseph F. Smith receives Hyrum Smith's son of the, the afterlife in the spirit world. And of a similar note is this revelation that, you know, Joseph F. Smith's uncle has, Joseph Smith, where he sees the celestial kingdom. Now, this was something that was recorded in Joseph's journal. And so it's another one of those things that the reason why we have it is because it was recorded in Joseph's journal.
Gerrit But because it was recorded in Joseph's journal, it was not readily included in any books of scripture. It became known as we came to know Joseph Smith's journal, but it wasn't readily known outside of that. That's what I'm trying to say is that, you know, it was published, obviously, it was included in the history of the church. And to me, this is one of my favorite, favorite examples of Joseph Smith. Why? Well, clearly part of this revelation is is focusing on what what Joseph sees. Now, look, if you see things in the celestial kingdom, you're going to be pretty excited, right? I mean, he sees the beauty of the gate. He sees the blazing throne of God. He sees the father and the son. All those things. Great. He sees the streets that appear to be paved with gold. You know, there are no cats in America.
Gerrit But because it was recorded in Joseph's journal, it was not readily included in any books of scripture. It became known as we came to know Joseph Smith's journal, but it wasn't readily known outside of that. That's what I'm trying to say is that, you know, it was published, obviously, it was included in the history of the church. And to me, this is one of my favorite, favorite examples of Joseph Smith. Why? Well, clearly part of this revelation is is focusing on what what Joseph sees. Now, look, if you see things in the celestial kingdom, you're going to be pretty excited, right? I mean, he sees the beauty of the gate. He sees the blazing throne of God. He sees the father and the son. All those things. Great. He sees the streets that appear to be paved with gold. You know, there are no cats in America.
Richard Streets are full of cheese.
Richard Streets are full of cheese.
Gerrit Yeah, yeah. Fieffel Mauskowitz is there. No, but he sees this powerful vision of the celestial kingdom. Now, of course, this is Joseph Smith. Who's already seen the celestial kingdom. This is four years after the great vision, Doctrine and Covenant, Section 76. This is January of 1836, that Joseph has this vision of the celestial kingdom. I saw Father Adam and Abraham and my father and my mother, there, my brother Alvin that has long since slept. Now, this is sometimes troubled people because they'd be like, well, wait a minute. How did he see Joseph Smith Sr. there and Lucy Mac Smith? Because they're not dead. Clearly he is seeing a vision of the future.
Gerrit Yeah, yeah. Fieffel Mauskowitz is there. No, but he sees this powerful vision of the celestial kingdom. Now, of course, this is Joseph Smith. Who's already seen the celestial kingdom. This is four years after the great vision, Doctrine and Covenant, Section 76. This is January of 1836, that Joseph has this vision of the celestial kingdom. I saw Father Adam and Abraham and my father and my mother, there, my brother Alvin that has long since slept. Now, this is sometimes troubled people because they'd be like, well, wait a minute. How did he see Joseph Smith Sr. there and Lucy Mac Smith? Because they're not dead. Clearly he is seeing a vision of the future.
Gerrit He's seeing the future celestial kingdom. And so he sees Adam and Abraham, no problem. He sees his mom and dad, no problem. He sees Alvin and seeing Alvin there, I believe is a culmination of more than a decades long wrestle with God to know what happened to his brother. It is very clear from both what Lucy Mack Smith tells us about Joseph and Alvin's relationship, but also what Joseph tells us about his and Alvin's relationship, that Joseph absolutely loved his oldest brother. And Alvin apparently, again, we don't have good sources on this, but he apparently believed everything that Joseph said when Joseph had the First Vision.
Gerrit He's seeing the future celestial kingdom. And so he sees Adam and Abraham, no problem. He sees his mom and dad, no problem. He sees Alvin and seeing Alvin there, I believe is a culmination of more than a decades long wrestle with God to know what happened to his brother. It is very clear from both what Lucy Mack Smith tells us about Joseph and Alvin's relationship, but also what Joseph tells us about his and Alvin's relationship, that Joseph absolutely loved his oldest brother. And Alvin apparently, again, we don't have good sources on this, but he apparently believed everything that Joseph said when Joseph had the First Vision.
Gerrit And just after, only a couple of months after Joseph saw the angel, Alvin believed that Joseph had seen that angel, but then Alvin got sick. Alvin was treated by the 19th century doctors of the day. Now, in traditional medical practice back then, and every actual doctor listening to us right now, will be throwing their phone across the room, as if they are Josh listening to Calvinism. But they believed that essentially all disease was caused by an imbalance in your bodily humors, especially your blood. This is the reason why they bled people, because they believed the reason why you were sick is, you know, the reason why you have a fever, the reason why you're hot, is you have too much what they called hypertension.
Gerrit And just after, only a couple of months after Joseph saw the angel, Alvin believed that Joseph had seen that angel, but then Alvin got sick. Alvin was treated by the 19th century doctors of the day. Now, in traditional medical practice back then, and every actual doctor listening to us right now, will be throwing their phone across the room, as if they are Josh listening to Calvinism. But they believed that essentially all disease was caused by an imbalance in your bodily humors, especially your blood. This is the reason why they bled people, because they believed the reason why you were sick is, you know, the reason why you have a fever, the reason why you're hot, is you have too much what they called hypertension.
Gerrit Now, hypertension, obviously a problem today. There's probably some of you listening right now, like, hey, easy on hypertension not being a big deal. I get it, hypertension is a big deal, but it means something different. For them, what they meant by it was, you have too much blood in your body and that's what's causing your fever. That's what's making you sick. There's two things you can do. You can bleed someone to get that, you know, get this too much blood out. And also you want to make them vomit because you want to get all the nasty out. Now, look, it doesn't take, you know, a rocket scientist to see what happens when you, when you puke and to be like, I don't know what that is, but that's nasty. Right. So, so the idea is you've got some nasty in you and you've got to get it out. And so the doctor prescribes to Alvin a very common thing in the 19th century, and that is Calomel.
Gerrit Now, hypertension, obviously a problem today. There's probably some of you listening right now, like, hey, easy on hypertension not being a big deal. I get it, hypertension is a big deal, but it means something different. For them, what they meant by it was, you have too much blood in your body and that's what's causing your fever. That's what's making you sick. There's two things you can do. You can bleed someone to get that, you know, get this too much blood out. And also you want to make them vomit because you want to get all the nasty out. Now, look, it doesn't take, you know, a rocket scientist to see what happens when you, when you puke and to be like, I don't know what that is, but that's nasty. Right. So, so the idea is you've got some nasty in you and you've got to get it out. And so the doctor prescribes to Alvin a very common thing in the 19th century, and that is Calomel.
Gerrit Now, Calomel sounds like it's a type of lotion you might put on, but in fact, is powdered mercury. Now, I don't know much about science book. I don't know much about the French I took, but I also what I do know is that mercury is a poison. And it's stunning that what they prescribed to people was poison. And in fact, it makes Joseph Smith feel very mistrustful of the medical community for the remainder of his life. He'll reference Alvin being given so much mercury that it killed him, just lumps of Calomel. So it really bothers Joseph. And he felt the loss of Alvin very deeply.
Gerrit Now, Calomel sounds like it's a type of lotion you might put on, but in fact, is powdered mercury. Now, I don't know much about science book. I don't know much about the French I took, but I also what I do know is that mercury is a poison. And it's stunning that what they prescribed to people was poison. And in fact, it makes Joseph Smith feel very mistrustful of the medical community for the remainder of his life. He'll reference Alvin being given so much mercury that it killed him, just lumps of Calomel. So it really bothers Joseph. And he felt the loss of Alvin very deeply.
Gerrit So now you're Joseph Smith. You are told the plates exist. Your brother tragically dies right after that. You aren't able to get them. I mean, think about that. Your brother leaves the world with you still not able to get the plates because you tried to steal them when you first went to get them. Which, if anyone else is playing along at home, this is what not to do when God commands you to go do something. Especially when the angel says, Hey, Joseph, hey, hey, you're like gonna want to steal these plates because your family is super poor and it's gonna be super tempting because it's gold. But you need to not try to steal the plates. You got it? I got it. I'm not going to try to steal the plates. And then as he goes up to get the plates, I got to steal those. I mean, that was the first reaction. Look, Joseph has to grow and become who he is. So he didn't even have the plates yet. But Alvin died telling Joseph that he needed to do what the angel has said and get the record.
Gerrit So now you're Joseph Smith. You are told the plates exist. Your brother tragically dies right after that. You aren't able to get them. I mean, think about that. Your brother leaves the world with you still not able to get the plates because you tried to steal them when you first went to get them. Which, if anyone else is playing along at home, this is what not to do when God commands you to go do something. Especially when the angel says, Hey, Joseph, hey, hey, you're like gonna want to steal these plates because your family is super poor and it's gonna be super tempting because it's gold. But you need to not try to steal the plates. You got it? I got it. I'm not going to try to steal the plates. And then as he goes up to get the plates, I got to steal those. I mean, that was the first reaction. Look, Joseph has to grow and become who he is. So he didn't even have the plates yet. But Alvin died telling Joseph that he needed to do what the angel has said and get the record.
Gerrit So Alvin was certainly someone who was already following Joseph, as Joseph received revelations from God. But Joseph will learn from that Book of Mormon, and he'll learn from the other revelations that baptism is essential in order to go to heaven. Now, this is a very touchy subject with Alvin. Why? Well, we're told, William Smith tells us, that the preacher who preaches at Alvin's funeral decides that that's, you know, the best way to help a grieving family is to tell the Smiths that Alvin is burning in hell. Why? Well, because Alvin had never been baptized. Now, you might think, well, why in the world is a Presbyterian preacher telling somebody that someone's going to burn in hell because they've never been baptized?
Gerrit So Alvin was certainly someone who was already following Joseph, as Joseph received revelations from God. But Joseph will learn from that Book of Mormon, and he'll learn from the other revelations that baptism is essential in order to go to heaven. Now, this is a very touchy subject with Alvin. Why? Well, we're told, William Smith tells us, that the preacher who preaches at Alvin's funeral decides that that's, you know, the best way to help a grieving family is to tell the Smiths that Alvin is burning in hell. Why? Well, because Alvin had never been baptized. Now, you might think, well, why in the world is a Presbyterian preacher telling somebody that someone's going to burn in hell because they've never been baptized?
Gerrit Presbyterians don't believe baptism is essential for salvation, especially in Joseph's time. Presbyterians believe that salvation was based upon God predestined to give you the gift of faith, which gave you grace, which saved you from your sins. And that was nothing of yourself. So why is this preacher saying that Alvin is not going to heaven because he was never baptized? Because Presbyterians and other Calvinists, while they didn't believe baptism played any role in your salvation, they also believed the lack of baptism was a pretty good indicator that you must not have been given saving faith. If God had given you the grace necessary to save you, and you are an adult like Alvin was, because Alvin was even engaged, and you never chose to get baptized, well, then you must not have ever been chosen by God to be saved.
Gerrit Presbyterians don't believe baptism is essential for salvation, especially in Joseph's time. Presbyterians believe that salvation was based upon God predestined to give you the gift of faith, which gave you grace, which saved you from your sins. And that was nothing of yourself. So why is this preacher saying that Alvin is not going to heaven because he was never baptized? Because Presbyterians and other Calvinists, while they didn't believe baptism played any role in your salvation, they also believed the lack of baptism was a pretty good indicator that you must not have been given saving faith. If God had given you the grace necessary to save you, and you are an adult like Alvin was, because Alvin was even engaged, and you never chose to get baptized, well, then you must not have ever been chosen by God to be saved.
Gerrit I mean, think about it from reverse. Oh, yeah, God's given me the gift of faith. God's giving me saving grace. God has given me what it takes to go to heaven. I just won't get baptized even though I've had the ability to do it for a decade. No, believers get baptized. That's what they do. And so that minister probably taking a shot at the fact that a bunch of the Smith family hadn't joined the Presbyterian Church the same way that Lucy had is letting them know, hey, Alvin's probably not one of the elect that was chosen to be saved. If he was, he would have felt compelled to be baptized. Baptism doesn't save him. But the fact that he never felt compelled to be baptized probably demonstrates he wasn't actually saved. And look, almost no one's saved, but he's one of the ones that's also not saved. Again, that's probably not what a grieving family wants to hear at a funeral service.
Gerrit I mean, think about it from reverse. Oh, yeah, God's given me the gift of faith. God's giving me saving grace. God has given me what it takes to go to heaven. I just won't get baptized even though I've had the ability to do it for a decade. No, believers get baptized. That's what they do. And so that minister probably taking a shot at the fact that a bunch of the Smith family hadn't joined the Presbyterian Church the same way that Lucy had is letting them know, hey, Alvin's probably not one of the elect that was chosen to be saved. If he was, he would have felt compelled to be baptized. Baptism doesn't save him. But the fact that he never felt compelled to be baptized probably demonstrates he wasn't actually saved. And look, almost no one's saved, but he's one of the ones that's also not saved. Again, that's probably not what a grieving family wants to hear at a funeral service.
Gerrit I don't know if you've ever conducted one. Generally, you don't want to get up and give the life sketch and say, there's nothing good to say, I'm glad he's dead, and probably burning in hell. Speaking of dead and in hell.
Gerrit I don't know if you've ever conducted one. Generally, you don't want to get up and give the life sketch and say, there's nothing good to say, I'm glad he's dead, and probably burning in hell. Speaking of dead and in hell.
Richard Have you ever, by the way, when you were a missionary, did you ever, I had to conduct a funeral service once as a missionary. Did you ever have to do that?
Richard Have you ever, by the way, when you were a missionary, did you ever, I had to conduct a funeral service once as a missionary. Did you ever have to do that?
Gerrit I never did. I was asked to speak at one, but I was never conducting it.
Gerrit I never did. I was asked to speak at one, but I was never conducting it.
Richard Yeah. So this one, we were asked to conduct. The bishop was out of town. They asked us to do it. We didn't know who the person was. They had me and my companion sing. I'm a child of God. I can't sing. The family wasn't LDS for the most part. It was at a funeral home. It was very, very, very odd. It went about as well as you could imagine that that would have gone.
Richard Yeah. So this one, we were asked to conduct. The bishop was out of town. They asked us to do it. We didn't know who the person was. They had me and my companion sing. I'm a child of God. I can't sing. The family wasn't LDS for the most part. It was at a funeral home. It was very, very, very odd. It went about as well as you could imagine that that would have gone.
Gerrit So it was worse than 12.5 points against Texas Tech.
Gerrit So it was worse than 12.5 points against Texas Tech.
Richard They opened at 13.5. We're moving in the right direction.
Richard They opened at 13.5. We're moving in the right direction.
Gerrit Hopefully, that means the Gamblers are putting big money on that. And they've got some of the refs.
Gerrit Hopefully, that means the Gamblers are putting big money on that. And they've got some of the refs.
Richard Gerrit, that's exactly what that means. So do I think BYU is going to win? No. But good teams win and great teams cover, ultimately, Gerrit. And I think we cover.
Richard Gerrit, that's exactly what that means. So do I think BYU is going to win? No. But good teams win and great teams cover, ultimately, Gerrit. And I think we cover.
Gerrit Well, my hope is that the Gamblers have gotten to the referees and they make it possible for us to win. That's my hope.
Gerrit Well, my hope is that the Gamblers have gotten to the referees and they make it possible for us to win. That's my hope.
Richard By the way, I gotta say, it's great to have Kalani Sitake as the head coach of the BYU Cougars. The funniest thing I saw this week as Penn State tried to take him away was sending crumble cookies to the athletic director's office at Penn State. That's hilarious.
Richard By the way, I gotta say, it's great to have Kalani Sitake as the head coach of the BYU Cougars. The funniest thing I saw this week as Penn State tried to take him away was sending crumble cookies to the athletic director's office at Penn State. That's hilarious.
Gerrit Do you think Penn State knows what that means? Did someone have to explain that to them?
Gerrit Do you think Penn State knows what that means? Did someone have to explain that to them?
Richard Well, I don't know. First of all, shout out to Crumble, unofficial sponsor of this podcast.
Richard Well, I don't know. First of all, shout out to Crumble, unofficial sponsor of this podcast.
Gerrit Well, they would never sponsor us because they're a real company and their food is great.
Gerrit Well, they would never sponsor us because they're a real company and their food is great.
Richard Yeah, it's great enough that we can get off the sidelines, get in the game and help keep Kalani Sitake. But we do have those. I do love that story for what it's worth. It's one of my absolute favorites. We do have a labor alert email.
Richard Yeah, it's great enough that we can get off the sidelines, get in the game and help keep Kalani Sitake. But we do have those. I do love that story for what it's worth. It's one of my absolute favorites. We do have a labor alert email.
Gerrit Oh, I'm not done yet.
Gerrit Oh, I'm not done yet.
Richard I'm not dead yet.
Richard I'm not dead yet.
Gerrit Oh, you weren't yet.
Gerrit Oh, you weren't yet.
Richard I caught you off.
Gerrit You got to wait, man.
Richard I caught you off.
Gerrit You got to wait, man.
Richard Okay.
Richard Okay.
Gerrit I'm waxing poetic here.
Gerrit I'm waxing poetic here.
Richard Speaking of dead and in hell. Sorry. I cut you off. Go ahead.
Richard Speaking of dead and in hell. Sorry. I cut you off. Go ahead.
Gerrit Yeah. No, I'm the one who did that. I made it seem like this is what happens when you don't actually plan. I mean, obviously, I've done a ton of research, but Richard and I sit down, we're like, hey, how are you doing? Good. How are you doing? Hit record. Okay, here we go. I've got to go to a fireside in like 20 minutes. I'm going to show up late and I'm just going to put this podcast on a loop and be like, see if you get anything from this. Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that Joseph is very troubled by this from the very beginning that people are saying that Alvin's going to hell. Now, when Joseph receives Doctrine and Covenants, Section 76, I don't know that, I mean, it probably eliminated some of his trouble, right? Because it's in Doctrine and Covenants, Section 76 that Joseph learns, if he didn't already know, that eternal hellfire doesn't actually exist, that nobody's going to burn forever, certainly not Alvin.
Gerrit Yeah. No, I'm the one who did that. I made it seem like this is what happens when you don't actually plan. I mean, obviously, I've done a ton of research, but Richard and I sit down, we're like, hey, how are you doing? Good. How are you doing? Hit record. Okay, here we go. I've got to go to a fireside in like 20 minutes. I'm going to show up late and I'm just going to put this podcast on a loop and be like, see if you get anything from this. Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that Joseph is very troubled by this from the very beginning that people are saying that Alvin's going to hell. Now, when Joseph receives Doctrine and Covenants, Section 76, I don't know that, I mean, it probably eliminated some of his trouble, right? Because it's in Doctrine and Covenants, Section 76 that Joseph learns, if he didn't already know, that eternal hellfire doesn't actually exist, that nobody's going to burn forever, certainly not Alvin.
Gerrit But at the same time, Joseph learns, that if you aren't baptized into the Church of the Firstborn, that you cannot go to the celestial kingdom. I mean, we all know this, right? Because we've all had dozens of lessons on Doctrine and Covenants, Section 76, and the way that every single one of those lessons has ever gone in my entire life, is someone drawing a sun, and then someone drawing a moon, and then someone drawing a star, drawing a line underneath them, and starting to list off what it takes to get into each kingdom, or some variant of that. I mean, what about for you, Richard? Is that basically? Yeah, that's pretty much it. Oh, this is what you need to go to the celestial kingdom? This is the people who go to the terrestrial kingdom, right? I mean, because we're just listing off the requirements. And it's very clear. Doctrine and Covenants, section 76 says that you have to be baptized to go to the celestial kingdom.
Gerrit But at the same time, Joseph learns, that if you aren't baptized into the Church of the Firstborn, that you cannot go to the celestial kingdom. I mean, we all know this, right? Because we've all had dozens of lessons on Doctrine and Covenants, Section 76, and the way that every single one of those lessons has ever gone in my entire life, is someone drawing a sun, and then someone drawing a moon, and then someone drawing a star, drawing a line underneath them, and starting to list off what it takes to get into each kingdom, or some variant of that. I mean, what about for you, Richard? Is that basically? Yeah, that's pretty much it. Oh, this is what you need to go to the celestial kingdom? This is the people who go to the terrestrial kingdom, right? I mean, because we're just listing off the requirements. And it's very clear. Doctrine and Covenants, section 76 says that you have to be baptized to go to the celestial kingdom.
Gerrit So D&C 76 in 1832 probably assuaged Joseph's pain a certain degree because Alvin certainly was not in hell, even though he'd never been baptized. But he must be kept out of the celestial kingdom because he was never baptized by proper authority. The Book of Mormon says you have to be baptized. The Revelation Doctrine and Covenants, section 76 says you have to be baptized. And so that means if you were to ask Joseph Smith in 1833 or 1834 or 1835, imagine a conversation. There is no reference to this. But just imagine that Lucy Mack, his mother, has a conversation with Joseph and says, Joseph, where do you think Alvin is going to go? Because he died before he could get baptized. And Joseph apparently would have quoted Doctrine and Covenants, section 76 to her and said, well, he can't go to the celestial kingdom because you have to be baptized to go there.
Gerrit So D&C 76 in 1832 probably assuaged Joseph's pain a certain degree because Alvin certainly was not in hell, even though he'd never been baptized. But he must be kept out of the celestial kingdom because he was never baptized by proper authority. The Book of Mormon says you have to be baptized. The Revelation Doctrine and Covenants, section 76 says you have to be baptized. And so that means if you were to ask Joseph Smith in 1833 or 1834 or 1835, imagine a conversation. There is no reference to this. But just imagine that Lucy Mack, his mother, has a conversation with Joseph and says, Joseph, where do you think Alvin is going to go? Because he died before he could get baptized. And Joseph apparently would have quoted Doctrine and Covenants, section 76 to her and said, well, he can't go to the celestial kingdom because you have to be baptized to go there.
Gerrit How do we know that that's what Joseph thought all the way up until early 1836? Because when he sees Alvin in the celestial kingdom, his response is, I marvel how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom. Seeing as he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel a second time and had not been baptized for the remission of sins. Joseph, the way Joseph describes his own reaction is he is stunned. There's a couple of reasons why I love this. It demonstrates, first and foremost, that Joseph Smith continued to believe and be faithful, even though the gospel that he was receiving, the revelations he was giving, were not giving him personal comfort as to his own departed brother.
Gerrit How do we know that that's what Joseph thought all the way up until early 1836? Because when he sees Alvin in the celestial kingdom, his response is, I marvel how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom. Seeing as he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel a second time and had not been baptized for the remission of sins. Joseph, the way Joseph describes his own reaction is he is stunned. There's a couple of reasons why I love this. It demonstrates, first and foremost, that Joseph Smith continued to believe and be faithful, even though the gospel that he was receiving, the revelations he was giving, were not giving him personal comfort as to his own departed brother.
Gerrit In fact, it was the exact opposite. Again, I'm sure there was some comfort. Well, he's not burning in hell. But Joseph clearly believed that there was no way for Alvin to go to the celestial kingdom. Now again, for a Latter-day Saint today, very simple. There's like, well, of course, of course he could. Everyone knows that. I mean, yeah, everyone knows that because of this revelation and other revelations. We take for granted the knowledge that we have that is almost second nature to us. And the fact that we take it for granted causes us sometimes to take the gospel for granted. The voice, thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying, all who have died without a knowledge of this gospel who would have received it if they had been permitted to Terry shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God. Now God does not describe how that's possible.
Gerrit In fact, it was the exact opposite. Again, I'm sure there was some comfort. Well, he's not burning in hell. But Joseph clearly believed that there was no way for Alvin to go to the celestial kingdom. Now again, for a Latter-day Saint today, very simple. There's like, well, of course, of course he could. Everyone knows that. I mean, yeah, everyone knows that because of this revelation and other revelations. We take for granted the knowledge that we have that is almost second nature to us. And the fact that we take it for granted causes us sometimes to take the gospel for granted. The voice, thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying, all who have died without a knowledge of this gospel who would have received it if they had been permitted to Terry shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God. Now God does not describe how that's possible.
Gerrit So in 1836, this is what Joseph Smith and every member of the church is expected to believe that you absolutely have to be baptized to go to the celestial kingdom because a revelation from God says that. And also you absolutely don't have to be baptized to go to the celestial kingdom if you die without the knowledge of the gospel because a revelation from God says that. And it appears to be a contradiction. It appears that both of those things can't be true. It's not possible that Alvin can be in the celestial kingdom without being baptized. And at the same time, that baptism is a requirement. You're having a conversation with a Mormon in 1836. You Mormons believe that everyone has to be baptized to go to your celestial kingdom? Yes. Yes, we believe that. Well, what if like someone dies without hearing it? Well, we believe they can go too.
Gerrit So in 1836, this is what Joseph Smith and every member of the church is expected to believe that you absolutely have to be baptized to go to the celestial kingdom because a revelation from God says that. And also you absolutely don't have to be baptized to go to the celestial kingdom if you die without the knowledge of the gospel because a revelation from God says that. And it appears to be a contradiction. It appears that both of those things can't be true. It's not possible that Alvin can be in the celestial kingdom without being baptized. And at the same time, that baptism is a requirement. You're having a conversation with a Mormon in 1836. You Mormons believe that everyone has to be baptized to go to your celestial kingdom? Yes. Yes, we believe that. Well, what if like someone dies without hearing it? Well, we believe they can go too.
Gerrit Wait, so baptism isn't essential? I mean, no, it is. It's just it's essential some of the time. Well, so baptism isn't essential. No, it is. It's just it's not a lot of the time. Well, most of the time, it's not, but it's also is. I mean, think about the theological contradiction that that is. And Doctrine and Covenants, Section 137 does not explain it. We have people listening right now who believe they see doctrinal contradictions in things the church has taught. Well, it doesn't make sense how X can be true and Y can be true. And you have two ways to go when you see a contradiction in church theology. You can trust in the things that God has already revealed and patiently wait upon the Lord for further light to be given to his prophets.
Gerrit Wait, so baptism isn't essential? I mean, no, it is. It's just it's essential some of the time. Well, so baptism isn't essential. No, it is. It's just it's not a lot of the time. Well, most of the time, it's not, but it's also is. I mean, think about the theological contradiction that that is. And Doctrine and Covenants, Section 137 does not explain it. We have people listening right now who believe they see doctrinal contradictions in things the church has taught. Well, it doesn't make sense how X can be true and Y can be true. And you have two ways to go when you see a contradiction in church theology. You can trust in the things that God has already revealed and patiently wait upon the Lord for further light to be given to his prophets.
Gerrit Or you can say, if I don't have my answer resolved immediately, my problem resolved immediately, I'm going to stop believing. And Joseph takes the contradiction in stride. In some way, you absolutely have to be baptized to go to the celestial kingdom. And also, apparently, you don't have to be baptized to go to the celestial kingdom. Four years later, God is going to reveal to Joseph Smith the doctrine of baptism for the dead. And only then, only then is what was an apparent contradiction demonstrated to not be a contradiction at all. Everyone who goes to the celestial kingdom will be baptized in this life or the next. It is the same for everyone.
Gerrit Or you can say, if I don't have my answer resolved immediately, my problem resolved immediately, I'm going to stop believing. And Joseph takes the contradiction in stride. In some way, you absolutely have to be baptized to go to the celestial kingdom. And also, apparently, you don't have to be baptized to go to the celestial kingdom. Four years later, God is going to reveal to Joseph Smith the doctrine of baptism for the dead. And only then, only then is what was an apparent contradiction demonstrated to not be a contradiction at all. Everyone who goes to the celestial kingdom will be baptized in this life or the next. It is the same for everyone.
Gerrit It's just that those who didn't have an opportunity to be baptized will eventually receive the opportunity to be baptized. So I hope what you take away from doctrine of Covenant Section 137 is first, Joseph doesn't know everything. Joseph only knows whatever God has revealed to him. But you can't expect a prophet to know things before he knows them. That's not fair. It's not fair to expect a prophet to know things that you know now because they were revealed 30 years after a prophet lived. God gives here a little and there a little. Second, it's important to know that some questions that we don't have answers for. I have no doubt in the next life will be resolved in a similar way. Where we just didn't have the full picture. And if we had, it wouldn't seem like a contradiction.
Gerrit It's just that those who didn't have an opportunity to be baptized will eventually receive the opportunity to be baptized. So I hope what you take away from doctrine of Covenant Section 137 is first, Joseph doesn't know everything. Joseph only knows whatever God has revealed to him. But you can't expect a prophet to know things before he knows them. That's not fair. It's not fair to expect a prophet to know things that you know now because they were revealed 30 years after a prophet lived. God gives here a little and there a little. Second, it's important to know that some questions that we don't have answers for. I have no doubt in the next life will be resolved in a similar way. Where we just didn't have the full picture. And if we had, it wouldn't seem like a contradiction.
Gerrit It would make perfect sense. The same way that baptisms for the dead makes perfect sense now. But you had to have the doctrine in order to have the sense.
Gerrit It would make perfect sense. The same way that baptisms for the dead makes perfect sense now. But you had to have the doctrine in order to have the sense.
Richard So, I wonder, because, I mean, in Christianity, we often talk about some of the apparent contradictions that exist. I mean, the Trinity within mainstream Christianity is a perfect example of that. Was that something that was, I mean, that people talked about at the time, that apparent contradiction? I mean, heathen nations being redeemed and D&C 76? And, I mean, was that something that, or like, because sometimes people just accept some of these apparent contradictions, because it happens all the time in other parts of different parts of religion.
Richard So, I wonder, because, I mean, in Christianity, we often talk about some of the apparent contradictions that exist. I mean, the Trinity within mainstream Christianity is a perfect example of that. Was that something that was, I mean, that people talked about at the time, that apparent contradiction? I mean, heathen nations being redeemed and D&C 76? And, I mean, was that something that, or like, because sometimes people just accept some of these apparent contradictions, because it happens all the time in other parts of different parts of religion.
Gerrit Yeah, we don't have record of individuals struggling with that contradiction, right? So we know that it exists, but we don't have a record of individuals struggling with that contradiction. In part, I don't know how widely spread Joseph shared this vision, because this is a personal thing that happens with him in the temple, and he has it recorded in his journal, but he isn't publishing his journal, right? So I don't know how widespread that knowledge is, but at least for Joseph himself, he has to believe a contradiction. He has to believe that baptism is essential for the celestial kingdom, except when it's not, and apparently that's most of the time.
Gerrit Yeah, we don't have record of individuals struggling with that contradiction, right? So we know that it exists, but we don't have a record of individuals struggling with that contradiction. In part, I don't know how widely spread Joseph shared this vision, because this is a personal thing that happens with him in the temple, and he has it recorded in his journal, but he isn't publishing his journal, right? So I don't know how widespread that knowledge is, but at least for Joseph himself, he has to believe a contradiction. He has to believe that baptism is essential for the celestial kingdom, except when it's not, and apparently that's most of the time.
Richard But then this is something that's more widely discussed and spread prior to 1981, I would imagine.
Richard But then this is something that's more widely discussed and spread prior to 1981, I would imagine.
Gerrit Oh, for sure. Joseph's Revelation gets published in Joseph Smith's history, right? So his journals get published, it gets quoted from. So this experience becomes widely known, and that's part of the reason why I think the decision was made to canonize. I mean, this is some of the most beautiful doctrine that's ever existed.
Gerrit Oh, for sure. Joseph's Revelation gets published in Joseph Smith's history, right? So his journals get published, it gets quoted from. So this experience becomes widely known, and that's part of the reason why I think the decision was made to canonize. I mean, this is some of the most beautiful doctrine that's ever existed.
Richard No question.
Richard No question.
Gerrit And it's included in the 1981 expansion of the Doctrine and Covenants. And so, you know, people sometimes ask, you know, do you think other sections will be out of the Doctrine and Covenants? Man, I hope so. I'm all over that. I'm like the opposite of a Protestant. I am not like a Bible, a Bible. There could be any more Bible. I'm like, I got all kinds of Joseph Smith teachings we could throw in here. I got tons of revelations. We got all kinds of stuff that I would love to see scripture. So that's probably why I'll never be on the scripture committee. Right? Does anyone have a proposal? It's like, this is 10,000 pages. I know. This is all amazing.
Gerrit And it's included in the 1981 expansion of the Doctrine and Covenants. And so, you know, people sometimes ask, you know, do you think other sections will be out of the Doctrine and Covenants? Man, I hope so. I'm all over that. I'm like the opposite of a Protestant. I am not like a Bible, a Bible. There could be any more Bible. I'm like, I got all kinds of Joseph Smith teachings we could throw in here. I got tons of revelations. We got all kinds of stuff that I would love to see scripture. So that's probably why I'll never be on the scripture committee. Right? Does anyone have a proposal? It's like, this is 10,000 pages. I know. This is all amazing.
Richard No. If you were on the committee, you'd just be like a third base coach, just waving everything in.
Richard No. If you were on the committee, you'd just be like a third base coach, just waving everything in.
Gerrit Yeah, everything. A guy hits a grounder to second, and I'm waving him from first to second. I mean, that's what I'm doing. I'm like, keep going, keep going. They're tagging him out on the way to first, and I'm telling them to keep going.
Gerrit Yeah, everything. A guy hits a grounder to second, and I'm waving him from first to second. I mean, that's what I'm doing. I'm like, keep going, keep going. They're tagging him out on the way to first, and I'm telling them to keep going.
Richard For what it's worth, we've had many episodes on dead and in hell. I think it's nice that this is, call it dead and not in hell.
Richard For what it's worth, we've had many episodes on dead and in hell. I think it's nice that this is, call it dead and not in hell.
Gerrit I think that that's dead and Alvin not in hell. Yeah, which Joseph already learned from D&C 76. But you can tell, I marveled how he could have an inheritance in that kingdom. So if you ask Joseph, is Alvin going to the celestial kingdom? Joseph would say no, he's going to the terrestrial kingdom because you have to be baptized. And Joseph isn't just being his own private Presbyterian there. God is the one who told him that you have to be baptized to go to the celestial kingdom. So, I mean, you know, Brigham Young is great at teaching that God gives us revelation here a little and there a little. And you might wonder, why didn't God just give Joseph the answer from the beginning? Why didn't he just have the angel Moroni the fifth time he came to tell Joseph to stop trying to steal the plates? Why didn't he just have him tell him? Hey, don't worry about Alvin.
Gerrit I think that that's dead and Alvin not in hell. Yeah, which Joseph already learned from D&C 76. But you can tell, I marveled how he could have an inheritance in that kingdom. So if you ask Joseph, is Alvin going to the celestial kingdom? Joseph would say no, he's going to the terrestrial kingdom because you have to be baptized. And Joseph isn't just being his own private Presbyterian there. God is the one who told him that you have to be baptized to go to the celestial kingdom. So, I mean, you know, Brigham Young is great at teaching that God gives us revelation here a little and there a little. And you might wonder, why didn't God just give Joseph the answer from the beginning? Why didn't he just have the angel Moroni the fifth time he came to tell Joseph to stop trying to steal the plates? Why didn't he just have him tell him? Hey, don't worry about Alvin.
Gerrit He's going to be fine. He's going to be fine. And I don't know. I don't know why God does the things he does, but I will say this. I believe that part of what made Joseph who Joseph was, is that he deeply cared about questions of the resurrection and the afterlife. And so, he was constantly asking God about it. And for all I know, had God revealed the Joseph Smith in 1828, don't worry, Alvin's fine, Joseph wouldn't have been asking the same questions that led to the great revelations he received. And I think that's applicable to all of us. I know there are some of you who are begging God to give you the answer to the question you want answered.
Gerrit He's going to be fine. He's going to be fine. And I don't know. I don't know why God does the things he does, but I will say this. I believe that part of what made Joseph who Joseph was, is that he deeply cared about questions of the resurrection and the afterlife. And so, he was constantly asking God about it. And for all I know, had God revealed the Joseph Smith in 1828, don't worry, Alvin's fine, Joseph wouldn't have been asking the same questions that led to the great revelations he received. And I think that's applicable to all of us. I know there are some of you who are begging God to give you the answer to the question you want answered.
Gerrit And it may not come in this life. I know it's frustrating. Look, imagine how frustrating it is for me when it's literally my job and I can't find an answer. I mean, it makes me into a failure that I can't find an answer. But I think that's where we need to trust that eventually we will. We'll know the truth of all things. So don't throw away your testimony because you haven't gotten an answer on a topic that you really want answered. Joseph Smith before you went a decade and a half more than that, not knowing the ultimate end of his brother. And that's with being the prophet, seer and revelator of God.
Gerrit And it may not come in this life. I know it's frustrating. Look, imagine how frustrating it is for me when it's literally my job and I can't find an answer. I mean, it makes me into a failure that I can't find an answer. But I think that's where we need to trust that eventually we will. We'll know the truth of all things. So don't throw away your testimony because you haven't gotten an answer on a topic that you really want answered. Joseph Smith before you went a decade and a half more than that, not knowing the ultimate end of his brother. And that's with being the prophet, seer and revelator of God.
Gerrit There are some things we won't have answered till after this life. So we need to focus on the things we do know and the things the Holy Spirit has revealed to us through revelation. And trust that God is our loving father, is going to do what's actually best for us. Anyway, well, that was way too long, Richard. This was the wrong thing to have in Kristy's corner.
Gerrit There are some things we won't have answered till after this life. So we need to focus on the things we do know and the things the Holy Spirit has revealed to us through revelation. And trust that God is our loving father, is going to do what's actually best for us. Anyway, well, that was way too long, Richard. This was the wrong thing to have in Kristy's corner.
Richard Well, no, I think it's just made an evolution of what the episode is. I have to say, I also love that, those verses in that section for that reason. It's a beautiful sentiment, the idea that, and even if Moroni did say Hiram is okay, how could he even comprehend what that would mean?
Richard Well, no, I think it's just made an evolution of what the episode is. I have to say, I also love that, those verses in that section for that reason. It's a beautiful sentiment, the idea that, and even if Moroni did say Hiram is okay, how could he even comprehend what that would mean?
Gerrit Yeah.
Gerrit Yeah.
Richard There was no way to. There's something about Abraham and Isaac and your willingness to move forward in faith on things, even when you don't know. I think we're all asked to do this. That's the main purpose of all of this.
Richard There was no way to. There's something about Abraham and Isaac and your willingness to move forward in faith on things, even when you don't know. I think we're all asked to do this. That's the main purpose of all of this.
Gerrit Yeah. And I know that's really hard. What's really hard is to just trust that God has our best interest, because we want answers for it, especially in the day and age we live in now. Well, I'm just going to ask Chad GPT that and I'm going to figure out what the answer is. And I better have an answer. And we don't, we honestly see it as part of our individual liberty, that we won't do anything unless we're told exactly why we're doing it. And what's interesting is the great prophets from history, they don't get an explanation. You know, why is Adam offering sacrifices?
Gerrit Yeah. And I know that's really hard. What's really hard is to just trust that God has our best interest, because we want answers for it, especially in the day and age we live in now. Well, I'm just going to ask Chad GPT that and I'm going to figure out what the answer is. And I better have an answer. And we don't, we honestly see it as part of our individual liberty, that we won't do anything unless we're told exactly why we're doing it. And what's interesting is the great prophets from history, they don't get an explanation. You know, why is Adam offering sacrifices?
Richard I don't know.
Richard I don't know.
Gerrit I don't know how long Adam was offering sacrifices. And he was doing it ignorantly. And he didn't, he didn't stop doing it. Well, this doesn't even make sense. I'm not going to do it. If you're not going to explain to me why I'm doing it, I'm just not going to do it. And you just see this over and over and over again, that part of the way that God refines us, part of the way that he takes the lump of clay that is me and starts to make it resemble some type of a pot shirt is by requiring me to follow in faith rather than telling me exactly why I'm being told to do the things I'm going to do. And that's really hard. And yet, it's what he asked of Abraham, right? He doesn't know why he's supposed to sacrifice Isaac.
Gerrit I don't know how long Adam was offering sacrifices. And he was doing it ignorantly. And he didn't, he didn't stop doing it. Well, this doesn't even make sense. I'm not going to do it. If you're not going to explain to me why I'm doing it, I'm just not going to do it. And you just see this over and over and over again, that part of the way that God refines us, part of the way that he takes the lump of clay that is me and starts to make it resemble some type of a pot shirt is by requiring me to follow in faith rather than telling me exactly why I'm being told to do the things I'm going to do. And that's really hard. And yet, it's what he asked of Abraham, right? He doesn't know why he's supposed to sacrifice Isaac.
Gerrit No explanation. It would have been a lot easier. I mean, what if God would have said, you need to take and sacrifice Isaac, but don't worry. I've already got a ram trapped in a thicket up there. When you go to actually complete the sacrifice, I'm going to have an angel come and stop you. It's going to be quite performative, actually. I need you to act as if you were going to complete the sacrifice, but don't worry, you're not actually going to do the sacrifice. Right. Well, that's not the same kind of test, is it? And you know, I think Joseph had to learn some more things through his early struggles. And all the members of the church did. I mean, we've talked about Amanda Barnes-Smith dozens of times on this podcast. Here is someone who has essentially everything taken from her because she follows a prophet. And if you want a powerful testimony, you read her testimony about her husband that was murdered by these Missouri murderers, by the state militia of Missouri.
Gerrit No explanation. It would have been a lot easier. I mean, what if God would have said, you need to take and sacrifice Isaac, but don't worry. I've already got a ram trapped in a thicket up there. When you go to actually complete the sacrifice, I'm going to have an angel come and stop you. It's going to be quite performative, actually. I need you to act as if you were going to complete the sacrifice, but don't worry, you're not actually going to do the sacrifice. Right. Well, that's not the same kind of test, is it? And you know, I think Joseph had to learn some more things through his early struggles. And all the members of the church did. I mean, we've talked about Amanda Barnes-Smith dozens of times on this podcast. Here is someone who has essentially everything taken from her because she follows a prophet. And if you want a powerful testimony, you read her testimony about her husband that was murdered by these Missouri murderers, by the state militia of Missouri.
Gerrit I felt the loss of my husband. But not as I would have felt if he would have apostatized because he died in the hopes of a glorious resurrection. Now, that is a woman with faith where she is obviously destroyed and distraught over the fact her husband was murdered and her son was murdered. But she believes so much in the gospel and she believes so much in the resurrection that if she had to choose between her husband apostatizing like so many other people around them were or him being murdered, she was happy that he at least died in the faith. Now that takes a kind of faith that I think is very difficult to get to, but it comes through sacrifice, it comes in giving away our own will and trusting in whatever God wants to do for us.
Gerrit I felt the loss of my husband. But not as I would have felt if he would have apostatized because he died in the hopes of a glorious resurrection. Now, that is a woman with faith where she is obviously destroyed and distraught over the fact her husband was murdered and her son was murdered. But she believes so much in the gospel and she believes so much in the resurrection that if she had to choose between her husband apostatizing like so many other people around them were or him being murdered, she was happy that he at least died in the faith. Now that takes a kind of faith that I think is very difficult to get to, but it comes through sacrifice, it comes in giving away our own will and trusting in whatever God wants to do for us.
Gerrit And accepting what is very difficult to accept. When the Lord says, in the world, you will have tribulations. Boy, that is really hard to accept. Everyone wants to find a way to avoid the horrors of this life. And we can mitigate them sometimes by following the gospel. But in other times, there's no mitigation at all. In Amanda Smith's case, her husband and son are murdered at Hons Mill literally because she's following the prophet and moving to Missouri because a revelation commanded them to move to Missouri. So I hope everyone listening that is struggling, whether it's with knowledge that you don't have, whether it's with unfair things that have happened to you, I hope when you read Doctrine and Covenants, Section 137, that it re-energizes your faith.
Gerrit And accepting what is very difficult to accept. When the Lord says, in the world, you will have tribulations. Boy, that is really hard to accept. Everyone wants to find a way to avoid the horrors of this life. And we can mitigate them sometimes by following the gospel. But in other times, there's no mitigation at all. In Amanda Smith's case, her husband and son are murdered at Hons Mill literally because she's following the prophet and moving to Missouri because a revelation commanded them to move to Missouri. So I hope everyone listening that is struggling, whether it's with knowledge that you don't have, whether it's with unfair things that have happened to you, I hope when you read Doctrine and Covenants, Section 137, that it re-energizes your faith.
Gerrit This is the Lord's Church. Everything is going to eventually be made right. And that's really hard when you're suffering, because when I'm suffering, I want it fixed right now. But we have a long history of believers who came before us, whose suffering never ended in this life, whose accounts were never balanced with the wicked being punished and the righteous getting away with all that was stolen from them. And that's why we have to look to the next life, because after the Lord tells them, in the world you will have tribulation, He then says, fear not, I have overcome the world. This life is not about this life. This life is about the next life. And that's what we have to keep coming back to, understanding the purpose of this life and why God has us here.
Gerrit This is the Lord's Church. Everything is going to eventually be made right. And that's really hard when you're suffering, because when I'm suffering, I want it fixed right now. But we have a long history of believers who came before us, whose suffering never ended in this life, whose accounts were never balanced with the wicked being punished and the righteous getting away with all that was stolen from them. And that's why we have to look to the next life, because after the Lord tells them, in the world you will have tribulation, He then says, fear not, I have overcome the world. This life is not about this life. This life is about the next life. And that's what we have to keep coming back to, understanding the purpose of this life and why God has us here.
Gerrit Now we had an email we probably should cover, right, Richard?
Gerrit Now we had an email we probably should cover, right, Richard?
Richard We do. We do, we do. We have an email we should cover. This comes to us from Nathan and Holly. Boomer Sooner. Hope the Standard of Truth be in labor and will read your email guarantee is still in effect. By the way, I did validate the picture that they sent. The email was sent to us after midnight on the 2nd of December. The picture was taken at 1120 on the 1st of December.
Richard We do. We do, we do. We have an email we should cover. This comes to us from Nathan and Holly. Boomer Sooner. Hope the Standard of Truth be in labor and will read your email guarantee is still in effect. By the way, I did validate the picture that they sent. The email was sent to us after midnight on the 2nd of December. The picture was taken at 1120 on the 1st of December.
Gerrit Well, that invalidates it. Hey, if we're not going to actually email the picture at the time, what are we even talking about here? The thing I'm saying is evidence is not- We're going to have people sending in pictures of their seven-year-old kids saying, hey, yeah, I wrote this email while I was in labor.
Gerrit Well, that invalidates it. Hey, if we're not going to actually email the picture at the time, what are we even talking about here? The thing I'm saying is evidence is not- We're going to have people sending in pictures of their seven-year-old kids saying, hey, yeah, I wrote this email while I was in labor.
Richard Well, that's a great point. Well, so I think that the email- No, you're right. You're right. The picture was- Yeah, it invalidates the whole thing. The whole thing's a lie.
Richard Well, that's a great point. Well, so I think that the email- No, you're right. You're right. The picture was- Yeah, it invalidates the whole thing. The whole thing's a lie.
Gerrit I feel like on a technicality-
Gerrit I feel like on a technicality-
Richard I do have it pulled up here.
Richard I do have it pulled up here.
Gerrit Yeah. On a technicality, we should toss this to the side, but okay.
Gerrit Yeah. On a technicality, we should toss this to the side, but okay.
Richard Well, so in fairness to Holly, it's Nathan's fault because she's in the- breathe, push, and she's like, Nathan, I need you to send this now. And he's, you know, he's, you know-
Richard Well, so in fairness to Holly, it's Nathan's fault because she's in the- breathe, push, and she's like, Nathan, I need you to send this now. And he's, you know, he's, you know-
Gerrit Well, he was probably watching some sporting event.
Gerrit Well, he was probably watching some sporting event.
Richard At midnight?
Richard At midnight?
Gerrit Yeah, Pac-12 after dark.
Gerrit Yeah, Pac-12 after dark.
Richard First of all, he's watching SEC action because, you know, boomer sooner.
Richard First of all, he's watching SEC action because, you know, boomer sooner.
Gerrit That's true.
Gerrit That's true.
Richard All right. So we'll read it and you make the decision whether you want to answer or not, because you're right. We're under no obligation.
Richard All right. So we'll read it and you make the decision whether you want to answer or not, because you're right. We're under no obligation.
Gerrit Yeah. I feel like, I feel like we're been playing fast and loose with this for a long time. And it, and you know, it trust a sooner to try to get one over on us. I mean, that's where you get your name, right? Go into the land rush beforehand, being a sooner.
Gerrit Yeah. I feel like, I feel like we're been playing fast and loose with this for a long time. And it, and you know, it trust a sooner to try to get one over on us. I mean, that's where you get your name, right? Go into the land rush beforehand, being a sooner.
Richard Yeah. You know what? That's right. Go pokes, Gerrit. So my super fan wife is literally in labor. This message is from both of us. She approved this. I'm typing fast. I mean, he's, he's typing as fast as he can. Okay.
Richard Yeah. You know what? That's right. Go pokes, Gerrit. So my super fan wife is literally in labor. This message is from both of us. She approved this. I'm typing fast. I mean, he's, he's typing as fast as he can. Okay.
Gerrit Okay. That's what he says.
Gerrit Okay. That's what he says.
Richard First, my wife would like to correct Gerrit Dirkmaat on the key point. Childbirth doesn't have to be miserable. She loves having babies. This is coming from Nathan. The short, the short labors are on the map.
Richard First, my wife would like to correct Gerrit Dirkmaat on the key point. Childbirth doesn't have to be miserable. She loves having babies. This is coming from Nathan. The short, the short labors are on the map.
Gerrit Nathan wrote all of this. Maybe it's his day later.
Gerrit Nathan wrote all of this. Maybe it's his day later.
Richard He's dictating short ones can be incredibly intense and risk-laden. She would know she's had for almost every one lasting about an hour. That's incredible. Flossing out an hour. My gosh, there's a lot of jealous women in the 20 hours. I think Becky's still in labor with Lily and she's 13. Anyway, we're, we're big fans of the podcast and of both of you as hosts, the banter, the surprisingly good gambling tips, and the history meets faith angle. Fantastic. Fun fact. I'm also a management PhD professor. Now, Gerrit, I don't know how familiar you are with the hierarchy in the business world from an academic perspective. Within history, I imagine, is there some sort of hierarchy within the industry, within the history department in terms of this type of history is more valuable or more prestigious?
Richard He's dictating short ones can be incredibly intense and risk-laden. She would know she's had for almost every one lasting about an hour. That's incredible. Flossing out an hour. My gosh, there's a lot of jealous women in the 20 hours. I think Becky's still in labor with Lily and she's 13. Anyway, we're, we're big fans of the podcast and of both of you as hosts, the banter, the surprisingly good gambling tips, and the history meets faith angle. Fantastic. Fun fact. I'm also a management PhD professor. Now, Gerrit, I don't know how familiar you are with the hierarchy in the business world from an academic perspective. Within history, I imagine, is there some sort of hierarchy within the industry, within the history department in terms of this type of history is more valuable or more prestigious?
Gerrit It depends on where you're at because different colleges specialize in different types of history, right? So if you are at a university that is specialized in, say, World War II history, well, then you'll have two or three professors that do World War II history. And then like the guy who does like ancient China, he's like sitting by himself, you know, in the cafeteria like, hey, why don't you tell us more about the Tang dynasty? Yeah, I don't know if there's that kind of razzing going on, but in general, not really. I mean, there are different histories, so specialized by time period that usually it only really happens when a university specializes in a particular type of history.
Gerrit It depends on where you're at because different colleges specialize in different types of history, right? So if you are at a university that is specialized in, say, World War II history, well, then you'll have two or three professors that do World War II history. And then like the guy who does like ancient China, he's like sitting by himself, you know, in the cafeteria like, hey, why don't you tell us more about the Tang dynasty? Yeah, I don't know if there's that kind of razzing going on, but in general, not really. I mean, there are different histories, so specialized by time period that usually it only really happens when a university specializes in a particular type of history.
Richard So I'm being overly simplistic as I always am, but within business though, things are a little bit different. So there are certain disciplines where there's more theory, and because there's more theory, there's more general prestige. And so economics, finance, strategic management, these are the higher tiered in that space. Entrepreneurship, marketing, where I am, I'm the Yang dynasty.
Richard So I'm being overly simplistic as I always am, but within business though, things are a little bit different. So there are certain disciplines where there's more theory, and because there's more theory, there's more general prestige. And so economics, finance, strategic management, these are the higher tiered in that space. Entrepreneurship, marketing, where I am, I'm the Yang dynasty.
Gerrit So you're sitting by yourself in the cafeteria.
Gerrit So you're sitting by yourself in the cafeteria.
Richard Yeah, yeah. So he's in the management. I mean, that's a flex. That's well done.
Richard Yeah, yeah. So he's in the management. I mean, that's a flex. That's well done.
Gerrit Plus he went to Oklahoma instead of Oklahoma State. Oh!
Gerrit Plus he went to Oklahoma instead of Oklahoma State. Oh!
Richard He wants to collaborate. I would love to, you know, nothing I could actually offer. Another fun fact, I somehow get the premium content without ever having subscribed. Well, this guy's, he's clicking on all cylinders now.
Richard He wants to collaborate. I would love to, you know, nothing I could actually offer. Another fun fact, I somehow get the premium content without ever having subscribed. Well, this guy's, he's clicking on all cylinders now.
Gerrit So I don't know. So he's stolen our content? Well, whatever it is.
Gerrit So I don't know. So he's stolen our content? Well, whatever it is.
Richard Whatever, whatever the reason is harder is shoes. He somehow gets it on Spotify or wherever. On the Apple's podcast, whatever.
Richard Whatever, whatever the reason is harder is shoes. He somehow gets it on Spotify or wherever. On the Apple's podcast, whatever.
Gerrit Well, just know that when this goes, when this podcast goes off the air, Nathan, it's on you. When I can no longer pay the bills to put it up, it's on you.
Gerrit Well, just know that when this goes, when this podcast goes off the air, Nathan, it's on you. When I can no longer pay the bills to put it up, it's on you.
Richard I wish we had an epic history question for you, but we'll settle for a family history one. He does have an additional point here, but fully aware that Genrith might go full Dreamcrusher mode. Holly has an ancestor named Talitha Cumi-Garlic, or Ajo, if it's Spanish, I don't know. I think Ajo is garlic in Spanish. It's a town actually in Your Son's Mission, I believe. Oh. Ajo, Arizona. Oh, okay. Whose family had a miraculous conversion story. She supposedly refused baptism until she had met the prophet, and after she met him was baptized, possibly by Joseph Smith himself. Are you aware of any primary sources confirming or denying her baptism by Joseph, if not, no worries at all?
Richard I wish we had an epic history question for you, but we'll settle for a family history one. He does have an additional point here, but fully aware that Genrith might go full Dreamcrusher mode. Holly has an ancestor named Talitha Cumi-Garlic, or Ajo, if it's Spanish, I don't know. I think Ajo is garlic in Spanish. It's a town actually in Your Son's Mission, I believe. Oh. Ajo, Arizona. Oh, okay. Whose family had a miraculous conversion story. She supposedly refused baptism until she had met the prophet, and after she met him was baptized, possibly by Joseph Smith himself. Are you aware of any primary sources confirming or denying her baptism by Joseph, if not, no worries at all?
Gerrit Well, good question. Is that the end of the email?
Gerrit Well, good question. Is that the end of the email?
Richard No, there is a little bit more. Is that not an easy answer?
Richard No, there is a little bit more. Is that not an easy answer?
Gerrit I mean, it's so...
Gerrit I mean, it's so...
Richard Because the conclusion, I think, is going to be more faith-filled on your part, and so I wanted to break it up.
Richard Because the conclusion, I think, is going to be more faith-filled on your part, and so I wanted to break it up.
Gerrit So you're worried that I might crush them?
Gerrit So you're worried that I might crush them?
Richard Well, you're going to crush them, but you're going to come in strong at the end, and so that's why I divided it up the way it does.
Richard Well, you're going to crush them, but you're going to come in strong at the end, and so that's why I divided it up the way it does.
Gerrit Well, so, you know what's interesting? When it comes to individual baptism records, we just don't have very good ones from the Joseph Smith era. They don't keep membership records the same way they do today. And so to point that out is to say, it would actually be pretty rare if you had a Joseph Smith source in which Joseph Smith said, you know, today I went and baptized Bill. You know what I mean? Like I missed re-baptized. Yeah, re-baptized. Re-baptized. And the other thing is this time period that she's saying April 7th. Oh, well, I'm kind of giving away the lead. Her ancestor was... All right, I'm already looking at some sources. Her ancestor was baptized April 7th, 1840.
Gerrit Well, so, you know what's interesting? When it comes to individual baptism records, we just don't have very good ones from the Joseph Smith era. They don't keep membership records the same way they do today. And so to point that out is to say, it would actually be pretty rare if you had a Joseph Smith source in which Joseph Smith said, you know, today I went and baptized Bill. You know what I mean? Like I missed re-baptized. Yeah, re-baptized. Re-baptized. And the other thing is this time period that she's saying April 7th. Oh, well, I'm kind of giving away the lead. Her ancestor was... All right, I'm already looking at some sources. Her ancestor was baptized April 7th, 1840.
Gerrit That's actually dead center in the middle of when we have a break in Joseph's journals. So Joseph's journals go from 1832 to 1839, and then Joseph gets thrown in prison. No, I mean, that's part of that. And he doesn't really take up a daily journal with a scribe until 1841. So a lot of the things that happened in 1840, you're not going to get the same kind of daily entries of Joseph did this and then Joseph did that. Now, her other ancestor, I know, is interacting with Joseph Smith because in January, you know, he's signing multiple promissory notes. You know, David Garlick is signing multiple promissory notes. That's the father of Talitha in 1840.
Gerrit That's actually dead center in the middle of when we have a break in Joseph's journals. So Joseph's journals go from 1832 to 1839, and then Joseph gets thrown in prison. No, I mean, that's part of that. And he doesn't really take up a daily journal with a scribe until 1841. So a lot of the things that happened in 1840, you're not going to get the same kind of daily entries of Joseph did this and then Joseph did that. Now, her other ancestor, I know, is interacting with Joseph Smith because in January, you know, he's signing multiple promissory notes. You know, David Garlick is signing multiple promissory notes. That's the father of Talitha in 1840.
Gerrit But we don't have a Joseph Smith document where Joseph Smith says, oh, yeah, on April 7th, I went and baptized her. Now Joseph does give a sermon on April 7th of 1840, which makes it much more probable that that could be the case because often baptisms take place after public sermons. And where this is coming from is that her ancestor gives an autobiography, and that autobiography is TypeScript. I don't know how to verify it. I don't have an original copy of it, but this is what it says in the autobiography. She says, Brother Joseph Smith, the prophet had gone to the city of Washington, to lay the grievances of the gospel before the president of the United States.
Gerrit But we don't have a Joseph Smith document where Joseph Smith says, oh, yeah, on April 7th, I went and baptized her. Now Joseph does give a sermon on April 7th of 1840, which makes it much more probable that that could be the case because often baptisms take place after public sermons. And where this is coming from is that her ancestor gives an autobiography, and that autobiography is TypeScript. I don't know how to verify it. I don't have an original copy of it, but this is what it says in the autobiography. She says, Brother Joseph Smith, the prophet had gone to the city of Washington, to lay the grievances of the gospel before the president of the United States.
Gerrit We did not see him or hear him preach until he got back. I said I would not get baptized until I saw the prophet and heard him preach. I kept my word. I was baptized on April 7th, 1840 in the Mississippi River by Joseph Smith, the prophet. Well, it just so happens that that is the same day that Joseph does come back Well, not that he comes back, but what that he preaches. So those things certainly could fit together. There's no way for me to prove, you know, definitively. Oh, yes, this is exactly, you know, that that's exactly what happened. But at least in her autobiography, she provides a specific date and Joseph does preach on that date. And so very possibly, but without a daily journal, it becomes much more difficult to know. Now, I will tell you this, though. Your ancestor does have a really interesting letter that's in the church archives.
Gerrit We did not see him or hear him preach until he got back. I said I would not get baptized until I saw the prophet and heard him preach. I kept my word. I was baptized on April 7th, 1840 in the Mississippi River by Joseph Smith, the prophet. Well, it just so happens that that is the same day that Joseph does come back Well, not that he comes back, but what that he preaches. So those things certainly could fit together. There's no way for me to prove, you know, definitively. Oh, yes, this is exactly, you know, that that's exactly what happened. But at least in her autobiography, she provides a specific date and Joseph does preach on that date. And so very possibly, but without a daily journal, it becomes much more difficult to know. Now, I will tell you this, though. Your ancestor does have a really interesting letter that's in the church archives.
Gerrit And so she gets married to a guy by the name of William Avery. Well, Avery dies, I mean, just almost, I mean, like a year and a half after they get married. So she's a widow. And she, even though she's super young, she's a very young widow. Or I think her husband's like 21 when he dies, you know, or, you know, in 19th century terms, an old man. And so they come to Utah. And she actually will write a letter to apostle George A. Smith, asking for permission to be married as a plural wife to another, to a man who already has two wives. So this is the letter. Now, for those of you who are from Springville, it's written from Springville, Utah. Honorable sir, it is with peculiar feeling that I take my pen in hand to write a few lines to you.
Gerrit And so she gets married to a guy by the name of William Avery. Well, Avery dies, I mean, just almost, I mean, like a year and a half after they get married. So she's a widow. And she, even though she's super young, she's a very young widow. Or I think her husband's like 21 when he dies, you know, or, you know, in 19th century terms, an old man. And so they come to Utah. And she actually will write a letter to apostle George A. Smith, asking for permission to be married as a plural wife to another, to a man who already has two wives. So this is the letter. Now, for those of you who are from Springville, it's written from Springville, Utah. Honorable sir, it is with peculiar feeling that I take my pen in hand to write a few lines to you.
Gerrit And on a subject that has been on my mind for some time, I have lived as a widow six years and a half and have never saw a man till of late that I thought I could ever spend my time with and be happy. Boy, ain't that the truth. I couldn't find a man that I'd spend time with to be happy. There is a man in this place that is my choice. And he is willing to stand proxy for my husband. If it suits your mind, his name is Elam Chauncey. Or Chaney. Sorry, Chaney. Boy, look, I'm reading the cursive here and there's not a typescript and there's a big fold there. And also I don't have the ability to read. Elam Chaney, he has got two women. I believe he is a good man.
Gerrit And on a subject that has been on my mind for some time, I have lived as a widow six years and a half and have never saw a man till of late that I thought I could ever spend my time with and be happy. Boy, ain't that the truth. I couldn't find a man that I'd spend time with to be happy. There is a man in this place that is my choice. And he is willing to stand proxy for my husband. If it suits your mind, his name is Elam Chauncey. Or Chaney. Sorry, Chaney. Boy, look, I'm reading the cursive here and there's not a typescript and there's a big fold there. And also I don't have the ability to read. Elam Chaney, he has got two women. I believe he is a good man.
Gerrit If you have no objections to what I have spoke of, please give me an answer and oblige me. And there she signs it Talitha Avery, cause that's her married name. So it's honestly, it's very fascinating. You have an ancestor that's one of these people who really kind of bucks the trend of what people think is going on with plural marriages. She is actually asking for permission to join a plural marriage. And she seems to know exactly what she's doing and she does actually marry him. So I thought that was a pretty cool fact to share, at least, since I can't tell you whether or not I can verify that Joseph baptized her, there's no reason to think that she's not telling the truth about that in her autobiography and there's no reason to say that it's wrong. And then also on top of that, you have this really cool faithful letter that she sends to an apostle talking about her later decision to join in the practice of plural marriage.
Gerrit If you have no objections to what I have spoke of, please give me an answer and oblige me. And there she signs it Talitha Avery, cause that's her married name. So it's honestly, it's very fascinating. You have an ancestor that's one of these people who really kind of bucks the trend of what people think is going on with plural marriages. She is actually asking for permission to join a plural marriage. And she seems to know exactly what she's doing and she does actually marry him. So I thought that was a pretty cool fact to share, at least, since I can't tell you whether or not I can verify that Joseph baptized her, there's no reason to think that she's not telling the truth about that in her autobiography and there's no reason to say that it's wrong. And then also on top of that, you have this really cool faithful letter that she sends to an apostle talking about her later decision to join in the practice of plural marriage.
Gerrit So Richard, what's the good part, the final part of the email?
Gerrit So Richard, what's the good part, the final part of the email?
Richard Yeah, so the final part is actually on a personal note, but he talks about a kind of a wrestle that he has with faith and trying to find God more in his life and concludes the email. But the head-to-heart connection I deeply want still fills out of reach. I know this may be outside of your usual wheelhouse. My doubts aren't historical this time, but perhaps something from church history, a story about someone who is struggling similarly, or even something from your own lives can help me understand how to build a deeper and more enduring connection with God. I feel like the email is, I feel we all, I certainly felt that from time to time, in different phases of my life, closer to and further away, feeling that connection and not. Anyway, I thought that the last part of that email was especially profound and a beautiful sentiment, the desire to have that feeling.
Richard Yeah, so the final part is actually on a personal note, but he talks about a kind of a wrestle that he has with faith and trying to find God more in his life and concludes the email. But the head-to-heart connection I deeply want still fills out of reach. I know this may be outside of your usual wheelhouse. My doubts aren't historical this time, but perhaps something from church history, a story about someone who is struggling similarly, or even something from your own lives can help me understand how to build a deeper and more enduring connection with God. I feel like the email is, I feel we all, I certainly felt that from time to time, in different phases of my life, closer to and further away, feeling that connection and not. Anyway, I thought that the last part of that email was especially profound and a beautiful sentiment, the desire to have that feeling.
Gerrit Yeah, and you know, I think everyone feels that at times closer to God or further away from God. And that is a very difficult experience. It's difficult to know, you know, to have the knowledge of these things, but also to sometimes feel like God is distant. What I'm going to say is not definitive. Remember, I have no keys. I have, I barely have a podcast and not a very good one at that. And I just tried to throw your question off the air because of a technicality. Really, you shouldn't even be asking me anything at this point. But this is going to sound corny. So I don't mean it to be, and I don't know another way to say it. When I have had times in my life where I have felt like God is distant and that maybe my prayers are not a top priority, the thing that gets me close again, and I don't want this to sound self-aggrandizing or trite, but for me, the thing that makes me feel close again is trying to serve other people.
Gerrit Yeah, and you know, I think everyone feels that at times closer to God or further away from God. And that is a very difficult experience. It's difficult to know, you know, to have the knowledge of these things, but also to sometimes feel like God is distant. What I'm going to say is not definitive. Remember, I have no keys. I have, I barely have a podcast and not a very good one at that. And I just tried to throw your question off the air because of a technicality. Really, you shouldn't even be asking me anything at this point. But this is going to sound corny. So I don't mean it to be, and I don't know another way to say it. When I have had times in my life where I have felt like God is distant and that maybe my prayers are not a top priority, the thing that gets me close again, and I don't want this to sound self-aggrandizing or trite, but for me, the thing that makes me feel close again is trying to serve other people.
Gerrit And when I'm doing that service, I feel the love of God for them in the service I'm doing, and that helps me feel that connection. Now, obviously, I don't do it enough. I mean, I don't have the right answers. But at least in my life, when I feel like things are distant, if I deliberately go out of my way to try to go serve some of my fellow brothers and sisters, I start to feel that spark again. But that's just in my life.
Gerrit And when I'm doing that service, I feel the love of God for them in the service I'm doing, and that helps me feel that connection. Now, obviously, I don't do it enough. I mean, I don't have the right answers. But at least in my life, when I feel like things are distant, if I deliberately go out of my way to try to go serve some of my fellow brothers and sisters, I start to feel that spark again. But that's just in my life.
Richard I will say, Gerrit, for what it's worth, as slathered in cheese as you may feel that was, that was my exact thought. The times that I feel the closest aren't, I mean, not that scripture study isn't important and gospel study isn't, of course it is. But for me, it's the same. Part of the reason I feel like we feel that way in the temple is because it's the combination of that study and the service on behalf of other people that can't do it for themselves. But it's the exact same for me. That's when I feel the closest to the Savior when I'm, once a year, when I do something nice for somebody else.
Richard I will say, Gerrit, for what it's worth, as slathered in cheese as you may feel that was, that was my exact thought. The times that I feel the closest aren't, I mean, not that scripture study isn't important and gospel study isn't, of course it is. But for me, it's the same. Part of the reason I feel like we feel that way in the temple is because it's the combination of that study and the service on behalf of other people that can't do it for themselves. But it's the exact same for me. That's when I feel the closest to the Savior when I'm, once a year, when I do something nice for somebody else.
Gerrit Well, hopefully that helped answer. I'm sorry we didn't get to Dead in Hell Part 8 or whatever we're at right now. I think we're eight, yeah. Instead, we just talked about Doctrine and Covenants Section 137. But I do love that doctrine. I love that email. All joking aside, if you are suffering, if you are struggling, please, please, please don't give up. Please believe that your Savior loves you and that He already suffered all these things for you. So please take time to focus that you are a child of God, your Heavenly Father loves you, and this is God's kingdom on earth. Thanks so much for joining us.
Gerrit Well, hopefully that helped answer. I'm sorry we didn't get to Dead in Hell Part 8 or whatever we're at right now. I think we're eight, yeah. Instead, we just talked about Doctrine and Covenants Section 137. But I do love that doctrine. I love that email. All joking aside, if you are suffering, if you are struggling, please, please, please don't give up. Please believe that your Savior loves you and that He already suffered all these things for you. So please take time to focus that you are a child of God, your Heavenly Father loves you, and this is God's kingdom on earth. Thanks so much for joining us.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDuc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.
Intro Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast hosted by historian Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDuc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.
Quote board
Make a share card from any lineWhich, if anyone else is playing along at home, this is what not to do when God commands you to go do something.
Generally, you don't want to get up and give the life sketch and say, there's nothing good to say, I'm glad he's dead, and probably burning in hell.
We take for granted the knowledge that we have that is almost second nature to us. And the fact that we take it for granted causes us sometimes to take the gospel for granted.
It's not fair to expect a prophet to know things that you know now because they were revealed 30 years after a prophet lived.
But you had to have the doctrine in order to have the sense.
If you were on the committee, you'd just be like a third base coach, just waving everything in.
So don't throw away your testimony because you haven't gotten an answer on a topic that you really want answered.
This life is not about this life. This life is about the next life.
I have, I barely have a podcast and not a very good one at that.
Source shelf
14 sources cited on air · verses link to the scriptures, Joseph Smith’s documents to the Joseph Smith Papersrevelation
D&C 137 (added to the Doctrine and Covenants in 1981)
Recorded in Joseph's journal in January 1836 and published in his history, but not canonized until 1981 with D&C 138.
revelation
D&C 138
Joseph F. Smith's vision of the spirit world, added alongside 137 in 1981.
revelation
D&C 137:5
I saw Father Adam and Abraham and my father and my mother
Joseph sees his parents, still living, so it's a vision of the future celestial kingdom.
book
Lucy Mack Smith's history
Source for how close Joseph and Alvin were.
record
William Smith's account of Alvin's funeral sermon
The Presbyterian minister implied Alvin was in hell because he was never baptized.
revelation
D&C 76
Taught that no one burns forever, but that baptism is required for the celestial kingdom.
revelation
D&C 137:6
I marvel how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom.
Joseph's own reaction shows he believed Alvin couldn't be there.
revelation
D&C 137:7
all who have died without a knowledge of this gospel who would have received it if they had been permitted to Terry shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God.
The Lord's answer, without explaining how.
record
Amanda Barnes Smith on her husband's death at Haun's Mill (transcribed 'Hons Mill')
I felt the loss of my husband. But not as I would have felt if he would have apostatized
She would rather he died than apostatized, because he died in hope of the resurrection.
scripture
John 16:33 (identified, not cited on air)
In the world you will have tribulation, but the Lord has overcome the world.
record
David Garlick promissory notes signed with Joseph Smith, January 1840
Shows Talitha's father was dealing with Joseph that year.
sermon
Joseph Smith sermon, April 7, 1840
Joseph preached that day, which makes a baptism by him after the sermon plausible.
book
Talitha Cumi Garlick, autobiography (typescript)
I was baptized on April 7th, 1840 in the Mississippi River by Joseph Smith, the prophet.
Gerrit can't verify it without an original but finds no reason to doubt it.
letter
Talitha Avery to George A. Smith, from Springville, Utah
I have lived as a widow six years and a half and have never saw a man till of late that I thought I could ever spend my time with and be happy.
A widow of six and a half years asks permission to become Elam Cheney's plural wife.
Episode quiz
Pass to stamp your passportQuestion 1 of 8Score 0
When was D&C 137 added to the Doctrine and Covenants?
Fun with Numbers
This episode, counted from its transcript1:02:50long
5.8 minbefore the topic starts
14sources read or named
7scripture passages
11different years mentioned
0dollar amounts said
From 1828 to 1981
Every year mentioned in the episode. Tap one to jump to it.
Putting numbers to words
All 8,816 words of the automatic transcript, counted against a word list for each theme. It shows how much a theme comes up, not what was said about it. See the lists
What this episode talks about more than usual
- Temples and ordinances55 mentions, 4.6 times the show’s usual rate
- Death and the afterlife32 mentions, 2.4 times the show’s usual rate
- Faith and prayer17 mentions, 1.6 times the show’s usual rate
Names said most
Joseph counts any Joseph.
Joseph 84Lucy Mack Smith 4Moroni 2
Signature words
Said often here and in few other episodes.
ancestor 7autobiography 5
More from this episode
Claim checkThings people say, and what the episode shows.
Claim check
What critics say, and what the episode foundA prophet should have known all along that people like Alvin could reach the celestial kingdom.
The Doctrine and Covenants is closed.
Women in plural marriage were always pressured into it.
Take it to classReady to use in a lesson or a talk.
Take it to class
Ready to copy into a lesson or a textJoseph Smith kept believing even when the revelations didn't comfort him about Alvin; the answer came years later.
D&C 137 looked like a contradiction (baptism is essential, yet Alvin is in the celestial kingdom) until baptism for the dead made sense of it: you had to have the doctrine to have the sense.
Don't throw away your testimony over a question you can't answer yet; some answers may not come in this life.
When God feels distant, try serving someone; both hosts say that's when they feel closest to him.
Banter binThe funniest moments in this episode.
Banter bin
The running jokes, for people who skip aheadDead and in Hell seriesA break for Alvin, 'dead and not in hell'; until they get 'prayed out' of Dead and in Hell, the mailbag is stuck, and the real Part 8 waits (4:26, 33:04, 33:13, 1:01:43).
Kristy's CornerA quick Kristy's Corner on D&C 137 that 'was the wrong thing to have in Kristy's corner' (5:28, 36:14).
The labor-email policyNathan's email came after midnight with a photo from 11:20 the night before; 'that invalidates it,' but they read it on a technicality, and trust a Sooner to get one over on them (19:58, 43:42, 44:13, 45:25).
Betting odds with a conscienceBYU opens as a 13.5-point dog to Texas Tech and moves to 12.5; 'good teams win and great teams cover' (1:10, 18:37, 18:46).
Oklahoma State and Florida's worst seasonFlorida hasn't been this bad since Richard was born, distracted by an Oklahoma State Cowboy coming for them; Nathan went to Oklahoma instead of Oklahoma State (3:58, 4:01, 48:35).
Doctor inflationA management PhD listener explains business-school prestige tiers; Richard's field is 'the Yang dynasty,' eating alone in the cafeteria (46:17, 47:59).
Third base coach of scriptureOn the scripture committee Gerrit would wave everything in, 10,000 pages of Joseph Smith (32:04, 32:42).
Crumbl, unofficial sponsorCrumbl cookies sent to Penn State to keep Kalani Sitake; 'they would never sponsor us because they're a real company' (19:04, 19:28).
The missionary funeralRichard had to conduct a stranger's funeral and sing 'I Am a Child of God' as a missionary (17:52, 18:07).
Gerrit the DreamcrusherNathan braces for 'Genrith' to go full Dreamcrusher on Holly's ancestor; Richard splits the email so Gerrit can come in strong at the end (49:19, 50:25).
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown MailbagSend Gerrit and Richard your question.
The Phebe Draper Palmer Brown Mailbag
Your question could be next week’s episodeQuestions from Litners drive a lot of episodes. Send yours. If it makes the show, Richard reads it on air.
General ConferenceGeneral Conference talks that cite a scripture read in this episode.
In General Conference
Talks from the latest General Conference that cite a scripture this episode reads or names on airOctober 2026 General Conference · cites D&C 76Come to the Lord in His Holy HouseElder Gerrit W. GongElder Gong lays out three doctrinal foundations for temple worship: eternal families, moral agency, and the Holy Spirit of Promise, which makes honored covenants binding.October 2026 General Conference · cites D&C 138The Hour of Your Mission Is ComeBishop Sean DouglasBishop Douglas thanks missionaries of every age and urges the rising generation to place full-time missionary service high on their list.
Summaries, themes and lessons for every talk are on What Did They Say?
Go deeperWhere to read more.
Go deeper
Deep dives the episode points towardAlvin Smith's death, the calomel treatment and 19th-century medicine's theory of humors (10:02).
Joseph's January 1836 Kirtland vision in his journal and how it became D&C 137 (6:55).
The 1840 revelation of baptism for the dead and how it resolved the Alvin question (27:56).
Talitha Cumi Garlick Avery's autobiography and her letter to George A. Smith (52:31, 54:37).
Calvinist views of baptism and election and why a Presbyterian minister would preach Alvin into hell (15:28).
SOT Litner · S5E50.